NationStates Jolt Archive

Laws, how we need them and how many break them, and many people either seem not to care or side with the bad guys as the rift between the clump in the citizens' respect for laws lowers and the level of action required by police rises

[The more the citizens disobey the laws, the more police have to enforce laws, and the more police enforce laws, the more the citizens disobey them]


The great divide between Law and Chaos made worse by those on the supposed side of Law who are corrupt and assist the Chaos, the those within the side of Chaos who assist the Law, creating a system of 2 sides but of 4 parts that fight each other and no clear idea who is actually the good guy as public opinion can make anything look good if you sugarcoat it enough



Much as i just ranted that , anyone who can make sense of it is free to add their opinion - I look forwards to the great debate

maybe a cold glass of vodka might help

when im half full i tend to think deeper about things

[alcohol stimulates my creative powers - if this works on others, maybe it explains why the Russians invent such totally cool stuff]

Much as i just ranted that , anyone who can make sense of it is free to add their opinion - I look forwards to the great debateCan't really make sense of it.

This thread, 10:45 AM, San Francisco (http://www.moviewavs.com/php/sounds/?id=bst&media=MP3S&type=TV_Shows&movie=Law_And_Order&quote=logavel.txt&file=logavel.mp3)

well basically a bad guy is simply one who breaks laws and social norms and does bad things to others

much as democratic law has more holes than a fishing net, and allows obviously guilty criminals to go free because their lawyer can doctor up a good enough defence by piecing up a soup of different laws and putting it through a filter of opinion rather than facts

Ive met several guys hooked on Mephamphetamine who walked free becasue they could spin up eough crap to talk their way out of jail time

Laws, how we need them and how many break them, and many people either seem not to care or side with the bad guys as the rift between the clump in the citizens' respect for laws lowers and the level of action required by police rises
[The more the citizens disobey the laws, the more police have to enforce laws, and the more police enforce laws, the more the citizens disobey them]
The great divide between Law and Chaos made worse by those on the supposed side of Law who are corrupt and assist the Chaos, the those within the side of Chaos who assist the Law, creating a system of 2 sides but of 4 parts that fight each other and no clear idea who is actually the good guy as public opinion can make anything look good if you sugarcoat it enough
Much as i just ranted that , anyone who can make sense of it is free to add their opinion - I look forwards to the great debate

First bolded part, what counts as a 'bad guy'?

Second bolded part, the more people disobey the law the more police have to enforce the laws? Can you give an example of this type of behaviour? a source perhaps?
Law and chaos? so those who disobey the law are chaotic? no i don't think so, not all of them, there is no such pure divide between good and evil, as so many movies try to make you think. It's more complicated than that, and this debate could go on forever on a number of points you made.

Is this just your thoughts on laws or i don't know your dislike of people who glorify crime? or what?

I agree with Laerod. Your ideas are far too advanced for us here. Perhaps you could tell us more about how you hate blacks and Jews? I think that'd be a better debate.

In fact, since you seem to prefer a "great debate," you could start by actually responding to what other people write.

Perhaps you could tell us more about how you hate blacks and Jews? I think that'd be a better debate.

This.

I do fully agree that there are justifiable "Vigilantes' who the act of their crime in fact caused the side effect of benefitting many who were put out by harsh laws

but in todays society, where do Drug dealers, rapists, murderers, and others of their sort who have always been trash, fit into the system?

I do fully agree that there are justifiable "Vigilantes' who the act of their crime in fact caused the side effect of benefitting many who were put out by harsh laws

but in todays society, where do Drug dealers, rapists, murderers, and others of their sort who have always been trash, fit into the system?
Am I the only one who gets the impression that this fellow is stroking his pistol while posting?

Law is much like etiquette-it's supposed to make people feel at ease, to be comforted with each other, but some use it as a bludgeon to pound others into their way of thinking. Differentiating between which a particular law is supposed to accomplish is the duty of an individual. During various eras in human history, those who broke unjust laws were applauded by future generations. During the gangster era of the twenties and thirties, for example, bank robbers were able to build up a positive public image by destroying mortgage and loan records in the banks they were robbing, which gave a lot of public sympathy to them even as it added to the tribulation of the Great Depression, though history has judged these individuals harshly, while other "criminals", most notably Robin Hood, though the highwaymen of Britain still get positive press, were forgiven by historians and enjoy a laudable public image. It depends on the law being broken and the circumstances, I suppose.

er...well:

the police don't really enforce the law the population do (for instance look at how well prohibition worked) the role of the police is social control and the protection of property

also I notice you mention chaos erm what view do you have of the pre-industrial world

much as democratic law has more holes than a fishing net, and allows obviously guilty criminals to go free because their lawyer can doctor up a good enough defence by piecing up a soup of different laws and putting it through a filter of opinion rather than facts

erm...you make it seem like such a thing always happens and that somehow democracy has something to do with this

are the alternatives somehow better to you?

