NationStates Jolt Archive

Seven Palestinians killed in Israeli Gaza raid
47 minutes ago

BUREIJ, Gaza Strip (AFP) - Seven Palestinians were killed and at least 50 wounded on Friday night when Israeli warplanes launched a raid on a building in the Hamas-run Gaza Strip, medics and witnesses said.

The Israeli aircraft targeted the home of top Islamic Jihad militant Ayman al-Fayed in the Bureij Palestinian refugee camp south of Gaza City, killing him and two of his children, a boy and a girl, they said.

A woman was among the other four dead, the medics said, adding that the fate of Fayed's wife and three other children was not known.

A military spokeswoman denied Israeli forces had attacked the house.

Around 50 people, including around 20 children, were wounded when the building was hit by a missile, the Palestinian medics added. Most were family members.

Apart from Fayed the dead and wounded were all civilians, the medics said.

The Fayed house was completely destroyed in the attack and at least 10 other houses were damaged by the blast, witnesses and an AFP correspondent said.

Emergency services were searching through the rubble to see if any people had been buried under the debris.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20080215/wl_mideast_afp/mideastconflictgazaraid_080215212001First that insurgent Commander is murdered in Syria. Now this..

I think Israel is looking for an all out war.
Probably more shit is going to happen.

I think Israel is looking for an all out war.
They'd get away with it for about 20 minutes with Hamas in Gaza, but the entire international community is kind of fed up with Israel's brinksmanship at the moment.
Probably more shit is going to happen.
Lots of airstrikes and assassination type affairs, especially of bomb and rocket makers, but I doubt that all-out war is on the cards.

I just think it's weird that the Israelis are denying it. Usually they're fairly upfront about these things, aren't they.

Still, they have the clearest motive of course. So unless this was an accident involving a bombmaker and a cigarette or something, I'd have to say they did it.

What we really need here is someone who lives in Israel who knows whether anything remarkable has happened in domestic politics which would have prompted Olmert et al to authorise the hawks in the IDF to start shooting again.

Except that it appears that there were no Israeli planes.
Could well have been Israeli planes, using precision-guided munitions. I know I probably would, were I in the IDF.

First that insurgent Commander is murdered in Syria. Now this..

I think Israel is looking for an all out war.
Probably more shit is going to happen.

Except that it appears that there were no Israeli planes.

First that insurgent Commander is murdered in Syria. Now this..

I think Israel is looking for an all out war.
Probably more shit is going to happen.

So you have a link and is there proof of Israeli involvement?

How do you raid a building with warplanes?

You take them out of their plastic packaging and run in nick the cake then run out again. That's how i would have done it.






:D

So you have a link of course.
.
and is there proof of Israeli involvement?I wanst there.

If I was, I would have Video captured the whole enchilada for you.:D You are so sweet :p

Simpler explanation: it was a rocket factory, and it blew up. That's why there are pieces of rockets all over.
Or, it was a rocket factory, that was blown up, that's why there are pieces of rockets all over.

Except that it appears that there were no Israeli planes.how do these things "appear" to you? :rolleyes:

How do you raid a building with warplanes?

Actually Yootopia, you unfixed it: although the Hezbollah guy was from Lebanon originally, he was killed in Syria.
Oh, ok.

Could well have been Israeli planes, using precision-guided munitions. I know I probably would, were I in the IDF.
Simpler explanation: it was a rocket factory, and it blew up. That's why there are pieces of rockets all over.

"First that insurgent Commander is murdered in Lebanon

Fixed."

Actually Yootopia, you unfixed it: although the Hezbollah guy was from Lebanon originally, he was killed in Syria.

First that insurgent Commander is murdered in Syria. Now this..

How can an insurgent commander be murdered?

How can you blame them when the Palestinian commanders hide among civilians and in civilian buildings?

How can an insurgent commander be murdered?

How can you blame them when the Palestinian commanders hide among civilians and in civilian buildings?

I am sure if you gave them tanks, planes and modern equipment they wouldn't need too use such tactics. How about you leave your naive ultra-moralism at home, yes?

I am sure if you gave them tanks, planes and modern equipment they wouldn't need too use such tactics. How about you leave your naive ultra-moralism at home, yes?

Oh please, they still would. Hiding in the civillian population is a calculated manouver to force Israel and others to either not attack or kill innocents when they attack, thus fueling the Islamic Radical propeganda machine.

I am sure if you gave them tanks, planes and modern equipment they wouldn't need too use such tactics.

Didn't seem to do them much good in the Israeli War of Independence.

How can an insurgent commander be murdered?There is several hundred ways.

one of them is you wait until he goes to the market, and use a car bomber, another one is you wait until he goes for a piss after diner and you use a well placed sniper on him.

Didn't seem to do them much good in the Israeli War of Independence.

......

Which has what to do with using asymmetrical tactics in warfare?

Apart from Fayed the dead and wounded were all civilians, the medics said.


