NationStates Jolt Archive

Kind of straight forward, What country do you think makes the best small arms on a whole? Including rifles, submachine guns, sniper rifles, shotguns, etc.

afghanistain

This post has reminded me of an article I read recently

http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/0,1518,536787,00.html

Seems the Russians are now convinced that German guns suck ;)

If you exclude anti-tank, anti-vehicle, and man portable anti-aircraft weapons, I think you'd have to give it to the swiss.

What happened to Italy and Australia aka Beretta and Glock?

Kind of straight forward, What country do you think makes the best small arms on a whole? Including rifles, submachine guns, sniper rifles, shotguns, etc.

Erm, I would presume either Switzerland or Sweden, neither of which is on your poll for some reason...

My understanding is that in terms of the sheer size of worldwide trade and use, nothing beats the Kalashnikov (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AK-47).

In terms of objective measure, the terrorists, drug dealers, rebels, warlords, (para-) militaries, and murderous dictators of the world have spoken.

My understanding is that in terms of the sheer size of worldwide trade and use, nothing beats the Kalashnikov (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AK-47).

In terms of objective measure, the terrorists, drug dealers, rebels, warlords, and murderous dictators of the world have spoken.

Kalashnikov is an extreme of cheapness and ruggedness. Although its cheapness has to be considered with the fact that its ubiquitous distribution was subsidized by the Soviet government. I don't think that cheap and rugged are enough to make a "best" small arm, on their own.

I'd say Germany. Heckler and Koch make great guns.

Kalashnikov is an extreme of cheapness and ruggedness. Although its cheapness has to be considered with the fact that its ubiquitous distribution was subsidized by the Soviet government. I don't think that cheap and rugged are enough to make a "best" small arm, on their own.

A firearm doesn't have to be expensive and made of precision Swiss engineering in order to be effective in putting holes in things. OK, a particular weapon might outperform another by all kinds of measures, but if it is fragile and expensive, nobody will want to use it. If nobody is using it, if some other choice is preferred, how is it the "best?"

No, they aren't the only measures, but cheapness and ruggedness probably carry the most weight. And when it comes down to it, "best" is simply a function of choice, and the most objective measure of choice is sheer market demand (including illicit market demand).

By that measure, the Kalashnikov has no equal.

Which country makes the best small arms?

Lilliput?

Israel. Uzi. QED.

What happened to Italy and Australia aka Beretta and Glock?

I think you'll find that's Austria. :rolleyes:

Steyr is Austrian too.

A firearm doesn't have to be expensive and made of precision Swiss engineering in order to be effective in putting holes in things. OK, a particular weapon might outperform another by all kinds of measures, but if it is fragile and expensive, nobody will want to use it. If nobody is using it, if some other choice is preferred, how is it the "best?"

No, they aren't the only measures, but cheapness and ruggedness probably carry the most weight. And when it comes down to it, "best" is simply a function of choice, and the most objective measure of choice is sheer market demand (including illicit market demand).

By that measure, the Kalashnikov has no equal.

I defy you to handle a Sig 550 and come back with a verdict of "fragile". The Valmet, Sig, and Galil all borrow features or entire systems from the Kalashnikov, while improving quality and accuracy, and retaining ruggedness. The argument about demand is circular. The Soviets dumped millions of Kalashnikovs on the world market, so whether third world combatants wanted FAL's, AR's or Garands, what they were likely to get were AK's. A goatherder can buy an AK in an African market for 50 dollars, so that's what goatherders use. It's not sensible to measure demand against a product that can't even be found on that market.

Not a fucking clue. I genuinely know bugger all about guns.

:mp5::sniper::mp5::sniper::mp5::sniper::sniper:BELGIUM: Falklands: FN vs. FN BELGIAN SMALL ARMS ARE THE BEST!!!!!:mp5:

Germany. Heckler and Koch are still the standard to beat.

G3 Assault Rifle - equal or better of any in the world.

MP-5 series SMG - THE premier submachineguns on the world market.

