NationStates Jolt Archive

Apparently, Equatorial Guinea has surged to becoming one of the top 10 GDP per capita countries at $50,200. How is this possible? A booming oil industry and only 500,000 people. At first I thought it was a miscalculation, but it is in fact true. A lot of it IS going into select pockets, but EG personal incomes are on the rise. Even if connected people take a lot, some does certainly trickle down...

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/ek.html (Says $44,100, but other sources say as high as $50,200).










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Well, could you imagine an over $50,000 GDP per capita country with a life expectancy of 50 years?

Wow. We know where the next Dubai will be.

On paper. Its citizenry is actually dirt poor.

From what I've heard, the money makes it into the select few hands, but nobody elses.

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Coincidentally, the largest private employer in Africa.

...which to me speaks volumes, and not good ones.

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Is your misuse of the word, 'buy' in that sentence unintentional, or is it a fiendish subliminal message?
dammit! It's worked! Now I have to go buy some coke. damn you!

As for the fact regarding the per capita income - why do I have the suspicion that average annual income is prob $1000 for 499000 Equatorial Guineans and $25000000pa for the other 1000.

Life expectancy of 50 years and a median age of 18-19? Yeah, none of that is trickling anywhere near the people.

I wonder what the GDP per cpaita is in Wakanda (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wakanda_(Marvel))? ;)

GDP per capita tends to be a good indicator of quality of life, but not the rule - especially in Equatorial Guinea which had a massive gap between GDP and standard of living when the GDP per capita was only $10,000. As far as African countries go its HDI rating is somewhere in the middle, which is not saying much when talking about Africa.

Apparently, Equatorial Guinea has surged to becoming one of the top 10 GDP per capita countries at $50,200. How is this possible? A booming oil industry and only 500,000 people. At first I thought it was a miscalculation, but it is in fact true. A lot of it IS going into select pockets, but EG personal incomes are on the rise. Even if connected people take a lot, some does certainly trickle down...

If the government (how did those people get to be the government is irrelevant) doesn't need to taxes of the citizens, but instead have more than enough income from oil, gold or some other resource, it doesn't need to care how do the average people live. It spends some money on the army to ensure it stays in power, it spends on the palaces but the rest of the country can go to hell.

If on the other hand the only money the government has are the ones they got by taxing the average Joe it needs to care. It needs to help the average Joe to earn enough so that the absolute value of the taxes is big enough.

I'd rather pay the government than to be totally irrelevant to it.

Rhodesia :D ?

Oil reserves or other natural resources are often bad to average people
especially if they drink them.

So this entire measure means absolutely nothing except that oil makes you rich?

If the government (how did those people get to be the government is irrelevant) doesn't need to taxes of the citizens, but instead have more than enough income from oil, gold or some other resource, it doesn't need to care how do the average people live. It spends some money on the army to ensure it stays in power, it spends on the palaces but the rest of the country can go to hell.

If on the other hand the only money the government has are the ones they got by taxing the average Joe it needs to care. It needs to help the average Joe to earn enough so that the absolute value of the taxes is big enough.

I'd rather pay the government than to be totally irrelevant to it.

Well, some still has to trickle down to the laborers and servants who build and work at the palace. I'm not a fan of trickle-down, but it does exist somewhat. And this can also cause people to push for reforms.

As Rawls pointed out, it's not unjust if some people benefit more than others, so long as everyone experiences a real benefit.

EG seems to me to be a perfect example of what i expect to see in an african country (when im feeling pessimistic). the GDP is $50k per capita but the average citizen makes less than $1k per year.

EG seems to me to be a perfect example of what i expect to see in an african country (when im feeling pessimistic). the GDP is $50k per capita but the average citizen makes less than $1k per year.

Would you rather both be $500?

Well, some still has to trickle down to the laborers and servants who build and work at the palace.

has to?

has to?

Yeah, they obviously use slave labor to build them.

Yeah, they obviously use slave labor to build them.

what does that have to do with anything?

what does that have to do with anything?
What else are they going to use? Robots? The local people have to be involved in constructing the palaces. Regardless, we have no proof of palaces or anything of the sort being built. When was the last mention of an eccentric EQ dictator...

Time for a revolution in Equatorial Guinea, methinks.

Time for a revolution in Equatorial Guinea, methinks.
Useless. The money has gone to buy a lot of weaponry, among other things.

