NationStates Jolt Archive

I hereby declare this thread Terra Nullius. You will receive any pay you earn through specially designated distributors of my choosing (namely me) and otherwise just stay out of my swimming pool.

And I ain't sayin' sorry neither.

Seriously though, I'll leave any comments until I've watched the whole thing tomorrow.

I think it's probably needed, it's certainly an injecting of positivism and acceptance into the Aboriginal policy area, so that Australia can move forward with Aboriginal issues accepting that past Aboriginal policy was indeed wrong, and shouldn't be done again.

from http://www.abc.net.au/canberra/stories/s2160871.htm

Sorry.

A simple word in itself but one that has caused so much controversy over such a protracted period of time.

Tomorrow, Prime Minister Kevin Rudd will be apologising to the Stolen Generation (and their families) on behalf of Parliament and the Australian nation.

There has been much discussion over the words that will be used to make the historic apology.

Here are the words you've all been waiting for, the words that Prime Minister Rudd will say in Parliament on Wednesday 13 February 2008:

"I give notice that, at the next sitting, I will move:

That

Today we honour the Indigenous peoples of this land, the oldest continuing cultures in human history.

We reflect on their past mistreatment.

We reflect in particular on the mistreatment of those who were Stolen Generations - this blemished chapter in our nation's history.

The time has now come for the nation to turn a new page in Australia's history by righting the wrongs of the past and so moving forward with confidence to the future.

We apologise for the laws and policies of successive Parliaments and governments that have inflicted profound grief, suffering and loss on these our fellow Australians.

We apologise especially for the removal of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander children from their families, their communities and their country.

For the pain, suffering and hurt of these Stolen Generations, their descendants and for their families left behind, we say sorry.

To the mothers and fathers, the brothers and sisters, for the breaking up of families and communities, we say sorry.

And for the indignity and degradation thus inflicted on a proud people and a proud culture, we say sorry.

We the Parliament of Australia respectfully request that this apology be received in the spirit in which it is offered as part of the healing of the nation.

For the future we take heart; resolving that this new page in the history of our great continent can now be written.

We today take this first step by acknowledging the past and laying claim to a future that embraces all Australian.

A future where this Parliament resolves that the injustices of the past must never, never happen again.

A future where we harness the determination of all Australians, Indigenous and non-Indigenous, to close the gap that lies between us in life expectancy, educational achievement and economic opportunity.

A future where we embrace the possibility of new solutions to enduring problems where old approaches have changed.

A future based on mutual respect, mutual resolve and mutual responsibility.

A future where all Australians, whatever their origins, are truly equal partners, with equal opportunities and with an equal stake in shaping the next chapter in the history of this great country."

What are your thoughts?

I used to debate about it a lot. I used to think that the Prime Minister shouldn't have to say "sorry" because he didn't do it personally, but I've decided that if one little world is all it takes to begin reconcilliation, it's a good thing to say "sorry".

I hereby declare this thread Terra Nullius. You will receive any pay you earn through specially designated distributors of my choosing (namely me) and otherwise just stay out of my swimming pool.

And I ain't sayin' sorry neither.

Seriously though, I'll leave any comments until I've watched the whole thing tomorrow.
But you did say sorry, Overmind Rudd speaks on behalf of all Australian people, we all think alike.

But you did say sorry, Overmind Rudd speaks on behalf of all Australian people, we all think alike.

like hell he does

like hell he does

Are you questioning the eternal wisdom of the Dear Leader!?! Expect a visit from the police tomorrow.

like hell he does

Are you from Mount Isa?

Are you from Mount Isa?

no i'am Sandgroper but lived in Queensland for a year as a kid
name came about from two PS2 games Killzone and Fire Warrior

Australia Says "Sorry"
What are your thoughts?
It's about time someone apologized for AP....
That is what they're apologizing for right?

No? Oh, apologizing for their treatment of Aborigines.
I used to debate about it a lot. I used to think that the Prime Minister shouldn't have to say "sorry" because he didn't do it personally, but I've decided that if one little world is all it takes to begin reconcilliation, it's a good thing to say "sorry".

This.

What are your thoughts?

I used to debate about it a lot. I used to think that the Prime Minister shouldn't have to say "sorry" because he didn't do it personally, but I've decided that if one little world is all it takes to begin reconcilliation, it's a good thing to say "sorry".The PM isn't saying sorry in his capacity as a person who didn't personally do anything, but as a representative of the country that did ;)

At last! Bravo, Australia. And the wording seems very appropriate. I'll be following what happens tomorrow (as best I can from the other side of the planet).

It's also encouraging to see that Nelson and the Liberals have officially supported the apology.

As an Australian I am ashamed that tis appology took so long.

So what if it wasn't me or you who did it? We can still be sorry that it happened, rather than the egotistic, sidelining arogance of Adolf Howard. And we can apologise on behalf of our ancestors who calously seperated innocent children from their parents. It was our cultural outlook that caused this in the first place.

Of course Rudd has taken the much needed step of extending this to an appology for all mistreatment of aboriginal people (note NOT "aboriginies" this term is offensive and implies there is only one aboriginal and indigenous culture in Australia).

Myall Creek, Waterloo Creek, the Black War, the Bathurst Massacre, the Battle of Pinjarra, Benalla, Gippsland, Gunditjmara, Skull Creek. It is shameful that most Australians have never heard of these - a gaping hole in the national history program of The (dis)Hon. Mr. Howard.

By disagreeing with the idea of an appology you are implying you do not regret these occurences. Are you serriously saying you would allow them to happen again?

Myall Creek, Waterloo Creek, the Black War, the Bathurst Massacre, the Battle of Pinjarra, Benalla, Gippsland, Gunditjmara, Skull Creek. It is shameful that most Australians have never heard of these - a gaping hole in the national history program of The (dis)Hon. Mr. Howard.

By disagreeing with the idea of an appology you are implying you do not regret these occurences. Are you serriously saying you would allow them to happen again?

Eyre, Burke and Wills, Sturt, Flinders, Eureka Stockade, 1890's union troubles and countless other examples, most young Australians have never heard of these either.

There are two problems with your little misguided thought patterns there.
1.) School Cirriuclums have been set by the State governments not the Federal government.

2.) Part of my schooling was before Howard under the Prime Minsterships of Paul Keating and Bob Hawke, and I was never taught about the incidents mentioned above while they were in charge either.

You really should learn a thing or two before you go on a blind rant!

I've done some soul searching on the topic, and came across quite an interesting thought; it is considered polite to respond to a wrong with "I am sorry that happened to you", even if you are completely removed from the situation. The fact that our government is finally acknowledging the hurt caused by our Indigenous Australian is the first step in what will be a very long road towards a better future for the next generation.

I'm not here to say i'm sorry,
I'm not here to lie to you,
I'm here to win your heart and soul,
that's myyeee goal.
Sorry.
Is it true the Aussie government is very close to a police state, by the way?

Is there an Australian movement for reparations?

So what's next?

Are they going to start having the living descendants of people accused of crimes start apologizing and paying out money to descendants of the alleged victims?

This is the ultimate of example of how far Western Civilization has fallen. We are apologizing for not allowing continents to be owned entirely by primitives who did nothing to help advance the human race.

I hope Australia realizes that their leader is weak. I'd rather have an incompetent leader than a weak one.

So what's next?

Are they going to start having the living descendants of people accused of crimes start apologizing and paying out money to descendants of the alleged victims?

This is the ultimate of example of how far Western Civilization has fallen. We are apologizing for not allowing continents to be owned entirely by primitives who did nothing to help advance the human race.

I hope Australia realizes that their leader is weak. I'd rather have an incompetent leader than a weak one.

Damn son, that's harsh...

I'm not here to say i'm sorry,
I'm not here to lie to you,
I'm here to win your heart and soul,
that's myyeee goal.
Sorry.
Is it true the Aussie government is very close to a police state, by the way?

Uh, no.

We're actually anarchists who ride Kangaroos.

I hereby declare this thread Terra Nullius. You will receive any pay you earn through specially designated distributors of my choosing (namely me) and otherwise just stay out of my swimming pool.

And I ain't sayin' sorry neither.

Seriously though, I'll leave any comments until I've watched the whole thing tomorrow.

How dare you declare this thread in my name & claim the income for yourself? Insolent pup! Please forward all royalties to myself, post hast, or you will be hearing from my solicitors. :p

*snip*

Is it true the Aussie government is very close to a police state, by the way?

No, it's very similar to other western democracies such as the UK & Canada.

In fact there was a thread the other day & I'm pretty sure Australia was in the top 10 in the world for functioning democracies, ahead of the UK, USA, Canada & NZ, if I remember correctly.


