NationStates Jolt Archive

Most people, in my opinion, don't worship "God." They set up a religion, purportedly for the purpose of worshipping a specified god and, once it's up and running, discard the god, and worship the empty structure of "religion."

Religion, as in "my religion is the one true religion and you're all heretics doomed to Hell." A structure of rules, rituals and opinions which has been substituted for God is what is worshipped, no deity is involved except as an excuse for the structure.

What do you think?

What do you think?I think you would really enjoy the social criticism in Small Gods by Terry Pratchett. :)

That's a good definition of religion. ASD

RhynoDD;13503726']I don't think. My thetans do all my thinking for me.

HAIL XENU!

I don't think. My thetans do all my thinking for me.

i dont know anyone that i would put into that category. i know plenty of people who seem to be atheists who go to church.

I think the thread gives me a headache.

What do you think?
Very true. It's partly why I'm quite keen on usurping the concept of God from under the dominion of religious organisations. If religions themselves do not hold exclusive rights to divinity then their mandate for oppression is stripped from them.

Heresy in the name of God, eh? It's not exactly catchy, but it has a nice ring to it.

Very true. It's partly why I'm quite keen on usurping the concept of God from under the dominion of religious organisations. If religions themselves do not hold exclusive rights to divinity then their mandate for oppression is stripped from them.

Heresy in the name of God, eh? It's not exactly catchy, but it has a nice ring to it.

i hear what your saying but without religion what IS there to believe about god?

I think you would really enjoy the social criticism in Small Gods by Terry Pratchett. :)

Sheer brilliance. So abstract, yet at the same time so many parallels. Makes you realise how crazy the world is.

i hear what your saying but without religion what IS there to believe about god?

I believe everything God tells me about her and the universe she created.

I believe in one God. My religion is my method of worshiping him. Pretty much simple as that. lol I couldn't imagine myself as anything other than Islamic. Atheist maybe but not permanently.

Most people, in my opinion, don't worship "God." They set up a religion, purportedly for the purpose of worshipping a specified god and, once it's up and running, discard the god, and worship the empty structure of "religion."

Religion, as in "my religion is the one true religion and you're all heretics doomed to Hell." A structure of rules, rituals and opinions which has been substituted for God is what is worshipped, no deity is involved except as an excuse for the structure.

What do you think?
I agree. Especially among fundamentalists of any religion, they seem to worship the traditions, culture, rituals, etc. I consider it idolatry.
That's a good definition of religion. ASD
Not necessarily. Religion is a very broad term.
(Unless you mean "good definition" as in "good, bad definition," as in, "a definition which adequately defines a poor example of what it is defining," as in...I'll stop now. You know what I mean.)

Most people, in my opinion, don't worship "God." They set up a religion, purportedly for the purpose of worshipping a specified god and, once it's up and running, discard the god, and worship the empty structure of "religion."

Religion, as in "my religion is the one true religion and you're all heretics doomed to Hell." A structure of rules, rituals and opinions which has been substituted for God is what is worshipped, no deity is involved except as an excuse for the structure.

What do you think?
I agree and don't have anything to argue against that.

Some of the churches around here agree with you too and say that religion and tradition are dead concepts that don't work. They say that instead of following religious rules and rituals one should strive for a personal relationship with God. I pray at home instead of going there because I think they are still partly stuck in old traditions even though they are moving towards a less regulated more personalized spirituality. If you ask one of them "Are you religious?" you'll get the answer "No, I'm a Christian."

i hear what your saying but without religion what IS there to believe about god?
I asked this question the other way around, at first. What is there to believe about God that all Religions rely on? What is the common link behind ideas about God? What is it that give religions their authority to speak?

Then it hit me. I don't just mean the idea - I mean the answer actually hit me: Revelation. Religions are linked by the concepts of spiritual experience through the moment of personal revelation; both as a shocking initial thing and as an ongoing process of prayer, meditation, transcendence or whatever. Our ideas of God are presented to us as an explanation for these occurrences, and our experiencing of them presented as "proof" of their correctness.

