NationStates Jolt Archive

According to an article in The Guardian, in December of 2006, some people in the German government started drafting a bill that would "punish 'cruel violence on humans or human-looking characters' inside games. Early drafts suggest that infringers should face fines or up to 12 months' jail for promoting or enacting in-game violence." Germany has also proposed similar laws for the EU according to another article I read.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/germany/article/0,,1969920,00.html

Does anyone know if this law was voted on? I'm guessing it wasn't passed since Germany still has video games as far as I know. Was it voted down or is the bill still in progress?

Aren't there any guarantees in the German constitution against this degree of infringement on the freedom of expression? The degree to which violence is censored varies from country to country, but I would have never imagined that a country like Germany would outright ban violent video games, and on top of that, even think of imprisoning people who do play such games.

That game developers would be punished is ridiculous in my opinion. But to punish someone who plays a game is like punishing someone who listens to a speech. That's a big no no. I know that some European countries outlaw hate speech, but is it common practice to punish someone who only listens to it?

The same people that make "Shiesse" videos?




Wow.

Well, there will be no video game market in Germany then! Most games I know involving destroying things.

*** Starts up Return to Castle Wolfenstein ***

:mp5: the government has no right to regulate video games.
ever
at all
for any reason
:sniper:

Man, the Germans are more moralistic than Americans.

What's next, violent movies? Books with violence? Fencing? Gun smileys? Once government gets control, it's hard to stop.

Well, there will be no video game market in Germany then! Most games I know involving destroying things.

*** Starts up Return to Castle Wolfenstein ***

Hm, perhaps someone can confirm this for me.. but didn't RTCW have a lot of nazi imagery removed from the German version for fear of falling foul of anti-nazi laws? I remember it because removing all nazi imagery from a game about.. uhm.. nazis, seems a little odd. But then laws banning certain forms of speech or expression are infamously inflexible when it comes to context.

If they do this, the German gaming community will revolt. I know one who would - a member of my corp in EVE Online. He's mentioned that while his character is a nationalist, he himself is an anarchist.

Woe betide the foes of Arkady Sadik!

Uh... hasn't Germany been banning certain games for a while? Is this really news? Stupid nazis.

They know that video games will just become more retarded if this law catches on, right? Every video game will make you shoot people in bird costumes or whatever and then the furry population will rise like crazy.

Hm, perhaps someone can confirm this for me.. but didn't RTCW have a lot of nazi imagery removed from the German version for fear of falling foul of anti-nazi laws? I remember it because removing all nazi imagery from a game about.. uhm.. nazis, seems a little odd. But then laws banning certain forms of speech or expression are infamously inflexible when it comes to context.

Which is especially odd, considering it's a game where the main object is to shoot nazis or set them on fire.

This is incredibly dumb. Why is it that video games seem to attract this sort of attention?

IIRC, German law already bans any red blood to be shown in videogames.

If you look at history new art forms are always considered dangerous. When novels where invented, they where considered a potentially dangerous waste of time. Now everyone wants kids to go back to novels for no reason other than novels are old.

People used to censor paintings and get seriously angry about "sinful" paintings. The same BS is now happening to video games. I don't know what is wrong with people. They have this insane image of the past that never existed.

IIRC, German law already bans any red blood to be shown in videogames.

That's alright, I can shoot green blooded alien/human mutants instead.

That’s alright, I can shoot green blooded alien/human mutants instead.
Yeah. No biggie, practically speaking.

Though censorship’s never cool.

It won't pass.

IIRC, German law already bans any red blood to be shown in videogames
Ugh. Banning shows of violence does not stop, or even slow violence. What is WRONG with Germany?

What is WRONG with Germany?
The country has been centre-stage at some of the most momentous and bloody political moments in twentieth-century history, and to this day the state is still coming to terms with their consequences.

Regrettable? Yes. Surprising? No.

Japan doesn't cover up their violent past with censorship. Why does Germany have to do that? I think it is kind of surprising that they are continuing to give their government a lot of power after the kind of harm that strategy did in the past.

This is interesting. Will violent video games ban Germany?

Sounds like an attempt to expand some bureaucrat's budget by whoring themselves out to moralists.

Ugh. Banning shows of violence does not stop, or even slow violence. What is WRONG with Germany?

It's a repressive nanny state, for starters. They even ban homeschooling.

http://www.boomspeed.com/looonatic/violentgames.jpg

http://www.boomspeed.com/looonatic/violentgames.jpg

lmfao

This sounds like another one of those stupid ideas that are made by politically correct left-wing dickheads who have nothing better to do with their time. Hopefully this won't pass and those who think that the reason why the increase in violence is due to games, film and TV.