Ive met several guys hooked on Mephamphetamine who walked free becasue they could spin up eough crap to talk their way out of jail time

well yes putting people away with drug problems is usually a bad idea

Perhaps you could tell us more about how you hate blacks and Jews? I think that'd be a better debate.

the Jews run the international banking system and yet where still behind the attack on the world trade center

yes you heard me right! were in the middle of a Zionist civil war!!!1

This.Aw... You cut out the part where he agreed with me :(

I do fully agree that there are justifiable "Vigilantes' who the act of their crime in fact caused the side effect of benefitting many who were put out by harsh laws

such as the vigilantes who attacked the paediatrician (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/901723.stm) or maybe you somehow think mob rule can work at all (instead of the you' know fair trial rather than the standard witch hunts)

but in todays society, where do witches, Jews, gays, and others of their sort who have always been trash, fit into the system?

oh look I used my gypsy magic to send you back to the 1800's, you certainly don't change the argument

as for what you was getting at they need rehabilitation for they are ill :)

Call to power

I thought the attack on the TRade towers was engineered by the US government [bush and cheney] as a pretext to gain american support for the attack on iraq

its a repeat of history -
just like when that PoS hitler wanted a reason to invade poland - he killed some random civilians, dressed them in polish army uniforms and left their bodies inside a german radio station, before claiming that the polish had attacked germany and killed the german radio staff, then declared war on poland

-------------------
Call To Power. stop editing my posts when you choose to quote things

well basically a bad guy is simply one who breaks laws and social norms and does bad things to others
Again, your qualification of "bad things" is lacking. I see no problem in breaking laws or social norms if doing so protects people from harm. I would, for instance, disregard legal injunctions preventing me from protesting if the case was worth protesting over (such as, say, illegal detention, corporate irresponsibility, government corruption etc.).

People who are obviously guilty rarely go free. The whole point of a criminal defense is to demonstrate how obvious guilt may in fact not be so obvious.

Call to power

I thought the attack on the TRade towers was engineered by the US government [bush and cheney] as a pretext to gain american support for the attack on iraq

its a repeat of history -
just like when that PoS hitler wanted a reason to invade poland - he killed some random civilians, dressed them in polish army uniforms and left their bodies inside a german radio station, before claiming that the polish had attacked germany and killed the german radio staff, then declared war on poland

-------------------
Call To Power. stop editing my posts when you choose to quote things

nononononono, those are two very different things, the Twin towers event was not a set-up to start war.
I mean what government would willingly kill it's own civilians in such a public way in such an important building? it does not make sense.
Hitler had strange ideas, i mean sure Bush also has strange ideas, but he doesn't have as strong an anti-sematic message as Hitler the two do not compare, one was evil and clever (Hitler) the other was stupid but well meaning (Bush).

I do fully agree that there are justifiable "Vigilantes' who the act of their crime in fact caused the side effect of benefitting many who were put out by harsh laws

Vigilantism is a pretty terrible idea. The trial system is subject to human error, but it at least tries to eliminate that. Vigilantism doesn't. An innocent person can be killed by vigilantes just as easily as a guilty one.

I thought the attack on the TRade towers was engineered by the US government [bush and cheney] as a pretext to gain american support for the attack on iraq

I'm sorry but the US government believed that after invading Iraq the US troops would be greeted as "liberators"....and er the president who only just survived an assassination attempt from a pretzel :p

its a repeat of history -
just like when that PoS hitler wanted a reason to invade poland - he killed some random civilians, dressed them in polish army uniforms and left their bodies inside a german radio station, before claiming that the polish had attacked germany and killed the german radio staff, then declared war on poland

I'm sorry I can't seem to recall that period in history...also no Hitler never bothered with a formal declaration

also godwin

Call to power

I thought the attack on the TRade towers was engineered by the US government [bush and cheney] as a pretext to gain american support for the attack on iraq

its a repeat of history -
just like when that PoS hitler wanted a reason to invade poland - he killed some random civilians, dressed them in polish army uniforms and left their bodies inside a german radio station, before claiming that the polish had attacked germany and killed the german radio staff, then declared war on poland

-------------------
Call To Power. stop editing my posts when you choose to quote things

What faith you have in Bush to think he is smart enough to pull it off and that people love him so much that everyone involved would not tell a single person of what they did, the convince osama bin laden to put out multiple tapes claiming he did it and getting all other world governemnts to agree with you that he did it.

