NationStates Jolt Archive

http://technology.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/tech_and_web/article3403705.ece

Looks like our friend, DVD Jon, has managed to crack the DRM that let Apple monopolize the market on mp3 players. Now you can finally listen to the music you legally purchased on whatever god damn player you want. The sad part is Apple's legal pit bulls and government lobbied toadies are going to sit around and bitch and get this declared illegal because it is cracking DRM. Because letting people use music they legally purchased on anything but an iPod should be a fucking criminal offense.

This poor phrasing from the article does not inspire confidence:

"About a hundred songs can be converted in half an hour, doubleTwist said, although there is a 5 per cent loss of sound quality - about the same as when a CD is copied."

I can't understand why anyone would use iTunes if they didn't have an iPod, but still, good for DVD Jon. The music and film industry's unconquerable fear of piracy and unwillingness to change they way they operate will be remembered as the last mistake they ever made.

I can't understand why anyone would use iTunes if they didn't have an iPod, but still, good for DVD Jon.
people who didn't realise that iTunes only work on iPods. Or perhaps people who had an iPod, bought a shitload of stuff off iTunes, had their iPod lost/stolen/broken/realised it's shit/crap out on them and bought a different company's player.
So now they've got hundreds of legally bought songs that they can't play.

http://technology.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/tech_and_web/article3403705.ece

Looks like our friend, DVD Jon, has managed to crack the DRM that let Apple monopolize the American market on mp3 players.
Fixed for accuracy.

Itunes does not have a monopoly. What about rhapsody and every other music program?

Bono will not be pleased with this one

I can't understand why anyone would use iTunes if they didn't have an iPod

I just use songbird because its easier to get the music on MYpod(and because the alternative is windows media:()

I can't understand why anyone would use iTunes if they didn't have an iPod...
I can't understand why anyone would use an iPod.

I can't understand why anyone would use an iPod.

Because it's convenient to have something compatible with all your friends' music so you can put it on your mp3 player...

Says the person who will get screwed over by that sort of logic the most once the get in to the professional world. :/

I can't understand why anyone would use an iPod.

because I had a £90 voucher at Comet and it was that, a phone or a toaster :mad:

Because it's convenient to have something compatible with all your friends' music so you can put it on your mp3 player...

because I had a £90 voucher at Comet and it was that, a phone or a toaster :mad:
I meant there were larger, more compatiable, cheaper, DRM-free mp3 player out there, and I couldn't understand why someone would choose an iPod over them.

sticks it to apple? why exactly does apple require sticking to on this? as i recall, they aren't the ones who demanded drm as a condition of allowing songs to be sold on itunes.

Point made. If the RIAA had their way, Apple would probably have some much stricter DRM programs and the music would cost a lot more. True story.

sticks it to apple? why exactly does apple require sticking to on this? as i recall, they aren't the ones who demanded drm as a condition of allowing songs to be sold on itunes.

sticks it to apple? why exactly does apple require sticking to on this? as i recall, they aren't the ones who demanded drm as a condition of allowing songs to be sold on itunes.

Thank you, the voice of reason.

I have an iPod, as they were getting rid of the Mini when I was buying the cheap G5 iMacs...which they were also getting rid of...

Thing is, as remarkable a tool as it can be, I've almost never used it. Why? I don't have the time or inclination to sit at my computer for the endless hours it would take to rip all 500+ of my CDs to my computer and then to my iPod. As of now, I'll use it when I have a song I need to play for class as an example, but that's about it. About three uses a month, tops.

Most of my listening happens when I drive, and the mp3 player hasn't impressed me as a CD player replacement as yet.

What we need is a service for students who want to make extra money. You pay the kid $0.25 per CD to burn them into your iTunes or what have you. He burns 100 CDs at what, one per minute? That's .25 x 60 = $15/hour? Not too shabby. Dial up those dickheads at Geek Squad and tell them Intangelon said GET ON THIS, YOU ASSHOLES!

I can't understand why anyone would use an iPod.

'Cos I got given one free as part of the press promotion pack for a computer game :D

But seriously. If the quality loss is the same as that when ripping a song, then the only advantage against the old method of burning to CD and re-ripping is one of speed, so I would suggest this is not really news.

When I bought my ipod mini I recall it being one of the best mp3 players on the market. It was also useful to have a portable hard drive. Maybe the competition is better now but I still like my ipod.

I've never bought any Apple product, especially an mp3 player, and I've owned mp3 players since '99, if not earlier. I really don't think they've cornered the market here, even if they're the trendiest brand among the high school-aged kids.

Because it's convenient to have something compatible with all your friends' music so you can put it on your mp3 player...

Which doesn't address the confusion at all.

'Cos I got given one free as part of the press promotion pack for a computer game :D

But seriously. If the quality loss is the same as that when ripping a song, then the only advantage against the old method of burning to CD and re-ripping is one of speed, so I would suggest this is not really news.
I'm not sure what part of "you don't have to burn it to a CD to listen to a legally bought song" you people don't understand.

You buy random songs on iTunes, or you buy 3 or 4. Are you going to waste a CD just so you don't have to use a fucking iPod to listen to music you have the legal right to listen to?

You could always, just, you know, burn the songs onto a CD, and then import them right back as MP3's. That's what I do.

It also gives you the benefit of having the songs on a physical CD, and permitting you to have a physical backup.

You could always, just, you know, burn the songs onto a CD, and then import them right back as MP3's. That's what I do.

It also gives you the benefit of having the songs on a physical CD, and permitting you to have a physical backup.
Right, so I want to buy 3 songs. You can buy individual songs you know. Should I waste a whole CD so I can listen to 3 songs I legally bought on any player or multimedia software I want?

You? Epic fail.

Which doesn't address the confusion at all.

Joe College student wants his friend's music to listen to. He could ask his friend to burn a few CDs... or, hey, look, they both have iPods, so Joe's buddy just puts all the albums Joe wants on Joe's iPod for him to listen to whenever he pleases.

That adds to why some people choose iPods.

Seconding what Intangelon says, unclench. CDs aren't that expensive, and why are you using the iTunes store if you don't have an iPod anyway?

I'm not sure what part of "you don't have to burn it to a CD to listen to a legally bought song" you people don't understand.

You buy random songs on iTunes, or you buy 3 or 4. Are you going to waste a CD just so you don't have to use a fucking iPod to listen to music you have the legal right to listen to?

"Waste a CD"? Dude, if you're THAT low on cash, you shouldn't have maxed out your credit card on an mp3 player to begin with. Jeez, burn the three songs with some other stuff you've been meaning to burn, for corn's sake.

You're not fail, but sheesh, unclench a bit.

"Waste a CD"? Dude, if you're THAT low on cash, you shouldn't have maxed out your credit card on an mp3 player to begin with. Jeez, burn the three songs with some other stuff you've been meaning to burn, for corn's sake.

You're not fail, but sheesh, unclench a bit.

What's your information? You are going to be billed for every CD I waste converting iTunes purchased DRM music to usable mp3s.


Seconding what Intangelon says, unclench. CDs aren't that expensive, and why are you using the iTunes store if you don't have an iPod anyway?
Are you people clueless or intentionally obtuse? iTunes has a far better deal with the music industry which results in them having a far, far larger audio collection for sale compared to other outlets. Apple knows it, the industry knows it, and people who don't have their heads buried in the iCulture sand know it.

Couldn't you just get a couple CD-RWs?
This is like trying to tell a 2 year old that he can't have an elephant for a pet :rolleyes:

Right, so I want to buy 3 songs. You can buy individual songs you know. Should I waste a whole CD so I can listen to 3 songs I legally bought on any player or multimedia software I want?
Couldn't you just get a couple CD-RWs?

Are you people clueless or intentionally obtuse? iTunes has a far better deal with the music industry which results in them having a far, far larger audio collection for sale compared to other outlets. Apple knows it, the industry knows it, and people who don't have their heads buried in the iCulture sand know it.

Christ, stop being such an asshole.

Amazon sells mp3's for just $.99, WalMart probably sells a bunch of hits for about that much. If you're looking for music that's so hard to find, than why not just buy the CD? You get liner notes, a hard copy, and the knowledge that if your computer ever crapped out you won't lose your entire music library.

I don't have my head buried in the sand, I do realize that by using an iPod and iTunes I have access to a hell of a lot more music than by using any other service. It's yet another strike in favor of iPods. Besides, if the industry had their way, the music on iTunes would definitely not be that cheap. Just wait until they have to renegotiate prices.

Christ, stop being such an asshole.

Amazon sells mp3's for just $.99, WalMart probably sells a bunch of hits for about that much. If you're looking for music that's so hard to find, than why not just buy the CD? You get liner notes, a hard copy, and the knowledge that if your computer ever crapped out you won't lose your entire music library.

I don't have my head buried in the sand, I do realize that by using an iPod and iTunes I have access to a hell of a lot more music than by using any other service. It's yet another strike in favor of iPods. Besides, if the industry had their way, the music on iTunes would definitely not be that cheap. Just wait until they have to renegotiate prices.
Because Johnny, elephants are wild animals. And they wouldn't fit in the house.