As far as I know palestinians said repeatedly that there are no civilians in Izrael and that the citizens of Izrael are a legitimate target for rockets and suicide bombers whether they be in an autobus, disco, market or a cafeterie. And they behave accordingly. How come there are civilians in Gaza then?


The war will end when the palestinian mothers will love their children more than hate the jews, not sooner, not later. I don't see it happening any time soon.

The war will end when the palestinian mothers will love their children more than hate the jews, not sooner, not later. I don't see it happening any time soon.

I love it when someone quotes or paraphrases the same Golda Meir who signed the papers for Operation Wrath of God, the brilliant piece of indiscriminate "Fuck the Palestinians, Kill Them All Even If They Had Nothing to Do With Munich" revenge assassination spree to blame the Palestinians solely for the conflict.

:rolleyes:

How do you raid a building with warplanes?
With one hell of a WoW guild?

How can an insurgent commander be murdered?
By a gun to the head, knife to the chest, tiger to the throat? Any number of ways.

Just because someone has a poor attitude towards human life, doesn't mean that they themselves can't be murdered.

I just think it's weird that the Israelis are denying it. Usually they're fairly upfront about these things, aren't they.



Quite true, they're almost universally quite forward when they manage to kill someone big, or make an operation against someone important. They're style has pretty much always been to kill and tell.

......

Which has what to do with using asymmetrical tactics in warfare?

Read the post I quoted and then you will understand.

Quite true, they're almost universally quite forward when they manage to kill someone big, or make an operation against someone important. They're style has pretty much always been to kill and tell.

Which makes me believe that this was accidental.

It IS strange that Israel has not taken responsibility for this....and the rocket factory case seems very likely. I will NOT rule Israel out of this, it is possible they don't want to get bad press for this....but I just want to say I think it's pathetic that OceanDrive is soooo ready for war that he automatically blames the Israelis without considering alternative explanations.

I love it when someone quotes or paraphrases the same Golda Meir who signed the papers for Operation Wrath of God, the brilliant piece of indiscriminate "Fuck the Palestinians, Kill Them All Even If They Had Nothing to Do With Munich" revenge assassination spree to blame the Palestinians solely for the conflict.

:rolleyes:
1. That little quote speaks the truth.

2. Golda Meir knew what she was talking about. They deserved every last bit of Operation Wrath of God. Jews didn't fight back for almost 2000 years and almost faced complete extermination. The Palestinians idea of "winning" is when every Jew in Isarel is pushed into the sea. They won't win until they alter their idea of what winning means.
As far as I know palestinians said repeatedly that there are no civilians in Izrael and that the citizens of Izrael are a legitimate target for rockets and suicide bombers whether they be in an autobus, disco, market or a cafeterie. And they behave accordingly. How come there are civilians in Gaza then?


The war will end when the palestinian mothers will love their children more than hate the jews, not sooner, not later. I don't see it happening any time soon.
Speak it! Preach it! Post more!

How do you raid a building with warplanes?

This is the same country that uses attack helicopters to kill an 80 year old blind deaf man in a wheelchair at his morning prayer.

They also can't seem to capture palestinian militants and bring them to justice, but can sneak in and plant a bomb in the nearest phonebooth to his house and hope he's the next one to use it.

Israel's military playbook has always been a little weird. :p


Edit: I suspect they also have the most heavily armed and armored bulldozers in the world. ;)

This is the same country that uses attack helicopters to kill an 80 year old blind deaf man in a wheelchair at his morning prayer.

They also can't seem to capture palestinian militants and bring them to justice, but can sneak in and plant a bomb in the nearest phonebooth to his house and hope he's the next one to use it.

Israel's military playbook has always been a little weird. :p
Aye, it's a bit tragic, really. Would have thought they might have learnt the value of the whole hearts and minds element by now :(
Edit: I suspect they also have the most heavily armed and armored bulldozers in the world. ;)
http://cache.viewimages.com/xc/2067286.jpg?v=1&c=ViewImages&k=2&d=17A4AD9FDB9CF1934A2752006EF5F0EDDE98B751229098965A5397277B4DC33E

2-storey bulldozers might just win that prize, aye.

Aye, it's a bit tragic, really. Would have thought they might have learnt the value of the whole hearts and minds element by now



You would, but when you consider the US is their mentor, it all makes sense.

Which makes me believe that this was accidental.OK, so lets try to figure an "accident" scenario:

A Jewish Warplane is flying over Palestine, his GPS instruments are somehow malfunctioning, and the pilot accidentally hits the "drop bombs" switch just when he happens to be flying over a town , he goes 'oh shit' :D and is totally embarrassed.
The day after the innocent Israel Gov learns that by mistake the accidentally dropped bomb did hit the Kitchen of a top Insurgent leader. oh Damn.

What is next? The huge Spy Satellite is going to be accidentally sunken over the Bedroom of Hugo Chavez? :D

These two incidents look more like Hizb'allah killing off their own in order to find an excuse to go to war with Israel while public opinion is against Israel. I highly suspect that Tehran has something to do with this.

