NationStates Jolt Archive

As much as in most of the world, that many can 'become' a citizen of a Nation simply by gaining the proper paperwork, the god-honest truth is that one is always that of the nation from where they were born

It was Your Motherland that gave you life, and so it should be to your motherland that you owe your life

I am Polish born, though my Father was East German, it was in Poland from whence I came and I take pride in my beloved motherland

who else here takes a fierce pride in their Nation?

In before OP gets bashed
Nasi górą ;p

Nation of Islam.

Representin' for the Reverend Doctor Farrakhan

I feel no specific pride to the country itself, nor do I feel as though I should be fiercely loyal to it. That said, I would call myself patriotic in a sense as I believe in being loyal to my countrymen.

Meh. If need be, I will fight for the freedom of my country, but my life can be given only to save life.
And I noticed that taking fierce pride in your nation usually doesn't go along well with taking to heart the bitter lessons learned by it in the past...

Well technically, if you want to go onto loyalty to countrymen, that kind of backs up my loyalty to all germans and soviets as we're all descended from Scandanavia anyway

Germans got the viking blood, soviets got more of the norwegian-style light brown hair-light brown eyes combo

that kind of backs up my loyalty to all germans and soviets

Glad to hear you're either still living before the 90s or you like councils.

Also, I take shame in being associated with the likes of you.

I am as proud of my country of origin as I am of the hospital I was born in, i.e. not at all.

Well Nipeng, My Poland has been invaded 3 times - by France, then Germany, then Russia, but i dont hold it against the French, Germans or Russians

my motherland didn't give me life

two horny 30 year olds did

and I curse them for it! *shakes fist at sky*

there's no reason to feel pride for the country you are a citizen just because that is where you came from. That should be based on how your country is run and what good it is doing for it's citizens.

There's absolutely no reason at all to feel pride about the color of your skin, hair and eyes. That makes no difference in the kind of person you are.

I'm going to try and gain citizenship of another country because I don't believe in such notions of tribalism.

My Grandparents are from India, I was born and raised in England. Don't have any fierce loyalty to any countries really though I do like where I'm at.

There's absolutely no reason at all to feel pride about the color of your skin, hair and eyes. That makes no difference in the kind of person you are.
Sure it does because we live in a soceity where people judge you and as humans we feel, either good or bad, depending on their judgements. It's extremely rare for someone to say, I don't care what the world thinks of me, period. It happens, but is very rare.

Germans got the viking blood, soviets got more of the norwegian-style light brown hair-light brown eyes combo
Norwegians were vikings you fool.:rolleyes:


Anyway. I beleive in patriotism and nationalism...but I also beleive that it is good for people to be well travelled and internationally aware. I don't have a big problem with dual citizenships, in fact I want one.

Yes Atlantian, i know Norwegians are of viking blood, but if i said Germans got the aryan blood of blond hair blue eyes, as oposed to soviet browns, i'd expect the tidal wave of abuse for saying the word Aryan

here comes abuse:::

Sure it does because we live in a soceity where people judge you and as humans we feel, either good or bad, depending on their judgements. It's extremely rare for someone to say, I don't care what the world thinks of me, period. It happens, but is very rare.

That is due to the strength of someones character and not their skin/eye/hair color.

I feel sorry for anyone who lets the judgment of others help them determine their self-worth.

It was Your Motherland that gave you life, and so it should be to your motherland that you owe your life

Really? I thought it was my Mother that gave me life. My Father too.

I don't recall that the "Motherland" ever changed my diapers, or, for that matter, conceived and gave birth to and raised me.

Well Sumamba, its called plastic surgery, and it means you feel sorry for possibly MILLIONS of insecure kids who go under the doctor's scalpel for a self-image helper

Yes Atlantian, i know Norwegians are of viking blood, but if i said Germans got the aryan blood of blond hair blue eyes, as oposed to soviet browns, i'd expect the tidal wave of abuse for saying the word Aryan

here comes abuse:::
First of all Aryan doesn't mean blonde hair and blue eyes...it means the indo-european tribal/language connection through between Europe through Persia and India....it has nothing to do with Vikings or Nordic people, really.

Second of all there are tonsssssss of Russians with blue eyes and with blonde hair and tons of Germans without.....

I'm abusing you because you sound like an idiot and arn't making any sense.

Explain yourself, if you will.

That is due to the strength of someones character and not their skin/eye/hair color.

I feel sorry for anyone who lets the judgment of others help them determine their self-worth.
Don't try to play the highground...all I'm saying is that soceity judges, physically. To say otherwise is to be unrealistic.

That's all I'm saying. Relax.

Well Sumamba, its called plastic surgery, and it means you feel sorry for possibly MILLIONS of insecure kids who go under the doctor's scalpel for a self-image helper

Are you suggesting there's something wrong with thinking this?

Yes Atlantian, i know Norwegians are of viking blood, but if i said Germans got the aryan blood of blond hair blue eyes, as oposed to soviet browns, i'd expect the tidal wave of abuse for saying the word Aryan

here comes abuse:::

No, because Aryan would, surprisingly, be more correct.

Except of course that "Aryan blood" and "Viking blood" don't define who is or isn't Scandinavian or German.

Well Sumamba, its called plastic surgery, and it means you feel sorry for possibly MILLIONS of insecure kids who go under the doctor's scalpel for a self-image helper


Yes, I do. I know people are cruel to those who don't look like the accepted standard of the glossy people in the magazines, but the ones getting made fun of should realize that it is the insecurities of the people mocking them that cause them to put others down. It's not easy for kids to understand that though. It's not easy for a lot of 'adults' either.

Don't try to play the highground...all I'm saying is that soceity judges, physically. To say otherwise is to be unrealistic.

That's all I'm saying. Relax.


I never said otherwise.

No Ifreann, because soon He'll just be adding me to his list of pity-party invitations when i get some done and he pats me on the shoulder and tells me he 'feels for me'

who else here takes a fierce pride in their Nation?Dual citizen with dual migrant background born in occupied territory. Patriotism simply because you were born there is silly. Patriotism because you like living there is not.

No Ifreann, because soon He'll just be adding me to his list of pity-party invitations when i get some done and he pats me on the shoulder and tells me he 'feels for me'


Poor poor Kirchensittenbach! :(:fluffle:

Don't worry, there will be people out there who accept you for who you truely are.

OOOOOOOO CANADA!
Our Home and Native Land
True Patri...

what?

goody, Sumamba invited me to his pity-party

is there cake?

yeah there are those who accept me the way i look, but as with all who want/get plastic surgery, its all about not liking ones self

but its not like im getting major stuff done, just a quick nose job

who else here takes a fierce pride in their Nation?

I take fierce pride in my Nehiyaw nation, which is embodied by the elders, the people, and our traditional lands. But I certainly don't hold to any notion of such membership making me superior to anyone else, and my notion of nation wouldn't conform to your conception of it anyway.

Hurdegaryp, im half Polish, half East German, both sides Communist

much as im what could be called a "Left Wing Radical" that i believe in strong points of the system without being a puritan communist.
I dont believe in systems where those who can prove their worth are held back while the weak are artificially pulled up to our same level

-------------------------
Neesika, its not about superiority, its about being proud of the unique gifts one has from their heritage
though, to put New Manvir up on a pedastool for a second, I have to say Her Canada is the superior for making TV shows with CGI characters

As much as in most of the world, that many can 'become' a citizen of a Nation simply by gaining the proper paperwork, the god-honest truth is that one is always that of the nation from where they were born

It was Your Motherland that gave you life, and so it should be to your motherland that you owe your life

I am Polish born, though my Father was East German, it was in Poland from whence I came and I take pride in my beloved motherland

who else here takes a fierce pride in their Nation?

See, this is why it's so great to be an American: whether or not we are really citizens isn't based on blood, but rather on whether or not we cling to the notion that all men are equally endowed with rights by virtue of their common humanity. It's subscription to the ideal that makes the citizen rather than heritage.

So you're born somewhere, good for you. It's not like it's something you had to do anything for, right? It makes more sense to be proud of something you did. Your origin can be a very interesting subject, but it's not something you have any control about when your parents do what has to be done for a new human being to come into existence.

Mind you, Kirchensittenbach showed in another thread to have a somewhat anti-semite disposition. Now I read about his nationalistic tendencies. Cute, real cute.

I am Polish born, though my Father was East German, it was in Poland from whence I came and I take pride in my beloved motherland

who else here takes a fierce pride in their Nation?

that kind of backs up my loyalty to all germans and soviets

lol wut?

*pokes Hamilay to read all posts and read that i said germans/soviets came from Scandanavia*

Ahahaha... no.

I've lived in four different countries in my life, and I have allegiance for none. Well, okay, maybe a bit for the UK (spent three weeks there), but not to the point of nationalism. :)

Hurdegaryp, im half Polish, half East German, both sides CommunistYou most assuredly are not East German. That country no longer exists.

Pride of Your People

I owe loyalty to Spain...










Or at least one Spaniard - Nanatsu
;)

I owe loyalty to none but myself.

I am slightly loyal to my country, but far more to my Religion, Political ideals, and family. In that order. My country is dead last on my list, but not compltely ignored.

As much as in most of the world, that many can 'become' a citizen of a Nation simply by gaining the proper paperwork, the god-honest truth is that one is always that of the nation from where they were born

It was Your Motherland that gave you life, and so it should be to your motherland that you owe your life

I am Polish born, though my Father was East German, it was in Poland from whence I came and I take pride in my beloved motherland

who else here takes a fierce pride in their Nation?

I do. There´s nothing better than being an Asturian, and being Spanish. My country is the best in every single aspect (except in it´s President).:p

It's threads like this one that make me lol @ humans.

It's threads like this one that make me lol @ humans.

That means, then, that you´re laughing at yourself too. Right?:rolleyes:

That means, then, that you´re laughing at yourself too. Right?:rolleyes:

Golly Jeepers Batman, you're on to something!

I am Polish born, though my Father was East German, it was in Poland from whence I came and I take pride in my beloved motherland

who else here takes a fierce pride in their Nation?

I'm Canadian, meaning my "nation" is a more obvious construction than most. I guess you could say I embrace a certain "civic" nationalism. I despise the monarchy, but I'm proud of the fact that we've peacefully integrated a diverse, cosmopolitan population into an affluent and relatively tolerant polity. The most "Canadian" experience I ever had was reading Dan Savage in a shawarma shop on Bank Street, in the shadow of the 99 names of Allah.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that "nationhood" as a matter of blood or belonging is a sham. "National pride" is really about embracing those people around you who got the proper paperwork. You don't get to choose where you're born, it's where you make your home that counts.

