NationStates Jolt Archive

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/02/05/real_id_for_cold_medicine/

They give people like me ammunition. Of course the slippery slope argument is a logical fallacy! Why, one thing would never lead to another! One plus one equals three and freedom really is slavery!

And to think, the UK government is thinking of making an even worse version. Ah well. Say NO2ID (www.no2id.net), say I.
There is always an unintended consequence of any legislation. I see the potential consequences of national ID to be worse than many.

ID cards are expensive to make for a whole population. i mean really expensive, and basically takes the public trust away from the government if the government think the citizens all need watched carefully. Dumb government, no ID cards, just no, never.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/02/05/real_id_for_cold_medicine/

They give people like me ammunition. Of course the slippery slope argument is a logical fallacy! Why, one thing would never lead to another! One plus one equals three and freedom really is slavery!

And to think, the UK government is thinking of making an even worse version. Ah well. Say NO2ID (www.no2id.net), say I.

RFID implants > id cards. *nod*

great! then we'll just have a increase in blackmarket national identity cards.

I'm from bosnia this week!

Next week germany,or maybe iceland would go better with these shoes.:mad:

Here, in Brazil, we have national ID papers, and the result is that it is far easier to steal identities etc. as all officials concern themselves purely with the document, never even looking at the person.

My colleagues (all Brazilians) simply do not understand that you do not need to have a number to be identifiable, and that when you do have a number, you cease to be a person and become simply a record in a database. Never mind, at least I don't have to shout out my number when I walk into the office for them to recognise me, much though they deny the possibility of this.

No. Never. Absolutely not.

This is a slippery slope until the death of America...I know it.

Nope, makes it easier to become someone else!

Persons from states opposing REAL ID may be barred from federal buildings....

Well, hell's bells, I can't serve on a jury! ;)

Considering how much data about people various departments of the British government have been revealed to have lost copies of lately, I wouldn't trust them to run such a scheme properly even if I thought that it was a good idea in general terms...

Its a bad, a really bad idea, I just can't see the British public going for it, and if the goverment do try to push it, then civil disobediance is gonna go through the roof. Poll tax riots anybody?

ID cards are expensive to make for a whole population.
Here an ID costs 5€ in taxes and is valid for 5 years. Really expensive. :rolleyes:

if the government think the citizens all need watched carefully. Dumb government, no ID cards, just no, never.
I'm more concerned with phonetapping and Echelon. ID means that you can show that you're a citizen, and that your identity cannot be questioned.

Considering how much data about people various departments of the British government have been revealed to have lost copies of lately, I wouldn't trust them to run such a scheme properly even if I thought that it was a good idea in general terms...

Incidently (this is completely off topic, related to your sig), I was just at a coffee shop selling only coffee from Fair Trade. It was so good, too...

Here an ID costs 5€ in taxes and is valid for 5 years. Really expensive. :rolleyes:


Figures, please. I'm interested in that. Not that it's the cost that bothers me. I wouldn't want an ID card if they were 10p a dozen.


I'm more concerned with phonetapping and Echelon.


All part of the same thing, really. A national identity registry, such as the one proposed in the UK, will just make it a hell of a lot easier to keep a record on everybody as opposed to just people who the government think might be a problem. If you've not noticed, there seems to be an increasing amount of state surveillance all over the West. 9/11 was a gift to authoritarian asshats the world over.

Why make it easier for the rat bastards?



ID means that you can show that you're a citizen, and that your identity cannot be questioned.

That is one reason why national ID cards are a very bad idea. You believe the card unquestioningly, even if it's fake.

Tell me, if your records in the registry are somehow modified or corrupted, as is increasingly easy to do now it's all becoming computerised under various "e-government" initiatives, who do you think the officials will believe?

And what happens when the registry gets hacked into and all of your personal data (along with everyone else's) is copied off to somewhere else? It'll be like the recent crap hitting the fan in the UK over the DVLA and Child Tax Credit data, multiplied by a thousand. That's what it'll be.

Figures, please. I'm interested in that. Not that it's the cost that bothers me. I wouldn't want an ID card if they were 10p a dozen.


And what happens when the registry gets hacked into and all of your personal data (along with everyone else's) is copied off to somewhere else? It'll be like the recent crap hitting the fan in the UK over the DVLA and Child Tax Credit data, multiplied by a thousand. That's what it'll be.

Current data lost
God yes that was bad, they've lost benefit data, DVLA data, i think they lost some more data recently, a robbery (where the convicts have been caught now), and not to mention the numerous wars we've been dragged into.
I don't even trust any government to look after ID cards if they did come out. And it's one more piece of bureaucratic nonsense to add to the other pieces.

Current forms of ID
You need a certificate to prove marriage, you need your bank details, driver's licence or passport, but to get a passport you need further ID and it costs about £40 to get a new one, birth certificate, hell even a death certificate.
Do you know how much paperwork Solicitors go through? i've had about 30 letters in a year from one about a car crash i was in.
Then there's your national insurence number, why would creating another card make all the rest go away? in what way could it be easier having another symbol saying who you are?

Pilot study
I think the government should run a pilot study on it, if they are going to release it without the public's say so, see how that goes.
Other issues
Not only that but the difference is minute, there are far greater problems to be concerned with than ID cards, like oh i dunno, NHS, sanitation units, prisons, increasing awareness of welfare state, economic issues (house prices), employment, ethnic issues, oil prices, foreign policy etc etc etc...

A new way
I mean sure you need some way to organise large numbers of people, and it's true bureaucracy is the only way, but i think it would be wise to find a new way quickly.

I keep reading all the posts by naysayers and my head involuntarily begins shaking. So far, the only valid complaints I've read are AB's, and that may have more to do with Brazilian attitudes than an evil concerning National ID.

But seriously, how do you verify age and whatnot with over 50 different forms of ID, counting only driver's licenses?