OK, so lets try to figure an "accident" scenario:
There are no planes anywhere, but while the rocket manufacturer is stuffing explosives into the tubes, he accidentally sets them off.
Really, this case is not very hard to figure out.

An Islamic Jihad spokesman accused Israel of targeting the house in an air strike, and vowed revenge.

Israel said it had no knowledge of a raid being carried out on the area.

Officials from Hamas, the Islamist party which last year seized the Gaza Strip from the secular Fatah party of Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas, said the cause of the blast was unclear.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7247983.stm

I doubt it was an air strike. And at this point, it could have been anything: An assassination or an accident.

Though I can't blame people for speculating if it was the Israelis, since they've been agressive in their statements lately...

Interior Minister Meir Sheetrit told The Jerusalem Post that during Sunday's cabinet meeting, he had called on the IDF to "take off its gloves," head into Gaza with armored tractors and raze an entire neighborhood from which rockets have been launched, and then withdraw. The residents of that neighborhood would be warned in advance to flee, he said.

Under international law, people have the right to defend themselves, he said.
Linky (http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1202657415850&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull)

How can you blame them when the Palestinian commanders hide among civilians and in civilian buildings?

How are they "hiding among civilians" when living openly in a refugee camp? Where would you have them live? Are you applying the same standard to, say, Lt.General Gabi Ashkenazi, demanding he should no longer hide among civilians and move out of town to the desert?

And since we're all about fair and balanced, here's what's happening on th other side:
Nine Israeli families who staked out homesteads in a valley deep in the West Bank, promised Friday to bring more settlers to the disputed area the Palestinians want for a future state, despite Israel's promises to the United States to stop settlement expansion.

Palestinian charges of bad faith over the move were fueled by reports that the Israeli government had awarded permits for more Jewish housing in a contentious east Jerusalem neighborhood.

The wildcat action at Maskiot, in the northern West Bank, was funded in part by a private U.S. group and is just one of recent Israeli actions to anger Palestinians as peace negotiators try to reach a final treaty.
The new development is especially significant because Israel announced this week that plans for an additional 350 units in the neighborhood would go ahead once the first 307 had been contracted out. Now that companies have won bids to begin construction, it seems likely the second project will go ahead, dramatically expanding the neighborhood.
About two dozen Israelis from the former Gaza Strip settlement of Shirat Hayam have moved into Maskiot despite a government decision last year to freeze plans to build a new settlement there.
While Hazut said he understood that the government had frozen construction of permanent homes at Maskiot, he said that a defense ministry official who had visited him earlier in the day Friday did not say the government would block any attempt to expand the community.

Israel's Defense Ministry oversees settlement activity. A call requesting comment from a ministry spokesman was not returned Friday.

Prime Minister Ehud Olmert's spokesman, Mark Regev, said Friday that Israel would abide by its commitments in the internationally-backed peace plan known as the "road map."

"There will be no new settlements," Regev said.
Link (http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2008/02/15/africa/ME-GEN-Israel-Settlers-Move-In.php)

As someone said: There's more than one way to fight a war.

These two incidents look more like Hizb'allah killing off their own in order to find an excuse to go to war with Israel while public opinion is against Israel. I highly suspect that Tehran has something to do with this.

explain this idiot post

You would, but when you consider the US is their mentor, it all makes sense.
Actually, I'd say that when you consider that in Germany, Hungary, etc. they kind of put up with quite a lot of shit before getting shot and/or gassed, and have no intention to let that happen to themselves again (regardless of the actual practicalities of any nation in the region being able to do so to the Israeli population), then it makes a bit of sense.

Still, not that much.

So, all we realy know is that a major Islamic Jihad militant was killed.

Israel denies it staged an attack. Israel is not a highly believable source.

Hamas claims it was Israeli warplanes. Hamas is even less reliable than Israel.

I reserve judgement pending further information.

Hamas claims it was Israeli warplanes. Hamas is even less reliable than Israel.

Have you got more recent info? Last I heard was what I posted above:

Officials from Hamas [...] said the cause of the blast was unclear.

explain this idiot post

Simple. Hizb'allah has no real power. They are nothing. Tehran pulls all the strings, gives them money and weapons. Nasrallah is nothing but a puppet, and would not do anything without tehran outlining every single detail. So when youwant to try to turn public opinion against your sworn enemy (people like to see the underdog win, in this case the poor, disadvantaged Araba against big, bad functioning democratic, technologically and socially developed Israel), you simply kill off some unimortant henchmen, and blame it on Israel. Oldest trick in the book.

you simply kill off some unimortant henchmen
The recent cases do not involve "unimportant" henchmen, far from it.

The recent cases do not involve "unimportant" henchmen, far from it.

When you have a puppet orginization, not even its head is important. If Nasrallah were to step out of line with Tehran, he would be gone in a minute.