I do realize that by using an iPod and iTunes I have access to a hell of a lot more music than by using any other service. It's yet another strike in favor of iPods.
No, that's a good reason to make Apple open up their system because it is letting them monopolize the market.
No one is defending Microsoft because certain things only run on Vista, or on Windows. Microsoft gets attacked and people toss themselves in front of Apple to take all the "bad pr fact" bullets

No, that's a good reason to make Apple open up their system because it is letting them monopolize the market.
No one is defending Microsoft because certain things only run on Vista, or on Windows. Microsoft gets attacked and people toss themselves in front of Apple to take all the "bad pr fact" bullets

Okay, do you realize who is REALLY getting screwed in this deal? $.99/song is getting divided about a hundred different ways between musicians, songwriters, those involved in the recording of the song, THE LABEL, and iTunes.

Yeah, Apple may almost have a monopoly. But if you want to hear me complain about who it hurts, it's those who put effort in to creating the work and end up making beans for a hit song.

I apologise if I'm just being particularly dense, but what exactly is the hassle with iPods?

I've handled most of my music in mp3 format for more than 10 years. I ripped my CD collection first and then, a few years later when I finally got round to buying a new stylus, ripped my vinyls and cassettes (and what a horror that was). I've never had any trouble using any of them on any of the mp3-compatible players that I've used over the years. I don't buy music from iTunes because there are plenty of other places that I can purchase mp3s and because, in any case, I still usually buy the CD and then rip it to join all the others. I just don't understand these hassles that people keep moaning about, because I haven't had any. At all.

What problems am I supposed to be having?

You're a rare breed. :/ Most people don't buy CDs anymore. If you use iTunes to buy your music, the files won't work with any other program or player.

I apologise if I'm just being particularly dense, but what exactly is the hassle with iPods?

I've handled most of my music in mp3 format for more than 10 years. I ripped my CD collection first and then, a few years later when I finally got round to buying a new stylus, ripped my vinyls and cassettes (and what a horror that was). I've never had any trouble using any of them on any of the mp3-compatible players that I've used over the years. I don't buy music from iTunes because there are plenty of other places that I can purchase mp3s and because, in any case, I still usually buy the CD and then rip it to join all the others. I just don't understand these hassles that people keep moaning about, because I haven't had any. At all.

What problems am I supposed to be having?

Right, so I want to buy 3 songs. You can buy individual songs you know. Should I waste a whole CD so I can listen to 3 songs I legally bought on any player or multimedia software I want?

You? Epic fail.

Three single songs cost how much?
And CDs cost how much?

I meant there were larger, more compatiable, cheaper, DRM-free mp3 player out there, and I couldn't understand why someone would choose an iPod over them.

Becuase people like shelling out $200 for the iPod. The one and only,fancy-smancy, everyone has one, ooh look at my trendy, iPod.

People ignore the fact that the Zune is pretty good as well. That there were other MP3 players before the iPod. That you can still buy a $50 MP3 player at Radio Shack, and it can easily store just as much music as an iPod, and many cell phones currently have funtional music players, that have the same capibilities as the iPod setup.

What problems am I supposed to be having?

basically, you are supposed to be having a problem when you buy songs on itunes, because the damn music industry fucks demanded that apple come up with a way to stop their songs from getting copied for free after they were purchased. apple, having pushed them far enough to allow several different computers to have copies of a single song and occasionally getting them to put out songs without drm stupidness on them, still bears responsibility for making sure that the drm stuff keeps working as part of their deal that allows the itunes store to exist. thus they decided to link their drm to the ipod, so they wouldn't expose themselves to more risk by increasing the number of people with easy access to the key to disabling it.

Three single songs cost how much?
And CDs cost how much?

You people are welcome to fund my CD purchases.

People ignore the fact that the Zune is pretty good as well. That there were other MP3 players before the iPod. That you can still buy a $50 MP3 player at Radio Shack, and it can easily store just as much music as an iPod, and many cell phones currently have funtional music players, that have the same capibilities as the iPod setup.

The sound quality of phones as music players are atrocious. Unless there is some hidden phone that is great and can hold as much as my iPod. Plus, doesn't it kill the battery of your phone pretty fast?

I had other mp3 players before the iPod, but my iPod kept me amused through many long trips- watching Bones, listening to music, and sometimes listening to audiobooks. And the battery life is great. Plus it's easy to make a fast playlist if I need something different to work out to.

I think if people hate Apple for the incompatibility of file formats, you need to put your money where your mouth is instead of complaining but still shopping through iTunes.

people who didn't realise that iTunes only work on iPods. Or perhaps people who had an iPod, bought a shitload of stuff off iTunes, had their iPod lost/stolen/broken/realised it's shit/crap out on them and bought a different company's player.
So now they've got hundreds of legally bought songs that they can't play.

iTunes came with one of my cellphones. I used it to put music on my phone, never once did I buy stuff from iTunes..

People ignore the fact that the Zune is pretty good as well. That there were other MP3 players before the iPod. That you can still buy a $50 MP3 player at Radio Shack, and it can easily store just as much music as an iPod, and many cell phones currently have funtional music players, that have the same capibilities as the iPod setup.

The iPod is an icon. A brand of style. People by them for the same reason they buy Heinz ketchup instead of generic brand, or a Hoover rather than a normal vacuum cleaner.

It's not about the options or any implied superiority. It's so they can say, "I've got an iPod."

What's your information? You are going to be billed for every CD I waste converting iTunes purchased DRM music to usable mp3s.


Are you people clueless or intentionally obtuse? iTunes has a far better deal with the music industry which results in them having a far, far larger audio collection for sale compared to other outlets. Apple knows it, the industry knows it, and people who don't have their heads buried in the iCulture sand know it.

You're starting to sound a bit cretinous in defense of your anti-iPod stance. Really, blank CDs are cheap. I take my earlier moderation back. Fail.

Three single songs cost how much?
And CDs cost how much?

Thank you.

You people are welcome to fund my CD purchases.

Sonny, it's gonna cost me more to wire you the cash than it will to buy a 50-pack of CDs, never mind the re-burnability of RWs. Once more -- if you've got enough to buy a player and these purported hundreds of mp3s, you can't really be sweating the $10 for a multi-CD spool. I think you're being fractious just for the sake of it. That's fine, but it doesn't make your argument any stronger.

See? When I talk down to you, it's just as annoying as when you do it to others.

Looks like our friend, DVD Jon, has managed to crack the DRM that let Apple

Nope, he hasn't cracked it at all - "replaying a song in fast-forward and taking a copy of the audio track" is not cracking DRM! It's just recording the audio stream and re-encoding to a different format, with all the loss of quality that entails.

Should I waste a whole CD so I can listen to 3 songs I legally bought on any player or multimedia software I want?

Why would you even use a CD? Burn it to an iso image or equivalent and then mount the image off your hard drive. No CDs required.

You? Epic fail.

It's fun how people who don't even have basic "computerz skillz" and who would call this a "DRM crack" when all it is is an analogue exploit have the cluelessness to tell others they "epically failed", instead of getting that clue already.

It's fun how people who don't even have basic "computerz skillz" and who would call this a "DRM crack" when all it is is an analogue exploit have the cluelessness to tell others they "epically failed", instead of getting that clue already.

Also, if this was a DRM crack, the guy could be charged with a felony. I don't think people would advertise that so much, seeing as even the attempt to crack DRMs is a felony- even if you are doing so to make them more effective.

(Ridiculous... but true.)

Why would you even use a CD? Burn it to an iso image or equivalent and then mount the image off your hard drive. No CDs required.

It's fun how people who don't even have basic "computerz skillz" and who would call this a "DRM crack" when all it is is an analogue exploit have the cluelessness to tell others they "epically failed", instead of getting that clue already.

Ah, the sweet, sassy voice of reason. Lay on, sir, lay on.

What we need is a service for students who want to make extra money. You pay the kid $0.25 per CD to burn them into your iTunes or what have you. He burns 100 CDs at what, one per minute? That's .25 x 60 = $15/hour? Not too shabby. Dial up those dickheads at Geek Squad and tell them Intangelon said GET ON THIS, YOU ASSHOLES!
People do actually do this, as well as offering tagging services for your music files. I've seen a couple of adverts (admittedly only about two, in about three years) offering the service for around £50/day.

Stick it to the man!

You're starting to sound a bit cretinous in defense of your anti-iPod stance. Really, blank CDs are cheap. I take my earlier moderation back. Fail.
That's. Not. The. Point. The point is I would have to buy something else and go through a bunch of hassle in order to listen to music I legally purchased on the multimedia software I want or on any mp3 player but the iPod. It doesn't have a damn thing to do with being "anti-iPod." You people defending this kind of bullshit by saying "blank CDs an't that cheap" is how it gets started and goes on so long.


Sonny, it's gonna cost me more to wire you the cash than it will to buy a 50-pack of CDs,
So? Blank CDs are cheap. I have to buy blank CDs to burn the handful of iTunes songs I bought so I can listen to them without having to give more money to Apple. You can wire me the money and since it costs more to wire me the money than the CDs cost maybe you will get the fucking point I'm making.

Why would you even use a CD? Burn it to an iso image or equivalent and then mount the image off your hard drive. No CDs required.
Since you're so smart, which emulator emulates at least a CD-R drive?

