NationStates Jolt Archive

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080228/ap_on_re_us/prison_population



I think it's time to go for more creative, punishment-fits-the-crime type of measures.

Obviously what we are doing now isn't working.


Or make the main goal of prison rehabilitation, you know, something we used to do that WORKED, rather than this eye for an eye crap.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080228/ap_on_re_us/prison_population

Using state-by-state data, the report says 2,319,258 Americans were in jail or prison at the start of 2008 — one out of every 99.1 adults. Whether per capita or in raw numbers, it's more than any other nation.

The report, released Thursday by the Pew Center on the States, said the 50 states spent more than $49 billion on corrections last year, up from less than $11 billion 20 years earlier. The rate of increase for prison costs was six times greater than for higher education spending, the report said.

I think it's time to go for more creative, punishment-fits-the-crime type of measures.

Obviously what we are doing now isn't working.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080228/ap_on_re_us/prison_population



I think it's time to go for more creative, punishment-fits-the-crime type of measures.

Obviously what we are doing now isn't working.

my ideas: Get Drug users out of prison, and into rehab for the harder drugs, and just let the soft users go. Something tells me that will free up tons of space.

Revive the chain-gangs, especially when it comes to vandalism and theft/fraud. It saves the state money, and hard labor should be a better deteriant(sp?) than just jail

Execute more people. After all, shooting someone is cheaper then feeding them. :p

Or we could repeal drug laws...

I agree it's a problem.

Also...
http://www.hrw.org/backgrounder/usa/race/

Incarceration of Blacks

· In twelve states, between 10 and 15 percent of adult black men are incarcerated.

· In ten states, between 5 and 10 percent of black adults are incarcerated.

· In twelve states, black men are incarcerated at rates between twelve and sixteen times greater than those of white men.

· In fifteen states, black women are incarcerated at rates between ten and thirty-five times greater than those of white women.

· In six states, black youth under age eighteen are incarcerated in adult facilities at rates between twelve and twenty-five times greater than those of white youth.

Incarceration of Hispanics
· In nine states, between 4 and nearly 8 percent of adult Latino men are incarcerated.

· In twelve states, between 2 and 4 percent of Hispanic adults (men and women) are incarcerated.

· In ten states, Latino men are incarcerated at rates between five and nine times greater than those of white men.

· In eight states, Latina women are incarcerated rates that are between four and seven times greater than those of white women.

· In four states, Hispanic youth under age eighteen are incarcerated in adult facilities at rates between seven and seventeen times greater than those of white youth.








http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance/jailrair.htm
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/correct.htm#Programs
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance/jailrair.gif
Jail incarceration rates by race and ethnicity, 1990-2006
Number of jail inmates per 100,000 U.S. residents

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Year White non-Hispanic Black non-Hispanic Hispanic of any race

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1990 89 560 245
1991 92 594 247
1992 93 618 251
1993 94 633 262
1994 98 656 274
1995 104 670 263
1996 111 640 276
1997 117 706 293
1998 125 716 292
1999 127 730 288
2000 132 736 280
2001 138 703 263
2002 147 740 256
2003 151 748 269
2004 160 765 262
2005 166 800 268
2006 170 815 283

I agree it's a problem.

Also...
http://www.hrw.org/backgrounder/usa/race/

Incarceration of Blacks

· In twelve states, between 10 and 15 percent of adult black men are incarcerated.

· In ten states, between 5 and 10 percent of black adults are incarcerated.

· In twelve states, black men are incarcerated at rates between twelve and sixteen times greater than those of white men.

· In fifteen states, black women are incarcerated at rates between ten and thirty-five times greater than those of white women.

· In six states, black youth under age eighteen are incarcerated in adult facilities at rates between twelve and twenty-five times greater than those of white youth.

Incarceration of Hispanics
· In nine states, between 4 and nearly 8 percent of adult Latino men are incarcerated.

· In twelve states, between 2 and 4 percent of Hispanic adults (men and women) are incarcerated.

· In ten states, Latino men are incarcerated at rates between five and nine times greater than those of white men.

· In eight states, Latina women are incarcerated rates that are between four and seven times greater than those of white women.

· In four states, Hispanic youth under age eighteen are incarcerated in adult facilities at rates between seven and seventeen times greater than those of white youth.








http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance/jailrair.htm
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/correct.htm#Programs
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance/jailrair.gif
Jail incarceration rates by race and ethnicity, 1990-2006
Number of jail inmates per 100,000 U.S. residents

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Year White non-Hispanic Black non-Hispanic Hispanic of any race

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1990 89 560 245
1991 92 594 247
1992 93 618 251
1993 94 633 262
1994 98 656 274
1995 104 670 263
1996 111 640 276
1997 117 706 293
1998 125 716 292
1999 127 730 288
2000 132 736 280
2001 138 703 263
2002 147 740 256
2003 151 748 269
2004 160 765 262
2005 166 800 268
2006 170 815 283




....Can you elaberate on these statistics and what youre trying to show? I would say this is an indication of our serious problems with social equality in terms of inner cities and who can afford lawyers other than a public defender. Are we on the same page?

Or we could repeal drug laws...
agreed

Or make the main goal of prison rehabilitation, you know, something we used to do that WORKED, rather than this eye for an eye crap.

agreed

Most of those people are there for drugs, so maybe we should rethink that.

Our education systems also need to be improved, since I assume the more educated you are the less likely you are to commit an offense.

though rehabilitation and getting the insane out of normal prisons is a very high priority what prisons need most is more money considering how bad things are now its odd this bombshell needs dropping

sadly in the US at least your voting right seem to vanish once you become part of the prison population and after

Land of the free... haha!

I don't know you can certainly get slaves for awful cheap I hear

Land of the free... haha!

Fass, I have a question for you. Do you do anything but troll around, looking for threads to bash America and anywhere that isnt Sweden (because Ive seen you bash other countries as well, your comment "They have computers in Pakistan?" in the Youtube thread was priceless)? You might seriously be the most Eurocentric, nationalistic, arrogant person on this board.

That and your narrow minded anti-religious views make you just as bad as the people who follow a religion who you claim are so beneath you.


Sorry, I really had to get that off my chest, its been building for a while.

....Can you elaberate on these statistics and what youre trying to show? I would say this is an indication of our serious problems with social equality in terms of inner cities and who can afford lawyers other than a public defender. Are we on the same page?

Actually, I think it was one of my roommates that said things like this support a defeatist attitude among young black Americans, so since they think it's all that's expected of them they may as well go in to crime. It tied in to a conversation about Bill Cosby somehow. (I'm the lone white girl in the house- felt like it needed to be stated since I can't imagine a white person saying it and it not coming off very offensive..)

Of course, the disproportionate minority population of prisons always makes me wonder what the system is doing wrong and how can we correct.

Oh, and on the overall overpopulation of prisons? If we sent ADDICTS to REHAB and CRIMINALS to PRISON, that could possibly help things. You know, just a thought. Drug laws are a little ridiculous here.

End the drug war and issue a machine gun to every family:)

Land of the free... haha!

I agree it's a problem.

Also...
http://www.hrw.org/backgrounder/usa/race/

Incarceration of Blacks

· In twelve states, between 10 and 15 percent of adult black men are incarcerated.

· In ten states, between 5 and 10 percent of black adults are incarcerated.

· In twelve states, black men are incarcerated at rates between twelve and sixteen times greater than those of white men.

· In fifteen states, black women are incarcerated at rates between ten and thirty-five times greater than those of white women.

· In six states, black youth under age eighteen are incarcerated in adult facilities at rates between twelve and twenty-five times greater than those of white youth.

Incarceration of Hispanics
· In nine states, between 4 and nearly 8 percent of adult Latino men are incarcerated.

· In twelve states, between 2 and 4 percent of Hispanic adults (men and women) are incarcerated.

· In ten states, Latino men are incarcerated at rates between five and nine times greater than those of white men.

· In eight states, Latina women are incarcerated rates that are between four and seven times greater than those of white women.

· In four states, Hispanic youth under age eighteen are incarcerated in adult facilities at rates between seven and seventeen times greater than those of white youth.








http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance/jailrair.htm
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/correct.htm#Programs
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance/jailrair.gif
Jail incarceration rates by race and ethnicity, 1990-2006
Number of jail inmates per 100,000 U.S. residents

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Year White non-Hispanic Black non-Hispanic Hispanic of any race

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1990 89 560 245
1991 92 594 247
1992 93 618 251
1993 94 633 262
1994 98 656 274
1995 104 670 263
1996 111 640 276
1997 117 706 293
1998 125 716 292
1999 127 730 288
2000 132 736 280
2001 138 703 263
2002 147 740 256
2003 151 748 269
2004 160 765 262
2005 166 800 268
2006 170 815 283

And? Are you getting at something? I can only assume with your bigoted past posts that you use this as proof that blacks are bad people.

And? Are you getting at something? I can only assume with your bigoted past posts that you use this as proof that blacks are bad people.

Ok, see, thats why I asked him. I was giving him a chance to defend himself. Im giving him the benefit of the doubt because I dont think thats what he means by it. I think hes just showing us more prison statistics, and lets face it, they are accurate.

Fass, I have a question for you. Do you do anything but troll around, looking for threads to bash America and anywhere that isnt Sweden (because Ive seen you bash other countries as well, your comment "They have computers in Pakistan?" in the Youtube thread was priceless)? You might seriously be the most Eurocentric, nationalistic, arrogant person on this board.

That and your narrow minded anti-religious views make you just as bad as the people who follow a religion who you claim are so beneath you.


Sorry, I really had to get that off my chest, its been building for a while.


:fluffle::fluffle::fluffle:

Good post :D

And? Are you getting at something? I can only assume with your bigoted past posts that you use this as proof that blacks are bad people.

I hear they can't control themselves when exposed to tender white flesh

white mans burden and all

Fass, I have a question for you. Do you do anything but troll around, looking for threads to bash America and anywhere that isnt Sweden (because Ive seen you bash other countries as well, your comment "They have computers in Pakistan?" in the Youtube thread was priceless)? You might seriously be the most Eurocentric, nationalistic, arrogant person on this board.

That and your narrow minded anti-religious views make you just as bad as the people who follow a religion who you claim are so beneath you.


Sorry, I really had to get that off my chest, its been building for a while.