I keep reading all the posts by naysayers and my head involuntarily begins shaking.

Why?

great! then we'll just have a increase in blackmarket national identity cards.

I'm from bosnia this week!

Next week germany,or maybe iceland would go better with these shoes.:mad:Do you live in the States? I can guarantee you'll have a tough time trying to get anything done with German ID there.

Why?Distinct lack of convincing arguments. "It'll be too expensive!" Go ahead and get rid of passports as well then. :rolleyes:

Distinct lack of convincing arguments. "It'll be too expensive!" Go ahead and get rid of passports as well then. :rolleyes:

So the whole civil liberties thing doesn't sway you at all?

I strenuously object to mandatory ID cards. I like that I'm anonymous when I wander around in the world.

If I'm required to carry ID with me all the time, then anyone can find out who I am just by searching my person. I don't want that.

If forced to carry ID, I'd endeavour to get several false IDs as well and carry them all.

So the whole civil liberties thing doesn't sway you at all?I've got a national ID. It seriously doesn't curtail your civil liberties.

Distinct lack of convincing arguments. "It'll be too expensive!" Go ahead and get rid of passports as well then. :rolleyes:

Have you seen the price that the UK passport has jumped by, in order to pay for the National Identity Register and ID card scheme that it is slowly being merged with?

I'll give you a clue: nearly double in only two years (http://politics.guardian.co.uk/homeaffairs/story/0,,2104389,00.html), and it'll probably rise again. All for the NIR, and a shiny little RFID chip that not only reduces the security of the passport (ever hear of RFID hacking?), but also, in the event of an RFID failure, won't even be bothered with. So you could get a fake passport with a microwaved RFID chip, and nobody would even bother to ask questions!

Still think it's a good thing? So that's the economic and security argument blown up, how about the civil liberties one?

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/02/05/real_id_for_cold_medicine/

They give people like me ammunition. Of course the slippery slope argument is a logical fallacy! Why, one thing would never lead to another! One plus one equals three and freedom really is slavery!

And to think, the UK government is thinking of making an even worse version. Ah well. Say NO2ID (www.no2id.net), say I.


Logical fallacy, perhaps, but people aren't always logical. Historical evidence indicates that we will move more and more toward the "papers please, comrade" stereotype of Soviet Russia/Nazi Germany. If GWB scares you now, and Clinton and/or McCain freak you out, imagine the possibilities for abuse in the future. Besides, in states that have already enacted "Real ID" compatible liscences, they've already seen good counterfeits in circulation. I don't always agree with the ACLU, but they're right on this issue. Better to err on the side of liberty.

(a) The national ID is a bad idea, for a number of reasons, some of them already in this thread.

(b) The idea that a meth lab is going to come into a store and buy all the drugs they need there is ridiculous. It isn't like they make meth using a single box of Sudafed or anything like that.

These types of things inconvenience just about everyone, without making us even the tiniest bit safer. It's ridiculous.

I used to think that ID cards were a pretty good idea, until I one day noticed that my rarely used ID card had expired over a year ago and found out that I couldn't get a new one. See, here in Sweden at least, to get an ID card you need to either have an already valid ID card or bring a family member or possibly a close friend (different people were telling me different things) that can vouch for you and I don't have either. So the situation is that I can't get an ID card, and because of that I'm no longer able to buy alcohol and order things online, because picking up packages requires you to show ID. I guess I'm still lucky that I don't do more things that require ID.

ID cards wouldn't hurt most people, but some will fall between the cracks and you'll make life a pain for them.

I've got a national ID. It seriously doesn't curtail your civil liberties.

I guess you don't live in the Netherlands then? Of all the Dutch I've spoken to, I've yet to find one who's totally happy with having to now carry around some form of identification or be fined (http://www.libertysecurity.org/article520.html) just in case they are a terrorist/illegal immigrant/both.

And even if you are Dutch, and are happy with it, are you saying that's not a restriction of your liberty? Seriously, that place used to be the envy of the world for freedoms. Now nobody can go outside their own homes without carrying papers? What a joke! (http://uk.reuters.com/article/oddlyEnoughNews/idUKL2556643120070126)

Distinct lack of convincing arguments. "It'll be too expensive!" Go ahead and get rid of passports as well then. :rolleyes:

Good idea. Borders were a terrible invention.

What's wrong with a state ID card like we have now? It's one more piece of crap I have to carry around. One more thing I have to worry about losing. One more thing people can use to steal my identity. Standardize ID requirements for states, but don't make a national ID card.

No, I think they're a bad idea. I don't think the freedom/security trade off is a good one.

"He who trades freedom for security will achieve neither."(somebodys quote I think). Besides that once they a achieve all this information what's stopping the next government from abusing the info and ID cards.

Have you seen the price that the UK passport has jumped by, in order to pay for the National Identity Register and ID card scheme that it is slowly being merged with?You don't have to pay for a simple ID card? Is your problem with the rising costs of the passport because its being merged? If it weren't merged, would you still have a problem with it?

I'll give you a clue: nearly double in only two years (http://politics.guardian.co.uk/homeaffairs/story/0,,2104389,00.html), and it'll probably rise again. All for the NIR, and a shiny little RFID chip that not only reduces the security of the passport (ever hear of RFID hacking?), but also, in the event of an RFID failure, won't even be bothered with. So you could get a fake passport with a microwaved RFID chip, and nobody would even bother to ask questions!Funny how my position on National ID is completely irrelevant to RFID chips, isn't it?

Still think it's a good thing? So that's the economic and security argument blown up, how about the civil liberties one?When was I arguing economic and security? Besides, the "economic" counter argument has more to do with a botched UK system of paying for it than any real economic problems with it. As for security, you don't need a chip in your ID. If the UK wants chips in their National ID cards, then I oppose that.

So how about the civil liberties one?