Time for a revolution in Equatorial Guinea, methinks.
Nope.

The people at the top have enough money to hire the best to protect them, and would do so until the end.

Utterly untopplable at the moment.

Useless. The money has gone to buy a lot of weaponry, among other things.
Can you prove this statement?

Equatorial Guinea's HDI ranks it as 127th and on the decline - it lost seven places between 2006 and 2007. There is no data available to even state a Gini coefficient of income distribution inequality. All this thread shows is how misleading and inaccurate GDP per capita is at showing the prosperity of a nation's populace.

Well, could you imagine an over $50,000 GDP per capita country with a life expectancy of 50 years?
I can imagine an orange penguin that can fly and breath fire, so... yeah.

All this thread shows is how misleading and inaccurate GDP per capita is at showing the prosperity of a nation's populace.
Exactly.

If someone breaks into my house, steals all my stuff and I then go out and buy a whole household of goods worth less than what I originally had, and in the process using up a huge amount of my savings, GDP goes up.

Hardly making me more prosperous.

What else are they going to use? Robots? The local people have to be involved in constructing the palaces. Regardless, we have no proof of palaces or anything of the sort being built. When was the last mention of an eccentric EQ dictator...

Actually, Teodoro Obiang Nguema Mbasogo's (according to Forbes magazine one of the wealthiest heads of state who rules by decree and is an outright dictator with a personality cult and who had the state media in the country report him to be a god that has the right to kill anyone without being held accountable or "going to hell" - if that's not eccentric, I don't know what is) regime is often seen as one of the most corrupt, oppressive and undemocratic in the world.

This is an interesting article by Der Spiegel about the miserable state of Equatorial Guinea: http://www.spiegel.de/international/spiegel/0,1518,434691,00.html

If someone breaks into my house, steals all my stuff and I then go out and buy a whole household of goods worth less than what I originally had, and in the process using up a huge amount of my savings, GDP goes up.

Hardly making me more prosperous.
Your analogy fails.

Actually, Teodoro Obiang Nguema Mbasogo's (according to Forbes magazine one of the wealthiest heads of state who rules by decree and is an outright dictator with a personality cult and who had the state media in the country report him to be a god that has the right to kill anyone without being held accountable or "going to hell" - if that's not eccentric, I don't know what is) regime is often seen as one of the most corrupt, oppressive and undemocratic in the world.

This is an interesting article by Der Spiegel about the miserable state of Equatorial Guinea: http://www.spiegel.de/international/spiegel/0,1518,434691,00.html
Why hasn't it been reported in the media like Zimbabwe and Sudan?

Why hasn't it been reported in the media like Zimbabwe and Sudan?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/3098007.stm
http://globalpolicy.igc.org/security/natres/oil/2003/0122gui.htm
http://www.motherjones.com/news/outfront/2007/05/extreme_makeover.html

It has. You just weren't paying attention. Also, he is a "friend" of the USA. You can't very well hear of his atrocities and crimes - that comes when he no longer feeds you oil like a good monster and you need an excuse to steal it.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/3098007.stm
http://globalpolicy.igc.org/security/natres/oil/2003/0122gui.htm
http://www.motherjones.com/news/outfront/2007/05/extreme_makeover.html
Oooh Mother Jones. That's a good mag. I seem to have not renewed my subscription though...
It has. You just weren't paying attention. Also, he is a "friend" of the USA. You can't very well hear of his atrocities and crimes - that comes when he no longer feeds you oil like a good monster and you need an excuse to steal it.
I certainly do pay attention. Not my fault if it has only been reported in one mainstream media source: BBC. It's likely more that stuff is semi-censored. Like why we aren't hearing anything about our buddies in Saudi Arabia. Which is essentially the same problem. Some prince there just bought an Airbus A380 that he plans to make into a flying palace. The additions will cost much more than the plane.

*sigh* oil...

On paper. Its citizenry is actually dirt poor.

Bill Gates and a hundred thousand homeless people have an average net worth of $560,000.00.

Same thing.

what does that have to do with anything?

I think what Sel Appa is trying to say is that the services and (perhaps) goods that the tiny rich minority needs have to be provided by someone, and that someone will make money off of it. While that may be true, if the small rich majority is small enough (we'll assume 0.1% of the total population for now, probably less then that just from the descriptions I've heard), then the fact that for every one of them five are needed to provide services and goods isn't going to matter much, since five for 0.1% of the population still amounts to only 0.5%.