Edit: Yep, here (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=13412448&postcount=1) it is. Australia 8th freest country in the world.

Please ignore HSH Prince Eric, he is a racist.

I'm very glad our government has finally apologised for the stolen generation. It's 10 years too late IMO, but better late than never. Up yours Howard!

Rudd is not apologising for all Australians, he is apologising for a wrong that was done by the government, to the aboriginal peoples. Let's hope that the process of reconciliation & healing can truly begin now.

At last. At long bloody last. My own personal feelings are that this apology should have come sooner, and that the government needed to apologise for the legitimised wrongs inflicted. My biggest question for the non-apologists is this: why is it so difficult to swallow your pride and say sorry? Seriously, its a hugely important thing to the aboriginal people, and a big step to the improvement of their happiness and a good way to ease their sense of disenfranchisement. Surely that's enough to apologise? Or at least PRETEND to, if you have that much hubris, and let the government do its thing? Kicking up such a huge fuss about it is divisive, mean-spirited, and a throwback to the superiority complex that previous governments have had.


On another note, what the hell was Nelson on? His speech made no sense, and in many ways was contradictory. And I thought that left-wingers were supposed to be the ones who flip flop...

Actually I am rather disgusted by my country, the amount of subtle and cultural racism to Aboriginals 'underneath' the surface is quite disturbing, the generalizations of them as 'drunken', 'primitive' are truly pretty shameful, which explains why this apology was so divisive and not just common sense.

Personally I don't care if the parties aren't in check with the wishes of the electorate, because for the most part many Australians are being bloody reactionary about this and deserve to be told that they should shut up. I honestly don't care if we are 'politically correct' or whatever, it's this kinda mean-spirited cynical racism which needs to be weeded out of society, firstly by politicians making progressive opinions the norm on this issue.

The Howard 'zomg aznsss' Legacy is truly terrible to behold.

On another note, what the hell was Nelson on? His speech made no sense, and in many ways was contradictory. And I thought that left-wingers were supposed to be the ones who flip flop...
I liked it, and I think Rudd was right to force the Opposition on the matter. If after Rudd's (quite good) speech, Nelson just said 'I oppose this motion' he would have looked the heartless bastard to the last. Someone has the drag the liberals out of the Howard era, even if it is kicking and screaming...

I also apologise for what my nations previous governments did to the natives

that was easy now lets see some social mobility please?

No, it's very similar to other western democracies such as the UK & Canada.

so a police state then? ;)

*is arrested for saying boo too a swan*

We are apologizing for not allowing continents to be owned entirely by primitives who did nothing to help advance the human race.

you mean the Aboriginals didn't have the world rigged up to explode at any moment?!

all hail are new Kings :)

*snip*

so a police state then? ;)

*is arrested for saying boo too a swan*

:p

Not sure about the swan reference though. :confused:

I hope Australia realizes that their leader is weak. I'd rather have an incompetent leader than a weak one.

Uh, how many incompetent leaders can you name who were not weak?

Uh, how many incompetent leaders can you name who were not weak?

Also, how is it 'weak' to apologize the Aboriginals, they weren't treated 'well' by the colonists...

Are they going to start having the living descendants of people accused of crimes start apologizing and paying out money to descendants of the alleged victims?

I see it the way that it should be, the government apologizing for something that the government did. As far as I'm aware it happens in business too, even if a company's CEO has changed numerous times they're still expected to clean up if past messes surface.

In my eyes it's not the same thing as descendants, as far as I'm concerned unless they've taken a title and the responsibilities that go with it, the descendant of a person that did something doesn't have to do anything. Although it would probably still be nice of them to help out.

Empty, uninformed, cynical, calculated gesture.

Only the weak and spineless bow before the clamours of the left to apologise for the aspects of history they might not be comfortable with. Take Red Ken as an example.

As an Australian I am ashamed that tis appology took so long.

So what if it wasn't me or you who did it? We can still be sorry that it happened, rather than the egotistic, sidelining arogance of Adolf Howard. And we can apologise on behalf of our ancestors who calously seperated innocent children from their parents. It was our cultural outlook that caused this in the first place.

Of course Rudd has taken the much needed step of extending this to an appology for all mistreatment of aboriginal people (note NOT "aboriginies" this term is offensive and implies there is only one aboriginal and indigenous culture in Australia).

Myall Creek, Waterloo Creek, the Black War, the Bathurst Massacre, the Battle of Pinjarra, Benalla, Gippsland, Gunditjmara, Skull Creek. It is shameful that most Australians have never heard of these - a gaping hole in the national history program of The (dis)Hon. Mr. Howard.

By disagreeing with the idea of an appology you are implying you do not regret these occurences. Are you serriously saying you would allow them to happen again?

I don't think it's fair to say "our" outlook. It was the government's outlook. I don't even think half of my family were evn in this country when it happened, so I certainly don't group myself into that category. Unless your ancestors took children away or believed it was the right thing to do, do you really think it's your right to apologise on their behalf either? I do, however, believe that the Prime Minister has every right to say he is sorry for what the previous government did. I also think he has the right to say sorry on behalf of many Australians for the mistreatment of their people. "AboriginEs" is not an offensive term, by the way.

& If you actually read the OP, I agree with apologising. And even if I didn't agree with apologising, I wouldn't be saying "I'd allow it to happen again". You have a post count of "1". This wasn't a good start.

So what's next?

Are they going to start having the living descendants of people accused of crimes start apologizing and paying out money to descendants of the alleged victims?

This is the ultimate of example of how far Western Civilization has fallen. We are apologizing for not allowing continents to be owned entirely by primitives who did nothing to help advance the human race.

I hope Australia realizes that their leader is weak. I'd rather have an incompetent leader than a weak one.

Oh, and you clearly do so much to advance the human race, don't you?

I'm ignoring the rest of your post.

No, it's very similar to other western democracies such as the UK & Canada.

In fact there was a thread the other day & I'm pretty sure Australia was in the top 10 in the world for functioning democracies, ahead of the UK, USA, Canada & NZ, if I remember correctly.


Edit: Yep, here (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=13412448&postcount=1) it is. Australia 8th freest country in the world.

I can't believe you dignified his post with a legitimite response! I'm sure he knows about Wikipedia. He should have found out if Australia was a police state or not for himself. *humph*

Also, how is it 'weak' to apologize the Aboriginals, they weren't treated 'well' by the colonists...

If anything, it was a bold move, not a weak one.

If anything this is a good move, for now we can openly deal with Aboriginal issues without this 'apology' issue festering in the background like an open wound, made worst every now and again by the 'right' making cynical jibes at it.

Yes, I support the apology, if only for this reason.

It's a fair enough reason.

Also, how is it 'weak' to apologize the Aboriginals, they weren't treated 'well' by the colonists...

Real men don't apologise for anything. They especially don't give in to the threats and demands of the monstrously powerful Aboriginal lobby in Australia. :rolleyes:

If anything this is a good move, for now we can openly deal with Aboriginal issues without this 'apology' issue festering in the background like an open wound, made worst every now and again by the 'right' making cynical jibes at it.

Yes, I support the apology, if only for this reason.

If anything this is a good move, for now we can openly deal with Aboriginal issues without this 'apology' issue festering in the background like an open wound, made worst every now and again by the 'right' making cynical jibes at it.

Ahh Andras I have been waiting for you to start sprouting shit on this thread.

First of all let me say that you are wrong and I am right in regards to the compensation issue, now that this apology has been said the aboriginals do want compensation as Lowitja O'Donoghue (who wouldn't be in this position had she not been saved from her negligent tribe) has said that $1 billion should be enough, and on top of that she wants the money to be given to them not spent of Aboriginal tribes foe infrastructure, health services or education, ie she wants the money for herself rather than money to be spent on helping aboriginals that are in poverty.

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,23207882-29277,00.html

Are you saying that we couldn't deal with the problems in Aboriginal communities before

So what's next?

Are they going to start having the living descendants of people accused of crimes start apologizing and paying out money to descendants of the alleged victims?

This is the ultimate of example of how far Western Civilization has fallen. We are apologizing for not allowing continents to be owned entirely by primitives who did nothing to help advance the human race.

I hope Australia realizes that their leader is weak. I'd rather have an incompetent leader than a weak one.

So 'primitives' have less right to live and be a family than us 'advanced' people? That's a load of horsecrap. Every human being has basic rights, and the government of Australia violated the basic right of aboriginal peoples every chance they got. The least they can do is apologize.

I was at Federation Square in Melbourne with 3000 others this morning to watch the apology on the big screen.

http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g136/regnans/Fedsquareapology.jpg

I had tears in my eyes and happiness in my heart. It was a great moment.

