NationStates Jolt Archive

Do you think wolves should be re-introduced into Scotland?

Link to BBC NEWS (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/highlands_and_islands/7268765.stm)

However, Mr Morley said there was also potential for attracting tourists.
Yellowstone National Park in the US has generated extra income from its wolves, he said.
"There have been problems, such as what to do when they stray outside the boundaries, but a key issue is the $3m a year it gets from people coming to see the wolves," he said.
Last year, a research team from the UK and Norway published a study that found reintroducing wild wolves to the Scottish Highlands would help the local ecosystem.
Costs in keeping wolves might include keeping farm animals safe, keeping the public safe, preventing people from killing the wolves.
Personally i'm not decided on if it's worthwile, i mean they're only wolves, but then again the extra income would be welcome.

Your thoughts on this?

Good, bad, ugly, don't know ,? ,wtf, i likz wolves, i'm afraid of being eaten etc.

EDIT: Fallacies on wolves according to this site. (http://www.wolftrust.org.uk/faqfallacies.html)
Wolves will attack me when I'm strolling over the hills!
Wolves tend to keep away from people. If one gets too close to you when out for a stroll in the Highlands, throw sticks and stones at him and shout 'shoo!' This is what Italian shepherds do successfully.

I don't know, is there enough space and food in Scotland for them? I don't have anything against it but it would be stupid to reintroduce an animal and later regret it.

I don't know, is there enough space and food in Scotland for them? I don't have anything against it but it would be stupid to reintroduce an animal and later regret it.

perhaps but the food could be deer.
http://www.squidoo.com/wolves-in-Scotland
according to this site,
There is a plan afoot to reintroduce wild wolves to the Scottish Highlands. The thinking behind this is that wolves would help to restrict the huge numbers of red deer that are destroying vegetation and ancient forests and putting bird populations under treat by destroying their habitat.

Since their habitat was effectively taken away, is there enough for them to live on without coming into contact with humans and (more likely) their livestock? Are there enough game animals to support them? Will people be angered that "their deer hunting" will be ruined by wolves? And in what ways will both sides be protected from loss and harm?

Wolves, at least North American timber wolves, are VERY unlikely to attack humans unless either the wolf is sick or they are defending cubs. It's rare to see them because they tend to melt into the landscape and take off when humans are about.

how much wild land is there for them to live in? is there sufficient game for them to live on? are there places where they can live 100 miles from human habitation?

how are they going to keep them from killing livestock and pets?

Since their habitat was effectively taken away, is there enough for them to live on without coming into contact with humans and (more likely) their livestock? Are there enough game animals to support them? Will people be angered that "their deer hunting" will be ruined by wolves? And in what ways will both sides be protected from loss and harm?

Wolves, at least North American timber wolves, are VERY unlikely to attack humans unless either the wolf is sick or they are defending cubs. It's rare to see them because they tend to melt into the landscape and take off when humans are about.

From one of the sites i found it appears people are pretty safe from wolves, but vice versa maybe wolves could be subject to killing for money.
how much wild land is there for them to live in? is there sufficient game for them to live on? are there places where they can live 100 miles from human habitation?

how are they going to keep them from killing livestock and pets?
why 100 miles?
I don't know that's why i'm asking you folks!

why 100 miles?
I don't know that's why i'm asking you folks!

you need a very big buffer zone with wolves if you are going to protect livestock and pets.

they have been working for the past 10 years or so to reintroduce the mexican wolf to new mexico. (of course in new mexico the biggest barrier to success is that ranchers dont want them and will shoot any wolf that they think they can get away with shooting) there are problems with wolves going after newborn calves and with them coming too close to ranch houses and threatening pets (and making ranchers fear for the safety of their children)

this is in a national forest so remote that you can walk in it for days and not see another human being. they try to put the wolves into the most remote of areas but they follow food. its far easier to take down a calf than it is to kill an elk.

you need a very big buffer zone with wolves if you are going to protect livestock and pets.

they have been working for the past 10 years or so to reintroduce the mexican wolf to new mexico. (of course in new mexico the biggest barrier to success is that ranchers dont want them and will shoot any wolf that they think they can get away with shooting) there are problems with wolves going after newborn calves and with them coming too close to ranch houses and threatening pets (and making ranchers fear for the safety of their children)

this is in a national forest so remote that you can walk in it for days and not see another human being. they try to put the wolves into the most remote of areas but they follow food. its far easier to take down a calf than it is to kill an elk.