Here's the thing for me, and the reason why I disagree with the OPs post.

I am an American and born her in the United States. My parents came from Turkey and my entire extended family (which is enourmous) lives in Turkey. I was raised with Turkish culture and we always spoke Turkish in the house. It's a long and complicated story but the bottom line is that my life in America has sucked and been absolutely miserable. The only place and time I have found people who love me and an atmosphere I felt at home with was when I visited Istanbul.

I'm 18 now and there are some choices for me to make. Obviously I'll continue my higher education here but after that who knows? People I know here jokingly refer to me as the 'turk' and with everything that's been going on I've become more and more disenchanted with America and American society. There was a time when I was full of pride to be American but now I've realized I don't like being called an American anymore. Mainly because it makes me feel distanced from my friends and family in Turkey.

Feel free to respond or bash this post as much as you want, but by this point I've lost almost all pride I've had for America and being an American. I can attest that its probably because of un-normal circumstances but meh. National pride is little more than an artificial construct. What matters is being around the people you care about and who share similar customs and beliefs as you do.

Edit: being sleep deprived all week and being late right now,... meh w/e sleepy time..

Here's the thing for me, and the reason why I disagree with the OPs post.

I am an American and born her in the United States. My parents came from Turkey and my entire extended family (which is enourmous) lives in Turkey. I was raised with Turkish culture and we always spoke Turkish in the house. It's a long and complicated story but the bottom line is that my life in America has sucked and been absolutely miserable. The only place and time I have found people who love me and an atmosphere I felt at home with was when I visited Istanbul.

I'm 18 now and there are some choices for me to make. Obviously I'll continue my higher education here but after that who knows? People I know here jokingly refer to me as the 'turk' and with everything that's been going on I've become more and more disenchanted with America and American society. There was a time when I was full of pride to be American but now I've realized I don't like being called an American anymore. Mainly because it makes me feel distanced from my friends and family in Turkey.

Feel free to respond or bash this post as much as you want, but by this point I've lost almost all pride I've had for America and being an American. I can attest that its probably because of un-normal circumstances but meh. National pride is little more than an artificial construct. What matters is being around the people you care about and who share similar customs and beliefs as you do.

Edit: being sleep deprived all week and being late right now,... meh w/e sleepy time..

I support you. Your Turkish heritage is far better than being called an American. Plus, it gives you a strong identity of self, something Americans do not have because the US a giant melting pot.

It's a thorny issue, as I hold split loyalties in many ways, however I am still proud of the culture and traditions of the United Kingdom, though I'd say my religion and family come first, I am still proud of it. Time was when we built the first western university, the finest museums,the first computers. Our government stretches back over a thousand years and our capital is one of the greatest cities on the planet still inhabited today. We are not the greatest of nations, but we did get in the running, which is no small thing.

That doesn't mean, however, that other people are less worthy than my people. Every nation should have pride in what it does well, as a source of inspiration to the people to take their own culture to the greatest heights they can, rather than to drop into despondency and simply be jealous and spiteful of others, which is how many British people now feel about Europe...

As much as in most of the world, that many can 'become' a citizen of a Nation simply by gaining the proper paperwork, the god-honest truth is that one is always that of the nation from where they were born

It was Your Motherland that gave you life, and so it should be to your motherland that you owe your life

I am Polish born, though my Father was East German, it was in Poland from whence I came and I take pride in my beloved motherland

who else here takes a fierce pride in their Nation?

I'm sure there are Palestinians born in Israel who would disagree with you Sir.

I support you. Your Turkish heritage is far better than being called an American. Plus, it gives you a strong identity of self, something Americans do not have because the US a giant melting pot.
National pride is just another form of racism, as shown by the 1st sentence.

If you think the USA doesn't have a fiercely strong self identity, you have no idea. I'm Australian, and I can see the fierce national pride that is brainwashed in to American children by their culture.

As much as in most of the world, that many can 'become' a citizen of a Nation simply by gaining the proper paperwork, the god-honest truth is that one is always that of the nation from where they were born

It was Your Motherland that gave you life, and so it should be to your motherland that you owe your life

I am Polish born, though my Father was East German, it was in Poland from whence I came and I take pride in my beloved motherland

who else here takes a fierce pride in their Nation?

Huh? I don't owe my life to an artificial, arbitrary line on the ground.
I think it's rather odd that you think you do...

As much as in most of the world, that many can 'become' a citizen of a Nation simply by gaining the proper paperwork, the god-honest truth is that one is always that of the nation from where they were born

It was Your Motherland that gave you life, and so it should be to your motherland that you owe your life

I am Polish born, though my Father was East German, it was in Poland from whence I came and I take pride in my beloved motherland

who else here takes a fierce pride in their Nation?

Eh. My attitude, to steal from Rogers and Hammerstein:
"I don't say I'm no better than anybody else, but I'll be damned if I ain't just as good!"

I'm English, being ashamed and generally quite bitter is the single unifying trait of my people :)

Eh. My attitude, to steal from Rogers and Hammerstein:
"I don't say I'm no better than anybody else, but I'll be damned if I ain't just as good!"

what about those jerks that get all the girls :p

It was Your Motherland that gave you life, and so it should be to your motherland that you owe your life
My "motherland" is at war with itself about who to give itself to. National pride means nothing more to me than being pleased with the idea of self-segregation.

Ironic, I guess, given that I'll be a triple-citizen soon.

What exactly do I have to be proud of? I didn't do it. :p

Unlike the Great Glue War of '89. That was all me. :cool:

But... a country is a political idea, not the land itself. And... the land didn't birth me -- I wasn't pulled out of a cabbage patch. My mother did, and she is a citizen of the United States. I am a citizen of the United States and if I take pride in my country, it is because I choose to, not because I owe it.

As much as in most of the world, that many can 'become' a citizen of a Nation simply by gaining the proper paperwork, the god-honest truth is that one is always that of the nation from where they were born

It was Your Motherland that gave you life, and so it should be to your motherland that you owe your life

I am Polish born, though my Father was East German, it was in Poland from whence I came and I take pride in my beloved motherland

who else here takes a fierce pride in their Nation?

If only every other Pole took such pride in their "motherland" and fucked off back there eh?

hmmm, im seeing some good, and useful messages here

Groznyj - sounds like you found the great american dream - it goes away when you open your eyes to the real world, i am truly sorry that it sucks for you, but at least you now know the truths:
1] Americans alienate you if you dont surrender all your beliefs and adopt their way of life and culture
2] Much as the crybaby Romanians whine about how bad Turkey was to them hundreds of years ago, yours is still the better culture - live true to yourself

Nanatsu - yes, its better to be called most things other than being called an american, yes there are good americans in there, but those ones are the minority

Call To Power - bet your nation is kicking itself for using convicts to colonise the USA - its kind of like that old PC game starcraft, where a scientist used convicts off death row to fire into space to begin colonies, then when they rise to power, the convict colonies automatically begin wars against each other

I support you. Your Turkish heritage is far better than being called an American. Plus, it gives you a strong identity of self, something Americans do not have because the US a giant melting pot.

That's a pretty stupid thing to say. It's the fact that the US is a mix of many cultures that are able to cohabitate with relative peace is one of the things I take pride in. The world's nations are not made up of pure heterogeneous societies that never change nor integrate.

That said, I also agree with Groznyj. But not for the same, seemingly nationalist, reasons as you. If he feels he doesn't belong in the US, due to problems he's faced with those around him, and would rather be with the friends and family he has in Turkey? that's 100% his choice. It's not about being a pure blood or not. It's about living and interacting with those who understand you, and with whom you get along with.

Anyway, first time poster, long time lerker. Just felt like speaking up now. As per the topic. I have a self identity with my country. Blind loyalty to anything is foolish. But I think it's healthy to have a respect for your forefathers and for those who help to make the land you live in a better place for everyone. Though it just so happens the US has allot of influence, so it just gets extra scrutiny. :p

So nice to see that this thread was begun so that the original poster could declare which cultures of the responders are superior to one another, and not for the purpose of actual discussion.

So nice to see that this thread was begun so that the original poster could declare which cultures of the responders are superior to one another, and not for the purpose of actual discussion.

Don't forget the assumption that national identity = culture.

It was Your Motherland that gave you lifeNo, it was my mother; I didn't come crawling up from the mud.

and so it should be to your motherland that you owe your lifeWhy would I owe anything for that which I didn't ask for?

who else here takes a fierce pride in their Nation?I'm not one for fierceness, but there's few other places I'd want to live.

hmmm, im seeing some good, and useful messages here

Groznyj - sounds like you found the great american dream - it goes away when you open your eyes to the real world, i am truly sorry that it sucks for you, but at least you now know the truths:
1] Americans alienate you if you dont surrender all your beliefs and adopt their way of life and culture
2] Much as the crybaby Romanians whine about how bad Turkey was to them hundreds of years ago, yours is still the better culture - live true to yourself

Nanatsu - yes, its better to be called most things other than being called an american, yes there are good americans in there, but those ones are the minority

Call To Power - bet your nation is kicking itself for using convicts to colonise the USA - its kind of like that old PC game starcraft, where a scientist used convicts off death row to fire into space to begin colonies, then when they rise to power, the convict colonies automatically begin wars against each other

"Better culture"???

Oh wow... must be difficult talking out of your ass like that.

*pokes Hamilay to read all posts and read that i said germans/soviets came from Scandanavia*

You didn't get it the first time around, did you?

Germans and Soviets didn't come from Scandinavia. Germans are not vikings. Soviets are not Scandinavians.

I mean, if you're going to use regional denominators, you might as well learn where the heck they apply to.

I know for a fact that back in the 1160's that a Scandanavian cheif marched southwards and began the birth of Russia

Were you there?

I know for a fact that back in the 1160's that a Scandanavian cheif marched southwards and began the birth of RussiaYeah, and ever since then the people in that area which later became Russians were known as slaves, where the term Slav comes from (albeit not the modern English term).

I know for a fact that back in the 1160's that a Scandanavian cheif marched southwards and began the birth of Russia

I know for a fact that back in the 1160's that a Scandanavian cheif marched southwards and began the birth of Russia

True, the Rus.

The the Rus were a ruling elite that were eventually absorbed into the large slavic populations they ruled over.

Unlike the Great Glue War of '89. That was all me. :cool:

You were the bastard that created that sticky situation!

I sure hope you happy with yourself.:mad:

You were the bastard that created that sticky situation!