Simple. Hizb'allah has no real power. They are nothing.
Not only are you factually wrong, but you're also off-topic.

Hezbollah wasn't involved in this case.

OK, so lets try to figure an "accident" scenario:

A Jewish Warplane is flying over Palestine, his GPS instruments are somehow malfunctioning, and the pilot accidentally hits the "drop bombs" switch just when he happens to be flying over a town , he goes 'oh shit' :D and is totally embarrassed.

How does one circumcise a plane? ;)

How does one circumcise a plane? ;)I meant to say a "Jewish Army" War plane.

I dont use the term IDF that much because we have a poster going by that name. For example I rather not say "IDF should be wiped out by the hand of Bruce" :D

Simple. Hizb'allah has no real power. They are nothing. Tehran pulls all the strings, gives them money and weapons. Nasrallah is nothing but a puppet, and would not do anything without tehran outlining every single detail. So when youwant to try to turn public opinion against your sworn enemy (people like to see the underdog win, in this case the poor, disadvantaged Araba against big, bad functioning democratic, technologically and socially developed Israel), you simply kill off some unimortant henchmen, and blame it on Israel. Oldest trick in the book.

are you sure about that?

Hizb'allah has no real power. They are nothing. etc etc etcare you sure about that?look at his posts, its like a Fortune Cookie, I wouldnt waste my time arguing with a Fortune Cookie ;)

I meant to say a "Jewish Army" War plane.

I dont use the term IDF that much because we have a poster going by that name. For example I rather not say "IDF should be wiped out by the hand of Bruce" :D
And you don't want to use the word "Israeli" because that might imply recognition of the Zionist entity? ;)

http://www.knowledgerush.com/wiki_image/b/b5/Israel_flag_large.png
http://youtube.com/watch?v=biQtrQpyJGo

As long as in the heart, within,
A Jewish soul is yearning,
And to the edges of the East, forward,
An eye watches towards Zion,

Our hope is not yet lost,
The hope of two thousand years,
To be a free nation in our own land,
The land of Zion and Jerusalem.

כל עוד בלבב פנימה
נפש יהודי הומיה,
ולפאתי מזרח קדימה,
עין לציון צופיה,

עוד לא אבדה תקוותנו,
התקווה בת שנות אלפים,
להיות עם חופשי בארצנו,
ארץ ציון וירושלים.

This conflict will not stop until Arabs get this kind of bullshit out of their minds. This kind of shit is printed normally in the media and believed by far too many Arabs:
http://www.honestreporting.com/images/cartoon5.jpg

*Snip*

Aaah, Spam :)

look at his posts, its like a Fortune Cookie, I wouldnt waste my time arguing with a Fortune Cookie ;)

You are one to talk, OD.

Anyway, I would guess that these two incidents involving "accidents" in "palestine" are connected to the puppet-masters in Tehran to try and provoke a war with Israel. Israel denies responsibility, when doing so would bolster their reputation. I never claimed to be all knowing on the subject, but this seems like a likely POSSIBILTY to me.

I don't think we (Israel) did it - The IDF always takes responsibility for its actions.
I mean, we even took responsibility for the assassination of Saleh Sh'hada, the one that got all wrong with those 14 dead (If I remember correctly).

No, this time it was their accident. The man was also in charge of the organization's rocket stock, and it won't be the first case of industrial accidents in Gaza...

I mean, we even took responsibility for the assassination of Saleh Sh'hada, the one that got all wrong with those 14 dead (If I remember correctly).


The Israeli government didn't take responsibility for the murder of Ahmed Bouchiki (an innocent) in Lillehammer

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2000/mar/02/israel

Bouchiki was assassinated as part of a covert operation by the Mossad, not by the IDF. The Palestinian territories are not in the Mossad's jurisdiction.

Besides, the man killed yesterday was indeed a terrorist, so there's no reason not to say we did it.

Bouchiki was assassinated as part of a covert operation by the Mossad, not by the IDF. The Palestinian territories are not in the Mossad's jurisdiction.
Mossad, IDF. So what? They both answer to the Israeli government.

And anyway, you yourself just said "I don't think we (Israel) did it" - we meaning the state of Israel/government of Israel. No?

How can an insurgent commander be murdered?
How can you blame them when the Palestinian commanders hide among civilians and in civilian buildings?

How can you have the nerve to turn up and ask rhetorical questions, given your 'shit and run' posting tactics in the past? Back to your bridge.


This conflict will not stop until Arabs get this kind of bullshit out of their minds. This kind of shit is printed normally in the media and believed by far too many Arabs:

Thats more to do with being occupied, brutalised and killed on a regular basis than anything else. Maybe if they fucked off to their own 1967 border there wouldnt be as much of it. Bearing your default position on immigrants in mind, I thought you'd be all for people respecting international boundaries.