What will these people think of next banning Nationstates because it will make our kids into oppressive dictators

You would think these days Germany would try to avoid looking like a totalitarian state...

What will these people think of next banning Nationstates because it will make our kids into oppressive dictators

Shhh! Don't give them ideas! :eek:

The country has been centre-stage at some of the most momentous and bloody political moments in twentieth-century history, and to this day the state is still coming to terms with their consequences.

Regrettable? Yes. Surprising? No.

Well, thats what you get when the world instantly forces liberalism onto a nation that was doing just fine slowly evolving into it.

But did we learn anything from the excellent, model democracy that was the Weimar Republik? Nope, we just did the same thing after WWII....

I think that the world needs to realize that before Nazi-ism, Germany did indeed exist, and wasn't a pseudo-Nazi evil nation. (Many people that I have talked to seem to think that there is no German history, that is not Nazi history).

So some mistakes were made, Lincoln declared war on another nation because he wanted to usurp their land, the occupation was brutal, and the civil rights were spotty at best, yet he is hailed as a national hero, and his crimes have been turned into glorious feats, no one gives America crap.

http://www.boomspeed.com/looonatic/violentgames.jpg

I *http://www.msnemotions.org/emoticons/food/pie.png* John Kovalic.

*http://www.msnemotions.org/emoticons/food/pie.png* is used here in exchange for the expression of love commonly denoted by a human heart. What I mean to say is that I really like his drawings, what can I say, I'm a Munchkin!

Does anyone else notice a problem?

Like Germany going out of its way to try and censor video game contents, yet allowing an even bigger and more atrocious video game related obscenity continue in the form of Uwe Boll?

:upyours:

Like Germany going out of its way to try and censor video game contents, yet allowing an even bigger and more atrocious video game related obscenity continue in the form of Uwe Boll?

Uwe Boll has incited more violence than any videogame. The IMDB boards for his movies look like 1945 Dresden.

Uwe Boll? :confused:

If you don't know who he is, consider yourself blessed.

Does anyone else notice a problem?

Like Germany going out of its way to try and censor video game contents, yet allowing an even bigger and more atrocious video game related obscenity continue in the form of Uwe Boll?

:upyours:

Video games don't make people violent, but Uwe Boll films do.

Uwe Boll? :confused:

If you don't know who he is, consider yourself blessed.

Being curious, normally I'd want you to elaborate, but in this case...well, I'll take your word for it. :)

Well I happen to love playing suspenseful horror games involving evil monsters, demons and artificially-produced monstrosities jumping out and doing very violent and nasty things to people, with lots of blood spurting out, so if this ever does come to pass, I can safely say I will never emigrate to Germany.

You would think these days Germany would try to avoid looking like a totalitarian state...

I was just thinking that.

Hm, perhaps someone can confirm this for me.. but didn't RTCW have a lot of nazi imagery removed from the German version for fear of falling foul of anti-nazi laws? I remember it because removing all nazi imagery from a game about.. uhm.. nazis, seems a little odd. But then laws banning certain forms of speech or expression are infamously inflexible when it comes to context.
Yes, displaying nazi symbols for other reasons than education or documentation is forbidden. Although I am pretty sure that Hindu temples are allowed to display swastikas.

This law is pretty restrictive indeed and I would welcome it to be abolished, but since this law was enacted by the allies after WWII and Germany has only the competence to abolish it since 1990, people got pretty used to it.

According to an article in The Guardian, in December of 2006, some people in the German government started drafting a bill that would "punish 'cruel violence on humans or human-looking characters' inside games. Early drafts suggest that infringers should face fines or up to 12 months' jail for promoting or enacting in-game violence." Germany has also proposed similar laws for the EU according to another article I read.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/germany/article/0,,1969920,00.html

Does anyone know if this law was voted on? I'm guessing it wasn't passed since Germany still has video games as far as I know. Was it voted down or is the bill still in progress?

Aren't there any guarantees in the German constitution against this degree of infringement on the freedom of expression? The degree to which violence is censored varies from country to country, but I would have never imagined that a country like Germany would outright ban violent video games, and on top of that, even think of imprisoning people who do play such games.

That game developers would be punished is ridiculous in my opinion. But to punish someone who plays a game is like punishing someone who listens to a speech. That's a big no no. I know that some European countries outlaw hate speech, but is it common practice to punish someone who only listens to it?

The law had not even put to vote due to the fact that it would probably violate the German constitution. It was more some kind of vote fishing on the part of the CDU/CSU which played on the fears of the elderly of video games.

Guess in every democracy some people come up with strange law proposals for populist reasons.

Uh... hasn't Germany been banning certain games for a while? Is this really news? Stupid nazis.

They know that video games will just become more retarded if this law catches on, right? Every video game will make you shoot people in bird costumes or whatever and then the furry population will rise like crazy.

