NationStates Jolt Archive


Bush orders clampdown on flights to US

Velka Morava
14-02-2008, 19:05
Bush orders clampdown on flights to US
EU officials furious as Washington says it wants extra data on all air passengers
Ian Traynor in Brussels The Guardian, Monday February 11 2008

The US administration is pressing the 27 governments of the European Union to sign up for a range of new security measures for transatlantic travel, including allowing armed guards on all flights from Europe to America by US airlines.

The demand to put armed air marshals on to the flights is part of a travel clampdown by the Bush administration that officials in Brussels described as "blackmail" and "troublesome", and could see west Europeans and Britons required to have US visas if their governments balk at Washington's requirements.

According to a US document being circulated for signature in European capitals, EU states would also need to supply personal data on all air passengers overflying but not landing in the US in order to gain or retain visa-free travel to America, senior EU officials said.

And within months the US department of homeland security is to impose a new permit system for Europeans flying to the US, compelling all travellers to apply online for permission to enter the country before booking or buying a ticket, a procedure that will take several days.

The data from the US's new electronic transport authorisation system is to be combined with extensive personal passenger details already being provided by EU countries to the US for the "profiling" of potential terrorists and assessment of other security risks.

Washington is also asking European airlines to provide personal data on non-travellers - for example family members - who are allowed beyond departure barriers to help elderly, young or ill passengers to board aircraft flying to America, a demand the airlines reject as "absurd".

Seven demands tabled by Washington are contained in a 10-page "memorandum of understanding" (MOU) that the US authorities are negotiating or planning to negotiate with all EU governments, according to ministers and diplomats from EU member states and senior officials in Brussels. The Americans have launched their security drive with some of the 12 mainly east European EU countries whose citizens still need visas to enter the US.

"The Americans are trying to get a beefing up of their visa-waiver programmes. It's all contained in the MOU they want to put to all EU member states," said a diplomat from a west European country. "It's a very delicate problem."

As part of a controversial passenger data exchange programme allegedly aimed at combating terrorism, the EU has for the past few months been supplying the American authorities with 19 items of information on every traveller flying from the EU to the US.

The new American demands go well beyond what was agreed under that passenger name record (PNR) system and look certain to cause disputes within Europe and between Europe and the US.

Brussels is pressing European governments not to sign the bilateral deals with the Americans to avoid weakening the EU bargaining position. But Washington appears close to striking accords on the new travel regime with Greece and the Czech Republic. Both countries have sizeable diaspora communities in America, while their citizens need visas to enter the US. Visa-free travel would be popular in both countries.

A senior EU official said the Americans could get "a gung-ho frontrunner" to sign up to the new regime and then use that agreement "as a rod to beat the other member states with". The frontrunner appears to be the Czech Republic. On Wednesday, Richard Barth of the department of homeland security was in Prague to negotiate with the Czech deputy prime minister, Alexandr Vondra,

Prague hoped to sign the US memorandum "in the spring", Vondra said. "The EU has done nothing for us on visas," he said. "There was no help, no solidarity in the past. It's in our interest to move ahead. We can't just wait and do nothing. We have to act in the interest of our citizens."

While the Czechs are in a hurry to sign up, Brussels is urging delay in order to try to reach a common European position.

"There is a process of consultation and coordination under way," said Jonathan Faull, a senior European commission official involved in the negotiations with the Americans.

To European ears, the US demands sound draconian. "This would oblige the European countries to allow US air marshals on US flights. It's controversial and difficult," an EU official said. At the moment the use of air marshals is discretionary for European states and airlines.

While armed American guards would be entitled to sit on the European flights to the US, the Americans also want the PNR data transfers extended from travellers from Europe to the US to include the details of those whose flights are not to America, but which overfly US territory, say to central America or the Caribbean.

Brussels has told Washington that its demands raise legal problems in Europe over data protection, over guarantees on how the information is handled, over which US agencies have access to it or with whom it might be shared, and over issues of redress if the data is misused.

