NationStates Jolt Archive

President José Ramos-Horta of East Timor was shot and seriously wounded Monday, and gunmen attacked a convoy carrying Prime Minister Xanana Gusmão, threatening to further destabilize the struggling young nation.

Officials blamed a renegade military officer who they said was killed in an exchange of gunfire, suggesting that the attacks in Dili, the capital, were an attempted coup.

Mr. Gusmão was unhurt and called on the nation to remain calm. “The state came under attack,” he said. “The attempt to kill the prime minister and president today failed, and only the president was injured.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/11/world/asia/11timor.html?ref=world
It seems then that East Timor's problems aren't over yet...

These people deserve a break. They've never had it easy. First the Portuguese, then the Indonesians, and now general chaos. When will it end? :(

It would be sad to the world if anyone had ever heard of East Timor...

IIRC, don't Australia and New Zealand have peacekeepers there?

Latest I've heard is that José Ramos-Horta is serious, but stable & is to be airlifted to a hospital in Darwin.

Apparently we're going to commit to more boots on the ground there:

Oh great, another interventionist adventure in the never ending craphole that is the Pacific...

Apparently we're going to commit to more boots on the ground there:


Phillip Hudson
February 11, 2008 - 5:43PM

Australia is sending "a substantial" number of extra troops and 50 to 70 more police to East Timor after assassination attempts today on its President and Prime Minister.

Rest of article (http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/timors-failed-coup-crisis/2008/02/11/1202578675927.html)

Hey, why don't this people leave it to us? Our Marine and SF can decimate the whole health of these rebels quickly....

These people deserve a break. They've never had it easy. First the Portuguese, then the Indonesians, and now general chaos. When will it end? :(

Don't forget the Japanese fighting over the place during World War II.

I hope he's OK.

He seemed like an almost unbelievably sensible and moderate leader for such an immature political system. Pretty popular too.

He needs another ten years to be a statesman, though. If he dies, it's a harsh lesson in third-world government: "never mind the hungry people, the leaders need an armoured car."

And the Secret Services weapons must be updated, regularly!

Man, what a bummer. Just as it looked like they might be getting things under control too. He was doing a good job, rebuilding, generally being the kick ass leader they needed. Why do these rebel people do this? Surely they see it only ends up hurting the nation as a whole, and therefore them as well? I mean, under dictatorships and shitty rule, its understandable (if not condonable), but under Horta? You gotta be kidding me.

And the Secret Services weapons must be updated, regularly!

Your posts are very unhelpful.

I wish for once there was peace and quiet.........

Why do these rebel people do this?

who knows ,could be more to it then whats been said to the world as it been sometime that the nation been on our news

And the Secret Services weapons must be updated, regularly!
Your posts are very unhelpful.

Oh, I think J-M was just piggbacking my point. Which was pretty much that the concentration of power which is inherent in leadership distorts priorities. Most of the citizens get no police protection worth mentioning, the leaders get millions worth.

Even a small country needs a lot of protection for the political leaders, and this can appear almost obscenely selfish if the country is very poor. Giving their secret service (palace guard, whatever) the best of the best is only a part of this protection. I think it's a fair point.

It doesn't seem so obscene in a rich country. High level assassinations really fuck with the democratic process, and I don't have to go back far in history to prove that. Israel. Pakistan.

Luckily, Horta was not hit in the head, but in the chest. He's still alive several hours later, he's in an Australian hospital with (no doubt) the best surgeons flown in. He's mentally tough I believe. I think he'll live.

Whether he will ever be healthy enough to lead again is the question now.

Meh. The only thing I'm getting out of this is that the leader of the only serious extra-democratic armed opposition is dead. What's left of his group will fall to bits, the PM and President will recover or be replaced.

All in all, a win for Timor Leste, if you ask me.

I wish for once there was peace and quiet.........

Peace and quiet is not the lot of a bone of contention.

Indonesia tried to steal the whole country. Australia is only stealing their oil. So just now, Australia is East Timor's best friend.*

*EDIT: Unless NZ wants them?

-----------

Anyone watching Steven Smith on Lateline just now?

Meh. The only thing I'm getting out of this is that the leader of the only serious extra-democratic armed opposition is dead. What's left of his group will fall to bits, the PM and President will recover or be replaced.

