NationStates Jolt Archive


Americans hate change, but do it all the time, especially religion

Sel Appa
26-02-2008, 02:50
Americans change religions at an astounding rate. And while you'd think some religions would drop in membership greatly, they also gain right back.

Link (http://news.yahoo.com/s/time/20080225/us_time/americasunfaithfulfaithful)

A major new survey presents perhaps the most detailed picture we've yet had of which religious groups Americans belong to. And its big message is: blink and they'll change. For the first time, a large-scale study has quantified what many experts suspect: there is a constant membership turnover among most American faiths. America's religious culture, which is best known for its high participation rates, may now be equally famous (or infamous) for what the new report dubs "churn."

The report, released today by the Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life, is the first selection of data from a 35,000- person poll called the U.S. Religious Landscape Survey. Says Pew Forum director Luis Lugo, Americans "not only change jobs, change where they live, and change spouses, but they change religions too. We totally knew it was happening, but this survey enabled us to document it clearly."

According to Pew, 28% of American adults have left the faith of their childhood for another one. And that does not even include those who switched from one Protestant denomination to another; if it did, the number would jump to 44%. Says Greg Smith, one of the main researchers for the "Landscape" data, churn applies across the board. "There's no group that is simply winning or simply losing," he says. "Nothing is static. Every group is simultaneously winning and losing."

For some groups, their relatively steady number of adherents over the years hides a remarkable amount of coming and going. Simply counting Catholics since 1972, for example, you would get the impression that its population had remained fairly static - at about 25% of adult Americans (the current number is 23.9%). But the Pew report shows that of all those raised Catholic, a third have left the church. (That means that roughly one out of every 10 people in America is a former Catholic, and that ex-Catholics are almost as numerous as the America's second biggest religious group, Southern Baptists.) But Catholicism has made up for the losses by adding converts (2.6% of the population) and, more significantly, enjoying an influx of new immigrants, mostly Hispanic.

An even more extreme example of what might be called "masked churn" is the relatively tiny Jehovah's Witnesses, with a turnover rate of about two-thirds. That means that two-thirds of the people who told Pew they were raised Jehovah's Witnesses no longer are - yet the group attracts roughly the same number of converts. Notes Lugo, "No wonder they have to keep on knocking on doors."

The single biggest "winner," in terms of number gained versus number lost, was not a religious group at all, but the "unaffiliated" category. About 16% of those polled defined their religious affiliation that way (including people who regarded themselves as religious, along with atheists and agnostics); only 7% had been brought up that way. That's an impressive gain, but Lugo points out that churn is everywhere: even the unaffiliated group lost 50% of its original membership to one church or another.

The report does not speculate on the implications of its data. But Lugo suggests, "What it says is that this marketplace is highly competitive and that no one can sit on their laurels, because another group out there will make [its tenets] available" for potential converts to try out. While this dynamic "may be partly responsible for the religious vitality of the American people," he says, "it also suggests that there is an institutional loosening of ties," with less individual commitment to a given faith or denomination.

Lugo would not speculate on whether such a buyer's market might cause some groups to dilute their particular beliefs in order to compete. There are signs of that in such surveys as one done by the Willow Creek megachurch outside Chicago, which has been extremely successful in attracting tens of thousands of religious "seekers." An internal survey recently indicated much of its membership was "stalled" in their spiritual growth, Lugo allowed that "it does raise the question of, once you attract these folks, how do you root them within your own particular tradition when people are changing so quickly."

The Pew report has other interesting findings; the highest rates for marrying within one's own faith, for example, are among Hindus (90%) and Mormons (83%).
Soyut
26-02-2008, 02:56
why do you assume that I hate change?

by the way, I was raised Methodist/Presbyterian. I went to a Catholic school for 13 years and a Baptist after school program for 6 years. I have immediate family who are: Easter Orthodox, Unitarian, Lutheran, Baptist, and Mormon.

I consider myself an expert on American religion and my opinion is:

1. Protestants usually change what they believe every few years or so. example: PCA allows female ministers, PCUSA dosen't. And the last time I went to church we were voting on whether or not to allow gay ministers, so in democratic style churches, like Presbyterian churches where the leaders are voted in every few years and not brainwashed and shut off from the real world like Catholic priests, official opinions are usually moderate and subject to change.

2. People tend to identify with whatever religion they want to, but then find ways to adopt whatever beliefs they want regardless of what their religion tells them to believe. example: both my roommates are catholic, one believes in abortion and the other believes that prayer has no power. Rather than realize that their tenets are incompatible with Catholic teachings, they just ignore what they don't want to hear and pick and choose what they do like to hear when it comes to the gospels, sermons or random religious propaganda.
Whatsnotreserved
26-02-2008, 03:05
The premise of this thread, that Americans hate change, fails. Thusly, this thread fails.
VietnamSounds
26-02-2008, 03:10
America is the only country that hasn't adopted the metric system, or tolerated the use of metal dollars. So I don't think Americans hate change is such a crazy generalization.
Soyut
26-02-2008, 03:29
America is the only country that hasn't adopted the metric system, or tolerated the use of metal dollars. So I don't think Americans hate change is such a crazy generalization.

Alright, if we're so afraid of change, then explain how we "do it all the time" ?
Fall of Empire
26-02-2008, 03:32
Americans change religions at an astounding rate. And while you'd think some religions would drop in membership greatly, they also gain right back.

Link (http://news.yahoo.com/s/time/20080225/us_time/americasunfaithfulfaithful)

Oh, but I know this already. My father was born presbeterian, raised Methodist, entered college a militant atheist, and now lives as a very devout Catholic. My mom isn't so diverse- Catholicism to Baptist to Jewish to Catholicism. And this is rather typical of the rest of the family.