Banning only in so far as some overly violent games are not allowed to be sold to minors and not to be advertised in media accessible by minors.

Any person over 18 years old can however legally buy them. I myself do this allot.

So overly violent media are basically treated equal to pornographic media, which I for myself can understand.

IIRC, German law already bans any red blood to be shown in videogames.

No it does not.

IIRC, German law already bans any red blood to be shown in videogames.

This sounds like another one of those stupid ideas that are made by politically correct left-wing dickheads who have nothing better to do with their time. Hopefully this won't pass and those who think that the reason why the increase in violence is due to games, film and TV.

What will these people think of next banning Nationstates because it will make our kids into oppressive dictators

Actually the idea is the love-child of our conservatives.

And not the moderate kind of conservatives, but the old-school conservatives.

And not the moderate kind of conservatives, but the old-school conservatives.
Don't forget the boulevard press.

For the benefit of our non-German contributors: Shooters like Counterstrike are known in the German press as "Killerspiele". That just about tells you everything you need to know.

Don't forget the boulevard press.

For the benefit of our non-German contributors: Shooters like Counterstrike are known in the German press as "Killerspiele". That just about tells you everything you need to know.

True, playing on some rather vague fears seem to sell pretty well.

It's a repressive nanny state, for starters. They even ban homeschooling.
Homeschooling isn't allowed in the Netherlands either, it's my guess that it's forbidden in the whole of the European Union. Seen that in the States homeschooling seems to be the exclusive territory of religious fundamentalists and political extremists, I can understand why.

Bah, why can people does not aware the beauty of battle? War games also have obidience and honour in it (well, at least at the military-war games)...

it does not always violence, that's why always searchs for coordinated battles, do not plight to the grimming reapering of the gangster!
LOL....
________________
Seriously, why would the Germans banned games? Wasn't their history, since the first aryans people came, is full of blood spilled themself? They must be lucky!

Homeschooling isn't allowed in the Netherlands either, it's my guess that it's forbidden in the whole of the European Union. Seen that in the States homeschooling seems to be the exclusive territory of religious fundamentalists and political extremists, I can understand why.
I fail to see the logic in that statement. Simply because somone is fed up with our crappy public school system and dosen't have the money for private school dosen't make them a religious fundamentalist or political extremist. What else do you want to ban, Nationstates? It certainly has it's share of political extremists.

no, but a privite business is far more likly to explot someone.

Yes, that's what was wrong with Germany all this time: Violent Videogames. God knows how many hours Hitler whittled away in front of that television playing 'Grand Theft Auto: Munich Massacre' :rolleyes:

Yes, that's what was wrong with Germany all this time: Violent Videogames. God knows how many hours Hitler whittled away in front of that television playing 'Grand Theft Auto: Munich Massacre
*Gasp* LG, I'm suprised! That's just what Germany tells everyone. He aactually spent his time playing "Pretty rainbow ponies".:p

:mp5: the government has no right to regulate video games.
ever
at all
for any reason
:sniper:

The Noo8line5555 is of the chains!

no, but a private business is far more likely to exploit someone.

And people who are noo8lings are more likely to slaughter the English language.

I am actually quite surprised that people here assume that some proposed law, which has never been enacted due to constitutional reasons and lack of support in the parliament, is the official position of the German government.

And speaking of censorship, half of my explanations still have to be allowed by a mod, since I obviously used nasty words like sw*stic* or p*rn*gr*phy.

Homeschooling isn't allowed in the Netherlands either, it's my guess that it's forbidden in the whole of the European Union. Seen that in the States homeschooling seems to be the exclusive territory of religious fundamentalists and political extremists, I can understand why.

It's not illegal in all the EU, I'm pretty certain it's legal in Belgium, France and the UK, although I believe they do have very strict controls involving regular inspections in the former cases and in the UK, realistically if the kids want any sort of qualifications (or arguably university entry), they'll need to sit national exams (GCSEs/A-Levels traditionally).

There are a number of reasons why kids are home-schooled, ranging from poor local schools, isolated location (rural families in particular) or special needs (on either extreme) which won't be dealt with effectively by the school. BUT at last checking, the vast majority appears to be due to 'philosophical' differences, generally evangelicals.

Yes, that's what was wrong with Germany all this time: Violent Videogames. God knows how many hours Hitler whittled away in front of that television playing 'Grand Theft Auto: Munich Massacre' :rolleyes:

LOL!

Hahahahahahaha!! ROFL :D

I always thought he played 'Tanks in Arms: Those Pesky Soviets are jerking me out! Fascist all the way!'