USP - one of the finest pistols on earth.

I'd have to go with Germany (H&K specifically) although my favorite 'small arm (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1e/Barrett-M82-latrun-exhibition-1.jpg/800px-Barrett-M82-latrun-exhibition-1.jpg)' is made by an American company.

Corellia.

*nods*

Whichever gun I'm holding in my hand at any given time, that's the country I prefer. Clack clack clack bang!
You can have my gun when you pry it from cold dead fingers.

I don't think you can simply say one country is better than all the others at making guns than other countries. You have to break it down by category.

Pistols: Austria(Glock) idiot proof reliable and accurate pistol. the 17 round mag size helps.

SMG's: Germany(MP-5) small, powerful, easy to use, and comes in more variations than you can shake a stick at.

Assault Rifles: Russia(AK-47) No contest here. It can be punch through concrete, 8 inches of wood, accurate out to about 200yrds, and you can run over it with a truck and still have it work.

Civilian Long arms (America) Remington produces the best hunting rifles I've seen, and makes some good shotguns as well.

Whichever gun I'm holding in my hand at any given time, that's the country I prefer. Clack clack clack bang!
You can have my gun when you pry it from cold dead fingers.

Interesting....

This answers the question in the OP how?

The AK-47 is undoubtibly the best gun ever made, when you factor everything in.

It was designed in 1947 and is has remained virtually unchanged.

The Germans seem to be good at making sub machine guns, the Russkies made the AK-47, US America made the M-16 which is right now the "best" assault rifle on the planet if your country can afford them.

Just look at the Israeli army: The guns they use are the best since they're the only developed nation on the planet right now that is surrounded by people who want to see them die.

Pft, I don't know now. There isn't really a "best" gun.

After all, you wouldn’t want to use an AK47 for close-range fighting, would you?
Maybe you wouldn’t...

*points to Timesplitters 2 best time*

Depends on circumstance. After all, you wouldn't want to use an AK47 for close-range fighting, would you? The reload time alone would garantee you an early grave. You also wouldn't use a pistol or shotgun for long-range sniping. Depends on what you need.

Depends on circumstance. After all, you wouldn't want to use an AK47 for close-range fighting, would you? The reload time alone would garantee you an early grave. You also wouldn't use a pistol or shotgun for long-range sniping. Depends on what you need.

long reload time? The AK-47 can be one of the fastest weapons to reload if you practice. I've seen it done in less than two seconds. You just grab the next mag, bring you hand up and click the latch to release the empty mag, then slide and click the new mag into place.

If you exclude anti-tank, anti-vehicle, and man portable anti-aircraft weapons, I think you'd have to give it to the swiss.

I'm hearing you on the Swiss.

Rolling squid;13475011']long reload time? The AK-47 can be one of the fastest weapons to reload if you practice. I've seen it done in less than two seconds. You just grab the next mag, bring you hand up and click the latch to release the empty mag, then slide and click the new mag into place.


You are talking a trained infantryman. I have a AK-47 and an AR-15. I sometimes will take friends out for some fun with my gun collection. Between those two weapons the AK-47 almost always needs me to explain what they need to do. Almost everyone that has no military experience takes awhile fiddling with loading a new AK clip. The AR-15 is a simple drop and slam. However the AR-15 does take a second for the novice trying to figure out how to pull the bolt back.

You are talking a trained infantryman. I have a AK-47 and an AR-15. I sometimes will take friends out for some fun with my gun collection. Between those two weapons the AK-47 almost always needs me to explain what they need to do. Almost everyone that has no military experience takes awhile fiddling with loading a new AK clip. The AR-15 is a simple drop and slam. However the AR-15 does take a second for the novice trying to figure out how to pull the bolt back.

Well, yes, perhaps the AK has a bit steeper learning curve, but it makes almost no difference, in the long run of training, and once established, the AK is quicker to reload than a drop and click, especially if you have to do it by feel or under pressure.

Russia, by far.