A funny thing happened after Kevin Rudd finished speaking. As you can see from the photo it was an overcast day. Suddenly the clouds disappeared and the sun shone on the crowd.

I was at Federation Square in Melbourne with 3000 others this morning to watch the apology on the big screen.


From the other side of the world, I watched it live on ABC over the Internet. (Except that I got mixed up with the time zones and missed the first twenty minutes...)

A great moment.

And a reminder that, no matter how loudly the bigoted, cold-hearted minority may yelp and snarl, there are a heck of a lot of good, decent people. Heartwarming.

From the other side of the world, I watched it live on ABC over the Internet. (Except that I got mixed up with the time zones and missed the first twenty minutes...)

A great moment.

And a reminder that, no matter how loudly the bigoted, cold-hearted minority may yelp and snarl, there are a heck of a lot of good, decent people. Heartwarming.

Amen, brother. Testify!

Empty, uninformed, cynical, calculated gesture.

Only the weak and spineless bow before the clamours of the left to apologise for the aspects of history they might not be comfortable with. Take Red Ken as an example.

Red Ken?

Uh, no.

We're actually anarchists who ride Kangaroos.

*immediately applies for Australian citizenship*

A funny thing happened after Kevin Rudd finished speaking. As you can see from the photo it was an overcast day. Suddenly the clouds disappeared and the sun shone on the crowd.

Oh gosh, you've just brought a tear to my callous right-winger's eye. Clearly the very heavens themselves echo the machinations and sentiments of the apologists...

I am honestly quite moved by the complete lack of empathy from the right-wingers on this issue, it's truly disgusting. But either way you're opinions are irrelevant, even the politicians are ahead of your reactionary opinions, and want nothing to do with them.

Oh gosh, you've just brought a tear to my callous right-winger's eye. Clearly the very heavens themselves echo the machinations and sentiments of the apologists...

It rained in Sydney during the broadcast (that's Sydney for you) so I guess the Sydney gods weren't so well disposed.

Wrong. Politicians want to court the ethnic vote and cast themselves as "modern", and thus seek to apologise when they ought to tell the likes of you where to fuck off to.

Ever seen William Hague apologise for slavery? No. Until the only politician I actually trust does so, I won't either.

Okay, but who is "Red Ken?"

It rained in Sydney during the broadcast (that's Sydney for you) so I guess the Sydney gods weren't so well disposed.

Damn! Bloody inconveniant of the weather eh?

And a reminder that, no matter how loudly the bigoted, cold-hearted minority may yelp and snarl, there are a heck of a lot of good, decent people. Heartwarming.

Historian Henry Reynolds aptly described it as "this whispering in our hearts".

I am honestly quite moved by the complete lack of empathy from the right-wingers on this issue, it's truly disgusting. But either way you're opinions are irrelevant, even the politicians are ahead of your reactionary opinions, and want nothing to do with them.

Wrong. Politicians want to court the ethnic vote and cast themselves as "modern", and thus seek to apologise when they ought to tell the likes of you where to fuck off to.

Ever seen William Hague apologise for slavery? No. Until the only politician I actually trust does so, I won't either.

*immediately applies for Australian citizenship*

That actually made me giggle out loud.

Yeah, so this is essentially an empty apology. It's great that they made it and now the record can show that Australia officially recognizes how much the natives were screwed when they landed there, but really how does this change or impact anything? This is the sort of slow news day attention grabbing bs that elected officials pull whenever they can.

I was at Federation Square in Melbourne with 3000 others this morning to watch the apology on the big screen.

http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g136/regnans/Fedsquareapology.jpg

I had tears in my eyes and happiness in my heart. It was a great moment.

A funny thing happened after Kevin Rudd finished speaking. As you can see from the photo it was an overcast day. Suddenly the clouds disappeared and the sun shone on the crowd.

Jesus approved too! :p


But yes, I was quite moved watching Rudd's speech & the subsequent reaction to it (I wasn't at Fed Square though).

Well, I'm glad that's outta the way then.

Maybe we can get back to actually solving problems now. Howard's stance on the issue basically prevented any meaningful cooperation between the government and Aboriginal leaders, giving the latter a good excuse to not do very much at all.

If I'm being honest, I can't say I have a lot of empathy on the whole issue and I wasn't particularly moved by people starting to cry when they heard it. But that's just the sort of person I am - a lot of my ancestors, if you will, experienced bad things in life, but I don't think it affects me all that much. But those guys obviously feel differently, and that's not really any of my business.

So anyways, the part I really liked was that right on the back of the speech came the establishment of new political initiatives to fix things like Aboriginal housing and so on. Howard's intervention was a clumsy way of engaging the issue, but at least it was some sort of engagement. Hopefully Rudd will go one better and actually solve the problems.

But then, that will requires some serious dicussion within the wider Aboriginal community on what exactly their 21st century should look like. Natives in Canada for example have been much better at that, and as a result they have fairly well-working political and economic systems in place.

So now that we're finished with the past, let's look at the future for a change.

It rained in Sydney during the broadcast (that's Sydney for you) so I guess the Sydney gods weren't so well disposed.

Damn Sydney-siders getting all the rain... we need some too :(

Hopefully Rudd will go one better and actually solve the problems.

Not if members of the left factions have any say, their policies have been in place for the past 30 years and nothing has happened the problems have continued. And now that this unnecessary apology has been said perhaps real work can be done to help them away from the alcoholism, drug abuse, domestic violence and high incidents of sexual abuse, of course according to some people now that the government has apologised these problems will disappear.

And will the NSW State government follow the federal governments lead and apologise to my girlfriends bother-in-law for taking him from his mother, it doesn't matter if his father was abusive and mother negligent he should receive an apology oh and compensation

So now that we're finished with the past, let's look at the future for a change.

Here's an excerpt from Kevin Rudd's speech. I think it addresses this point.

The truth is: a business as usual approach towards indigenous Australians is not working.

Most old approaches are not working.

We need a new beginning, a new beginning which contains real measures of policy success or policy failure; a new beginning, a new partnership, on closing the gap with sufficient flexibility not to insist on a one-size-fits-all approach for each of the hundreds of remote and regional indigenous communities across the country but instead allowing flexible, tailored, local approaches to achieve commonly-agreed national objectives that lie at the core of our proposed new partnership; a new beginning that draws intelligently on the experiences of new policy settings across the nation.

However, unless we as a parliament set a destination for the nation, we have no clear point to guide our policy, our programs or our purpose; we have no centralised organising principle.

Let us resolve today to begin with the little children, a fitting place to start on this day of apology for the stolen generations.

Let us resolve over the next five years to have every indigenous four-year-old in a remote Aboriginal community enrolled in and attending a proper early childhood education centre or opportunity and engaged in proper preliteracy and prenumeracy programs.

Let us resolve to build new educational opportunities for these little ones, year by year, step by step, following the completion of their crucial preschool year.

Let us resolve to use this systematic approach to build future educational opportunities for indigenous children to provide proper primary and preventive health care for the same children, to begin the task of rolling back the obscenity that we find today in infant mortality rates in remote indigenous communities up to four times higher than in other communities.

None of this will be easy. Most of it will be hard, very hard. But none of it is impossible, and all of it is achievable with clear goals, clear thinking, and by placing an absolute premium on respect, cooperation and mutual responsibility as the guiding principles of this new partnership on closing the gap.

The mood of the nation is for reconciliation now, between indigenous and non-indigenous Australians. The mood of the nation on Indigenous policy and politics is now very simple.

The nation is calling on us, the politicians, to move beyond our infantile bickering, our point-scoring and our mindlessly partisan politics and to elevate this one core area of national responsibility to a rare position beyond the partisan divide.

Surely this is the unfulfilled spirit of the 1967 referendum. Surely, at least from this day forward, we should give it a go.

Let me take this one step further and take what some may see as a piece of political posturing and make a practical proposal to the opposition on this day, the first full sitting day of the new parliament.

I said before the election that the nation needed a kind of war cabinet on parts of Indigenous policy, because the challenges are too great and the consequences are too great to allow it all to become a political football, as it has been so often in the past.

I therefore propose a joint policy commission, to be led by the Leader of the Opposition and me, with a mandate to develop and implement, to begin with, an effective housing strategy for remote communities over the next five years.

It will be consistent with the government's policy framework, a new partnership for closing the gap. If this commission operates well, I then propose that it work on the further task of constitutional recognition of the first Australians, consistent with the longstanding platform commitments of my party and the pre-election position of the opposition.

This would probably be desirable in any event because, unless such a proposition were absolutely bipartisan, it would fail at a referendum. As I have said before, the time has come for new approaches to enduring problems.