I guess you don't live in the Netherlands then? Of all the Dutch I've spoken to, I've yet to find one who's totally happy with having to now carry around some form of identification or be fined (http://www.libertysecurity.org/article520.html) just in case they are a terrorist/illegal immigrant/both.

And even if you are Dutch, and are happy with it, are you saying that's not a restriction of your liberty? Seriously, that place used to be the envy of the world for freedoms. Now nobody can go outside their own homes without carrying papers? What a joke! (http://uk.reuters.com/article/oddlyEnoughNews/idUKL2556643120070126)No, I'm not Dutch. If my location is any indication, then you'd see that I live in a country without the legal requirement to carry it on your person, merely the legal requirement to own one (either passport or ID, or both). In case of a legally authorized entity (police or court) demanding that you show it, you have to. Otherwise, no one can force you to show ID (although that may have consequences of its own, such as not being allowed to buy certain products or having to wait until the police arrives for them to ask for it).

What's wrong with a state ID card like we have now? It's one more piece of crap I have to carry around. One more thing I have to worry about losing. One more thing people can use to steal my identity. Standardize ID requirements for states, but don't make a national ID card.A person that has to check your ID needs to memorize and be on top of over 50 different IDs (let's not forget Puerto Rico and other US territories). Having a national ID will reduce the amount of fraud that happens on grounds of a person not recognizing that that wasn't a Missouri ID at all.

"He who trades freedom for security will achieve neither."(somebodys quote I think)."He who will trade a little liberty for a little security will deserve neither and lose both." Benjamin Franklin

unless a person is a convicted and probable repeat offender of crimes involving serious preminent bodily harm, no one needs to know who the hell anyone is, as long as they behaive themselves.And if they don't, why not have a standard national ID for police to look at?

unless a person is a convicted and probable repeat offender of crimes involving serious preminent bodily harm, no one needs to know who the hell anyone is, as long as they behaive themselves.
(anywhere or any time. that is the meaning of a free country.)

=^^=
.../\...

Figures, please. I'm interested in that. Not that it's the cost that bothers me. I wouldn't want an ID card if they were 10p a dozen.
I gave you the figures. I'll be even clearer.
Italy.
5,42 € taxes for the standard ID ("carta d'identità"). You have to provide 2 photos, too, that's another 3 € at the automatic. That ID is valid also as passport for all countries not requiring a full passport (that is, whole Europe with the exception of CIS). It is valid for 5 years.
Italian driving licences and passports are valid ID, too.


All part of the same thing, really. A national identity registry, such as the one proposed in the UK, will just make it a hell of a lot easier to keep a record on everybody as opposed to just people who the government think might be a problem. If you've not noticed, there seems to be an increasing amount of state surveillance all over the West. 9/11 was a gift to authoritarian asshats the world over.
Ehm... are you aware that:
1.your phone number is registered by the phone company, with your name, address and payment status?
2.your internet connection undergoes the very same rules
3.so does your bank account and your credit/debt card.
4.same goes for health insurances and health services
5.same goes for driving licence and car plate number
6.same goes for taxes
7.same goes for school and universities

etc etc...



You believe the card unquestioningly, even if it's fake.

That's why there are photos and state records. To check for fakes.


Tell me, if your records in the registry are somehow modified or corrupted, as is increasingly easy to do now it's all becoming computerised under various "e-government" initiatives, who do you think the officials will believe?

That's why (at least here in Italy) the original (and definitive proof) is on paper, and kept in safe archives. Also you can appeal and use witnesses.

I've got a national ID. It seriously doesn't curtail your civil liberties.

How much personal data does it carry about you? Name, age, sex, address, NI number, conviction details, what?

I gave you the figures. I'll be even clearer.
Italy.
5,42 € taxes for the standard ID ("carta d'identità"). You have to provide 2 photos, too, that's another 3 € at the automatic. That ID is valid also as passport for all countries not requiring a full passport (that is, whole Europe with the exception of CIS). It is valid for 5 years.
Italian driving licences and passports are valid ID, too.



Ehm... are you aware that:
1.your phone number is registered by the phone company, with your name, address and payment status?
2.your internet connection undergoes the very same rules
3.so does your bank account and your credit/debt card.
4.same goes for health insurances and health services
5.same goes for driving licence and car plate number
6.same goes for taxes
7.same goes for school and universities

etc etc...



That's why there are photos and state records. To check for fakes.


That's why (at least here in Italy) the original (and definitive proof) is on paper, and kept in safe archives. Also you can appeal and use witnesses.

Right. First I just don't believe that any ID card system could be that cheap without being so easily forgeable it's untrue. Sorry 'bout that.

Second, you've grown up with identity cards, no? So you're used to them, and are probably quite used to producing them for any authority figure that asks.

Third, most of the above "identification" methods you've provided are nicely decentralised, can only be hacked one at a time, and are probably more secure than any "national" system. Mostly due to the fact that the bottom line of these businesses depend on data security. They also require search warrants and various levels of due process for a government to seize data. Something that an easy-to-access central register is just not naturally designed for.

Now, please see things from my perspective (and those of probably most Americans as well as British). I have never had a compulsory identity card. They have never been needed. They aren't needed, either. The system functions well enough without them. The only major data breaches in recent times have all come from government systems - which the national identity registry will be. 25 years of IRA bombings and nobody has ever gotten close to suggesting an identity card system without being laughed out of parliament.

Now, because of some terrorist attack 3000 miles away that would never have been prevented even with the worst and most Orwellian of citizen tracking systems, we suddenly need identity cards? Why? What will they prevent that good old-fashioned investigative police work will not?

Why should I have to be forced, at gunpoint, to go to some interrogation centre, be poked and prodded by bureaucrats, stamped with a barcode and made to pay for the "privilege"?

Why should I be made to be tracked and followed in a way that even in today's modern CCTV-powered Britain, is intrusive, expensive and completely unnecessary?