Double standard!

One leader dies, his side is finished.
Some other leader dies, his side will recover.

You are picking winners.

All in all, a win for Timor Leste, if you ask me.

Mmm, yes I guess. But only because Ramos Horta has established such a presence already (well, twenty years and some close calls before) ... so even if he dies, he's made a mark and set a standard for those to come.

The "rebels" have three or four years behind them. They can die like flies at this stage.

You have to wonder though how much Australia's pretense in East Timor has to do with the gas reserves in the Timor Sea...

One leader dies, his side is finished.
Some other leader dies, his side will recover.
Well, one side is a set of democratic parties that can elect new leaders and retain the basic ideas nad/or policies they are based on. Reinado on the other hand was a warlord with basically no ambition other than personal power.

But beyond that, yes, I prefer a democratic government to a bunch of guerillas.

Well, one side is a set of democratic parties that can elect new leaders and retain the basic ideas nad/or policies they are based on. Reinado on the other hand was a warlord with basically no ambition other than personal power.

But beyond that, yes, I prefer a democratic government to a bunch of guerillas.
I suggest a read of this:
http://www.onlineopinion.com.au/view.asp?article=4584

I suggest a read of this:
http://www.onlineopinion.com.au/view.asp?article=4584
And? I mean, none of that had any relation to what I wrote.

I suggest a read of this:
http://www.onlineopinion.com.au/view.asp?article=4584
Oh, is that an editorial?

Indonesia tried to steal their whole country at the behest of ... guess... Australia and the westerns powers.

And Western countries encouraged the UN sponsored referendum in 1999. Go figure.

Indonesia tried to steal the whole country. Australia is only stealing their oil. So just now, Australia is East Timor's best friend.*


Indonesia tried to steal their whole country at the behest of ... guess... Australia and the westerns powers.

As political parties began to form and emerge inside the country, the Indonesian military headed an operation that backed Apodeti, a pro-Indonesian party that encouraged divisions between the pro-independence parties of East Timor.[citation needed] This led[citation needed] to a brief civil war in 1975 as well as a series of attacks across borders. Indonesia alleged that the East Timorese FRETILIN party, which received some vocal support from the People's Republic of China, was communist. Fearing a Communist domino effect in Southeast Asia—and in the wake of its failed South Vietnam campaign—the United States,[10] along with its ally Australia, supported the pro-Western Indonesian government's actions. The UN Security Council had a unanimous vote for Indonesia to stop its invasion and to withdraw immediately from East Timor’s borders, and was blocked by the United States from imposing any economic sanctions any way of enforcing this mandate.

From a strategic standpoint, the East Timor occupation was valuable,... from an economic standpoint however,... not so much, since the exploitation of the Timor Gap even from that time is cause for international relations headaches.

Indonesia tried to steal their whole country at the behest of ... guess... Australia and the westerns powers.



From a strategic standpoint, the East Timor occupation was valuable,... from an economic standpoint however,... not so much, since the exploitation of the Timor Gap even from that time is cause for international relations headaches.Where's the quote from and how can an SC vote be unanimous if it isn't unanimous?

Oh, I think J-M was just piggbacking my point. Which was pretty much that the concentration of power which is inherent in leadership distorts priorities. Most of the citizens get no police protection worth mentioning, the leaders get millions worth.

Even a small country needs a lot of protection for the political leaders, and this can appear almost obscenely selfish if the country is very poor. Giving their secret service (palace guard, whatever) the best of the best is only a part of this protection. I think it's a fair point.

It doesn't seem so obscene in a rich country. High level assassinations really fuck with the democratic process, and I don't have to go back far in history to prove that. Israel. Pakistan.

Luckily, Horta was not hit in the head, but in the chest. He's still alive several hours later, he's in an Australian hospital with (no doubt) the best surgeons flown in. He's mentally tough I believe. I think he'll live.

Whether he will ever be healthy enough to lead again is the question now.

Well, I just backing your point. The defences will not be useful if there is no skilled guardians.


AND D#mn SOEHARTO for his imbecile to give in to the Western powers. If it was me, I will just using strategic bombers to their cities, bombard their forest, colonize it, etc....