I don't care what you think of me!:p

Click Stand;13489712']I don't care what you think!:p

Thats what he'll say. Because he's far above me.:rolleyes:

Wait a minute now - there may be 2 million+ people in prisons here, but that doesn't make 2 million+ Americans in prison - thousands of them are non-citizens, remember. :p

Ok, see, thats why I asked him. I was giving him a chance to defend himself. Im giving him the benefit of the doubt because I dont think thats what he means by it. I think hes just showing us more prison statistics, and lets face it, they are accurate.

Of course they are accurate. No one can deny that minorities are more likely to be incarcerated. And it is because the rest of society holds them back thinking that all the progress in the 1960s was enough for eternity, when in fact, as whites improve measures need to be taken to ensure that others are improved as well. We all know that if we look at areas with large portions of minorities, we will see there are poorly funded schools, crimes are the highest, health care is abysmal, and the quality of life is well below the standards. Put any person of color, creed or background in the same circumstances and you will see a similar pattern.

from what i ahve heard from talking to people that have been in prison, druggies do need to be pt in rehab and not in prison however they should make sure they stay clean and have a special rehab prsion if they get caught with drugs after rehab.
rehabilitaiton of prisoners(non druggies) will only work if they agree to work with it and rehab themselves. those that aren't going to rehab should be the ones sent to the max security prisons with solitary at all times so their lifes become so miserable that people will think twice before commiting a crime.

I agree it's a problem.

Also...

A human being is not a statistic. Remember that.

Wait a minute now - there may be 2 million+ people in prisons here, but that doesn't make 2 million+ Americans in prison - thousands of them are non-citizens, remember. :p
Not really, there was an article that came out the other day noting that American citizens are FAR more likely to commit crimes and be in jail than immigrants, even illegals. I think the ratio was something like 2.1 more likely.

....Can you elaberate on these statistics and what youre trying to show? I would say this is an indication of our serious problems with social equality in terms of inner cities and who can afford lawyers other than a public defender. Are we on the same page?it says the US is a racist shithole.

Not really, there was an article that came out the other day noting that American citizens are FAR more likely to commit crimes and be in jail than immigrants, even illegals. I think the ratio was something like 2.1 more likely.

which is in addition to the other article from last year. and the other other article from before that. it should be common knowledge at this point that immigration keeps our crime rate artificially low (though i can guess why it isn't).

Not really, there was an article that came out the other day noting that American citizens are FAR more likely to commit crimes and be in jail than immigrants, even illegals. I think the ratio was something like 2.1 more likely.

And? I didn't say they were more likelky to commit crimes. Anywhere.

I agree it's a problem.

Also...
http://www.hrw.org/backgrounder/usa/race/

Incarceration of Blacks

· In twelve states, between 10 and 15 percent of adult black men are incarcerated.

· In ten states, between 5 and 10 percent of black adults are incarcerated.

· In twelve states, black men are incarcerated at rates between twelve and sixteen times greater than those of white men.

· In fifteen states, black women are incarcerated at rates between ten and thirty-five times greater than those of white women.

· In six states, black youth under age eighteen are incarcerated in adult facilities at rates between twelve and twenty-five times greater than those of white youth.

Incarceration of Hispanics
· In nine states, between 4 and nearly 8 percent of adult Latino men are incarcerated.

· In twelve states, between 2 and 4 percent of Hispanic adults (men and women) are incarcerated.

· In ten states, Latino men are incarcerated at rates between five and nine times greater than those of white men.

· In eight states, Latina women are incarcerated rates that are between four and seven times greater than those of white women.

· In four states, Hispanic youth under age eighteen are incarcerated in adult facilities at rates between seven and seventeen times greater than those of white youth.








http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance/jailrair.htm
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/correct.htm#Programs
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance/jailrair.gif
Jail incarceration rates by race and ethnicity, 1990-2006
Number of jail inmates per 100,000 U.S. residents

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Year White non-Hispanic Black non-Hispanic Hispanic of any race

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1990 89 560 245
1991 92 594 247
1992 93 618 251
1993 94 633 262
1994 98 656 274
1995 104 670 263
1996 111 640 276
1997 117 706 293
1998 125 716 292
1999 127 730 288
2000 132 736 280
2001 138 703 263
2002 147 740 256
2003 151 748 269
2004 160 765 262
2005 166 800 268
2006 170 815 283

Well of course, everyone knows T3H Negrows is T3H Criminilz

THat is much much more than in Russia.
This prove Americans are all criminals. Why else would they all be in jail?

Thats what he'll say. Because he's far above me.

Well, duh!

it says the US is a racist shithole.

Well, duh!

I don't know you can certainly get slaves for awful cheap I hear
Cheap, but not free.
Well, duh!



Well, duh!

...said the man from (and I say this with love) what is almost definitely the whitest place on earth, in several ways.

Oh yeah, let the excuses for the racial demographics begin too. Yeah, you see it's racism that so many black men are in prison, it's not because they commit the crimes at such a high rate or anything. Oh they do? Well it's because of economic reasons due to racism! Really? Well since the entire system is now rigged completely in favor of minorities being hired or admitted to higher education despite not being the best candidates, I just don't know how long even the Obama types will be able to defend this.

You know with the massive number of men instead of women in prison, I guess it's just as fair to say that's all sexism. Not common sense that men are more violent and commit many more crimes.

As for solving this problem. I completely agree with drugs being the biggest problem and beyond ridiculous. Get rid of the drug laws and make executions mandatory for murder. You should get one appeal and then get shot in the back of the head on the day the ruling is affirmed.

The best way to fix the justice system would be to do away with the juries and all the delays and start having people judged by actual judges who know to look at evidence and not let a smarmy lawyer get someone off by charming a dumb bitch in the box.

Oh well no duh, this explains things a bit

27% are illegal immigrants or foregin persons .

20% are serving for drug-related offenses.

You know with the massive number of men instead of women in prison, I guess it's just as fair to say that's all sexism. Not common sense that men are more violent and commit many more crimes.


To quote Fass "well duh" they commit more crimes they are in prison remember. So I will comment on the more violent part.

The more violence is due more to society influencing gender roles than some chemical imbalance to kill that is inside men.

So I guess you could say sexism to a certain extent.

it says the US is a racist shithole.

No, it says that minorities make up the majority of poor inner city areas, which tend to have more crime.


Statistics I see show that Europe's prisons are filled mostly with their immagrants (mostly Muslims), so I can make the same claim about Europe.

There are more women than men.

However there is a huge difference in the number of crimes committed between men and women. Now is that because of sexism and "socioeconomic" problems, among other leftist buzzwords or simply because men happen to commit more crimes?

Blacks commit far more crimes in terms of per capita population and instead of accepting that as the way it is, like men over women, there's always excuses and someone else to blame and I don't buy that.

There are more women than men.

However there is a huge difference in the number of crimes committed between men and women. Now is that because of sexism and "socioeconomic" problems, among other leftist buzzwords or simply because men happen to commit more crimes?

Blacks commit far more crimes in terms of per capita population and instead of accepting that as the way it is, like men over women, there's always excuses and someone else to blame and I don't buy that.

If you really, really think that blacks just inherantly commit more crimes and economic and social pressures have nothing to do with it, not only are you really racist, but your extremelly ignorant too.

It might be helpful to remind everyone what the most statistically-important indicator as to whether a person will commit a crime is:

Not race, or SES, or immigration status. Age. The few people who commit crimes past the age of 30 are the odd professional criminals, who represent a tiny proportion of the prison population. Young people are our country's criminals, and that happens to mean that a good number will be black and hispanic, since those groups have far more kids than white people do. Not that there aren't disparities in enforcement in urban areas (etc.) but age tells most of the story.

There are more women than men. However there is a huge difference in the number of crimes committed between men and women. Now is that because of sexism and "socioeconomic" problems, among other leftist buzzwords or simply because men happen to commit more crimes?

This is due to society affecting peoples actions, including socioeconomic problems. That doesn't mean that your statement makes sense however because men do commit more crimes, so it's not like it is one or the other.

Blacks commit far more crimes in terms of per capita population and instead of accepting that as the way it is, like men over women, there's always excuses and someone else to blame and I don't buy that.

I can't seem to find statistics for or against this statement, so maybe you could find some but:

If you measured blacks and whites who were equivalent in economic standing, they would most likely be similar numbers. This is because poor people are more likely to commit crimes, and black people on average are more poor than white people.

I posted that to get a debate rolling and put up some more information on it to show exactly WHO is in prison.

I do not believe that blacks (or any race) are born to be criminals, or born with a crime gene...or something.

What I do beleive has a HUGE factor in this...and Cosby touched on it...is that Black Culture (ghetto culture, if you will) affects the black community like no other and has all the negative social values that keep blacks from actually integrating into society. I can't use my university as an example because it's too big...but for my high school..for example..there were just a few black kids who were "oreos"...white on the inside black onthe outside....because they did not conform to black culture and were picked on by blacks for being smart, overachieving and valuing education.

I think this culture, that a HUGE ammount of the black community grows up influenced by, is what is causing the negative influences that isolate them from society and put them in prison.

I'd say it's a cultural issue and not a genetic/racial issue.

If you really, really think that blacks just inherantly commit more crimes and economic and social pressures have nothing to do with it, not only are you really racist, but your extremelly ignorant too.

It depends on what you mean. I agree that's it's the racial identity politics, persecuted victim mentality and widely accepted excuses for everything that infect the black culture and cause this and not necessarily genetics, but blaming anyone other than the black community that created and maintains this culture is ridiculous. The devolved versions of music and entertainment for example in the form of rap music and the BET-type movies and mouthpiece for excuses.

And I'm very aware that were are plenty of good hard-working black folks and a large amount of whites who also suffer from the modern era of making excuses for everything and blaming others for their problems that lead to crimes.

It depends on what you mean. I agree that's it's the racial identity politics, persecuted victim mentality and widely accepted excuses for everything that infect black culture and cause this and not necessarily genetics, but blaming anyone other than the black community that created and maintains this culture is ridiculous. The devolved versions of music and entertainment for example in the form of rap music and the BET-type movies and mouthpiece for excuses.

And I'm very aware that were are plenty of good hard-working blacks folks and a very, very large number of whites who also suffer from the modern era of making excuses for everything and blaming others for their problems that lead to crimes.


Ok, I can understand that opinion. I woudnt say its the main factor, but I can at least understand why someone might think it would.

