NationStates Jolt Archive

Link (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/asia/article3498795.ece)

Viktor Bout, a Russian arms deal who inspired the film Lord of War has been arrested in Thailand...

A Russian arms dealer thought to have inspired the lead character in the blockbuster film Lord of War was arrested in Bangkok today.

Viktor Bout, 41, was detained while allegedly attempting to buy weapons for Colombian rebels.

Dubbed "the merchant of death", he has been accused of breaking UN embargoes since the early 1990s by selling arms to conflict-torn regions in Africa and around the world.

Thai police said today that Mr Bout had been arrested in a Bangkok hotel. "He was attempting to procure weapons for Colombia’s FARC rebels”, the arrest report said.

According to the United Nations and the US Treasury Department, Mr Bout has sold arms or brokered deals that have helped fuel wars in Afghanistan, Angola, the Democratic Republic of Congo, Liberia, Rwanda, Sierra Leone and Sudan.

In 2006, the US Treasury Department seized his cargo planes and froze other assets.

Mr Bout, a former Soviet air force officer, has repeatedly denied the allegations against him.

A report by Amnesty International published in the same year accused Mr Bout of being “the most prominent foreign businessman” involved in trafficking arms to UN-embargoed destinations from Bulgaria, Slovakia, Ukraine, Kyrgyzstan and other countries.

Stephan Rapp, Chief Prosecutor at Sierra Leone’s UN-backed war crimes court, welcomed the arrest: “It’s very good news for justice and for international law enforcement.”

He accused Mr Bout of using his international network to smuggle arms through neighbouring Liberia to fuel Sierra Leone’s 1991-2002 civil war.

He has been for many years a merchant of death, flying arms in the late 1990s into Sierra Leone, Angola and the Congo. I tried working with the security intelligence services to disrupt his activities when I was in the Foreign Office and we were partially successful.

Welcome news for international justice. Now he can be made to answer for his crimes.

Good riddance.

Good fucking riddance. Hang the bastard.

Good fucking riddance. Hang the bastard.

One of the few people who actually deserves Thai justice...

OFF WITH HIS HEAD!!!
http://occleston.com/assets/images/axeman.gif

It's always gratifying to hear that war-profiteers are being locked away.

Also, a question: I heard an interview with an author who recently wrote a book on Bout. The author said that Bout not only sold weapons to the Taliban, al-Qaida, etc., but the United States. Can anyone verify/correct that?

Good riddance indeed, but I suspect unfourtunatly we will have a hydra: two more will rise to take his place!

It's always gratifying to hear that war-profiteers are being locked away.

Also, a question: I heard an interview with an author who recently wrote a book on Bout. The author said that Bout not only sold weapons to the Taliban, al-Qaida, etc., but the United States. Can anyone verify/correct that?

Well he offered his services after 9/11 to the FBI and CIA to fight the Taliban. I don't know if that included weapons

It's always gratifying to hear that war-profiteers are being locked away.

Also, a question: I heard an interview with an author who recently wrote a book on Bout. The author said that Bout not only sold weapons to the Taliban, al-Qaida, etc., but the United States. Can anyone verify/correct that?

I wouldn't be surprised. Guys like him will sell to anyone.

let the punishment fit the crime, a bullet through each major joint then one to the head.

let the punishment fit the crime, a bullet through each major joint then one to the head.

Even better. Let one of the many weapons he´s sold seal his fate. Like, take him to the middle of the ocean and nuke his ass. That´s more fitting.

It's always gratifying to hear that war-profiteers are being locked away.

Also, a question: I heard an interview with an author who recently wrote a book on Bout. The author said that Bout not only sold weapons to the Taliban, al-Qaida, etc., but the United States. Can anyone verify/correct that?

Since he was KGB during the Soviet-Afghan War and then sold weapons to the Northern Alliance (he switched sides after the fall of Kabul in 1996, as the cash-strapped NA couldn't really afford him anymore). http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/entity.jsp?entity=victor_bout
The above article talks about his links to AQ and the Taliban through Pakistan's ISI, which is really a much larger issue...

I love posts like this:


"OMG he is so evil for causing violence and suffering, lets torture and then brutally murder him!"


Hypocrits.

I love posts like this:


"OMG he is so evil for causing violence and suffering, lets torture and then brutally murder him!"


Hypocrits.

I will now invoke Godwin's Law and say that if the Allies had captured say....oh I don't know, der Fuhrer himself in Berlin, I think everyone on the planet would be calling for his head. There are levels of evil that even the most pacifist of people would be seething with bloodlust. For a man that actively makes a massive amount of money from genocide, I think death is too good for him.

i don't necessarily disagree with "an eye for an eye" 'justice' when there is no possibility of rehabilitation. this guy is clearly without concience or morality, therefore i'd have no problem with suspending mine if i was to deal with his plight.