Working constructively together on such defined projects would, I believe, meet with the support of the nation. It is time for fresh ideas to fashion the nation's future.

Not if members of the left factions have any say, their policies have been in place for the past 30 years and nothing has happened the problems have continued. And now that this unnecessary apology has been said perhaps real work can be done to help them away from the alcoholism, drug abuse, domestic violence and high incidents of sexual abuse, of course according to some people now that the government has apologised these problems will disappear.

*snip*

This is just rubbish, no-one has said that at all.

In fact, most people have said that now we really have to concentrate on combatting the chronic unemployment, violence, drug, alcohol & sexual abuse that exists in my many indigenous communities.

Here's an excerpt from Kevin Rudd's speech. I think it addresses this point.
Talk is cheap though.

Anyways, my point was also addressing the other side. The Aboriginal nations have no proper leadership. There's any number of elders who like to talk about how bad things used to be while offering nothing really constructive on how bad they are right now. They get lots of respect when they meet with politicians, but none if they walk around in these remote settlements telling their own kids to get off the grog.

So now that the government has taken a step to accomodate the wishes of those elders (and many, many others), I think it's time for Aboriginals themselves to quit focussing on the past. Fact of the matter is that going back to really traditional lifestyles is not a viable option for the vast majority of Aboriginal people. Most of them probably don't want to go back into the Bush completely and do without the amenities of modern technology and life (correct me if I'm wrong here...). Many are also concerned that making the jump into modernity would involve giving up ancient traditions and especially this connection with the land (which in my view is doing nothing but holding people back).

That's a difficult question to solve, and right now we have an inbetween of basically living in abject poverty with traditions only honoured in as much as people pay lipservice to them. I can't believe that's what Aboriginal people want to see themselves doing in 20, 50 or 100 years.

But no apology and no policy in Canberra can answer that. These remote settlements just cannot offer normal sorts of jobs with normal sorts of pay. Nor can anyone reasonably demand that the taxpayer fund their existence. So what I want to see is a group of Aboriginal leaders who can be iconoclasts if need be and who both see and attempt to answer this question. If anything this apology can serve as taking away the powerbase of the more or less useless current leaders for whom opposition to Howard was enough to avoid having to come up with any answers.

Talk is cheap though.

Anyways, my point was also addressing the other side...

A couple of responses.

1. Kevin Rudd has 3 years to make progress on his resolve. You and I will be able to judge him at the polling booth. He wants "a new beginning which contains real measures of policy success or policy failure". Let's see if his changes turn out to be successes or failures.

2. Unless you or I are aboriginal (I'm not), we aren't in a position to determine who their leadership is. Like any group they have effective and ineffective leaders. Two great leaders are Mick Dodson and Noel Pearson and, like the leaders of any group, they disagree on many issues. That's what makes leadership difficult (and interesting).

You raise some pertinent questions. Let's hope people rise to the challenge.

This is just rubbish, no-one has said that at all.

In fact, most people have said that now we really have to concentrate on combatting the chronic unemployment, violence, drug, alcohol & sexual abuse that exists in my many indigenous communities.

If you say so

What we couldn't focus on these problems before, and these problems are not going to disappear because of yesterdays actions espically if current thoughts to dealing with them continue

I was at Federation Square in Melbourne with 3000 others this morning to watch the apology on the big screen.

http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g136/regnans/Fedsquareapology.jpg

I had tears in my eyes and happiness in my heart. It was a great moment.

A funny thing happened after Kevin Rudd finished speaking. As you can see from the photo it was an overcast day. Suddenly the clouds disappeared and the sun shone on the crowd.
HAHAHAHAHAHA! :D

That's quite funny. Really, getting all teary-eyed over a bunch of spineless politicians and a crowd of their most sycophantic supporters grovelling and begging for forgiveness! What a load of sentimental crap, pass the bucket please!

Red Ken?
Referring to Ken Livingstone, the leftist major of London who loves to take every opportunity to show off his multiculturalist credentials. Always makes these laughably pathetic, self-important attempts to reach out to the world as if he's some kind of statesman. He pulls stunts like inviting islamic extremists over, getting cosy with Hugo Chavez, ect. Total arsehole.

As for this whole apology, big mistake. Apologising is a sign of weakness, particularly for something like this.

I BEFRIEND CHESTNUTS;13449378'] <snip>
What a load of sentimental crap, pass the bucket please!
<more snip>


The post was intentionally emotional. Sometmes it's important. This was one of those times.

The post was intentionally emotional. Sometmes it's important. This was one of those times.
Even if it is an important thing, there's no need to get all emotional over it, that just makes you look like a little girl.

I BEFRIEND CHESTNUTS;13449378']As for this whole apology, big mistake. Apologising is a sign of weakness, particularly for something like this.

How the fuck would you prefer the gov't treat native peoples? An apology at least makes it clear that what was done to the Aborigines was wrong and needs to be made right. It's a step in the right direction.

I BEFRIEND CHESTNUTS;13449482']Even if it is an important thing, there's no need to get all emotional over it, that just makes you look like a little girl.

Hmmm, not everyone is emotionally retarded you know.

Well again I am glad our politicians are way ahead of the reactionaries who populate this country... Sometimes people need to told that they suck.

Well again I am glad our politicians are way ahead of the reactionaries who populate this country... Sometimes people need to told that they suck.

That is incredibly true...


Even if it is an important thing, there's no need to get all emotional over it, that just makes you look like a little girl.

Emotion is weak! Tears are for pussys! I like to eat babies!


...wait, what?

In CHESTNUTS-land, smiling is punishable by death.

In CHESTNUTS-land, smiling is punishable by death.

LG would be killed in a minute :(

LG would be killed in a minute :(Knowing LG, it would be a massacre.

Historian Henry Reynolds aptly described it as "this whispering in our hearts".

I know. I good way of putting it. I've read The Other Side of the Frontier, and I've ordered Why Weren't We Told?

(Before the right-wingers start whingeing again, I've also read Blainey's Triumph of the Nomads and a few articles by Windschuttle, just to see what they say.)

Yeah, so this is essentially an empty apology. It's great that they made it and now the record can show that Australia officially recognizes how much the natives were screwed when they landed there, but really how does this change or impact anything? This is the sort of slow news day attention grabbing bs that elected officials pull whenever they can.

I'm guessing (hoping) you're not Australian, which would explain why you know so little about this.

1) It wasn't just about recognising "how much the natives were screwed when they [Europeans] landed there", it was also about policies which continued until around 1970. There are a lot of Aboriginal people still alive today who were part of the Stolen Generations. It's an apology to the living, not just to the dead.

2) It is most emphatically not "the sort of slow news day attention grabbing bs that elected officials pull whenever they can". You embarass yourself by suggesting it. This has been debated for the past decade, was announced during the election campaign, and took a lot of preparing. It was anything but a spur of the moment thing.

Well again I am glad our politicians are way ahead of the reactionaries who populate this country... Sometimes people need to told that they suck.

As I said, the noisy minority can't (or shouldn't) obscure the fact that there are a great many normal, decent people capable of normal human reactions and emotions. Such as compassion and understanding. And normal human intellectual abilities, such as acknowledging reality.

I BEFRIEND CHESTNUTS;13449378']Referring to Ken Livingstone, the leftist major of London who loves to take every opportunity to show off his multiculturalist credentials. Always makes these laughably pathetic, self-important attempts to reach out to the world as if he's some kind of statesman. He pulls stunts like inviting islamic extremists over, getting cosy with Hugo Chavez, ect. Total arsehole.

Thanks.

I thought his speech was fantastic. I was utterly impressed with it.
What was slightly disturbing was fuckwit Howard's decision not to be at parliament for the speech. Makes him look like (if possible) even more of a disillusioned fool. Saying sorry was vital to the relationship between Aborigines and the rest of Australia. Still, it's only the start of a very long road to fixing all of the pressing and important issues facing all involved.

I thought his speech was fantastic. I was utterly impressed with it.
What was slightly disturbing was fuckwit Howard's decision not to be at parliament for the speech. Makes him look like (if possible) even more of a disillusioned fool.

It certainly made him look isolated. Which he is.


Saying sorry was vital to the relationship between Aborigines and the rest of Australia.

Indeed.


Still, it's only the start of a very long road to fixing all of the pressing and important issues facing all involved.

Quite. Now we get to see whether the bipartisan approach agreed to by Rudd and Nelson leads anywhere.

By the way, an interesting article in The Age:


Tom Calma, the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander social justice commissioner, delivered the first formal indigenous response to the apology. Speaking in the Members Hall of Parliament, Mr Calma said the issue was not about a black armband view of Australian history. "This isn't an issue of guilt. It's an issue of belonging."