Bouchiki was assassinated as part of a covert operation by the Mossad, not by the IDF. The Palestinian territories are not in the Mossad's jurisdiction.
Seeing as they've killed people as far away as South America and Canada, I don't think there's anywhere outside of their jurisdiction.

you yourself just said "I don't think we (Israel) did it" - we meaning the state of Israel/government of Israel. No?

Facts:
1. The Mossad only works abroad, not in the Palestinian territories.
2. The IDF always takes responsibility for its actions.
3. The Jihadist was killed in the Palestinian territories.
4. The IDF didn't take responsibility.

(My) conclusion:
We didn't do it.

Facts:
1. The Mossad only works abroad, not in the Palestinian territories.


That's like saying the CIA only works outside of the United States..... because they tell you so. :confused:

It's bullshit.

Seeing as they've killed people as far away as South America and Canada, I don't think there's anywhere outside of their jurisdiction.

The world is their jurisdiction. Israel itself (and the Palestinian territories) - Isn't. That's how things are.

That's like saying the CIA only works outside of the United States..... because they tell you so. :confused:

It's bullshit.

As I said, this is how I see it. You're most welcome not to agree with me. Believe me that as an IDF soldier I'd be most pleased to hear that this bastard was assassinated by us. Everyday when more rockets fall on Israeli towns I ask myself how come men like him walk around Gaza unharmed, but unfortunately industrial-accidents do happen (especially when you work with explosives), and I think this is another one.

The world is their jurisdiction. Israel itself (and the Palestinian territories) - Isn't. That's how things are.

Then it might have been Shin Bet.

Have you got more recent info? Last I heard was what I posted above:

Sorry. Meant Islamic Jihad.

Hamas I rate as being as reliable as Israel, rather than less.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vLH2DwJvL_w
Watch please, I'm tired of this back and forth, it's as futile as the leaders of Israel and the Terrorists in Gaza.

Maybe if they fucked off to their own 1967 border there wouldnt be as much of it.
As I have pointed out to you before, prior to the 1967 war there were rockets and kill-the-Jews rhetoric every day.

Thats more to do with being occupied, brutalised and killed on a regular basis than anything else. Maybe if they fucked off to their own 1967 border there wouldnt be as much of it. Bearing your default position on immigrants in mind, I thought you'd be all for people respecting international boundaries.
History is against your case....if anything, we should go back to the U.N. partition plan when Palestinians and Israelis had their own countries....but then something happend which started a WAR...oh yeah..that's right, the Arabs tried to wipe Israel off the map.

They lost.

Thus, Palestinians have no claim to anything and are lucky that they have the dirty under their feet that their standing on.

*Ohhhhh, we lost trying to totally destory you so now we're gonna complain that you're too harsh on us*

:rolleyes:

Thus, Palestinians have no claim to anything and are lucky that they have the dirty under their feet that their standing on.

The UN (including the US) begs to differ.

How can you have the nerve to turn up and ask rhetorical questions, given your 'shit and run' posting tactics in the past? Back to your bridge.



Thats more to do with being occupied, brutalised and killed on a regular basis than anything else. Maybe if they fucked off to their own 1967 border there wouldnt be as much of it. Bearing your default position on immigrants in mind, I thought you'd be all for people respecting international boundaries.

Thats ridiculous and you know it. The views of most Arabs is that Israel should give ALL 'their' land 'back'. Therefore, the solution you people propose should rather be named THE FINAL SOLUTION.

Thats ridiculous and you know it. The views of most Arabs is that Israel should give ALL 'their' land 'back'. Therefore, the solution you people propose should rather be named THE FINAL SOLUTION.

Source for this sweeping generalisation?

No? Yeah, I thought not.

Source for this sweeping generalisation?

No? Yeah, I thought not.

That's not how he rolls, silly :)

As I have pointed out to you before, prior to the 1967 war there were rockets and kill-the-Jews rhetoric every day.

Backed by the Arab states. Which is still no excuse to build colonies outside the 1967 borders. There are also peace treaties with Egypt and Jordan now.


Thus, Palestinians have no claim to anything and are lucky that they have the dirty under their feet that their standing on..

So presumably had the other lot lost, throwing them into the sea would have been fair enough?

However, your opinion that they have no claim does not make it so.

Secondly, they don't have the "dirt under their feet" as such, because Israel is still expanding in the West Bank and Arab East Jerusalem.


Therefore, the solution you people propose should rather be named THE FINAL SOLUTION...

"You people" = a full house in Bigot Bingo.

Who are these people, of whom I am being numbered?

What is this solution that I/we/teh zerg propose?

The IDF's methods may be questionable. But put yourself in their position. Isreal has almost been in a state of constant warfare since its creation in the late 1940's (The nation was founded from British ruled Palsatine.) The insurgent commanders DO use human sheilds. And there is not much the Isrealis can do about it. Isreal has constantly been attacked for near on 60 years, and after that length of time, I think they would do EVERYTHING and ANYTHING to defend themselves.