We should not incarcerate for minor drug offenses, instead should charge a fine.

And the other 95% of criminals? :p

Contrary to myth, very few people ever see prison for simple possession. I know a dealer here in California (where intent to sell is required to send you to prison) who, even with obvious intent to sell, was offered probation. He broke it, and did 4 years in a minimum-security lockup, but the point remains that minor drug crimes don't fill our prisons.

We should not incarcerate for minor drug offenses, instead should charge a fine.

Oh yeah, let the excuses for the racial demographics begin too. Yeah, you see it's racism that so many black men are in prison, it's not because they commit the crimes at such a high rate or anything. Oh they do?

interesting fact - throughout the entire course of history, the oppressed group of a place has always been thrown in mass into the criminal class. no matter who that oppressed group is. but that is clearly just a coincidence, right?

Well since the entire system is now rigged completely in favor of minorities being hired or admitted to higher education despite not being the best candidates

oh? do tell how this is the case.

make executions mandatory for murder. You should get one appeal and then get shot in the back of the head on the day the ruling is affirmed.

yeah, it's not like we should be concerned about justice or anything...

interesting fact - throughout the entire course of history, the oppressed group of a place has always been thrown in mass into the criminal class.

Only because they commit the most crimes. ;)

Five words:

End. The. Fucking. Drug. War.

Five words:

End. The. Fucking. Drug. War.

You may want to learn more than five words.

You may want to learn more than five words.

:confused:

Let's start with a basic yes or no question.

"Do black men in the United States commit crimes more frequently than white men?"

Let's start with a basic yes or no question.

"Do black men in the United States commit crimes more frequently than white men?"

The question is more like: Do poor men committ more crimes than rich men in the United States?

Rich black people in the US do not steal more than white men do. Crime is strongly linked economic impoverishment, not to race.

The apparent corelation between race and crime actually covers the true relation between poverty and crime becuase most whites in America are rich or upper upper middle class while most blacks are impoverished.

As for solving this problem. I completely agree with drugs being the biggest problem and beyond ridiculous. Get rid of the drug laws and make executions mandatory for murder. You should get one appeal and then get shot in the back of the head on the day the ruling is affirmed.

The best way to fix the justice system would be to do away with the juries and all the delays and start having people judged by actual judges who know to look at evidence and not let a smarmy lawyer get someone off by charming a dumb bitch in the box.

Drug laws ought to follow alcohol laws: don't expose minors to drugs, and don't drive a vehicle or otherwise endanger others whole impaired.

The original purpose of the jury was twofold: Examine the facts and JUDGE THE LAW. A jury has the authority to annul bad laws by rendering a "not guilty" verdict in spite of someone's act of breaking a law. A judge is not impartial. A judge is effectively an agent of government, so there is no guarantee that a judge's ruling will be in your favor if your dispute is with the government. The jury trial is intended to be the hidden defense against government tyranny.

As a side note, "peers" in the term "jury of peers" originally meant persons acquainted with the parties accused who were competent to judge the evidence and character of the accused. While this introduces a degree of prejudice, it mostly removes the legalese bull**** from the equation. Both sides would have the ability to remove jurors they felt were prejudiced against their case, and the requirement for unanimous jury verdict would still offer protection.

I oppose the death penalty because I don't like the risk of mistaken verdicts. I favor life in prison with hard labor, and the convicted can request the death sentence at any time during his term.

Liberty or Death!

A human being is not a statistic. Remember that.

You're right. One human being is a tragedy, but about 2 million would be a statistic.

Time for maths.

1/100 of Americans in prison + costly economic black hole of maintaining our prison system + Oppression of the poor,

therefore

War on Drugs = Ultimate FAILURE.

Time for maths.

1/100 of Americans in prison + costly economic black hole of maintaining our prison system + Oppression of the poor,

therefore

War on Drugs = Ultimate FAILURE.

See, this is the problem with posting without reading any of the rest of the thread first.

Let's start with a basic yes or no question.

"Do black men in the United States commit crimes more frequently than white men?"

maybe, but on a much more modest scale.
also, depends on whether we are talking about things that the state says they can't do or things that are wrong.

Not surprising at all, considering that in the 90's Yeltsin released previous Soviet figures for prisoner rates and they were far lower than in the US, the bourgeois media was very quiet after that....

The question is more like: Do poor men commit more crimes than rich men in the United States?

Rich black people in the US do not steal more than white men do. Crime is strongly linked economic impoverishment, not to race.

The apparent correlation between race and crime actually covers the true relation between poverty and crime because most whites in America are rich or upper upper middle class while most blacks are impoverished.

The correlation in economics cannot be overlooked. I agree crime has a direct link to economics regardless of race.

I don't agree with your presumption that most whites are upper middle or higher. There is a large group of poor whites in the US. Maybe the percentages of poor whites is less than Blacks. However as raw numbers whites still have the largest portion of poverty in the US.

Also the legal system is skewed in sentencing. Drug sentencing is particularly harsh as with many of the crimes that tend to be committed by the poor. Conversely white collar crimes that are typically committed by better off individuals are shockingly light in sentencing.

[/I] Quote:
Originally Posted by HSH Prince Eric
Well since the entire system is now rigged completely in favor of minorities being hired or admitted to higher education despite not being the best candidates

oh? do tell how this is the case.

In the United States it's callled "Affirmative Action." Google it my boy and you'll understand the point.

In the United States it's callled "Affirmative Action." Google it my boy and you'll understand the point.

oh, i know all about affirmative action. the fact that you think it is the answer to my question implies that you, not so much.

Also the legal system is skewed in sentencing. Drug sentencing is particularly harsh as with many of the crimes that tend to be committed by the poor. Conversely white collar crimes that are typically committed by better off individuals are shockingly light in sentencing.

and at the top of the pyramid, proclaiming your felonies on national teevee doesn't seem to be enough to get you in any trouble at all.

Or we could repeal drug laws...

There's something incredibly disturbing about that statement from someone named Conservative Morality. ;)

I hear they can't control themselves when exposed to tender white flesh

white mans burden and all

I want to say something terribly inappropriate about white woman's burden, but I'm restraining myself. (I'm white and my bf is black :p)

Not really, there was an article that came out the other day noting that American citizens are FAR more likely to commit crimes and be in jail than immigrants, even illegals. I think the ratio was something like 2.1 more likely.

Well, if you're here illegally you're sure as hell not going to want to get caught, are you?

Oh yeah, let the excuses for the racial demographics begin too. Yeah, you see it's racism that so many black men are in prison, it's not because they commit the crimes at such a high rate or anything. Oh they do? Well it's because of economic reasons due to racism! Really? Well since the entire system is now rigged completely in favor of minorities being hired or admitted to higher education despite not being the best candidates, I just don't know how long even the Obama types will be able to defend this.

The entire system is rigged in favor of minorities? Wow, I had no idea. Last I checked, the wealthiest, most powerful and most influential people in the U.S. were still old white men.

I think this culture, that a HUGE ammount of the black community grows up influenced by, is what is causing the negative influences that isolate them from society and put them in prison.

I'd say it's a cultural issue and not a genetic/racial issue.

I agree part of it is cultural, but you also have to look at the reasons that culture arose and the reasons it is maintained. When you grow up as a young black man in a poor urban area, conformity is often survival. Those who make it out of the ghetto to establish brilliant careers do so IN SPITE of their backgrounds, whereas it can be said that some white men (possibly ones from Texas, possibly ones who run the country) achieve BECAUSE of their backgrounds.

It depends on what you mean. I agree that's it's the racial identity politics, persecuted victim mentality and widely accepted excuses for everything that infect the black culture and cause this and not necessarily genetics, but blaming anyone other than the black community that created and maintains this culture is ridiculous. The devolved versions of music and entertainment for example in the form of rap music and the BET-type movies and mouthpiece for excuses.

The black community created this culture entirely themselves? When did they do this, before or after they were legally considered to be "people"?

The BET-type movies. Ah yes. "Waiting To Exhale" has driven so many young men to lives of crime.

And the other 95% of criminals? :p

Contrary to myth, very few people ever see prison for simple possession. I know a dealer here in California (where intent to sell is required to send you to prison) who, even with obvious intent to sell, was offered probation. He broke it, and did 4 years in a minimum-security lockup, but the point remains that minor drug crimes don't fill our prisons.

I also know a dealer in California, a great guy and an old school friend, who was charged with possession and intent to distribute. He spoke to a public defender about the charges, and was told that he should plead guilty, there was no way he could get out of jailtime. He then asked his parents for a loan and paid for an attorney, who told him there was no way he would see jailtime. Guess what? He got stuck in rehab for a month. Tell me socioeconomics don't play a role.

Let's start with a basic yes or no question.

"Do black men in the United States commit crimes more frequently than white men?"

Are black men in the United States more frequently convicted of their charges than white men charged with the same offences?

I also know a dealer in California, a great guy and an old school friend, who was charged with possession and intent to distribute. He spoke to a public defender about the charges, and was told that he should plead guilty, there was no way he could get out of jailtime. He then asked his parents for a loan and paid for an attorney, who told him there was no way he would see jailtime. Guess what? He got stuck in rehab for a month. Tell me socioeconomics don't play a role.

Since when have I been arguing that SES doesn't play a role? The argument was that drug crimes don't fill our prisons, not that money doesn't buy better lawyers.

It would be wonderful if the bloated prison population were due to minor drug offenses - the problem could be solved easily, by changing those laws. That's not the case, however.

oh, i know all about affirmative action. the fact that you think it is the answer to my question implies that you, not so much.

oh did...did i insult your intelligence? poor baby, i'm so sorry that you are smarter than the way you sounded. I'll tell you what, i'll send some crayons and some paper to you so you can sit quietly in the corner coloring while listening to your "Wiggles" audio head set ok? And possibly have some juice before nap time!

Oh yeah, let the excuses for the racial demographics begin too. Yeah, you see it's racism that so many black men are in prison, it's not because they commit the crimes at such a high rate or anything. Oh they do? Well it's because of economic reasons due to racism! Really? Well since the entire system is now rigged completely in favor of minorities being hired or admitted to higher education despite not being the best candidates, I just don't know how long even the Obama types will be able to defend this.Here's the funny thing about crime statistics in Germany: On average, foreign youths commit crimes at a disproportionate level to the percentage they have in the general population. However, when you compare the percentage of foreign youths that come from poor backgrounds to the percentage of crimes commited by foreign youths, they are nigh exactly the same.

