NationStates Jolt Archive

If Organized Religion cheapens life, why did the Church make so many advances? You know, Elementary Schools were invented by the Church. Most of the greatest scientists came from the Church. Most reformers were religious. Organized religion only becomes the problem when it becomes the state or is used by the state.

Bullcrap, the Church did everything it could to hold us back, make us ignorant and backward, remember that without the medieval period it's estimated we would have gotten to the moon 500 years earlier (with the Greeks).

if he had been religious, he would have said that knowing that the body is just a shell and that he was releasing his victims to go to heaven made it easier for him to kill.

he was crazy. he would have latched on to any reason why it was OK to kill and eat people.
Okay, this is a good one, we risk going down the old religious and anti-religious route here. the plain fact is does it matter if we evolved from apes or God made us, we are sentient beings and therefore are aware of our actions, although not the consequences of them, and we know it is wrong to kill, hurt or make each other suffer. The way we know this is by the feelings of guilt that we have damage others. Sometimes the only way to live with our guilt is to suppress it, which makes us unable to have empathy for others (a definition of a psychopath)...

Almanite

ps just out of interest I am a Christian and do believe that life has purpose...

Okay, this is a good one, we risk going down the old religious and anti-religious route here. the plain fact is does it matter if we evolved from apes or God made us, we are sentient beings and therefore are aware of our actions, although not the consequences of them, and we know it is wrong to kill, hurt or make each other suffer. The way we know this is by the feelings of guilt that we have damage others. Sometimes the only way to live with our guilt is to suppress it, which makes us unable to have empathy for others (a definition of a psychopath)...

Almanite

ps just out of interest I am a Christian and do believe that life has purpose...
Yes but now you are going against your own religion, do you think the ancient Hebrews knew that murder was wrong before they got the 10 Commandments?

The question is motivation, and when it all comes down to it religion threatens hell.

Yes but now you are going against your own religion, do you think the ancient Hebrews knew that murder was wrong before they got the 10 Commandments?

The question is motivation, and when it all comes down to it religion threatens hell.

Except for all the ones that don't have a hell.

Which is most of them.

Except for all the ones that don't have a hell.

Which is most of them.

What's the motivation then?

I watching the interview with Jeffery Dahmer earlier in it he mentioned he felt evolution cheapens life and in a weird way him believing in it led to him killing. Now I know we shouldn't take cues from psychopaths but is there something to that? Is the idea that we aren't here for any special reason, that we are simply animals and that when we die nothing happens and the best people and the worst, most sadistic end up in the same place, does that cheapen life? Would life mean more if we were special sacred creations that are here for a purpose?

1. He's a nutjob murderer looking for an excuse.
2. This makes me think of "Wating for Godot". There's a film version. It's rather tedious and completely ridiculous, but the existentialist idea is interesting.
3. No, it doesn't cheapen life.
4. Why does the fact that were are animals, and when we die nothing happens, make us any less special? Just because we supposedly evolved from monkeys doesn't mean we don't have a purpose. His logic is ridiculous.
5. I believe in evolution, and I believe that I have some sort of purpose.

Same motivation anyone would have for not killing, raping, stealing, et cetera.

Not going to jail?

What's the motivation then?

Same motivation anyone would have for not killing, raping, stealing, et cetera.

I don't know if this is sarcasm or not, but I do find it worrying that so many religious people claim that, if they didn't believe in their particular deity, then they'd cheerfully rob, rape and kill on a whim. It's also very amusing when these same people claim that Atheists are immoral...

I believe in God, but that isn't the reason I don't murder, rape etc - the thing is regardless of how we got here, we're here now and life should be treated with respect and love. What if we were just placed here by chance? Does that mean we cannot aspire to be more? If we work hard and join together, is there not a possibility that we can ascend to something great?

Even with nothing, we can work hard and create something from that - so why lower ourselves to the acts of murder and rape when we can all be some much better than that.

No we will never be shiny happy people holding hands (thank god, because I hate that damn song), but maybe, just maybe, we can be a somewhat peaceful people...either that, or I just have to keep searching for that magic lamp...

Not going to jail?

No, not being a sociopath and having this thing called empathy. Apparently that's a quality you lack.

No, not being a sociopath and having this thing called empathy. Apparently that's a quality you lack.Empathy is not a quality that can be lacking.

Yes but now you are going against your own religion, do you think the ancient Hebrews knew that murder was wrong before they got the 10 Commandments?

A teacher of mine used to say, "If your civilization has gotten to the point where you actually have to threaten people with eternal torture in order to get them to stop killing each other, you're pretty much buggered already."