It's fun how people who don't even have basic "computerz skillz" and who would call this a "DRM crack" when all it is is an analogue exploit have the cluelessness to tell others they "epically failed", instead of getting that clue already.
It's a DRM bypass that effectively amounts to cracking it. Don't you have some English threads to go be condescending in?

I can only see this as being a problem if Apple had a total monopoly on the online music business. Which, to my knowledge, they don't (Amazon etc all offer similar services).

If you have an iPod and/or use iTunes a lot, then buying from iTunes makes sense. If you don't, don't. You'll still have your music.

I can only see this as being a problem if Apple had a total monopoly on the online music business. Which, to my knowledge, they don't (Amazon etc all offer similar services).

If you have an iPod and/or use iTunes a lot, then buying from iTunes makes sense. If you don't, don't. You'll still have your music.
Amazon launched that last year, which is probably the reason iTunes started providing a handful of non-DRM songs. And, no, all the music services are not equal. Some have better deals with the industry with others, and iTunes has the best deal thus giving them a much larger library to choose from - mostly including all the songs people really want.

Amazon launched that last year, which is probably the reason iTunes started providing a handful of non-DRM songs. And, no, all the music services are not equal. Some have better deals with the industry with others, and iTunes has the best deal thus giving them a much larger library to choose from - mostly including all the songs people really want.

I would argue that iTunes has the best deal with the music industry due to its DRM which you seem to detest so much.

I would argue that iTunes has the best deal with the music industry due to its DRM which you seem to detest so much.
They all have DRM, before Amazon pushed the issue. The industry wants DRM because of "piracy takin er jurbs."

They all have DRM, before Amazon pushed the issue. The industry wants DRM because of "piracy takin er jurbs."

If they all have DRM, then why do you only seem to hate Apple for it? Because they're the most successful?

If they all have DRM, then why do you only seem to hate Apple for it? Because they're the most successful?
Because their DRM music only works with their player. Other services don't have their own player or otherwise let general mp3 players have the ability to play the music.

Because their DRM music only works with their player. Other services don't have their own player or otherwise let general mp3 players have the ability to play the music.

And the other services which are compatible with general mp3 players, by your own admission, have a poorer library of music and poorer deals with the industry.

It's a vicious circle. If you want a wide choice of cheap, online music, it appears that you'll have to put up with the barriers the music industry erect. If you don't want to put up with these barriers, you won't have the same selection.

It's a vicious circle. If you want a wide choice of cheap, online music, it appears that you'll have to put up with the barriers the music industry erect. If you don't want to put up with these barriers, you won't have the same selection.
The industry didn't erect the barrier that only Apple players can play music from the Apple iTunes store. That is something Apple did, something Apple has been doing for a long time, but they put so much money in selling their brand everyone ignores the bullshit they pull and go after Microsoft.

The industry didn't erect the barrier that only Apple players can play music from the Apple iTunes store. That is something Apple did, something Apple has been doing for a long time, but they put so much money in selling their brand everyone ignores the bullshit they pull and go after Microsoft.

How do you know that it was purely Apple's choice? Remember, the iPod came first - it's perfectly plausible to assume that a contingent on selling songs in iTunes was that they would only work on the iPod.

After all, the iPod was really quite successful before you could buy online songs, and I can't imagine all that many people go down the iTunes -> iPod route rather than the other way round.

Having said that, this is pure speculation on my part.

How do you know that it was purely Apple's choice? Remember, the iPod came first - it's perfectly plausible to assume that a contingent on selling songs in iTunes was that they would only work on the iPod.

After all, the iPod was really quite successful before you could buy online songs, and I can't imagine all that many people go down the iTunes -> iPod route rather than the other way round.

Having said that, this is pure speculation on my part.
And there were other mp3 player around before the iPod.

That's. Not. The. Point. The point is I would have to buy something else and go through a bunch of hassle in order to listen to music I legally purchased on the multimedia software I want or on any mp3 player but the iPod. It doesn't have a damn thing to do with being "anti-iPod." You people defending this kind of bullshit by saying "blank CDs an't that cheap" is how it gets started and goes on so long.



So? Blank CDs are cheap. I have to buy blank CDs to burn the handful of iTunes songs I bought so I can listen to them without having to give more money to Apple. You can wire me the money and since it costs more to wire me the money than the CDs cost maybe you will get the fucking point I'm making.

Just because you "legally purchased" something does not mean you have the right to use it however you want...particularly with digital media, what you actually buy is a license to it, not the files themselves.

Since you're so smart, which emulator emulates at least a CD-R drive?

Why would you need to "emulate" a CD-R drive in this context?

It's a DRM bypass that effectively amounts to cracking it.

Not even close. This is like recording the sound of the music played on the radio or on any device that lets you listen to a sound. It is nowhere near a crack, let alone does it "amount" to one.

Don't you have some English threads to go be condescending in?

You still have that clue to get.

Just because you "legally purchased" something does not mean you have the right to use it however you want...particularly with digital media, what you actually buy is a license to it, not the files themselves.
Right, I bought the license to play it. Which I can't do unless I only purchase Apple products.

Why would need to "emulate" a CD-R drive?
Then why don't you explain what you were talking about earlier?


Not even close. This is like recording the sound of the music played on the radio or on any device that lets you listen to the sound. It is nowhere near a crack, let alone does it "amount" to one.
So you are saying it diverts the audio out into a differently coded audio format?

Additionally, are you insinuating I used the word "amount" wrong there?

So don't buy your songs from i-tunes, its a rather simple concept, really.
Here is another reason people can pull shit like this.
"Ford's cars spontaneously combust? Don't buy Ford."
Not. The. Point.

Or you could, you know...download the songs illegally.

*Runs*

Right, I bought the license to play it. Which I can't do unless I only purchase Apple products.

Right. So, either you follow the license and there's no problem (that is, buy your music from itunes and play it on an ipod), you buy music from itunes and go around the copy protection (burn it to a cd and rip it back on) or buy from a different source.

Why exactly are you getting so huffy over it again? Itunes isn't the only digital music store, nor is digital the only music source. You aren't forced into using it, so whats with all the complaints?

Either abide by the license you agreed to purchase, or go around it. But quit bitching.

Right, I bought the license to play it. Which I can't do unless I only purchase Apple products.

So don't buy your songs from i-tunes, its a rather simple concept, really.

Then why don't you explain what you were talking about earlier?

You don't know what "mount an iso image" is? And still would like to tell other people they "fail epically" when it comes to computers? I rest my case.

So you are saying it diverts the audio out into a differently coded audio format?

It plays the file to generate the sound, then it takes that sound, records it and then encodes it into a different format. Every step in that chain loses quality, and is akin to you taking a CD and playing it on your stereo and having another stereo record the sound from the first stereo to a cassette. Nowhere near a "crack".

Additionally, are you insinuating I used the word "amount" wrong there?

I am not insinuating anything. I am outright telling you that you are clueless when it comes to this matter.

Not. The. Point.

Unless I missed something somewhere along the line, Apple doesn't exactly hide the fact that music bought from i-tunes will only play on Apple products, it is the point.

You don't know what "mount an iso image" is? And still would like to tell other people they "fail epically" when it comes to computers? I rest my case.
I'm still waiting for you to explain how that makes any difference. Putting the item in an ISO image is going to leave you with an Apple DRM song still.

Every step in that chain loses quality, and is akin to you taking a CD and playing it on your stereo and having another stereo record the sound from the first stereo to a cassette.
No, they arn't akin. There are a multitude of differences between encoding the output of multimedia software into a different format and copying that media to a CD, playing it on a stereo, and recording that sound into a cassette.

I am not insinuating anything. I am outright telling you that you are clueless when it comes to this matter.
Then I insinuate your grasp on the English language isn't quite as unquestionable as you think.

Unless I missed something somewhere along the line, Apple doesn't exactly hide the fact that music bought from i-tunes will only play on Apple products, it is the point.
No, it's not.
Ford can tell you their cars spontaneously combust, but it doesn't make it ok for them to do it.

I'm still waiting for you to explain how that makes any difference. Putting the item in an ISO image is going to leave you with an Apple DRM song still.

Haha, you don't even know what an iso image is. Here's that clue: the iso image contains what the audio is like on a CD. Burning to the iso is like burning to a CD and mounting the iso is like putting the CD in your CD/DVD/Blueray drive. You were bitching so ignorantly like a little schoolgirl about having to buy a €1 CD-RW that you could reuse hundreds of times, when there is no need to buy the CD at all to perform this exploit.

In fact, what the software you so proclaimed in the OP as a "crack" basically does is what I just described even though it sucks even more because it uses the sound instead, only it automates it for you. There is nothing original or "crack"-like to it. It is a way to automate what people have been doing for years.

No, they arn't akin. There are a multitude of differences between encoding the output of multimedia software into a different format and copying that media to a CD, playing it on a stereo, and recording that sound into a cassette.

You know what the "output of the multimedia software" is in this case? Sound. Which this software records and encodes to a different format. This software is exactly like the stereo with the cassette.

Then I insinuate your grasp on the English language isn't quite as unquestionable as you think.

But still much more firm than yours when it comes to both English as well as computers. Which isn't much of a difficult accomplishment.