Eh?
I understand banning a game like manhunt or sadistic killers, but banning all violent games?
i suppose it reduces chances of population getting ideas about beating up other people, but still it's a bit lame, i mean that would mean i wouldn't be able to destroy all my enemies in Medieval or Rome.
Why don't they just promote a violent game but with sissy attributes, like having a wrestling game but one where the wrestlers use logic and pretty pictures to decide who wins a battle royale? this would be funny too.

Or maybe they're trying to gain a sense of humour? *hides*

Eh?
I understand banning a game like manhunt or sadistic killers, but banning all violent games?
i suppose it reduces chances of population getting ideas about beating up other people, but still it's a bit lame, i mean that would mean i wouldn't be able to destroy all my enemies in Medieval or Rome.
Why don't they just promote a violent game but with sissy attributes, like having a wrestling game but one where the wrestlers use logic and pretty pictures to decide who wins a battle royale? this would be funny too.

Or maybe they're trying to gain a sense of humour? *hides*

And against games like manhunt, GTA, Gears of War etc. this (turned down) law is directed. Strategic games, like Medieval, Rome etc. were explicitly not covered.

The article just epically fails by explaining this like it also does with a great number other issues, like the accused censorship.

To be frank, the article seems to aim more at beating the ubiquitous anti-German drum instead of delivering any useful information.

Brilliant.

After all, the Japanese have the most brutal, nasty violent games and cartoons on Earth, and look at how violent the Japanese are, right?

Hey, I have a question about German videogame laws:

I know that video games sold in Germany are normally censored - you can't show human blood or Nazi imagery. But what if I bought (for example) Battlefield 1942 in the US, and brought it with me to Germany, and had no intention of selling it in Germany? Would that be legal?

Hey, I have a question about German videogame laws:

I know that video games sold in Germany are normally censored - you can't show human blood or Nazi imagery. But what if I bought (for example) Battlefield 1942 in the US, and brought it with me to Germany, and had no intention of selling it in Germany? Would that be legal?

You are only half right with your analysis of German law.

Video games are not censored by the state and you can display blood and gore.

Yet because too violent video games, like Gears of War for example, are not allowed to be advertised in media accessible to minors and of course not to be sold to minors.
It is however perfectly possible to sell them "under the counter" in any shop or via the internet to adults. You are also able to import them, as long as you do not advertise or sell them to minors.
Just imagine them to be on the same legal status as hc p*rn*gr*phy.

Yet many game companies choose to impose some form of self-censorship to be able to advertise their games in public.

Nazi imagery is forbidden to be displayed in public, but at home you can have them as much as you like.
Yet I believe it is forbidden to import it for other reasons than educational or documentary.

Nazi imagery is forbidden to be displayed in public, but at home you can have them as much as you like.
Yet I believe it is forbidden to import it for other reasons than educational or documentary.

Again, that seems a little odd. Wasn't the original and main objection to it being exported, rather (ahem) vigorously?

Sorry, being a little silly there. ;)

To avoid further confusions, I will briefly explain how these "video game laws" work.

We have some Federal Office called :"Bundesprüfstelle für jugendgefährdende Medien (Federal Department for Media Harmful to Minors)".

As the name suggests, it is not only responsible for video games, but for all kinds of media, be it movie, magazine or else.

If any medium is feared to be harmful to minors, the government can not just ban them, cause this would be censorship, which is illegal under German law.
Neither can the BPjM act on its own. This obviously is a check-and-balance mechanism to avoid abuse.

Instead of this, any citizen can suggest a medium s/he suspects to be harmful to minors to be inspected. Only after such a motion, the BPjM is allowed to act.

The medium under question will be reviewed by a board of experts, which decides about the "harmfullness" of its contend.
Since back in the 70s and 80s, when video games where young, those experts had only experience with writings, pictures and movies, it made some pretty strange decisions, which obviously resulted abroad in some pretty wrong ideas about the censorship of video games in Germany.

If, and only if, this board of experts comes to the conclusion that the medium in question is harmful to minors, it is listed in the "Index of Media Harmful to Minors".
"Indexed" we call this in Germany.

Indexed media can still be produced, imported or be sold in Germany, but they are not allowed to be advertised where minors can witness it, nor can they be sold to minors.
Yet adults are perfectly be able to buy them. I for myself have some indexed games sitting on my bookshelf.

Again, that seems a little odd. Wasn't the original and main objection to it being exported, rather (ahem) vigorously?

Sorry, being a little silly there. ;)

Well, this laws are a relict of the denazification, but as with everything people are afraid to change things which they are used to.

Do WHAT now?

Huh.

I honestly wouldn't know.

Most of the really violent games I bought in the States and took'em home 'cause they were cheaper and easier to get my hands on.

But it is true that some games didn't have a blood-mode in the German version and altered graphics.