(just a little sarcasm, a joke....)

Unfortunately the quote was from... meh,... the wikipedia entry for Timor Leste. Excuse my lack of sources, but scanned document pages in Indonesian doesn't quite make things easy to understand or to drive a point in these part of the net.

For the '99 UN referendum, times change, yesterday's heroes are today's villains (or vice a versa). I'd say this was another way to undermine another SE Asian nation, then again, I can vouch that the brutality of the occupation forces is what drives that referendum, so I think that referendum is for the betterment of the East Timor.

The only thing I can complain about that Habibie's (the third INA president following the fall of Suharto) wording options of the referendum:

* "Do you accept the proposed special autonomy for East Timor within the Unitary State of the Republic of Indonesia?"

or

* "Do you reject the proposed special autonomy for East Timor, leading to East Timor's separation from Indonesia?" [2]
(Again, apologies because it was taken from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Timor_Special_Autonomy_Referendum)

Supposedly IF they were given Special Autonomous Region status instead of total separation, I'd say they still have the infrastructure backing of INA WITHOUT the military presence.

But that's a speculation.

Indonesia tried to steal their whole country at the behest of ... guess... Australia and the westerns powers.


This is half true.

The Australian government in 1975 was stricken by several crises, most notably the "constitutional crisis" of being essentially overthrown by the monarchy.

There was also the "loans crisis" where a senior Cabinet minister to this day swears he did not sign a massive loan from Saudi Arabia, yet his signature appeared on it. Best explanation available yet is that he had a skanky girlfriend.

Indonesia picked their moment and they got their free kick. Not even Fraser would have sat still for the annexation of East Timor, but the Whitlam Government was on the ropes.

Australia is not a "Western power." Haven't you heard? We're the deputy sheriff. :mad:

From a strategic standpoint, the East Timor occupation was valuable,... from an economic standpoint however,... not so much, since the exploitation of the Timor Gap even from that time is cause for international relations headaches.

Just as the US has suffered reputational suicide and huge cost to the treasury, from the Iraq war, yet certain US businesses have profited vastly from it.

Our democracies are corrupt. *shrug*

Well, I just backing your point. The defences will not be useful if there is no skilled guardians.

You should know that I'm more of a guerilla type. I think all the partisans carry the message, the leader is whoever leads best at the time. Each time you kill a leader, you teach the next in command a valuable lesson.

But democracy doesn't work that way. It brings individuals to the fore, they become champions of the aspirations of many, and when the leader is slain so unfortunately are the aspirations of those who put their faith in the leader.

It's a fault in the system of delegating power. It can be compensated for (by secret service protecting the powerful) but that comes at a cost too.

AND D#mn SOEHARTO for his imbecile to give in to the Western powers. If it was me, I will just using strategic bombers to their cities, bombard their forest, colonize it, etc....

(just a little sarcasm, a joke....)

You have this thing with Soeharto which I haven't got yet.

You are joking about Vietnam? :confused:

Bombing the forest to find the enemy (... whoever lived there before you bombed it ...)

This is half true.


Isn't all world politics made of half truths?


Australia is not a "Western power." Haven't you heard? We're the deputy sheriff. :mad:


Hahaha, excuse me if I laugh, not to offend any conservative Australians, but I thought that statement was a joke at first. It was even more funnier when it turns out that it was true.

(Again, apologies because it was taken from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Timor_Special_Autonomy_Referendum)


There is no need to apologize for interpreting a source.

"This is what I read. This is what I thought." That is scholarship.

*scoots off to edit the wikipedia*

Emm, I was talking at the half-attempt of invasion of East Timor. Like I said before, lets just slaughter those Catholic infidels before they have become a headache to us (like they are now...)

(joking)

Australia is not a "Western power." Haven't you heard? We're the deputy sheriff. :mad:

that Email went out years ago

Hahaha, excuse me if I laugh, not to offend any conservative Australians, but I thought that statement was a joke at first. It was even more funnier when it turns out that it was true.

"Even more funnier" is bad English. Just so you know.

I honestly think John Howard (our Prime Monster at the time) was trying for a cute sound-byte which would play well in the US media. Like "All the way with LBJ." He was playing to the US public, not to his actual constituency.