I sure hope you happy with yourself.:mad:

It was one of my finest hours. :cool:

It was one of my finest hours. :cool:Really? How high was the fine?

what about those jerks that get all the girls :p

They can have the girls; I'm only (in a general fashion) interested in men and in a specific fashion, interested in ONE man.
:D

Yeah, and ever since then the people in that area which later became Russians were known as slaves, where the term Slav comes from (albeit not the modern English term).

Other way around. Slave came from Slav.

What exactly do I have to be proud of? I didn't do it. :p

Unlike the Great Glue War of '89. That was all me. :cool:

Yus, but here you have the freedom of your own mudpit... and the freedom to laugh yourself silly at your three year old dousing proselytizers who look overly warm.

Call To Power - bet your nation is kicking itself for using convicts to colonise the USA - its kind of like that old PC game starcraft, where a scientist used convicts off death row to fire into space to begin colonies, then when they rise to power, the convict colonies automatically begin wars against each other

Excuse you, do you not know the difference between Australia and America?
Your opinions are your own, but at least get your facts straight.

Other way around. Slave came from Slav.Could be. Not from what I've heard, but could be.

So nice to see that this thread was begun so that the original poster could declare which cultures of the responders are superior to one another, and not for the purpose of actual discussion.

Seems so.

Excuse you, do you not know the difference between Australia and America?
That the Australian penal colony was named New South Wales as opposed to Georgia?

well as i dont care about gays, or the fact they go to hell when they die, i wont debate that one

/EOT (=end of thread)

That the Australian penal colony was named New South Wales as opposed to Georgia?

That's something I've never heard before, and I am having a hard time finding it on Google with "convicts colonizing United States of America". Could you give me a link?

well as i dont care about gays, or the fact they go to hell when they die, i wont debate that one

So are you trying to have offensive beliefs, or does it come naturally?

As much as in most of the world, that many can 'become' a citizen of a Nation simply by gaining the proper paperwork, the god-honest truth is that one is always that of the nation from where they were born

It was Your Motherland that gave you life, and so it should be to your motherland that you owe your life

I am Polish born, though my Father was East German, it was in Poland from whence I came and I take pride in my beloved motherland

who else here takes a fierce pride in their Nation?

Let's pull a hypothetical. Say a gay person was born in Iran, but ran to another country and got citizenship there because they didn't want to be killed. Do they owe their lives to their motherland?

well as i dont care about gays, or the fact they go to hell when they die, i wont debate that one

Even if you believe in God, only He knows His plan. It's not for humans to judge others.

It's also not what the Pope says: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4464113.stm He believes it is "inherently immoral" and a tendency toward evil, but does not say that gays go to hell.

That's something I've never heard before, and I am having a hard time finding it on Google with "convicts colonizing United States of America". Could you give me a link?Here you go. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penal_colony#British_Empire) For some strange reason, I'm not surprised that it gets ommitted regularly.

if they honestly confess their sins before it becomes too late, and accept god into their lives, they may be granted forgiveness and go to heaven

those that repent only after they know they are going to die (too late), or die without repenting, they go to hell

Congratulations on hijacking your own thread.

But out of sheer curiosity how did you reach the conclusion?

As much as in most of the world, that many can 'become' a citizen of a Nation simply by gaining the proper paperwork, the god-honest truth is that one is always that of the nation from where they were born

It was Your Motherland that gave you life, and so it should be to your motherland that you owe your life

I am Polish born, though my Father was East German, it was in Poland from whence I came and I take pride in my beloved motherland

who else here takes a fierce pride in their Nation?

First of all, I don't have a motherland. I have a father & mother, who I owe my birth to.

Second of all, you owe your life to nobody. Said nation more than likely didn't raise you, feed you, & protect you. You can certainly give your life for a country, you don't owe it.

well as i dont care about gays, or the fact they go to hell when they die, i wont debate that one

I think I see where this is going. For the record: No. No they don't.

if they honestly confess their sins before it becomes too late, and accept god into their lives, they may be granted forgiveness and go to heaven

those that repent only after they know they are going to die (too late), or die without repenting, they go to hell

if they honestly confess their sins before it becomes too late, and accept god into their lives, they may be granted forgiveness and go to heaven

those that repent only after they know they are going to die (too late), or die without repenting, they go to hell

I'm guessing you see how that's relevant to whether or not they owe their lives to the motherland. I don't so I'm hoping you can enlighten me.

Well if their motherland persecutes them im sure thats a clear sign it wants an abortion

Congratulations on hijacking your own thread.

But out of sheer curiosity how did you reach the conclusion?
If he were a monk, that would be an easy answer. They get the Abundant Step bonus feat at level 12, which helps immensely when jumping to conclusions...

(argh... too... much... OOTS...)

Here you go. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penal_colony#British_Empire) For some strange reason, I'm not surprised that it gets ommitted regularly.

You learn something new every day. However, much as with the case of Australia, how can anyone say that perhaps 60,000 people over 200 years ago within a nation that is now 300 million strong and with people from all over the world affects the way the nation's culture is now?

Also, would it be fair to guess that as another British colony on North America -- Canada had to put up with its jailbirds too? ;)

It's like saying that the Vikings are still raiding England and being paid their danegeld today.

Well if their motherland persecutes them im sure thats a clear sign it wants an abortion

Which is considered a sin by the church, yes?

Well if their motherland persecutes them im sure thats a clear sign it wants an abortion

...I'm not sure what conclusion you're leading up to. Does this mean that they owe mama country nutin', they should be good queers and just die already or what?

Seriously, cliffhangers suck.

If he were a monk, that would be an easy answer. They get the Abundant Step bonus feat at level 12, which helps immensely when jumping to conclusions...

(argh... too... much... OOTS...)

I think in this day and age, idiots get *absurdity* at level 1.

I think in this day and age, idiots get *absurdity* at level 1.
The problem is that some of them roll natural 20's. It's hard to tell what's what when you get a critical on a non-sequitur.

Incidentally, is it worth pointing out that in this threadjacking of the OP's there's actually a reasonable point? Namely that religious fundamentalism and nationalism have an unusual tendency to go hand in hand?

As much as in most of the world, that many can 'become' a citizen of a Nation simply by gaining the proper paperwork, the god-honest truth is that one is always that of the nation from where they were born

It was Your Motherland that gave you life, and so it should be to your motherland that you owe your life

I am Polish born, though my Father was East German, it was in Poland from whence I came and I take pride in my beloved motherland

who else here takes a fierce pride in their Nation?

Me.

I take Pride in Britain.

Yes it sucks.

Yet this green and pleasant land is my home, where I shall raise my children as good Subjects.

I am Born in Britain, though my Father was born in a Colony (as his father was in the forces) and I shall love this land till the day I draw my last breath of it's sweet air.

You learn something new every day. However, much as with the case of Australia, how can anyone say that perhaps 60,000 people over 200 years ago within a nation that is now 300 million strong and with people from all over the world affects the way the nation's culture is now?

Also, would it be fair to guess that as another British colony on North America -- Canada had to put up with its jailbirds too? ;)

It's like saying that the Vikings are still raiding England and being paid their danegeld today.Well, it was primarily Georgia that received convicts. And when that fell to the Americans, the British opted for Australia. Might have been due to a lack of plantations in Canada. :p

Lets hope it all ends like the movie V for Vendetta, where USA is a warzone and the brits sit around criticising themThe movie ends with the Fascist dictatorship being overthrown...

Lets hope it all ends like the movie V for Vendetta, where USA is a warzone and the brits sit around criticising them

Lets hope it all ends like the movie V for Vendetta, where USA is a warzone and the brits sit around criticising them

Good news.

We're there!

Spain is da bomb, y'all!!:D

Good news.

We're there!

Really? It's awfully quiet over here for a warzone.

Really? It's awfully quiet over here for a warzone.

Joke.

The Brits are doing their bit though!

Yeah, good times

The Brits can sit back with popcorn and watch the USa tear itself apart from the inside
its like a mix of reality TV with action movies

As much as in most of the world, that many can 'become' a citizen of a Nation simply by gaining the proper paperwork, the god-honest truth is that one is always that of the nation from where they were born

It was Your Motherland that gave you life, and so it should be to your motherland that you owe your life

I am Polish born, though my Father was East German, it was in Poland from whence I came and I take pride in my beloved motherland

who else here takes a fierce pride in their Nation?
patriot, n. One to whom the interests of a part seem superior to those of the whole. The dupe of statesmen and the tool of conquerors.

patriotism, n. Combustible rubbish ready to the torch of any one ambitious to illuminate his name.
In Dr. Johnson's famous dictionary patriotism is defined as the last resort of a scoundrel. With all due respect to an enlightened but inferior lexicographer I beg to submit that it is the first.

-The Devil's Dictionary.

As you can see from the above, I take no pride in the dirt that I "owe my life to"

Well if their motherland persecutes them im sure thats a clear sign it wants an abortion

You know, you just have to be the weirdest case of oedipus complex I've seen on here in a long time.

Does your mother know how much you appreciate her contribution to your existence, or do you only go on about how you were born by a whole country rather than a single woman on internet forums?

Me.

I take Pride in Britain.

Yes it sucks.

Yet this green and pleasant land is my home, where I shall raise my children as good Subjects.

I am Born in Britain, though my Father was born in a Colony (as his father was in the forces) and I shall love this land till the day I draw my last breath of it's sweet air.

You might show it some respect then by spelling its language correctly...

Lets hope it all ends like the movie V for Vendetta, where USA is a warzone and the brits sit around criticising them

What ends?

As much as in most of the world, that many can 'become' a citizen of a Nation simply by gaining the proper paperwork, the god-honest truth is that one is always that of the nation from where they were born

It was Your Motherland that gave you life, and so it should be to your motherland that you owe your life

I am Polish born, though my Father was East German, it was in Poland from whence I came and I take pride in my beloved motherland

who else here takes a fierce pride in their Nation?


I do. Proud American. It has, obviously, many problems, but I believe that it is a great nation at its core.

The end that the rest of the world is at peace, and we all point and laugh at USA

The end that the rest of the world is at peace, and we all point and laugh at USA

I think right now, everyone is pointing and laughing at your petty nationalism.

Top Reasons for American Pride:
28% Freedom to say whatever you want, like, "Ummm...uhhhh...hmm..."
14% Have flag, feel like waving something
12% Fear others will accuse them of being Communist
10% That song that goes "I'm proud to be an American" and then there's that
guitar part
4% President's Day Mattress Sale
2% Subtle imperialistic undertones of professional wrestling storylines
30% USA! USA! USA! Wooooooooooo!

From Our Dumb World, by the Onion.

I'd have to say that I'm part of the mattress sale group.

I do. Proud American. It has, obviously, many problems, but I believe that it is a great nation at its core.

