NationStates Jolt Archive

http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/02/12/america/12spy.php

They arrested 2 Chinese spies. One was giving information about Taiwan buying arms and the other was giving away Boeing space shuttle secrets.. I thought China was my friend!

You thought wrong. China is a threat, a BIG threat.

If convicted and found guilty they should be shot for treason, as they were naturalized citizens.

http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/02/12/america/12spy.php

They arrested 2 Chinese spies. One was giving information about Taiwan buying arms and the other was giving away Boeing space shuttle secrets.. I thought China was my friend!

Here's what I think about spies:

Captain Darling: So you see, Blackadder, Field Marshall Haig is most anxious to eliminate all these German spies.
General Melchett: Filthy hun weasels, fighting their dirty underhand war!
Captain Darling: And fortunately, one of our spies ...
General Melchett: Splendid fellows, brave heroes risking life and limb for Blighty!

Every nation steals secrets from every nation - if the UK isn't spying on the US, well I'd question their intelligence.

I wonder what kind of diplomatic results this will have... It'll probably be business as usual, since this kind of espionage has probably been going on for plenty of years between the US and China. Whatev...

I vote for an invasion.

It's just business as usual.

The US and the USSR would have gone to war a hundred times over if catching a spy was a big deal. Hell the stories about the U.S. embassy in Moscow are pure comedy. They had to abandon at least one I think.

I don't even want to know how many of them are sitting in this rail gun program...

Tai Shen Kuo sounds very Taiwanese as a name to me, if it was Mainland you'd expect Guo, not Kuo.

Just to reiterate that spies come from anywhere and everywhere and as HSH says, if it was worth going to war over we'd never be out of war.

Tai Shen Kuo sounds very Taiwanese as a name to me, if it was Mainland you'd expect Guo, not Kuo.

Just to reiterate that spies come from anywhere and everywhere and as HSH says, if it was worth going to war over we'd never be out of war.

True, but the spies should be executed.

I thought China was my friend!
China? Our friend? (Maniacal laughter) What world do you live in?

As long as you don't mind condemning any American spies caught for execution m'kay?

That's always been the rules of the game. China (or indeed most of our enemies) probably wouldn't announce it, just disappear them and that's the end of it. Hence all those gold stars on the wall at CIA headquarters. The only people our enemies ever formally denounce as "spies" are soldiers caught in uniform (or kidnapped from international waters) and hapless tourists.

True, but the spies should be executed.

As long as you don't mind condemning any American spies caught for execution m'kay?

That's always been the rules of the game.

Ahh, but some people don't like the rules of the game when it applies to them. That's what I rather dislike about some of the posters here. They'll scream about the rules, when it's somebody else who has to follow them, but scream against the rules when it's them who have to follow through.

It's obvious we have a better intelligence program than they do. None of our spies have been captured.

It's obvious we have a better intelligence program than they do. None of our spies have been captured.

Sarcasm?

Sarcasm?

Of course.

I think we should subject the spies to Chinese water torture...okay, not really, but they should either be deported or else imprisoned for a long, long time.

I think we should subject the spies to Chinese water torture...okay, not really, but they should either be deported or else imprisoned for a long, long time.

Yeah, execution is a bad idea. Usually they give them a reasonably long prison sentence, and maybe at some point in that sentence, the country they spied for catches one of ours, so we make a trade. Immediate deportation isn't so hot, you don't throw away your bargaining chips that easily.

im in your basez, stealin your informations

I bet the US will hand over the Chinese Spies now that they know what they were looking for and once the Chinese take them back they're just going to disappear. Plain and simple.

im in your basez, stealin your informations

lol

surely China could just ask for information on how to make their own space shuttle :confused:

also isn't there flaw in trying to get intellegence from America :D

Yeah, execution is a bad idea. Usually they give them a reasonably long prison sentence, and maybe at some point in that sentence, the country they spied for catches one of ours, so we make a trade. Immediate deportation isn't so hot, you don't throw away your bargaining chips that easily.

The spies are naturalized US citizens. That makes what they did treason.

The answer to treason is the death penalty, usually by a firing squad. Isn't that what happened to the Rosensomethings during the Cold War?

I don't see how it is different now.

Isn't that what happened to the Rosensomethings during the Cold War?

Rosenbergs.

They got the chair.

Rosenbergs.

They got the chair.

That's right.

I'd vote firing squad for these guys, however.

also isn't there flaw in trying to get intellegence from America :D

LOL that was priceless. (P.S. You misspelled IntellIgence.)

http://www.imagehosting.com/show.php/1573586_spypic.JPG

http://www.imagehosting.com/show.php/1573586_spypic.JPGGot nothing to say, huh?

True, but the spies should be executed.

Dead spies don't provide potentially useful counter-intelligence. They are far more useful alive and in your custody.

The spies are naturalized US citizens. That makes what they did treason. ...The answer to treason is the death penalty, usually by a firing squad.


"Whoever, owing allegiance to the United States, levies war against them or adheres to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort within the United States or elsewhere, is guilty of treason and shall suffer death, or shall be imprisoned not less than five years and fined under this title but not less than $10,000; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States."

United States Code Title 18,2381 (http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/usc_sec_18_00002381----000-.html)

<Standard I Am Not A Lawyer Disclaimer Here>

I'm not aware of any official declaration of war or other reason to consider China has having the status of "enemy." Mere "spying" cannot be sufficient to establish treason, as even otherwise friendly and even allied states spy on each other all the time. Seriously, this is status quo for international politics. I suppose one could try to invoke the fact that the Korean War isn't technically over, but that seems rather tenuous at best (I would wonder what the space shuttle has to do with it). Arms sales to Taiwan is far more significant, but, again, I am unaware of any active state of war or other hostility, so I am not sure that one can demonstrate the existence of an "enemy" upon which to render either "aid or comfort."

Besides, death by firing squad is neither specifically prescribed nor the only possible punishment for treason. Besides being cliche in a 24 kind of way, this approach to the problem also completely misses the fact that a captured spy is far more useful alive and in custody, as a potential source of counter-intelligence and even double-agency (assisting in identifying, contacting, and converting Chinese spies that aren't already famous for being arrested).

At any rate, 99.9% of the time a spy doesn't do what he does out of some ideological conviction. He does what he does because the money is good or because he wants his family to live. If it's about money, then extremely valuable counter-intelligence is only a better offer away (although, in the case of a spy already publicly arrested/prosecuted, a "better offer" will probably take the form of a reduced sentence or something similar). And the latter possibility is actually a good moral reason to spare a captured spy; duress is a valid reason for mercy.

EDIT: Hocolesqua's point is excellent (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=13443661&postcount=18). Executing or mistreating other state's spies makes it real easy for other states to justify mistreating or executing American personnel. Having a supply of spies on hand to trade for one's own captured people is also highly useful (and, again, status quo for international politics). "Bargaining chips." Exactly.

True, but the spies should be executed.

Not in peacetime. Interrogated, imprisoned and eventually deported, certainly, but it suits all involved to maintain a civilized veneer in time of peace, if only to safeguard our own spies elsewhere.

In wartime, of course, there is only one sentence for spies.

Trollgaard your fetishism for death is quite disturbing...