The obvious fact remains that Religion is responsible for the explanations they put on the experience, but they are not responsible for the experience itself. Maybe it's a sort of self delusion, maybe it's a combination of several environmental factors, maybe it's some extraplanar being trying to communicate with us, maybe it's some renewed sense of perspective or empathy rising to the surface, but whatever it is, even if Religion creates the circumstances that encourage it, the actual cause for it is something beyond their control. Whatever that cause is, that is what we call God; the entity or process responsible for the revelatory experience.

I think that's true in a lot of cases.

My religious past is an example. So much ceremony, ritual and memorization of prayers left us in a state where we really didn't think about God all that much.

At the same time, there are religions where I would say that problem isn't so severe. If a religious group can keep their focus on God and not on the structure so much, then they'll do much better.

Christ is my life. I live, breathe, and think Christ, as opposed to being a Christian during sundays and wednesdays.

I asked this question the other way around, at first. What is there to believe about God that all Religions rely on? What is the common link behind ideas about God? What is it that give religions their authority to speak?

Then it hit me. I don't just mean the idea - I mean the answer actually hit me: Revelation. Religions are linked by the concepts of spiritual experience through the moment of personal revelation; both as a shocking initial thing and as an ongoing process of prayer, meditation, transcendence or whatever. Our ideas of God are presented to us as an explanation for these occurrences, and our experiencing of them presented as "proof" of their correctness.

The obvious fact remains that Religion is responsible for the explanations they put on the experience, but they are not responsible for the experience itself. Maybe it's a sort of self delusion, maybe it's a combination of several environmental factors, maybe it's some extraplanar being trying to communicate with us, maybe it's some renewed sense of perspective or empathy rising to the surface, but whatever it is, even if Religion creates the circumstances that encourage it, the actual cause for it is something beyond their control. Whatever that cause is, that is what we call God; the entity or process responsible for the revelatory experience.

so your belief about god is the result of a personal revelation? what sort of thing does that lead you to believe about god?

I asked this question the other way around, at first. What is there to believe about God that all Religions rely on? What is the common link behind ideas about God? What is it that give religions their authority to speak?

Then it hit me. I don't just mean the idea - I mean the answer actually hit me: Revelation. Religions are linked by the concepts of spiritual experience through the moment of personal revelation; both as a shocking initial thing and as an ongoing process of prayer, meditation, transcendence or whatever. Our ideas of God are presented to us as an explanation for these occurrences, and our experiencing of them presented as "proof" of their correctness.

The obvious fact remains that Religion is responsible for the explanations they put on the experience, but they are not responsible for the experience itself. Maybe it's a sort of self delusion, maybe it's a combination of several environmental factors, maybe it's some extraplanar being trying to communicate with us, maybe it's some renewed sense of perspective or empathy rising to the surface, but whatever it is, even if Religion creates the circumstances that encourage it, the actual cause for it is something beyond their control. Whatever that cause is, that is what we call God; the entity or process responsible for the revelatory experience.


if you had replied differently this is the response that i would have given you back--that religion is just the opinion of some guys who lived 2000+ years ago. their experience of god is not more important than YOUR experience of god.

Christ is my life. I live, breathe, and think Christ,...then please get nailed to a cross :rolleyes:

the unknown is my friend. there are no wars among it and no "hell" as such.
as far as i know, it is only human priests who have ever claimed it or they, has any desire what so ever to be "worshiped".

all this devils, demons, angels and gods bussiness are labels humans, some humans, for various reasons of their own, have come up with.

our invisible friends, again as far as i can tell, had nothing to do with it, nor it with them.

=^^=
.../\...

then please get nailed to a cross :rolleyes:


Are you calling for my death? I think that is frowned upon here at NS.

I worship god. I am part of an organized religon but I don't view my religon as all of that stuff but as serving god

Are you calling for my death? I think that is frowned upon here at NS.If you want to follow Christ I expect you to do so in every aspect. Btw nobody dies from a few hours on a cross, some Philippinos do that every year.
But really, I think you are a helpless nutcase if you make statements like the one you made.

Most people, in my opinion, don't worship "God." They set up a religion, purportedly for the purpose of worshipping a specified god and, once it's up and running, discard the god, and worship the empty structure of "religion."