Wish list:

Para-ordinance Warthog .45 ACP
Mossberg 590 12 ga.
Thompson/Center Encore (.308, .223, 6.5 mm, and only $200-$250 for each new caliber!)
Ruger 10/22
Walther P22
Marlin 30-30 (not sure which specific model I want)
AR-10 .308

You'll note that most of these are American. Soviet bloc weapons are reliable but tend to be less accurate and refined. German firearms are usually highly refined but can suffer in reliability. American combat arms are slightly less refined but quite reliable and accurate.

My 2 cents

What happened to Italy and Australia aka Beretta and Glock?

First off, Beretta, definitely not. Especially not the Beretta 92/M9 series of pistols. Yeah, fifteen rounds is a nice amount of lead to lay down, but firing the pistol is not, at least from my experiences, a smooth operation. It's jerky and awkward at times, nothing like Browning's M1911A1, which was smooth and fluid.

And Glock...oooh boy. Let's just say, just as Kangaroos don't come from Austria, Glock doesn't come from Australia.

http://www.impactguns.com/store/media/para_warthog.jpg

10 rounds of .45 ACP boom boom in a subcompact - and the one I held was far more comfortable than the diminutive grip would suggest. It's got a big brother called the 14-.45 that's a full-size with (duh) 14 rounds. Best of both worlds! High capacity and throws the BIG lead chunks!

According to CounterStrike, Belgium has some kick ass SMGs. Enough to totally fucking pwn at cs_office

The AK-47 is undoubtibly the best gun ever made, when you factor everything in.

It was designed in 1947 and is has remained virtually unchanged.


Actually, in 1974 they made a new version: the AK-74.

China, brightly coloured toy guns FTW!

though I did have a magnificent water gun from Taiwan...

Russia, because they make a hell of a lot of cheap but workable stuff (the AK74M is perfectly acceptable and almost never breaks), and also extremely finely engineered, but expensive stuff (the new-ish AN-94 series, for example).

In terms of SMGs, only the Interior Ministry troops really use them, but they're respectable enough on that front, preferring genuine machine pistols to larger MP5-esque affairs.

Also, if you turn on the news and something bad's happening in Afghanistan, or Yemen, or the Phillipines, or whereever, you can be almost 100% sure that there'll be an AK47 in the picture at one point or other. And you can't really argue with that.

China, brightly coloured toy guns FTW!

though I did have a magnificent water gun from Taiwan...
The Party is displeased at your reluctance to see Taiwan as a part of the greater China.

The Party is displeased at your reluctance to see Taiwan as a part of the greater China.

do you like being warm and dry?

I thought so and thats what will happen if you argue with where the gun clearly says its from :cool:

Country with the best small arms?

http://www.stewartsynopsis.com/Communiques/Birdsell%20&%20Pygmy%203.jpg

You don't get smaller than that. :p

do you like being warm and dry?

I thought so and thats what will happen if you argue with where the gun clearly says its from :cool:
:(

Kind of straight forward, What country do you think makes the best small arms on a whole? Including rifles, submachine guns, sniper rifles, shotguns, etc.

Othger. It all depends on the rather subjective definition of "best" and the purpose of the firearm. For example, is the best AR the one that is high maintanance but is equally accurate or the low maintanance one that is less accurate, or the median? (Note that tolerances affect maintanance and inversly accuracy. You can have a high accuracy and maintanance rifle, a low maintanance and accuracy rifle, but never both.) How about the large caliber one that puts bigger hole in targets, the small caliber one that allows the average grunt to carry more ammunition?

Further questions:
Cheap, nasty, and fast to manufacture vs expensive, wicked, and longer to manufacture?
How about variety? Does a nation that makes 1 excellent rifle and 19 crappy ones rate better than a nation that makes 5 good ones and 15 OK ones or a nation that makes 20 decent ones? Or what of a nation that makes awesom rifles and crud pistols?

Rolling squid]Civilian Long arms (America) Remington produces the best hunting rifles I've seen, and makes some good shotguns as well.