Do WHAT now?

Huh.

I honestly wouldn't know.

Most of the really violent games I bought in the States and took'em home 'cause they were cheaper and easier to get my hands on.

But it is true that some games didn't have a blood-mode in the German version and altered graphics.

Out of self-censorship for those games being allowed to be advertised.

Not because they would be illegal to be possessed by an adult otherwise, which indeed would be censorship.

Goodness. From all the news I have been reading about Europe, I get the idea that Europeans who say America is backwards are hypocrites.

As far as I've seen no one ever answered the original question, so I'll give it a try:
In Germany, especially if the Government acts as directionless as our current one, the federal states try to influence country politics.
In this case the whole idea originated in Bavaria, which is sort of our right-wing poster child (like Texas I'd guess..), and never made it anywhere near parliament.

And as a second thought: the proposal was even more ridiculous than it sounds at first because it was drafted so imprecise it could have been the base to ban every computer game short of Tetris.

But well, whatever, its history for now.

*schnippel*
Oh, gut - dann muß ich das nicht alles schreiben. :D Schankedön!

As for the Bundesprüfstelle - they have changed their rulings on some older movies after so-and-so many years, taken some stuff off the index after reevaluation.

But all in all, in my eyes, it's a bunch of old people who have no fun, putting way too much on the index going "Think of the children!" - but only when it comes to bloodshed, gore, and horror. Nudity and porn are a different story, as can be seen in the movie ratings differing in Germany, and let's say, the States.

Boobs? No problem - still rated FSK-12.
Violence? Uh-oh - better go with FSK-16 or 18!

Oh, gut - dann muß ich das nicht alles schreiben. :D Schankedön!

As for the Bundesprüfstelle - they have changed their rulings on some older movies after so-and-so many years, taken some stuff off the index after reevaluation.

But all in all, in my eyes, it's a bunch of old people who have no fun, putting way too much on the index going "Think of the children!" - but only when it comes to bloodshed, gore, and horror. Nudity and porn are a different story, as can be seen in the movie ratings differing in Germany, and let's say, the States.

Boobs? No problem - still rated FSK-12.
Violence? Uh-oh - better go with FSK-16 or 18!

Gern geschehen ;)

As far as I've seen no one ever answered the original question, so I'll give it a try:
In Germany, especially if the Government acts as directionless as our current one, the federal states try to influence country politics.
In this case the whole idea originated in Bavaria, which is sort of our right-wing poster child (like Texas I'd guess..), and never made it anywhere near parliament.

And as a second thought: the proposal was even more ridiculous than it sounds at first because it was drafted so imprecise it could have been the base to ban every computer game short of Tetris.

But well, whatever, its history for now.

Actually I did, but my answer had been censored by the board for using such nasty words as p*rn*graphy and sw*stik*. ;)

Boobs? No problem - still rated FSK-12.
Violence? Uh-oh - better go with FSK-16 or 18!

Yes, Germany is indeed a wonderland.

Every nation has censorship. There's always someone noticing something they don't like is being focused on more than they like. New and shocking things can be very popular, which puts them "in the face" of the people who don't like them; then those people fear their society is being overrun with such things.

And, of course, anything imported into one society from another is going to be different and weird. American films are absurdly violent in Europe; European films are obscenely sexual in America. If either becomes fanatically popular imports, protectionism arises until public acceptance stabilizes once more.

I have a headache!

What about games that BPjM refuses to rate? Why would they refuse to rate a game and what does that mean for its status in Germany?

According to Wikipedia, Dead Rising, Crackdown, and Gears of War did not get a rating, and since Microsoft doesn't publish unrated games, the German version of the game was never published. What if the publisher is willing to publish an unrated game? Can it still be sold?

The same people that make "Shiesse" videos?




Wow.Shooting videos? Cut off the extra "e" and it would be spelled right.

What about games that BPjM refuses to rate? Why would they refuse to rate a game and what does that mean for its status in Germany?

According to Wikipedia, Dead Rising, Crackdown, and Gears of War did not get a rating, and since Microsoft doesn't publish unrated games, the German version of the game was never published. What if the publisher is willing to publish an unrated game? Can it still be sold?Yes and no. Not getting rated means no advertising and only selling from behind the counter if the person asks for it. That Microsoft won't publish unrated games means no German version for sale, which will result in only English or other language versions being sold. Dead Rising has been indexed and is not legal for sale at all.

What about games that BPjM refuses to rate? Why would they refuse to rate a game and what does that mean for its status in Germany?

According to Wikipedia, Dead Rising, Crackdown, and Gears of War did not get a rating, and since Microsoft doesn't publish unrated games, the German version of the game was never published. What if the publisher is willing to publish an unrated game? Can it still be sold?