Haha, you don't even know what an iso image is. Here's that clue: the iso image contains what the audio is like on a CD. Burning to the iso is like burning to a CD and mounting the iso is like putting the CD in your CD/DVD/Blueray drive. You were bitching so ignorantly like a little schoolgirl about having to buy a €1 CD-RW that you could reuse hundreds of times, when there is no need to buy the CD at all to perform this exploit.
And how do you propose one burns to an iso image? I can't wait to see you explain that.

You know what the "output of the multimedia software" is in this case? Sound. Which this software records and encodes to a different format. This software is exactly like the stereo with the cassette.
And you would be wrong. You don't have to play sound to record audio to a different format, in fact that slows down the process. It is nothing like the stereo and cassette. The wave output is being channeled into a different encoded file - while still in a digital format. The output is channeled somewhere that is not the speakers.


But still much more firm than yours when it comes to both English as well as computers. Which isn't much of a difficult accomplishment.
Obviously it's not, which will come up shortly I can see.

And how do you propose one burns to an iso image? I can't wait to see you explain that.

You make it sound like it is some mysterious and complex process. Try googling it...there are literally hundreds of "how-to" guides.

It's free and quite easy.

No, it's not.
Ford can tell you their cars spontaneously combust, but it doesn't make it ok for them to do it.

And if enough people take offense to the practice, and don't purchase their products then they'll be forced to change how they do business.
I am opposed to DRM's, thusly I do not own an i-pod or buy songs from i-tunes, problem solved.

Then I insinuate your grasp on the English language isn't quite as unquestionable as you think.

Nit-picking: That isn't insinuating. That's telling.

But, really, it seems like all this hate towards Apple is misdirected. Yet again, people hate a company who is only abiding by industry rules and United States law. The DRMs and such were all required by the RIAA and all those other groups. Because the first use doctrine doesn't apply to digital media, you need a stringent way to make sure people aren't just passing on files. (Buying a CD then reselling it later is cool. Buying an mp3 and reselling it, however, is not. It's a little more technical but that's the bare basics.) Apple's DRMs do this in an at least moderately efficient way. I'd get out my books and find which section of the United States Code this is in, but I'm lazy and have a killer headache. I'll do it later.

And to those of you who'd just steal music, may it be known that you've now made acquaintance with someone you'd be affecting. If you steal music you like, then the artist doesn't get enough record sales to go on to make another album. It's all based on sales, so if you like them.. buy it legal and they can keep making music. Plus, if you don't buy it you screw the sound engineers. Please, think of the engineers. Don't make us live on ramen for the rest of our lives.

note: This is not me agreeing with the current structure of the industry, or how we go about managing digital media. It's just the way things are.

You make it sound like it is some mysterious and complex process. Try googling it...there are literally hundreds of "how-to" guides.

It's free and quite easy.
I don't think either of you quite understand what you are proposing.

Yet again, people hate a company who is only abiding by industry rules and United States law.
That seems like bullshit considering other companies that sell DRM music don't have media players and thus can't limit their DRM music to a specific player like Apple does. Apple is doing it on purpose to make it appear like people have to buy their hardware. They have been doing this for years.

I don't think either of you quite understand what you are proposing.

I'm not sure you understand. At all. So there you go. I am, however, positive that I understand as I have done it before. And I'm willing to bet Fass has as well.

Burning an iso image is no different than burning a CD...the CD in this case, however, is a virtual one. You then mount the image, which is taking the virtual CD and putting it in a virtual drive. You then rip the music.

It is the same as burning a CD, but doesn't cost anything. You were complaining about having to buy CD's to burn it? Well, here is a free alternative. Free, easy, fast, and effective.

And how do you propose one burns to an iso image? I can't wait to see you explain that.

Bwahahaha! Every single burning software out there worth the name allows you to create an iso. It's selecting an option, ticking a box. But then it seems that would be too complicated for you, but I can't help you with that - as I said, you're the only who can get that clue you are so lacking.

And you would be wrong. You don't have to play sound to record audio to a different format, in fact that slows down the process. It is nothing like the stereo and cassette. The wave output is being channeled into a different encoded file - while still in a digital format. The output is channeled somewhere that is not the speakers.

And where is that "somewhere"? Nope, not the hard drive directly, but the sound card! Yup, it is exactly as the article explains it: "replaying a song in fast-forward and taking a copy of the audio track". And even if they are bypassing the sound card directly, that speaks even less to your "point" (and I use that term only loosely, seeing as you have no point) as that makes it directly equivalent to burning to an iso and ripping from it. You exult it in the OP as a "crack", "some one [sic!] sticking it to Apple" and then you spend most of the thread cluelessly poo-pooing the process you just celebrated in the OP!

The ignorance is delicious. Let me savour it. *mmmm, yummy*

Obviously it's not, which will come up shortly I can see.

You're blinded by your anti-Apple fanboyism, so allow me to doubt you seeing anything. Well, at least you could hear me laughing.

That seems like bullshit considering other companies that sell DRM music don't have media players and thus can't limit their DRM music to a specific player like Apple does. Apple is doing it on purpose to make it appear like people have to buy their hardware. They have been doing this for years.

I have a feeling the way they are doing things is just a simple way to tell industry assholes they're making an effort to keep people from illegally sharing music. It's not the BEST way, but it's the simplest for their purposes.

The fact that it probably helps sales of iPods doesn't hurt them too much, either.

I can't understand why anyone would use iTunes if they didn't have an iPod, snip

Not only the reasons mentioned but also because there are bands that have released itunes only versions of albums/songs while I disagree with that choice I still like to listen to their music and would LIKE to purchase the album but not have to buy an Ipod to listen to it on the go

And I'm willing to bet Fass has as well.

I don't buy off iTunes (shockingly easy not to, it seems), but I've created isos many, many times and have mounted them even more (go *nix!). It's a very trivial process.

Bwahahaha! Every single burning software out there worth the name allows you to create an iso. It's selecting an option, ticking a box. But then it seems that would be too complicated for you, but I can't help you with that - as I said, you're the only who can get that clue you are so lacking.
Creating an ISO image and burning to a virtual CD arn't the same thing. I made a DVD ISO image yesterday with a bunch of games and installer on it.


And where is that "somewhere"? Nope, not the hard drive directly, but the sound card! Yup, it is exactly as the article explains it: "replaying a song in fast-forward and taking a copy of the audio track". And even if they are bypassing the sound card directly, that speaks even less to your "point" (and I use that term only loosely, seeing as you have no point) as that makes it directly equivalent to burning to an iso and ripping from it. You exult it in the OP as a "crack", "some one [sic!] sticking it to Apple" and then you spend most of the thread cluelessly poo-pooing the process you just celebrated in the OP!
My point is your comparison was idiotic and patently false. Burning to a CD transcodes the digital audio into a format readable by media players and then playing it in a CD transmits it audible waves which are then written into a magnetic configuration a tape. Not even remotely the same as taking the output from "playing" a media file and redirecting its "standard output" to another digital file.


You're blinded by your anti-Apple fanboyism, so allow me to doubt you seeing anything. Well, at least you could hear me laughing.
I don't like Apple because (a) they have bullshit business practices which haul in lots of Microsoft hating suckers and (b) those Microsoft hating suckers can't see the forest for the trees and hail Apple as some leader in innovation and fairness. Bullshit. I would be making this same argue if Microsoft, Creative, RCA, or anyone else did it - but they arn't doing it. If any other company but Apple made software that only worked on their hardware, people would be up in arms - that's why every other company stopped doing it over a decade ago.

I don't buy off iTunes (shockingly easy not to, it seems), but I've created isos many, many times and have mounted them even more (go *nix!). It's a very trivial process.
Really? I want to see you take an iTunes song, put it on a ISO, and get an mp3 back from it. I'll even give you one to try.

And the other services which are compatible with general mp3 players, by your own admission, have a poorer library of music and poorer deals with the industry.

It's a vicious circle. If you want a wide choice of cheap, online music, it appears that you'll have to put up with the barriers the music industry erect. If you don't want to put up with these barriers, you won't have the same selection.

Thankfully people are breaking down these barriers and will make the industry innovate if the wish to remain relevant

I may not even use this technology but still like to see the pressure put on

Thankfully people are breaking down these barriers and will make the industry innovate if the wish to remain relevant
Don't count on it from Apple. Instead of breaking down and decoupling their hardware and software like every other company did over a decade ago, they have continued the same pattern and even reinforced it and then put all their money into advertising so people sit around and defend Apple's right to fuck them over.

My point is your comparison was idiotic and patently false. Burning to a CD transcodes the digital audio into a format readable by media players and then playing it in a CD transmits it audible waves which are then written into a magnetic configuration a tape. Not even remotely the same as taking the output from "playing" a media file and redirecting its "standard output" to another digital file.

Actually, conceptually, they are identical. One takes sound from source A and records it onto medium B in format C. The other takes sound from source A, records it onto medium B in format C.

Replacing the variables, One takes sound from the radio and records it onto a tape using magnetic tape. The other takes sound from a DRM protected MP3, and records it onto your computers hard drive in unprotected MP3

Don't count on it from Apple. Instead of breaking down and decoupling their hardware and software like every other company did over a decade ago, they have continued the same pattern and even reinforced it and then put all their money into advertising so people sit around and defend Apple's right to fuck them over.

