NationStates Jolt Archive

So far, this is the document published by the colombian intelligence about the links of the Presidents of Venezuela, Hugo Chávez, and Ecuador, Rafael Correa, with the guerrilla Fuerzas Armadas Revolucionarias de Colombia, FARC.

I am not stating this document is legitimate. I am just saying this is the document the colombian authorities alleged to have found in possession of Raúl Reyes, the guerrilla chief killed in a military operation in Ecuador's territory during the weekend.

Right now, Colombia is going to denounce Chávez in front of the United Nations for consorting with a terrorist organization and for working towards the destabilization of a neighbouring country. This document is going to be the main proof of the allegation.

This is the link:

http://www.eluniversal.com/2008/03/03/documento1.pdf

Of course, it is in spanish. I'll work on a proper translation and place it here so you can read it properly.

Meanwhile, you are free to comment.

In before the Chavez supporters denounce it as fake and the anti-Chavez hold it as conclusive evidence.

I'll wait and see what the UN makes of it.

If they managed to get it off a computer, why is it a PDF copy of a hard copy?

If they managed to get it off a computer, why is it a PDF copy of a hard copy?

No, the computer archives are another matter altogether. This was a physical document. What you saw was a PDF archive that shows the scanned image of the papers, again according to colombian authorities.

It seems that the computer data is more compromising, but I think its veracity can be hardly proven. Anyone can create, alter, and add data in a hard drive.

No, the computer archives are another matter altogether. This was a physical document. What you saw was a PDF archive that shows the scanned image of the papers, again according to colombian authorities.

It seems that the computer data is more compromising, but I think its veracity can be hardly proven. Anyone can create, alter, and add data in a hard drive.

Every single article I've read about this only mentions computer files. There is no mention of any other information found. Do you have a link? No importa si esta en Español.

If true, then the nations in South America need to begin to exhort pressure on both Chavez and Correa to break off their ties with FARC.

If they managed to get it off a computer, why is it a PDF copy of a hard copy?

Aelosia already posted that this isn't conclusive evidence. As far as Chávez goes, to me, he's a lose cannon and needs to be stopped before he drags in any other South American countries. He already started with Ecuador and Bolivia, let us hope it doesn't get more complicated than it already is consider FARC acts of its own accord. And we all know he's also extremely good friends with Fidel Castro and subsequently with his brother Raúl. And as someone else stated, we need to see what the UN decides. Of course, whatever it decides must not involve foreign help. Meaning, USA STAY THE F*CK OUT OF THIS CONFLICT!!

Well considering Chavez just deployed a huge military force to the Columbia border, right after Ecuador did the same...

Smells like trouble.

Well considering Chavez just deployed a huge military force to the Columbia border, right after Ecuador did the same...

Smells like trouble.

Hugo Chávez actually thinks of himself as the new Simón Bolívar and, in his ambitions to immitate a great a man (and Chávez ain't a great man), he's destroying his country and causing major pain and suffering to all Venezuelans, and Ecuatorians alike, not to mention the strife he might be causing in Colombia. Colombia, a country that has had enough problems with it's own as it is. He ought to be killed, seriously.

Every single article I've read about this only mentions computer files. There is no mention of any other information found. Do you have a link? No importa si esta en Español.

The letter I linked to, it mainly implies that the Ministry of Defense of Ecuador tried to establish unilateral conversations with the FARC, and help them to establish bases in Ecuador territory, and that Chávez is one of the most trusted friends of the organization. That piece of information is included on a physical document encountered in the site by colombian authorities, then again, according to them.

You read about a different set of archives, contained in a portable laptop computer found in the same place, that states that the leaders of the FARC received 300 millions of dollars from the venezuelan goverment. Those archives haven't been published yet. Noone but the highest priority officials of the Uribe administration has access to them, although they sent them to the International Court and the United Nations as evidence. As soon as they are published, I'll link to them. Then again, all of this is according to sources of the Bogotá goverment. (For us journalists, clarifying sources is pretty important).

Aelosia already posted that this isn't conclusive evidence. As far as Chávez goes, to me, he's a lose cannon and needs to be stopped before he drags in any other South American countries. He already started with Ecuador and Bolivia, let us hope it doesn't get more complicated than it already is consider FARC acts of its own accord. And we all know he's also extremely good friends with Fidel Castro and subsequently with his brother Raúl. And as someone else stated, we need to see what the UN decides. Of course, whatever it decides must not involve foreign help. Meaning, USA STAY THE F*CK OUT OF THIS CONFLICT!!

Exactly. This isn't conclusive so far, at least about Venezuela, although it accuses directly the goverment of Ecuador and the administration of Correa. Even more, you need to believe in the word of the colombian officers who are presenting the evidence that it wasn't falsified, or is fake. At least for now.

And yes, I hope the US stays out of this. The situation already went worse when Chávez jumped in without proper reasons to do so. With the US around, things are for sure going to degenerate at a faster rate.

Well considering Chavez just deployed a huge military force to the Columbia border, right after Ecuador did the same...

Smells like trouble.

The armoured force, as I am writing this, is not yet deployed. It is leaving the military bases now. More likely it will arrive to the border by night, at venezuelan time. (East Coast, if you need a reference).

Was this the same thing that said FARC was after uranium by any chance?


*will take with heaping spoon of salt*

Was this the same thing that said FARC was after uranium by any chance?


*will take with heaping spoon of salt*

Nope. I have failed to see any credible source about the uranium thing. I guess so far that is an hyperbole caused by extreme paranoia and bias.

I wouldn't believe a bit about the uranium thing unless some crushing evidence is published.

Nope. I have failed to see any credible source about the uranium thing. I guess so far that is an hyperbole caused by extreme paranoia and bias.

I wouldn't believe a bit about the uranium thing unless some crushing evidence is published.

*shrug*

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601086&sid=aMPbNS8tsmVo&refer=latin_america

*shrug*

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601086&sid=aMPbNS8tsmVo&refer=latin_america

Check the live declaration of Naranjo, compare even with your link. The chief said his organization suspected the FARC could be interested in buying uranium. He said he had evidence on Chávez's money going to the FARC from the computer, but not about the uranium thing, he added that later.

Your smart journalist managed to crump both informations together so people relate the two. As far as I know, the computer had evidence regarding the money, but not about the uranium, the nuclear fuel part being just a suspicion of the chief.

Check the live declaration of Naranjo, compare even with your link. The chief said his organization suspected the FARC could be interested in buying uranium. He said he had evidence on Chávez's money going to the FARC from the computer, but not about the uranium thing, he added that later.

Your smart journalist managed to crump both informations together so people relate the two. As far as I know, the computer had evidence regarding the money, but not about the uranium, the nuclear fuel part being just a suspicion of the chief.

Hey, I agree with you - but don't forget the power of the media. I think it's utter bullsh*t.

You can't un-ring a bell, so for the next 5 or so years you'll have people going "OMFG! I can't BELIEVE we didn't attack FARC. They were looking for uranium/plutonium/nuclear bomb/anthrax/supported Al-Qaeda" etc etc

Hey, I agree with you - but don't forget the power of the media. I think it's utter bullsh*t.

You can't un-ring a bell, so for the next 5 or so years you'll have people going "OMFG! I can't BELIEVE we didn't attack FARC. They were looking for uranium/plutonium/nuclear bomb/anthrax/supported Al-Qaeda" etc etc

I am pretty aware of the power of the media. I earn my living wielding said power.

However, I believe that when you swing a too heavy double edged weapon in your hand, you need to be careful. Most of the guys out there, however, aren't satisfied with how much they earn, and they wield that weapon as maniacs around hoping to strike the right bell and get fame, a raise, and a better job place.

The most powerful magic of all human world is just words. Thanks to the illusion of time, words are a spell that can't be counterspelled or dispelled.

And yes, the FARC are bad enough as they are as to complicate things with hyperboles.

I am pretty aware of the power of the media. I earn my living wielding said power.
Apologies. I should have specified. :p
I meant the US mainstream media - a la the link I gave.

You can imagine if Fox etc picked up on this and later the retraction for it being "not quite accurate" would be small and lost somewhere in a segment between stories about the increase in food prices for pet ferrets and women's golf scores.

Apologies. I should have specified. :p
I meant the US mainstream media - a la the link I gave.

You can imagine if Fox etc picked up on this and later the retraction for it being "not quite accurate" would be small and lost somewhere in a segment between stories about the increase in food prices for pet ferrets and women's golf scores.

Yup, the reply and correction times and specifications are usually too vague.

Hugo Chávez actually thinks of himself as the new Simón Bolívar and, in his ambitions to immitate a great a man (and Chávez ain't a great man), he's destroying his country and causing major pain and suffering to all Venezuelans, and Ecuatorians alike

You mean, like suppressing illiteracy, granting free healthcare to the poor, curing half a million of people from eye disease in the whole sub-continent, strongly reducing the poverty rate, increasing the minimal wage, granting land to small farmers and having the highest economical growth of south america (including in the non-oil sector) ? Yeah, for sure, that causes major pain and suffering...

Meanwhile, you are free to comment.The bit about the economic ties to North Korea irritated me (9th preamb, I think).

The bit about the economic ties to North Korea irritated me (9th preamb, I think).

Indeed. Looks like as most new leftists, these people just think that someone who claims to have the same ideology as you must be your friend, partner, and share everything together.

I am soo thinking about Neesika's thread...

Apologies. I should have specified. :p
I meant the US mainstream media - a la the link I gave.

You can imagine if Fox etc picked up on this and later the retraction for it being "not quite accurate" would be small and lost somewhere in a segment between stories about the increase in food prices for pet ferrets and women's golf scores.

Oh gods, I know what you mean. Just try and watch CNN for a minute and you start realizing just how sensationalist and alarmist is the US media. And how much they terrorize the average US citizen. I lived in MI for 2 years and people always lived in fear, freaking out at what the press released or what was shown on MSNBC or CNN. Sad, really. That's why I consider that the US should stay away from this conflict altogether, Chávez truly despises the US, and the conflict could escalate to frightening proportions if stupid Bush Jr. gets involved.