Perhaps it is time to build a wall around New York, move all the prisoners there and turn it into a prison city...

...just don't let them grab the President.

Or make the main goal of prison rehabilitation, you know, something we used to do that WORKED, rather than this eye for an eye crap.

Not that I'm against rehabilitation, but at what point did the American prison system practice it and at what point did the system work?

Well I can tell you almost the exact date when the prison system stopped using it the first time round. Concept of rehabilitation have been around for a long time with varying degree of success, but there was a real explosion in the 60s and 70s. A paper was published in the 70s however (Martinson, 1974) the main conclusion of which was "nothing works", which the government jumped on as a reason to 'get tough' and cut rehabilitation programs and focus on punishment. Of course they ignored that fact that a few years later an extensive meta-analysis was published by the same author, modifying his original statement with the fact that some interventions DO work.

Unfortunately I don't know enough about the US prison system to comment on how whether the US prison system has started using mroe rehabilitation now, but certainly towards the mid-90s the UK and Canada started using effective treatment programs extensively in the prison service. And they do work, not perfectly (you'll never get a 100% reduction in recidivism, it's unreliastic due to all the myriad of factors involved in criminality), but as a general rule. With no intervention prison increases the chance of recidivism by about 20% (for comparable offences), prison + rehabilitiation decreases it by 10-30%. This varies between offence type, but the bottem line is that, although it may not be perfect, rehabilitation does work and makes a significant impact on criminal reoffending.

Thanks.

Not that I'm against rehabilitation, but at what point did the American prison system practice it and at what point did the system work?

Well I can tell you almost the exact date when the prison system stopped using it the first time round. Concept of rehabilitation have been around for a long time with varying degree of success, but there was a real explosion in the 60s and 70s. A paper was published in the 70s however (Martinson, 1974) the main conclusion of which was "nothing works", which the government jumped on as a reason to 'get tough' and cut rehabilitation programs and focus on punishment. Of course they ignored that fact that a few years later an extensive meta-analysis was published by the same author, modifying his original statement with the fact that some interventions DO work.

Unfortunately I don't know enough about the US prison system to comment on how whether the US prison system has started using mroe rehabilitation now, but certainly towards the mid-90s the UK and Canada started using effective treatment programs extensively in the prison service. And they do work, not perfectly (you'll never get a 100% reduction in recidivism, it's unreliastic due to all the myriad of factors involved in criminality), but as a general rule. With no intervention prison increases the chance of recidivism by about 20% (for comparable offences), prison + rehabilitiation decreases it by 10-30%. This varies between offence type, but the bottem line is that, although it may not be perfect, rehabilitation does work and makes a significant impact on criminal reoffending.

I imagine prison gangs do not help the problem - do prison authorities turn a blind eye to them or are they just incompetent? Or have I watched too many documentaries?

I imagine prison gangs do not help the problem - do prison authorities turn a blind eye to them or are they just incompetent? Or have I watched too many documentaries?

I think there's a variety of factors involved, one is quite simply practical: prisons are overcrowded, really really overcrowded and massively understaffed for the number of prisoners. This makes it very difficult to effectively deal with gang problems when most of the time the prison officers are struggling to keep basic discipline going. This adds to a prison staff culture which emphasises discipline over welfare*, making it easy (but not necessarily always the case) for prison officers to consider gangs 'not their problem' as long as they don't become overt discipline problems.


* Unfortunately this does actually mean they're less effective at discipline because it's easier to keep discipline and learn about problems/issues happening when the prisoners view you as a human being they know and hopefully like/respect as opposed to a faceless heavy-handed disciplinary force.

Clearly the USA needs much less laws.


>.>
<.<

The argument was that drug crimes don't fill our prisons, not that money doesn't buy better lawyers.

It would be wonderful if the bloated prison population were due to minor drug offenses - the problem could be solved easily, by changing those laws. That's not the case, however.


Really? Because I have seen many statistics showing an absurd number of prisoners in for drug crimes.


Want to show me what your basing this off of that isnt a personal story?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080228/ap_on_re_us/prison_population



I think it's time to go for more creative, punishment-fits-the-crime type of measures.

Obviously what we are doing now isn't working.

I'm not excusing the department of justice in the US as I think it is flawed in many ways. One way I will explain here. In the United States we have stupid drug laws. They criminalize the mere possession of things like a dime bag of weed. While possession will not get you thrown in jail for a first offense in most cases, it will if you are caught again. We also send people to jail for DUI which makes a little sense to me, especially if the person hurt or killed someone while under the influence. Instead of working to rehabilitate this person we stick them in jail, perpetuating the cycle of abuse.

I'll point out that when it comes to murder, the Unites States ranks 24th on the world. So while we have more crime in general, we have less murders. Columbia holds the honor of #1.

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_percap-crime-murders-per-capita

Britain and Australia top the US in violent crime as seen here. (http://www.geoffmetcalf.com/guncontrol_20010302.html)

http://www.drugwardistortions.org/distortion13.htm

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance.htm

http://w3.ag.uiuc.edu:8001/Liberty/Tales/CrimeAndDrugWar.Html

Statistics can be misleading if you do not put them under the microscope.

I've been in jail.


Really? What for, if you dont mind me asking.

Chilling thought: That's 1 out of 100 Americans incarcerated RIGHT NOW. God only knows how many more have been at some point in their life but are free now.

It's a combination of things but I think ultimately it's got to do with this phrase 'get tough' politicians use to get elected. Whenever someone runs for office they promise to 'get tough' on somebody. Repeat offenders, Drunk Drivers, sex offenders, you name it. It's always SOMEBODY that apparently the politicians want us to believe are getting off light and they're coming in as the new sherriff in town to fox their wagons.

This is prevalent in conservative politicians especially.

Drug addicts need treatment, not jail. I've been in jail, and I met guys who were in there for stupid stuff like narcotics charges. One guy in particular had gone and gotten addicted to crystal meth. Now, what do you think jailtime was going to do to make things better? He's an ADDICT. he needs to be treated or he will go out there and get high again as soon as he's able or his willpower slips. He's a good guy. He really is, but he had lost his job, couldn't be with his child, and was cut off from his family. This is exactly the worst sequence of things that can happen to someone who's trying to kick the habit. They need family. They need support. They need to have a productive focus in their life.

So you tell me, what did his incarceration do to make his life better? The community safer? His family happier?

Another problem: '3 strikes you're out.' This doesn't work either and all it really does is force a judge to impose vastly longer prison terms than m ay be apropriate for the crime in question. Someone who commits the same crimes over and over have NOT learned anything from being imprisoned... so what does our wise Government do? Imprison them some more.... WTF?

I was listening to a radio show this morning and a caller told of how he'd gone to jail for a YEAR over a felony charge. His crime: Writing a bad check to cover rent.

Does that make sense to ANYBODY?

And drug addiction is punishment in and of itself.

If the political system was more representative of the US people (that's all people living in US not just citizens) then i think there would be a reduction in crime.
As people would find faith in their government and take their concerns there first.
To leave a government in the power of the experienced wealthy individuals will inevitably lead to dissillusionment and a general feeling that the government doesn't represent them.

I think all these 'war' ideas only lead to trouble, war on drugs, war on crime. They glamourise these specific crimes, and often if you think you do something which is glamourised you'l probably do it more.

The solution? as i said above, not remove the current MPs, but give the people most likely to commit crime the chance to take part in politics, to make a difference to where they live. No-one wants to live in an area they have no control over, allowing them the vote is not good enough.
people need incentive to vote, to stand for elections to really become a part of their country.
What also was good was outreach workers (well in the UK not sure about US) as they meant people got help at home and not just sent to an institution, as even being a part of an institution like prison is going to have a negative effect on your well-being, and may make you even more likely to commit crime.
That's my thoughts on crime, it is however a very large subject, many books have been written on this so i doubt my comments will really address the issues directly. What i'm saying is needed is increased awareness of what the government does, to be a part of it means you're less likely to hate it.
Hope that helps

So give all the gang bangers and criminals the control over local politics? That will stop crime?

Those European sensibilities.

Posting on NSG too much ;)

Oh shit.


*hides from cops*

Really? What for, if you dont mind me asking.

Posting on NSG too much ;)

Britain and Australia top the US in violent crime as seen here. (http://www.geoffmetcalf.com/guncontrol_20010302.html)

Statistics can be misleading if you do not put them under the microscope.

Yes they can. I've seen that particular study before and the differences in sampling and sample numbers between the countries studied are worrying to say the least (1000 US v 2000 in other countries, phone samples v face-to-face questioning there are a number of issues there, all of which were raised in the second link you gave). I'd be interested to see a more thorough victim survey carried out for cross-cultural responses for a more effective methodology. I suspect that we are still quite high on violent crime, but I suspect the US (certainly going via official statistics) is on a similar level.

Although you need to be careful when comparing official statistics, since US federal statistics on assaults (as complied by the FBI) only count serious assaults, UK and most European statistics include minor assaults and even threats in the category. If you compare just serious assaults the numbers change.

As for solving this problem. I completely agree with drugs being the biggest problem and beyond ridiculous. Get rid of the drug laws and make executions mandatory for murder. You should get one appeal and then get shot in the back of the head on the day the ruling is affirmed.

That's actually not a bad idea.

....Can you elaberate on these statistics and what youre trying to show? I would say this is an indication of our serious problems with social equality in terms of inner cities and who can afford lawyers other than a public defender. Are we on the same page?

I posted that to get a debate rolling and put up some more information on it to show exactly WHO is in prison.

I do not believe that blacks (or any race) are born to be criminals, or born with a crime gene...or something.

What I do beleive has a HUGE factor in this...and Cosby touched on it...is that Black Culture (ghetto culture, if you will) affects the black community like no other and has all the negative social values that keep blacks from actually integrating into society. I can't use my university as an example because it's too big...but for my high school..for example..there were just a few black kids who were "oreos"...white on the inside black onthe outside....because they did not conform to black culture and were picked on by blacks for being smart, overachieving and valuing education.

I think this culture, that a HUGE ammount of the black community grows up influenced by, is what is causing the negative influences that isolate them from society and put them in prison.

I'd say it's a cultural issue and not a genetic/racial issue.