Good grief, are you seriously implying that by only allowing, say, Mac OS X to run on Apple hardware that they are fucking people over? Please tell me you aren't serious.

Thankfully people are breaking down these barriers and will make the industry innovate if the wish to remain relevant

I may not even use this technology but still like to see the pressure put on

Indeed. I wasn't for a minute suggesting that I agree with the practice - I detest it - but to point out that blaming Apple for rules that they have little, if any, control over was wrong.

Don't count on it from Apple. Instead of breaking down and decoupling their hardware and software like every other company did over a decade ago, they have continued the same pattern and even reinforced it and then put all their money into advertising so people sit around and defend Apple's right to fuck them over.

Then I hope that they start to be come as irrelevant in this market as they did in the PC market after making a similar choice to stay proprietary.

Good grief, are you seriously implying that by only allowing, say, Mac OS X to run on Apple hardware that they are fucking people over? Please tell me you aren't serious.

I dont know they have screwed some people over that are trying to support their operating system by continuing to fight VMware on virtualization of their operating system

Guess what not every tech shop has the time or money to get Mac hardware in front of all their techs and as such Mac users tend to get left out in the cold at times. (not to say they wouldent with their bad adaptation of enterprise level technologies but still ...)

Guess what not every tech shop has the time or money to get Mac hardware in front of all their techs and as such Mac users tend to get left out in the cold at times. (not to say they wouldent with their bad adaptation of enterprise level technologies but still ...)

Agreed, but that's not the point I was going for. My point was that the only people Apple could potentially "screw over" are their own customers. If a business does that much, it tends to go broke. Unless, and this, I feel, is important, it can somehow affect other businesses around it in a meaningful way.

So, Apple can do all sorts of nasty things, but it'll only affect you as an individual if you buy their products. The world will keep spinning.

Agreed, but that's not the point I was going for. My point was that the only people Apple could potentially "screw over" are their own customers. If a business does that much, it tends to go broke. Unless, and this, I feel, is important, it can somehow affect other businesses around it in a meaningful way.

So, Apple can do all sorts of nasty things, but it'll only affect you as an individual if you buy their products. The world will keep spinning.
Like with my other example when they screw over their own customers they also screw over those supporting them and the companies that have to spend money to work around their shortcomings

Creating an ISO image and burning to a virtual CD arn't the same thing. I made a DVD ISO image yesterday with a bunch of games and installer on it.

Actually the principle is exactly the same: you output to the hard disk (or RAM as may be the case) what you would've outputted to an optical medium and then you rip from the image you have on your hard drive. Be the image an iso, an nrg, or some nebulous thing your refer to as a "virtual CD" (which is what an iso conceptually is - a virtual compact disc). No matter, you still don't need the €1 CDRW you were crying your little crocodile tears over.

My point is your comparison was idiotic and patently false. Burning to a CD transcodes the digital audio into a format readable by media players and then playing it in a CD transmits it audible waves which are then written into a magnetic configuration a tape. Not even remotely the same as taking the output from "playing" a media file and redirecting its "standard output" to another digital file.

Since Sarkhaan already explained it so easily, I shall just copypasta his response here:

"Actually, conceptually, they are identical. One takes sound from source A and records it onto medium B in format C. The other takes sound from source A, records it onto medium B in format C. Replacing the variables, one takes sound from the radio and records it onto a tape using magnetic tape. The other takes sound from a DRM protected MP3, and records it onto your computers hard drive in unprotected MP3."

The software doesn't use sound waves, as in actual displacements of the molecules in atmospheric gas, but it uses the exact same principle the stereo "solution" does: using the fact that it has to become unprotected sound at some stage and then capturing that sound. It still suffers loss of quality depending on where in the process it intervenes (but it's always somewhere in the unprotected sound stream), it is still the same principle nowhere near a "crack" of the DRM, but is nothing more than a simple audio exploit that's been around forever.

I don't like Apple because (a) they have bullshit business practices which haul in lots of Microsoft hating suckers and (b) those Microsoft hating suckers can't see the forest for the trees and hail Apple as some leader in innovation and fairness. Bullshit. I would be making this same argue if Microsoft, Creative, RCA, or anyone else did it - but they arn't doing it. If any other company but Apple made software that only worked on their hardware, people would be up in arms - that's why every other company stopped doing it over a decade ago.

So you're a fanboy bitching about other fanboys. Guess what, you're still a fanboy!

Really? I want to see you take an iTunes song, put it on a ISO, and get an mp3 back from it. I'll even give you one to try.

http://www.noteburner.com/

Like with my other example when they screw over their own customers they also screw over those supporting them and the companies that have to spend money to work around their shortcomings

Apologies, I may be missing the point, but surely a company which employs such dubious corporate practices should/deserves to have its "supporting companies" leave it to itself, to inevitably sink and die?

Good grief, are you seriously implying that by only allowing, say, Mac OS X to run on Apple hardware that they are fucking people over? Please tell me you aren't serious.
I'm not implying it, I'm stating it flat out. By keeping their hardware and software the linked, it limits what third parties can do for the platform and they can keep putting shit out for absurd prices.

Actually, conceptually, they are identical. One takes sound from source A and records it onto medium B in format C. The other takes sound from source A, records it onto medium B in format C.

Replacing the variables, One takes sound from the radio and records it onto a tape using magnetic tape. The other takes sound from a DRM protected MP3, and records it onto your computers hard drive in unprotected MP3
Concept and actuality are hardly ever the same thing.

Apologies, I may be missing the point, but surely a company which employs such dubious corporate practices should/deserves to have its "supporting companies" leave it to itself, to inevitably sink and die?
Depending sometimes they company is coming up through the ranks and it means a replacement cost as the Macs may have worked alright when the company was smaller but not so with a larger company and can be an insanely large bill.

Some cases you have other circumstances ... places like medical organizations give unusually large sway to some of its employees (Doctors)

Most of them would be in a better easier place if Apple developed the technology they already supposedly "implemented" and told their customers it was an option

Actually the principle is exactly the same: you output to the hard disk (or RAM as may be the case) what you would've outputted to an optical medium and then you rip from the image you have on your hard drive. Be the image an iso, an nrg, or some nebulous thing your refer to as a "virtual CD" (which is what an iso conceptually is - a virtual compact disc). No matter, you still don't need the €1 CDRW you were crying your little crocodile tears over.

And principle and actuality arn't always the same either when it comes to computers. iTunes, being a shitty piece of software, doesn't let you pick where you want to burn, and even good multimedia software won't let you 'burn' to the harddrive. Have you ever burned anything to a virtual CD? I don't mean saved a set of files in an ISO format, I mean targeted an ISO file for burning, burning as in using Nero to burn data to a CD.

The software doesn't use sound waves, as in actual displacements of the molecules in atmospheric gas, but it uses the exact same principle the stereo "solution" does: using the fact that it has to become unprotected sound at some stage and then capturing that sound. It still suffers loss of quality depending on where in the process it intervenes (but it's always somewhere in the unprotected sound stream), it is still the same principle nowhere near a "crack" of the DRM, but is nothing more than a simple audio exploit that's been around forever.
What audio exploit? If it is the same stereo CD->cassette analogy you have been using, that is not only an incorrect analogy but you have no idea what exploit means.


http://www.noteburner.com/
Here's your keyword, something you dismissed with a wave of your hand and condescending bullshit every time I brought it up.
NoteBurner converts any DRM protected music files (such as M4P, M4A, WMA, M4B) and unprotected music (WMA, MP3, rax, MP4, WAV, RA, snd, OGG, aif) to plain MP3, WAV, WMA formats with Virtual CD-RW drive.
That's what I asked for in the first place. A CD-R emulator. You cannot burn to an ISO image without mounting it into an emulator that can create a drive that mimics a R or RW drive. Also, what they are doing is not what DVD Jon's software is doing.

If you want to be a condescending ass, you may want to stick to something you understand, which obviously isn't computers.

I'm not implying it, I'm stating it flat out. By keeping their hardware and software the linked, it limits what third parties can do for the platform and they can keep putting shit out for absurd prices.

=/= "fucking people over".

Daewoo make terrible cars. I don't buy from them. Therefore they do not fuck me over.

It's really not that difficult.

And principle and actuality arn't always the same either when it comes to computers.

So, are you gonna admit you don't need the CDRW you were balling your eyes out at earlier after all, or are you gonna continue denying the obvious truth?

iTunes, being a shitty piece of software, doesn't let you pick where you want to burn,

So, you trick it. Trivially. Big whoop. You're bitching that they made their own software somewhat harder to use to circumvent their own DRM? Hilarious.

and even good multimedia software won't let you 'burn' to the harddrive.

They will allow you to output an iso. Now that's not burning with a laser onto an optical disc, but using magnets to flip bits on a magnetic disc instead, but what it all ends with is an image that you can rip from. Be the image an iso, an actual CD, a "virtual CD" (which an iso is) or whatever.

Have you ever burned anything to a virtual CD?

Yes.

I don't mean saved a set of files in an ISO format, I mean targeted an ISO file for burning, burning as in using Nero to burn data to a CD.