Aboriginality is essentially about belonging to a place and the people of a place. When that connection is severed, in addition to the obvious grief, all sorts of complications arise, which are then transferred through the generations.

This truth has been little heard, or respected, in Australian public debate in the past decade. One of the many questions asked following yesterday's apology was how it was that we permitted a pernicious misrepresentation of the truth to assume such a prominent place in our national psyche. One answer is that we had a so-called "Aboriginal debate" with few Aboriginal voices in it. And among the most vociferous participants in this "debate" were individuals who had had no relationships with — or any interest in — Aboriginal people. The most obvious example is former prime minister John Howard.

One significant moment in the lead-up to yesterday's apology came when Mr Rudd visited an elderly member of the stolen generations, Nanna Nungala Fejo, from Tennant Creek. Of their 90-minute meeting, she later said: "He listened. At least he listened, and no one else listened."

In yesterday's speech, Mr Rudd told of asking Nanna Nungala Fejo what message she wanted him to convey. She said: "All mothers are important. Families, keeping them together, is very important. It is important that love is passed through generations. That's what gives happiness."

No attempt to induce guilt here.

As little as 12 months go, a formal apology to the stolen generations appeared out of the question politically. Now it has happened, and been met with resistance by only a few recalcitrants. What was going on 12 months ago? Were we bluffed into a certain way of thinking? The sad conclusion is that the void created by the absence of knowledge, by credulity, was filled with fear.


In case anyone missed them, here are the full speeches made by Rudd and Nelson:
Rudd's speech and apology (http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/kevin-rudds-sorry-speech/2008/02/13/1202760379056.html?page=fullpage)
Nelson's speech and apology (http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/brendan-nelsons-sorry-speech/2008/02/13/1202760366050.html?page=fullpage)

Nelson's reply stung to me as just making excuses to satisfy the Right in his party.

It certainly made him look isolated. Which he is.

Indeed.

Quite. Now we get to see whether the bipartisan approach agreed to by Rudd and Nelson leads anywhere.

By the way, an interesting article in The Age:

In case anyone missed them, here are the full speeches made by Rudd and Nelson:
Rudd's speech and apology (http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/kevin-rudds-sorry-speech/2008/02/13/1202760379056.html?page=fullpage)
Nelson's speech and apology (http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/brendan-nelsons-sorry-speech/2008/02/13/1202760366050.html?page=fullpage)

It really has put Howard in a bad light, making him look petulent & very much out of touch with the community.

As little as 12 months go, a formal apology to the stolen generations appeared out of the question politically. Now it has happened, and been met with resistance by only a few recalcitrants. What was going on 12 months ago? Were we bluffed into a certain way of thinking? The sad conclusion is that the void created by the absence of knowledge, by credulity, was filled with fear.

The has been large scale support from (I would say the majority of) Australians for an apology for at least 10 years now. Witness the original sorry day marches a decade ago. The difference is that Howard was totally opposed to it & stifled any debate about it within his own party (which he ruled with an iron fist), thus forcing it off the agenda. Now, with a change of government, it has happend.

Nelson's reply stung to me as just making excuses to satisfy the Right in his party.

I'm sure that's what it was for. He was only marginally elected leader of the libs & it was due to the support of the right. If he pisses them off too much, he'll be given the arse & Turnbull will win the subsequent leadership vote.

I'm sure that's what it was for. He was only marginally elected leader of the libs & it was due to the support of the right. If he pisses them off too much, he'll be given the arse & Turnbull will the subsequent leadership vote.

Well not Turnbull, he's on the 'left' of his party, there is however plenty who would take the job.

This is definitely a step forward for the gov't. Progress cannot be made in that area until that is sorted out. He also did so in an eloquent and sincere manner. I could be all cynical and look at the pure political motives, but its nice to see things in a positive light every once in a while.

Well not Turnbull, he's on the 'left' of his party, there is however plenty who would take the job.

Nelson only won the leadership by a couple of votes, so if he pisses off the right, I reckon Turnbull will be able to swing enough votes next time (even though he is from the 'left' of the libs). The only other serious candiadate to put their hand up was Abott & even the libs right are not crazy enough to elect that loose cannon as their leader.

Nelson only won the leadership by a couple of votes, so if he pisses off the right, I reckon Turnbull will be able to swing enough votes next time (even though he is from the 'left' of the libs). The only other serious candiadate to put their hand up was Abott & even the libs right are not crazy enough to elect that loose cannon as their leader.

They are both from the small "l" side of the Liberal Party but it is true that Nelson became leader with the support of the right. I think that's why his response was bit schizoid - he was trying to balance what he believed with what his supporters wanted.

He won the leadership by three votes when some of the seats were still in doubt. (The vote was taken before the AEC had finalised several seats.) Subsequently 2 of his supporters lost their seats. A third, Fran Bailey, is now subject to a court challenge by Labor. Could be interesting times ahead for the Liberals.

The following places have apologised for slavery:

France, on January 30, 2006 (BBC, 2006)

England, on March 14, 2007 (BBC, 2007)

Virgina, on February 24, 2007 (MCEACHIN, 2007)

Alabama, on May 31, 2007 (AP, 2007)

Maryland, in 2007 (WIGGIN, 2007)

North Carolina, in 2007 (RALEIGH, 2007)

AP (2007) Alabama Governor Joins Other States in Apologizing For Role in Slavery. FoxNews.Com.
BBC (2006) Chirac names slavery memorial day. BBC News. London.
BBC (2007) Blair 'sorry' for UK slavery role. BBC News. London.
MCEACHIN, D. (2007) HOUSE JOINT RESOLUTION NO. 728. IN COMMITTEE, J. C. (Ed.), Legislative Information System
RALEIGH, N. C. (2007) N.C. Senate apologizes for slavery. USA Today
WIGGINS, O. (2007) 'Regret' Over Md. Role in Slavery; State Senate Resolution follows Similar Action in Virginia. The Washington Post. Washington.

They are both from the small "l" side of the Liberal Party but it is true that Nelson became leader with the support of the right. I think that's why his response was bit schizoid - he was trying to balance what he believed with what his supporters wanted.

He won the leadership by three votes when some of the seats were still in doubt. (The vote was taken before the AEC had finalised several seats.) Subsequently 2 of his supporters lost their seats. A third, Fran Bailey, is now subject to a court challenge by Labor. Could be interesting times ahead for the Liberals.
Well Nelson's 'victory' was always Pyhrric, I have doubts he'll last long enough to contest the next election. Also federal Liberal doesn't actually have as big a conservative Right as the states do, state Liberal is a figurative cesspool of the right.

The following places have apologised for slavery:

France, on January 30, 2006 (BBC, 2006)

England, on March 14, 2007 (BBC, 2007)

Virgina, on February 24, 2007 (MCEACHIN, 2007)

Alabama, on May 31, 2007 (AP, 2007)

Maryland, in 2007 (WIGGIN, 2007)

North Carolina, in 2007 (RALEIGH, 2007)

AP (2007) Alabama Governor Joins Other States in Apologizing For Role in Slavery. FoxNews.Com.
BBC (2006) Chirac names slavery memorial day. BBC News. London.
BBC (2007) Blair 'sorry' for UK slavery role. BBC News. London.
MCEACHIN, D. (2007) HOUSE JOINT RESOLUTION NO. 728. IN COMMITTEE, J. C. (Ed.), Legislative Information System
RALEIGH, N. C. (2007) N.C. Senate apologizes for slavery. USA Today
WIGGINS, O. (2007) 'Regret' Over Md. Role in Slavery; State Senate Resolution follows Similar Action in Virginia. The Washington Post. Washington.

Well, that's the thing, many would argue that the Aboriginals were treated worst than personal slaves, officially in fact they were not acknowledged as 'people', but as 'flora and fauna'. The Tasmanian Aboriginals for example were almost completely wiped out by the colonists, which undeniably was genocide.

Well, this changes everything for the aborigines, I'm sure.

The following places have apologised for slavery:

France, on January 30, 2006 (BBC, 2006)

England, on March 14, 2007 (BBC, 2007)

Virgina, on February 24, 2007 (MCEACHIN, 2007)

Alabama, on May 31, 2007 (AP, 2007)

Maryland, in 2007 (WIGGIN, 2007)

North Carolina, in 2007 (RALEIGH, 2007)

AP (2007) Alabama Governor Joins Other States in Apologizing For Role in Slavery. FoxNews.Com.
BBC (2006) Chirac names slavery memorial day. BBC News. London.
BBC (2007) Blair 'sorry' for UK slavery role. BBC News. London.
MCEACHIN, D. (2007) HOUSE JOINT RESOLUTION NO. 728. IN COMMITTEE, J. C. (Ed.), Legislative Information System
RALEIGH, N. C. (2007) N.C. Senate apologizes for slavery. USA Today
WIGGINS, O. (2007) 'Regret' Over Md. Role in Slavery; State Senate Resolution follows Similar Action in Virginia. The Washington Post. Washington.