Why should I even have to prove who I am to some jumped up pencil pusher, in order to so much as recieve medical treatment in a health service that is free and available to all at the point of need?

Why should I have to also be made, again at gunpoint, to re-register myself at cost every 5, 10 or however many years, in order to continue to have a license to live in the country in which I was born?

Why is it that the one-time head of MI5 is quoted as saying that identity cards will do little or nothing to prevent the problems that it is stated they will solve? (http://politics.guardian.co.uk/homeaffairs/story/0,11026,1643987,00.html) Terrorism? Illegal immigration? Not unless they are unforgeable, and I think you know that nothing is unforgeable.

Do you think the head of a British security service knows nothing?

Am I in a free country, or some 1980s Soviet bloc?

How much personal data does it carry about you? Name, age, sex, address, NI number, conviction details, what?

You mean details that the government already has?

And if they don't, why not have a standard national ID for police to look at?

We already have that in the UK. everybodies NI number is unieque, easily avilable to our security services, and asinged on registration of birth. There is a volutary ID card scheme in place, but this is a lot differant from the scheme that the goverment wants us to take up.

You mean details that the government already has?

You answer questions with a question?

Right. First I just don't believe that any ID card system could be that cheap without being so easily forgeable it's untrue. Sorry 'bout that.
...you don't believe it's untrue means you believe it's true, right? :confused:
Anyway, no, it isn't easily forgeable. That's why it happens that blank IDs sometimes get stolen... but, since even blank IDs are numbered, it's easy to tell the police "hello, this is the municipality of Milan, we have been stolen blank IDs from number AA348218 to AB482234, take notice and beware that anyone with that ID numbers has got an unauthorised ID".


Second, you've grown up with identity cards, no? So you're used to them, and are probably quite used to producing them for any authority figure that asks.

Yes, as a matter of fact, I have no problem producing an ID when asked to do so by the police or by a public officer. What's the problem? Also, here we aren't compelled to have IDs with us all the time - we just have to own an ID.


Third, most of the above "identification" methods you've provided are nicely decentralised, can only be hacked one at a time, and are probably more secure than any "national" system. Mostly due to the fact that the bottom line of these businesses depend on data security. They also require search warrants and various levels of due process for a government to seize data. Something that an easy-to-access central register is just not naturally designed for.

There have been here in Italy in recent times lots of unauthorised phonetapping scandals. All phonetappings were done by corporate security structures of the phone companies, working for own interests.


Now, please see things from my perspective (and those of probably most Americans as well as British). I have never had a compulsory identity card. They have never been needed. They aren't needed, either. The system functions well enough without them. The only major data breaches in recent times have all come from government systems - which the national identity registry will be. 25 years of IRA bombings and nobody has ever gotten close to suggesting an identity card system without being laughed out of parliament.
I realise that it's difficult to change traditions.


Now, because of some terrorist attack 3000 miles away that would never have been prevented even with the worst and most Orwellian of citizen tracking systems, we suddenly need identity cards? Why? What will they prevent that good old-fashioned investigative police work will not?

IDs have nothing Orwellian in them.


Why should I have to be forced, at gunpoint, to go to some interrogation centre, be poked and prodded by bureaucrats, stamped with a barcode and made to pay for the "privilege"?

Huh? Here no one goes to interrogation centres, or is forced at gunpoint. Maybe you're suffering from the effects of some kind of Orwellian brainwashing about IDs. Ask Frenchmen, ask Germans, too. Maybe you'll change your point of view to something less melodramatic.


Why should I be made to be tracked and followed in a way that even in today's modern CCTV-powered Britain, is intrusive, expensive and completely unnecessary?

So you'll need less CCTV privacy breaching.


Why should I even have to prove who I am to some jumped up pencil pusher, in order to so much as recieve medical treatment in a health service that is free and available to all at the point of need?

Because you have to show that you're a citizen and have right to it even without being at the point of need. Also, why do you despise public officers? (anglosaxon tradition, I guess)


Am I in a free country, or some 1980s Soviet bloc?
Ok, you think that France, Germany and Italy are Soviet countries in the 1980s. Well, there's no need to disqualify yourself like that when debating IDs.

We already have that in the UK. everybodies NI number is unieque, easily avilable to our security services, and asinged on registration of birth. There is a volutary ID card scheme in place, but this is a lot differant from the scheme that the goverment wants us to take up.

CitizenCard! (http://www.citizencard.com/)

But that's not intrusive enough, or compulsory enough. You can quite happily live without one. Don't want that! ;)

...you don't believe it's untrue means you believe it's true, right? :confused:


Insults are not the best way to look good.


Anyway, no, it isn't easily forgeable. That's why it happens that blank IDs sometimes get stolen... but, since even blank IDs are numbered, it's easy to tell the police "hello, this is the municipality of Milan, we have been stolen blank IDs from number AA348218 to AB482234, take notice and beware that anyone with that ID numbers has got an unauthorised ID".


So you're saying that there have never, ever been any cases of forged IDs being used successfully?

And how would you know?


Yes, as a matter of fact, I have no problem producing an ID when asked to do so by the police or by a public officer. What's the problem? Also, here we aren't compelled to have IDs with us all the time - we just have to own an ID.


The problem is that this is a free country. I shouldn't have to be producing ID to all and sundry.


There have been here in Italy in recent times lots of unauthorised phonetapping scandals. All phonetappings were done by corporate security structures of the phone companies, working for own interests.


And the identity cards prevented that?


I realise that it's difficult to change traditions.


Like having to have an ID to do anything? Yes, quite.


IDs have nothing Orwellian in them.


There is nothing Orwellian about being barcoded and tracked wherever you go?

Ever read any Orwell?