Indeed. Looks like as most new leftists, these people just think that someone who claims to have the same ideology as you must be your friend, partner, and share everything together.

I am soo thinking about Neesika's thread...Tell me about it. The Left Party admonished a few of its European Parliamentarians for supporting a resolution condemning Cuban human rights violations on grounds that one shouldn't stab the socialist brothers there in the back. :rolleyes:

You mean, like suppressing illiteracy, granting free healthcare to the poor, curing half a million of people from eye disease in the whole sub-continent, strongly reducing the poverty rate, increasing the minimal wage, granting land to small farmers and having the highest economical growth of south america (including in the non-oil sector) ? Yeah, for sure, that causes major pain and suffering...

And your sources? By the way, ask a Venezuelan what he/she thinks about the current situation of his country. Chávez may have granted free healthcare and cured many of diseases, but his government has brought Venezuela into conflict with fellow nations and deployed militia to the Colombian border. Now, do tell me, is he a great man? Is his involvement with the FARC a noble enterprise or is that doing something for the economy of Venezuela? The FARC, a terrorist organization that has plunged Colombia into a no man's land and that constantly targets politicians and journalists and kidnaps without regard? (Read "Noticia de un secuestro", by Gabriel García Márquez. Check on what happened to Ingrid Betancourt, a French-Colombian candidate to the Presidency of Colombia in the late 90s.) Is his beef with Colombia justifiable or is he trying to live up to the standards and greatness of Simón Bolívar? Because let me tell you one thing, Chávez no le llega ni a los talones a Bolívar y lo que éste representó para la hermana Sur América. Entertain yourself into translating that.;)

By the way, ask a Venezuelan what he/she thinks about the current situation of his country.
I do believe there's one in this thread.....


Chávez no le llega ni a los talones a Bolívar y lo que éste representó para la hermana Sur América. Entertain yourself into translating that.;)

It's Spanish - not Tagalog. Give Kilobugya some credit.

You mean, like suppressing illiteracy, granting free healthcare to the poor, curing half a million of people from eye disease in the whole sub-continent, strongly reducing the poverty rate, increasing the minimal wage, granting land to small farmers and having the highest economical growth of south america (including in the non-oil sector) ? Yeah, for sure, that causes major pain and suffering...

No, but the high crime rate, inflation and shortages of basic goods are causing suffering. Also, as far as literacy goes a couple of reports from studies conducted by Venezuelan institutuons - including one from the Venezuelan government's former chief economic advisor who was appointed to that role by Chavez - has suggested that the Venezuelan literacy plan is no more effective than most other Latin American country's literacy programme, except that the Venezuelan one has cost 200 times more per person than their neighbour's.

Tell me about it. The Left Party admonished a few of its European Parliamentarians for supporting a resolution condemning Cuban human rights violations on grounds that one shouldn't stab the socialist brothers there in the back. :rolleyes:

Yeah, typical reaction. However, to be fair, conservatives tend to do the same thing. Look at the US supporting Pinochet as an example.

I'm so glad I am a relative moderate.

And your sources? By the way, ask a Venezuelan what he/she thinks about the current situation of his country.

Actually, the thing that brings me to great pain is the division he has brought to the country with his flaming rhetoric. The problem is that he has managed to keep people with bribes, tips and small gifts. However, the healthcare thing is good and I fully support that program, because it has worked. "Al César lo que es del César" ;)

He has done some nice things, but I keep opposing because overall, it hasn't pay back yet.

Chávez no le llega ni a los talones a Bolívar y lo que éste representó para la hermana Sur América. Entertain yourself into translating that.;)

Como bolivariana, sólo puedo extender mi apoyo a esa frase.

No, but the high crime rate, inflation and shortages of basic goods are causing suffering.

That is the truth and nothing more. This regime is causing as much pain as it is healing.

Also, as far as literacy goes a couple of reports from studies conducted by Venezuelan institutuons - including one from the Venezuelan government's former chief economic advisor who was appointed to that role by Chavez - has suggested that the Venezuelan literacy plan is no more effective than most other Latin American country's literacy programme, except that the Venezuelan one has cost 200 times more per person than their neighbour's.

The problem is that they give them an "education by proxy", and convince them that they are indeed prepared for an academic background. I have seen and talked to several people crying, (crying, really, weeping), that they lost three or four years preparing to enter an university in an Educational Mission, just to realize that they didn't learned anything of value, and that they can't just cop with the universitary academic content.

Sadly, they usually get expelled after failing several times. The program would be good, if it was realistic and honest with the people. "This is a base education so you can learn the basis and turn into a technical worker. No, you can't go and study medicine with this, ok?".

I do believe there's one in this thread....

To be honest, I don't think I cover the entire opinion matrix of the venezuelan population. You can also find venezuelans who speak marvels about the goverment. I am pretty sure Kilobugya has talked to more than one.

However, my opinion is still valid.

Yeah, typical reaction. However, to be fair, conservatives tend to do the same thing. Look at the US supporting Pinochet as an example.
Happens everywhere.

No, but the high crime rate,

That was a problem before Chávez. It went up during the beginning of Chávez presidency, but it seems to be going down again. It's not an easy thing to fix in a few years, anyway.

inflation

Inflation is lower on the Chávez years than it was during the 10 previous years. The problem still exists, but it's lower under Chávez than before.

and shortages of basic goods are causing suffering.

That's quite a recent attempt to undermine Chávez, very similar to the economical sabottage of 2002-2003. And it's also being fixed, through Mercal, agreements with Argentina, and the agrarian reform starting to give some tesult.

Also, as far as literacy goes a couple of reports from studies conducted by Venezuelan institutuons - including one from the Venezuelan government's former chief economic advisor who was appointed to that role by Chavez - has suggested that the Venezuelan literacy plan is no more effective than most other Latin American country's literacy programme, except that the Venezuelan one has cost 200 times more per person than their neighbour's.

Well, rather than uncertain and biased source, you should rather look at organisations like UNESCO, which acknowledged that Venezuela is now "free of illiteracy".

I do believe there's one in this thread.....



It's Spanish - not Tagalog. Give Kilobugya some credit.

"Chávez doesn't even compare to Bolívar nor what he represented to our fellow South America." That's what I wrote. And since we have a Venezuelan in the thread, why don't we let Aelosia tell us how it is in her country instead of speculating, eh? :) And I believe she just did.

I'm quoting Aelosia:
Actually, the thing that brings me to great pain is the division he has brought to the country with his flaming rhetoric. The problem is that he has managed to keep people with bribes, tips and small gifts. However, the healthcare thing is good and I fully support that program, because it has worked. "Al César lo que es del César"

He has done some nice things, but I keep opposing because overall, it hasn't pay back yet.

Y tengo que asentir contigo en tu último punto, Aelosia. Si el sistema de salud funciona, hay que darle crédito, al César lo que es del César.:)

He has done some nice things, but I keep opposing because overall, it hasn't pay back yet.


Things like literacy and education don't make visible inroads overnight. It'll take a generation for that to be obvious.

Things like literacy and education don't make visible inroads overnight. It'll take a generation for that to be obvious.

Errr.... Psychotic M... I'm sure I didn't post what you just quoted from me. That was part of a quote from Aelosia.:p

By the way, ask a Venezuelan what he/she thinks about the current situation of his country.

I was in Venezuela about one year ago, I spoke to plenty of Venezuelan ;) And I also know a lot of people who are from Venezuela, or french people living there. And well, remember that just one year ago Chávez was re-elected with 62.7%, in election certified to be fair by international observers.

Chávez may have granted free healthcare and cured many of diseases, but his government has brought Venezuela into conflict with fellow nations and deployed militia to the Colombian border.

Well, it's Colombia which violated Ecuador's sovereignty. Chávez is only defending his ally, and protecting his own country. As for "conflict with fellow nations", well, except Colombia and Peru, Chávez has good ties with other South American nation - Ecuador, Bolivia, Argentina, Brazil, and even Chile. (not sure about Uruguay and Paraguay).

Now, do tell me, is he a great man?

With all the good he did to Venezuela and friendly countries (Bolivia, Ecuador, Argentina, Cuba) and even non-friendly ones (cheap oil given to the poor of USA, to the public transportion of London, the Mision Milagro which cured people in Peru and Colombia, ...), yes, he's a great man - even if has his flaws.

Is his involvement with the FARC a noble enterprise or is that doing something for the economy of Venezuela?

Those ties are far from proven.

The FARC, a terrorist organization that has plunged Colombia into a no man's land and that constantly targets politicians and journalists and kidnaps without regard?

The FARC initially started after the murder of the anti-oligarchy candidate at the presidential election of 1948 in Colombia. They waged since then a civil war against the political system of Colombia, which is completely corrupt, and has numerous ties with the right-wing paramilitary who slaughter leftist activists, unionists, civilians and even journalists. The FARC use very dirty tactics which are not acceptable, but the other sides of this war (the government and the right-wing paramilitary) are not better. The paramilitaries are even much worse than the FARC, if you consider the number of people they slaughter (600 every year since 2002 and their official "demobilization").

(Read "Noticia de un secuestro", by Gabriel García Márquez.

This shows how much your facts about Colombia are messed up (probably by the mass media) ! I did read this (great) book. And it doesn't speak about the FARC ! The ones taking the hostages in this book are the Medelin cartel of Pablo Escobar. Political enemies of the FARC. And speaking of Escobar... do you know that our Uribe was leader of the civil aviation department at the time when the building of a private airport for Escobar was approved ? Either Uribe was knowingly helping Escobar, or he was just plain incompetent, I don't know; but still, the fact remains.

Check on what happened to Ingrid Betancourt, a French-Colombian candidate to the Presidency of Colombia in the late 90s.)

I'm perfectly aware of her fate. In fact, I've some links with the Ingrid Betancourt support associations here in France. And they all backed Chávez as the best man to bring peace in Colombia. And Ingrid's husband reacted very, very violently to this act of Uribe, because Uribe murdered the one who was... negotiating Ingrid's freedom ! http://telesurtv.net/secciones/noticias/nota/25045/fabrice-delloye-actitud-de-uribe-fue-asquerosa-e-innoble-al-sabotear-liberacion-de-rehenes/ (spanish) if you want more informations on his reaction.