Once again, put yourself if the insurgents position,

They are facing a well armed enemy, armed by the US, UK and other European nations. The IDF is vastly superior to the insurgents. They cannot win in a outright fight. So they HAVE to use dirty tactics. Seems to me Isreal now operate the same policy

Besides, 9 times out of 10 the Isrealis say if they have done something.

Backed by the Arab states. Which is still no excuse to build colonies outside the 1967 borders. There are also peace treaties with Egypt and Jordan now.



So presumably had the other lot lost, throwing them into the sea would have been fair enough?

However, your opinion that they have no claim does not make it so.

Secondly, they don't have the "dirt under their feet" as such, because Israel is still expanding in the West Bank and Arab East Jerusalem.



"You people" = a full house in Bigot Bingo.

Who are these people, of whom I am being numbered?

What is this solution that I/we/teh zerg propose?

Ask Ocean Drive....he said that they should give ALL the land back....ALL, the whole tamale....or some BS like that, as I remember. Someone suggested perhaps the 7 million Israelis should go under the sea, and another of the AllahBorg found it to be a good idea. Plus, Iran wants to wipe out Israel, as does Hamas.....enough for you???

Ask Ocean Drive....he said that they should give ALL the land back....ALL, the whole tamale....or some BS like that, as I remember. Someone suggested perhaps the 7 million Israelis should go under the sea, and another of the AllahBorg found it to be a good idea. Plus, Iran wants to wipe out Israel, as does Hamas.....enough for you???
And you somehow manage to equate "Israel should go back to the 1967 borders" to mean "Israel should give up all the land and cease to exist"... Interesting logic.

Backed by the Arab states. Which is still no excuse to build colonies outside the 1967 borders. There are also peace treaties with Egypt and Jordan now.



So presumably had the other lot lost, throwing them into the sea would have been fair enough?

However, your opinion that they have no claim does not make it so.

Secondly, they don't have the "dirt under their feet" as such, because Israel is still expanding in the West Bank and Arab East Jerusalem.



"You people" = a full house in Bigot Bingo.

Who are these people, of whom I am being numbered?

What is this solution that I/we/teh zerg propose?

Oh noes, someone who supports the Palestinian 'resistance' tactics of terrorism and racism towards jews is accusing me of bigotry. EGAD!

And you somehow manage to equate "Israel should go back to the 1967 borders" to mean "Israel should give up all the land and cease to exist"... Interesting logic.

NOT go back to the borders, he meant give ALL the land back, the entire land of Israel....it was the thread on the US asking Egypt to keep the borders closed. Look it up if you don't believe me...he said that the only solution that would work is if it gave ALL the land back....he then clearly went on to clarify that he means the entire land of Israel, since the Jews went on a diaspora.....

Interesting.....Yes, I thought so too. It really sound like a FINAL SOLUTION

Wipe of the map I attributed to Hamas and Iran only..

logic....I'm getting this from the fanaticism sympathizer?

NOT go back to the borders, he meant give ALL the land back, the entire land of Israel....it was the thread on the US asking Egypt to keep the borders closed. Look it up if you don't believe me...he said that the only solution that would work is if it gave ALL the land back....he then clearly went on to clarify that he means the entire land of Israel, since the Jews went on a diaspora.....

Interesting.....Yes, I thought so too. It really sound like a FINAL SOLUTION

Wipe of the map I attributed to Hamas and Iran only..

logic....I'm getting this from the fanaticism sympathizer?

I'm starting to question your ability to read. First, Nodinia - whom you responded to - made no such claim, and in the Border Breach thread (which I followed) I never saw him make the claim you accuse him of either. OD may be a different story... but you do have a tendency to lump people together, don't you...

And how you manage to paint me as a fanaticism sympathizer I'll never know. I won't inquire either, I would just advice you to double-check any medication you're currently on, because you seem to be having a very strange day...

Therefore, the solution you people propose should rather be named THE FINAL SOLUTION.Source for this sweeping generalisation?

No? Yeah, I thought not.I'm starting to question your ability to read. First, Nodinia - whom you responded to - made no such claim, and in the Border Breach thread (which I followed) I never saw him make the claim you accuse him of either. OD may be a different story... but you do have a tendency to lump people together, don't you...

And how you manage to paint me as a fanaticism sympathizer I'll never know. I won't inquire either, I would just advice you to double-check any medication you're currently on, because you seem to be having a very strange day...Waztakan was clearly losing his dabate against Nodinia,

thats is why he started pulling this Bullshit: Trying to somehow bring the Hollocaust words "Final Solution" into the debate.. and the other emergency words "OD says".. or "Iran-wipe-out-Israel"

_________________________________
OPEN LETTER TO Waztakan:

For the record I never said the Jews must die (I rather they live happy and peaceful) or go under the sea, AhmedJihad never said he will wipe out Israel,

My opinions belongs to me and If you really want to -intelligently- debate my points, the door is always open..

just dont try to bring Nodinia/Gravlen/etc POVs into the mix, unless they want to take part in the debate, and especially respect our differences of opinion, we are individuals.

just dont try to bring Nodinia/Gravlen/etc POVs into the mix, unless they want to take part in the debate, and especially respect our differences of opinion, we are individuals.