Seeing as "burning" is like I mentioned earlier done with a laser on an optical disc, I can't recall actually having outputted an iso directly to a CD. Usually I just create the iso or the CD image directly depending on my motives. If you are however asking if I have used software that has allowed me to output an image, be it iso or whatever format you can imagine, to my hard drive, then again, yes I have.

What audio exploit?

The exploit that consists of the fact that for your ears to hear the music it must at some stage become an unprotected audio stream. Now, where in that process you intervene makes no difference to the principle. You may record the sound waves or you may tap into the digital stream before it comes analogue, it is still the same thing in the end - not at all "cracking" the DRM but using the fact that the DRM is at some stage irrelevant as for you to hear the music it must become unprotected and then tapping into that unprotected output.

If it is the same stereo CD->cassette analogy you have been using, that is not only an incorrect analogy but you have no idea what exploit means.

You've already proved you have no idea what a "crack" is, so for you to tell me that I don't know what an "exploit" is tells me that I probably do.

Here's your keyword, something you dismissed with a wave of your hand and condescending bullshit every time I brought it up.

That's what I asked for in the first place. A CD-R emulator. You cannot burn to an ISO image without mounting it into an emulator that can create a drive that mimics a R or RW drive.


The software does exactly what you would do if you were to create an image yourself and then rip from it. In fact, the homepage you clearly failed to read states so directly: "NoteBurner installs a virtual CD-RW, it helps you burn any unprotected or DRM protected M4P, M4a, WMA music files onto the virtual CD, rips tracks on the virtual CD, encodes tracks onto MP3, WAV or WMA music files." - be the image it uses as an in-between an iso or whatever, it creates an image that it rips from. It even states so again: "NoteBurner is magic but it doesn't perform any new tricks. The revolution is that NoteBurner is automated."

It automates the entire process of outputting to an image, ripping from the image and then converting to an arbitrary format. Somehow you seem to think that because it automates the process, that the process is somehow different? It's not. It just allows you to trick iTunes into thinking the software is a real CD burner, and then the automation to imaging the CD on your hard drive and so on takes over. This can't be explained any simpler to you, nor can it be made any simpler to do. That it seems insurmountable for you to accomplish and comprehend, that can't be helped, either.

Also, what they are doing is not what DVD Jon's software is doing.

The are doing conceptually the same thing, using the same type of vulnerability and suffer very similar quality losses since they are not in any way manipulating the original file, but the unprotected output. Be it that noteburner has been around for a while and does it better and states it is doing nothing original. Where were you proclaiming how they were "finally sticking it to apple" then? Oh, that's right, you were in your clueless state crying about a dirt-cheap CDRW that you don't even need.

If you want to be a condescending ass, you may want to stick to something you understand, which obviously isn't computers.

Bwahaha, still not finding that clue, are you? No matter, fanboys seldom do. I'm not here to actually convince you that you're wrong, I've been here mostly to show others how wrong you are and having succeeded (showing both that you don't need a CD, nor that what DVD Jon has put out there is in any way original or a "crack" in any sense), I am satisfied. That you're letting your fanboyism blind you cannot be helped, and as I said is not of concern to me as you're not primarily my audience, you're just a tool/device giving me the venue to address that audience.

=/= "fucking people over".

Daewoo make terrible cars. I don't buy from them. Therefore they do not fuck me over.

It's really not that difficult.
You can't port the Mac OS to another computer, thus to use that OS you have to use Macs. And to use Macs, you have to deal with all their proprietary bullshit. They rip people off and everyone sits around excusing it while they plan a lynch mob for Microsoft. It's fucking ridiculous.

Want to use the Apple store? Use the shitty iTunes product (until Mozilla Songbird is out). Want to listen to music bought from the Apple store? Have to use iTunes or an iPod or burn it. Go somewhere else. Where? Apple has the best deal with the industry so they have music, popular music, that other sources don't have.

Hell, Apple's been trying to get rid of the DRM.
To try and make it look like they are arn't being asshats. They have the clout to say "all our music won't have DRM" but they won't do that. Because if they have open music, they can't tie it to their iPods.

sticks it to apple? why exactly does apple require sticking to on this? as i recall, they aren't the ones who demanded drm as a condition of allowing songs to be sold on itunes.

Hell, Apple's been trying to get rid of the DRM.

You can't port the Mac OS to another computer, thus to use that OS you have to use Macs. And to use Macs, you have to deal with all their proprietary bullshit. They rip people off and everyone sits around excusing it while they plan a lynch mob for Microsoft. It's fucking ridiculous.

Want to use the Apple store? Use the shitty iTunes product (until Mozilla Songbird is out). Want to listen to music bought from the Apple store? Have to use iTunes or an iPod or burn it. Go somewhere else. Where? Apple has the best deal with the industry so they have music, popular music, that other sources don't have.

Okay, let me show off my ignorance. But I know you can use a PC to run ProTools if you have a sort of Mac emulator. So doesn't this mean you have to use a Mac to use software that's made for Macs? (In that instance, though, running all the programs required AND ProTools would be killer. It'd be a lot simpler just for the power it takes to run the program and all associated plug-ins to use a Mac.)

Other sources have popular music, too, bud. If you're looking for a great selection of back-catalog, indie, or otherwise a little off the beaten track music, iTunes is it. If you want popular music, you can use a bunch of different services to legally download it.

So, are you gonna admit you don't need the CDRW you were balling your eyes out at earlier after all, or are you gonna continue denying the obvious truth?
I see you are trying to cleverly wriggle out of the fact you actually had no idea what the fuck you were talking about and just had something that did it by happenstance.

So, you trick it. Trivially. Big whoop. You're bitching that they made their own software somewhat harder to use to circumvent their own DRM? Hilarious.
No, I'm bitching their software is not customizable. And burning to a drive you pick is not circumventing DRM. :rolleyes: They made their software harder to use because they assume idiots will be using it so they leave out alot of features that some one like me would want.



They will allow you to output an iso.
I'm not sure what part of "saving files in an ISO format != burning to a virtual CD" you didn't understand when I said it the first time.

Seeing as "burning" is like I mentioned earlier done with a laser on an optical disc, I can't recall actually having outputted an iso directly to a CD. Usually I just create the iso or the CD image directly depending on my motives. If you are however asking if I have used software that has allowed me to output an image, be it iso or whatever format you can imagine, to my hard drive, then again, yes I have.
Well great, you can save files in an ISO format. Congratulations, you havn't succeeded at doing anything. And I will assume that you havn't burned anything to a virtual CD since you don't seem to even understand what I am saying.

The exploit that consists of the fact that for your ears to hear the music it must at some stage become an unprotected audio stream. Now, where in that process you intervene makes no difference to the principle. You may record the sound waves or you may tap into the digital stream before it comes analogue, it is still the same thing in the end - not at all "cracking" the DRM but using the fact that the DRM is at some stage irrelevant as for you to hear the music it must become unprotected and then tapping into that unprotected output.
That is technically correct but I seriously doubt you have an idea why or how.


You've already proved you have no idea what a "crack" is, so for you to tell me that I don't know what an "exploit" is tells me that I probably do.

Since you used 'exploit' wrong, I would say you don't.


The software does exactly what you would do if you were to create an image yourself and then rip from it. In fact, the homepage you clearly failed to read states so directly: "NoteBurner installs a virtual CD-RW, it helps you burn any unprotected or DRM protected M4P, M4a, WMA music files onto the virtual CD, rips tracks on the virtual CD, encodes tracks onto MP3, WAV or WMA music files." - be the image it uses as an in-between an iso or whatever, it creates an image that it rips from. It even states so again: "NoteBurner is magic but it doesn't perform any new tricks. The revolution is that NoteBurner is automated."
Not what DVD Jon's software does. The fact you can't understand this (and had no idea why one would need to emulate a CD-R drive) suggests you should stop being condescending about things you don't understand.

It automates the entire process of outputting to an image, ripping from the image and then converting to an arbitrary format. Somehow you seem to think that because it automates the process, that the process is somehow different? It's not. It just allows you to trick iTunes into thinking the software is a real CD burner,
Duh. That's why I asked for a CD-R emulator. No common drive emulating software creates a a virtual drive that mimics a writeable drive.


The are doing conceptually the same thing,
As I already said, concepts (and even principles) are not always the same. Just because they have the same end result does not mean they are doing the same thing. I fail to see how you understand this, though it is very likely it is because you don't understand why one would need a emulated CD-R drive.

using the same type of vulnerability
Ehhhh, wrong. The NoteBurner software exploits no vulnerability.


Where were you proclaiming how they were "finally sticking it to apple" then? Oh, that's right, you were in your clueless state crying about a dirt-cheap CDRW that you don't even need.
The fact you obviously have no idea what the fuck you are talking about and don't understand why these two softwares are different, even while outlining what they do, and still acting condescending is fucking hilarious.

Other sources have popular music, too, bud. If you're looking for a great selection of back-catalog, indie, or otherwise a little off the beaten track music, iTunes is it. If you want popular music, you can use a bunch of different services to legally download it.
Actually, it's quite the opposite. The biggest music companies are the hardest to get to deal with your service thus the most popular and hard to get tunes are only found in services like iTunes.