My beliefs exactly. Not that the US is without problems, but it is a good country capable of improvement.

I find being so far from home that I have a bit more pride in the US, it's accomplishments, and culture(s) than I did when I was at home, but I also find that I see the warts far more clearly and don't particularly feel that I owe it anything or that it birthed me per se.

I celebrate my Italian heritage by being a good cook and getting pissed off easily.


I celebrate my Irish heritage by drinking myself into a stupor every weekend and getting pissed off easily.

I owe loyalty to none but myself.

^ What he said. ^

I know for a fact that back in the 1160's that a Scandanavian cheif marched southwards and began the birth of Russia

Russia isn't south of Scandinavia, by any stretch of the imagination. You fail again.

The end that the rest of the world is at peace, and we all point and laugh at USA

That's funny. A Pole talking about people pointing and laughing at a country...

Ze irony, ze irony.

Russia isn't south of Scandinavia, by any stretch of the imagination. You fail again.The supposed birthplace of the Russian nation, Kiev, however is.

National superinferiority complex - when you believe that your country is the best in the world and at the same time feel inferior because of your nationality. I invented this term on the spot.

Describes him very well, though.
Everybody who feels the need to keep a list on which culture is better than another would have to have serious issues about their own.

That's funny. A Pole talking about people pointing and laughing at a country...
That's just cruel. He's so stereotypical that he seems almost like a construct, and here you poke him right into the most vulnerable point of every stereotypical Pole - the national superinferiority complex*.
Bad, bad New Granada! I fling a dead cow at you!
National superinferiority complex - when you believe that your country is the best in the world and at the same time feel inferior because of your nationality. I invented this term on the spot.

Well technically, if you want to go onto loyalty to countrymen, that kind of backs up my loyalty to all germans and soviets as we're all descended from Scandanavia anyway

Germans got the viking blood, soviets got more of the norwegian-style light brown hair-light brown eyes combo

Ummmm... that's very very inaccurate.

it was by pure chance i was born in this country (see Rawls' work on the subject)

i therefore feel no particular pride for the entity called Britian or England. however, i do like certain aspects of this society and can be proud of them.


of course, when it comes to rugby i'll be violently supporting Wales (especially next week!) ;)

As much as in most of the world, that many can 'become' a citizen of a Nation simply by gaining the proper paperwork, the god-honest truth is that one is always that of the nation from where they were born

It was Your Motherland that gave you life, and so it should be to your motherland that you owe your life

I am Polish born, though my Father was East German, it was in Poland from whence I came and I take pride in my beloved motherland

who else here takes a fierce pride in their Nation?

Bwahahahah ohhh my! 'It was your Motherland that gave you life'.
Sweet, thanks for the laugh.

The supposed birthplace of the Russian nation, Kiev, however is.

Fair point, but I was talking to a person who thinks East Germany and the Soviet Union are still around. Same person also seems to think that Germans are vikings.

Fair point, but I was talking to a person who thinks East Germany and the Soviet Union are still around. Same person also seems to think that Germans are vikings.

http://submitresponse.co.uk/tumble/wp-content/uploads/2007/06/ralph-viking.jpg

Viking is a career choice, not a nationality.

Viking is a career choice, not a nationality.

Viking is a lifestyle, not a career choice.:D

I have Pride and I shall always have it.

It comes of Being taught politics by my grandparents.

As much as in most of the world, that many can 'become' a citizen of a Nation simply by gaining the proper paperwork, the god-honest truth is that one is always that of the nation from where they were born

It was Your Motherland that gave you life, and so it should be to your motherland that you owe your life

I am Polish born, though my Father was East German, it was in Poland from whence I came and I take pride in my beloved motherland

who else here takes a fierce pride in their Nation?

I would acknowledge more pride in the US, but apparently that's an unforgivable fascist offense on this forum.

I have Pride and I shall always have it.

It comes of Being taught politics by my grandparents.

Shame they didn't teach you spelling as well....

As much as in most of the world, that many can 'become' a citizen of a Nation simply by gaining the proper paperwork, the god-honest truth is that one is always that of the nation from where they were born

It was Your Motherland that gave you life, and so it should be to your motherland that you owe your life

I am Polish born, though my Father was East German, it was in Poland from whence I came and I take pride in my beloved motherland

who else here takes a fierce pride in their Nation?

I am not particularly proud about my motherland and I can't actually see how I own it my life.

Not that I do not like it, I actually like it very much, but I believe you can only take pride at your own achievements.

Yes Atlantian, i know Norwegians are of viking blood, but if i said Germans got the aryan blood of blond hair blue eyes, as oposed to soviet browns, i'd expect the tidal wave of abuse for saying the word Aryan

here comes abuse:::
But since I am not blond haired, it looks like I am no real citizens anyway :(

At the moment I'm not very proud of my country. My country is kind of acting like a douche lately, and I really wish it would grow up and get out of this bullying, stealing, rude adolescent phase that it is in right now.

This doesn't mean I don't like my country. I like it a lot. It's kind of like when my kid brother started puberty and was a total asshole for like a year and a half; he was still my brother, and I never stopped loving him, but I sure as fuck wasn't proud of him while he was being an asshole.

I would acknowledge more pride in the US, but apparently that's an unforgivable fascist offense on this forum.Maybe you just need a hug :fluffle:
At the moment I'm not very proud of my country. My country is kind of acting like a douche lately, and I really wish it would grow up and get out of this bullying, stealing, rude adolescent phase that it is in right now.

This doesn't mean I don't like my country. I like it a lot. It's kind of like when my kid brother started puberty and was a total asshole for like a year and a half; he was still my brother, and I never stopped loving him, but I sure as fuck wasn't proud of him while he was being an asshole.Sounds exactly like my little brother. Was yours the baby of the family as well? I've been wondering if that had anything to do with it as well.

At the moment I'm not very proud of my country. My country is kind of acting like a douche lately, and I really wish it would grow up and get out of this bullying, stealing, rude adolescent phase that it is in right now.

This doesn't mean I don't like my country. I like it a lot. It's kind of like when my kid brother started puberty and was a total asshole for like a year and a half; he was still my brother, and I never stopped loving him, but I sure as fuck wasn't proud of him while he was being an asshole.


Heh what are you saying here Bottle? America the worlds bratty teenage brother?

Heh what are you saying here Bottle? America the worlds bratty teenage brother?

She's not as down about the US as Obama's wife. Apparently, until just recently, Obama's wife believes that there's nothing the US has done in history that she could be proud of.

That said, I'm voting for Obama, since he's not his wife.

Yes Atlantian, i know Norwegians are of viking blood, but if i said Germans got the aryan blood of blond hair blue eyes, as oposed to soviet browns, i'd expect the tidal wave of abuse for saying the word Aryan

here comes abuse:::

I will not abuse you verbally just because you used the word Aryan. The word isn't evil, it's the concept behind it that truly irritates. Although to me, that word is synonimous with Nazi Germany and the 'religion' of the Third Reich. But you using it isn't a reason for me to verbally abuse you.

I will not abuse you verbally just because you used the word Aryan. The word isn't evil, it's the concept behind it that truly irritates. Although to me, that word is synonimous with Nazi Germany and the 'religion' of the Third Reich. But you using it isn't a reason for me to verbally abuse you.

Because the word was used incorrectly by evil people. Aryanis widely held to have been used as an ethnic self-designation of the Proto-Indo-Iranians.. Hitler misused it to describe "pure" Germans. Nazis do not write the dictionaries, and someone does have a few problems if they look the Hitler for their definitions.

Because the word was used incorrectly by evil people. Aryan. Hitler misused it to describe "pure" Germans. Nazis do not write the dictionaries, and someone does have a few problems if they look the Hitler for their definitions.

Exactly.

Shame they didn't teach you spelling as well....

Don't you mean Grammar?

Because the word was used incorrectly by evil people. Aryan. Hitler misused it to describe "pure" Germans.

As a result, the word took on a new connotation it did not have previously. This is similar to how Nazis added a new slant to the Swastika and the Charlie Chaplin mustache. "Incorrect" or not.

, Nazis do not write the dictionaries, and someone does have a few problems if they look the Hitler for their definitions.

People have a few problems if they could, for example, hear someone talk about the Aryan ideals (as Kirschenshittonhisbach just did) and NOT think of Nazis. Or seeing someone with a Charlie Chaplin Mustache (now renamed the Hitler Mustache) or wearing a Swastika on their clothing somewhere. Or hearing someone discuss National Socialism.

As a result, the word took on a new connotation it did not have previously. This is similar to how Nazis added a new slant to the Swastika and the Charlie Chaplin mustache. "Incorrect" or not.



People have a few problems if they could, for example, hear someone talk about the Aryan ideals (as Kirschenshittonhisbach just did) and NOT think of Nazis. Or seeing someone with a Charlie Chaplin Mustache (now renamed the Hitler Mustache) or wearing a Swastika on their clothing somewhere. Or hearing someone discuss National Socialism.

Yes, but what if one were to call the mustache "the German mustache", and the Swastika "the German sign", and started using them as such?

Aside: I think anyone taking pride in their "race" is absurd.

Yes, but what if one were to call the mustache "the German mustache", and the Swastika "the German sign", and started using them as such?

Aside: I think anyone taking pride in their "race" is absurd.

Or even the Chaplin moustace, and the Hindu Sun Sign.

Aside: Yep yep.

Aside: I think anyone taking pride in their "race" is absurd.

Damn Right.

Race is as important to the Formation of Character as Bicycling is to the Survival of Fish.

Or even the Chaplin moustace, and the Hindu Sun Sign.

Or using Aryan with its original definition.

Damn Right.

Race is as important to the Formation of Character as Bicycling is to the Survival of Fish.

On top of that: Pride is one of the Seven Deadly Sins.

Race is as important to the Formation of Character as Bicycling is to the Survival of Fish.
*Crumples up blueprints for the Goldfish bike*

Pretty much. Not much of a surprise, though, considering we're being run by one.

But...but we helped everyone in WWII!




kindness, n. A brief preface to ten volumes of exaction.

-The Devil's Dictionary.

Or using Aryan with its original definition.

Indeed.

Heh what are you saying here Bottle? America the worlds bratty teenage brother?
Pretty much. Not much of a surprise, though, considering we're being run by one.

Yes, but what if one were to call the mustache "the German mustache", and the Swastika "the German sign", and started using them as such?

Why would anyone do that? Especially since neither is very accurate.

Certainly you can do that if you want, but you can't really erase the connotations words and ideas have with them. If you were to wear a Swastika on your clothing in public, people are going to think, "Nazi," no matter what you called it.

Aside: I think anyone taking pride in their "race" is absurd.