Never fired a Weatherby, have you? ;) My father's Weatherby Vanguard .270 WSM is simply the finest deer rifle I've ever had the pleasure to have fired.

Also, if you turn on the news and something bad's happening in Afghanistan, or Yemen, or the Phillipines, or whereever, you can be almost 100% sure that there'll be an AK47 in the picture at one point or other. And you can't really argue with that.

As far as Afghanistan or Yemen, that would most likely be understood as the fact that Soviet or Soviet allied forces left plenty of munitions depots behind after they withdrew, or the fact that the primary mode of Soviet aid to their "allies" in Africa was in the form of weapons. That's the one thing the Soviet Union was great at: Building simple military hardware, and giving it to dark-skinned people around the world so that they can kill themselves aggressively.

As far as Afghanistan or Yemen, that would most likely be understood as the fact that Soviet or Soviet allied forces left plenty of munitions depots behind after they withdrew, or the fact that the primary mode of Soviet aid to their "allies" in Africa was in the form of weapons. That's the one thing the Soviet Union was great at: Building simple military hardware, and giving it to dark-skinned people around the world so that they can kill themselves aggressively.

That does fit one definition of best however. The AK-47 is one of the best assualt rifles ever made, if your definition of best is low maintanance/accuracy, cheap and nasty, and quick and easy to manufacture in large numbers.

The AK-47 is undoubtibly the best gun ever made, when you factor everything in. true true

true true

That's like saying the Big Mac is the best meal ever created, all things considered.

That does fit one definition of best however. The AK-47 is one of the best assualt rifles ever made, if your definition of best is low maintanance/accuracy, cheap and nasty, and quick and easy to manufacture in large numbers.

In other words, it's the Russian equivalent of the original Volkswagen Beetle.

Both were designed by expert technicians in their field (Mikhail Kalashnikov and Ferdinand Porsche, respectively), and neither are particularly appealing as anything but an entry-level purchase.

eeer...you know what I mean.

In other words, it's the Russian equivalent of the original Volkswagen Beetle.

Both were designed by expert technicians in their field (Mikhail Kalashnikov and Ferdinand Porsche, respectively), and neither are particularly appealing as anything but an entry-level purchase.


First, a side point. Mikhail Kalashnikov may have had some genuis insights, but prior to the AK-47, I'd hardly call a railway technical clerk (http://kalashnikov.guns.ru/mk.html/) an expert small arms designer...

Secondly, and germaine to the topic at hand, the AK-47 (and the Beetle) could most certai nly qualify as the best, depending on what we're talking about. As the OP has left this open, would you dispute the AK-47's place as one of the best cheap and nasty firearms?

First, a side point. Mikhail Kalashnikov may have had some genuis insights, but prior to the AK-47, I'd hardly call a railway technical clerk (http://kalashnikov.guns.ru/mk.html/) an expert small arms designer...

I'd argue that his displayed technical talent in the field shows him to be more than just a lucky amateur. Far greater than that of many who spent their entire lives training and developing themselves in this field.

Secondly, and germaine to the topic at hand, the AK-47 (and the Beetle) could most certai nly qualify as the best, depending on what we're talking about. As the OP has left this open, would you dispute the AK-47's place as one of the best cheap and nasty firearms?

I would say that we see the same point on this comparison. :)

First off, Beretta, definitely not. Especially not the Beretta 92/M9 series of pistols. Yeah, fifteen rounds is a nice amount of lead to lay down, but firing the pistol is not, at least from my experiences, a smooth operation. It's jerky and awkward at times, nothing like Browning's M1911A1, which was smooth and fluid.

And Glock...oooh boy. Let's just say, just as Kangaroos don't come from Austria, Glock doesn't come from Australia.

I don't know, I loved the Beretta 92.

I don't know, I loved the Beretta 92.

In all honesty, I loathed that gun. I could never get good accuracy with it, it was jerky and unpleasent to fire - worse, though I freely admit I may simply have gotten a lemon (everybody else's seemed okay) it was quite unreliable. Our company armourer was never able to find the problem.