Alabama? We're behind ALABAMA?

Alabama? We're behind ALABAMA?

Just goes to prove how true the whole "better really, really, really, really late than never" thing is.

Just goes to prove how true the whole "better really, really, really, really late than never" thing is.

That's true.

But... I still can't believe we did it later than ALABAMA.

New South Wales Premier: Australians should be proud of apology
(This predates the apology.)


Australians should feel proud and "quite relieved" at the prospect of an imminent Rudd government apology to the nation's Indigenous people, says NSW Premier Morris Iemma.

In his Australia Day statement, Mr Iemma said a formal apology by the federal parliament had remained conspicuously absent amid the "richness" of Australian achievement over the 220 years since colonisation.

"We have created an open, friendly lifestyle ... a robust democracy with an egalitarian ethos to underpin it, something Britain in many ways still lacks," Mr Iemma says.

"What is still conspicuously lacking among the richness of our achievement, though, is a shared understanding of how this land is to be fairly shared between black and white Australians, and how our complex history should be understood.

"Certainly every Australian should approach the prospect of an apology by the commonwealth parliament during 2008 as something of which we can all be immensely proud and also quite relieved."

Mr Iemma said the move would not automatically resolve the inequalities that remain in Aboriginal communities, and "nor will it result in white families having their backyards taken from them".

"It will simply be the act of a grown-up country finally ready to admit the wrongs and mistakes of the past.

"A country secure in itself should never be afraid of doing that, any more than it should decline to celebrate its achievements and its victories."

The premier's message went out as hundreds of thousands of people were preparing to attend events to mark Australia Day across Sydney.


(link (http://www.nit.com.au/news/story.aspx?id=13973))

New South Wales Premier: Australians should be proud of apology
(This predates the apology.)



(link (http://www.nit.com.au/news/story.aspx?id=13973))

Why should we feel relieved

Why should we feel relieved

Because we can now effectively ignore the fringe views of people like you.

Because we can now effectively ignore the fringe views of people like you.

Still dosen't answer my question btw you would find that my views are not really on the fringe, have a look around you won't find me there with you

Still dosen't answer my question btw you would find that my views are not really on the fringe, have a look around you won't find me there with you

Yeah my mistake, alot of Australians are in fact racist, does that make your racist views any better? If anything collective stupidity is worse than individual...

Take note here, this is coming from the absolute, most destitute and hopeless fringe of them all, that inhabited by the communists and anarchists and other adherents of fantastic and imaginative failed political theories.

When he says that the fringe views can be ignored, he speaks from deep personal experience of having his own fringe views ignored by the entirety of the civilized world, forever.
Actually if anything most people would agree with my views if they weren't so damned idealistic and dogmatically stupid. All of the arguments for example against Stalin on NSG boil down to preconception and ignorance, not fact.

If anything the enemy of the scientific objectivity of Marxism is just that preconception and ignorance (more of the 'communism failed' etc).

Your comments and posting style if anything prove my point. You talk as if because the majority of people buy that bourgeois myths of history that somehow your views are correct by sheer virtue of collective ignorance.

I am sad for you...

Because we can now effectively ignore the fringe views of people like you.

Take note here, this is coming from the absolute, most destitute and hopeless fringe of them all, that inhabited by the communists and anarchists and other adherents of fantastic and imaginative failed political theories.

When he says that the fringe views can be ignored, he speaks from deep personal experience of having his own fringe views ignored by the entirety of the civilized world, forever.

You communist bashers even managed to sneak into a thread about apologizing for genocide (more or less), huh? Grab a manifesto and see where it says any of the stupid horrible things you attribute to it.

(And enough with Stalin! I can't think of a single Communist who doesn't hate his guts for the horrible things he did to us and our image. He killed Trotsky and all the rest of the communist leaders in Russia, betrayed his fellow proletariats, and abandoned our comrades in Britain and Germany. Fuck that traitor and his genocidal friend Mao while your at it. All they've done is warped our blessed ideology into an instrument of hate and state capitalism. If you want to see a real Communist go look at Castro, not that asshole Stalin.)

Back on topic I think this was a excellent step in the right direction. Now if Australia can follow thru with some of their promises the whole of the country can move forwards towards a more prosperous era of cooperation and mutual respect. (Tho people like Bouman Empire might lead one to believe that in the near future we'll simply see Australia turn into a racist cesspool of racist ignorance and destruction.)

And enough with Stalin! I can't think of a single Communist who doesn't hate his guts for the horrible things he did to us and our image.

I can, and he's right here on NSG...]
Talopoli meet Andaras/Andaras Prime/Eureka Australis

Actually if anything most people would agree with my views if they weren't so damned idealistic and dogmatically stupid. All of the arguments for example against Stalin on NSG boil down to preconception and ignorance, not fact.

If anything the enemy of the scientific objectivity of Marxism is just that preconception and ignorance (more of the 'communism failed' etc).

Your comments and posting style if anything prove my point. You talk as if because the majority of people buy that bourgeois myths of history that somehow your views are correct by sheer virtue of collective ignorance.

I am sad for you...


hahaha!

That's all quite fascinating, I'm sure!

I can, and he's right here on NSG...]
Talopoli meet Andaras/Andaras Prime/Eureka Australis

I stand corrected. Hello stupid and naive 'communist'. have fun holding on to lies and misinformation that the USSR ITSELF found shortly after Stalin's death that showed the level of paranoia and madness that Stalin carried out, resulting in the deaths of millions of good hearted and faithful communists who died because they actually intended to carry out what the party preached. Stalin was no better then Hitler, except that Hitler at least told us of his intentions to bring about hell on earth.

I stand corrected. Hello stupid and naive 'communist'. have fun holding on to lies and misinformation that the USSR ITSELF found shortly after Stalin's death that showed the level of paranoia and madness that Stalin carried out, resulting in the deaths of millions of good hearted and faithful communists who died because they actually intended to carry out what the party preached. Stalin was no better then Hitler, except that Hitler at least told us of his intentions to bring about hell on earth.
I am too tired to argue with teenage naive leftists who haven't discovered that their own ideas aren't original yet, and thus their exploding ego thinks they are the sum of all human knowledge. Nor do I care to debate with the espouses of McCarthyist and Nazi propaganda, dressed up in Trotskyist rhetoric. I suggest you trawl through my posts which counter your common yet stupid falsehoods.

I am too tired to argue with teenage naive leftists who haven't discovered that their own ideas aren't original yet, and thus their exploding ego thinks they are the sum of all human knowledge. Nor do I care to debate with the espouses of McCarthyist and Nazi propaganda, dressed up in Trotskyist rhetoric. I suggest you trawl through my posts which counter your common yet stupid falsehoods.Nah, you buy into Maoist propaganda, that claims that the oppression of the working class at the hands of the bourgeoisie is actually communism in action.

Wow. Just... wow. HUGE thread derailment here peoples. Let it die? Maybe?

There are plenty of communist threads you guys can beat each other up in. Here ain't the place.

On another note, I just watched a documentary one Four Corners about the Howard leadership... not ENTIRELY relevant, but man, did they all want him gone!

Nah, you buy into Maoist propaganda, that claims that the oppression of the working class at the hands of the bourgeoisie is actually communism in action.
lolwut?


On another note, I just watched a documentary one Four Corners about the Howard leadership... not ENTIRELY relevant, but man, did they all want him gone!
I saw it, I admit I almost felt sympathy for Costello, but when I thought of his smirk if he became PM it instantly disappeared.

Wow. Just... wow. HUGE thread derailment here peoples. Let it die? Maybe?

There are plenty of communist threads you guys can beat each other up in. Here ain't the place.

On another note, I just watched a documentary one Four Corners about the Howard leadership... not ENTIRELY relevant, but man, did they all want him gone!

Lol, I suppose... Most of the Liberal supporters I know wanted to keep Howard. I think it was Rudd's advertising and more centrist approach that won it for him.

lolwut?You may not remember. You abandoned the thread and never replied. It was about that model communist society in a Chinese town.

You may not remember. You abandoned the thread and never replied. It was about that model communist society in a Chinese town.

Or the thread on Stalin, or the thread where I disproved the Katyn Masscre was German, as AP claimed, and was in fact intiated by Stalin himself (even citing the actual documents that prove it)

For all your talk of ideology and capitalist oppression and 'Nazi and McCarthy propaganda', AP, you don't even attempt to debate the facts.