Empathy is not a quality that can be lacking.Perhaps you're only saying this to excuse the fact that you have none?

Evolution puts the ultimate value on life; it's the mechanism that insures the survival of all life on Earth and, arguably, in the universe.

Religion (note that I do not say God or faith) runs diametrically counter to evolution, seeming to support the notion that God's supposed will is more important than all the life on Earth and, arguably, the universe.

As I recall, however, God said, "Thou shalt not kill." Religion has been looking for exceptions to that rule ever since.

As I recall, however, God said, "Thou shalt not kill." Religion has been looking for exceptions to that rule ever since.That particular God has too.

Evolution makes me relize how fragile and amazing life is. Not cheap at all.

I think being the byproduct of 4 billion years of our ancestors constantly fighting to survive and constantly overcoming the odds does not cheapen life. It makes it a lot cooler than saying "God did it".

5. I believe in evolution, and I believe that I have some sort of purpose.

Exactly what is our purpose according to you? I really can't see one except those we would prefer ourselves and maybe staying alive and procreating.

Exactly what is our purpose according to you?.

Not addressed to me, but..
whatever we want it to be ?

whatever we want it to be ?

I agree, but if we can randomly choose our own purpose wouldn't that mean that all purposes you choose are equally meaningless? If I can choose everything as a purpose, then how can we value certain purposes? Are the purposes "helping as many people as possible", "collecting as many stamps as possible" and "raping as many people as possible" all equally meaningful? And how do you rate them without there being some kind of greater purpose?

I agree, but if we can randomly choose our own purpose wouldn't that mean that all purposes you choose are equally meaningless? If I can choose everything as a purpose, then how can we value certain purposes? Are the purposes "helping as many people as possible", "collecting as many stamps as possible" and "raping as many people as possible" all equally meaningful? And how do you rate them without there being some kind of greater purpose?

Well, why does purpose have to have objective value?

Perhaps you're only saying this to excuse the fact that you have none?

Theres a diffrence b/w "empathy" and "sympathy."

Empathy is "I have shared a similar experiance, I know how hard it is for you. I feel bad for you. Heres what I did......"

Sympathy is "I can't imagine what it would be like. It must be so hard for you. I feel bad for you"

And yet i think that empathy is a quality, just one that grows over time, like wisdom is supposed to

No, not being a sociopath and having this thing called empathy. Apparently that's a quality you lack.

You overrated the forces that hold society together.

Even if "evolution cheapening life" wasn't a really dumb idea, it's much slower than inflation anyway, so it's a net increase.

Exactly what is our purpose according to you? I really can't see one except those we would prefer ourselves and maybe staying alive and procreating.

I don't know what your purpose is.

But while I am fully aware that, as animals, our primary purpose is to reproduce and further the species, I actively choose to make my life mean more than that.

Well, why does purpose have to have objective value?

It doesn't, I think that nothing has an intrinsic value. But I ask myself, if nothing has an intrinsic value, if there is no intrinsic goodness, why would I want to behave morally? Is it even possible to act morally without a something you see as good? Why would I think that being happy is better than being sad? It's all subjective and without real importance, mere chemical processes in our brains, comparable with a plant "wanting" to grow towards the sun (but a little bit more complex).
In a sense we're all just drug-addicts, they're just a little bit more straight-forward in releasing the right kind of chemicals in the right spot. (and a little bit more short-sighted since real drug addiction mostly doesn't bring happiness).

But while I am fully aware that, as animals, our primary purpose is to reproduce and further the species, I actively choose to make my life mean more than that.

Could you please explain this a little bit more? Sorry, but it does sound a little bit like self-delusion. Like someone wanting to believe in god to give his or her life meaning.


(I'm not trying to be hostile or something, I hope I don't come over like that)

Even if "evolution cheapening life" wasn't a really dumb idea, it's much slower than inflation anyway, so it's a net increase.

Life's stock is falling, though. They've got to find some way to increase profits. Personally, I think this whole "evolution" thing is just a hyped up marketing ploy.

It doesn't, I think that nothing has an intrinsic value. But I ask myself, if nothing has an intrinsic value, if there is no intrinsic goodness, why would I want to behave morally?
Why would you not ? Millions of people would dislike you if you did not.
And could possibly make that dislike known in painful ways.

Why would I think that being happy is better than being sad? It's all subjective and without real importance, mere chemical processes in our brains, comparable with a plant "wanting" to grow towards the sun (but a little bit more complex).

Correct.

I don't see how it would cheapen life.