" And since we have a Venezuelan in the thread, why don't we let Aelosia tell us how it is in her country instead of speculating, eh? :) And I believe she just did.

You'll find many Venezuelian who will oppose Chávez, and many who will support him. That the one we have here opposes him doesn't say much about if Chávez is "good" or "bad".

Overall, people who have computers and access to Internet are opposing Chávez, because in Venezuela, they are the upper-class, or at least middle-class. The majority of venezuelian, who used to be very poor before Chávez, who still are poor but with huge improvements in their lives, just don't have computers. They can connect from Mision Ciencia points, or from "cybercafe" which are quite cheap over there, but people who use Internet exceptionally like that usually don't know about NationStates ;)

That was a problem before Chávez.

Yes

It went up during the beginning of Chávez presidency

At the beginning, at the middle, and right now. President Hugo Chávez made the first speech of the year 2008, right after the referendum showed a rejection of his constitutional reform, about how the goverment could combat the alarming rise in crime.

but it seems to be going down again. It's not an easy thing to fix in a few years, anyway.

Since when? Since January? It is still on the rise. According to Chávez himself, who appointed a new Minister of Interior and Justice in January to try to cope with the rise of crime. So far, said Minister has been coordinating the release of FARC hostages, and have had no time to get busy with the messy internal affairs. Check what Rodríguez Chacín has been doing all these months.

You usually seem more informed than most, Kilobugya, but you haven't updated lately.

Inflation is lower on the Chávez years than it was during the 10 previous years. The problem still exists, but it's lower under Chávez than before.

Eh, no. The goverment has failed two years in a row in their own inflation perspectives. When you see it in a macroeconomical view, it is natural, they try to reduce inflation while at the same time they increase public expenses and encourage mass comsumption. It is AS BAD as before. And just in January, thanks to the great idea of changing the currency, the inflation surpassed their predictions and goals by 100%.

That's quite a recent attempt to undermine Chávez, very similar to the economical sabottage of 2002-2003. And it's also being fixed, through Mercal, agreements with Argentina, and the agrarian reform starting to give some tesult.

The opposition is powerless, yet every fault and flaw in the Chávez goverment is their fault?

You could agree on a position for once. Lack of food and supplies is a direct consequence of wrong economical policies, corruption, and macroeconomical abstractions, like a set of price controls way far from reality.

Well, rather than uncertain and biased source, you should rather look at organisations like UNESCO, which acknowledged that Venezuela is now "free of illiteracy".

Yup, we spent thousands of millions to give literacy to 1% of the population.

I saw the act of graduation of "Misión Ribas" the other day. 10,000 new citizens graduated and got a special grade of High School. Great.

10,000. Nice. I thought "wow, not so bad".

Then I checked the spenditure of said program.

10,000,000 dollars.

Wow. Each of said graduates costed the state one million dollars? Do you know how much MY university education costed?

Is that corruption or what? Is that program really effective? Or is it related to propaganda. Gimme 10 million bucks and I'll give you at least 50 thousand graduates.

Then I checked more facts. Half of those really haven't finished their courses, but were "in the final stages". Sooo, they give them an act of graduation before they graduate for what exactly? Or are they pumping the numbers?

I need say no more. Aelosia's spoken.:)
Although I do take back the reference of the García Márquez book. It was errouneous.;) But the case of Ingrid Betancourt (and her family was recieved by Sarkozy back in 2002 when it became 6 years of her disappereance) enraged me. I don't like Chávez, he reminds me too much of Franco. As I said before, he's a lose cannon and if he isn't reigned in by the UN, I see war on the horizon. Hopefully things can be stopped before they escalate to greater proportions.

Yup, we spent thousands of millions to give literacy to 1% of the population.

I saw the act of graduation of "Misión Ribas" the other day. 10,000 new citizens graduated and got a special grade of High School. Great.

10,000. Nice. I thought "wow, not so bad".

Then I checked the spenditure of said program.

10,000,000 dollars.

Wow. Each of said graduates costed the state one million dollars?You might have posted the wrong numbers. I count $ 1,000 per graduate.

You might have posted the wrong numbers. I count $ 1,000 per graduate.

I did.

$10,000,000,000

Ten "millardos". Ten thousand millions of dollars.

The armoured force, as I am writing this, is not yet deployed. It is leaving the military bases now. More likely it will arrive to the border by night, at venezuelan time. (East Coast, if you need a reference).Of course, it takes time to mobilize and deploy. Remember, it took Russia 8 weeks to mobilize in 1914 (that is why the Schlieffen plan forced an invasion of France).

Coming from a nut like Uribe, who arms right-wing death-squads against his own people, I don't think this is stunning.

But that was back in 1914 (we're in 2008;)), that took 8 weeks to mobilize a garrison, of course, we're also taking into sconsideration that Russian soil is frozen almost all year round. But that could also apply to Venezuelan and Colombian land, we're talking about jungle and mountainous like terrain. It could take them a while to get there. But Aelosia gave an estimate on when they would be arriving to the Colombian border so, apparently, it isn't that hard to get there.

I wasn't saying it will take 8 weeks. I was just pointing out that mobilization is not instantaneous. It took four months for the US to mobilize in the Gulf in late 1990. Granted that was half the world away, but it still takes time.

Coming from a nut like Uribe, who arms right-wing death-squads against his own people, I don't think this is stunning.

Do you ever back up any of the shit that comes out of your fingers? Source something please. Don't just repeat dogma.

Of course, it takes time to mobilize and deploy. Remember, it took Russia 8 weeks to mobilize in 1914 (that is why the Schlieffen plan forced an invasion of France).

But that was back in 1914 (we're in 2008;)), that took 8 weeks to mobilize a garrison, of course, we're also taking into sconsideration that Russian soil is frozen almost all year round. But that could also apply to Venezuelan and Colombian land, we're talking about jungle and mountainous like terrain. It could take them a while to get there. But Aelosia gave an estimate on when they would be arriving to the Colombian border so, apparently, it isn't that hard to get there.

But that was back in 1914 (we're in 2008;)), that took 8 weeks to mobilize a garrison, of course, we're also taking into sconsideration that Russian soil is frozen almost all year round. But that could also apply to Venezuelan and Colombian land, we're talking about jungle and mountainous like terrain. It could take them a while to get there. But Aelosia gave an estimate on when they would be arriving to the Colombian border so, apparently, it isn't that hard to get there.

Yeah, from Valencia, (wink, Valencia Venezuela) and Maracay, the cities where the main armoured venezuelan regiments are based, (Center-North of the country), to the frontier at Zulia and Táchira, it is a 6-7 hours ride. For a large column of tanks, I guess 8-9 hours is a good estimate, although they won't be moving through the same roads, and for sure police is going to allow them the use of specific space through our highways, (because we have them ;)), that link said locations.

I guess that tonight they will be deployed at full.

And yes, 1914, go figure, we have advanced since then.

Do you ever back up any of the shit that comes out of your fingers? Source something please. Don't just repeat dogma.

It's common knowledge, but then again I am not the one making wild claims in the OP.

It's common knowledge, but then again I am not the one making wild claims in the OP.

What is the "wild claim" that I made in the OP, if you care to enlighten me?

It's common knowledge, but then again I am not the one making wild claims in the OP.
LOL, the OP did not make any claims. If you read the post you would know he used words like "if" and said it isn't proven yet. You are the only one making crazy claims here.

Please go and reread the OP.

Since when? Since January? It is still on the rise.

IIRC it was at the beginning of february that I saw statistics from the police of Caracas showing a significant fall in crime. But I don't remember well the details :/ But maybe it's specific to Caracas and not a general trend.

Eh, no. The goverment has failed two years in a row in their own inflation perspectives.

Which doesn't mean it isn't better than before. Inflation is in the 10-15% bracket during Chávez (except in 2002 with the coup attempt and oil sabotage), while it was often above 20% before him.

And just in January, thanks to the great idea of changing the currency, the inflation surpassed their predictions and goals by 100%.

Well, that's a very special situation, not a general one.

The opposition is powerless, yet every fault and flaw in the Chávez goverment is their fault?

The opposition is far from being powerless. They are politically powerless. But they still control most of the economy, they still own most of big businesses, and they still control nearly all private media. The ability of a tiny few numbers of wealthy people to control (and damage if they want) the economy of a country is one of the worse aspects of capitalism - one that takes time to eradicate.

Lack of food and supplies is a direct consequence of wrong economical policies, corruption, and macroeconomical abstractions, like a set of price controls way far from reality.

No, it's more a consequence of owners of the traditional supermarkets and distribution networks wanting to raise the population against Chávez. And as funny twist of fate, here in France we have exactly now a scandal of food price going up (+50% in a few months for some goods) with a government doing exactly the opposite economical policy than Chávez.. and for the same reason, under a different form: for us it's supermarkets and distribution network abusing from the power given to them by "deregulation" and "free market" policies.

Yup, we spent thousands of millions to give literacy to 1% of the population.

Education has no price. But I would like to see where you figures come from (and thousand of millions of what ? thousands of millions of bolivars ? of bolivar fuerte ? of dollar ?)

I saw the act of graduation of "Misión Ribas" the other day. 10,000 new citizens graduated and got a special grade of High School. Great.

Indeed.

Then I checked the spenditure of said program.

10,000,000 dollars.

Wow. Each of said graduates costed the state one million dollars? Do you know how much MY university education costed?

Hum, either you did a mistake in your post, or you should have studied more maths ;) 10,000,000 dollars for 10,000 citizen mean 1,000 $ per people. Which is quite cheap for high school level education. Here, you cannot find any private university below 5000 euros/year, while they still have some help from government. Sure prices and wages are lower in Venezuela, and high school costs less than university, but a price of 1000 $/person is quite cheap.

Gimme 10 million bucks and I'll give you at least 50 thousand graduates.

If you could do that, I think I would really worship you. Education *is* expensive. But it's way worth it, both in term of human consequences, and in term of long term economical consequences - especially in the XXIest century.