The more foreigners who took it as a joke, the better. Because I found it deeply humiliating. We don't take a nickel to do the US's dirty work, we can fuck up on our own dime thankyou.

(joking)

I understand.

Indonesians are always joking. It's safer that way.

"Even more funnier" is bad English. Just so you know.


Bah,... and I thought that I was careful enough to hide that English is not my first language.

"It was funnier" or "It amuses me more",... should have used that instead.

"It was funnier" or "It amuses me more",... should have used that instead.
Or "It pleases me mightily..."

Bah,... and I thought that I was careful enough to hide that English is not my first language.

I knew it. You're an American.

Seriously, the statement was addressed to George W. Bush. Johnny was groping around for a cultural reference which dubya would get, and came up with something to do with John Wayne. It's understandable.

EDIT: Hey, I got that wrong! Apparently, Howard was pinged with it by a journalist, Fred Brenchley, and agreed. Not really his words then.

I would have gone with "we are the Sancho Panza of the South Pacific." But then, I wasn't his speechwriter. :)

Don't forget the Japanese fighting over the place during World War II.

That, too.

I understand.

Indonesians are always joking. It's safer that way.

Not always. We can be so serious sometimes.
Count the Hizbut Tahrir in the serious group...

Bah,... and I thought that I was careful enough to hide that English is not my first language.

"It was funnier" or "It amuses me more",... should have used that instead.

Or 'even more funny'

These people deserve a break. They've never had it easy. First the Portuguese, then the Indonesians, and now general chaos. When will it end? :(

When East Timor acquires nuclear weapons. Frankly, they deserve them.

Anyway, rebels, you FAIL. Not only do you get your leadership killed, but you didn't even kill the President! He's going to gain major sympathy while he's in the hospital, and come back to cheering crowds.

The doctors reckon he should make a full recovery, so that's good news.

The rebels' civilians (the Fretilins are Rebels... To us, at least) now evacuating to our lands! Exodus?

Renaldo is a total scumbag anyways, he collaborated with the Indonesians after the invasion, while over 100,000+ of his own people were murdered.

The rebels' civilians (the Fretilins are Rebels... To us, at least) now evacuating to our lands! Exodus?

Indonesia has such a sparkling reputation over East Timor. :rolleyes:

Particularly the killing & destruction (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liqui%C3%A7%C3%A1_Church_Massacre) caused by pro-Indonesian militias, backed by General Wiranto, after the 1999 referendum.

Indonesia has such a sparkling reputation over East Timor. :rolleyes:

Particularly the killing & destruction (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liqui%C3%A7%C3%A1_Church_Massacre) caused by pro-Indonesian militias, backed by General Wiranto, after the 1999 referendum.

Plus the systematic destruction of Timorese infrastructure so that they should 'die out' after the Indonesians left. The collapse of the East Timorese society is what the Indonesians planned from day one, so that even when they withdraw they could say 'see it's a failed left-wing state because it's not part of Indonesia', it's was in fact Suharto's actual plan.

The 'right' in East Timorese politics are the same blood-soaked individuals who participated as pro-Indonesian militias (and in collaboration with the TNI itself) and are responsible (over 5 years) for the murder of about a quarter of the population.

Fretilin fought for independence, and now it seems that the legacy of Indonesia was made East Timor untenable and thus open ground for 'intervention' (ie neoliberal imperialism).

Thanks God it is Soeharto's problems, not us...

When East Timor acquires nuclear weapons. Frankly, they deserve them.

Anyway, rebels, you FAIL. Not only do you get your leadership killed, but you didn't even kill the President! He's going to gain major sympathy while he's in the hospital, and come back to cheering crowds.

Well for one, when they have nukes, they'd better have the infrastructure backing to support such weapons system. Those thing doesn't come cheap and will cripple their economy if not handled carefully.

Oh, and no doubt that the rebel propaganda machine will make Alfredo Reinado into a rallying symbol or martyr.

Thanks God it is Soeharto's problems, not us...

Short-sighted world view? It's one of Suharto's nasty legacy to the people of Indonesia.

Yeah. That's a disadvantages of becoming a boshelveik (well, at least the openpolitic.org said I am a Boshelveik...)