Indeed.

Why would anyone do that? Especially since neither is very accurate.

Yet, you propose to use the word "Aryan" in an inaccurate way.

Certainly you can do that if you want, but you can't really erase the connotations words and ideas have with them. If you were to wear a Swastika on your clothing in public, people are going to think, "Nazi," no matter what you called it.

What is your point?

So getting on anyone's case for associating the word "Aryan" with Nazism is unfair.

Just because the dictionary does it?

"...used in Nazism to designate a supposed master race of non-Jewish Caucasians usually having Nordic features."

Life is never fair.

Yet, you propose to use the word "Aryan" in an inaccurate way.

I propose nothing, just describe how it already is.

And in fact, it's not just a mere association, a connotation - it's part of the correct definition of the word.



Main Entry:
1Ary·an Listen to the pronunciation of 1Aryan Listen to the pronunciation of 1Aryan
Pronunciation:
\ˈa-rē-ən, ˈer-ē-; ˈär-yən\
Function:
adjective
Etymology:
Sanskrit ārya noble, belonging to an ancient people of northern India speaking an Indo-European dialect
Date:
1839

1: indo-european2 a: of or relating to a hypothetical ethnic type illustrated by or descended from early speakers of Indo-European languages b: nordic c—used in Nazism to designate a supposed master race of non-Jewish Caucasians usually having Nordic features3: of or relating to Indo-Iranian or its speakers


Nazis don't write dictionaries, but the dictionary, it is written and says what it says.

What is your point?

So getting on anyone's case for associating the word "Aryan" with Nazism is unfair.

Particularly in a case where the context shows the 'Nazi' definition of the word was being used by both Kirschenwhatever and by Nanatsu no Tsuki.

I propose nothing, just describe how it already is.

And in fact, it's not just a mere association, a connotation - it's part of the correct definition of the word.



Nazis don't write dictionaries, but the dictionary, it is written and says what it says.



So getting on anyone's case for associating the word "Aryan" with Nazism is unfair.

Particularly in a case where the context shows the 'Nazi' definition of the word was being used by both Kirschenwhatever and by Nanatsu no Tsuki.

It is unfair, true. But, unfortunately, people do associate the word "Aryan" with the Nazi and the Holocaust. Even if the word has no anti-semetic connotations by itself, sadly, it was used for such during Hitler's time.

Adolf Hitler even went so far as to try to craft a whole religious scheme surrounding the Aryan. He even sent a team of scientists to Tibet, to search for the mythical race and bring evidence that would support his Third Reich.
http://www.bede.org.uk/hitler.htm
http://freemasonrywatch.org/hitler_occult.html
http://archaeology.about.com/od/indusrivercivilizations/a/aryans.htm

Just because the dictionary does it?


The dictionary reflects the common, accepted uses of words in the language. It's the effect, not the cause. I'm sorry you seem to not like it. The language is not going to change simply because you don't like the definitions of words.

"...used in Nazism to designate a supposed master race of non-Jewish Caucasians usually having Nordic features."

Life is never fair.

Yes, used in Nazism, hence the association with Nazism is correct. (Particularly when someone actually uses the word in direct reference to a supposed master race.)

I didn't need the reiteration of my point but thanks anyway. :)

The dictionary reflects the common, accepted uses of words in the language. It's the effect, not the cause. I'm sorry you seem to not like it. The language is not going to change simply because you don't like the definitions of words.

Correct.

Yes, used in Nazism, hence the association with Nazism is correct.

But is it fair?


(Particularly when someone actually uses the word in direct reference to a supposed master race.)

Or a race they take pride in.

I didn't need the reiteration of my point but thanks anyway. :)

Point being that someone who takes pride in being Aryan and is only Aryan according to Hitler is using the word in a Nazi-fashion--at least, according to the dictionary you referenced.

Yus, but here you have the freedom of your own mudpit... and the freedom to laugh yourself silly at your three year old dousing proselytizers who look overly warm.

Oh, I love the USA. It's the perfect place to be me: Just free enough for me to get away with mischief without being imprisoned or shot, and just uptight enough to need it. :)

But is it fair?


It is both fair and reasonable to associate the word "aryan" when used in a context that clearly indicates the definition associated with nazism.


Point being that someone who takes pride in being Aryan and is only Aryan according to Hitler is using the word in a Nazi-fashion--at least, according to the dictionary you referenced.

Their USE of the word is not "Nazi-fashion." I am not being like a Nazi to use the word, if that's what you're trying to say. However, that person and anyone who discussed the subject with him would indeed be using that definition and not the others.

Ask the average Joe what 'Aryan' makes them think of. They'll be goosestepping in a heart beat...it's pure idiocy to argue otherwise.

(argh... too... much... OOTS...)

Impossible!

It is both fair and reasonable to associate the word "aryan" when used in a context that clearly indicates the definition associated with nazism.



Their USE of the word is not "Nazi-fashion." I am not being like a Nazi to use the word, if that's what you're trying to say. However, that person and anyone who discussed the subject with him would indeed be using that definition and not the others.

So, the "tidal wave of abuse" for having "Aryan pride" is not unreasonable?

Dis thread be doomed from the start.
*waves bye bye to the thread*
anyway pride in your people, ah now i see why it was doomed, you folks ever wonder this guy instigated this sort of thing for a laugh? Nevermind just my undiagnosed paranoia kicking in again, arg got other stuff to do, i'll mess about laters.

Ask the average Joe what 'Aryan' makes them think of. They'll be goosestepping in a heart beat...it's pure idiocy to argue otherwise.

Indeed. It doesn't matter that much what it meant before, or that the Swastika was just another symbol before. The word "Aryan" has been effectively ruined, as the most immediate subject it conjures in the mind is Nazism.

my 'motherland' didn't give me life. the random joining of an egg from my mother and a sperm from my father and some touch-and-go cell splitting did one cold november's night. my motherland has bugger all to do with my life. i can't even blame my drinking habits on it since those came from my mother also.

#Ireland! Ireland!
Together standing tall!
Shoulder, to shoulder!
We'll answer Ireland's Call!
We'll answer Ireland's Call!#

Bit of the Irish National Anthem :D Couldn't resist

I'm proud to be Human. Those damn space hutts have nothing on us!

So, the "tidal wave of abuse" for having "Aryan pride" is not unreasonable?

Nope, not in this context. Though I suppose it depends on what you mean by "abuse..."

Don't you mean Grammar?

No, definitely spelling. It's "grammar", not "Grammar".

Dis thread be doomed from the start.
*waves bye bye to the thread*
anyway pride in your people, ah now i see why it was doomed, you folks ever wonder this guy instigated this sort of thing for a laugh? Nevermind just my undiagnosed paranoia kicking in again, arg got other stuff to do, i'll mess about laters.

Umm if your paronia is undiagnosed, how come you know about it huh huh?

Umm if your paronia is undiagnosed, how come you know about it huh huh?

Mad Hatters is trapped in the Matrix. That's why he knows.;)

#Ireland! Ireland!
Together standing tall!
Shoulder, to shoulder!
We'll answer Ireland's Call!
We'll answer Ireland's Call!#

Bit of the Irish National Anthem :D Couldn't resist

That is not the Irish national anthem. Our national anthem is Amhran na bhFiann, not Ireland's Call. Try watching football instead of rugby now and then. Or even GAA.

That is not the Irish national anthem. Our national anthem is Amhran na bhFiann, not Ireland's Call. Try watching football instead of rugby now and then. Or even GAA.

Yeah! Besides 'Standing Tall', when many Irish are actualy quite, quite small!

Yeah! Besides 'Standing Tall', when many Irish are actualy quite, quite small!

Hey, that's what I like about this place : Things are at a good height for a small-ass like me :p

Nope, not in this context. Though I suppose it depends on what you mean by "abuse..."

I was quoting things Kirchensittenbach said. If you will go back you will see I trying to explain to him why the abuse for taking pride in being an "Aryan" would cause offense, and that there is nothing wrong with this.

I will go back to the original thread and answer: YES. I take a fierce pride in the United States of America. It is not a nationalistic pride, and it is not because I was born there.
I recognize that my nation can make has made, and is making mistakes, but the overall good accomplished by the USA far outweighs that.

Heheh care to name some of this good?

I will go back to the original thread and answer: YES. I take a fierce pride in the United States of America. It is not a nationalistic pride, and it is not because I was born there.
I recognize that my nation can make has made, and is making mistakes, but the overall good accomplished by the USA far outweighs that.

That is not the Irish national anthem. Our national anthem is Amhran na bhFiann, not Ireland's Call. Try watching football instead of rugby now and then. Or even GAA.

Yes, I know all about Amhran na bhFiann, that is the anthem of the Irish Republic and is also played at GAA matches, even if they are in the North. Ireland's Call is the anthem of the united Irish Nation so that 'God save the Queen' won't offend Northern Republicans and 'Amhran na bhFiann' won't offend Northern Unionists.

I picked it because I know the words as opposed to Amhran na bhFiann to which I don't know how to spell the words. Sing them, yes. Spell them, no

Heheh care to name some of this good?

Ditto!:D

Heheh care to name some of this good?

Rebuilding Japan and Europe after WWII.

Rebuilding Japan and Europe after WWII.

The U.S. killed nearly 240,000-280,000 Japanese non-combatants through bombings. I suppose we owed them something.

The U.S. killed nearly 240,000-280,000 Japanese non-combatants through bombings. I suppose we owed them something.

Pfft.

We didn't owe them shit.

We did it so they would have no reason to start a war 20 years down later.

Rebuilding Japan and Europe after WWII.
Read: capitalise on the ruined economies and infrastructures of Japan and Europe after WWII, set up the Bretton-Woods system and consolidate US fiscal dominance over the globe.

Read: capitalise on the ruined economies and infrastructures of Japan and Europe after WWII, set up the Bretton-Woods system and consolidate US fiscal dominance over the globe.

And any other nation would have acted differently?

Should the US have just left Europe and Asia in ruins? Maybe, but I'm sure only more bloodshed would have occurred a generation or two down the line...

Or the Soviets would have had a much larger sphere of influence than they did...

Pfft.

We didn't owe them shit.

From a conventional moral standpoint (which I see you do not ascribe to) we did.

We did it so they would have no reason to start a war 20 years down later.

We did it to ensure the government's capitulation.

And any other nation would have acted differently?
They may well have done so, and they would be as justly criticised.

Should the US have just left Europe and Asia in ruins?
So the choice is between ruined lands or Us dominance? Nice.

Or the Soviets would have had a much larger sphere of influence than they did...
Gotta get that bogeyman in there.