LOL, the OP did not make any claims. If you read the post you would know he used words like "if" and said it isn't proven yet. You are the only one making crazy claims here.
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9B04E4D91F3BF936A2575AC0A9659C8B63
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9B04E4D91F3BF936A2575AC0A9659C8B63
http://www.boston.com/news/world/latinamerica/articles/2007/02/25/colombia_political_scandal_imperiling_us_ties/
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2006/12/16/MNGM8N0V001.DTL
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=8959516

Uribe and his government are well-documented in their links to right-wing militias and death squads which kill peasants and dress them as FARC guerrillas to claim confirmed kills to the government. FACT, Reyes was so exposed because he was in a truce with the Colombia over the hostage negotiations, with Venezuela playing the mediator. FACT, Uribe intentionally broke this negotiation and truce with Reyes and used the opportunity to kill him, pretty much assuring the fate of the hundreds of FARC hostages. FACT, it is Uribe, not Chavez or anyone else, that has started this fiasco. It was prosecuted with US-paid aerial weaponry and almost definitely ordered by Washington because they didn't like the idea of the continuing negotiations and peace effort with FARC, the conservatives in the US AND Colombia want the war to escalate, and have begun to violate their neighbors sovereignty. Mind you that right-wingers in both Colombia AND the US have been saying these wild claims about Chavez and Correles for months and years, none of it was ever proven.

How about you take your ill-informed non-opinions elsewhere.

I need say no more. Aelosia's spoken.:)

Well, she is the voice of Venezuelan opposition (not the worst of it, I agree, even if she did say some very shocking things like negating the existence of the coup in 2002, once). But this is a minority of Venezuelian.

Although I do take back the reference of the García Márquez book. It was errouneous.;)

Erroneous but very interesting. You're not the first one I meet who tend to think that the FARC is the primary (if not the only) source of violence in Colombia, while they are not, by far. Drug cartels and paramilitaries are. But corporate massmedia prefer to focus on the FARC. And to go blind about the ties between Colombia's government and army with those paramilitaries.

But the case of Ingrid Betancourt (and her family was recieved by Sarkozy back in 2002 when it became 6 years of her disappereance) enraged me.

It does enrage me too. But then, you should listen to those who fight for her, to her husband and children. And they all backed Chávez, and they all got enraged on this recent move of Uribe. Because in this story, Chávez is the one trying to find a political solution and Uribe the one choosing blindly the path of violence.

I don't like Chávez, he reminds me too much of Franco.

Of Franco ?! They are as opposite as politician can be.

Hopefully things can be stopped before they escalate to greater proportions.

Of that I really hope, too.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9B04E4D91F3BF936A2575AC0A9659C8B63
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9B04E4D91F3BF936A2575AC0A9659C8B63
http://www.boston.com/news/world/latinamerica/articles/2007/02/25/colombia_political_scandal_imperiling_us_ties/
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2006/12/16/MNGM8N0V001.DTL
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=8959516


Your first two sources just say he will grant immunity if they lay down their arms. This is no different from the UK granting IRA members immunity for laying down their arms. That is how you bring about peace with terror organizations. You overlook past misdeeds in order to get peace in the present and future. There is nothing wrong with that action. It is actually an intelligent way to run a state that is having issues with internal rebels. Was the UK wrong to let IRA members off? Of course not, it brought stability. Ditto in this case.

Your other sources do not link Uribe to the death squads. They link supporters of him to them. By that same logic I can link Obama to the criminal political machines of Stroger, Blagojevich and Daley. They all have worked with Obama so Obama must be part of their corrupt machines. A few republicans have tried to use this type of logic to smear Obama. It is very dishonest to do so and is just as low as the crap you are spewing.

It was prosecuted with US-paid aerial weaponry and almost definitely ordered by Washington because they didn't like the idea of the continuing negotiations and peace effort with FARC, the conservatives in the US AND Colombia want the war to escalate, and have begun to violate their neighbors sovereignty. Mind you that right-wingers in both Colombia AND the US have been saying these wild claims about Chavez and Correles for months and years, none of it was ever proven.

How about you take your ill-informed non-opinions elsewhere.

Why don't you go and back this shit up? None of your links even come close to implying anything close to this. Now please back it up.

Your first two sources just say he will grant immunity if they lay down their arms. This is no different from the UK granting IRA members immunity for laying down their arms. That is how you bring about peace with terror organizations.

But then, why is he doing it with the AUC, and not with the FARC ? Uribe refused any kind of negotiation with the FARC. And the crimes of the AUC (and of other paramilitaries) are much worse than those of the FARC. The FARC take hostages, the AUC slaughtered full villages just because they suspected one in them.

That's one of the problems - Uribe tried to make peace with the paramilitaries (which failed, because hundred of people are still slaughtered yearly by the paramilitaries, much more than those killed by the FARC), but always refused any negotiation with the FARC, while the FARC keep claiming they want to negotiate.

Your first two sources just say he will grant immunity if they lay down their arms. This is no different from the UK granting IRA members immunity for laying down their arms. That is how you bring about peace with terror organizations. You overlook past misdeeds in order to get peace in the present and future. There is nothing wrong with that action. It is actually an intelligent way to run a state that is having issues with internal rebels. Was the UK wrong to let IRA members off? Of course not, it brought stability. Ditto in this case.

Because the IRA was fighting against the UK government - you're argument would be valid if the immunity would be offered to FARC.

But then, why is he doing it with the AUC, and not with the FARC ? Uribe refused any kind of negotiation with the FARC. And the crimes of the AUC (and of other paramilitaries) are much worse than those of the FARC. The FARC take hostages, the AUC slaughtered full villages just because they suspected one in them.

That's one of the problems - Uribe tried to make peace with the paramilitaries (which failed, because hundred of people are still slaughtered yearly by the paramilitaries, much more than those killed by the FARC), but always refused any negotiation with the FARC, while the FARC keep claiming they want to negotiate.

The FARC itself has been unwilling to lay down its arms, and remains dedicated to overthrowing the democratically constituted Colombian state. Members who flee the FARC are granted a similar amnesty, but given that fleeing the FARC is quite difficult, and the consequence of being caught is that you are converted into a slave laborer, this doesn't gain overmuch ground.

In before the Chavez supporters denounce it as fake and the anti-Chavez hold it as conclusive evidence.

I'll wait and see what the UN makes of it.

you're seriously waiting for the UN to make a decision? I hope you have about a year and a half to kill.

almost definitely ordered by Washington because they didn't like the idea of the continuing negotiations and peace effort with FARC


Prove it. You cant just make make batshit crazy paranoid claims and have nothing to base it off of aside from your persecution complex that says "teh ebil USians are out to get my "socialist" brothers!!!!1111!!!1!11!"

The FARC itself has been unwilling to lay down its arms,

Most of the FARC accepted. They created the UP. 5000 members of the UP were then slaughtered by paramilitaries helped by the government. So nowadays the FARC are willing to stop fighting - but not without conditions, they don't want this masquerade to start again.

and remains dedicated to overthrowing the democratically constituted Colombian state.

Democratic ? The country in which 1/3 of all unionists murders in the world occur, the country, after Irak, in which the higher number of journalists are killed, by paramilitaries who have ties with high ranking members of both the government and the army, democratic ?

Speaking of democracy, you should remember that it was the murder of a candidate of the 1948 presidential election which started the Colombian civil war. Since this date, anti-oligarchy or left-wing candidates are always harassed, threatened, and often murdered. While this goes on, the FARC will continue the fight. I don't agree at all with their method (cocaine traffic and hostages), but the reason of their existence is real, and needs to be solved if the civil war has to be stopped.

Members who flee the FARC are granted a similar amnesty

No, this amnesty only runs for member of the paramilitaries, not to members of the FARC.

Hugo Chávez actually thinks of himself as the new Simón Bolívar and, in his ambitions to immitate a great a man (and Chávez ain't a great man), he's destroying his country and causing major pain and suffering to all Venezuelans, and Ecuatorians alike, not to mention the strife he might be causing in Colombia. Colombia, a country that has had enough problems with it's own as it is. He ought to be killed, seriously.

Hell no, I hate it when people say things like that. Assassinating Chavez only makes him a martyr, an innocent victim fighting against the oppressive US. Of course, whether we're behind it or not, you can bet that's the message his government will be spreading in Venezuela, and it certainly won't be helping anyone.

As for linking him with FARC, I honestly can't say that I can trust a government on something like this. It is so easy to forge documents these days, and all governments are capable of doing it and covering things up. Colombia's going to need something pretty damn incriminating.

But it's way worth it, both in term of human consequences, and in term of long term economical consequences - especially in the XXIest century.
Mere literacy or these bare-boned social mission education programs don't add the same sort of value a real education would. As Aelosia said, people who got a mission education aren't gonna be able to deal with serious university degrees. They were bottom of the ladder before, now they're still bottom of the ladder but they can read. The only economic gain you can expect from that is that there are gonna be fewer teamsters delivering crates to the wrong address.

Also, roflmao at everything you said about rich people controlling the economy, both in Venezuela and in France.

Yup, we spent thousands of millions to give literacy to 1% of the population.

I saw the act of graduation of "Misión Ribas" the other day. 10,000 new citizens graduated and got a special grade of High School. Great.

10,000. Nice. I thought "wow, not so bad".

Then I checked the spenditure of said program.

10,000,000 dollars.

Wow. Each of said graduates costed the state one million dollars.One million per student???
WoW

You may wanna set the record straight and edit the Wikipedia page.. Give them your truth, Show the world how that asshole Chavez is wasting your Oil money on these uneducated bums!!!

http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misión_Ribas

Do you ever back up any of the shit that comes out of your fingers?I can show you my PDF, do you wanna see it? :D :D ;) :D

Considering that Colombia is a staunch US ally, it is up to them and no one else if they want to request US assistance in defending themselves against Chavez aggression.
South America is, btw, America's backyard. It's in America's interest that peace prevails there and that countries don't go around supporting terrorists or attacking their neighbors.
The situation is already a regional one not because of the US but because of Chavez. And regional problems in the western hemisphere often lead to involvement of the US whether the lefties like it or not. If they didn't want the US involved, they need to get rid of Chavez cause if he sends one soldier into Colombia, all it takes is for Uribe to make a phone call and US infantry can be on the ground whooping Venezuelan/Ecuadoran what it called.