So yes, there is a "trickle down," but it's too small and most of it is becoming a "lateral trickle" to other countries who probably own the oil companies, maintain the oil tankers, and run the accounting offices. Good for the world, not so good for Equitorial Guinea.

Still, eventually the government is probably going to start distributing that a tiny bit better to turn the population in to their personal lapdogs, like the governments in the Arab world do. After all, if you're making 10 million a year, giving 500,000 of it to maintain control over the 50 people you gave middle class incomes to may be well worth your interest.

Not my fault if it has only been reported in one mainstream media source: BBC.

Der Spiegel is one of the most influential weeklies of the world. You haven't been paying attention.

Your analogy fails.
I'm not saying that my litle story is analogous to the state of EG, just showing how GDP is a very poor (no pun intended) indicator of the prosperity of a country.

Or, at least, it's a very poor indicator of the wealth of the citizens of a country.

For most nations GDP per capita is a fairly accurate depiction of living standards.
There's far better though.

I'm not saying that my litle story is analogous to the state of EG, just showing how GDP is a very poor (no pun intended) indicator of the prosperity of a country.

The vast majority of GDPs per capita do reflect the overall quality of life in a country as measured by more important factors, such as health and education. I believe that the UN's ranking of GDP per capita to HDI places Equatorial Guinea as having the biggest gap of any nation in the world. For most nations GDP per capita is a fairly accurate depiction of living standards.

There's far better though.

Example? (Other than the actual direct measure of living standards, naturally).

Der Spiegel is one of the most influential weeklies of the world. You haven't been paying attention.
Maybe in Europe. I haven't even heard of that before coming to NS and I've been on Belgian and German sites where it should have been sourced. I think it's just that you like to feel special and put people down.

I also don't go on it, so how can I not be paying attention if it hasn't been reported on what I look at. If it isn't widely reported, then it probably isn't as big of a problem as you crack it up to be.

Maybe in Europe.

No, "in the world" means "in the world". That you hadn't heard of it says nothing about Der Spiegel, but volumes on your lack of awareness.

I also don't go on it, so how can I not be paying attention if it hasn't been reported on what I look at. If it isn't widely reported, then it probably isn't as big of a problem as you crack it up to be.

My, my, you do think the world revolves around your seemingly very limited choice of media to follow. It doesn't.

Example? (Other than the actual direct measure of living standards, naturally).
Well, assesing the poverty rate in said country, the level of monetary equality, acess to healthcare and education, etc.

Rather than just measuring the size of a nation's economy.

No, "in the world" means "in the world". That you hadn't heard of it says nothing about Der Spiegel, but volumes on your lack of awareness.



My, my, you do think the world revolves around your seemingly very limited choice of media to follow. It doesn't.

And your opinion is testament to the contrary? You live in Sweden, which is near to and has strong relations with Germany. It's likely that it's a major newspaper to you.

Why hasn't it been reported in the media like Zimbabwe and Sudan?
1) Zimbabwe doesn't get all that much press, considering how shit things are there.

2) Sudan gets press because death sells, and the Janjaweed, amongst other militia, are extremely active at the moment.

3) Because it's still better off than most of the other equatorial nations.

And your opinion is testament to the contrary? You live in Sweden, which is near to and has strong relations with Germany. It's likely that it's a major newspaper to you.
It's not a newspaper, it's a weekly news magazine.

Yeah, they obviously use slave labor to build them.
ahhh...riiight. So in effect you're saying that because the president and his cronies are using their massive misappropriated wealth to make their own lives better and, in doing this, have to - out of necessity - employ people and pay them peanuts then the corruption is okay.
Because while the president is living off billions of dosh, at least he's paying a few servants a pittance to clean his rooms. While the rest of EQ live in abject poverty mind. According to you, that's real generous of him and we should admire him for his benevolence.

And your opinion is testament to the contrary?

No, that would be Der Spiegel's global renown.

You live in Sweden, which is near to and has strong relations with Germany. It's likely that it's a major newspaper to you.

It is a weekly magazine. Really, do get yourself a clue about global media, and stop thinking that the few Anglophone rags or channels your myopia and short attention span have limited you to are the shit. They're not.

Well, some still has to trickle down to the laborers and servants who build and work at the palace. I'm not a fan of trickle-down, but it does exist somewhat. And this can also cause people to push for reforms.