The fact you obviously have no idea what the fuck you are talking about and don't understand why these two softwares are different, even while outlining what they do, and still acting condescending is fucking hilarious.

The only thing hilarious here is your fanboyism and how it allows you to deny the obvious truth to yourself. As I said, you weren't my audience - I know you wouldn't admit you were wrong if you claimed the Earth flat and someone showed you images from a satellite. My audience was the people who aren't blind to see said image. But, you really should at least start looking for that clue.

The only thing hilarious here is your fanboyism and how it allows you to deny the obvious truth to yourself. As I said, you weren't my audience - I know you wouldn't admit you were wrong if you claimed the Earth flat and someone showed you images from a satellite. My audience was the people who aren't blind to see said image. But, you really should at least start looking for that clue.
You have already proven you don't understand the difference between what DVD Jon's software does and what NoteBurner does. You have practically stated you don't even understand why you need a CD-R emulator, yet NoteBurner requires one to work. And based on the previous sentence, I am positive you don't understand what I mean when I say "'burning' to a virtual CD" and thus have never done it. You have only saved the contents of a CD as an ISO or saved files in an ISO format. Etc.
You're audience must be the same uninformed saps that buy Apple because they have cool commercials.

To try and make it look like they are arn't being asshats. They have the clout to say "all our music won't have DRM" but they won't do that. Because if they have open music, they can't tie it to their iPods.

so your complaint is that apple refuses to demand drm-free music, except when they do, which isn't good enough?

To try and make it look like they are arn't being asshats. They have the clout to say "all our music won't have DRM" but they won't do that. Because if they have open music, they can't tie it to their iPods.

Wait wait wait... you're saying Apple has more clout about DRM than the entire recording industry?

so your complaint is that apple refuses to demand drm-free music, except when they do, which isn't good enough?

You've figured him out FS. :p

You're audience must be the same uninformed saps that buy Apple because they have cool commercials.

Your non-Apple-buying audience doesn't understand your argument, so...

Apple's pain and misfortune makes me lol.

TPH, seriously; stop embarassing yourself. Fass is owning you repeatedly. You are the only one who isn't seeing that.

Oh please. Fass couldn't own his way out of a wet paper bag on this topic.

He actually knows what DVD Jon's DoubleTwist does but he doesn't understand what or how that is, so it is completely happenstance that he is right, and he has no clue what the hell NoteBurner is doing, especially if he thinks it is exploiting a vulnerability in iTunes.

And ironically, there apparently is software already out that does what DVD Jon's software does (but slower), but it isn't opened to the public and thus no one has heard about it. And it's old. If Fass knew what he was talking about, and had done some better Googling, he would've pulled it out by now.

Every time someone beats you at this, you change your argument. At first Fass didn't know what the hell he was saying, but now he knows what the program does... but at the same time he doesn't?

This is getting a little ridiculous.

TPH, seriously; stop embarassing yourself. Fass is owning you repeatedly. You are the only one who isn't seeing that.
Oh please. Fass couldn't own his way out of a wet paper bag on this topic.

He actually knows what DVD Jon's DoubleTwist does but he doesn't understand what or how that is, so it is completely happenstance that he is right, and he has no clue what the hell NoteBurner is doing, especially if he thinks it is exploiting a vulnerability in iTunes.

And ironically, there apparently is software already out that does what DVD Jon's software does (but slower), but it isn't opened to the public and thus no one has heard about it. And it's old. If Fass knew what he was talking about, and had done some better Googling, he would've pulled it out by now.

NoteBurner: Emulates a writeable disc drive and therefore iTunes (and other software) is able to "burn" media to it thinking it is a normal writeable disc drive. Once that is done, the media can be "ripped" back - pretty much just copying files out of an ISO. Very few programs emulate writeable disc drives, and probably definitely no free ones.

DVD Jon's software: Interrupts some process between the reading of the digital information in the DRM file and outputting it to audio. It then takes that stream and writes it to another file. In essence, and from a high level view, it is redirecting the audio to a different file. (Which is still not like recording a song on the radio or otherwise through from audible sound.)

He knows what it does, but only by accident. He guessed correctly.
So basically, Fass was right. Where's the argument?

Every time someone beats you at this, you change your argument. At first Fass didn't know what the hell he was saying, but now he knows what the program does... but at the same time he doesn't?

This is getting a little ridiculous.
He knows what it does, but only by accident. He guessed correctly. And knowing != understanding. Conocer != comprender. He made a correct guess as to what it does, but doesn't understand why it is right, or at least not how it is right. I, on the other hand, do. Knowing the kind of technical details between point A and point B in a process is a benefit of 4 years of Computer Science.

This is getting a little ridiculous.

Getting? Oh, TPH has been like this always - owned beyond belief, but always either too blind to see it or dishonest enough not to want to admit it. I love how he's managed to distort inside his head that I was claiming that the program used a vulnerability in iTunes, when what I was claiming that both the programs were using the exact same vulnerability that exists in all DRM everywhere: the fact that the DRMed media has to become unprotected at some point, at which stage both programmes intervene and tap into this unprotected stream. Neither DVD Jon's little audiostream recording and encoding program nor NoteBurner manipulate or do away with the DRM in any way and so are not at all "cracks" - they're just glorified audio capture software that rip and encode said audio stream, but he just either doesn't get it, or... well, that's it, he just doesn't get it so he calls it a "crack".

You know what would be hilarious? Seeing him be fed to the dogs on Slashdot when they had this topic on the main page. I can be cruel, but those geeks at Slashdot are vicious against the n00bs like TPH. :D

So basically, Fass was right. Where's the argument?
He was technically right. I already gave that to him. Everything else is wrong about it.

Oh please. Fass couldn't own his way out of a wet paper bag on this topic.
You haven't been paying attention much on NSG then. Fass knows many things , notably languages and computers.

He actually knows what DVD Jon's DoubleTwist does but he doesn't[I] understand what or how that is, so it is completely happenstance that he is right, and he has no clue what the hell NoteBurner is doing, especially if he thinks it is exploiting a vulnerability in iTunes.
He's right by complete accident then? My, what a lucky guesser. Maybe Fass can give me the Powerball numbers for the week as well?

And ironically, there apparently is software already out that does what DVD Jon's software does (but slower), but it isn't opened to the public and thus no one has heard about it. And it's old. If Fass knew what he was talking about, and had done some better Googling, he would've pulled it out by now.
How is that irony? Irony is the opposite happenening of what you'd expect. How is software already being in existence that acheives the same end as DVD Jon's software ironic? That's like saying it's ironic Debian exists since Vista is an OS.

NoteBurner: Emulates a writeable disc drive and therefore iTunes (and other software) is able to "burn" media to it thinking it is a normal writeable disc drive. Once that is done, the media can be "ripped" back - pretty much just copying files out of an ISO. Very few programs emulate writeable disc drives, and probably definitely no free ones.
And oddly enough you can do it with Microsoft freeware or any number of freeware or opensource software. Do you want a list? Noteburner just streamlines the process.

DVD Jon's software: Interrupts some process between the reading of the digital information in the DRM file and outputting it to audio. It then takes that stream and writes it to another file. In essence, and from a high level view, it is redirecting the audio to a different file. (Which is still not like recording a song on the radio or otherwise through from audible sound.)
"Some process" is that the technical term? No, you are misunderstanding the article.

Let's try a new source, since Fass's repeated quotes have proven useless:
The program gets around Apple's DRM software by replaying a song in fast-forward and taking a copy of the audio track, using a process similar to that by which a CD is 'ripped' - or copied - to a computer.
http://technology.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/tech_and_web/article3403705.ece

There's no "interrupt." Let me break this down for you. The program plays the song on the computer in fast- forward. So it's legally playing the legally purchased song. Then it saves it to your computer's hard drive. Same exact thing you can already acheive for free, with Microsoft products if you prefer. The Microsoft products end up being more cumbersome; and really, why not use one program that does it all? There's nothing new or innovative about DVD Jon's program. It just gained noteriety where other's didn't.

You haven't been paying attention much on NSG then. Fass knows many things [including where the æ vs the ' is on a keyboard], notably languages and computers.
That character isn't on the english keyboard.


How is that irony? Irony is the opposite happenening of what you'd expect. How is software already being in existence that acheives the same end as DVD Jon's software ironic? That's like saying it's ironic Debian exists since Vista is an OS.
It's ironic because I didn't expect software that did anything to his software to already exist - irony :rolleyes:


And oddly enough you can do it with Microsoft freeware or any number of freeware or opensource software. Do you want a list? Noteburner just streamlines the process.
Yes, I would like a list of software that emulates a CD-R or RW drive. I asked that of Fass in the first place and it was implied that I was stupid for doing so.


"Some process" is that the technical term? No, you are misunderstanding the article.
Yes, "process" is a technical term in the computer world.

http://technology.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/tech_and_web/article3403705.ece

That's the OP source...

I can't understand why anyone would use iTunes if they didn't have an iPod, but still, good for DVD Jon. The music and film industry's unconquerable fear of piracy and unwillingness to change they way they operate will be remembered as the last mistake they ever made.