Huh? Here no one goes to interrogation centres, or is forced at gunpoint. Maybe you're suffering from the effects of some kind of Orwellian brainwashing about IDs. Ask Frenchmen, ask Germans, too. Maybe you'll change your point of view to something less melodramatic.


Government, at its most elementary, is force. A bigass gun.

Try living without an ID card and you'll see what I mean.


So you'll need less CCTV privacy breaching.


You're right there.


Because you have to show that you're a citizen and have right to it even without being at the point of need.


What part of "available to all" don't you understand?

Not "all who have a card".


Also, why do you despise public officers? (anglosaxon tradition, I guess)


Insults are not the best way to look good.


Ok, you think that France, Germany and Italy are Soviet countries in the 1980s. Well, there's no need to disqualify yourself like that when debating IDs.

Insults are not the best way to look good. Neither are massive assumptions, nor putting words into people's mouths.

You answer questions with a question?

When it seems appropriate. Why would someone object to an ID card on the grounds that it contains information about you that the government already has? Not that I'm saying that a compulsory national ID card would necessarily be a good thing, I haven't decided one way or the other yet.

When it seems appropriate. Why would someone object to an ID card on the grounds that it contains information about you that the government already has? Not that I'm saying that a compulsory national ID card would necessarily be a good thing, I haven't decided one way or the other yet.

Umm perhaps beacuse at the mo this data is not centralised. Identity theft is a growing problem, how much easyer it would be if all of your details where collated. Beside take away the 'security' issues and what are the benifits?

Umm perhaps beacuse at the mo this data is not centralised. Identity theft is a growing problem, how much easyer it would be if all of your details where collated.
This is a much better objection.
Beside take away the 'security' issues and what are the benifits?

I suppose convenience. Though That's not much of a convenience.

Persons from states opposing REAL ID may be barred from federal buildings....

Well, hell's bells, I can't serve on a jury! ;)Local courts are not federal buildings.

ID cards are bad for all the reasons Moonshine has outlined, and more. Even if we - the British - were to shelve the current scheme (which would be far more intrusive than any other in the world), what would replacing it with a simpler European-style scheme achieve?

And here is the nub. Regardless of whether or not we go through with this lunacy, I understand that the EU will at some point force us to have ID cards anyway, regardless of the popular will. This is one of the reasons why the EU really pisses me off: for every positive thing it does, there are at least two that are negative, and probably corrupt, too. And I'm an internationalist with no time for Little Englanders.

I suppose convenience. Though That's not much of a convenience.

Not at the apparent cost anyway.

I gave you the figures. I'll be even clearer.
Italy.
5,42 € taxes for the standard ID ("carta d'identità"). You have to provide 2 photos, too, that's another 3 € at the automatic. That ID is valid also as passport for all countries not requiring a full passport (that is, whole Europe with the exception of CIS). It is valid for 5 years.
Italian driving licences and passports are valid ID, too.


That's a rather different beast to a card that costs upwards of £100.00 (more if you factor in the tax that also funds the scheme), and is completely based on totally untried and unproven technology that will supported be an unprecedently centralised database.

I am skeptical that it is even workable. And I don't really want to fork over a significant part of my wage to what very well could be a white elephant bought with a blank cheque.

I am like moonshine though. I am also against it on philosophical grounds. I just want it shown that it can actually exist before I go to that level.

How much personal data does it carry about you? Name, age, sex, address, NI number, conviction details, what?Name, birthdate, nationality, height, eye color, and legal address.

We already have that in the UK. everybodies NI number is unieque, easily avilable to our security services, and asinged on registration of birth. There is a volutary ID card scheme in place, but this is a lot differant from the scheme that the goverment wants us to take up.Then its not an issue about having a national ID card but an issue about how that is being implemented, isn't it?

Name, birthdate, nationality, height, eye color, and legal address.

Wot no iris scan?

This is what ours will hold :)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4630045.stm

Wot no iris scan?

This is what ours will hold :)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4630045.stmI could show you the wiki page on it, but it's in German. There's a couple numbers on it as well that are linked to the ID card itself, and there's talk of adding biometric data. But that hasn't gone anywhere yet.

I disagree with plenty of the information that's supposed to go on the British ID card, as well as with the Dutch requirement to carry it on your person. Being legally required to own such a document (either passport or ID) and having to show it on proper occasions (when going voting or when appearing in court) is perfectly fine.

I've just remembered another aspect of the British ID card that's pretty damn awful: it may not be compulsory, but refusing to have the card would entail having one's passport rescinded. Nice.

EDIT: OK, so we've established that the British proposals are shit. Would anyone care to explain why, say, the EU should enforce ID cards, even as simple as those carried by, say, the Germans?

I've just remembered another aspect of the British ID card that's pretty damn awful: it may not be compulsory, but refusing to have the card would entail having one's passport rescinded. Nice.Could you back that up? I find that hard to believe until presented with compelling evidence.

EDIT: OK, so we've established that the British proposals are shit. Would anyone care to explain why, say, the EU should enforce ID cards, even as simple as those carried by, say, the Germans?Schengen agreement. You're already required to have one when not in your own country. Might as well have a standard one.

Then its not an issue about having a national ID card but an issue about how that is being implemented, isn't it?

For me, partly.

The National Identity Register is without doubt the most insidious, invasive system of its kind to have ever been designed. I'm not exaggerating. There has been no other device in history that is quite as far reaching. As such I believe it should be opposed at all cost.

However, what I also oppose is the compulsory nature of most national identity cards and systems. Either by law (de jure) or by the fact that you can't function without one (de facto), identity cards are a tax on your existance, and a license to live. They are the very antithesis of freedom.

In Britain, as I have already pointed out, there already exists a completely voluntary identity card (www.citizencard.com) system. It works, it's secure enough for its purpose, and what's more is that it is a genuine convenience. It makes proving who you are easier, but it is by no means the only way of doing so.