Female Owners was basically restating the "resource curse" where governments with easy sources of income make poor policy choices compared to ones who need enrich their citizens so they can tax them.

Example? (Other than the actual direct measure of living standards, naturally).

Median income is a far better measure than mean, because of the "Bill Gates" problem (which is particularly acute in this case).

1) Zimbabwe doesn't get all that much press, considering how shit things are there.

Zimbabwe gets plenty of press with Mugabe this and Mugabe that.

It's not a newspaper, it's a weekly news magazine.

Exactly.

ahhh...riiight. So in effect you're saying that because the president and his cronies are using their massive misappropriated wealth to make their own lives better and, in doing this, have to - out of necessity - employ people and pay them peanuts then the corruption is okay.
Because while the president is living off billions of dosh, at least he's paying a few servants a pittance to clean his rooms. While the rest of EQ live in abject poverty mind. According to you, that's real generous of him and we should admire him for his benevolence.

It's better than just locking it up in a bank account or stocks like most rich Americans do. I'm not saying it's all good, but at least they get some of it. I do hope things change and the people, along with the world, press for change.

No, that would be Der Spiegel's global renown.
Not in the US, mate.

It is a weekly magazine. Really, do get yourself a clue about global media, and stop thinking that the few Anglophone rags or channels your myopia and short attention span have limited you to are the shit. They're not.
Don't blame me for what I know of and am provided. I speak English. It is my main language. Of course I'm going to know primarily Anglophone publications.

When was the last mention of an eccentric EQ dictator...

I hope you're being sarcastic. The President of Equatorial Guinea is a well-known excentric dictator.

If it isn't widely reported, then it probably isn't as big of a problem as you crack it up to be.
So how much was the Holocaust reported before the actual fall of Nazi Germany?

It's better than just locking it up in a bank account or stocks like most rich Americans do.
Buying stocks puts more money into the busineses concerned. Those businesses typically use some of that money for expansion. Expansion typically creates more jobs, and thus can help to boost the average income.

Zimbabwe gets plenty of press with Mugabe this and Mugabe that.
Not really.

Every other week something or other crops up, but for the scale of what's going on there, that's surprisingly little.

I hope you're being sarcastic. The President of Equatorial Guinea is a well-known excentric dictator.

*stabs English* (eccentric)
Anyway...I've never heard of anything of the sort before it was mentioned in this thread.

Buying stocks puts more money into the busineses concerned. Those businesses typically use some of that money for expansion. Expansion typically creates more jobs, and thus can help to boost the average income.
Typical false argument. They invest in high-end firms that rarely reach the middle and bottom tiers. Even stretching it to regular banks doesn't cut the cake. Banks don't hire poor people.

Not really.

Every other week something or other crops up, but for the scale of what's going on there, that's surprisingly little.

Do you really think there is enough newsworthy stuff there for a story every day? "Inflation continues to skyrocket" "Zimbabwe's currency devalues further" "Even moar Zimbabweans are displaced to South Africa"

I hope you're being sarcastic. The President of Equatorial Guinea is a well-known excentric dictator.

I challenge you to find five people who have even heard of Teodoro Obiang Nguema Mbasogo.

I challenge you to find five people who have even heard of Teodoro Obiang Nguema Mbasogo.

Or Equatorial Guinea for that matter.

Or Equatorial Guinea for that matter.

That, too.

Typical false argument. They invest in high-end firms that rarely reach the middle and bottom tiers. Even stretching it to regular banks doesn't cut the cake. Banks don't hire poor people.

Thats unfair. The lowest level employees in banks aren't usually highly educated, as with any business. I don't think there's some practice of elitism going on. Besides, most average people with basic investments such as pension funds will have cover the Dow, or the FTSE100, or whatever country they are in which is a pretty diverse group of businesses.

Thats unfair. The lowest level employees in banks aren't usually highly educated, as with any business. I don't think there's some practice of elitism going on. Besides, most average people with basic investments such as pension funds will have cover the Dow, or the FTSE100, or whatever country they are in which is a pretty diverse group of businesses.

What does that have to do with rich people tying up their money in high-level stocks?

It still doesn't cover poor and less-educated people.

What does that have to do with rich people tying up their money in high-level stocks?

It still doesn't cover poor and less-educated people.

My contention was that you claimed that the businesses that you believe rich people apparently invest in (different ones from ordinary people?) do not use their capital to hire poor people. Which businesses are these?