NationStates Jolt Archive

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7247470.stm
BBC news article suggesting

Smokers could be forced to pay £10 for a permit to buy tobacco if a government health advisory body gets its way.

Forest spokesman Simon Clark said that when the cost of administration, extra bureaucracy and enforcement are taken into account, "the mind boggles".

He added that the people most affected by the proposals would be "the elderly and people on low incomes".

Mr Clark added: "The senior government advisor putting this idea forward is not only adding to the red tape and bureaucracy we already have in this country.

After reading this article, I decided to look through old NSG threads on Smoking and cigarettes, (I took about 1 ½ hours searching for the better threads, and there were alot of threads).
So for those who are interested in what the past posters have said here they are.

1) How to quit smoking, is taxes helping? Not much information, mostly short comments, quite short thread. 3 pages in total
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=529705&highlight=Cigarrettes

2) Who smokes and why, within NSG, only really kicks off by page 5. 10 pages in total
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=502267&highlight=Cigarrettes

3) Another thread about who smokes in NSG, kicks off about page 6. 9 pages in total.
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=490933&highlight=Cigarrettes

4) Time to ban smoking, according to this OP, but I’ve seen some good arguments to support smoking here. Kicks off from about page 1, pretty good thread. Pages in total 9.
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=471428&highlight=Cigarrettes

5) Another thread on whether smoking should be banned or not. Kicks off about page 2, but flames take over from roughly page 16 onward. Pages in total 23.
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=436109&highlight=Cigarrettes

6) Another thread on, whose rights are more important, Kicks off about page 2ish, not bad. Pages in total 5
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=437125&highlight=Cigarrettes

7) Thread on what your government has done against smoking, kicks off from page 2, interesting debate, not bad. Pages in total 10
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=422293&highlight=Cigarrettes

8) Thread on age of smoking, starts from page 1, not much information. Pages in total 3. Quite short.
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=383412&highlight=Cigarrettes

9) Smoking thread, not bad. Starts about page 2, pages in total 10, also has something about MOD conspiracy, don’t ask me why.
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=452291&highlight=ciggarettes

10) Smoking in public places thread, kicks off about page 1, pretty good debate throughout. Total pages 7.
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=451366&highlight=ciggarettes

I understand that not everyone is going to read through all these links, but they're there for those who wish to look back, and there are some good reasons for and against smoking bans.

So i ask you, is this licence to smoke a good idea?

£10 permit?

About 2 packs of twenty. Worth it. Bit of a pain in the arse, though.

*edits*

The whole 'extra beaurocracy' bit is actually a not-bad point. I wonder how much of this £10 the government will lose due to waste in offices, and I also wonder how much they'll lose through a loss of tobacco revenues.

Ah well.

Not to mention, isn't it more cost-effective from a bureaucratic standpoint to merely add or raise a surtax on the product? Why a whole new bureaucracy?

Hell no!

A permit to buy tobacco? Will you need a permit to buy alcohol next? Or gas? Or bread?

What a bunch of shit!

*lights ciggy*

£10 permit?

About 2 packs of twenty. Worth it. Bit of a pain in the arse, though.

*edits*

The whole 'extra beaurocracy' bit is actually a not-bad point. I wonder how much of this £10 the government will lose due to waste in offices, and I also wonder how much they'll lose through a loss of tobacco revenues.

Ah well.

Sounds like a load of crap to me.

Ach, our cigarette prices are already almost the highest in Europe, raising the duties even more would be utter tragedy.

How much is it per pack? I can get L&M cigarettes for 3 bucks, and Marlboro's for a little over 4 (like 4.25 ish..) where I live.

it seems like a very useless permit designed only to create more government bureaucracy.

Big Brother will now decide for you if you should be allowed to smoke or not.

WAR IS PEACE
FREEDOM IS SLAVERY
IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH

Not to mention, isn't it more cost-effective from a bureaucratic standpoint to merely add or raise a surtax on the product? Why a whole new bureaucracy?
Ach, our cigarette prices are already almost the highest in Europe, raising the duties even more would be utter tragedy.

Ach, our cigarette prices are already almost the highest in Europe, raising the duties even more would be utter tragedy.

But a $22 (sorry, no "pound" symbol close at hand) license to smoke could just as easily be a 10p NHS-directed tax per pack and achieve what I'm assuming is the same effect -- generating income from those who smoke to help fund the NHS as it takes care of eventual lung-cancer/high blood pressure-related ailments.

But a $22 (sorry, no "pound" symbol close at hand) license to smoke could just as easily be a 10p NHS-directed tax per pack and achieve what I'm assuming is the same effect -- generating income from those who smoke to help fund the NHS as it takes care of eventual lung-cancer/high blood pressure-related ailments.

Exactly. That'd mean less money wasted on admin too. Don't exactly need an office full of people to organise an NHS tax on smoking.

Big Brother will now decide for you if you should be allowed to smoke or not.