Well in Scotland there is an element of livestock being eaten, but having said that the highlands are a pretty desolate place, i know a number of Islands that have thousands of Deer for the wolves to feast on (but they might be a little small for them) ie Jura has about 10,000 deer i think.
I suppose if they go on Islands it might work.

no thanks, I'm sick of those stupid wolf images as it is

what we need is something to cull the Scottish population they are everywhere these days :p

Well in Scotland there is an element of livestock being eaten, but having said that the highlands are a pretty desolate place, i know a number of Islands that have thousands of Deer for the wolves to feast on (but they might be a little small for them) ie Jura has about 10,000 deer i think.
I suppose if they go on Islands it might work.

an island would be a good place to start.

no thanks, I'm sick of those stupid wolf images as it is

what we need is something to cull the Scottish population they are everywhere these days :p

Mostly in Spain on holiday.
Culling? why not give them some work in the mines, re-open them and start a new age of machinery and trade, and think of all those people who didn't like the closure of the mines? well now they too can join them.;)

wolves are cool, i'd be happy to see them reinstated. as long as they can be kept off the sheep.

Mostly in Spain on holiday.

don't be silly have you ever been to a pub without a Scotsman?

Culling? why not give them some work in the mines, re-open them and start a new age of machinery and trade, and think of all those people who didn't like the closure of the mines? well now they too can join them.;)

or we could just change all the street signs so rangers and Celtic fans clash...

so...erm yeah wolves who pays to see them when you can be swarmed by the apex predator of Britain (the un-domesticated pidgin) for free?

Yes, they're awesome, and as anyone who's ever watched Due South will know, they can be super loyal crime-stoppers, too.

They smell like dead bunnies. *nod*

you need a very big buffer zone with wolves if you are going to protect livestock and pets.

they have been working for the past 10 years or so to reintroduce the mexican wolf to new mexico. (of course in new mexico the biggest barrier to success is that ranchers dont want them and will shoot any wolf that they think they can get away with shooting) there are problems with wolves going after newborn calves and with them coming too close to ranch houses and threatening pets (and making ranchers fear for the safety of their children)

this is in a national forest so remote that you can walk in it for days and not see another human being. they try to put the wolves into the most remote of areas but they follow food. its far easier to take down a calf than it is to kill an elk.

You have to recall too that wolves need a lot of territory -- travelling 30, 40 miles is nothing to them.

don't be silly have you ever been to a pub without a Scotsman?



or we could just change all the street signs so rangers and Celtic fans clash...

so...erm yeah wolves who pays to see them when you can be swarmed by the apex predator of Britain (the un-domesticated pidgin) for free?

yes they go to pubs in Spain, i'm not joking there's Scottish pubs in Spain i didn't believe it myself until i went there (mostly in the Southern Provinces).
That would be funny, Celtic/Rangers Fans brawl, i wonder who the referee would be?
Hmmm i wonder if Pidgeon shooting should become a national sport? but with bows and arrows?

good point, and also, what are they going to hunt? we're not exactly overrun with deer up here and one can't expect wolves to subsist on rabbits and voles while giving the sheep a miss. unless someone can invent anti-wolf paints to spray on the sheep. my uni is covered in anti-climb paint. if the technology exists to discriminate against climbers with paint i'm sure it's possible to stop wolves also.

http://www.freewebs.com/alphawolfsabrina/theterritory.htm

I've read the book that's referenced here, David Mech's The Wolf. It sounds accurate, but check other sources as well.

You have to recall too that wolves need a lot of territory -- travelling 30, 40 miles is nothing to them.

yeah. i wonder how remote the most remote part of mainland scotland is. is there a place where no one lives in a radius of 20 miles?

yeah. i wonder how remote the most remote part of mainland scotland is. is there a place where no one lives in a radius of 20 miles?

I dunno....

yeah. i wonder how remote the most remote part of mainland scotland is. is there a place where no one lives in a radius of 20 miles?
There are several.

There are several.

are they some kind of national park? can you name such a place so i can look it up?

It's probably a bad idea. Humans tend to fuck up stuff like this. It's like how they want to bring megafauna back to the midwest 10,000 years after they died out.

It's probably a bad idea. Humans tend to fuck up stuff like this. It's like how they want to bring megafauna back to the midwest 10,000 years after they died out.Oh come on - that's just a plain awesome idea. The whole of Iowa and other Midwestern states is completely altered from its original environmental state, so it's not like there's anything to mess up. Watching giant mammoths cross the interstate would completely make up for the endless cornfields and smell of cow/pig shit.

Personally I'm all for the wolves return, but then again I just like the animal...

But I am SO biting my lip about how wolves will prove to be competition for the sheep with the Scots.

But I am SO biting my lip about how wolves will prove to be competition for the sheep with the Scots.
If you’re going to use derogatory stereotypes, at least get them right: It’s the Welsh who shag sheep.

:p

don’t be silly have you ever been to a pub without a Scotsman?
We’re legally obliged to be in a pub 25% of every day, on account of the 1912 'Whit Yoo Lookin At Pal?' Act.


And as to the OP: this idea has been bandied about for yonks. This or beavers.