You confuse the BPjM and the USK.

The BPjM does not rate and is not allowed to refuse any game to be inspected.

If the USK on the other hand just refuses to rate a game, it is jdirected to the BPjM where it is decided if it is to be indexed or to be sold "above the counter" with an 18+ rating.

Yes and no. Not getting rated means no advertising and only selling from behind the counter if the person asks for it. That Microsoft won't publish unrated games means no German version for sale, which will result in only English or other language versions being sold. Dead Rising has been indexed and is not legal for sale at all.

Untrue.

Indexed media are perfectly legal to be sold "under the counter".

Not rated are given to the BPjM as I have justread now.

Untrue.

Indexed media are perfectly legal to be sold "under the counter".Dead Rising isn't. You'll find all store-held copies were confiscated and it's illegal to sell it now.

Dead Rising isn't. You'll find all store-held copies were confiscated and it's illegal to sell it now.

But not because of the BPjS, but because the Amtsgericht Hamburg decided it to be in violation of §131 StGb.

It is however still be allowed to own, but not to sell.

But not because of the BPjS, but because the Amtsgericht Hamburg decided it to be in violation of §131 StGb.

It is however still be allowed to own, but not to sell.Yup.

wheres hitler when u need him he would find a final solution for thoes dasterdly game creators and thier followers

Sleak;13430006']wheres hitler when u need him he would find a final solution for thoes dasterdly game creators and thier followers
As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one.
The rule does not make any statement whether any particular reference or comparison to Hitler or the Nazis might be appropriate, but only asserts that one arising is increasingly probable. It is precisely because such a comparison or reference may sometimes be appropriate, Godwin has argued that overuse of Nazi and Hitler comparisons should be avoided, because it robs the valid comparisons of their impact.Sourcy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_Law)

Now look what you did.

Won't this run afoul of EU trade laws? I'm fairly certain that EU law prevents this sort of thing (1 country having stricter trade laws then another).

But not because of the BPjS, but because the Amtsgericht Hamburg decided it to be in violation of §131 StGb.

It is however still be allowed to own, but not to sell.

Can you explain what that means? What is Amtsgericht Hamburg and what does §131 StGb say? And how is that not censorship?

Also, is it true that instead of blood, some games show springs come out of wounds?

Can you explain what that means? What is Amtsgericht Hamburg and what does §131 StGb say?
Amtsgericht Hamburg is the district court of Hamburg and §131 StGB is an article of the German penal law, which bans the "extensive and inhumane description of violence".

Usually such things as snuff movies are covered by it and I actually know only 2 video games, which are: Manhunt and Dead Rising. Although I believe that the decision against Dead Rising is wrong.
And how is that not censorship?
I guess it is as much as banning Child P*rn*graphy is censorship.

Furthermore it is not been done by the government, but by a court, which is independent from the government, it is not done before the games is published, but only after a charge has been filed and you can appeal against the judgement. All things which are not true for censorship.

Also, is it true that instead of blood, some games show springs come out of wounds?
I know no game where such a stupid thing happens.

I guess it is as much as banning Child P*rn*graphy is censorship.
Eh?

Are you equating Dead Rising and child porn? I don't think you are, but the above comment confuses me.

Man, the Germans are more moralistic than Americans.

Elect Hillary, with her Family Entertainment Protection Act, and the moralism scales will return to normal.

Eh?

Are you equating Dead Rising and child porn? I don't think you are, but the above comment confuses me.

No, no, no.

I have already mentioned that the Dead Rising ruling is plainly wrong.

As I said, this law is mainly for things like snuff movies etc. as I understand it.
And for this, I believe that there is no moral difference to the thing I mentioned.

Elect Hillary, with her Family Entertainment Protection Act, and the moralism scales will return to normal.
That is completly wrong! Moralism scales will tip in Americas favor, transforming us back into a Victorian society with modern technology.:eek:

Amtsgericht Hamburg is the district court of Hamburg and §131 StGB is an article of the German penal law, which bans the "extensive and inhumane description of violence".

Usually such things as snuff movies are covered by it and I actually know only 2 video games, which are: Manhunt and Dead Rising. Although I believe that the decision against Dead Rising is wrong.

I guess it is as much as banning Child P*rn*graphy is censorship.

Furthermore it is not been done by the government, but by a court, which is independent from the government, it is not done before the games is published, but only after a charge has been filed and you can appeal against the judgement. All things which are not true for censorship.

I know no game where such a stupid thing happens.

You say the decision against Dead Rising is wrong, what about Manhunt?


I am surprised that a court can ban something.