WAR IS PEACE
FREEDOM IS SLAVERY
IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH

Okay, agreed, but why should non-smokers pony up for a voluntary health-threatening activity? Perhaps instead of a license, proof of medical insurance over and above the coverage NHS provides. Special smokers' policies, perhaps? Hell, I'm sure insurance companies would be faunching at the bit to offer up "vice insurance" packages to smokers, the morbidly obese, condom refusers...as long as there's a profit in it for the insurer, they'll write the policy.

How much is it per pack? I can get L&M cigarettes for 3 bucks, and Marlboro's for a little over 4 (like 4.25 ish..) where I live.
A pack of 20 Marlboro Lights is between 5 and 6 pounds. Which is like 10 to 12 bucks.

Big Brother will now decide for you if you should be allowed to smoke or not.

WAR IS PEACE
FREEDOM IS SLAVERY
IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH

Maybe you're right, but do you really think it's possible for the UK or any other country to become a big brother state?

it seems like a very useless permit designed only to create more government bureaucracy.

Good point, but is there nothing that appeals to you about this? Preventing people from smoking.
Would there be the same response if they decided to put a licence on buying alcohol?
Hell no!

A permit to buy tobacco? Will you need a permit to buy alcohol next? Or gas? Or bread?

What a bunch of shit!

*lights ciggy*
Again i understand your position, i would be horrified if i had to have a licence to buy bread.
But is this a different case because it's a chemical that can potentially damage people?

Not to mention, isn't it more cost-effective from a bureaucratic standpoint to merely add or raise a surtax on the product? Why a whole new bureaucracy?
True, but perhaps the Cigar companies don't like the sound of that, so they tried to come up with a compromise is my guess.

£10 permit?

About 2 packs of twenty. Worth it. Bit of a pain in the arse, though.

*edits*

The whole 'extra beaurocracy' bit is actually a not-bad point. I wonder how much of this £10 the government will lose due to waste in offices, and I also wonder how much they'll lose through a loss of tobacco revenues.

Ah well.
Hmmm wasted money is not an enticing prospect.
I'm beginning to feel that this is only trying to be put through so the government looks like it can achieve something, and not really address the main issues.
But still, is there a better way to reduce smoking?

Licensing schemes are expensive, both to implement AND enforce...how much of that money would actually benefit the NHS at all? Very little I'd imagine. I'm not sure why anyone would see it is necessary. ID is already generally required in order to buy cigarettes, if it's an issue of age. Claiming that introducing a roadblock is a good goal in and of itself is idiotic. As 'quit smoking' strategies go, this is definitely one of the stupidest I've seen.

But a $22 (sorry, no "pound" symbol close at hand) license to smoke could just as easily be a 10p NHS-directed tax per pack and achieve what I'm assuming is the same effect -- generating income from those who smoke to help fund the NHS as it takes care of eventual lung-cancer/high blood pressure-related ailments.
They raise the duties on cigarettes about 10p a year with duties anyway, just as they raise wine prices about 4 or 5p a bottle. I don't see how this is going to help out much more, seeing as duties bring in more direct taxes.

Big Brother will now decide for you if you should be allowed to smoke or not.
Nanny state, yes, big brother, no.

This is also basically a ploy to make it look like New Labour cares, and to please quite a large segment of society that doesn't like smoking at all. Since the pro-smoking lobby is essentially dead, this is going to get passed, and that's all there is to it.

But still, is there a better way to reduce smoking?
Put live Daddy Longlegs' in each box of cigarettes. Those things freak the hell out of me, anyway :p

Not sure what the ALF would say about it, mind :p

Good point, but is there nothing that appeals to you about this? Preventing people from smoking.
Would there be the same response if they decided to put a licence on buying alcohol?

no i dont see any benefit in this except to the people working in the licensing bureau.

is there some adult who is going to be disallowed a permit?

no i dont see any benefit in this except to the people working in the licensing bureau.

is there some adult who is going to be disallowed a permit?
I dunno, maybe they'll make people run a test.

Example theory question :

"Roll-ups should be flicked -

a) Never
b) With the thumb, to the filter
c) With the finger, above the filter
d) By shaking the whole hand"


The practise exam would probably involve timed rolling attempts, to exacting standards (no more than 10% deviation from the filter tip to the end of the rollup, for example).

no i dont see any benefit in this except to the people working in the licensing bureau.

is there some adult who is going to be disallowed a permit?

Could be, as the article says the tax would put smokers off buying this permit. So wouldn't be able to smoke, i think the idea is to put people off buying the permit, thus stopping them from buying ciggies. Also considering the UK's general lameability to stand up to government decisions it could be passed.

Although i can see it's merit in stopping smoking, i think it's trying to brush over the government failure's in foreign policy, masses of personal information lost. With the one thing that lots of the voting public seem to think is the main issue, when in reality i think it's far from it.

Licensing schemes are expensive, both to implement AND enforce...how much of that money would actually benefit the NHS at all? Very little I'd imagine. I'm not sure why anyone would see it is necessary. ID is already generally required in order to buy cigarettes, if it's an issue of age. Claiming that introducing a roadblock is a good goal in and of itself is idiotic. As 'quit smoking' strategies go, this is definitely one of the stupidest I've seen.