I eventually just started carrying my Sig instead. Against regs, but our Lieutenant never said anything about it. (Might be the fact that I could outshoot him on the range with my Sig, but not the Beretta).

The 1911 Colt .45 ACP is one of the best combat handguns ever created. I shot a Colt 1911A1 and a Browning Hi-power side-by-side once some years back. The designs are (outwardly) similar and they feel almost the same in the hand, but the 9mm Hi-power SNAPPED a lot more than the .45. All 9mms that I have shot have snapped back rather unpleasantly. The .45 kick is much more manageable (contrary to rumors) and with the Para-Ordinance 14-45, the magazine capacity advantage of the 9 disappears. Not to mention the slight "stopping power" advantage of bigger bullets that aren't as likely to over-penetrate.

That said, I'd like to shoot a Sig one day. They do have a good reputation.

In all honesty, I loathed that gun. I could never get good accuracy with it, it was jerky and unpleasent to fire - worse, though I freely admit I may simply have gotten a lemon (everybody else's seemed okay) it was quite unreliable. Our company armourer was never able to find the problem.

I eventually just started carrying my Sig instead. Against regs, but our Lieutenant never said anything about it. (Might be the fact that I could outshoot him on the range with my Sig, but not the Beretta).

Everybody has different preferences, for example; although I have no particular problem with the M1911, I don't particularly like it either... It just 'feels' wrong to me.

I'd argue that his displayed technical talent in the field shows him to be more than just a lucky amateur. Far greater than that of many who spent their entire lives training and developing themselves in this field.

That wasn't meant to disparage his talents. It's just that he wasn't an expert on the subject when he started on it.

I would say that we see the same point on this comparison. :)

Indeed. :)

First off, Beretta, definitely not. Especially not the Beretta 92/M9 series of pistols. Yeah, fifteen rounds is a nice amount of lead to lay down, but firing the pistol is not, at least from my experiences, a smooth operation. It's jerky and awkward at times, nothing like Browning's M1911A1, which was smooth and fluid.

And Glock...oooh boy. Let's just say, just as Kangaroos don't come from Austria, Glock doesn't come from Australia.

Admittedly, I have very limited experience with the Berretta 92F, but I liked it, and it seemed smooth (of course, I shot it during my first introduction to pistols, and haven't shot pistols since that day).

Belgium or Germany.

USA. Browning .50 cal BMG, M1911 .45 ACP, BAR, Thmopson Submachine gun, ect.

What happened to Italy and Australia aka Beretta and Glock?

Those guns are MP40 wanna bees:)

What! Do dwarfs have their own country now?

Belgium and Switzerland

The trouble with small arms is that you end up with cold, dead hands.

For me it was an even toss between Belgium and Germany, particularly in regards to their assault rifle and submachine gun offerings, but their pistols are great too. I voted Belgium, though.

Germany, sorry but H&K do make the very best.

For me it was an even toss between Belgium and Germany, particularly in regards to their assault rifle and submachine gun offerings, but their pistols are great too. I voted Belgium, though.

I'm no expert but I do believe the Fabrique Nationale P90 is the weapon of choice of several of the world special forces, so I too vote Belgium (although arguably that could be cos I just watch too much Stargate).

Considering I like so many of their weapns, I'd have to say Germany. I love Sig Sauers (technically German, though also Swiss) especially the Sig P239 and H&K MK23. I also like the H&K G-36C as an assault rifle, and it's relation to the XM-8 makes it even more attractive. Also, there's the classic MP-5 with all its variants.

ps: i think the P-90 is overrated.

Belgium by far

Italy of course. 500-year-old Beretta of Gardone Val Trompia. And guess what pistol does the US Army use?

We could also talk about the Mannlicher-Carcano (the rifle that can shoot magical bullets), or Benelli, or Franchi, but that would be overkill ;)

This proves I need to get some sleep (been up 31 hours now), because when I read the title of this thread I could have sworn it said Which Country Has the Best Smelling Arms"

NEED SLEEP!