I can show you my PDF, do you wanna see it? :D :D ;) :D

Given who HaMedinat Yisrael was referring to, that can be taken to be an admission to being Andaras AKA AP.

all it takes is for Uribe to make a phone call and US infantry can be on the ground whooping Venezuelan/Ecuadoran what it called.:D Reminds me of the Hillary (I-am-a-warmonger-waiting-for-a-call) TV ad.
.

South America is, btw, America's backyard. I see.
.
If they didn't want the US involved, they need to get rid of Chavez ...Interesting.

Give them your truth, Show the world how that asshole Chavez is wasting your Oil money on these uneducated bums!!!
I've got a wiki link for you too: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

Wanna put your name in there?

Yup, we spent thousands of millions to give literacy to 1% of the population.

I saw the act of graduation of "Misión Ribas" the other day. 10,000 new citizens graduated and got a special grade of High School. Great.

10,000. Nice. I thought "wow, not so bad".

Then I checked the spenditure of said program.

10,000,000 dollars.

Wow. Each of said graduates costed the state one million dollars.One million per student???
WoW

You may wanna set the record straight and edit the Wikipedia page.. Give them your truth, Show the world how that asshole Chavez is wasting your precious Oil money on these uneducated bums!!!

http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misión_Ribas
http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misiones_bolivarianasI've got a wiki link for you too: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

Wanna put your name in there?You are welcomed to try.
Go ahead, make my day, give them your truth. :D

So far, this is the document published by the colombian intelligence about the links of the Presidents of Venezuela, Hugo Chávez, and Ecuador, Rafael Correa, with the guerrilla Fuerzas Armadas Revolucionarias de Colombia, FARC.

I am not stating this document is legitimate. I am just saying this is the document the colombian authorities alleged to have found in possession of Raúl Reyes, the guerrilla chief killed in a military operation in Ecuador's territory during the weekend.

Right now, Colombia is going to denounce Chávez in front of the United Nations for consorting with a terrorist organization and for working towards the destabilization of a neighbouring country. This document is going to be the main proof of the allegation.

This is the link:

http://www.eluniversal.com/2008/03/03/documento1.pdf

Of course, it is in spanish. I'll work on a proper translation and place it here so you can read it properly.

Meanwhile, you are free to comment.

It hardly matters if it is real.

Reyes is dead, and that's his body. The Columbians killed him. There's no denying that He obviously had a safe haven in Ecuador - there's no denying that. So Ecuador and Columbia are at least at cross-purposes.

There are FARC bases in Venezuela. There's no denying that. And Chavez's reaction saying that Reyes' death is a murder (rather than the result of combat, which sometimes is very one-sided), tells me where his sympathies lie. That, and the reaction of sending the Army to the border with Columbia.

A shame, really. The three countries used to be allied in the 1800s.

If they start fighting it out, will Peru take the opportunity to kick Ecuador's ass again?

It hardly matters if (the PDF) is real.Nigerian yellow cake.. did it matter?

He obviously had a safe haven in Ecuador - there's no denying that.

Safe haven ? Well, if you manage to control 700km of jungle border with a 60k soldiers army (which has other things to do) and be sure no one ever cross it, then you're really a genius.

In addition, Ecuador and Venezuela want to avoid the conflict to spread from Colombia. Focusing on arresting FARC member would be the best way to drive the FARC to spread the conflict.

There are FARC bases in Venezuela. There's no denying that.

This time, the border is 2000km wide. So yes, FARC members do enter Venezuela sometimes. But there is no permanent FARC base in Venezuela.

And Chavez's reaction saying that Reyes' death is a murder (rather than the result of combat, which sometimes is very one-sided),

When you kill someone during his sleep, it's not the "result of combat", but a murder. It may be justified in some situations, but it is still a murder.

And when you kill the one who is in charge of negotiations, the "diplomat" of the FARC, who just negotiated the liberation of 6 hostages, it's not a "combat", but really a murder. Reyes was not a "normal" FARC leader, but the one negotiating the release of hostages. Killing negotiators is just wrong, whatever the situation is.

That, and the reaction of sending the Army to the border with Columbia.

Colombia shamelessly violates the sovereignty of Ecuador, and Venezuela should not take precautions to protect itself ? That would be irresponsible.

Reyes is dead, and that's his body. The Columbians killed him. There's no denying that ...I guess its now legitimate for any Country who wants a Bloody ex-dictator/murderer in US territory to bomb him wherever he is.


Whether or not the Ecuadorian Gov had any realistic way to know for-sure where he is hiding.. and to bomb him without collaterating many Ecuadorian civilians, (or Pakistan-AQ)

I guess its now legitimate for any Country who wants a Bloody ex-dictator/murderer in US territory to bomb him wherever he is. Whether the Ecuadorian Gov had any means track him down, (Or the Pakistan Gov having the means to track AQ)

As long as you have the means to do it, it appears that it can be done.

If you don't have the means, you can only whine about it.

As long as you have the means to do it, it appears that it can be done.

If you don't have the means, you can only whine about it.I guess you mean to say only the US and his lap-Dogs (in this case Colombia) can do it... Because if Venezuela or Ecuador hits back.. the US is going to Bomb them..

I guess they (Venezuela, Ecuador, Brazil, Argentina, Leftist Latinos, Somalia, Vietnam, North Korea, Iran, Iraq, Lebanon, Palestine, Islamists, Osamas, etc).. I guess they can only whine about it.. they dont have the Satellites, they dont have the Warplanes or the Tanks.. There is nothing they can do to US.

I guess you mean to say only the US and his lap-Dogs (in this case Colombia) can do it... Because if Venezuela or Ecuador hits back.. the US is going to Bomb them..

I guess they (Venezuela, Ecuador, Brazil, Argentina, Leftist Latinos, Somalia, Vietnam, North Korea, Iran, Iraq, Lebanon, Palestine, Islamists, Osamas, etc).. I guess they can only whine about it.. they dont have the Satellites, they dont have the Warplanes or the Tanks.. There is nothing they can do to US.

Probably not. Then again, the US can't occupy their countries either. See Iraq and Afghanistan for the notable lack of success (well, the original governments aren't in power anymore, but it's not like the US is having it all their way now).

Just the occasional bombing.

One million per student???
WoW

You may wanna set the record straight and edit the Wikipedia page.. Give them your truth, Show the world how that asshole Chavez is wasting your Oil money on these uneducated bums!!!

http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misión_Ribas

Woah, easy there. I don't like Chávez myself (I think he's a warmonger/Bolívar poser) but, there's no need to curse.;) Plus, there's nothing wrong in educating people, I don't think the government is wasting money in educating the masses. It's about time South America's stopped being considered a Third World.

Woah, easy there. I don't like Chávez myself (I think he's a warmonger/Bolívar poser) but, there's no need to curse.;) Plus, there's nothing wrong in educating people, I don't think the government is wasting money in educating the masses. It's about time South America's stopped being considered a Third World.My Brother in Law is a Latino, I told me how you (An pro King of spain dude) are calling them Latinos "Hermano", and he asked me to please tell you "Andate a la mierda cabron".

and you know me.. when someone says "please".. I try. ;)

My Brother in Law is a Latino, I told me how you (An pro King of spain dude) are calling them Latinos "Hermano", and he asked me to please tell you "Andate a la mierda cabron".

and you know me.. when someone says "please".. I try. ;)

My friends in Spain can't tolerate being lumped into the same category as "Latinos".

After all, Spain is not in Latin America.

My friends in Spain can't tolerate being lumped into the same category as "Latinos".They should not be Lumped together.

Go to any SouthAmerican backstreet, and ask them at 2 in the morning what do they really think about King loving Spaniards.. and you will see .. or better yet, tell them "viva el Rey!!!". :D (except Brazil)

My Brother in Law is a Latino, I told me how you (An pro King of spain dude) are calling them Latinos "Hermano", and he asked me to please tell you "Andate a la mierda cabron".

and you know me.. when someone says "please".. I try. ;)

Dile a tu cuñado que él también se puede andar a la mierda.;) And when I wrote 'Hermana Latinoamérica' it wasn't because I consider Latinos brothers (although unlike your brother in law, I don't go to extremes and insult a complete stranger. Must be the time he's spent as an illegal in the US). Far from it, after all, we in Spain gave your pendejo brother in law culture and a language. Oh, and history too.

Así que, de parte de una española que es mil veces mejor que él y que sí, ojalá regrese el cabrón rey, dile que tanto él cómo todos vosotros en Latinoamérica os podéis ir al coño. Y venga, dile que espero que Chávez le parta la madre a Ecuador y, en el proceso, reviente Venezuela por bombardeo estadounidense.

By the by, I'm not a dude. I'm a dudette.

And you know me... when an a-hole blunders... I try to shove my foot into his bum... ;)

A Aelosia y a todos aquellos que provienen de Lationoamérica, os pido mil disculpas por lo que acabo de colgar. No es mi intrención faltarle el respeto a nadie aquí. Pero cómo me lo han faltado a mi, no puedo dejar de reventar.

Dile a tu cuñado que él también se puede andar a la mierda.;) And when I wrote 'Hermana Latinoamérica' it wasn't because I consider Latinos brothers (although unlike your brother in law, I don't go to extremes and insult a complete stranger. Must be the time he's spent as an illegal in the US). Far from it, after all, we in Spain gave your pendejo brother in law culture and a language. Oh, and history too.

Así que, de parte de una española que es mil veces mejor que él y que sí, ojalá regrese el cabrón rey, dile que tanto él cómo todos vosotros en Latinoamérica os podéis ir al coño. Y venga, dile que espero que Chávez le parta la madre a Ecuador y, en el proceso, reviente Venezuela por bombardeo estadounidense.

By the by, I'm not a dude. I'm a dudette.