Call to power

I thought the attack on the TRade towers was engineered by the US government [bush and cheney] as a pretext to gain american support for the attack on iraq

its a repeat of history -
just like when that PoS hitler wanted a reason to invade poland - he killed some random civilians, dressed them in polish army uniforms and left their bodies inside a german radio station, before claiming that the polish had attacked germany and killed the german radio staff, then declared war on poland

-------------------
Call To Power. stop editing my posts when you choose to quote thingsNeither of the above is true. The former is pure idiocy, while the latter was a staged attack by several SS men on a German frontier post, not what you described.

http://www.myconfinedspace.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/09/109643897_a944aaa89b.jpg

http://www.myconfinedspace.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/09/109643897_a944aaa89b.jpg

Your picture is worthless. Prove that Bush and his government are responsible for the WTC attacks and your argument might be worth listening to.

http://www.myconfinedspace.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/09/109643897_a944aaa89b.jpgSo because a jpg told you Bush attacked the WTC, it must be true?

I thought the attack on the TRade towers was engineered by the US government [bush and cheney] as a pretext to gain american support for the attack on iraq

The Bush government has shown itself time and again that it is hideously incompetent - but you still believe it could orchastrate one of the largest terrorist operations in history without a shred of convincing evidence to link it to the act? How can a government be both useless and display byzantine levels of conspiracy?

How can a government be both useless and display byzantine levels of conspiracy?
A convenient alibi, isn't it?

Almost... TOO convenient...

*Shifty eyes*

well thats just the thing about modern conspiracy, with the level of professional acting its easy for the puppets in the US government to act, or in fact be truly stupid while the puppetmasters pull the strings from where no-one can see them

Plausible Deniability

bascially having a bunch of complete asses as the faces on the government, and while everyone thinks they have power, the real decision makers do their thing and hide behind the fact that the public will try to accuse the government at the same time they know the government is too stupid to organise things

http://www.myconfinedspace.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/09/109643897_a944aaa89b.jpg

yeah sure Bush is stupid, but that's not what we're disputing, the Twin Towers event was not staged. It was poorly responded too, but not staged.
They are different.
E.g. Hitler banned all political opposition, Bush has not, Hitler's country was in a time of difficulty, US was not when Bush took power.
Hitler Started anti-semitism against the Jews, Bush has not.
Yes Bush is not a nice person but Hitler was plain insane.

this thread fails.

little quirk:

Hitler was half jewish, and yet purged millions of his pureblood 'cousins'

There are many good Middle eastern people in the USA, but Bush had no trouble spreading suspicion about all of them after a mere handful of them attacked USA

little quirk:

Hitler was half jewish, and yet purged millions of his pureblood 'cousins'

There are many good Middle eastern people in the USA, but Bush had no trouble spreading suspicion about all of them after a mere handful of them attacked USAProof?

little quirk:

Hitler was half jewish

Bullshit (http://www.antiquark.com/entropyzone/wallpaper/no_bullshit.jpg)

well a solid conspiracy theory would be that the USA government is run by the corporations, who find one way or another to spoon-feed useful political puppets the resources they need to be the new face of america, so that the public believe that they were elected in a democratic way, but in fact have been selected to be the new puppets

as all state vote tallies are separate, no other state knows what the votes of their neighbour states are until they get 'counted' - and as it is goverment 'officials' who do the counting, every american believes without a doubt that the votes were fair and honest, and if a bad politician gets elected, well,...blame the guys in the next state, THEY must have done it

classic case of "blame the guy next door" syndrome

Ifreann

His real name was Adolf Shicklegruber, his father was Alois Shicklegruber, and a jew
Alois sadly married his Neice and had adolf, making adolf a halfblood

well thats just the thing about modern conspiracy, with the level of professional acting its easy for the puppets in the US government to act, or in fact be truly stupid while the puppetmasters pull the strings from where no-one can see them

Plausible Deniability

bascially having a bunch of complete asses as the faces on the government, and while everyone thinks they have power, the real decision makers do their thing and hide behind the fact that the public will try to accuse the government at the same time they know the government is too stupid to organise things

people in power always do things to keep themselves in power, this has happened in History and is nothing new, but occiasionally someone takes power who tries to make better things happen.
But really you can form conspiracy theories over anything, and i mean anything. trouble is alot of them are so daft it's likely the real ones are lost in a huge pile of lies.
So sure there may be conspiracy's but then what's new?

His real name was Adolf Shicklegruber, his father was Alois Shicklegruber, and a jew
Two points:

1) Adolf's father was an illegitimate child to an unknown father. His grandmother later married a man called "Hidler", later transliterated to "Hitler", and so although his father's birthname was indeed something else, he was entirely within his rights to use "Hitler" as his "real" name.