Compare that with the scheme thought up by whatever bastards in the Home Office stand to benefit from it, and you begin to see my rather deep felt, vehement opposition to their plan.

How much personal data does it carry about you? Name, age, sex, address, NI number, conviction details, what?

Name, date of birth, height, eye colour, nationality.

Wot no iris scan?

This is what ours will hold :)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4630045.stm

Actually, the Germans are comparitively lucky in that various laws prevent the setting up of a national identity register. Something to do with what some guy with a silly moustache did with a primitive version of one a few decades ago.

Still, compulsory cards. No.

For me, partly.

The National Identity Register is without doubt the most insidious, invasive system of its kind to have ever been designed. I'm not exaggerating. There has been no other device in history that is quite as far reaching. As such I believe it should be opposed at all cost.

However, what I also oppose is the compulsory nature of most national identity cards and systems. Either by law (de jure) or by the fact that you can't function without one (de facto), identity cards are a tax on your existance, and a license to live. They are the very antithesis of freedom.Here I disagree. The compulsory element must be there to ensure that there is a standard ID and a standard on what information is displayed. Having several different IDs valid all across the country is idiotic.

In Britain, as I have already pointed out, there already exists a completely voluntary identity card (www.citizencard.com) system. It works, it's secure enough for its purpose, and what's more is that it is a genuine convenience. It makes proving who you are easier, but it is by no means the only way of doing so.I disapprove of simply voluntary ID systems for the reasons above.

Compare that with the scheme thought up by whatever bastards in the Home Office stand to benefit from it, and you begin to see my rather deep felt, vehement opposition to their plan.Indeed.

Third, most of the above "identification" methods you've provided are nicely decentralised, can only be hacked one at a time, and are probably more secure than any "national" system. Mostly due to the fact that the bottom line of these businesses depend on data security. They also require search warrants and various levels of due process for a government to seize data. Something that an easy-to-access central register is just not naturally designed for.

Now, please see things from my perspective (and those of probably most Americans as well as British). I have never had a compulsory identity card. They have never been needed. They aren't needed, either. The system functions well enough without them. The only major data breaches in recent times have all come from government systems - which the national identity registry will be. 25 years of IRA bombings and nobody has ever gotten close to suggesting an identity card system without being laughed out of parliament.


One question ... how the hell do your libraries handle this?

See, I studied Librarianship, and worked in a good few libraries in my life. In a library, in order to become a member and be allowed to take out books (usually, anybody can read them on the premises, but you need to become a member to take them out) you have to provide the library with your address. Of course, how else would they be able to contact you if you fail to return the books and media?
In Germany, the library will take down your ID number, and can verfiy your adress with the town council that way. Easy.
When I was working in Canada, the libraries had to invent desperate ways to verfiy adresses. One (Goethe Institute) only allowed adults as readers, for the simple reason that most adults have a drivers licence and the adress can be verified that way. Without a drivers licence, it was next to impossible.
Another one would take the adress, mail a letter and the potential new member had to come back with the letter and another proof of ID.

So how do your libraries do it?

Here I disagree. The compulsory element must be there to ensure that there is a standard ID and a standard on what information is displayed. Having several different IDs valid all across the country is idiotic.


Not at all. Nobody says you have to recognise every single last form of ID out there. Most people will have a commonly-found form of identification, such as a driving license, passport, or simply a conglomeration of checkable data. Besides, as I've pointed out, this country has worked as well as any other country in the world, without requiring a national identity card system. It simply isn't needed. There is no case for one. At all.

The only reason I see for forcing people at gunpoint to sign up for a card is as an exercise in power. It's the State saying that they own you. It's your little badge of "belonging" - or should I say "ownership". And I for one won't stand for it.

One question ... how the hell do your libraries handle this?



See my last post ;)

I could show you the wiki page on it, but it's in German. There's a couple numbers on it as well that are linked to the ID card itself, and there's talk of adding biometric data. But that hasn't gone anywhere yet.

I disagree with plenty of the information that's supposed to go on the British ID card, as well as with the Dutch requirement to carry it on your person. Being legally required to own such a document (either passport or ID) and having to show it on proper occasions (when going voting or when appearing in court) is perfectly fine.

For sure. But do you not think it is unreasonable to be forced to pay £170-£230 (LSE figures). Just for the privelege?

I know I don't earn the most, but I certainly don't earn the least. I can also see how affording one could be difficult on some peoples budget.

See my last post ;)

Well, dirvers licences and passports would work. But do you have any idea how many people out there have neither?

Not at all. Nobody says you have to recognise every single last form of ID out there. Most people will have a commonly-found form of identification, such as a driving license, passport, or simply a conglomeration of checkable data. Besides, as I've pointed out, this country has worked as well as any other country in the world, without requiring a national identity card system. It simply isn't needed. There is no case for one. At all.That's why you have a national standard ID.

The only reason I see for forcing people at gunpoint to sign up for a card is as an exercise in power. It's the State saying that they own you. It's your little badge of "belonging" - or should I say "ownership". And I for one won't stand for it.Nah. If that was the case, there would be no "nationality" part of the card. It's the state's way of saying you live there.

Also...


Another one would take the adress, mail a letter and the potential new member had to come back with the letter and another proof of ID.

...that is quite novel. Also pretty foolproof and easy to implement. Yet another reason that a compulsory card is pointless. Thanks!

Well, dirvers licences and passports would work. But do you have any idea how many people out there have neither?

I did until late 2006 when I decided to get a passport before they started putting chips in and turning it into an arm of the NIR.

Managed quite fine, thanks.

So how do your libraries do it?

I'm a bit of a special case, because I don't work at a public library. But we ask for a staff badge or a student ID card. Other hospitals can join on production of a relevent staff badge.


EDIT: I believe when I joined the public I used my Driver's license.

I think non-drivers can use utility bills or bank statements and the like.

Also...