And you know me... when an a-hole blunders... I try to shove my foot into his bum... ;)

A Aelosia y a todos aquellos que provienen de Lationoamérica, os pido mil disculpas por lo que acabo de colgar. No es mi intrención faltarle el respeto a nadie aquí. Pero cómo me lo han faltado a mi, no puedo dejar de reventar.
:D

Translation of the English paragraph Coming to a theater near you :p

(Así que, de parte de una española que es mil veces mejor que él y que sí, ojalá regrese el cabrón rey, dile que tanto él cómo todos vosotros en Latinoamérica os podéis ir al coño. Y venga, dile que espero que Chávez le parta la madre a Ecuador y, en el proceso, reviente Venezuela por bombardeo estadounidense.)
Tell him -from a Spaniard Lady- who is one thousand better than him, that yes, I wish the cabron King rule comes back.. And bring it on, I wish Chavez attack Ecuador and I wish the US bombing destroys Venezuela.

By the by, I'm not a dude. I'm a dudette.

And you know me... when an a-hole blunders... I try to shove my foot into his bum... ;)

(Originally white text..A Aelosia y a todos aquellos que provienen de Lationoamérica, os pido mil disculpas por lo que acabo de colgar. No es mi intrención faltarle el respeto a nadie aquí. Pero cómo me lo han faltado a mi, no puedo dejar de reventar.)
Sorry, I did not mean to say all that, to Aelosia and all Latinos, I am sorry for what I just said. Its not my intention to disrespect anyone. But OcceanDrive drives me crazy
Translated... you are welcome my royal lady of spain :D

Translated... your welcome my royal lady of spain :D

*curtsies*
Thanks, but I do not belong to royalty, and this argument's useless. I'm stooping to your brother in law's same level and I'm insulting a fellow country, something I'm not proud of at the moment.

Oh, on a side note, the translation you just manage was awful.;)

Así que, de parte de una española que es mil veces mejor que él y que sí, ojalá regrese el cabrón rey, dile que tanto él cómo todos vosotros en Latinoamérica os podéis ir al coño. Y venga, dile que espero que Chávez le parta la madre a Ecuador y, en el proceso, reviente Venezuela por bombardeo estadounidense.

Accurate translation:
So, on behalf of a Spaniard that is a thousand times better than him and that yes, I hope the fucking king comes back, tell him and to everyone that comes from Latin America that they can go fuck themselves. Oh, and also tell him that I hope Chávez fucks Ecuador and, that in the process, makes Venezuela explode on account of the US.

Translated... you are welcome my royal lady of spain :D

Ok, you win. *bows*
I have to laugh because your inaccuracy's just hilarious.:D

*curtsies*
Thanks, but I do not belong to royalty, and this argument's useless. I'm stooping to your brother in law's same level and I'm insulting a fellow country, something I'm not proud of at the moment.

Oh, on a side note, the translation you just manage was awful.;)

Así que, de parte de una española que es mil veces mejor que él y que sí, ojalá regrese el cabrón rey, dile que tanto él cómo todos vosotros en Latinoamérica os podéis ir al coño. Y venga, dile que espero que Chávez le parta la madre a Ecuador y, en el proceso, reviente Venezuela por bombardeo estadounidense.

Accurate translation:
So, on behalf of a Spaniard that is a thousand times better than him and that yes, I hope the fucking king comes back, tell him and to everyone that comes from Latin America that they can go fuck themselves. Oh, and also tell him that I hope Chávez fucks Ecuador and, that in the process, makes Venezuela explode on account of the US.oh well, Today I learned the meaning of "Cabron" :D

oh well, Today I learned the meaning of "Cabron" :D

Handy word, ain't it?

Ok, you win. *bows*
I have to laugh because your inaccuracy's just hilarious.:DI am going to Europe in June.. may spare a couple days in Spain, Do you have a couch where I can sleep for one a couple of days?

I am clean and good looking
we could.. you know.. kiss and make-up ;)

I am going to Spain in June.. have a couch where I can sleep for one a couple of days?

I am clean and good looking
we could.. you know.. kiss and make-up ;)

If you come to Oviedo, Asturias, sure, why not. As long as you're not a pervy dude and don't mind cats.:cool:

Handy word, ain't it?si. mucho :D

If you come to Oviedo, Asturias, sure, why not. As long as you're not a pervy dude and don't mind cats.:cool: not pervy.. And any small pervy I might have always gets drained in my Amsterdam stopover. :)

furri animals are lovable. :fluffle:

not pervy.. And any small pervy I might have always gets drained in my Amsterdam stopover. :)

furri animals are lovable. :fluffle:

Entendido.:cool:

Entendido.:cool:cool, acabo de enviarte una invitacion.. de my email mexxx@y7mail
BTW how do you send a TG?

I keep receiving TGs ... and I have never learned how to send them.
me bad.

cool, enviado invitacion from my email mexxx@y7mail.com
BTW how do you send a TG?

I keep receiving TGs ... and I have never learned how to send them.
me bad.

As soon as I get out of this Hellish Parliament and go home, I'll check my email. Sending TGs, no tengo puta idea.:D What's a TG, if you don't mind my question and ignorance?

One million per student???
WoW

You may wanna set the record straight and edit the Wikipedia page.. Give them your truth, Show the world how that asshole Chavez is wasting your Oil money on these uneducated bums!!!

http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misión_Ribas

Irony and sarcasm apart, the normal schooling system manages to graduate more students, that overall are better (if a bit) prepared than the ones of Misión Ribas, using less resources by student. And not for just a tiny bit, for a lot of less resources, as a comparison.

I'm not into wikipedia, it is a lost battle. And I can't see how the article you quoted contradicts what I said.

Before I turn into the target of a fierce communist rhetoric, I am not against the idea, I think it is great. I am just criticizing that the idea can be implemented better, purging corrupted officials out of the system and managing the resources in a better way, plus fixing the details of the project that people are criticizing.

In other words, sorry, but yes, you placed a straw man at me.

IIRC it was at the beginning of february that I saw statistics from the police of Caracas showing a significant fall in crime. But I don't remember well the details :/ But maybe it's specific to Caracas and not a general trend.

Well, it is rather contradictory that I saw the Ministry's numbers during this year and they show a rise on crime in Caracas, in both the municipalities controlled by opposition mayors and pro-Chávez ones. Perhaps the numbers you saw are about last year, I don't know.

Which doesn't mean it isn't better than before. Inflation is in the 10-15% bracket during Chávez (except in 2002 with the coup attempt and oil sabotage), while it was often above 20% before him.

It was above 20% during one year, 1996. For the rest it was around the same bracket, 10-15%, more to the 10 than to the 15. It is true that the oil strike affected the macroeconomy, but it could be fixed already. Five years have passed since then.

The opposition is far from being powerless. They are politically powerless. But they still control most of the economy, they still own most of big businesses, and they still control nearly all private media. The ability of a tiny few numbers of wealthy people to control (and damage if they want) the economy of a country is one of the worse aspects of capitalism - one that takes time to eradicate.

I prefer to leave ideological ideas out of the practical debate. Are they powerful enough as to represent an important part of the population and be taken in account, or are they powerless enough as to be ignored by the central goverment. Most Chávez supporters use the "phantom power of the opposition" to justify the faults of the administration.

No, it's more a consequence of owners of the traditional supermarkets and distribution networks wanting to raise the population against Chávez. And as funny twist of fate, here in France we have exactly now a scandal of food price going up (+50% in a few months for some goods) with a government doing exactly the opposite economical policy than Chávez.. and for the same reason, under a different form: for us it's supermarkets and distribution network abusing from the power given to them by "deregulation" and "free market" policies.

You already have Mercal, PDVAL and other state-controlled networks, who are suffering of scarcity as well. And I don't think supermarket owners want to fuck up economy so bad after all, it hits them in their own funds, too. Plus, where are the proofs that the supermarket owners are trying to depose the president? That is just a supposition created to justify the lack of proper policies by the goverment.

Hum, either you did a mistake in your post, or you should have studied more maths ;) 10,000,000 dollars for 10,000 citizen mean 1,000 $ per people. Which is quite cheap for high school level education. Here, you cannot find any private university below 5000 euros/year, while they still have some help from government. Sure prices and wages are lower in Venezuela, and high school costs less than university, but a price of 1000 $/person is quite cheap.

I made a mistake, I corrected it. It is one million dollars per graduate.

If you could do that, I think I would really worship you. Education *is* expensive. But it's way worth it, both in term of human consequences, and in term of long term economical consequences - especially in the XXIest century.

The standard schooling system in Venezuela already does that, without the abundant resources the Mission programs have. Start worshipping them.

Well, she is the voice of Venezuelan opposition (not the worst of it, I agree, even if she did say some very shocking things like negating the existence of the coup in 2002, once). But this is a minority of Venezuelian.

I still do. The Supreme Court of Venezuela already ruled that the situation was created by a void of power, quickly followed by an illegal attempt to seize power trying to gain advantage from a confusing situation. Chávez and Gollinger can keep calling it a coup all they want. Officially, it was a void of power and I follow that reasoning. Curiously, the main work about those events, the famous documentary "The Revolution won't be televised", entirely blackout the declaration of the military chief saying that Chávez resigned. One of the main events of those days, entirely omitted. Don't you find that weird?

Neither you, or me, know if right now I am a minority or a majority. That would be just making assumptions around.

Erroneous but very interesting. You're not the first one I meet who tend to think that the FARC is the primary (if not the only) source of violence in Colombia, while they are not, by far. Drug cartels and paramilitaries are. But corporate massmedia prefer to focus on the FARC. And to go blind about the ties between Colombia's government and army with those paramilitaries.

Paramilitary units, mainly the Autodefensas Unidas of Colombia, appeared as a consequence and as an antagonist to the FARC. The FARC caused and generated the AUC.

As soon as I get out of this Hellish Parliament and go home, I'll check my email. Sending TGs, no tengo puta idea.:D What's a TG, if you don't mind my question and ignorance?jajaja..

TG es un TeleGrama de forum. No te preacupes de eso.. espero esta noche unas palabras tuyas.

And I can't see how the article you quoted contradicts what I said.I apreciate that.