Unfortunately, with regards to the average person you're correct. This said, I do believe there are real believers, and it is only that small cadre of believers that takes home any true benefit from their faith. This doesn't just apply to religion - virtually anything that people can twist to their purpose and use as leverage over others they will, no matter how petty and no matter what they destroy in the process.

Zilam, I believe you could report that to the mods.
It's not all that much better then the stuff that got DCD permabanned.

Christ is my life. I live, breathe, and think Christ, as opposed to being a Christian during sundays and wednesdays.

It's interesting how you apparently still own a computer, then...

http://russellsteapot.com/images/comics/2007/Image043.jpg

so your belief about god is the result of a personal revelation?
Kinda. It's not so much a belief about God that came out of personal revelation; more an openness to the process by which a belief about God arises and a framework by which meaningful discussion with people about what they mean by God can be conducted.

what sort of thing does that lead you to believe about god?
What it has taught me is that whatever God is, it is a natural and real phenomenon of which people have some awareness. I have come to believe that God is the personification of the other party in our relationship with the world in which we find ourselves, where the world is given a character and personality of its own as a result of the relationships of the living things that compose it, and to which each of us contribute. I have come to this belief as a result of unifying the religious experiences of everyone I've talked to about it and looking for the common factors, but remain open to change.

if you had replied differently this is the response that i would have given you back--that religion is just the opinion of some guys who lived 2000+ years ago. their experience of god is not more important than YOUR experience of god.
Their experience is not necessarily more important, no. But I am a staunch proponent of the "Blind Man's Elephant" theory of God; that each of us is revealed a different part of the whole picture in our constrained interpretations of what we perceive, and that we can, through dialogue, improve our understanding of that picture.

Obviously, we don't know whether or not we can trust what people say about their experiences. But truth exists between the lines. The trick is in finding out what we can share in our genuine experience and what is convenient excuse, and I believe we can overcome that barrier through engagement with each other.

Kinda. It's not so much a belief about God that came out of personal revelation; more an openness to the process by which a belief about God arises and a framework by which meaningful discussion with people about what they mean by God can be conducted.


What it has taught me is that whatever God is, it is a natural and real phenomenon of which people have some awareness. I have come to believe that God is the personification of the other party in our relationship with the world in which we find ourselves, where the world is given a character and personality of its own as a result of the relationships of the living things that compose it, and to which each of us contribute. I have come to this belief as a result of unifying the religious experiences of everyone I've talked to about it and looking for the common factors, but remain open to change.


Their experience is not necessarily more important, no. But I am a staunch proponent of the "Blind Man's Elephant" theory of God; that each of us is revealed a different part of the whole picture in our constrained interpretations of what we perceive, and that we can, through dialogue, improve our understanding of that picture.

Obviously, we don't know whether or not we can trust what people say about their experiences. But truth exists between the lines. The trick is in finding out what we can share in our genuine experience and what is convenient excuse, and I believe we can overcome that barrier through engagement with each other.

nice post. i like your point of view

Zilam, I believe you could report that to the mods.
It's not all that much better then the stuff that got DCD permabanned.
It is a truth universally acknowledged that an active troll in posession of an aggressive temperament must be in want of a ban. However little known the feelings or views of such a troll may be on his first entering a forum, this truth is so well fixed in the minds of the resident posters, that he is considered as the rightful property of some one or other of the moderators.

I mostly like Kamsaki-Myu's view of God even though I personally believe God is just observing most of the time and expects us to handle our own lives with a little divine help when we need it the most but only a little.
It's interesting how you apparently still own a computer, then...
<comic>
That comic only needs 1 more square to sum up Christianity pretty well, a square where Jesus goes "Well, I took your punishment and died for your sins on the cross so you may enter heaven even though you don't deserve it.".

If you want to follow Christ I expect you to do so in every aspect. Btw nobody dies from a few hours on a cross, some Philippinos do that every year.
But really, I think you are a helpless nutcase if you make statements like the one you made.

I'm not sure why, but I suspect that if you were ever to inject your views into a work of fiction, you'd have about as much subtlety as C.S. Lewis. :p

"Strangers are automatically heretics, and so are fed to the sacred apes." With that they began to drag Cugel and Garstang over the sharp stones of the fore-shore while the beautiful children of the village danced joyously to either side.