...that is quite novel. Also pretty foolproof and easy to implement. Yet another reason that a compulsory card is pointless. Thanks!

As a method of identification, I think it's very awkward and all-round 19th century, don't you?
It takes and awful amount of time, and money.
And you can't really use the same method to identify someone who showed up in court, or to vote.

Name, birthdate, nationality, height, eye color, and legal address.

Then its not an issue about having a national ID card but an issue about how that is being implemented, isn't it?

Exactly. I have no problems with an ID card proving who I am, for things like verification of age or address, for use in everyday life when these things are required; opening a new bank account, applying for a passport, geting into pubs or clubs, as long as it is a voluntary thing.

What I am opposed to is this national ID database that our goverment wants which will contain your DNA, an RDFI chip, a photo, biometrioc data, and God knows what else. They tell us it will be compulsory, and that we have to pay for it.

All for reasons of security, naaaa, naaa I aint buying that.

I'm a bit of a special case, because I don't work at a public library. But we ask for a staff badge or a student ID card. Other hospitals can join on production of a relevent staff badge.

Well, how do students identify themselves when entering university?
Or starting a job, for that matter?

As a method of identification, I think it's very awkward and all-round 19th century, don't you?
It takes and awful amount of time, and money.
And you can't really use the same method to identify someone who showed up in court, or to vote.

But if I want to use that method, why not? It works.

And how voting in the UK works:

The council has records of where you live.

Come election time, a slip is sent around to your house, with your name on it.

You turn up with the slip, stick an X in the right box, shove it in the big black bin, and go home.

Easy, and about as susceptible to error as any other system.

(edit: you don't even need the slip. Not sure how identity is ascertained without it, but while it supposedly takes longer, it does work. I've just always brought the slip with me.)

So how do your libraries do it?

It seems the same sort of way that our transport fare evader, umm catchers do, they have access to a post code data base(post office?) so when you give your name, and post code they can easily find if you do live there.

Well, how do students identify themselves when entering university?


With a student ID card that's particular to that university. Or an NUS card, UCAS card, whatever.


Or starting a job, for that matter?

You give 'em your NI number. There are ways and means of cross-checking these things. Again, you just don't need a compulsory card.

Well, how do students identify themselves when entering university?
Or starting a job, for that matter?

You make it sounds like we have had long running problems pertaining to positively identifying people due to not having ID cards.


I wonder how people with no passport/drivers license/etc identify themselves robustly enough to gain a new fangled ID badge...

EDIT: On topic, it is a bit in the midsts of time. But I believe I took a letter of acceptance or some such official document and something to pay with and a few photographs.

When starting a job or registering with the jobcentre or an employment agency. I've provided a copy of something with my NI and something else with my picture, name and address on.

But if I want to use that method, why not? It works.

And how voting in the UK works:

The council has records of where you live.

Come election time, a slip is sent around to your house, with your name on it.

You turn up with the slip, stick an X in the right box, shove it in the big black bin, and go home.

Easy, and about as susceptible to error as any other system.

(edit: you don't even need the slip. Not sure how identity is ascertained without it, but while it supposedly takes longer, it does work. I've just always brought the slip with me.)

They send those around in Germany as well. And when you show up, you have to hand in the slip and present your ID.
How on earth would they otherwise know it's you???

Has nobody ever had the idea of going around to people's houses and just going through their trash to find slips that have been thrown out? You could massively rip an election that way...

I wonder how people with no passport/drivers license/etc identify themselves robustly enough to gain a new fangled ID badge...

Birth certificate.

You make it sounds like we have had long running problems pertaining to positively identifying people due to not having ID cards.


I wonder how people with no passport/drivers license/etc identify themselves robustly enough to gain a new fangled ID badge...

I have never had a driving licene, and only recently got my first passport, and in all the interime years I have never failed to open a bank, account, join a library, get housed by the council, get a job, have my wages paid straight into my bank, or any other think where proof of ID was required. We really don't need this ID card. Your NI number coupled with proof of address is normaly fine.

But if I want to use that method, why not? It works.

And how voting in the UK works:

The council has records of where you live.

Come election time, a slip is sent around to your house, with your name on it.

You turn up with the slip, stick an X in the right box, shove it in the big black bin, and go home.

Easy, and about as susceptible to error as any other system.

(edit: you don't even need the slip. Not sure how identity is ascertained without it, but while it supposedly takes longer, it does work. I've just always brought the slip with me.)Over here they send it to you and you have to bring it along with a valid ID (Passport or Personalausweis) to verify that its actually you voting.

Birth certificate.

That is hardly robust.

With a state issued ID card. The individual states make non-driver ID's.Then why not have a standard ID for everyone so you don't have to memorize 50+ ID schemes?

Well, how do students identify themselves when entering university?
Or starting a job, for that matter?

With a state issued ID card. The individual states make non-driver ID's.

I did until late 2006 when I decided to get a passport before they started putting chips in and turning it into an arm of the NIR.

Managed quite fine, thanks.

What, you don't have a driving license either?

That is hardly robust.

Well, it corresponds to the records they have, then you get your ID.
True, you could nick it of someone, but unless you regluarly break into houses and go on extensive search of documents, I don't think you;d get your hands on any.

With a state issued ID card. The individual states make non-driver ID's.

So whats the advantage of this over a national ID card. Or, what makes a national ID card worse, or even different, from a state ID card?

Then why not have a standard ID for everyone so you don't have to memorize 50+ ID schemes?

I know what birth certificates (shockingly easy to forge by the way, so if you were hoping to get a newfangled ID thingummy based on that, then you're off to a bad start already), bank cards, passports, military service documents, drivers licenses, utility bills, bank statements and various other forms of ID look like. In my job at PC World (www.pcworld.co.uk), one of my tasks would be to process finance arrangements with customers. Basically, arrange loans.