Or the thread on Stalin, or the thread where I disproved the Katyn Masscre was German, as AP claimed, and was in fact intiated by Stalin himself (even citing the actual documents that prove it)

For all your talk of ideology and capitalist oppression and 'Nazi and McCarthy propaganda', AP, you don't even attempt to debate the facts.

It is a disservice to the countless tens of millions murdered and robbed by communism and its agents to dignify the ideology of theft, human extermination and terror by debating it as though it were a valid or civilized idea.

The only acceptable response to it's proponents is to ignore them or to mock them, but never to treat them as equals in the marketplace of ideas, never to treat their despicable litany of evil as reasonable or interesting.

Communism is the most devastating and horrific of all human ideologies, it is the belief and advocacy of never-ending crime.

Take note here, this is coming from the absolute, most destitute and hopeless fringe of them all, that inhabited by the communists and anarchists and other adherents of fantastic and imaginative failed political theories.

When he says that the fringe views can be ignored, he speaks from deep personal experience of having his own fringe views ignored by the entirety of the civilized world, forever.

lol good one

It is a disservice to the countless tens of millions murdered and robbed by communism and its agents to dignify the ideology of theft, human extermination and terror by debating it as though it were a valid or civilized idea.

The only acceptable response to it's proponents is to ignore them or to mock them, but never to treat them as equals in the marketplace of ideas, never to treat their despicable litany of evil as reasonable or interesting.

Communism is the most devastating and horrific of all human ideologies, it is the belief and advocacy of never-ending crime.

Of course; wanting the poor and rich to both be treated as humans and trying to get rid of the systems that are ruining this planet thru mass pollution and war is as EBIL as you can get. Communism evil indeed... whats next? free health care so the homeless don't die of the cold? Egad!

Anyways sorry for hijacking the thread, but he started it.

It is a disservice to the countless tens of millions murdered and robbed by communism and its agents to dignify the ideology of theft, human extermination and terror by debating it as though it were a valid or civilized idea.

The only acceptable response to it's proponents is to ignore them or to mock them, but never to treat them as equals in the marketplace of ideas, never to treat their despicable litany of evil as reasonable or interesting.

Communism is the most devastating and horrific of all human ideologies, it is the belief and advocacy of never-ending crime.

That, my dear sir, is unwarranted, needlessly antagonistic, and seriously out of line. Prepare to defend your position to the death in debate. (But in order to not hijack this one, I'll start a new thread)

[/end threadjack.]

Of course; wanting the poor and rich to both be treated as humans and trying to get rid of the systems that are ruining this planet thru mass pollution and war is as EBIL as you can get. Communism evil indeed... whats next? free health care so the homeless don't die of the cold? Egad!

Anyways sorry for hijacking the thread, but he started it.

The poor in the US and in capitalist western Europe are ten times better off than the poor in communinst shitholes.

You're wrong.

Communism doesn't treat anyone as a human being, only as a member of a 'class,' either to be exterminated and robbed or else enslaved.

I used to debate about it a lot. I used to think that the Prime Minister shouldn't have to say "sorry" because he didn't do it personally, but I've decided that if one little world is all it takes to begin reconcilliation, it's a good thing to say "sorry".
I love this argument. When you get the inheritence from your parent's do you reject it as you didn't do the work, your parent's did? I don't think so. If you take the good from your ancestors, take the bad.
Don't get me wrong. I'm not giving the land back, or compensating them. There are winners and losers in history. The aborigines lost. If the aborigines get compensated, nearly everyone in Europe could get up and claim compo from Italy or Turkey for the actions of the Roman, or Holy Roman Empire. Scandinavia will be paying lots of compo for Viking Activities.

That, my dear sir, is unwarranted, needlessly antagonistic, and seriously out of line. Prepare to defend your position to the death in debate. (But in order to not hijack this one, I'll start a new thread)

Do you honestly expect me to believe that you understood what you quoted and are purporting to respond to if this is your response?

What part of it was unclear?

Do you honestly expect me to believe that you understood what you quoted and are purporting to respond to if this is your response?

What part of it was unclear?

My apologies, I thought I made it quite clear that I felt your post was overly aggressive, and that I disagreed with your contentions. As a result of that, I shall be debating it.

Basically, I think you're wrong, and intend to make you defend your position.

Anyway, I am currently writing up my argument, and will be posting it as soon as I have finished.

Sorry to go off topic, butI'd like to say a few words about the appology. Oh, wait, that is the topic!

I left this a while so as to allow a variety of views. Here are my responses.

Eyre, Burke and Wills, Sturt, Flinders, Eureka Stockade, 1890's union troubles and countless other examples, most young Australians have never heard of these either.

There are two problems with your little misguided thought patterns there.
1.) School Cirriuclums have been set by the State governments not the Federal government.

2.) Part of my schooling was before Howard under the Prime Minsterships of Paul Keating and Bob Hawke, and I was never taught about the incidents mentioned above while they were in charge either.

You really should learn a thing or two before you go on a blind rant![\quote]

I finished year twelve in 2006. I know perfectly well who Burke and Wills were, same for Stuart and Flinders who I consider the greatest explorer of all, Eureka Stockade is still the battlecry of student movements against the establishment. If by Eyre you mean Ayre of 'Ayre's rock, Ayre's house and Lake Ayre fame then yes, most of us know him too. I accept that the 1890's union troubles are unknown to me, but pointing further holes in the history curriculum does not prove your point at all.

As for the two "problems"

1.) Howard hijacked the history curriculum. See ABC new's "Howard urges history curriculum revamp": Here (http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200608/s1717080.htm)
with related section "State ministers excluded"
The Age's "Howard rewrites history curriculum":
Here (http://www.theage.com.au/news/national/howard-rewrites-history-curriculum/2007/10/11/1191696043599.html)

More relevantly there is "John Howard's history 'too white'" from the courier mail: Here (http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,23739,22569534-952,00.html)

and now "Rudd to scrap Howard's history" in the age: Here (http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2008/01/09/1199554741706.html)

2.) I never said other PM's did not also neglect this issue. There has been a systematic ind institutionalised ignorace of this topic for a long time. That is my point.

You really should learn a thing or two about our political history and basic epistemology before you go on a blind reply!

Is it true the Aussie government is very close to a police state, by the way?

only as far as the US or UK, probably less so.

So what's next?

Are they going to start having the living descendants of people accused of crimes start apologizing and paying out money to descendants of the alleged victims?

This is the ultimate of example of how far Western Civilization has fallen. We are apologizing for not allowing continents to be owned entirely by primitives who did nothing to help advance the human race.

I hope Australia realizes that their leader is weak. I'd rather have an incompetent leader than a weak one.

Firstly, who said anything about paying money? And why shouldn't a descendant of Jack the Ripper appologise on behalf of his family?

Secondly, the ultimate example of ow far Western Civilization has fallen is your pigheaded stupidity. Aboriginal Peoples were not primitives. They had a highly developed cultural system, it just differed to the one you assume to be superior due to your white-european paradigm. "Our western system is so much better because it has corruption, greed and downtrodden masses!"

Thirdly, Aboriginal People did plenty to further the human race, it's just that white-settlers destroyed most of it with their invasion and wiped out many who could further develop great advances for our species

You have provided no evidence to show that Rudd is a weak leader. And you would rather have a rascist leader than either of those listed.

[quote]
Originally Posted by Sneaking Up Behind You
As an Australian I am ashamed that tis appology took so long.

So what if it wasn't me or you who did it? We can still be sorry that it happened, rather than the egotistic, sidelining arogance of Adolf Howard. And we can apologise on behalf of our ancestors who calously seperated innocent children from their parents. It was our cultural outlook that caused this in the first place.

Of course Rudd has taken the much needed step of extending this to an appology for all mistreatment of aboriginal people (note NOT "aboriginies" this term is offensive and implies there is only one aboriginal and indigenous culture in Australia).

Myall Creek, Waterloo Creek, the Black War, the Bathurst Massacre, the Battle of Pinjarra, Benalla, Gippsland, Gunditjmara, Skull Creek. It is shameful that most Australians have never heard of these - a gaping hole in the national history program of The (dis)Hon. Mr. Howard.

By disagreeing with the idea of an appology you are implying you do not regret these occurences. Are you serriously saying you would allow them to happen again?[Quote/]

I don't think it's fair to say "our" outlook. It was the government's outlook. I don't even think half of my family were evn in this country when it happened, so I certainly don't group myself into that category. Unless your ancestors took children away or believed it was the right thing to do, do you really think it's your right to apologise on their behalf either? I do, however, believe that the Prime Minister has every right to say he is sorry for what the previous government did. I also think he has the right to say sorry on behalf of many Australians for the mistreatment of their people. "AboriginEs" is not an offensive term, by the way.