Im not really taking a shot at people wanting his execusion so much as I am taking a shot at the manner in which people want him executed.

I will now invoke Godwin's Law and say that if the Allies had captured say....oh I don't know, der Fuhrer himself in Berlin, I think everyone on the planet would be calling for his head. There are levels of evil that even the most pacifist of people would be seething with bloodlust. For a man that actively makes a massive amount of money from genocide, I think death is too good for him.

Somehow I don't see Gandhi or MLK, Jr. lining up to torture anyone.

Let due process be done and he be appropriately punished if found guilty.

I love posts like this:


"OMG he is so evil for causing violence and suffering, lets torture and then brutally murder him!"


Hypocrits.

i don't necessarily disagree with "an eye for an eye" 'justice' when there is no possibility of rehabilitation. this guy is clearly without concience or morality, therefore i'd have no problem with suspending mine if i was to deal with his plight.

I love posts like this:


"OMG he is so evil for causing violence and suffering, lets torture and then brutally murder him!"


Hypocrits.

I'm saying he deserves it, not that I support him actually getting it.

Im not really taking a shot at people wanting his execusion so much as I am taking a shot at the manner in which people want him executed.

i see execution as a lesser punishment than life in prison. if the guy suffers before dying it makes his death more relevant to his crimes. and you never know, he might repent before the final bullet. then he get's to suffer longer because most people don't agree with me. there are few crimes that i believe deserve actual punishment (most should be dealt with by rehabilitation) but this is one of them.

When executing people can bring others back to life, then we can discuss that. Until then, waving torches and shouting for blood accomplishes nothing.

Aww, that sucks. I've never heard of him, but he sounds pretty cool.

When executing people can bring others back to life, then we can discuss that. Until then, waving torches and shouting for blood accomplishes nothing.

When eliminating certain people can prevent others from being killed, then we can discuss that. Until the....wait..

let the punishment fit the crime...

Sell him as a weapon?

But I thought more guns made the world a safer place? Or is that only in America?

When eliminating certain people can prevent others from being killed, then we can discuss that. Until the....wait..

Nice!

next stop defying the capitalist corporations that create a false consciousness over the populations of the Western world, then=PROFIT! no wait um no profit, just betterness yeah, betterness

Good fucking riddance. Hang the bastard.
But who’ll supply the gallows?

Mr. Bout had the last batch!

Also, Lord of War sucked.

I have a weird sort of respect for that guy. He is a businessman is every sense of the word. Never took sides, he just did his job. Its not like he killed anybody. Guns don't kill people lest we forget, people kill people.

I have a weird sort of respect for that guy. He is a businessman is every sense of the word. Never took sides, he just did his job. Its not like he killed anybody. Guns don't kill people lest we forget, people kill people.

Nevermind that nearly everyone of his countless sales were illegal under national and international law.

Sell him as a weapon?

LOL!

I have a weird sort of respect for that guy. He is a businessman is every sense of the word. Never took sides, he just did his job. Its not like he killed anybody. Guns don't kill people lest we forget, people kill people.

Yeah, same here.

Nevermind that nearly everyone of his countless sales were illegal under national and international law.

True, but that is beside the point. This guy had balls and skills for dangerous work. You have to give him credit for that.

Who knows, maybe he has a few friends left in high places that will bail him out.

Yeah, same here.



True, but that is beside the point. This guy had balls and skills for dangerous work. You have to give him credit for that.

Who knows, maybe he has a few friends left in high places that will bail him out.

Or they sold him out for a better deal, as when you deal with large amounts of money the individual no longer matters. (this means the end justifies the means).
I wonder what that guy could have done if he hadn't been an arms dealer, i know a metalsmith.

Lord of War did not suck. It was quite awesome. (Though Blood Diamond was a better picture of the conflicts)

While horrid, Viktor Bout is a small fry next to the biggest arms dealers- specifically, the politicians who start and perpetuate conflict and use people like him as their proxies. His arrest will change nothing in the grand scheme of things.

Even better. Let one of the many weapons he´s sold seal his fate. Like, take him to the middle of the ocean and nuke his ass. That´s more fitting.

But think of the fish!

:gundge: :D

or don't...

Congratulations. Every single one of you calling for torture or execution has now earned a stamp of "hypocrisy" in my book unless you otherwise call for that sort of thing anyway.

Me, I think he deserves a fair trial and then proper sentencing, which should involve HEAVY community service on an unprecedented scale. He'd better pay back for everything he did in a way that actually helps others rather than just satisfying some archaic need for revenge.

Congratulations. Every single one of you calling for torture or execution has now earned a stamp of "hypocrisy" in my book unless you otherwise call for that sort of thing anyway.