I guess your definition of a court is different from mine, but I consider a court to be part of the government. So I would say it is done by the government. Also, I still consider it censorship if the decision is made after the game's released and even if you can appeal the decision. I mean, you should be able to appeal any decision by the government, whether its a ban or a censorship, not that I really see the difference.

Laws that bar games from being advertised or displayed on store shelves may not be an outright ban, but they are still very limiting. Since the game is so limited, the publishers then have to change lots of stuff in the game to make money. And even though its self censorship, its imposed on them by the government.

Laws that bar games from being advertised or displayed on store shelves may not be an outright ban, but they are still very limiting. Since the game is so limited, the publishers then have to change lots of stuff in the game to make money. And even though its self censorship, its imposed on them by the government.
Exactly. If nobody knows about it, how will you be able to sell it and make money?

This sounds like another one of those stupid ideas that are made by politically correct left-wing dickheads who have nothing better to do with their time.

And yet the more right-winged governments like the USA and Germany are the ones with the bans and yet countries like Canada and Sweden aren't having a very big problem with this.

And yet the more right-winged governments like the USA and Germany are the ones with the bans and yet countries like Canada and Sweden aren't having a very big problem with this.
The thing is, in those countries Political Correctness hasn't infected the government...yet.:eek:

And yet the more right-winged governments like the USA and Germany are the ones with the bans and yet countries like Canada and Sweden aren't having a very big problem with this.

Whoa, I don't know where you got this idea from, but the US government does not ban speech. Time and again, the courts have ruled it unconstitutional to bar even children under 18 from buying any video games. There are no restrictions on advertising or displaying of games. The US is more touchy on the subject of obscenity, but no game has been restricted due to obscenity either. Porn is not banned or censored. It simply cannot be sold to minors. I think even that is wrong, since even that should be protected speech.

Any rating system we have in the US is private, and is unenforceable.

The US even allows hate speech, which I think is illegal in most if not all other Western countries.

As far as speech goes, the US is one of the least restrictive countries I know of. And in the US, speech is considered any sort of expression like art, music, video games, movies, and actual speech.

As an American judge put it, "In this country, the state lacks the authority to ban protected speech on the ground that it affects the listener's or observer's thoughts and attitudes."

You say the decision against Dead Rising is wrong, what about Manhunt?


I am surprised that a court can ban something.
A court can't ban anything, but rule that it violates a law. I am not sure, but somehow this strikes me like a thing courts usually do.

I guess your definition of a court is different from mine, but I consider a court to be part of the government. So I would say it is done by the government. Also, I still consider it censorship if the decision is made after the game's released and even if you can appeal the decision. I mean, you should be able to appeal any decision by the government, whether its a ban or a censorship, not that I really see the difference.

No, a court is not part of the government, but independent. Though it is of course a part of the state.

Has something to do with the separation of power.

Laws that bar games from being advertised or displayed on store shelves may not be an outright ban, but they are still very limiting. Since the game is so limited, the publishers then have to change lots of stuff in the game to make money. And even though its self censorship, its imposed on them by the government.

How much the indexing of a game makes sense and is actually necessary is a different question. I believe it to be over-protective, but fact is that an indexed game can be legally sold to, bought and be owned by an adult.

Will the indexing procedure somehow abolished in the near future?
Most probably not, because indexing is a love-child of the German conservatives, which obviously expect Sodom and Gomorrah if our minors are not protected from this stuff.
You know, its a "Doesn't anybody think of the children" thing, which the German conservatives tend to do.

As a side note, I somehow suppose that being indexed somehow makes a game more attractive to many, so I am not even sure if it will have a negative effect on the sales of a game.
I am for my part not sure, if I would have bought Gears of War if it wouldn't be indexed or if I would just have thought it to be just another ego-shooter among hundreds.

Whoa, I don't know where you got this idea from, but the US government does not ban speech. Time and again, the courts have ruled it unconstitutional to bar even children under 18 from buying any video games. There are no restrictions on advertising or displaying of games. The US is more touchy on the subject of obscenity, but no game has been restricted due to obscenity either. Porn is not banned or censored. It simply cannot be sold to minors. I think even that is wrong, since even that should be protected speech.

Any rating system we have in the US is private, and is unenforceable.

The US even allows hate speech, which I think is illegal in most if not all other Western countries.

As far as speech goes, the US is one of the least restrictive countries I know of. And in the US, speech is considered any sort of expression like art, music, video games, movies, and actual speech.

As an American judge put it, "In this country, the state lacks the authority to ban protected speech on the ground that it affects the listener's or observer's thoughts and attitudes."