Obviously more executions are needed to "fix" the problem.

Oh shit.


*hides from cops*

*points at KoL*

There he is, officer! Don't let him get away!

That's actually not a bad idea.

No, it's not a bad idea. It's a fucking terrible idea.

Why? It's cheaper than keeping them imprisoned for life.

Keeping costs down is more important than protecting innocent life? You can't be serious.

What innocent life?

The innocent life of people convicted of a murder they didn't commit.

No, it's not a bad idea. It's a fucking terrible idea.

Why? It's cheaper than keeping them imprisoned for life.

I posted that to get a debate rolling and put up some more information on it to show exactly WHO is in prison.

I do not believe that blacks (or any race) are born to be criminals, or born with a crime gene...or something.

What I do beleive has a HUGE factor in this...and Cosby touched on it...is that Black Culture (ghetto culture, if you will) affects the black community like no other and has all the negative social values that keep blacks from actually integrating into society. I can't use my university as an example because it's too big...but for my high school..for example..there were just a few black kids who were "oreos"...white on the inside black onthe outside....because they did not conform to black culture and were picked on by blacks for being smart, overachieving and valuing education.

I think this culture, that a HUGE ammount of the black community grows up influenced by, is what is causing the negative influences that isolate them from society and put them in prison.

I'd say it's a cultural issue and not a genetic/racial issue.

Worse still is the mentality that you're a racist for acknowledging this.

There was an article years ago in, I think, the Washington Post that talked about this. One thing that was pointed out was that these 'civil rights leaders' we have now are nothing but a bunch of self-serving arrogant blowhards. The writer asked, 'where would people like Jackson and Sharpton be if there were no racism?' The answer was they'd be nobodies. This is why they're always inciting a confrontational relationship between the races. it serves their own ends.

The side effect is that it creates a victim mentality within the black community where the 'white man' is ultimately to blame for all of the problems there, and that somehow they're helpless to do anything about it. This is where a lot of the entitlement mentality comes from.

The writer of that article is a black man, and was subsequently ostracized for being a 'race traitor.'

But it's easy to see where a mentality like that can lead to a higher crime rate. If the law is viewed as 'the white man's tool' of oppression then to break the law becomes prestigious. That isn't to say that the whole thing wasn't started years ago as a result of racism, but the self-perpetuating cycle needs to be broken and until it is, statistics like that should be of no surprise.

Keeping costs down is more important than protecting innocent life? You can't be serious.

What innocent life?

That's why it should be almost impossible to convict them, i.e. if there's overwhelming, irrefutable evidence.

Because innocent people never get conviceted, right?:rolleyes:

Worse still is the mentality that you're a racist for acknowledging this.

There was an article years ago in, I think, the Washington Post that talked about this. One thing that was pointed out was that these 'civil rights leaders' we have now are nothing but a bunch of self-serving arrogant blowhards. The writer asked, 'where would people like Jackson and Sharpton be if there were no racism?' The answer was they'd be nobodies. This is why they're always inciting a confrontational relationship between the races. it serves their own ends.

The side effect is that it creates a victim mentality within the black community where the 'white man' is ultimately to blame for all of the problems there, and that somehow they're helpless to do anything about it. This is where a lot of the entitlement mentality comes from.

The writer of that article is a black man, and was subsequently ostracized for being a 'race traitor.'

But it's easy to see where a mentality like that can lead to a higher crime rate. If the law is viewed as 'the white man's tool' of oppression then to break the law becomes prestigious. That isn't to say that the whole thing wasn't started years ago as a result of racism, but the self-perpetuating cycle needs to be broken and until it is, statistics like that should be of no surprise.


Thats another reason Im rooting for Obama in all honosty. Sharpton would be out of a job of America elected a black president.

And thats another reason you all should vote for him. To you really want to listen to Jessy Jackson and Sharpton bitch about how all white people are racist if he loses? ;)

ghetto culture maybe but that shouldn't be an interchangeable term with black culture. That's where the racism comes in.

I grew up in the ghetto as a white guy. I got the same kind of treatment when I was in school. I got fucked with daily for being a good student by other poor white kids. The schools I went to in the poor neighborhoods were dramatically different in quality from the schools in better off neighborhoods too. I've gone to both, so I know. Then there are the parents of poor kids (not just black kids, not just Mexican kids, but white kids as well) who have their own problems of a wide variety and pass these problems down.

Yes it's a cycle that needs to be broken but you can't blame it on blacks and say it's 'black culture'. How can you say that isn't racist?

The innocent life of people convicted of a murder they didn't commit.

That's why it should be almost impossible to convict them, i.e. if there's overwhelming, irrefutable evidence.

That's why it should be almost impossible to convict them, i.e. if there's overwhelming, irrefutable evidence.
Raise the standard of evidence too high and murderers will walk free.
I never said that. But we can at least minimize the number of innocents who get wrongly convicted.

By, say, having more than one appeal maybe?

Because innocent people never get conviceted, right?:rolleyes:

I never said that. But we can at least minimize the number of innocents who get wrongly convicted.

Thats another reason Im rooting for Obama in all honosty. Sharpton would be out of a job of America elected a black president.

And thats another reason you all should vote for him. To you really want to listen to Jessy Jackson and Sharpton bitch about how all white people are racist if he loses? ;)

That's the thing. I've noticed that Sharpton and Jackson ave been conspicuously quiet during all this. Now, maybe I've not b een paying close enough attention, but I have a feeling the Obama campaign asked them NOT to get involved, especially if they were planning to support him. Those guys would only hurt Obama's cred, not help it because he has more honor and credibility in his left pinky toe than the other two combined.

ghetto culture maybe but that shouldn't be an interchangeable term with black culture. That's where the racism comes in.

I grew up in the ghetto as a white guy. I got the same kind of treatment when I was in school. I got fucked with daily for being a good student by other poor white kids. The schools I went to in the poor neighborhoods were dramatically different in quality from the schools in better off neighborhoods too. I've gone to both, so I know. Then there are the parents of poor kids (not just black kids, not just Mexican kids, but white kids as well) who have their own problems of a wide variety and pass these problems down.

Yes it's a cycle that needs to be broken but you can't blame it on blacks and say it's 'black culture'. How can you say that isn't racist?

Because it could have happened to ANY race. All of this business got started when freed slaves started off with a handicap because slaves tended to be poorly educated and had economic disadvantages. All of that sort of evolved over the years to what we have now.

The problem is, while the white culture may have set this in motion, it's no longer in a position to fix it. If the situation is going to get fixed it has to happen from the inside. There are too many idiots like Jackson and Sharpton out there coddling their followers and telling them none of this is their falut and there's nothing they can do. That's a fat load of crap because blame is irrelevant at this point, but people need to be empowered not discouraged. People in these areas need to start believing that they CAN rise above these origins and truly succeed.

Guys like Colin Powell are perfect examples, but because they're Republicans they're often scorned as 'oreos' or race traitors rather than being seen as role models for what can be accomplished by someone who has the desire. Maybe on some level the victim mentality is addictive and those who are deep in it don't WANT to be helped out of it.

I never said that. But we can at least minimize the number of innocents who get wrongly convicted.

Ideally, we already do that. What would you do to make it better that isn't being done already?

Land of the free... haha!

Ha ha!

That's the thing. I've noticed that Sharpton and Jackson ave been conspicuously quiet during all this. Now, maybe I've not b een paying close enough attention, but I have a feeling the Obama campaign asked them NOT to get involved, especially if they were planning to support him. Those guys would only hurt Obama's cred, not help it because he has more honor and credibility in his left pinky toe than the other two combined.



Because it could have happened to ANY race. All of this business got started when freed slaves started off with a handicap because slaves tended to be poorly educated and had economic disadvantages. All of that sort of evolved over the years to what we have now.

The problem is, while the white culture may have set this in motion, it's no longer in a position to fix it. If the situation is going to get fixed it has to happen from the inside. There are too many idiots like Jackson and Sharpton out there coddling their followers and telling them none of this is their falut and there's nothing they can do. That's a fat load of crap because blame is irrelevant at this point, but people need to be empowered not discouraged. People in these areas need to start believing that they CAN rise above these origins and truly succeed.

Guys like Colin Powell are perfect examples, but because they're Republicans they're often scorned as 'oreos' or race traitors rather than being seen as role models for what can be accomplished by someone who has the desire. Maybe on some level the victim mentality is addictive and those who are deep in it don't WANT to be helped out of it.

You didn't get what I just said. This isn't limited to the black community. This is something that happens to all kids in poor communities. It's NOT 'black culture' but I can agree that it's 'ghetto culture'. Blacks are not the only ones who live in the ghetto.

We can't silence idiots like Sharpton but you also can't blame them for all of the problems of the ghetto culture today.

Well, the word ghetto means a living space of a poor, minority group. So technically, a ghetto is made of minorities.

We have white ghettos, but they aren't called ghettos, they're called trailer parks.

I couldn't agree with Neo Bretonnia more.

Nobody is saying that black people are born to be the criminal class or anything like that. It's obvious that because of slavery and their social status after becoming free, Blacks were orginally disadvantaged in this country. But the point is that now, while it used to be the white man keeping blacks down (and keeping blacks down the White man did), it's blacks themselves with a victim "don't want to work for whitey" mentality that is putting glass ceiling over their heads.

Look at it this way...when black people currently complain about how society is against them, they don't want to work for whitey, education is not important, ect ect....has that actually done anything to make themselves live better? Has that actually advanced them in any way? No. Perhaps try the opposite then? What if we woke up tomorrow and black people decided to value education, intact family, sucess and respect for society (even if it is "white")....do you have any idea how sucessful things would get for them? Surely they'd be in a much better position than they are now.

Also...I'd have to argue something that I feel strongly influences this. Every culture/race/people/ethnicity/religious group that came to America did it to find a better life and live the American dream...so they came here to try to better their lives and were thus constantly trying to integrate to maximize their potential in America, this new country.

Blacks are the only exception because they were brought here as slaves, so their whole outlook on being in America and what American stands for to them is totally different from I'd say, every other immigrant and descendent from immigrants in this country. (there are exceptions of course..like maybe Indians, but in general this theory works)

So then, for instance in South Florida....we have alot of black islanders who come here, who's attitude couldn't be more different than Black Americans....and because of that...they often times will not get along.