:)


I'm not!

For the record I never said the Jews must die (I rather they live happy and peaceful) or go under the sea, AhmedJihad never said he will wipe out Israel,


Yet another entirely unclever name pun...you are so fucking funny OD, so fucking funny. :rolleyes:

Oh, and the famed "wipe Israel off of the map" quote, which so many hold so many objections to is only translated as such by one source: The Iranian government. Specifically, the President's office and the Islamic Republic News Agency translate this turn of phrase as such, not any of the pro-Israel translators, not even MEMRI.

From Wikipedi. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahmoud_Ahmadinejad_and_Israel#.22Wiped_off_the_page_of_time.22_translation)

In a June 11, 2006 analysis of the translation controversy, New York Times deputy foreign editor Ethan Bronner stated that Ahmadinejad had said that Israel was to be wiped off the map. After noting the objections of critics such as Cole and Steele, Bronner said: "But translators in Tehran who work for the president's office and the foreign ministry disagree with them. All official translations of Mr. Ahmadinejad's statement, including a description of it on his Web site (www.president.ir/en/), refer to wiping Israel away. Bronner stated: "..it is hard to argue that, from Israel's point of view, Mr. Ahmadinejad poses no threat. Still, it is true that he has never specifically threatened war against Israel. So did Iran's president call for Israel to be 'wiped off the map'? It certainly seems so. Did that amount to a call for war? That remains an open question."[14]

A synopsis of Mr Ahmadinejad's speech on the Iranian Presidential website states:

He further expressed his firm belief that the new wave of confrontations generated in Palestine and the growing turmoil in the Islamic world would in no time wipe Israel away.

Ask Ocean Drive....he said that they should give ALL the land back....ALL, the whole tamale....or some BS like that, as I remember. Someone suggested perhaps the 7 million Israelis should go under the sea, and another of the AllahBorg found it to be a good idea. Plus, Iran wants to wipe out Israel, as does Hamas.....enough for you???

Whats that got to do with me or anything I stated? And I'm unsure how an atheist Irish Republican is supposed to be associated with the "AllahBorg".


Oh noes, someone who supports the Palestinian 'resistance' tactics of terrorism and racism towards jews is accusing me of bigotry. EGAD!???

I've never supported racism against anyone, thanks bunches. "Israeli" is a nationality and I've never advocated blanket action against its citizens either. Quote me or withdraw.

NOT go back to the borders, he meant give ALL the land back, the entire land of Israel....it was the thread on the US asking Egypt to keep the borders closed. Look it up if you don't believe me...he said that the only solution that would work is if it gave ALL the land back....he then clearly went on to clarify that he means the entire land of Israel, since the Jews went on a diaspora.....

Interesting.....Yes, I thought so too. It really sound like a FINAL SOLUTION

Wipe of the map I attributed to Hamas and Iran only..

logic....I'm getting this from the fanaticism sympathizer?

I always say 1967 borders and I say 1967 borders cause its those borders I mean. I suggest you again quote me or withdraw.

:)


I'm not!

No, you are all part of the "oh noes....did you hear about the cartoonist who was almost killed....

HE OFFENDED the ALLAHBORG!!!"-Collective

Waztakan was clearly losing his dabate against Nodinia,

thats is why he started pulling this Bullshit: Trying to somehow bring the Hollocaust words "Final Solution" into the debate.. and the other emergency words "OD says".. or "Iran-wipe-out-Israel"

_________________________________
OPEN LETTER TO Waztakan:

For the record I never said the Jews must die (I rather they live happy and peaceful) or go under the sea, AhmedJihad never said he will wipe out Israel,

My opinions belongs to me and If you really want to -intelligently- debate my points, the door is always open..

just dont try to bring Nodinia/Gravlen/etc POVs into the mix, unless they want to take part in the debate, and especially respect our differences of opinion, we are individuals.

Open Question to Bigot:

Okay, what did you mean by the retreat of Israel from ALL of Israel. Please, lets clarify this.

No, you are all part of the "oh noes....did you hear about the cartoonist who was almost killed....

HE OFFENDED the ALLAHBORG!!!"-Collective

Prove it.

No, you are all part of the "oh noes....did you hear about the cartoonist who was almost killed....

HE OFFENDED the ALLAHBORG!!!"-Collective

If English isn't your first language, then fair enough.

But if English is your first language..... jesus, really? You've just thrown random words into a sentence, that now makes no sense whatsoever.

I think you're trying to make two or three points there, but none of them are coming across in that garbled nonsense.

I always say 1967 borders and I say 1967 borders cause its those borders I mean. I suggest you again quote me or withdraw.