The Association of European Airlines, representing 31 airlines, including all the big west European national carriers, has told the US authorities that there is "no international legal foundation" for supplying them with data about passengers on flights overflying US territory.

The US Transport Security Administration has also asked the European airlines to supply personal data on "certain non-travelling members of the public requesting access to areas beyond the screening checkpoint".

The AEA said this was "absurd" because the airlines neither obtain nor can obtain such information. The request was "fully unjustified".

If the Americans persevere in the proposed security crackdown, Brussels is likely to respond with tit-for-tat action, such as calling for visas for some Americans.

European governments, however, would probably veto such action, one official said, not least for fear of the "massive disruption given the huge volume of transatlantic traffic".

Linky (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/feb/11/usa.theairlineindustry)

And again I ask myself: are the US trying to piss off the EU?
Laerod
14-02-2008, 19:07
War on Tourism, ftw.
Newer Burmecia
14-02-2008, 19:09
War on Tourism, ftw.
One of my dad's workmates decided to go to the Alps instead of Colorado (cancelled their holiday) simply because of all the shit they would have had to go through.
Frozopia
14-02-2008, 19:09
I hope this is rejected. America needs knocking down a peg or two.
Whereyouthinkyougoing
14-02-2008, 19:11
You know, I would be really, really interested to know what the US authorities do with all that data they've been gathering since 2001 and apparently even want to increase. Does anybody think they're actually even capable of processing such an incredible, unrelenting stream of information?
Velka Morava
14-02-2008, 19:17
I hope this is rejected. America needs knocking down a peg or two.

The Czech government is playing along with this...
Topolanek (the czech premier) wants to sign the memorandum on his next visit to the US. But he IS trying to piss of the EU.
Velka Morava
14-02-2008, 19:22
You know, I would be really, really interested to know what the US authorities do with all that data they've been gathering since 2001 and apparently even want to increase. Does anybody think they're actually even capable of processing such an incredible, unrelenting stream of information?

The STB (czech secret police) gathered mountains of never processed informations on the people it controlled.
The trick is to give you the feeling that they know. This way you either feel protected or persecuted, as needed.
The_pantless_hero
14-02-2008, 19:22
Any European nation that doesn't tell the US to go fuck itself loses all respect. The US has no history or really any ability of being able to keep personal information of its own citizens safe, why should other nations provide the private information of their citizens just because they are flying over US airspace? Fuck no. And armed US air marshals on all flights? I would be more worried about American cowboys shooting some one trying to go to the bathroom than terrorists hijacking the plane.
Cannot think of a name
14-02-2008, 19:23
You know, I would be really, really interested to know what the US authorities do with all that data they've been gathering since 2001 and apparently even want to increase. Does anybody think they're actually even capable of processing such an incredible, unrelenting stream of information?
No, no we're not. I don't want to look for the link, and it's old information so someone can prove me wrong, but Bush's information grab has overloaded our ability to process it. It's the other side of why you don't do these kinds of things, first and foremost is fucking privacy and respect for your citizenship, which should be enough, but the second is because you should only be going after information you know you need so that you have the capacity to process in time to do anything with it.
Soyut
14-02-2008, 19:24
wtf is going on? err this makes me fustrated
The_pantless_hero
14-02-2008, 19:24
You know what would be great? Any nation agreeing to this is kicked out of the EU.
Mad hatters in jeans
14-02-2008, 19:26
You'd think that Bush would want to get rid of terrorism not everyone on the planet as well. Utterly paranoid. Utterly insane. Utterly Bush.
Velka Morava
14-02-2008, 19:30
You know what would be great? Any nation agreeing to this is kicked out of the EU.

I'd agree if I didn't live in Italy AND Czech republic.
German Nightmare
14-02-2008, 19:31
This just means that I'm going on vacation somewhere else, preferably Europe, spend my money somewhere else, preferably Europe, and continue to do so.