2) The true identity of Hitler's paternal grandfather is still unknown, and it is on that that the question of Hitler's supposed quarter Jewish ancestry lies.

but, he still had enough jewish blood in him to perk up suspicions and hate both himself and the pureblood jews for it

all in all, praise god hes dead and we dont have to deal with his hypocrisy anymore

well a solid conspiracy theory would be that the USA government is run by the corporations, who find one way or another to spoon-feed useful political puppets the resources they need to be the new face of america, so that the public believe that they were elected in a democratic way, but in fact have been selected to be the new puppets

as all state vote tallies are separate, no other state knows what the votes of their neighbour states are until they get 'counted' - and as it is goverment 'officials' who do the counting, every american believes without a doubt that the votes were fair and honest, and if a bad politician gets elected, well,...blame the guys in the next state, THEY must have done it

classic case of "blame the guy next door" syndrome
Prove this to be the case.
Ifreann

His real name was Adolf Shicklegruber, his father was Alois Shicklegruber, and a jew
Alois sadly married his Neice and had adolf, making adolf a halfblood

Your saying it does not make it true. I could just as easily say that you have a cucumber growing out of your nose.

Your saying it does not make it true. I could just as easily say that you have a cucumber growing out of your nose.

Eww, freak. I bet he's got cucumber growing out of all his openings.

And here I thought it was about one of the best TV shows EVAR...

What this really is is a soliloquy on the industrial revolution.

Ifreann

His real name was Adolf Shicklegruber, his father was Alois Shicklegruber, and a jew
Alois sadly married his Neice and had adolf, making adolf a halfblood
Total bullshit. His mother's maidenname was Schickelgruber. His father's last name was Heidler.

peaceful and equitable order can only be achieved by a culture of not wanting to cause suffering and harm. laws, as are, abortion and devorce, are secondary lines of defence.

not everyone is willing or able to dicipline themselves entirely of course, but incentives are key. mythose and its cultural generativeness play a major roll, but when seen as restrictive rather then motivational, become their own biggest obstical.

culpability is culpability and that is one thing. but punnishing culpability does not remove incentives for crimes to be commited. or rather harm and suffering to not be caused, unlawfully or not.

example of letting people get away with things is conterproductive too, but no punishment will prevent crimes, or harmful acts, laws or no laws, from occuring, if there is enough incentive to commit them.

so if, when, there is an actually intent to prevent crimes, harmful acts, from occuring, this cannot be expected to be achieved, without paying attention to incentives and persuing ways of ameliorating them.

you know, these are two seperate things, the culpablitiy and the motivation.

its not a matter of either absolving the other, but a question of "do we want a culture that creates excuses for seeking vengence, or do we actually want crimes and harmful acts to not occur?"

the only 'right' ever made by two wrongs, is a political 'right-wing'.

=^^=
.../\...

but, he still had enough jewish blood in him to perk up suspicions and hate both himself and the pureblood jews for it
There was enough uncertainty about it for him to have to deny it. That's all. It's pure speculation to think that he was anti-Jewish because of his own Jewish heritage.

Law & Order is the greatest show evar.

Law & Order is the greatest show evar.

And here I thought it was about one of the best TV shows EVAR...

huh two posts with similar ideas?
conspiracy!
So the plot thickens, seems like some people have old puppets, maybe they pay off the mods to keep them sweet?

[QUOTE=Cameroi;13510736]
"do we want a culture that creates excuses for seeking vengence, or do we actually want crimes and harmful acts to not occur?"


a good question that needs to be sent to Bush to answer

I have heard about many normal, good iraqi people, giving up their normal lives and jumping into acts of revenge because they were related to one of the militants who were killed by US forces

well basically a bad guy is simply one who breaks laws and social norms and does bad things to others

much as democratic law has more holes than a fishing net, and allows obviously guilty criminals to go free because their lawyer can doctor up a good enough defence by piecing up a soup of different laws and putting it through a filter of opinion rather than facts

Ive met several guys hooked on Mephamphetamine who walked free becasue they could spin up eough crap to talk their way out of jail time

People hooked on drugs should walk free if there's nothing else that would put them in jail. In fact, drug dealers should only be sent to jail for the host of attendant crimes they invariably commit. Like tax evasion, extortion, and smuggling.

The criminalization of drug use just means that when a powerful drug dealer is caught, he can get off with a slap on the wrist by turning a bunch of his customers, or even by setting up others by offering them a lot of money to deliver a package of their drugs to undercover police officers. This works out well for the cops who get to make more arrests, and the drug dealer who gets to avoid jail. The only people who get sent to jail are the people who are suffering from a disorder that happens to be illegal to have.

Bullshit (http://www.antiquark.com/entropyzone/wallpaper/no_bullshit.jpg)

You win the thread.

aww man, I thought this was going to be a thread on the show. :(