And by the way, religions themselves change very frequently. The interpretation of religious texts can vary radically over the course of generations and can change completely over the course of centuries.
Whatsnotreserved
26-02-2008, 03:35
America is the only country that hasn't adopted the metric system, or tolerated the use of metal dollars. So I don't think Americans hate change is such a crazy generalization.

We use the Fahrenheit system, thusly we hate change? Oh and we still have paper money. Yep, were change haters.

Americans as a people aren't resistant to change in general, just in certain areas. Like any group of people, we have some traditions and habits that die hard, or we see no reason thats worth the effort to change. America changes and progresses, just slower than some people (including myself) would like.
But mostly, to say Americans hate change is a incredible generalization. You can't just lump 300 million people together. Americans, as a people, can be entirely dissimilar, just as any group of people.
Fall of Empire
26-02-2008, 03:37
America is the only country that hasn't adopted the metric system, or tolerated the use of metal dollars. So I don't think Americans hate change is such a crazy generalization.

We have also, over the last 40 years, given blacks and women complete civil rights, to the point where women outnumber men in the educational facilities. We have opened public discourse about gays (something unheard of 50-60 years ago) and have completely liberalized our sex standards. We have also, over the last 60 years completely changed the we deal with big business and the impoverished in our society (no Coolegian ultra-conservative laissez-faire here). Not to mention the flood of new technologies and gadgets that we have allowed to transform our lives. Fears of being too dependent on computers didn't stop us from basing much of our infrastructure off them. To say we hate change is a crazy generalization. To say we're not too keen on it would be more accurate for a national stereotype.

But then again, such stereotypes tend to be inaccurate.
Firstistan
26-02-2008, 03:42
I love change.

But I hate change for change's sake, and self-destructive change, stupid change, and change-that-isn't-really-change-but-masquerades-as-change-to-get-the-new-guy-elected.

I have changed religions twice. From Methodism to Atheism, and then to to STFU-ism (when I learned that a lot of Atheists are just as obnoxious as the lousiest Fundies I've ever met.)

STFUism has one tenet (never call it a belief) : that anybody who mentions their religion, or lack thereof, as a reason for anything, should be beat about the head with a crowbar until they stop speaking.
Fall of Empire
26-02-2008, 03:51
I love change.

But I hate change for change's sake, and self-destructive change, stupid change, and change-that-isn't-really-change-but-masquerades-as-change-to-get-the-new-guy-elected.

I have changed religions twice. From Methodism to Atheism, and then to to STFU-ism (when I learned that a lot of Atheists are just as obnoxious as the lousiest Fundies I've ever met.)

STFUism has one tenet (never call it a belief) : that anybody who mentions their religion, or lack thereof, as a reason for anything, should be beat about the head with a crowbar until they stop speaking.

Good man. I shall join you in practicing STFUism.
Firstistan
26-02-2008, 03:53
What if.......I say I beat people around the head for mentioning their religion as a reason for something because I'm a STFUist?


Then you're a heretic.

Never Apologize, Never Explain!
Whatsnotreserved
26-02-2008, 03:57
STFUism has one tenet (never call it a belief) : that anybody who mentions their religion, or lack thereof, as a reason for anything, should be beat about the head with a crowbar until they stop speaking.

What if.......I say I beat people around the head for mentioning their religion as a reason for something because I'm a STFUist?
Conrado
26-02-2008, 03:57
That report actually sounds about right, if you ask me. My father switched Protestant denominations twice, I think. And myself, I was Baptized as a UCC Congregationalist, confirmed a Covenant, (Swedish off-shoot of Lutheran), and now practice and believe no religion, choosing personal morals and principles over theological dogma.
Firstistan
26-02-2008, 04:05
What if.......I say I beat people around the head for mentioning their religion as a reason for something because I'm a STFUist?

Alright then, I shall not speak of it.

Exactly. If yoiu must explain, You don't say "I hit him in the head with a crowbar because I'm a STFUist," you say "I hit him in the head with a crowbar because he's a f***ing annoying sanctimonious holier-than-thou a**hole."

It ain't a lie, even for the atheists.

Also good against peta members.
Whatsnotreserved
26-02-2008, 04:05
Then you're a heretic.

Never Apologize, Never Explain!

Alright then, I shall not speak of it.
Sel Appa
26-02-2008, 04:05
Alright, if we're so afraid of change, then explain how we "do it all the time" ?

That's what makes no sense.
Barringtonia
26-02-2008, 04:07
I have a take on why this is the case.

Religion is very tied up with the social structure of America, I think it's partly why it has such a hold. The church does not simply fill a spiritual gap in people's lives, it also fills a social gap. In a fairly non-static society, where people move town and state for jobs among others, it's a convenient means of meeting and greeting people when you're new.

People switch religions because they like the people from another church, they feel they fit in more and although they say it's the religion that fits their beliefs better, oftentimes it's not the case.

This is why personal beliefs may not accord with the strict interpretation of the church they belong to.

America is funny this way but it's partly to do with the historic make up of the country, the immigrant population bringing many beliefs and the itinerant nature of populating the country.

It's not the be-all-an-end-all explanation but I think it's a large factor.
Amor Pulchritudo
26-02-2008, 04:34
Madonna is American, and she changes all of the time, and I'm not just talking about target market or costumes...

http://www.evangelicalright.com/madonna-getty-cp-71564698.jpg

http://image.guardian.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/arts/2004/11/01/madonna1.jpg

http://www.absolutemadonna.com/interesting/kabbalaha.jpg

http://www.entertainmentwise.com/artists/00011642_madge.jpg

http://www.isrealli.org/wp-content/uploads/madonna.JPG

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/english/doc/2004-06/18/xin_280601181143072235207.jpg