Personally, I think it's a throwback to the 19th century romanticisation of Scotland. There's always somebody who wants to re-introduce wolves, cover the whole of Scotland with trees, enforce mandatory Gaelic lessons, or demand that all men wear kilt.

If you’re going to use derogatory stereotypes, at least get them right: It’s the Welsh who shag sheep.

:p
Really? I heard that the joke was "What's the difference between The Rolling Stones and a Scotsman? The Rolling Stones sing, 'Hey, you! Get off of my cloud!' whereas the Scotsman says, 'Hey MacLeod, get offa my ewe!'"


I'm gonna get hurt now aren't I?

Sounds like a bad idea. Unseen consequences are likely.

I don't trust wolves

*loads gun with silver bullets*

Well, considering the fact that I was raised by wolves, it would be hypocritical of me to oppose future Scottish children the joys of eating rabbit meat that their adoptive mother has already chewed for them.

are they some kind of national park? can you name such a place so i can look it up?
It had been National Park/Trust areas and other controlled conservation zones that I was thinking of - specifically the controlled area in the Cairngorms (http://www.cairngorms.co.uk/). However, it appears that I was a bit hasty with my comment, as there are apparently 16,000 people living within the boundaries of that particular park - so it's thinly populated, but not uninhabited.

There are other areas of the Highlands that are also very thinly populated but I'm no longer sure that it would be possible to find a contiguous area of 1000+ square miles (as required by the 20 mile radius under discussion earlier) without people living there. My bad.

Personally, I think it's a throwback to the 19th century romanticisation of Scotland. There's always somebody who wants to re-introduce wolves, cover the whole of Scotland with trees, enforce mandatory Gaelic lessons, or demand that all men wear kilt.
Sums it up, really.

Why just Scotland? I am all for setting a large pack loose in the centre of London. Save having to cull cockneys to keep their numbers down.

Really? I heard that the joke was "What's the difference between The Rolling Stones and a Scotsman? The Rolling Stones sing, 'Hey, you! Get off of my cloud!' whereas the Scotsman says, 'Hey MacLeod, get offa my ewe!'"


I'm gonna get hurt now aren't I?

Naaa it's the welsh they're world famous for it. The Scots though whats the derogatory stereotype of Scots?

Well allow me to relate this joke.

How was copper wire invented?


Two Scots argueing over a penny.

of course in new mexico the biggest barrier to success is that ranchers dont want them and will shoot any wolf that they think they can get away with shooting

this is effectively the only problem with wolf reintroductions. and it is almost entirely just straight up irrational hatred in the usian case, since all of the reintroduction programs are paired up with compensation for them for livestock lost to wolves and that isn't enough for them. there is also some even more silly opposition from hunters, but their concerns are even more entirely imaginary anyways.

also, check it out, the actual study, i think:
http://www.bio.uio.no/cees/artikler/Nilsen_et_al_Wolf_reintroduction_2007.pdf

i find it interesting that the general favorability towards reintroduction is not just an everywhere you go in usia thing (despite the impression people tend to get, it typically sits at 60-80% in favor in any particular area, with the nationwide average at about 76%), but also already covers rural areas of scotland too.

and this is just interesting;

So, why are sheep farmers not more strongly opposed to wolf reintroduction? Part of the reason may be that, on average, little or no profit is made directly from sheep by Highland farmers— profits accrue through subsidies. For example, the average profit per sheep farm in the Highlands in 1999–2000 was £24 300, of which £24 500 was through subsidies (SEERAD 2001). In other words, without subsidies, the average sheep farm made an operating loss.

i wonder how remote the most remote part of mainland scotland is.
from one particular stereotype, all of it is remote :p

as for me, having wolves reintrouduced sounds like a great idea. they were there before, they should be there again.
ive always wanted a wolf as a pet too

this is effectively the only problem with wolf reintroductions. and it is almost entirely just straight up irrational hatred in the usian case, since all of the reintroduction programs are paired up with compensation for them for livestock lost to wolves and that isn't enough for them. there is also some even more silly opposition from hunters, but their concerns are even more entirely imaginary anyways.

also, check it out, the actual study, i think:
http://www.bio.uio.no/cees/artikler/Nilsen_et_al_Wolf_reintroduction_2007.pdf

i find it interesting that the general favorability towards reintroduction is not just an everywhere you go in usia thing (despite the impression people tend to get, it typically sits at 60-80% in favor in any particular area, with the nationwide average at about 76%), but also already covers rural areas of scotland too.

and this is just interesting;

Livestock lost? Well i'd be annoyed too if i was a farmer but if i was told in advance i'd have time to prepare.
Hunters complaints i find are laughable, until i see a pheasant with a gun i have no cares for hunters.

Aye farmers have it tough in UK.
I think alot of people would like a re-introduction of Wolves, it's making sure you don't get sued for some obscure offense is the tricky part.