Me, I think he deserves a fair trial and then proper sentencing, which should involve HEAVY community service on an unprecedented scale. He'd better pay back for everything he did in a way that actually helps others rather than just satisfying some archaic need for revenge.

Community service? Seriously?

No, life in prison or death, those are the only two acceptable options.

Link (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/asia/article3498795.ece)

Viktor Bout, a Russian arms deal who inspired the film Lord of War has been arrested in Thailand...

When you get to Hell, tell Satan "Hey" for me before he rams a red-hot pitchfork up your ass, Viktor.

I have a weird sort of respect for that guy. He is a businessman is every sense of the word. Never took sides, he just did his job. Its not like he killed anybody. Guns don't kill people lest we forget, people kill people.

Odds are that someone of his questionable morality would have had no qualms with killing someone and he probably has in the past.

Community service? Seriously?

No, life in prison or death, those are the only two acceptable options.

Please note that I said on an unprecedented scale. I'm not talking about inmates picking up garbage here. I'm talking about serious world affecting programs, preferably geared towards aid and relief in those war-torn areas he's been selling arms to.

Good, this monster is probably responsible for the deaths of 10's of thousands.

Please note that I said on an unprecedented scale. I'm not talking about inmates picking up garbage here. I'm talking about serious world affecting programs, preferably geared towards aid and relief in those war-torn areas he's been selling arms to.

why don't we just send him out into a minefield, to clear the mines? Without minefield clearing equipment.

It'd be a public service, ironic, and would be a sort of death penalty.

why don't we just send him out into a minefield, to clear the mines? Without minefield clearing equipment.

It'd be a public service, ironic, and would be a sort of death penalty.

That gets a Fonz: AAAAAAAAAAAYYYYYYYY! :cool:

why don't we just send him out into a minefield, to clear the mines? Without minefield clearing equipment.

It'd be a public service, ironic, and would be a sort of death penalty.

Because that wouldn't accomplish anything except satisfying an archaic desire for revenge. If we want to stop things like this from happening in the future, we need to rise above that kind of idiotic nonsense and punish appropriately.

Because that wouldn't accomplish anything except satisfying an archaic desire for revenge. If we want to stop things like this from happening in the future, we need to rise above that kind of idiotic nonsense and punish appropriately.

I think it would send a pretty clear message to the other arms dealers, we catch you, you go into a minefield. Seems awfully appropriate to me.

And giving "heavy" community service wouldn't deter anybody, especially the kind of people who are dealing these weapons.

Something interesting from the end of "Lord of War" that I figured I post:

"While private gunrunners continue to thrive, the world's biggest arms suppliers are the U.S., U.K., Russia, France, and China. They are also the five permanent members on the U.N. Security Council."

If he's the "merchant of death" what does that make us?

I think it would send a pretty clear message to the other arms dealers, we catch you, you go into a minefield. Seems awfully appropriate to me.

And giving "heavy" community service wouldn't deter anybody, especially the kind of people who are dealing these weapons.

What makes you think a death penalty would be a deterrent? Capital punishment, regardless of the form, has been consistently shown to not only not deter crime, but it in fact increases violent crime in areas where it is employed. (Or at the very least a correlation is demonstrated. Obviously correlation does not prove causation, but when it happens everytime, it's a reasonable assumption to make.)

Furthermore, this whole idea of deterring people from committing crimes by punishing them harshly does not work. It has never worked, and if it did we wouldn't have these problems.

You stop crime by targeting the sources, such as poverty, lack of education, and so on and so forth.. You prevent reoffense by rehabilitation and by punishments that help the offender understand what they did was wrong, why it was wrong, as well as helping them reintegrate into society.

Obviously, this is a special case, but that simply means it needs a special brand of rehabilitation, and I think a community service in the sense of working with programs targeted at disaster and other forms of relief in the areas where the arms dealer sold arms would not only be poetic justice, but it would work. Think about it. At the very least it'll help others, which makes it far more valuable than any sort of attempt to send a "message" which will never be acknowledged.

Obviously, this is a special case, but that simply means it needs a special brand of rehabilitation, and I think a community service in the sense of working with programs targeted at disaster and other forms of relief in the areas where the arms dealer sold arms would not only be poetic justice, but it would work. Think about it. At the very least it'll help others, which makes it far more valuable than any sort of attempt to send a "message" which will never be acknowledged.

The "special brand of rehabilitation" would be found in the minefield. Let's say that we give him some hand-me-down minesweeping equipment, and tell him that he will work to clear mines until the time when he has cleared all the mines worldwide, or he dies.

Now this would obviously be a public service for those in the minecleared area, and would teach this man a lesson about what the weapons he sells do to the people who he sells them to.