For instance...black islanders come here and try to integrate, take (often times low paying and low level) jobs and work for Whites and Latinos because they know how fortunate they are to have these opportunities for prosperity and a better life for their families...opportunities that were not offered to them in the countries they come from.

In this sense...it's not a racial one but a cultural one....and that difference is between American blacks, culturally...and Island blacks, coming here to forge a better life for them and their families.

Another thing that really irked me was the whole fiasco with Paris Hilton in jail. That cost a shitload of money to keep her their for 23 days, to pay for the trial, to pay for the extra security. And I say, how fucking dare the government waste so many tax dollars to put on a media whoreshow? It's not just celebs, it's an array of non-violent offenders who are no threat to society, who are simply just put in jail because why? Because we can't think of anything else to do with them.

You give someone 30 days in jail for a misdemeanor, and all you do is disrupt their lives (and disrupting the economy as a whole when people are deprived of their jobs) and leave them to go back to their normal lifestyle as soon as they get out.

And look at how many tax fruad convicts we have in federal prison. Do they need to be in prison? Fuck no, seize their estate, their account, take the tax revenue, take a little more for breaking the law, and be done with it. It's a cruel irony that people who refuse to pay taxes are punished by being put in jail and - guess what? - wasting the taxes of those who did pay!

The best thing we can do is reserve prisons 100% exclusively for violent offenders. Because prisons are financially always going to be unsuccessful. Start implementing more fines and more community service, and less jail sentences, and you'll see the economy as a whole improve.

Well, the word ghetto means a living space of a poor, minority group. So technically, a ghetto is made of minorities.

We have white ghettos, but they aren't called ghettos, they're called trailer parks.

and in the ghetto that I lived, I was one of the few white guys so yes, it was a ghetto.

You didn't get what I just said. This isn't limited to the black community. This is something that happens to all kids in poor communities. It's NOT 'black culture' but I can agree that it's 'ghetto culture'. Blacks are not the only ones who live in the ghetto.

We can't silence idiots like Sharpton but you also can't blame them for all of the problems of the ghetto culture today.

Well the thing is, in the communities in question the demographic IS predominantly black. Now, a notable exception would be East L.A., where a large population of Mexcian immigrants and their descendants are in the same position, but by and large it's because they integrated with the wrong group. For the most part immigrants, whether they be from Mexico or anywhere else, work their butts off to take their future into their own hands.

Sure, in these areas there are people of other races too, but the overwhelming majority is the one that sets the tone.


So then, for instance in South Florida....we have alot of black islanders who come here, who's attitude couldn't be more different than Black Americans....and because of that...they often times will not get along.

For instance...black islanders come here and try to integrate, take (often times low paying and low level) jobs and work for Whites and Latinos because they know how fortunate they are to have these opportunities for prosperity and a better life for their families...opportunities that were not offered to them in the countries they come from.

In this sense...it's not a racial one but a cultural one....and that difference is between American blacks, culturally...and Island blacks, coming here to forge a better life for them and their families.

100% agreed, and it's not only islanders. I used to work at a car dealer with a guy from the Ivory Coast in Africa and ha had a real disdain for what he called 'American Blacks' because he viewed them as lazy and foolish. His view was apparently not uncommon among African immigrants (as opposed to the descendants of slaves) for exactly the same reason that ANY (voluntarily) immigrant population tends to be productive and positive.

It's not a race thing. It's a culture thing, but that culture does tend to run along generally racial lines for obvious historic and social reasons as we've been discussing.

Well the thing is, in the communities in question the demographic IS predominantly black.

Because?

and in the ghetto that I lived, I was one of the few white guys so yes, it was a ghetto.

Apparently you and those white guys are all the product of black culture.

Apparently you and those white guys are all the product of black culture.

*chuckles*

apparently.

I blame white spokesmen like TAI and NB for perpetuating the black culture stereotype - it reinforces it you see.

and opportunistic 'leaders' perpetuate it for their own benefit.

And the pathetic, mindless Black sheep just follow along.

Because of what we've been saying, historical injustices set the situation up, and opportunistic 'leaders' perpetuate it for their own benefit.


so racial inequality doesn't come into play anymore? social class doesn't come into play? It's all Al Sharptons fault and society as a whole has no way of helping out at this point?

And the pathetic, mindless Black sheep just follow along.


the scientific term is 'hive mind'.

And the pathetic, mindless Black sheep just follow along.
Putting words into his mouth is fun...why not actually agree or not agree (and this dispell if you disagree) with what he said about said "leaders"...

Because?

Because of what we've been saying, historical injustices set the situation up, and opportunistic 'leaders' perpetuate it for their own benefit.

*chuckles*

apparently.

I blame white spokesmen like TAI and NB for perpetuating the black culture stereotype - it reinforces it you see.
So it's one's fault if one speaks about issues with the culture that affects a far too large ammount of the black community?

Should it be off limits? Should it be taboo?

Drug laws have gotten WAY out of hand.


Overall: STOP SENDING DRUGGIES TO JAIL!! If anything, that just exacerbates the problem. Mandatory rehab for users of drugs who get caught. Dealers should be heavily fined, only jailed if they continue to deal after being caught several times.

*chuckles*

apparently.

I blame white spokesmen like TAI and NB for perpetuating the black culture stereotype - it reinforces it you see.

So does this mean you're out of reasonable arguments and it's time to start taking shots?

Oh and by the way... I'm not white.

And the pathetic, mindless Black sheep just follow along.

Yeah right that's just what I said.

so racial inequality doesn't come into play anymore? social class doesn't come into play? It's all Al Sharptons fault and society as a whole has no way of helping out at this point?

What can society do at this point? Education is already freely available to everybody and money is being duped into the schools especially in the low income areas to try and improve their quality but the fact is you have a whole entertainment industry being driven by this cultural identity where kids refuse to go to school and even if you can get them into the classrooms they refuse to learn.

Where do you think the derogative term 'oreo' comes from? It wasn't society at large that invented it.

Seriously. What do you want society to do? Send armed truant officers to physically oversee kids amd MAKE them go to clase and MAKE them do their homework? yeah that'd be a real boon to race relations. Want to start throwing even more money into these areas? That's not exactly going to encourage a mentality of self-empowerment and self-reliance.

What's your solution?

So it's one's fault if one speaks about issues with the culture that affects a far too large ammount of the black community?

Should it be off limits? Should it be taboo?

Apparently it's considered taboo if you're white, or perceived as white, or are an oreo.

That kind of mentality isn't helping. It stymies open conversation and discussion, and I don't see how that can possibly help matters.

So it's one's fault if one speaks about issues with the culture that affects a far too large ammount of the black community?
Who do you suggest take responsibility for the things you say if not you yourself?
Apparently it's considered taboo if you're white, or perceived as white, or are an oreo.

That kind of mentality isn't helping. It stymies open conversation and discussion, and I don't see how that can possibly help matters.

I don't see how matters are helped by blaming black culture for something that affects people regardless of race.

Have you actually been reading this thread? Because the only possible answer I can make as a rebuttal to what you just said would be to merely repeat myself. If that's what you see in my posts, then you're not quite getting my point.

Sorry, I meant to aim that more at TAI. Bleh, needs more sleep.

Did Miss Teen South Carolina type up the title for this thread?


Crime in the capitalist system is caused by poverty and the deterioration of the nuclear family. Instead of repealing laws and softening punishments, what ought to be done is attempting to alleviate the situations that cause laws to be broken.

What I have a problem with is blaming it on 'black culture' when it has nothing to do with a persons skin color. I also have a problem with the implication that somehow that racism doesn't come into play these days. As I said earlier, I grew up in Los Angeles for much of my life and have seen firsthand, the contrast of what schools are like in poor and rich neighborhoods.

Schools in poor areas are not adequate. There has been really good advances in education that hasn't been brought to poor public schools because the funding is too low or school boards fight it because restructuring means they lose their jobs.

Parents of these kids need to be engaged - PSA's - after school activities

Repealing drug laws will dramatically reduce gang violence and incarcerations as well.


What are YOUR suggestions beyond "they need to figure it out themselves"?

I don't see how matters are helped by blaming black culture for something that affects people regardless of race.

Have you actually been reading this thread? Because the only possible answer I can make as a rebuttal to what you just said would be to merely repeat myself. If that's what you see in my posts, then you're not quite getting my point.

Did Miss Teen South Carolina type up the title for this thread?


Crime in the capitalist system is caused by poverty and the deterioration of the nuclear family. Instead of repealing laws and softening punishments, what ought to be done is attempting to alleviate the situations that cause laws to be broken.

Please, offer up your suggestions on what can be done then.

Sorry, I meant to aim that more at TAI. Bleh, needs more sleep.

No problem. At least it's Friday! :p

(I hope you don't have to work on weekends ;) )

What I have a problem with is blaming it on 'black culture' when it has nothing to do with a persons skin color. I also have a problem with the implication that somehow that racism doesn't come into play these days. As I said earlier, I grew up in Los Angeles for much of my life and have seen firsthand, the contrast of what schools are like in poor and rich neighborhoods.


ideally, it doesn't. in reality, those are the lines along which the cultures tend to divide in th evast majority of cases. It sucks, but we're not going to fix it by pretending it isn't so. Racism goes both ways, and that widens the rift.

And yes, racism absolutely comes into play, but it's not flowing in only one direction and things have come a long way.


Schools in poor areas are not adequate. There has been really good advances in education that hasn't been brought to poor public schools because the funding is too low or school boards fight it because restructuring means they lose their jobs.


For the former problem, tax revenues that support the schools are naturally low in areas where incomes are low. To the latter, that's a problem of corruption, not racism or cultural difference.


Parents of these kids need to be engaged - PSA's - after school activities


They absolutely need to be, but more often than not they either don't care or they're single parent homes where that parent has to work to make ends meet and simply can't do it.


Repealing drug laws will dramatically reduce gang violence and incarcerations as well.

Agreed.

ideally, it doesn't. in reality, those are the lines along which the cultures tend to divide in th evast majority of cases. It sucks, but we're not going to fix it by pretending it isn't so. Racism goes both ways, and that widens the rift.

And yes, racism absolutely comes into play, but it's not flowing in only one direction and things have come a long way.

I don't pretend that there are racial divides and never said that racism doesn't go the other way. It does serve my point though that society as a whole does have more to do in this area and can't just be left up to the ghetto community to figure it out themselves which is what you seem to keep implying.