I mostly like Kamsaki-Myu's view of God even though I personally believe God is just observing most of the time and expects us to handle our own lives with a little divine help when we need it the most but only a little.

That comic only needs 1 more square to sum up Christianity pretty well, a square where Jesus goes "Well, I took your punishment and died for your sins on the cross so you may enter heaven even though you don't deserve it.".

Because the brutal torture killing of an innocent volunteer should always be necessary for forgiveness.

Remember, kids, never forgive without somebody being bloodily slaughtered, otherwise, its not real forgiveness.

That's God Law, and he can't change it and just start forgiving out of pure grace without death and human sacrifice. That's just absurd.

I think the thread gives me a headache.

Only this thread? Count yourself lucky, then.

*snip*

Not that I believe it but this is similar to my idea of the only way in which I might accept what we could term as a God:

If we take God as omniscient and omnipotent, well....I imagine that's a rather boring existence.

To truly provide free will and be part of a truly interesting experience, I would separate myself into an infinite amount of parts, a kind of Big Bang if you will.

The sole imperative, is that these parts, although initially forced apart through such a Godly explosion, are ultimately attracted to each other - some may repel individually, but as a whole they're attracted, this is because, in effect, they are one.

Thus, higher and higher forms of complicated matter arise, from basic matter, to molecules, to interactions , basic life and so on. Some forms die out, others spring up but, overall, the effect is to attract and create more complex forms.

Who knows what else is out there but from what we know, humans are the most complex organism around. We have now developed complex emotions, starting to understand and manipulate our world.

What we call religious experiences may be brief flashes of insight into the whole - the realisation that everything is connected and that we're part of something bigger. We are all, essentially, One (making God omnipresent as well ; )

This is from a long debate on NSG a long time ago and it was a total aside to the main argument - which I didn't come out of particularly well but I was new and unaccustomed to the mores of NSG.

It seems to match what you're saying and, as I said, I'm not a fixed proponent of it but on my more hippy days I can entertain it.

Most people, in my opinion, don't worship "God." They set up a religion, purportedly for the purpose of worshipping a specified god and, once it's up and running, discard the god, and worship the empty structure of "religion."

Religion, as in "my religion is the one true religion and you're all heretics doomed to Hell." A structure of rules, rituals and opinions which has been substituted for God is what is worshipped, no deity is involved except as an excuse for the structure.

What do you think?


I mostly agree the vast majority of those who perport to worship God, don't not really.

That comic only needs 1 more square to sum up Christianity pretty well, a square where Jesus goes "Well, I took your punishment and died for your sins on the cross so you may enter heaven even though you don't deserve it.".

So... you're saying that with Christianity, it doesn't really matter one way or another if you do what the bible or Jesus say, you'll go to heaven anyway?
Then why bother?

Most people, in my opinion, don't worship "God." They set up a religion, purportedly for the purpose of worshipping a specified god and, once it's up and running, discard the god, and worship the empty structure of "religion."

Religion, as in "my religion is the one true religion and you're all heretics doomed to Hell." A structure of rules, rituals and opinions which has been substituted for God is what is worshipped, no deity is involved except as an excuse for the structure.

What do you think?
I think it's a drastic understatement. Religion baselessly claims to know what this "god" wants, labelling those who claim this god might want something else as heretics when they have no more authority in knowing what "god" wants than anyone else when they can't even prove the existance of the being they claim to speak for. It pushes its dogma through mass brainwashing (scare-tactics like threatening eternal torture, the demonizing of rivals like other superstitions through the condemnation of polytheism, astrology, etc... and of course demonizing skepticism by baselessly claiming that doubt comes from "the devil". Religion plays a neverending game of good cop bad cop best described by George Carlin:

"Religion has actually CONVINCED people that there's an invisible man, living in the sky, who watches everything you do, every minute of every day, and the invisible man has a special list of ten things he does not want you to do. And if you do any of these ten things, he has a special place, full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish, where he will send you to and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry forever and ever 'til the end of time... but he loves you."