Before I turn into the target of a fierce communist rhetoric, I am not against the idea, I think it is great. I am just criticizing that the idea can be implemented better, purging corrupted officials out of the system and managing the resources in a better way, plus fixing the details of the project that people are criticizing.Is there Corruption in SoutAmerica, including Colombia and Venzuela? Of course there is.

and I am sure every veteran Communist of NSG realizes that it is not a good idea to be too "fierce" against you.. You are the virtual resident ambassador of Venezuela at NSG (not the ambassador of Chavez, but the ambassador of Venezuelan people, and the only known ambassador of the LatinAmerican media..)
And its not only communists (who would rather not target you).

If anyone would ever be willing to take his gloves-off to target you.. it would most likely be me.

and even I.. would rather eat broccoli.

OD? Probably not the best posting your email on an internet forum!;)You are probably right..
what I figured is "its on my profile too.. anyone here can get it anyways"

besides "danger" makes me horny, so that side effect is good news :D

cool, acabo de enviarte una invitacion.. de my email ..............
BTW how do you send a TG?

I keep receiving TGs ... and I have never learned how to send them.
me bad.

OD? Probably not the best posting your email on an internet forum!;)

jajaja..

TG es un TeleGrama de forum. No te preacupes de eso.. espero esta noche unas palabras tuyas.

Venga, así la haré tío. Va, y te las mereces por lo mucho que me has jodido durante el día de hoy, eh.;)

Venga, así la haré tío. Va, y te las mereces por lo mucho que me has jodido durante el día de hoy, eh.;)Me voy a hacer perdonar.. suave.. en persona. Ya vas a ver que vas a salir ganando. :fluffle:

Jejejejejeje! Vamos tío, te voy a tomar la palabra.:D Ome, más vale que sepas pedirme perdón o te va un ostiazo.;)http://www.flora2000.com/common/images/ProdImg300/5131.jpgspecial delivery

Me voy a hacer perdonar.. en persona. Ya vas a ver que vas a salir ganando. :fluffle:

Jejejejejeje! Vamos tío, te voy a tomar la palabra.:D Ome, más vale que sepas pedirme perdón o te va un ostiazo.;)

http://www.flora2000.com/common/images/ProdImg300/5131.jpgspecial delivery

Awww, qué lindo. Graxies.:)

Is there Corruption in SoutAmerica, including Colombia and Venzuela? Of course there is.

and I am sure every veteran Communist of NSG realizes that it is not a good idea to be too "fierce" against you.. You are the virtual resident ambassador of Venezuela at NSG (not the ambassador of Chavez, but the ambassador of Venezuelan people, and the only known ambassador of the LatinAmerican media..)
And its not only communists (who would rather not target you).

If anyone would ever be willing to take his gloves-off to target you.. it would most likely be me.

and even I.. would rather eat broccoli.

Me?, I'm not so much of a cougar than others.

Bottle is a hard bitch, and I am pretty sure she realizes this is a compliment.

Neesika is hard too, and her "combat posture" is usually impervious.

Tsuki here showed a remarkable ability to bite if poked in the wrong place.

Katganistan is stubborn, heavily sarcastic, and she has a Modhammer hanging from her back as a bonus.

I am rather...Inoffensive.

I prefer to debate with people from the left wing than with people of the right wing here, mainly because they use better arguments and are, as a general rule, better informed about the situation at hand. EXCEPTION: Andaras.

For general information, my officcial political leaning is "moderate".

I liked when someone else of Venezuela was here to debate too, even if his political views were radically opposed to mine. The discussions were richer. I do not like the ambassador duty, even if I have indeed a grade in Foreign Affairs to show off.

Y Tsuki, querida, tratar a Oceandrive es como tratar a un perrito raro. Puede morderte tanto como dejarse acariciar, y si lo tocas detrás de las orejas, puede ser bastante dulce. Tiene sus momentos fastidiosos, y sus momentos grandes. Ya te acostumbrarás ;)

Y Tsuki, querida, tratar a Oceandrive es como tratar a un perrito raro. Puede morderte tanto como dejarse acariciar, y si lo tocas detrás de las orejas, puede ser bastante dulce. Tiene sus momentos fastidiosos, y sus momentos grandes. Ya te acostumbrarás ;)Oh noesss !!!


Asi no se vale.. ya le avisaste donde esta my point G..
ahora estoy en desventaja. :D

Me?, I'm not so much of a cougar than others.

Bottle is a hard bitch, and I am pretty sure she realizes this is a compliment.

Neesika is hard too, and her "combat posture" is usually impervious.

Tsuki here showed a remarkable ability to bite if poked in the wrong place.

Katganistan is stubborn, heavily sarcastic, and she has a Modhammer hanging from her back as a bonus.

I am rather...Inoffensive.

I prefer to debate with people from the left wing than with people of the right wing here, mainly because they use better arguments and are, as a general rule, better informed about the situation at hand. EXCEPTION: Andaras.

For general information, my officcial political leaning is "moderate".

I liked when someone else of Venezuela was here to debate too, even if his political views were radically opposed to mine. The discussions were richer. I do not like the ambassador duty, even if I have indeed a grade in Foreign Affairs to show off.

Y Tsuki, querida, tratar a Oceandrive es como tratar a un perrito raro. Puede morderte tanto como dejarse acariciar, y si lo tocas detrás de las orejas, puede ser bastante dulce. Tiene sus momentos fastidiosos, y sus momentos grandes. Ya te acostumbrarás ;)

Yes, I can be a Spanish bitch and I bite.:D

Por OceanDrive, ya me di cuenta, fía. Mejor no se le hace mucho caso o se le sigue la corriente. Venga, ¿así que una caricia detrás de las orejillas lo amansa? Lo tendré presente. Y gracias por entender mi coraje y que no está dirigido a los latinoamericanos.:) Agur!

We've been over this, like four times now, Occean. It's not that the man has committed crimes in a country, that's a law enforcement issue, it's that the man is actively involved in currently committing crimes, in the form of a bloody insurgency in Colombia. He is an active threat to the people of Colombia, and killing him allows for a greater degree of safety for the Colombian people, thus, it is a combined law enforcement-military problem. The nature of continued action demands a rapid response, when actionable intelligence is available.

Ex-dictators are precisely that: Ex-. They are no longer an active threat to their country of origin. Thus, the appropriate solution to these types of people is radically different.

More than that, tell me, who are these ex-Dictators harboring in the United States, eh?I am no longer on a debate mood.. :p

call me again friday. ;)

I guess its now legitimate for any Country who wants a Bloody ex-dictator/murderer in US territory to bomb him wherever he is.

We've been over this, like four times now, Occean. It's not that the man has committed crimes in a country, that's a law enforcement issue, it's that the man is actively involved in currently committing crimes, in the form of a bloody insurgency in Colombia. He is an active threat to the people of Colombia, and killing him allows for a greater degree of safety for the Colombian people, thus, it is a combined law enforcement-military problem. The nature of continued action demands a rapid response, when actionable intelligence is available.

Ex-dictators are precisely that: Ex-. They are no longer an active threat to their country of origin. Thus, the appropriate solution to these types of people is radically different.

More than that, tell me, who are these ex-Dictators harboring in the United States, eh?

I am no longer on a debate mood.. :p

call me again friday. ;)

And I'm in a drinking mood right now, but do you think I'm doing that right now?

So yes, FARC members do enter Venezuela sometimes. But there is no permanent FARC base in Venezuela.
You went and checked, did you?

And when you kill the one who is in charge of negotiations, the "diplomat" of the FARC, who just negotiated the liberation of 6 hostages, it's not a "combat", but really a murder. Reyes was not a "normal" FARC leader, but the one negotiating the release of hostages. Killing negotiators is just wrong, whatever the situation is.
Reyes also happened to be the guy who argued for capturing them in the first place. He was the most violent hardliner in the FARC leadership - even if we assumed that military success against them doesn't work, taking him out allows the more moderate forces within the group to move on. Funnily enough, looking at the messages from FARC itself, it doesn't seem to be nearly as outraged as Chávez has chosen to be. The negotiations will continue, and maybe there are a few sighs of relief on their side to be rid of a particularly recalcitrant criminal.

Colombia shamelessly violates the sovereignty of Ecuador, and Venezuela should not take precautions to protect itself ? That would be irresponsible.
As you know quite well, Correa had actually given the Colombian military the okay for this operation. They just didn't know who the target was, that's all. Not a violation of sovereignty if you agree to it.

Dile a tu cuñado que él también se puede andar a la mierda.;) And when I wrote 'Hermana Latinoamérica' it wasn't because I consider Latinos brothers (although unlike your brother in law, I don't go to extremes and insult a complete stranger. Must be the time he's spent as an illegal in the US). Far from it, after all, we in Spain gave your pendejo brother in law culture and a language. Oh, and history too.

Así que, de parte de una española que es mil veces mejor que él y que sí, ojalá regrese el cabrón rey, dile que tanto él cómo todos vosotros en Latinoamérica os podéis ir al coño. Y venga, dile que espero que Chávez le parta la madre a Ecuador y, en el proceso, reviente Venezuela por bombardeo estadounidense.

By the by, I'm not a dude. I'm a dudette.

And you know me... when an a-hole blunders... I try to shove my foot into his bum... ;)

A Aelosia y a todos aquellos que provienen de Lationoamérica, os pido mil disculpas por lo que acabo de colgar. No es mi intrención faltarle el respeto a nadie aquí. Pero cómo me lo han faltado a mi, no puedo dejar de reventar.

isn't profanity illegal on NS?

isn't profanity illegal on NS?--what Aelosia and PsychoticMongooses said--

*curtsies*
Thanks, but I do not belong to royalty, and this argument's useless. I'm stooping to your brother in law's same level and I'm insulting a fellow country, something I'm not proud of at the moment.

Oh, on a side note, the translation you just manage was awful.;)

Así que, de parte de una española que es mil veces mejor que él y que sí, ojalá regrese el cabrón rey, dile que tanto él cómo todos vosotros en Latinoamérica os podéis ir al coño. Y venga, dile que espero que Chávez le parta la madre a Ecuador y, en el proceso, reviente Venezuela por bombardeo estadounidense.