It would also get back to the people who are tempted to go down this path (who would never, or very rarely, admit the temptation on any sort of survey conducted on crime deterrence) to becoming an arms dealer that this person had to clear mines for the rest of their life, and that would be something that would make them think twice about dealing weapons.

The fact that data doesn't reflect the actual amount of crime deterrence occuring because of various penalties scare those who are tempted doesn't mean that they aren't working. If you have ever wanted to do something but stopped because you didn't want to get in trouble, then you know that deterrence works. Either this works in all cases, or these people are missing a part in them which makes them think about consequences, and should probably be put in jail or killed because they will just return to their previous profitable lives without remorse.

This man either did not appreciate the consequences of his actions, and needs to be taught, or is a monster, and needs to be destroyed.

Please note that I said on an unprecedented scale. I'm not talking about inmates picking up garbage here. I'm talking about serious world affecting programs, preferably geared towards aid and relief in those war-torn areas he's been selling arms to.

How is one guy going to carry out 'serious world affecting programs' in war-torn nations? You need manpower and money. If you have the former, it's obviously not his punishment any more, and the latter, I'm pretty sure taking all his money and making him do aid work is still pathetic compared to execution or life imprisonment.

Also, how do you reconcile being against Viktor Bout's death penalty or imprisonment with being in an organisation whose purpose is to kill those who deserve it (on a good day)?

Something interesting from the end of "Lord of War" that I figured I post:

"While private gunrunners continue to thrive, the world's biggest arms suppliers are the U.S., U.K., Russia, France, and China. They are also the five permanent members on the U.N. Security Council."

If he's the "merchant of death" what does that make us?

liberators and freedom fighters

*nods*

How is one guy going to carry out 'serious world affecting programs' in war-torn nations? You need manpower and money. If you have the former, it's obviously not his punishment any more, and the latter, I'm pretty sure taking all his money and making him do aid work is still pathetic compared to execution or life imprisonment.
Good question. I kinda thought the answer was obvious though: you make him donate all of his money to organizations that already exist and then have him work with those organizations, under their command, so to speak.

Also, how do you reconcile being against Viktor Bout's death penalty or imprisonment with being in an organisation whose purpose is to kill those who deserve it (on a good day)?
Another good question. I reconcile it with the fact that I am a realistic pacifist. This means that I do everything I can to prevent the need for violence, but if I have to fight, I will fight. (And my job in the organization won't be directly related to killing people anyway. I'll be more the guy who maintains the nuclear reactors onboard aircraft carriers and the like. There's more to the military than your common foot soldier, you know.)

When you get to Hell, tell Satan "Hey" for me before he rams a red-hot pitchfork up your ass, Viktor.

lol

Something interesting from the end of "Lord of War" that I figured I post:

"While private gunrunners continue to thrive, the world's biggest arms suppliers are the U.S., U.K., Russia, France, and China. They are also the five permanent members on the U.N. Security Council."

If he's the "merchant of death" what does that make us?

legitimate?

legitimate?

Under whose authority? In whose eyes? I'm not necessarily saying you're wrong, but I am asking why it is true.

Good question. I kinda thought the answer was obvious though: you make him donate all of his money to organizations that already exist and then have him work with those organizations, under their command, so to speak.

Yeah, but like I said, that isn't really comparable to a prison sentence, since thousands of people are happy to do it of their own free will. Rehabilitation is nice and all, but profiting from genocide should still have unpleasant consequences, prison is the least we can do.

Also, from a practical standpoint, I don't see how this could possibly work. No matter how much security you have, allowing the head of an international arms dealing organisation to roam around in the countries in which he has the most connections will invariably lead to some UN/Amnesty etc. mission being attacked by heavily armed mercenaries and Mr Bout's body conveniently never being found.

Another good question. I reconcile it with the fact that I am a realistic pacifist. This means that I do everything I can to prevent the need for violence, but if I have to fight, I will fight. (And my job in the organization won't be directly related to killing people anyway. I'll be more the guy who maintains the nuclear reactors onboard aircraft carriers and the like. There's more to the military than your common foot soldier, you know.)

Fair enough, but as a nuclear reactor technician, for example, how do you plan to prevent this violence?

Obviously, this is a special case, but that simply means it needs a special brand of rehabilitation, and I think a community service in the sense of working with programs targeted at disaster and other forms of relief in the areas where the arms dealer sold arms would not only be poetic justice, but it would work. Think about it. At the very least it'll help others, which makes it far more valuable than any sort of attempt to send a "message" which will never be acknowledged.
It's not always possible to rehabilitate everyone. Also, I think that there are some people who don't deserve the opportunity to be rehabilitated, even if they could be.

legitimate?

Legitimate merchants of death?