From a conventional moral standpoint (which I see you do not ascribe to) we did.


They lost a war they started. They didn't *deserve* anything.


We did it to ensure the government's capitulation.


That goes against what I said how? Also, so what? Don't nations that lose generally capitulate?

They may well have done so, and they would be as justly criticised.


So the choice is between ruined lands or Us dominance? Nice.


Gotta get that bogeyman in there.

Well it would have been hard for Europe and Japan to rebuild from scratch with no influx of US cash..

Would you have rather lived under the sphere of influence of the Soviet's or the Americans?

America didn't kill millions of its own citizens.

You choose.

They lost a war they started. They didn't *deserve* anything.

Do not confuse a population of a millions with a relatively small government and army. The people who started the war were not the hundreds of thousands of innocent men, women and children who were non-combatants. They did not ask for the war, nor did they fight in it.

That goes against what I said how? Also, so what? Don't nations that lose generally capitulate?
Indeed. I order to force a government to do what we say we butchered innocents. The pilots had to wear breath-masks to filter-out the smell of rotting flesh. This kind of behavior is unacceptable. At least we made some reparations, but they could hardly called good-deeds.

America didn't kill millions of its own citizens.

It did not seem to have trouble killing other nation's citizens, though.

Well it would have been hard for Europe and Japan to rebuild from scratch with no influx of US cash.
Once again: why is the choice between financial aid with the caveat that the US takes up global fiscal dominance, or no fiscal aid?

Would you have rather lived under the sphere of influence of the Soviet’s or the Americans?
*yawn*

I’ve already highlighted my displeasure at inane bogeyman arguments. Kindly take note.

Do not confuse a population of a millions with a relatively small government and army. The people who started the war were not the hundreds of thousands of innocent men, women and children who were non-combatants. They did not ask for the war, nor did they fight in it.


Indeed. I order to force a government to do what we say we butchered innocents. The pilots had to wear breath-masks to filter-out the smell of rotting flesh. This kind of behavior is unacceptable. At least we made some reparations, but they could hardly called good-deeds.

Without the Japanese fanatical support for the war they couldn't have carried on. The civilian deaths were tragic, yes, but necessary to end the war.

It did not seem to have trouble killing other nation's citizens, though.

Neither did the soviets. The US isn't perfect, but it has a lot less blood on its hands than the Soviets did.

Once again: why is the choice between financial aid with the caveat that the US takes up global fiscal dominance, or no fiscal aid?


*yawn*

I’ve already highlighted my displeasure at inane bogeyman arguments. Kindly take note.

What you propose then, just throwing money at Europe and Japan and not expecting anything in return? We helped them, and got some good out of it for ourselves to boot. Nothing wrong in that. Any other nation would have jumped at the same opportunity.

It isn't a bogeyman argument. It is a question.

Would you have rather lived under Soviets or Americans?

It was pretty much one or the other for a long time.

What you propose then, just throwing money at Europe and Japan and not expecting anything in return?
No, I propose setting up a financial system that doesn’t propagate American fiscal dominance over the globe; one that is fair to all; one that doesn't keep up the cycle of loan>debt>loan>debt the Bretton-Woods system has enforced.

No, I propose setting up a financial system that doesn’t propagate American fiscal dominance over the globe; one that is fair to all; one that doesn't keep up the cycle of loan>debt>loan>debt the Bretton-Woods system has enforced.

...But that wouldn't be in America's best interest, would it?

...But that wouldn't be in America's best interest, would it?

and maybe as the last true superpower it's time for america to do things in the best interest of the world, not just in the best interest of america

and maybe as the last true superpower it's time for america to do things in the best interest of the world, not just in the best interest of america

Right, because every other country is looking out for each other... :rolleyes:


Now if you had said: 'Its time for America to consider what is in the best interest of the world, not the best interest of America" I could agree with you.

Right, because every other country is looking out for each other... :rolleyes:

I'm sure you've heard the expression "lead by example?" That's what people in power who claim to be benevolent should do.


Now if you had said: 'Its time for America to consider what is in the best interest of the world, not the best interest of America" I could agree with you.

So you're fine with the US government considering things for the betterment of the world...you just draw the line at the goverment actually doing those things once it's thought about them?

That's a highly unusual position to take isn't it?

...But that wouldn’t be in America’s best interest, would it?
Not if you can’t think beyond the nation one happens to inhabit, no.

So you're fine with the US government considering things for the betterment of the world...you just draw the line at the goverment actually doing those things once it's thought about them?

That's a highly unusual position to take isn't it?

LOL, if that's what I meant then yes it would be.

What I meant was 'do things in the best interest of the world if they are also in the best interest of the U.S.'

Not if you can’t think beyond the nation one happens to inhabit, no.

And when was the last time that the U.K. did something for the benefit of the world?

and maybe as the last true superpower it's time for america to do things in the best interest of the world, not just in the best interest of america

There is nothing wrong with working to improve the world, however, America comes first and foremost. We might was well make sure we benefit and on top of the heap if we can.

Not if you can’t think beyond the nation one happens to inhabit, no.

There's nothing wrong with insuring the prosperity of your nation.

There is nothing wrong with working to improve the world

That is, according to you, as long as we have something to gain from it.

There is nothing wrong with working to improve the world, however, America comes first and foremost. We might was well make sure we benefit and on top of the heap if we can.



There's nothing wrong with insuring the prosperity of your nation.

Gaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I'm agreeing with Trollgaard!!!

*runs away*

;)

That is, according to you, as long as we have something to gain from it.

Exactly, or at least aren't going to lose anything by doing so.

It was Your Motherland that gave you life, and so it should be to your motherland that you owe your life

I don't know. In my case it was my parents who gave me life.

I am Polish born, though my Father was East German, it was in Poland from whence I came and I take pride in my beloved motherland.
And rightly so. Poland has done many great things for you to be proud of.
Why, there's Chopin for one.
and uh umm ohhh



Well, there's Chopin for one.

And when was the last time that the U.K. did something for the benefit of the world?
What on Earth has that got to do with what’s being discussed? A “whose nation has the biggest cock” contest perfectly exemplifies this narrow mindset of feeling you have to stick up for the nation you happened to be born in/emigrate to that I suggest we all move away from. It leads to nonsensical positions like:

There is nothing wrong with working to improve the world, however, America comes first and foremost. We might was well make sure we benefit and on top of the heap if we can.

What on Earth has that got to do with what’s being discussed? A “whose nation has the biggest cock” contest perfectly exemplifies this narrow mindset of feeling you have to stick up for the nation you happened to be born in/emigrate to that I suggest we all move away from. It leads to nonsensical positions like:

There is nothing nonsensical about it. It as common mindset. Why not try and make your country the most powerful? As the US currently is the most powerful, it is only natural to want to keep it that way.

Sure, why not help if it doesn't cost us much? And why not help when it is in our benefit?

However, when helping others becomes a detriment to your own nation, there is no reason to continue.

Practically everyone wants their nation to succeed. There is nothing wrong with that.

It as common mindset.
‘Common mindset’ does not always equal ‘rational’.

Why not try and make your country the most powerful? As the US currently is the most powerful, it is only natural to want to keep it that way.
Only if one has submitted to a view of ‘us’ and ‘them’; to the that anyone outside of a nation’s borders is somehow less important, less deserving of help, etc.

A mindset that I’d describe as irrational.

However, when helping others becomes a detriment to your own nation, there is no reason to continue.
Again, see above.

On a personal level, I find that a rather nasty statement; “why help anyone else outside of nation x‘s boundaries if it doesn’t fiscally benefit anyone inside nation x?”. That's a horrible way to think.

What on Earth has that got to do with what’s being discussed? A “whose nation has the biggest cock” contest perfectly exemplifies this narrow mindset of feeling you have to stick up for the nation you happened to be born in/emigrate to that I suggest we all move away from. It leads to nonsensical positions like:

Briefly looking at a map, I would say South America.. but that is a continent...
Chile maybe?
Mexico is a wang.

Sweden.. Norway?

I don't know.

‘Common mindset’ does not always equal ‘rational’.


Only if one has submitted to a view of ‘us’ and ‘them’; to the that anyone outside of a nation’s borders is somehow less important, less deserving of help, etc.

A mindset that I’d describe as irrational.


Again, see above.

On a personal level, I find that a rather nasty statement; “why help anyone else outside of nation x‘s boundaries if it doesn’t fiscally benefit anyone inside nation x?”. That's a horrible way to think.

Submitting to the 'us vs them mentality?

Let me tell you something that may be surprising...

That has ALWAYS been humanity's mindset, and always will be.

The 'us' group is more important than members of the 'them' group because, obviously, the members of the us group are closer to you, and affect you more.

If bringing others up requires bringing yourself down, then it is not worth doing.

Submitting to the ‘us vs them mentality?

Let me tell you something that may be surprising...

That has ALWAYS been humanity’s mindset, and always will be.
That’s simply not true.

I, and others on this site, are testament to this, as is any cross-border humanitarian effort, international organisation; heck, even this very forum.

Submitting to the 'us vs them mentality?

Let me tell you something that may be surprising...

That has ALWAYS been humanity's mindset, and always will be.

Doctors without borders.

The 'us' group is more important than members of the 'them' group because, obviously, the members of the us group are closer to you, and affect you more.


only if you believe in such nonsensical and, frankly, dangerous concept of "us" and "them". Those of us who have managed to see beyond such barbaric social institutions recognize there is no "them" and no "us". There's just "us". All of us. People. That someone in rwanda is no more and no less deserving of basic human rights, and a surviveable standard of living including access to palatable food and water and affordable health care, than someone in the United States.

To believe otherwise is to believe that someone in America is more deserving of those things purely by accident of birth. The implications of which are, as I said, barbaric.

That’s simply not true.

I, and others on this site, are testament to this, as is any cross-border humanitarian effort, international organisation; heck, even this very forum.

Um, yes, it is true. All the way back into hunter-gather days, though it was much less strong then. Us vs them was, and is, a tried and true survival method.

True, this is not the only mentality, but by far the most prevalent.

edit:

the hell?

There is nothing barbaric about this mentality. It is a perfectly natural mentality. Sure, everyone is human, but humans are different. People have many differences, as well as many similarities.

Edit times two: There is nothing nonsensical about it either.

The very notion that there is no such thing as us and them is nonsensical.

Um, yes, it is true. All the way back into hunter-gather days.

And therein lies the difference. There are those among us who believe we should cling to the notions of a savage and brutal time, and there are those among us who believe that it's well beyond time we evolved past the social concious of barbarians

True, this is not the only mentality, but by far the most prevalent.
And as I said before, a mindset being common doesn’t meant that it is any more or less correct.