Accurate translation:
So, on behalf of a Spaniard that is a thousand times better than him and that yes, I hope the fucking king comes back, tell him and to everyone that comes from Latin America that they can go fuck themselves. Oh, and also tell him that I hope Chávez fucks Ecuador and, that in the process, makes Venezuela explode on account of the US.

LOL. The US doesn't need bombs for that. Considering we buy up to 80% of Venezuela's oil, what would happen if we boycotted that oil. Venezuela needs America as a commercial customer.
We tolerated Chavez as long as he doesn't get too far out of hand. If we just went in bombed him and then arrested him, it would give credence to his conspiracy theory. It's far better to let him repress his own people, then, when he attacks a neighbor, offer that neighbor full support and cut off all economic ties to Venezuela. Bush is wrong when he has the military do what a commercial boycott can do much more efficiently and peacefully.

I think Venezuelans are just like everyone else. As soon their pocketbooks start becoming shallower again they'll be calling on Chavez to leave office.
Economics is, in many cases, a much better weapon than bombs. :)
It's just that Bush has yet to learn that lesson. :(

isn't profanity illegal on NS?

Discouraged, but not illegal. Check any thread and you will find plenty.

It was not profanity. It was cougar talk.
sure

LOL. The US doesn't need bombs for that. Considering we buy up to 80% of Venezuela's oil, what would happen if we boycotted that oil. Venezuela needs America as a commercial customer.
We tolerated Chavez as long as he doesn't get too far out of hand. If we just went in bombed him and then arrested him, it would give credence to his conspiracy theory. It's far better to let him repress his own people, then, when he attacks a neighbor, offer that neighbor full support and cut off all economic ties to Venezuela. Bush is wrong when he has the military do what a commercial boycott can do much more efficiently and peacefully.

I think Venezuelans are just like everyone else. As soon their pocketbooks start becoming shallower again they'll be calling on Chavez to leave office.
Economics is, in many cases, a much better weapon than bombs. :)
It's just that Bush has yet to learn that lesson. :(

No, you used to buy that amount. Right now, you buy less than 60%

You tolerated Chávez as much as the rest of the world has tolerated Bush.

Yeah, venezuelans indeed are just like everyone else. Your US pocketbooks seems to start becoming shallower again, it seems, given the economic fall. I think you aren't really being massively discouraged to vote republican, although.

No, you used to buy that amount. Right now, you buy less than 60%

You tolerated Chávez as much as the rest of the world has tolerated Bush.

Yeah, venezuelans indeed are just like everyone else. Your US pocketbooks seems to start becoming shallower again, it seems, given the economic fall. I think you aren't really being massively discouraged to vote republican, although.

Clinton is Republican?

isn't profanity illegal on NS?

No. Not in the slightest.

THe OAS has issued judgement:

They declared that Colombia has violated Ecuador soverignty but they are also refusing to condemn Colombia because the violation may have been justified. An international team is being sent by the OAS to the area in dispute to investigate the matter further:

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2008-03/06/content_7725665.htm

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aFqYog33VnAA&refer=home

It seems that both socialist and capitalist sources are reporting the same thing.

Clinton is Republican?

She might as well be, considering she is a warmonger and in the pocket of big business.

She might as well be, considering she is a warmonger and in the pocket of big business.

since when is it warmongering to defend yourself against terrorism?

President Bush: FARC not seeking nukes

http://www.abcnews.go.com/Blotter/story?id=4395397&page=1

since when is it warmongering to defend yourself against terrorism?

Well, she gave Bush unlimted power to condut war against Iraq and has not yet said it was a bad decision, despite being asked if it was by numerous people. She just says it was a good decision but Bush misused it. And since Iraq had no connection to terrorism until we overthrew Saddam and they started showing up to kill us...


So, attacking a country unprovocted is warmongering.

To add further content to the OP, here are several links regarding the new information published by colombian authorities.

Again, I need to say this. I am not supporting the veracity of the information or data included in the links. As I said before, this is being published by the goverment of Colombia and may include fake content, biased statements, and other irregularities.

Another letter, sent to Chávez from the High Secretariate of the FARC guerrilla:

http://www.eltiempo.com/conflicto/noticias/ARCHIVO/ARCHIVO-3985321-0.pdf

Video with images of the attack, that may include new information and evidence:

http://www.eltiempo.com/multimedia/video/judicial/VIDEO-WEB-PLANTILLA_VIDEOS-3986717.html

Well, she gave Bush unlimted power to condut war against Iraq and has not yet said it was a bad decision, despite being asked if it was by numerous people. She just says it was a good decision but Bush misused it. And since Iraq had no connection to terrorism until we overthrew Saddam and they started showing up to kill us...


So, attacking a country unprovocted is warmongering.

Eh. You do know the reason we attacked Iraq was because Saddam was saying he was close to having nukes and would have them to use against the US in a matter of weeks.

Terrorism, while it should have been the issue, was brushed aside at the time. But that is beside the point. This historical event happened in the Ice Age. We need to talk about the here and now.
Clearly Bush has learned something otherwise he would have invaded North Korea and Iran by now.

Saddam was already provoking the US. He was repeatedly firing on US and allied aircraft who were enforcing the no fly zone. He sent troops into Northern Iraq, in direct violations of UN Resolutions ordering him to stay out of the area.
He aided and abetted Slobodan Milosevic of Serbia.
Then, worse crime of all, he illegally kicked UN monitors and IAEA inspectors out of his country and began a deliberate cover up of his nation's nuclear program leading everyone to suspect that he had restarted it and was now close to the bomb.

That is what triggered the war. If your foe is blind, and you keep saying you are going to nuke his troops, you need to expect that you are going to be having your a** handed to you.

Well, she gave Bush unlimted power to condut war against Iraq and has not yet said it was a bad decision, despite being asked if it was by numerous people. She just says it was a good decision but Bush misused it. And since Iraq had no connection to terrorism until we overthrew Saddam and they started showing up to kill us...


So, attacking a country unprovocted is warmongering.

Eh. You do know the reason we attacked Iraq was because Saddam was saying he was close to having nukes and would have them to use against the US in a matter of weeks.

Terrorism, while it should have been the issue, was brushed aside at the time. But that is beside the point. This historical event happened in the Ice Age. We need to talk about the here and now.
Clearly Bush has learned something otherwise he would have invaded North Korea and Iran by now.

Saddam was already provoking the US. He was repeatedly firing on US and allied aircraft who were enforcing the no fly zone. He sent troops into Northern Iraq, in direct violations of UN Resolutions ordering him to stay out of the area.
He aided and abetted Slobodan Milosevic of Serbia.
Then, worse crime of all, he illegally kicked UN monitors and IAEA inspectors out of his country and began a deliberate cover up of his nation's nuclear program leading everyone to suspect that he had restarted it and was now close to the bomb.

That is what triggered the war. If your foe is blind, and you keep saying you are going to nuke his troops, you need to expect that you are going to be having your a** handed to you.

Eh. You do know the reason we attacked Iraq was because Saddam was saying he was close to having nukes and would have them to use against the US in a matter of weeks.

Terrorism, while it should have been the issue, was brushed aside at the time. But that is beside the point. This historical event happened in the Ice Age. We need to talk about the here and now.
Clearly Bush has learned something otherwise he would have invaded North Korea and Iran by now.

Saddam was already provoking the US. He was repeatedly firing on US and allied aircraft who were enforcing the no fly zone. He sent troops into Northern Iraq, in direct violations of UN Resolutions ordering him to stay out of the area.
He aided and abetted Slobodan Milosevic of Serbia.
Then, worse crime of all, he illegally kicked UN monitors and IAEA inspectors out of his country and began a deliberate cover up of his nation's nuclear program leading everyone to suspect that he had restarted it and was now close to the bomb.

That is what triggered the war. If your foe is blind, and you keep saying you are going to nuke his troops, you need to expect that you are going to be having your a** handed to you.



Without derailing this thread further

1. Saddam never said he had nukes.
2. We do need to focus on the past
3. He actually let inspectors back in before we attacked
4. He never shot down aircraft before the war, and even if he was, we were violating HIS airspace. Meaning we were provoking him. If aircraft with unknown intent violated our airspace without our permission, you better believe we'd shoot them down.

Without derailing this thread further

1. Saddam never said he had nukes.
2. We do need to focus on the past
3. He actually let inspectors back in before we attacked
4. He never shot down aircraft before the war, and even if he was, we were violating HIS airspace. Meaning we were provoking him. If aircraft with unknown intent violated our airspace without our permission, you better believe we'd shoot them down.

Do you have any understanding of what was happening at the time?
He openly sought nukes except when we were pointing guns at him.
Focusing too much on the pass prevents us from moving into the future.
He did so at the very last minute when US forces were already on the way to invade.
He repeatedly fired at coalition (British and American) aircraft. No we were not violating his airspace. We were enforcing a UN resolution along with several other nations. He was ordered by the UN that he was not allowed to fly planes anymore because he used planes to kill civilians in the south.
The US and British and French Airforces were tasked with enforcing the resulting no fly zone which covered all of Northern and all of southern Iraq meaning he was not allowed to fly anything except around Baghdad.

By firing at Coalition planes, he was violating international law and UN Resolutions. He was lucky we didn't use that to take him out earlier which I believe we should have. Remember that there was no peace treaty after Kuwait only a ceasefire. He violated the ceasefire on hundreds of occasions giving us all the excuse we needed to oust him permanently.

If we had not gone in in 2003, it would have continued to this day.

If you need, I'll pull up the UN Resolution establishing the No Fly Zone over Iraq.

UN Resolution 688 supposedly gave the rational for the No Fly Zone.

http://www.fas.org/news/un/iraq/sres/sres0688.htm

" Insists that Iraq allow immediate access by international humanitarian organizations"

Appeals to all Member States and to all humanitarian organizations to contribute to these humanitarian relief efforts;

7. Demands that Iraq cooperate with the Secretary-General to these ends;"

The US/European contribution was the establishment of the No Fly Zone to prevent Saddam from bombing his own people.