When discussing the pre-1967 borders, I feel it's appropriate that we do, indeed admit that post-war borders, even in stalemated conflicts, like the Korean War, are rarely returned to how they were before the war. In Korea, for example, the United Nations forces managed to seize a superior defensive position, roughly around the 38th Paralell, but this border was not a straight cut line, it gave and took based on the realities of the terrain and the tactical situation on the ground at signing of the Armistice.

I feel that the 1967 borders have been made less relevant by events which have transpired since then, but rather a smart system to provide for the real political and demographic changes that have occurred in the border region.

I do not know how such a reevaluation would turn out, and I cannot say who would receive the greater benefit. But I don't feel that the 1967 Borders can accurately reflect the current situation on the ground, over forty years later.

the famed "wipe Israel off of the map" quote, which so many hold so many objections to is only translated as such by one source: The Iranian government. Specifically, the President's office and the Islamic Republic News Agency translate this turn of phrase as such.

www.president.ir/en/

I have looked all over your link (provided by wiki) and I found nowhere it says what you claim it says, president-office/Iranian-Gov link you provided, in no way -shape or form- confirm your "Lets destroy Israel" Lies.

There is nothing in the Iranian/Presidential Link you presented that support your delusional allegations.

Open Question to Bigot:

Okay, what did you mean by the retreat of Israel from ALL of Israel. Please, lets clarify this.Open response to the real BIGOT Anti-Semite (whoever that is) ;)

I stand by my statement.
and if you cant understand English, try this http://www.merriam-webster.com/

good luck.

I have looked all over your link (provided by wiki) and I found nowhere it says what you claim it says, president-office/Iranian-Gov link you provided, in no way -shape or form- confirm your "Lets destroy Israel" Lies.

There is nothing in the Iranian/Presidential Link you presented that support your delusional allegations.

Bro, you clearly didn't look anywhere near hard enough.

But, if you insist Here's the link to the press release pertaining to the speech from Ahmadinejad's presidential website. (http://www.president.ir/eng/ahmadinejad/cronicnews/1384/08/4/index-e.htm#b2)

No MEMRI, AP or Mossad mistranslations are possible, because this was done by none other than the Iranian government. It's in the Ahmadinejad: Supporters of Israel will face wrath of Islamic ummah section, on the sixth line, if you'd please.

Bro, you clearly didn't look anywhere near hard enough.

But, if you insist Here's the link to the press release pertaining to the speech from Ahmadinejad's presidential website. (http://www.president.ir/eng/ahmadinejad/cronicnews/1384/08/4/index-e.htm#b2)

No MEMRI, AP or Mossad mistranslations are possible, because this was done by none other than the Iranian government. It's in the Ahmadinejad: Supporters of Israel will face wrath of Islamic ummah section, on the sixth line, if you'd please.this?

He further expressed his firm belief that the new wave of confrontations generated in Palestine and the growing turmoil in the Islamic world would in no time wipe Israel away.

He is acknowledging the recent confrontations in Lebanon and Palestine, and he is saying "they (Zionists) are attacking Palestinians, they are starting this conflicts, but at the end Palestine(and their supporters) shall win"

this?



He is acknowledging the recent confrontations in Lebanon and Palestine, and he is saying "they (Zionists) are attacking Palestinians, they are starting this conflicts, but at the end Palestine(and their supporters) shall win"

As the releases title reads: Supporters of Israel will face wrath of Islamic ummah.

He's talking about a general conflict with the wider Islamic Ummah, not just the Palestinians, and the Ummah includes not only the Palestinians, but also the Iranians. That would seem to be quite a threat, if I were in the Israeli position.

Usually I don't particularly like people who embrace the promise of a general conflict, but maybe that's just me being an eb1L n3O-N4z1-KKK0n5eRvu7i\/3.

Usually I don't particularly like people who embrace the promise of a general conflict...Thats funny, from your posting history, I perceived you as someone who voted for the War Party, someone who voted for Bush. I guess I was wrong ;)

>> me going AFK, shall be back tomorrow >>

Thats funny, from your posting history, I perceived you as someone who voted for the War Party, someone who voted for Bush. I guess I was wrong ;)

Bluster and obfuscation.

What I once believed, and how I once voted, is irrelevant. Three and a half years of maturation and education has had a significant impact on what I believe and how I vote. My "youthful indiscretion" was voting for George W. Bush in 2004, at the age of 18. That is done and over with.

It doesn't change the fact that Ahmadinejad has been using the language of warfare and violence in the (already turbulent) world of Middle Eastern politics. It does not change the fact that he believes in the inevitability of a major, general conflict, and that holding such a belief is, in many ways, a sort of self-fulfilling prophecy.

When discussing the pre-1967 borders(......)receive the greater benefit.[/U] But I don't feel that the 1967 Borders can accurately reflect the current situation on the ground, over forty years later.

Suffice to say that there should be a negotiated settlement of final borders, but until the time they are finalised, Israel should withdraw behind the green line. Currently its using its presence to annex by building (in the West Bank) and reduce the Arab population of East Jerusalem.