Sure, it's only me and a relatively small amount of money - but I bet that I'm not the only one doing so.

This is really way too much and for once I hope that the EU won't have any of it any longer.

As for US-air marshals on every flight? Fuck that! And I'm not gonna pay for that stupid idea, either!
Laerod
14-02-2008, 19:35
Sure, it's only me and a relatively small amount of money - but I bet that I'm not the only one doing so.Most certainly not. I had a thread about it (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=508973), bit more than a year ago.
Kryozerkia
14-02-2008, 19:39
The thought of the US handling such information, even as a Canadian makes me shudder. It terrifies me.

Good on the EU for not buying into this horse manure.
Snafturi
14-02-2008, 19:56
You know what would be great? Any nation agreeing to this is kicked out of the EU.

Ireland, Portugal, Austria, Italy, Belgium, Slovenia, Denmark, Luxembourg, Spain, Finland, Sweden, France, Netherlands, Germany, and the United Kingdom. Not all EU, but mostly. You kick those guys out, you won't have an EU. Not much of one.
Londim
14-02-2008, 21:12
Has the US government realised yet that it does not control the entire world?

Cos ,you know, someone should really tell them this.
Kryozerkia
14-02-2008, 21:56
Has the US government realised yet that it does not control the entire world?

Cos ,you know, someone should really tell them this.

I'm sure it's been done, but alas it's lost on the 'lets shove our collective head 20,000 f'ing leagues up our massive collective ass' administration sitting in the White House.
Dyakovo
14-02-2008, 22:43
You know, I would be really, really interested to know what the US authorities do with all that data they've been gathering since 2001 and apparently even want to increase. Does anybody think they're actually even capable of processing such an incredible, unrelenting stream of information?

:eek: We're supposed to process it?
Newer Burmecia
14-02-2008, 23:46
Bush also just used the term "suiciders" in a BBC interview to refer to suicide bombers.
Boonytopia
15-02-2008, 00:07
War on Tourism, ftw.

Tourism numbers to the USA are already down, this definitely won't help that.

I say good on GW Bush for his spirit of cooperation. :rolleyes:
Andaras
15-02-2008, 00:13
Fortress America?
Pan-Arab Barronia
15-02-2008, 00:15
Just switch it round and see if the US agree to it - armed guards on all European flights from America on European airlines, etc.

See if America can swallow it's own prescription.
Call to power
15-02-2008, 00:21
people still visit the United States :confused:
Andaras
15-02-2008, 00:40
Bush also just used the term "suiciders" in a BBC interview to refer to suicide bombers.
Emos on the plane!!!11
Kyronea
15-02-2008, 00:59
Well now, this is absolutely disturbing. I suppose we can only hope that Obama will oppose this program and shut it down if/when he is elected.
The North Union
15-02-2008, 01:03
Just switch it round and see if the US agree to it - armed guards on all European flights from America on European airlines, etc.

See if America can swallow it's own prescription.

I don't see a problem with it. The U.S. Air Marshals are not uniformed but dress as civilians, and blend in. You would never know the guy sitting next to you was an armed official. They don't walk up and down the aisle with an mp5. The visa issue is however a bit too much, I agree. Most of us here cannot wait until Bush is out of office, because he violated so many of our constitutional rights, and no one has the balls to impeach him, or persecute him.

Later this year, this nation will vote for a new leader, and unless Bush suspends another one of our constitutional rights, we will vote for a candidate who will return us to a true democracy.
German Nightmare
15-02-2008, 02:46
Most certainly not. I had a thread about it (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=508973), bit more than a year ago.
Huh. And guess what? My answer in that thread still stands!

I'm not going to visit the US any time soon to spend my time and money there.

Mostly because I don't see why I should be treated like a criminal upon arrival and have my fingerprints taken. :upyours:
Sel Appa
15-02-2008, 03:16
Ok enough security already. The only real security is not causing shit to happen in the first place.