For the former problem, tax revenues that support the schools are naturally low in areas where incomes are low. To the latter, that's a problem of corruption, not racism or cultural difference.

And funding schools according to local tax revenues is the wrong way to go about it. If each kid in the US is to get an equal chance at a proper education, then they should be funded equally.


They absolutely need to be, but more often than not they either don't care or they're single parent homes where that parent has to work to make ends meet and simply can't do it.

We can't let that be an excuse not to try though. Again, we're all in this together. We haven't done everything we can do as a society to help the less fortunate. Don't take that as meaning that we should just throw money at them

We need to encourage prominent minority leaders with positive messages to be more vocal and we need to give them a platform to be heard on.

If we didn't have the drug laws then we wouldn't have those 463,000 in jail eating up such a large chunk of our taxes. I don't see how 463,000 prisoners of drug laws (nearly a quarter of all prisoners) is something to scoff at.

Really? Because I have seen many statistics showing an absurd number of prisoners in for drug crimes.

Want to show me what your basing this off of that isnt a personal story?

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/prisons.htm

Only 20% of prisoners are convicted of drug-related charges, and that's not even considering that some are convicted of multiple charges where drugs are only one. That number has dropped over the last ten years, as well.

Again, blaming the 'War on Drugs' for all our problems is wrong - not just because drug offenses are a small piece of the pie, but because victimless drug crimes like simple possession account for almost none of that 20%. In California (the example I gave) there needs to be intent to sell to put you in the felony category (making 1 year or more in prison possible). Most people convicted of drug crimes have very large amounts of contraband in their possession. Our drug laws are far more sane than they're rumored to be on the internet.

Work vs. Prison:

Just in case you ever get these two environments mixed up, this should make things a little bit clearer.

@ PRISON
You spend the majority of your time in a 10X10 cell.
@ WORK
You spend the majority of your time in a 6X6 cubicle /office.


@ PRISON
You get three meals a day fully paid for.
@ WORK
You get a break for one meal and you have to pay for it.


@ PRISON
You get FREE medical & dental work done
@ WORK
You pay for medical insurance that may or may NOT cover the work you need done


@ PRISON
You get time off for good behavior.
@ WORK
You get more work for good behavior.


@ PRISON
The guard locks and unlocks all the doors for you.
@ WORK
You must often carry a security card and open all the doors for yourself.


@ PRISON
You can watch TV and play games.
@ WORK
You could get fired for watching TV and playing games.


@ PRISON
You get your own toilet.
@ WORK
You have to share the toilet with some people who pee on the seat.


@ PRISON
They allow your family and friends to visit.
@ WORK
You aren't even supposed to speak to your family.


@ PRISON
All expenses are paid by the taxpayers with no work required.
@ WORK
You get to pay all your expenses to go to work, and they deduct taxes from your salary to pay for prisoners.

@ PRISON
You spend most of your life inside bars wanting to get out.
@ WORK
You spend most of your time wanting to get out and go inside bars.

@ PRISON
You must deal with sadistic wardens.
@ WORK
They are called managers.

THERE IS SOMETHING SERIOUSLY WRONG WITH THIS PICTURE!

Moar!:p "they are called managers" ouch, nice one.

If we didn't have the drug laws then we wouldn't have those 50,000 in jail eating up such a large chunk of our taxes. I don't see how 50,000 prisoners of drug laws (nearly a quarter of all prisoners) is something to scoff at.

Careful though, because being too lenient may result in those 50,000 just being replaced by another 50,000 drug addicts who did some crazy shit while intoxicated... You have to at least make sure that the government heavily regulates it as well I think.

agreed



agreed

agreed

agreed

Careful though, because being too lenient may result in those 50,000 just being replaced by another 50,000 drug addicts who did some crazy shit while intoxicated... You have to at least make sure that the government heavily regulates it as well I think.

They should be treated like alcohol. I'm not saying there shouldn't be DUI laws and such.

Work vs. Prison:

Just in case you ever get these two environments mixed up, this should make things a little bit clearer.

@ PRISON
You spend the majority of your time in a 10X10 cell.
@ WORK
You spend the majority of your time in a 6X6 cubicle /office.


@ PRISON
You get three meals a day fully paid for.
@ WORK
You get a break for one meal and you have to pay for it.


@ PRISON
You get FREE medical & dental work done
@ WORK
You pay for medical insurance that may or may NOT cover the work you need done


@ PRISON
You get time off for good behavior.
@ WORK
You get more work for good behavior.


@ PRISON
The guard locks and unlocks all the doors for you.
@ WORK
You must often carry a security card and open all the doors for yourself.


@ PRISON
You can watch TV and play games.
@ WORK
You could get fired for watching TV and playing games.


@ PRISON
You get your own toilet.
@ WORK
You have to share the toilet with some people who pee on the seat.


@ PRISON
They allow your family and friends to visit.
@ WORK
You aren't even supposed to speak to your family.


@ PRISON
All expenses are paid by the taxpayers with no work required.
@ WORK
You get to pay all your expenses to go to work, and they deduct taxes from your salary to pay for prisoners.

@ PRISON
You spend most of your life inside bars wanting to get out.
@ WORK
You spend most of your time wanting to get out and go inside bars.

@ PRISON
You must deal with sadistic wardens.
@ WORK
They are called managers.

THERE IS SOMETHING SERIOUSLY WRONG WITH THIS PICTURE!

Raise the standard of evidence too high and murderers will walk free.

In capital cases, there are two phases: the guilt phase (is the guy guilty?) and the sentencing phase (is death appropriate?) This was a change made after the moratorium. You could, in theory, raise the standard for the sentencing phase (require DNA, multiple eyewitnesses, whatever) without touching the guilt phase. Same number of convictions, with less margin for error in death sentences.

By, say, having more than one appeal maybe?

They aren't limited to one.

agreed



agreed


agreed

They should be treated like alcohol. I'm not saying there shouldn't be DUI laws and such.

But some drugs can fuck your life up way more then alcohol could, well at least a lot more quickly. They are different, and should be treated differently as such.

*snip agreement*
Is there an echo in here?
In capital cases, there are two phases: the guilt phase (is the guy guilty?) and the sentencing phase (is death appropriate?) This was a change made after the moratorium. You could, in theory, raise the standard for the sentencing phase (require DNA, multiple eyewitnesses, whatever) without touching the guilt phase. Same number of convictions, with less margin for error in death sentences.
In the hypothetical I was responding to executions would be mandatory for those found guilty of murder. Though this idea intrigues me.



They aren't limited to one.
Again, responding to hypothetical.

We need to encourage prominent minority leaders with positive messages to be more vocal and we need to give them a platform to be heard on.

Oh we do? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Cosby#The_Pound_Cake_speech_and_other_comments_on_moral_values)

Did you totally miss when that (http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Pound_Cake_speech) happened?

Yet another reason we should legalize the possession, sale, and consumption of marijuana. :D

As has been pointed out several times, only 20% of prisoners are there on drug charges, and not necessarily just drug charges.

Yet another reason we should legalize the possession, sale, and consumption of marijuana. :D

As has been pointed out several times, only 20% of prisoners are there on drug charges, and not necessarily just drug charges.
Sorry I didn't read the whole thread? :confused:

And? It would still alleviate some of the pressure our prison system is on. Even if it is not the full 450,000+ prisoners that are in for drug charges, there's no arguing that it would help. It would also help police officers; instead of wasting their time on minor drug charges (and going through the whole court procedure with it--wasting even more tax dollars), they could focus on more important things. It would relieve the demand for police officers.

In addition, it has been argued that marijuana is a "gateway drug." If marijuana was legal and regulated, people could buy it from private companies as opposed to drug dealers. It's arguable that this, in turn, would then lessen peoples' exposure to "worse" drugs such as LSD, cocaine, and heroin. One could conclude that, therefore, fewer people would be put behind bars for other types of drugs, as well.

Again, responding to hypothetical.

Ah, my mistake. Sorry about that.

Yeah right that's just what I said.

There's no other way to argue at all sensibly that "opportunistic leaders" are responsible for the problem.

It's just a more politically correct way to scapegoat Blacks for the deprivation a racist society continues to inflict upon them.

Racism goes both ways,

Indeed. So does gravity.

But some drugs can fuck your life up way more then alcohol could, well at least a lot more quickly. They are different, and should be treated differently as such.


In what ways?

Prohibition causes way more harm to society as a whole (taxes for approximately 500,000 prisoners who aren't even getting rehabilitation and are likely to end back up in prison, funding gangs, gang violence for drug peddling territory and deals gone bad and whatnot...) than does allowing people the freedom to fuck up their own lives by choice on an individual basis.

Without the war on drugs we could have more honest open discussion about drugs and their effects too. Addicts to now illegal drugs wouldn't me made to feel like criminals who would more likely open up easier and could be treated for their disease of addiction.

It is a fact that thousands of inner-city youths drop out of school to make enormous profits by selling drugs. The incentive to drop out of school would end if drugs were legalized.

In spite of what you may believe, keeping drugs illegal does not keep drugs away from children! Drugs are easily obtainable in almost every high school in America. Legalizing drugs would put schoolyard drug dealers out of business! There would be less drugs in our schools if drugs were legalized. Drugs would still be illegal for minors!

Since drugs are sold anyway, wouldn’t you rather have them heavily taxed so it would reduce your tax burden? You are giving criminals a free ride and it’s coming out of your own pocket. Working people pay 100% of all taxes for the drug dealers! Why do you want to pay taxes for drug dealers?

Work vs. Prison:

Just in case you ever get these two environments mixed up, this should make things a little bit clearer.

<snip>

@Prison
You spend up to 23 hours locked in the same 10x10 cell
@Work
You get to go home after 8 hours at which point your time is your own, you get to go out at lunchtime

@Prison
You are there untill they say you can be releasted
@Work
You can quite at any time

@Prison
You go to bed a light;s out, you get up when the Warden's wake you up
@Work
You go to bed when you want depending on exhaustion, you get up at the time you feel is necessary to get you to where you need ot be that day

@Prison
You use communal wash facilities when they say you can
@Work
You shower in the morning/evening dependant on your preference, alone in the privacy of your own home

@Prison
You share a cell with who they tell you to
@Work
You choose your roommates

@Prison
You do the, usuallly manual, job they tell you to, depending on what the prison authorities deem you are "ready" for
@Work
You apply for the jobs you choose, in the career you choose, you have, ultimately the choice over whether you accept the job or not


Do not underestimate the institutialisng effect prison can have, or the effect of denying someone's freedom. And these particular examples do not touch on the violence, bullying and even rape that goes on withing prisons, effects that are unintended but nonetheless realities of prison life.