As the twenty-first century progresses, we’re beginning to see the major problems facing the concept of the nation. A globalised, connected world, where more and more (yet by no means all; something we must remedy) people are able to communicate cheaply, efficiently and with a broad variety of media, is putting paid to the rather silly notion of ‘belonging’ to a nation.

We are all humans, we all live on the same planet, we share many problems. It’s time for us to recognise these facts.

There is nothing barbaric about this mentality.
On the contrary, I believe there is something barbaric about the mentalities of 'might is right' and 'us vs. them'. Is that not what a barbarian is; one whose unable/unwilling to discuss or to debate, someone who instantly resorts to violence and brawn to resolve problems?

the hell?

There is nothing barbaric about this mentality. It is a perfectly natural mentality.

Um. Natural != necessarily good or non-barbaric. In fact, the contrary is often true.

Sure, everyone is human, but humans are different. People have many differences, as well as many similarities.

What differences do we have that SHOULD divide us?

And therein lies the difference. There are those among us who believe we should cling to the notions of a savage and brutal time, and there are those among us who believe that it's well beyond time we evolved past the social concious of barbarians

Haha, barbarians?! You say that like a bad thing. And since you even used the term negatively you are showing bias and lack of tolerance!

And as I said before, a mindset being common doesn’t meant that it is any more or less correct.

As the twenty-first century progresses, we’re beginning to see the major problems facing the concept of the nation. A globalised, connected world, where more and more (yet by no means all; something we must remedy) people are able to communicate cheaply, efficiently and with a broad variety of media, is putting paid to the rather silly notion of ‘belonging’ to a nation.

We are all humans, we all live on the same planet, we share many problems. It’s time for us to recognise these facts.

Well, globalization can kiss my ass.

I am a citizen of the United States of America. I want my nation to succeed. I want my nation to be prosperous. I don't mind helping others if it doesn't lower the standards of America, but helping others outside of my group is not a requirement, and might even hurt myself, and the rest of the nation.

Yes, we are all humans and live on the same planet. We all eat, sleep, fuck, love, and all that. But we are all different. Every region has different values, beliefs, etc. Nations reflect this. Nations give people voice that would be lost on a larger scale (one world government, it seems like you are somewhat arguing for).

Edit: at Cat-Tribe (have we ever talked on this forum? I've seen you around alot, but I don't think we've had direct conversation!)

What differences divide us? Political beliefs, economic beliefs, morals, values, religion, food preferances, art preferences, music preferences, sport preferences, jobs, education, hobbies, history, ethnicities, culture, attitudes etc. Not all of these require people to live separately, but they can.

Haha, barbarians?! You say that like a bad thing.
Um... yes.

Yes, we are all humans and live on the same planet. We all eat, sleep, fuck, love, and all that. But we are all different. Every region has different values, beliefs, etc. Nations reflect this.
Really?

So everyone in the US is exactly the same? Has the same values, beliefs, etc?

Haha, barbarians?! You say that like a bad thing.

Yes, I do generally consider barbarity to be a bad thing. I think the important question is why you don't.

And since you even used the term negatively you are showing bias and lack of tolerance!


Am I biased towards people who advocate hate and violence rather than compassion and unity?

Damned straight. The important question is why you don't.

Yes, I do generally consider barbarity to be a bad thing. I think the important question is why you don't.



Am I biased towards people who advocate hate and violence rather than compassion and unity?

Damned straight. The important question is why you don't.

You are putting words in my mouth. I didn't advocate hate or violence. I merely stated put your own nation above the rest.

Unity my ass. I'd rather have everyone leave my group the fuck alone (yes, the US isn't doing that right now, but it should).

And you know barbarians were simply non-Greeks right? So, damn straight I'm a barbarian.

And you know barbarians were simply non-Greeks right?
Around 300 BCE it was.

The word has changed meaning somewhat. Hence 'barbaric' does not mean 'acting like a non-Greek'.

...But that wouldn't be in America's best interest, would it?

Ahhhh so then the 'rebuilding' of Europe and Japan, by America after the second world war, if it was in Americas best interest could not really be called good then can it, in an aulteristic sense?

And when was the last time that the U.K. did something for the benefit of the world?

Heh and what actions has any country done for the benifit of the world?

Briefly looking at a map, I would say South America.. but that is a continent...
Chile maybe?
Mexico is a wang.

Sweden.. Norway?

I don't know.

Italy has certian knobish qualites about it also, and the UK looks quite ummm erect!

I merely stated put your own nation above the rest.

Why?
Also, personally, I don't have a nation.
I was born in one, with one parent originally from another. I then lived some time in another nation, returned to the first, and am now living in an altogether different nation again. Neither myself nor my fiance are originally from this nation, and we don't have the same citizenship, either.
We might stay here, or move on, depending largely on our careers and the general job situation.

So, in you opinion, which nation should I put above all others? And why, again, would I put any nation above another?


And you know barbarians were simply non-Greeks right? So, damn straight I'm a barbarian.

Actually, yes, it does come from Greek, but it doesn't mean non-Greek, but "bearded". So unless you've got a full lush beard, you're not a barbarian

Submitting to the 'us vs them mentality?

Let me tell you something that may be surprising...

That has ALWAYS been humanity's mindset, and always will be.

The 'us' group is more important than members of the 'them' group because, obviously, the members of the us group are closer to you, and affect you more.

If bringing others up requires bringing yourself down, then it is not worth doing.

So we have had the last three pages of this sort of twaddle I hope that it helps to clarify to the OP why exactly 'pride of your people' is an outdated piece of bunkum.

Trollgard though is right that this mindet has always been, but quite wrong to suggest that it will always be.

It used to be okay to keep slaves, it used to be okey for children to work long back braking jobs, it used to be okey for women not to vote, the world turns and changes and one day outdated modes of thought will be left behind.

Open up your arms Trollgard and welcome the 'new thought', coz that really is your only option.

Um, yes, it is true. All the way back into hunter-gather days, though it was much less strong then. Us vs them was, and is, a tried and true survival method.




True, but it did and still does change.
It started out by "us" being your immediate family.
Then families united and "us" became a tribe.
Then tribes united and "us" became large tribes, and eventually small countries or nations.
Then nations united and "us" became nation states.
Now nations states are in the process of uniting, turning "us" into unions.
Eventually, there will only be "us", no "them".

True, but it did and still does change.
It started out by "us" being your immediate family.
Then families united and "us" became a tribe.
Then tribed united and "us" became large tribes, and eventually small countries or nations.
Then nations united and "us" became nation states.
Now nations states are in the process of uniting, turning "us" into unions.
Eventually, there will only be "us", no "them".

Martian invaders

Martian invaders

Resistance if futile, you will be assimilated ;)

What on Earth has that got to do with what’s being discussed? A “whose nation has the biggest cock” contest perfectly exemplifies this narrow mindset of feeling you have to stick up for the nation you happened to be born in/emigrate to that I suggest we all move away from. It leads to nonsensical positions like:

What it has to do with the side discussion between you, me, Neo A, and Trollgaard is you were complaining that the U.S. didn't do things to help out the world, the point I was trying to make is that your country hasn't exactly been doing much of anything to help out the world either, thusly you're being rather hypocritical.


And to make sure what my feelings are on this:

Lets assume that there is a problem with only 3 solutions-
Solution 1 - Benefits the world, doesn't benefit the U.S.
Solution 2 - Benefits the world, benefits the U.S.
Solution 3 - Benefits the U.S., doesn't benefit the world.

I would (assuming I was in charge) choose Solution 2.

What it has to do with the side discussion between you, me, Neo A, and Trollgaard is you were complaining that the U.S. didn't do things to help out the world, the point I was trying to make is that your country hasn't exactly been doing much of anything to help out the world either, thusly you're being rather hypocritical.


And to make sure what my feelings are on this:

Lets assume that there is a problem with only 3 solutions-
Solution 1 - Benefits the world, doesn't benefit the U.S.
Solution 2 - Benefits the world, benefits the U.S.
Solution 3 - Benefits the U.S., doesn't benefit the world.

I would (assuming I was in charge) choose Solution 2.


And yet your viewpoints are narrow and myopic. If given the choice, of course people would do things that benefit the nation and the world at large. It's kind of a no brainer. It's like asking would I rather:

1) have you win a million dollars in a lottery, but I get nothing
2) have us both win a million dollars in a lottery
3) have me win a million dollars in a lottery, but you get nothing.

and then questioning which people would do. Of course most rational, somewhat compassionate people will go with #2. It benefits both of us. But the world isn't so simple. What if there was no option that did that? What if the situations were more complex? What if I were very wealthy and you were very poor, and giving you 1% of my wealth would quadruple yours? It harms me, slightly, but benefits you, immensly. What if I lent you money, and the interest I was getting were negligble for me, but you were going broke paying them, and forgiving the interest would be of great benefit to you, but a slight harm to me? What if you're starving and I have a lot of food?

The world is not so simple and harmonius where we can always look at a list of possibilities and pick the one where everyone wins. Sometimes parties don't win equally. Sometimes a party has to give things up to make another party proportionatly a lot better off. If america always looks for options in which it stands to gain, it misses out on huge opportunities to improve the world, and make the lives of a lot of people better, without significant cost to us.

To suggest we shouldn't do that because we don't stand to benefit from it is to say that these people deserve to starve to death because they're not americans.

Forgive me if I can not subscribe to such a selfish and barbaric ideology.

As much as in most of the world, that many can 'become' a citizen of a Nation simply by gaining the proper paperwork, the god-honest truth is that one is always that of the nation from where they were born

It was Your Motherland that gave you life, and so it should be to your motherland that you owe your life

I am Polish born, though my Father was East German, it was in Poland from whence I came and I take pride in my beloved motherland

who else here takes a fierce pride in their Nation?
That's like saying that if someone was conceived through rape, it was a rapist that gave them life and as such they owe their life to rapists. Not in the sense that one's country is necessarily evil, but in the sense that the idea that people have to be loyal to something, just because their existance is in part a result of it, is bullcrap.

Furthermore, how much difference would nationality make in the development of consciousness anyways? Yes, a different consciousness would develop if the genes of the same parents combined differently, but genetic combination doesn't depend on the nation in which it occurs.

What it has to do with the side discussion between you, me, Neo A, and Trollgaard is you were complaining that the U.S. didn't do things to help out the world, the point I was trying to make is that your country hasn't exactly been doing much of anything to help out the world either, thusly you're being rather hypocritical.


And to make sure what my feelings are on this:

Lets assume that there is a problem with only 3 solutions-
Solution 1 - Benefits the world, doesn't benefit the U.S.
Solution 2 - Benefits the world, benefits the U.S.
Solution 3 - Benefits the U.S., doesn't benefit the world.