Is it legal to advertise hc porn in public and to sell it openly, where minors can see it?

thier was a case in the u.k where a minor whom played a certain 18 rated game with a ton of volonice on people acted out what he played
said game was took off the shelves

thier was a case in the u.k where a minor whom played a certain 18 rated game with a ton of volonice on people acted out what he played
said game was took off the shelves

This is called a "kneejerk reaction". So called because there is zero thought behind it. A bit like when some psycho went and shot up a school, so all handguns got banned outside of strictly licensed clubs.

The psycho was a member of a.. erm.. strictly licensed club. That law would have done nothing.

Seriously, some people are idiots.

This sounds like another one of those stupid ideas that are made by politically correct left-wing dickheads who have nothing better to do with their time. Hopefully this won't pass and those who think that the reason why the increase in violence is due to games, film and TV.

What will these people think of next banning Nationstates because it will make our kids into oppressive dictatorsThat's Bullshit. Conservatives are the ones that try to ban games and movies, whether it's Beckstein in Germany or Thompson in the US.

Can you explain what that means? What is Amtsgericht Hamburg and what does §131 StGb say? And how is that not censorship?Why would anyone claim that it's not censorship? The question is whether it is acceptable censorship.

Also, is it true that instead of blood, some games show springs come out of wounds?I doubt it. I've seen green blood in some, no blood in others (Turok), and the sound of can being crushed instead of a squishy sound (CnC 1 and Red Alert 1).

A court can't ban anything, but rule that it violates a law. I am not sure, but somehow this strikes me like a thing courts usually do.

No, a court is not part of the government, but independent. Though it is of course a part of the state.

Has something to do with the separation of power.

American and German courts are different then I guess. In the US the judiciary is considered to be one branch of the government, along with the legislature and the executive.

And a court here can never decide that since a game violates a law it should be banned, censored, or indexed. That's is left up to the executive. If there were a law against violent video games, the executive would most likely have an agency that decides which games deserve to be limited by this law. If the executive decides that it does, someone could take the case to court, and the court could simply decide whether the game really deserves to be placed under the restrictions or not. But it must wait for the executive or legislature to decide first in order to review their actions. It seems to me that in the case of a judge deciding that something should be indexed or whatnot, it is enforcing the law, which is the job of the executive branch.

Is it legal to advertise hc porn in public and to sell it openly, where minors can see it?

I don't know about that. Girls Gone Wild is advertised after certain hours, though, I am not sure if that restriction is governmental or private. I have a feeling the channel itself restricts advertising GGW before a certain hour. But then again, that's not hc porn. I have never seen or heard of hc porn being displayed or advertised on tv, other than maybe channels like Playboy. But I am guessing that is self censorship however. Ratings would be hit hard by advertisements of hc porn.

thier was a case in the u.k where a minor whom played a certain 18 rated game with a ton of volonice on people acted out what he played
said game was took off the shelves

That was Manhunt I believe, but the law was overturned.

Why would anyone claim that it's not censorship? The question is whether it is acceptable censorship.

Well, I learned from this thread that censorship is illegal according to the German constitution. So, it is argued that indexing is not censorship.

However, I think it's obvious that it is in fact censorship. And I would argue that there is no such thing as acceptable censorship. The only time I would allow for restrictions on expression is when the expression purposely creates an imminent danger of inciting violence.

That is, of course, governmental censorship. Parents should and do in fact have the right to limit what their children watch, play, listen to, etc.

Man, the Germans are more moralistic than Americans.
No, the CDU are more 'moralistic', everyone else is quite chillaxed about the situation.

In the elections for Niedersachsen, the CDU made quite a point about its opposition to "Killerspiele" (Denglisch for extremely violent games), whereas every other party, from the SPD to the Liberalen had no interest in that at all.

Well, I learned from this thread that censorship is illegal according to the German constitution. So, it is argued that indexing is not censorship.Did you bother reading it?
Article 5
[Freedom of expression]
(1) Every person shall have the right freely to express and disseminate his
opinions in speech, writing, and pictures and to inform himself without hindrance
from generally accessible sources. Freedom of the press and freedom
of reporting by means of broadcasts and films shall be guaranteed.
There shall be no censorship.
(2) These rights shall find their limits in the provisions of general laws, in
provisions for the protection of young persons, and in the right to personal
honor.
(3) Art and scholarship, research, and teaching shall be free. The freedom
of teaching shall not release any person from allegiance to the constitution.German Basic Law (http://www.bundestag.de/htdocs_e/parliament/function/legal/germanbasiclaw.pdf) (see page 15)

No, the CDU are more 'moralistic', everyone else is quite chillaxed about the situation.

In the elections for Niedersachsen, the CDU made quite a point about its opposition to "Killerspiele" (Denglisch for extremely violent games), whereas every other party, from the SPD to the Liberalen had no interest in that at all.Let's not confuse the CSU with the CDU. Beckstein has been the most adamant concerning "Killerspiele".