I don't know about others, but my view on evolution makes me see all of life (at least in our biosphere) as a unit of sorts. Yes, individual variations come and go (including humans one day, by evolution into another form, or by elimination), but the life itself goes on. It's the pool from which we all spring.

Therefore, it has a collective value. Preserve the pool, and life goes on.

It could make you a tree-hugger.

There are a lot of ways in which you could interpret it to increase our "value" of life.

Why would you not ? Millions of people would dislike you if you did not.
And could possibly make that dislike known in painful ways.

I doubt if millions would hate me :p, but I get what you mean. Why should I care about what others think of me?
And would that be a good reason to not do immoral things against people who can't retaliate (people in the future for instance)? Would that be a good reason to not act immorally in such a way that nobody could punish me?
Maybe it gives me a reason to not act bad, but certainly not to act good (for instance not stealing >< giving to charity). Also, is it possible to act good without any intrinsic good existing?

I doubt if millions would hate me :p, but I get what you mean. Why should I care about what others think of me?
And would that be a good reason to not do immoral things against people who can't retaliate (people in the future for instance)? Would that be a good reason to not act immorally in such a way that nobody could punish me?

Well.. if everybody acted "immorally" life would suck for everyone (except the rare few gangleaders). Everyone most likely including you.

So indirectly it is in your best interest to promote "good" behaviour.

Exactly what is our purpose according to you? I really can't see one except those we would prefer ourselves and maybe staying alive and procreating.

She says SHE believes SHE has a purpose. And i think i could vouch for that :p

Same motivation anyone would have for not killing, raping, stealing, et cetera.

Tacos? Porn?

Well, why does purpose have to have objective value?

Easy answer, it doesn't. Call it meaning, or call it purpose, it's subjective innit!

Capitalism cheapens by reducing people to the state of commodities.

it might if it actually existed

Wow, are you for real? Or are you just that ignorant?

it might if it actually existed

Wow, are you for real? Or are you just that ignorant?

Just view their other posts and it won't take you long to realise that it is the latter.

it might

fixed

Wow, are you for real? Or are you just that ignorant?

No, he's actually not real. You're just that schizo.

Capitalism cheapens by reducing people to the state of commodities.

Oh good! How much am I worth then? I've been thinking about whoring myself out and I wasn't sure what I should charge.

Also, I think it would be totally awesome if I had a factory that made more of me.

fixed

I'm telling you, man, you are a horrible mechanic!

RhynoDD;13505979']Oh good! How much am I worth then? I've been thinking about whoring myself out and I wasn't sure what I should charge.

Also, I think it would be totally awesome if I had a factory that made more of me. (The idea of such a factory should frighten you all very much)

http://www.cbr.ru/eng/bank-notes_coins/bank-notes/5_1.jpg

http://www.cbr.ru/eng/bank-notes_coins/bank-notes/5_1.jpg

Five rubles, good to know. I wonder if they've ever heard of syphilis in Siberia...

RhynoDD;13505979']No, he's actually not real. You're just that schizo.


The voices in my head tell my Im totally normal.

The voices in my head tell my Im totally normal.

The voices in your head are capitalist pigs.

RhynoDD;13506033']The voices in your head are capitalist pigs.

They were until the prolateriat voices revolted.

The voices in my head tell my Im totally normal.

Well, you must be then. :p

Here's a link that's shorter than reading the talk.origins FAQ

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/id/defense-ev.html

Don't bother with trying to say that evolution "cheapens" anything.

Here's a link that's shorter than reading the talk.origins FAQ

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/id/defense-ev.html

Don't bother with trying to say that evolution "cheapens" anything.

I'm fairly certain that I'd be worth more than 5 rubles without evolution. Like, 10 rubles. 20 without syphilis.

RhynoDD;13506364']I'm fairly certain that I'd be worth more than 5 rubles without evolution. Like, 10 rubles. 20 without syphilis.

Nah, without evolution you'd only be worth 1 ruble, you're worth 8 if you don't have any STD's ;)

I'll take Evolution and Adaptation over Stagnation and Extinction, Alex.

Nah, without evolution you'd only be worth 1 ruble, you're worth 8 if you don't have any STD's ;)

What if I have more than one?

RhynoDD;13506380']What if I have more than one?

Then you'll be paying rather than being paid :p

Then you'll be paying rather than being paid :p

That would explain how I got them.

I'll take Evolution and Adaptation over Stagnation and Extinction, Alex.ayup

I think inflation has followed evolution throughout history..so, maybe?

I think inflation has followed evolution throughout history..so, maybe?

It's like mass, maybe?