I have iTunes. On it, I have 15.73Gb of non-DRMed music. I use it because I have yet to come across a better media player. iTunes is convenient, organized, and simple. With Windows Media Player, in contrast, I am still unable to open a file (other than using the automatic ctrl+o, I still haven't figured it out). I've tried other media players, such as Winamp and MediaMonkey, but they're not nearly as organized or user-friendly.

That character isn't on the english keyboard.
I like pie. What the hell are you talking about? I'm so glad you can demonstrate your keen observation skills, but I fail to see why you bring that up. Yes, æøå aren't on American keyboards, but they're on mine. Still has nothing to do with my quip.

It's ironic because I didn't expect software that did anything to his software to already exist - irony :rolleyes:
I didn't expect Goblinux to exitst. Ironic.

No, you completely misuse the word. Unexpected =/= the complete opposite of expected. If I see a camel fall by my window that's not ironic, that's unexpected. When William Zinsser famously said "It is a fitting irony that under Richard Nixon, launder became a dirty word," He used the word correctly.

Yes, I would like a list of software that emulates a CD-R or RW drive. I asked that of Fass in the first place and it was implied that I was stupid for doing so.
Google (http://www.google.com/search?client=opera&rls=en&q=burn+iso+image+mount+to+hard+drive&sourceid=opera&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8) is such an underused tool. Too bad more people don't know about it. That's a list of the how-tos that link to software or tell you where to find it on Windows. I linked to the how-tos instead of the software directly, because you still have no idea what you are talking about.


Yes, "process" is a technical term in the computer world.
There is no process being interrupted. That's why I put it in quotes.


That's the OP source...
Sorry, copied the wrong URL.

http://www.technewsworld.com/story/61791.html?welcome=1203893749

Lucky for you I did that. So much easier to nit pick than repsond to the actual content I posted. The quote was from the correct source. Which says the same as your source. You just aren't comprehending what you are reading.

Google (http://www.google.com/search?client=opera&rls=en&q=burn+iso+image+mount+to+hard+drive&sourceid=opera&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8) is such an underused tool. Too bad more people don't know about it. That's a list of the how-tos that link to software or tell you where to find it on Windows. I linked to the how-tos instead of the software directly, because you still have no idea what you are talking about.
I asked you to find software that specifically emulates a CD-R or CD-RW drive. That is not the same as software that emulates a CD/DVD drive.
The problem with searching "burn mount iso" is you are going to get a crap that can emulate CD/DVD drives and thus mount ISOs then you will get a bunch of stuff talking about burning a ISO image to a file, not burning to a mounted ISO image.

I asked you to find software that specifically emulates a CD-R or CD-RW drive. That is not the same as software that emulates a CD/DVD drive.
The problem with searching "burn mount iso" is you are going to get a crap that can emulate CD/DVD drives and thus mount ISOs then you will get a bunch of stuff talking about burning a ISO image to a file, not burning to a mounted ISO image.

Are you talking about overwriting an existing ISO? Or burning files into an ISO? Nero works just fine for that.

TPH,

Apparently Virtual CD 9 will do it. It's not freeware, although it has a trial. You can then make your virtual CD-R drive, burn to .iso and rip to flac if you want to avoid further degradation.

This is pretty besides the point though. We shouldn't have to pay for software to listen to music we've purchased, and being that it's not open source there's no guarantee the company hasn't added some DRM protection already.

And it does affect those of us who don't buy from iTunes. The Daewoo analogy is flawed. If Daewoo brought out cheap cars that billed you extra per mile and you had to pay a grand to have the battery changed, and everyone bought one because they liked the moronic adverts and didn't work out how much more they would end up spending, almost every manufacturer would follow suit and the ones that didn't would jack up their prices. People tolerating dishonesty decreases our herd immunity, and once it hits a threshold affects us all.

Are you talking about overwriting an existing ISO? Or burning files into an ISO? Nero works just fine for that.

Any software can burn to an ISO if you can get an emulator that creates a virtual CD-R/RW drive.

And it does affect those of us who don't buy from iTunes. The Daewoo analogy is flawed. If Daewoo brought out cheap cars that billed you extra per mile and you had to pay a grand to have the battery changed, and everyone bought one because they liked the moronic adverts and didn't work out how much more they would end up spending, almost every manufacturer would follow suit and the ones that didn't would jack up their prices. People tolerating dishonesty decreases our herd immunity, and once it hits a threshold affects us all.

That's a mighty big "if" there. Theoretically, you're right. But until the day comes when Apple has a total monopoly on music (which, last time I checked, they don't), it doesn't affect those who don't shop with them.

As far as your analogy goes, you seem to be implying a ridiculous amount of hidden charges. Where are they in the current iTunes set-up? I quite like it, due to the fact that there are no hidden charges.

I have iTunes. On it, I have 15.73Gb of non-DRMed music. I use it because I have yet to come across a better media player. iTunes is convenient, organized, and simple. With Windows Media Player, in contrast, I am still unable to open a file (other than using the automatic ctrl+o, I still haven't figured it out). I've tried other media players, such as Winamp and MediaMonkey, but they're not nearly as organized or user-friendly.

Winamp has so many plug-ins and different skins that if you mod it correctly it can become vastly more organised than iTunes, ignoring the fact that you can also play with the sound to produce better quality sound much more easily, if you're nerdy like that.

That's a mighty big "if" there. Theoretically, you're right. But until the day comes when Apple has a total monopoly on music (which, last time I checked, they don't), it doesn't affect those who don't shop with them.
Sorry, the point I was trying to make is that it doesn't need a monopoly, just a userbase over a certain threshold. The cost to sell DRM-free mp3s would rocket, since labels would slash tariffs for compliant vendors as it did with iTunes, and more companies would follow suit. In the end DRM-free tracks would be rare and expensive, like multitrack recordings are today.

As far as your analogy goes, you seem to be implying a ridiculous amount of hidden charges. Where are they in the current iTunes set-up? I quite like it, due to the fact that there are no hidden charges.
You're tied to the hardware, or at least a supported proprietary OS for iTunes. I consider these hidden costs. If you were going to buy product A or run OS B anyways, and continue to purchase products from these approved vendors for as long as you want to use the media you paid for, then of course you're right. Hardware breaks and like it or not OSes become obsolete. If you want to use the media you paid for you're stuck paying to use it, whether you were going to anyway or not.

There's a possibility that the current trends in DRM (not so much in audio due to bad PR in recent years, but certainly video and especially HD video) will lead to pay-per-use media becoming the norm which is quite clearly in violation of publishing laws and against the interests of consumers. Since this argument is a speculative slippery slope I'm not going to push it. It's a concern to me, though. Since I'm not basing my argument on it, which is a good job since it's mere speculation, I'll leave it at that.

Sorry, the point I was trying to make is that it doesn't need a monopoly, just a userbase over a certain threshold. The cost to sell DRM-free mp3s would rocket, since labels would slash tariffs for compliant vendors as it did with iTunes, and more companies would follow suit. In the end DRM-free tracks would be rare and expensive, like multitrack recordings are today.

Ah, gotcha. Yes, that makes sense. This is where a leap of faith is needed - that Apple (or rather, Steve Jobs) does support DRM-free music, and isn't just doing it to look good. And as with most things, what is really needed is some good old-fashioned competition to keep things from stagnating.


You're tied to the hardware, or at least a supported proprietary OS for iTunes. I consider these hidden costs. If you were going to buy product A or run OS B anyways, and continue to purchase products from these approved vendors for as long as you want to use the media you paid for, then of course you're right. Hardware breaks and like it or not OSes become obsolete. If you want to use the media you paid for you're stuck paying to use it, whether you were going to anyway or not.

True. Fortunately, it would probably be corporate suicide if Apple decided to start charging to download iTunes, which means that on the computer side, I'm sorted. And as pointed out in the above bickering, there are reasonably simple ways to get round the DRM in the event of changing "OS". Whether or not this is fair is debatable.

True. Fortunately, it would probably be corporate suicide if Apple decided to start charging to download iTunes, which means that on the computer side, I'm sorted. And as pointed out in the above bickering, there are reasonably simple ways to get round the DRM in the event of changing "OS". Whether or not this is fair is debatable.
At present, yeah. The RIAA has however decided to claim ripping/burning for personal use is not fair use, and Vista encrypts audio streams, so these options might dry up faster than you think. Of course cracking the format is possible and even easy for some but this is illegal under the DMA as previously mentioned. Soon however this will be the only option bar low-quality analogue conversion.

Don't have an iPod, won't get an iPod.

I have Creative. hardy, longlasting and no cables required.

I meant there were larger, more compatible, cheaper, DRM-free mp3 player out there

Zune.

True. Fortunately, it would probably be corporate suicide if Apple decided to start charging to download iTunes, which means that on the computer side, I'm sorted. And as pointed out in the above bickering, there are reasonably simple ways to get round the DRM in the event of changing "OS". Whether or not this is fair is debatable.
Corporate suicide? Apple? If Apple decided to charge us for iTunes, people would defend them saying we should be glad they are charging so little to use such an awesome service and saying they would easily pay twice as much. Apple couldn't commit corporate suicide if they sold the company to a bunch of drunken hobos.

I have never found a use for much MP3 players. Whenever I do listen to music I am in my car or at my computer.