Yes I know that for a lot of people economic pressures will mean that people have to take the jobs available etc... but ulitmately, if they get offered a better one, they can still change, they do have a choice in which jobs they apply for. And even if choice is mostly an illusion, even the illusion of control has an important psychological impact.

In spite of what you may believe, keeping drugs illegal does not keep drugs away from children! Drugs are easily obtainable in almost every high school in America. Legalizing drugs would put schoolyard drug dealers out of business! There would be less drugs in our schools if drugs were legalized. Drugs would still be illegal for minors!


Maybe in schools, but minors still seem to have no problem obtaining legal drugs like alcohol and tobacco in large quantities.

it wasn't so easy for me to get alcohol as it was to get illegal drugs.

Or make the main goal of prison rehabilitation, you know, something we used to do that WORKED, rather than this eye for an eye crap.

Something tells me that the public view of rehabilitation is that it doesn't work.

Plenty of studies say it doesn't work (and some do). But the public was not willing to take the chance - they probably feel (as most studies show) that aging out a prisoner radically reduces the chances of re-offense.

And, while they're steaming in prison, they aren't able to harm anyone except other prisoners.

It's not eye for an eye. It's "let's warehouse them until they rot".

Let's make it 100!
/McCain

Something tells me that the public view of rehabilitation is that it doesn't work.

Plenty of studies say it doesn't work (and some do). But the public was not willing to take the chance - they probably feel (as most studies show) that aging out a prisoner radically reduces the chances of re-offense.


Actually most studies since the 80s have indicated that, if it follows a few basic principles (is cognitive-behavioural in nature, is well defined (follows a manual not clinical opionion), is relevant to their particular crime/circumstances, and targeted at high/medium risk prisoners) then actually, they do work. The last study to say resoundly they don't work was in 1974 and the author retraced the statement a couple of years later.

Yes the public perception is still that it doesn't work, but I'm afraid that based on a large number of research studies, despite some conflicting findings, the majority of evidence indicates that's wrong.
http://www.wsipp.wa.gov/rptfiles/04-07-3901.pdf
http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pubsintro1.html

As has been pointed out several times, only 20% of prisoners are there on drug charges, and not necessarily just drug charges.

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance/tables/corrtyptab.htm


I don't feel like doing maths but if the 2004 number equals 20% then releasing a good number of those prisoners would certainly alleviate the prison system. Not to mention some of those "public order" crimes which sound like bullshit to me. Perhaps then we'd have more room for the violent offenders who most certainly deserve being in there.

I also really enjoyed seeing that spike in drug incarcerations, truly we do have mixed up priorities...

So where is the Asian minority in that fancy statistics graph of yours? Oh yes, below the white incarceration rate. But hey, it would somewhat defeat the polemic purpose of the graph if whites weren't shown to be at the very bottom right?

It is a fact that thousands of inner-city youths drop out of school to make enormous profits by selling drugs. The incentive to drop out of school would end if drugs were legalized.I'm pretty sure this is not a fact. In fact, I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that the average pusher-on-the-street makes something like $3/hr average.

So where is the Asian minority in that fancy statistics graph of yours? Oh yes, below the white incarceration rate. But hey, it would somewhat defeat the polemic purpose of the graph if whites weren't shown to be at the very bottom right?

In many jurisdictions Asians are honorary white people, for purposes of say, college financial aid.

Just 100? meh. must be slacking! lock up more criminals!!!!

Ok, time for simple math.

1 out of 100 = 1%.
99% of Americans are not in jail. Therefore "Americans are all criminals. Why else would they all be in jail" is an extraordinarily inaccurate remark to make.

Not to mention that 27% of that 1% aren't even Americans, as someone noted earlier. Just friendly visitors from south of the border. :p

it says the US is a racist shithole.

Coming from one of the more bigoted people on NSG, that's rather amusing.

THat is much much more than in Russia.
This prove Americans are all criminals. Why else would they all be in jail?

Ok, time for simple math.

1 out of 100 = 1%.
99% of Americans are not in jail. Therefore "Americans are all criminals. Why else would they all be in jail" is an extraordinarily inaccurate remark to make.

Five words:

End. The. Fucking. Drug. War.You may want to learn more than five words.
:confused:

Be fair TPC, he has, there were 7 in the post you responded to.
:p

@Prison
@Work


You do realize That JuNii's post was a joke, right?

I don't pretend that there are racial divides and never said that racism doesn't go the other way. It does serve my point though that society as a whole does have more to do in this area and can't just be left up to the ghetto community to figure it out themselves which is what you seem to keep implying.
And funding schools according to local tax revenues is the wrong way to go about it. If each kid in the US is to get an equal chance at a proper education, then they should be funded equally.
We can't let that be an excuse not to try though. Again, we're all in this together. We haven't done everything we can do as a society to help the less fortunate. Don't take that as meaning that we should just throw money at them
We need to encourage prominent minority leaders with positive messages to be more vocal and we need to give them a platform to be heard on.

But here's the thing... You're talking about how society needs to do more but I have 2 questions for you:

1)What do you want society to do next? (And simply throwing more money at the problem has done nothing so far)
2)Just how much responsibility DO the members of these communities have to empower and elevate themselves?

You do realize That JuNii's post was a joke, right?

I was a bit drunk last night... I think my irony meter was broken (*note to self, do not post when drunk*).

Although I have actually heard similar arguments made in all seriousness. That prison is cushy, that it's not a punishment, that people have it better in prison than out in the real world.

Please, offer up your suggestions on what can be done then.

All that can be done is to restimulate the economy and repair society, two things that I believe politicians are working on already.

One thing that doesn't make sense is to try and reduce crime by taking crimes that exist and not making them crimes anymore. Crimes are crimes because they're bad for society, and I think we can agree that dependency on heroin, cocaine, etc. is bad for society.

Drugs are illegal because they create addicts. Addicts create slums(I'm fully aware there are other things that create slums), and slums create crime, not to mention decrease property value.

(now that I think about it, drugs are probably illegal for shady political reasons as well)

Drug enforcement is a losing battle, but to quit fighting it just so that you won't lose doesn't give you a chance to win either.

Although I have actually heard similar arguments made in all seriousness. That prison is cushy, that it's not a punishment, that people have it better in prison than out in the real world.
I also heard that argument.

cable television, free healthcare, free job training, free room and board.

want some privacy? Act up and get thrown into solitary.

of course, they don't talk about the shit you put up in prision...

Well, It's a good place to put them. That way they can't enlist and shoot civilised peoples.

In what ways?

Prohibition causes way more harm to society as a whole (taxes for approximately 500,000 prisoners who aren't even getting rehabilitation and are likely to end back up in prison, funding gangs, gang violence for drug peddling territory and deals gone bad and whatnot...) than does allowing people the freedom to fuck up their own lives by choice on an individual basis.

Without the war on drugs we could have more honest open discussion about drugs and their effects too. Addicts to now illegal drugs wouldn't me made to feel like criminals who would more likely open up easier and could be treated for their disease of addiction.


I am not talking about a war on drugs, I am opposed to that. I'm talking about regulation, you shouldn't go from one extreme to the other.


It is a fact that thousands of inner-city youths drop out of school to make enormous profits by selling drugs. The incentive to drop out of school would end if drugs were legalized.


Again, not against drug legalisation.


In spite of what you may believe, keeping drugs illegal does not keep drugs away from children! Drugs are easily obtainable in almost every high school in America. Legalizing drugs would put schoolyard drug dealers out of business! There would be less drugs in our schools if drugs were legalized. Drugs would still be illegal for minors!


I'm not sure who you think I am. I even used to take drugs myself! You have totally gotten the wrong idea about me.


Since drugs are sold anyway, wouldn’t you rather have them heavily taxed so it would reduce your tax burden?

Yes but again, if you tax them too heavily then gangs will re-appear selling non taxed drugs.

That wasn't really so much to you as it was just a rant on drug prohibition. As i said earlier I don't believe there shouldn't be restrictions such as DUI and age restrictions.

I think that really hard drugs should only be allowed to be taken at a clinic (if our nation can afford a system like this). I also forget how strict the US is on alcohol though, over here it is way more lenient so you should perhaps understand that when I mention alcohol I am talking about a UK perspective.

All that can be done is to restimulate the economy and repair society, two things that I believe politicians are working on already.

One thing that doesn't make sense is to try and reduce crime by taking crimes that exist and not making them crimes anymore. Crimes are crimes because they're bad for society, and I think we can agree that dependency on heroin, cocaine, etc. is bad for society.

Drugs are illegal because they create addicts. Addicts create slums(I'm fully aware there are other things that create slums), and slums create crime, not to mention decrease property value.

(now that I think about it, drugs are probably illegal for shady political reasons as well)

Drug enforcement is a losing battle, but to quit fighting it just so that you won't lose doesn't give you a chance to win either.


So do you think that alcohol should be banned again? why or why not?

I am not talking about a war on drugs, I am opposed to that. I'm talking about regulation, you shouldn't go from one extreme to the other.



Again, not against drug legalisation.



I'm not sure who you think I am. I even used to take drugs myself! You have totally gotten the wrong idea about me.



Yes but again, if you tax them too heavily then gangs will re-appear selling non taxed drugs.


That wasn't really so much to you as it was just a rant on drug prohibition. As i said earlier I don't believe there shouldn't be restrictions such as DUI and age restrictions.

But here's the thing... You're talking about how society needs to do more but I have 2 questions for you:

1)What do you want society to do next? (And simply throwing more money at the problem has done nothing so far)
2)Just how much responsibility DO the members of these communities have to empower and elevate themselves?


1) I just gave you a list of what I thought the problems were and just a few of the many things that could be done. I don't have the final solution but I don't think society should say "fuck it, we did all we can" because we havent done all we can. we'll just have to agree to disagree here as I can see that you have given up hope on the poor communities and seem to think them of a hive mind of lazy criminals.

2) Correct me if I'm wrong - I'm guessing that you wont accept any answer other than full and complete responsibility but I'm not sure you will accept how unlikely that is to happen.