& If you actually read the OP, I agree with apologising. And even if I didn't agree with apologising, I wouldn't be saying "I'd allow it to happen again". You have a post count of "1". This wasn't a good start.

I agree that those who were not involved need not apologise, and your later statement that Rudd's move was bold, not weak.

"Aborigines" is highly offensive to many aboriginal groups as it implys they are only one group with one culture when there is great diversity in reality.

And I have poset under many names. I just reply using whatever nation I am controling in NS when the topic comes up.

[quote]Originally Posted by Andaras
I am honestly quite moved by the complete lack of empathy from the right-wingers on this issue, it's truly disgusting. But either way you're opinions are irrelevant, even the politicians are ahead of your reactionary opinions, and want nothing to do with them.

Wrong. Politicians want to court the ethnic vote and cast themselves as "modern", and thus seek to apologise when they ought to tell the likes of you where to fuck off to.

Of course, Its so clear, the government did wrong in the past...so they should tellthose who call it wrong to shut up. That's how Democracy is surposed to work!

<snip>As for this whole apology, big mistake. Apologising is a sign of weakness, particularly for something like this.

Apology is a sign of politeness, decency and compassion, particularly for something like this. That is only weak in the eyes of those who rely on the ol' 'kick'em while they're down' mentality.

Even if it is an important thing, there's no need to get all emotional over it, that just makes you look like a little girl., yep, 'kick'em while they're down'er here.

It really has put Howard in a bad light, making him look petulent & very much out of touch with the community. Yes, it does make the reality easier to see, doesn't it ;)

Well Nelson's 'victory' was always Pyhrric, I have doubts he'll last long enough to contest the next election. Also federal Liberal doesn't actually have as big a conservative Right as the states do, state Liberal is a figurative cesspool of the right.

Yup. He's there to fix the party, then it'll be passed over to someone to take to the election.

As for the two "problems"

1.) Howard hijacked the history curriculum. See ABC new's "Howard urges history curriculum revamp": Here (http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200608/s1717080.htm)
with related section "State ministers excluded"
The Age's "Howard rewrites history curriculum":
Here (http://www.theage.com.au/news/national/howard-rewrites-history-curriculum/2007/10/11/1191696043599.html)

More relevantly there is "John Howard's history 'too white'" from the courier mail: Here (http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,23739,22569534-952,00.html)

and now "Rudd to scrap Howard's history" in the age: Here (http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2008/01/09/1199554741706.html)

2.) I never said other PM's did not also neglect this issue. There has been a systematic ind institutionalised ignorace of this topic for a long time. That is my point.

You really should learn a thing or two about our political history and basic epistemology before you go on a blind reply!


Perhaps yous should learn a thing or two (Andaras?) before you come out and attempt to say that I am wrong.

Lets us begin shall we, I am very glad that you know about our explorers and many of your classmates do too not knowing which state you had your schooling (not to mention which school), I had mine in the NSW and SA school systems, and I learnt a lot about our explorers in NSW not so much in SA my brother has done all his schooling in SA and I know for a fact that he has not been taught about as much and this is the fault of one the SA government though its education department and amongst the some incompetent teachers that actually lack the basic knowledge on what they are teaching, (yes I learnt about Ayre but I was actually referring to John Edward Eyre, pointing holes in the curriculum may not help my argument but it inhibits yours, and if you are Andaras then I am shocked that you don't know about the 1980 strikes)

You state that Howard took over the history curriculum nationally across Australia and you attempted to prove this by showing me a couple of articles. Now his 'blue print' for history teaching in years 9-10 only never actually went through and thus the history curriculum has stayed under the control of the State Education departments. And not John Howard as you claim. And I actually had finished my schooling before this plan was proposed.

2) Yes OK but my point is that the entire history of Australia is limited to only a few things which while important there is a lot of things to cover including but not limited to many of the things I mentioned in my other post.

Firstly, who said anything about paying money? And why shouldn't a descendant of Jack the Ripper appologise on behalf of his family?

I know that there is a UN resolution that states that descendants can not be held responsible for the actions of their ancestors, who and if you bothered to read articles you would see that there are people demanding compensation in the form of cash. http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,23207882-29277,00.html check the second half of the article you will find what you deny

Thirdly, Aboriginal People did plenty to further the human race, it's just that white-settlers destroyed most of it with their invasion and wiped out many who could further develop great advances for our species

Can you name these things that the abo's did before the first fleet arrived

Originally Posted by Sneaking Up Behind You
As for the two "problems"

1.) Howard hijacked the history curriculum. See ABC new's "Howard urges history curriculum revamp": Here
with related section "State ministers excluded"
The Age's "Howard rewrites history curriculum":
Here

More relevantly there is "John Howard's history 'too white'" from the courier mail: Here

and now "Rudd to scrap Howard's history" in the age: Here

2.) I never said other PM's did not also neglect this issue. There has been a systematic ind institutionalised ignorace of this topic for a long time. That is my point.

You really should learn a thing or two about our political history and basic epistemology before you go on a blind reply!

Perhaps yous should learn a thing or two (Andaras?) before you come out and attempt to say that I am wrong.

Wow, what a retort! And I make a habit of not revealing my puppets and their related forum users.

Lets us begin shall we, I am very glad that you know about our explorers and many of your classmates do too not knowing which state you had your schooling (not to mention which school), I had mine in the NSW and SA school systems, and I learnt a lot about our explorers in NSW not so much in SA my brother has done all his schooling in SA and I know for a fact that he has not been taught about as much and this is the fault of one the SA government though its education department and amongst the some incompetent teachers that actually lack the basic knowledge on what they are teaching, (yes I learnt about Ayre but I was actually referring to John Edward Eyre, pointing holes in the curriculum may not help my argument but it inhibits yours, and if you are Andaras then I am shocked that you don't know about the 1980 strikes)

Oh, as in Eyre Penninsula. I only know a little about him, but still. I was educated in SA. Glenunga International High School. Perhaps your brother should change school. And yes, I know of the 1980 strikes. I thought you said 1890.

You state that Howard took over the history curriculum nationally across Australia and you attempted to prove this by showing me a couple of articles. Now his 'blue print' for history teaching in years 9-10 only never actually went through and thus the history curriculum has stayed under the control of the State Education departments. And not John Howard as you claim. And I actually had finished my schooling before this plan was proposed.

I don't deny our History curriculum has problems prior to Howard. It did. However I said a gaping hole in the national history program of The (dis)Hon. Mr. Howard. You will note I never said his plan was implemented, only that his plan had this hole in it, as does our present curriculum.

Yes OK but my point is that the entire history of Australia is limited to only a few things which while important there is a lot of things to cover including but not limited to many of the things I mentioned in my other post.
Quite so, but surely some aboriginal history should be included. There was none on mine until Uni last year, and that was only for three weeks, at two lectures a week.


Originally Posted by Sneaking Up Behind You View Post
Firstly, who said anything about paying money? And why shouldn't a descendant of Jack the Ripper appologise on behalf of his family?
I know that there is a UN resolution that states that descendants can not be held responsible for the actions of their ancestors, who and if you bothered to read articles you would see that there are people demanding compensation in the form of cash. http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599...-29277,00.html check the second half of the article you will find what you deny.

I dont deny it. Let me rephrase, who IN THE GOVERNMENT has proposed monetary reparations, and how likely are they to form a majority. And an appology does not count as "punishment". check the dictionary. Its under 'P':

Originally Posted by Sneaking Up Behind You View Post
Thirdly, Aboriginal People did plenty to further the human race, it's just that white-settlers destroyed most of it with their invasion and wiped out many who could further develop great advances for our species
Can you name these things that the abo's did before the first fleet arrived

Here is a short list:
1) The most developed form of comunication. Unlike our text which normally has a single meaning, or perhaps two in the case of a parable, one symbolic picture, such as that of a fish, can comunicate many things (The greatest I know is 14 in one picture), it is an illustration, a story, a creation myth, an instruction, a map and a signature.

2) Tracking. Not unique to the aboriginal people, but they have developed the most accurate. their tracking at the arrival of the first fleet surpasses that of any of out millitary personnel training (and most if not all other nations) purely because we have not sought out that dieing resource.

3) Medicine. No, I cannot prove they developed medicine first, but they certainly discovered over 2000 natural remedies that have since been verified, many adopted, by pharmacutical research. Makes the celebration of the penecilum mould look a bit less impressive now, doesn't it?

Also "Aborigines" is offensive, but "Abo's" is just plain racist.