Do you know if it's been tried before?

Could be, as the article says the tax would put smokers off buying this permit. So wouldn't be able to smoke, i think the idea is to put people off buying the permit, thus stopping them from buying ciggies. Also considering the UK's general lameability to stand up to government decisions it could be passed.

Although i can see it's merit in stopping smoking, i think it's trying to brush over the government failure's in foreign policy, masses of personal information lost. With the one thing that lots of the voting public seem to think is the main issue, when in reality i think it's far from it.

Oh come on, people are going to smoke without a permit. What is going to happen to them if they don't? Is someone seriously gong to arrest you if you don't have a permit? I'd mock the hell out of the law, and the cop, or whiny anti-smoking-fascists and smoke anyway.

Also, what about tourists? Would they need to buy a permit?

This whole plan is a waste-it only benefits the people working in the permit office.


@Yootopia: 10-12 bucks a pack?! Holy shit...That is much as I spend on a weeks worth of cigs (2-3 packs...) Damn....


edit: also, who cares if people smoke? Its their choice. In some of the previous smoking threads I seem to recall seeing that smokers cost the Britain's NHS less money than nonsmokers....

Oh come on, people are going to smoke without a permit. What is going to happen to them if they don't? Is someone seriously gong to arrest you if you don't have a permit? I'd mock the hell out of the law, and the cop, or whiny anti-smoking-fascists and smoke anyway.

Also, what about tourists? Would they need to buy a permit?

This whole plan is a waste-it only benefits the people working in the permit office.


@Yootopia: 10-12 bucks a pack?! Holy shit...That is much as I spend on a weeks worth of cigs (2-3 packs...) Damn....

True the impracticalities have been pointed out, and i can see why it would be unpopular.
But maybe it's not meant to reduce smoking in the UK as such, only to make the government look good. Even the psychology of having to get a new permit might put people off smoking, again the government trying to appease the voters evading the bigger more important issues.

True the impracticalities have been pointed out, and i can see why it would be unpopular.
But maybe it's not meant to reduce smoking in the UK as such, only to make the government look good. Even the psychology of having to get a new permit might put people off smoking, again the government trying to appease the voters evading the bigger more important issues.

That last part seems most likely!

@Yootopia: 10-12 bucks a pack?! Holy shit...That is much as I spend on a weeks worth of cigs (2-3 packs...) Damn....
The cost of living in the UK is pretty high in general, but aye, cigarettes are fairly costly here by anyone's standards (unless you're Norwegian).
edit: also, who cares if people smoke? Its their choice.
Plenty of people, seemingly.
In some of the previous smoking threads I seem to recall seeing that smokers cost the Britain's NHS less money than nonsmokers....
No, they don't at all, but they pay a lot of that back with cigarette duties.

Think-tanks. Yuck. In any case, I can't see what this would really achieve that could not be achieved by increasing the tobacco duty - which they do at above inflationary rates every year, I think.

A pack of 20 Marlboro Lights is between 5 and 6 pounds. Which is like 10 to 12 bucks.
holy shit. $7.20 is bad enough here. Good thing I have a bro in NC

Don't want my thread to die.
Does anyone support this at all?

Don't want my thread to die.
Does anyone support this at all?
Nope. Not unless Big Brother recently got an account here!:p

Is it just me or is the British Government taxing ANYTHING? If theres something that can be taxed but isn't you can tell that the government haven't got round to taxing it yet.

Is it just me or is the British Government taxing ANYTHING? If theres something that can be taxed but isn't you can tell that the government haven't got round to taxing it yet.

I know what you mean. They love their taxes, ironically by raising taxes they'l get less money, as people start to refuse to pay them. It's pretty tempting to just not bother paying taxes now.

I already have a smoking license: It's my identity card which states I'm old enough to buy and consume tobacco.

So screw that idiocy. What's gonna be next? A license to breathe?!?

The more people smoke, the less their healthcare costs me. It's the non-smoking, non-obese that I end up having to pay for out of my taxes. So please, light up on the way to McDonald's and don't forget to super size it. :D

In all seriousness, smoking is a personal choice and people have to right to do it as long as it doesn't impact the rest of us. The no smoking in the work place and in building laws are good. Someone smoking in their own home or on the side walk doesn't affect me. People shouldn't be forced to be healthy. A license to smoke is too big brother.

A permit? Why, so they can be assured that I really know how to smoke?

A permit? Why, so they can be assured that I really know how to smoke?

You should send the government a letter, with cigarette ashes in it, and say "this is what will become of our democracy if you pollute it any further, ashes to ashes dust to dust".

So not a good idea this license is.

The more people smoke, the less their healthcare costs me. It's the non-smoking, non-obese that I end up having to pay for out of my taxes. So please, light up on the way to McDonald's and don't forget to super size it. :D

All those unhealthly activities are perfect for killing off people before they reach old age and really start draining the healthcare coffers