I would (assuming I was in charge) choose Solution 2.

I know I can be a little slow at times, but can somebody please explain to me how a solution that benifits the world does not benifit the USA? Is the USA on the moon or summit?

Um, yes, it is true. All the way back into hunter-gather days, though it was much less strong then. Us vs them was, and is, a tried and true survival method.

Are you proposing we revert back to survival of the fittest? No treatment for those who are sick?

True, this is not the only mentality, but by far the most prevalent.

Just so. It now appears that being a nasty twit (understand, I am not referring to you) is the most prevalent.

edit:

the hell?

There is nothing barbaric about this mentality. It is a perfectly natural mentality.

Raping 13-year-old girls is also natural. Is there anything barbaric about that?


Sure, everyone is human, but humans are different. People have many differences, as well as many similarities.


Hopefully, you are not bringing-up a racist theory.

Edit times two: There is nothing nonsensical about it either.


No, it works quite well. We just do not want to devolve to the evil of people like Genghis Khan. If Bush declared war against the EU, I would not want to be killed for it.

The very notion that there is no such thing as us and them is nonsensical.

Or maybe it is just a wee step above terrorists and KKK members?

Why?
Also, personally, I don't have a nation.
I was born in one, with one parent originally from another. I then lived some time in another nation, returned to the first, and am now living in an altogether different nation again. Neither myself nor my fiance are originally from this nation, and we don't have the same citizenship, either.
We might stay here, or move on, depending largely on our careers and the general job situation.

So, in you opinion, which nation should I put above all others? And why, again, would I put any nation above another?



Actually, yes, it does come from Greek, but it doesn't mean non-Greek, but "bearded". So unless you've got a full lush beard, you're not a barbarian

I'm in luck then, as mine beard had grown back since that horrible idea I had before new years to shave it!

As much as in most of the world, that many can 'become' a citizen of a Nation simply by gaining the proper paperwork, the god-honest truth is that one is always that of the nation from where they were born

It was Your Motherland that gave you life, and so it should be to your motherland that you owe your life

I am Polish born, though my Father was East German, it was in Poland from whence I came and I take pride in my beloved motherland

who else here takes a fierce pride in their Nation?
Why should I have pride in something over which I had no control?

I can understand being proud of my accomplishments, but being born in a specific place isn't one.

Nothing wrong with taking pride in a mothernation. But it is human nature to be nomadic. Early humans were nomads and wouldnt have survived if they werent. So you could say being patriotic is kinda unnatural. But yeah, why not be proud of your country is what I say! :)

What it has to do with the side discussion between you, me, Neo A, and Trollgaard is you were complaining that the U.S. didn’t do things to help out the world, the point I was trying to make is that your country hasn’t exactly been doing much of anything to help out the world either, thusly you’re being rather hypocritical.
I was complaining about the Bretton-Woods system set up, largely, by the US government after WW2. I wasn’t saying “the US is bad and Britain is better”.

Once again, we have to resort to ‘your country’ and ‘my country’, to ‘us’ and ‘them’.

The very notion that there is no such thing as us and them is nonsensical.
There is no such thing as us and them. You're confusing "us" for "I". The only sort of distinction that makes sense is between yourself and everything else. You may have succeeded in fooling yourself into believing that the "I" includes a select group of convenient "them"s in order to cover up the fact that the "I" is what you're acting on behalf of, but that's not really empathy; that's just co-operative selfishness.

You care about everyone, you care about yourself, or you do both. There's no half-way "us" selectivity about it.

Why?
Also, personally, I don't have a nation.
I was born in one, with one parent originally from another. I then lived some time in another nation, returned to the first, and am now living in an altogether different nation again. Neither myself nor my fiance are originally from this nation, and we don't have the same citizenship, either.
We might stay here, or move on, depending largely on our careers and the general job situation.

So, in you opinion, which nation should I put above all others? And why, again, would I put any nation above another?


Well, I would normally say where you born, but wherever you choose to make a home and have a family in would work.

So we have had the last three pages of this sort of twaddle I hope that it helps to clarify to the OP why exactly 'pride of your people' is an outdated piece of bunkum.

Trollgard though is right that this mindet has always been, but quite wrong to suggest that it will always be.

It used to be okay to keep slaves, it used to be okey for children to work long back braking jobs, it used to be okey for women not to vote, the world turns and changes and one day outdated modes of thought will be left behind.

Open up your arms Trollgard and welcome the 'new thought', coz that really is your only option.

I believe the mindset will always stay.

That way of thinking is in no way, shape, or form outdated. And even if it was, I'd fight to keep it.

True, but it did and still does change.
It started out by "us" being your immediate family.
Then families united and "us" became a tribe.
Then tribes united and "us" became large tribes, and eventually small countries or nations.
Then nations united and "us" became nation states.
Now nations states are in the process of uniting, turning "us" into unions.
Eventually, there will only be "us", no "them".

Us has increased true. On a global scale I include my fellow citizens as the 'us', within the nation, however, 'us', for me at least, is friends, family, and the local community.

There is no such thing as us and them. You're confusing "us" for "I". The only sort of distinction that makes sense is between yourself and everything else. You may have succeeded in fooling yourself into believing that the "I" includes a select group of convenient "them"s in order to cover up the fact that the "I" is what you're acting on behalf of, but that's not really empathy; that's just co-operative selfishness.

You care about everyone, you care about yourself, or you do both. There's no half-way "us" selectivity about it.

You, sir, are completely wrong. I care deeply for my friends and family, and I would gladly die for them. I care for my nation and fellow citizens as well, though not as much as friends and family. And yes, I do care people outside my country, too, just not to the same degree as the former two groups.

Here's and example of us and them:
The 'us' group: Kansans
the 'them' group: Missourians.

further:
Americans

Canadians

It could even be groups high school, like jocks and the nerds, or religion, or, anything else, really.

It is really very simple. I honestly cannot even comprehend how someone cannot grasp this concept. Maybe you don't agree with it, or think it shouldn't exist, but it exists, and will continue to exist for a long time. Maybe it will lesson, maybe it will grow stronger, or maybe it will stay the same. But it will still be around.

That's like saying that if someone was conceived through rape, it was a rapist that gave them life and as such they owe their life to rapists..

one must ask serious questions about women, who that despite the cause of their rape pregnancy, decide to keep the baby some P-o-S forced into them

Well, I would normally say where you born, but wherever you choose to make a home and have a family in would work.

There are plenty of people who will stay in one place a few years, and then move on. They make a home in every place they stay for a while, as I have.
So, which country is it going to be? Tell me.



I believe the mindset will always stay.

That way of thinking is in no way, shape, or form outdated. And even if it was, I'd fight to keep it.



Us has increased true. On a global scale I include my fellow citizens as the 'us', within the nation, however, 'us', for me at least, is friends, family, and the local community.

You're contradicting yourself there, in case you hadn't noticed.
The mindset has changed and is changing. You're a bit of an anachronism in that respect.



You, sir, are completely wrong. I care deeply for my friends and family, and I would gladly die for them. I care for my nation and fellow citizens as well, though not as much as friends and family. And yes, I do care people outside my country, too, just not to the same degree as the former two groups.

Here's and example of us and them:
The 'us' group: Kansans
the 'them' group: Missourians.

further:
Americans

Canadians

It could even be groups high school, like jocks and the nerds, or religion, or, anything else, really.

It is really very simple. I honestly cannot even comprehend how someone cannot grasp this concept. Maybe you don't agree with it, or think it shouldn't exist, but it exists, and will continue to exist for a long time. Maybe it will lesson, maybe it will grow stronger, or maybe it will stay the same. But it will still be around.

Dying for others is massively overrated. Living for others is much more difficult, and much more effective.
Personally, I can't grasp the concept of placing one random groups of people above another random group of people based on nothing but geography.

one must ask serious questions about women, who that despite the cause of their rape pregnancy, decide to keep the baby some P-o-S forced into them

Why would the cause of rape be pregnancy? :confused:

I believe the mindset will always stay.

That way of thinking is in no way, shape, or form outdated. And even if it was, I'd fight to keep it.

Then it is true, you are a bigot? Why else would anybody fight to keep something that is so diversive?

The 'us' group: Kansans[QUOTE]

Red-Legs!

[QUOTE]the 'them' group: Missourians.

Bushwhackers!

There are plenty of people who will stay in one place a few years, and then move on. They make a home in every place they stay for a while, as I have.
So, which country is it going to be? Tell me.


Sure, people move from one town to another, one state to another, or one city to another. Changing countries isn't that common.

I'd say the country you consider home should the one you like the most.



You're contradicting yourself there, in case you hadn't noticed.
The mindset has changed and is changing. You're a bit of an anachronism in that respect.


How am I an anachronism, again?



Dying for others is massively overrated. Living for others is much more difficult, and much more effective.
Personally, I can't grasp the concept of placing one random groups of people above another random group of people based on nothing but geography.

I much prefer living, too, but I meant what I said. I'd die to keep my family alive.

It is simple, really. The people in whatever area you live in affect you most. Therefore, they are the most important.

There's absolutely no reason at all to feel pride about the color of your skin, hair and eyes. That makes no difference in the kind of person you are.


That kinda reminds me of how I'm Italian. I was born in America, and so were my parents, but I'm of Italian decent. If anything, I resent the Italians for my greasy skin and tons of hair.

Sure, people move from one town to another, one state to another, or one city to another. Changing countries isn't that common.

I'd say the country you consider home should the one you like the most.


You'd be surprised... I think I'll make a little thread here to demonstrate the point ;)



How am I an anachronism, again?

By clinging the the "them" vs "us" line of thought.


I much prefer living, too, but I meant what I said. I'd die to keep my family alive.

It is simple, really. The people in whatever area you live in affect you most. Therefore, they are the most important.

No. The most important people are the people that I make most important to me. And these people currently live on 4 continents, in about 20 different countries.
I call "home" wherever I have friends. Not where I happen to live for one reason or another. I've got many homes, and so have most people I know.

one must ask serious questions about women, who that despite the cause of their rape pregnancy, decide to keep the baby some P-o-S forced into them

Are you insinuating that women who are raped shouldn't keep the baby? Most of them wouldn't most likely, but if a woman decides that she wants to keep the baby produced of the rape, why is it your call to judge her decision?

My loyalties are somewhat divided. I am an American citizen, but I would like to be an Israeli. My life situation right now makes it impossible for me to move to Israel, but I want to do so eventually.

I do feel a fierce loyalty to my homeworld, Terra.