They needed two forms of identification, one of which had to have a photograph on it. I had no problem recognising any of the 10 or so types of ID that PC World accept. Compulsory ID cards or a National Identity Register are not needed.

What, you don't have a driving license either?

Correct.

Well, I have a provisional from a few years ago, but I've never used it. Provisionals, funnily enough, aren't accepted in many places as ID, even though they contain exactly the same information as a full driving license.

How many people do throw the slips out before election day?
And there'd be a risk that the people staffing the polling station would get a bit suspicious when they saw you trying to collect voting forms more than once during a single election, so you'd effectively have to limit yourself to one vote per station for safety's sake...

You'd be surprised.
And all you'd really have to do is get a few people together, and pay them a little something to go voting for you.
One slip each.

Well, it corresponds to the records they have, then you get your ID.

Except it doesn't. Which is why you need to supply them with plenty of other information.

(Judging from what I've seen from the passport application form).

Has nobody ever had the idea of going around to people's houses and just going through their trash to find slips that have been thrown out? You could massively rip an election that way...
How many people do throw the slips out before election day?
There'd be a risk that the people staffing the polling station would get a bit suspicious when they saw you trying to collect voting forms more than once during a single election, so you'd effectively have to limit yourself to one vote per station for safety's sake...
And if you voted in somebody else's name, and that person then turned up to vote anyway and proved their identity, the vote that you'd cast could be identified (because there are serial numbers on the ballot papers and their counterfoils, the stations' staff make a note of which counterfoil belonged to which voter, and a judge can order the authorities to go through the ballot papers and match them up with their counterfoils again if that seems necessary) and discounted.

You'd be surprised.
And all you'd really have to do is get a few people together, and pay them a little something to go voting for you.
One slip each.

Oh, lordy.

If you have enough money to pay enough people a suitable bribe to do that for you, then you have enough money to pay a couple of hackers to bust open the voting machines we'll all inevitably be using at some point.

How do you think identity is ascertained in postal voting?

I know what birth certificates (shockingly easy to forge by the way, so if you were hoping to get a newfangled ID thingummy based on that, then you're off to a bad start already), bank cards, passports, military service documents, drivers licenses, utility bills, bank statements and various other forms of ID look like. In my job at PC World (www.pcworld.co.uk), one of my tasks would be to process finance arrangements with customers. Basically, arrange loans.

They needed two forms of identification, one of which had to have a photograph on it. I had no problem recognising any of the 10 or so types of ID that PC World accept. Compulsory ID cards or a National Identity Register are not needed.You don't live in the US. They have over 50 individual entities that give out unfixed numbers of different IDs, driver's licenses and non driver's license IDs just to name two. That's over 100 ID cards you'd have to memorize right there, not including older versions and whatnot.

You don't live in the US. They have over 50 individual entities that give out unfixed numbers of different IDs, driver's licenses and non driver's license IDs just to name two. That's over 100 ID cards you'd have to memorize right there, not including older versions and whatnot.

No, but he is not arguing in the case of the US.

Arguing that the US has over 100 different acceptable IDs isn't a convincing arguement for IDs in smaller countries like the UK.

You don't live in the US. They have over 50 individual entities that give out unfixed numbers of different IDs, driver's licenses and non driver's license IDs just to name two. That's over 100 ID cards you'd have to memorize right there, not including older versions and whatnot.

I'm sure there must be over 100 different forms of identifying document in the UK, if you were to run through all the different utility companies, rental companies, council departments and such and include them all as a different form of ID. This is where cross-referencing comes in. You tap all this stuff into the computer. The computer talks to the finance company. The finance company drags up credit records, postal records and various other records that they are allowed to look at, and comes back with a yes, no or "referred" answer. Takes a couple of minutes, is solid and reliable, and you don't need a compulsory ID card.

Saying one form of ID is 50 just because there are 50 states is just being silly. A drivers license is a drivers license, even if the numbers are different. Why should I accept a German national ID card, then, seeing as the numbers are different?

I'm sure there must be over 100 different forms of identifying document in the UK, if you were to run through all the different utility companies, rental companies, council departments and such and include them all as a different form of ID. This is where cross-referencing comes in. You tap all this stuff into the computer. The computer talks to the finance company. The finance company drags up credit records, postal records and various other records that they are allowed to look at, and comes back with a yes, no or "referred" answer. Takes a couple of minutes, is solid and reliable, and you don't need a compulsory ID card.Over 100 valid IDs, not something like a video rental card. An ID you're actually legally required to recognize.

Saying one form of ID is 50 just because there are 50 states is just being silly. It is, because you're forgetting Puerto Rico, Guam, and the other American holdings, which have their own official documents.
A drivers license is a drivers license, even if the numbers are different. Problem: How can you tell it's a real West Virginia drivers license if you've never seen one before?
Why should I accept a German national ID card, then, seeing as the numbers are different?German national ID gets accepted outside of Germany for non passporty purposes? :confused:

German national ID gets accepted outside of Germany for non passporty purposes? :confused:

I'm sure that's what the EU has in mind?

Thing is I'm not stupid, or at least only stupid enough to argue on a web forum. Certain transactions require that involved parties know who each other are. Certainly in the case of finance, the loan company is going to want to know where and from whom they are going to collect their money from each month. The council will want to know who to collect taxes and assorted rubbish from. Whatever passes as a government is going to want to know, presumably, that councils are doing their jobs, everything is in order and that taxes are rolling in as usual.

Except in the case of dangerous individuals (depending on how creatively that's determined), there isn't a reason for any personal information to be just available. I'm sure it would save a few minutes in the Finance Centre while you buy your next super multimedia PC, but how often is that going to happen? How often exactly do you register with a library? In this country you give your details in once, and you get a card that you can use as many times as you like. I'll say the same for dentists, local doctors, councils and any other number of organisations you may want to register your details with. All have their own method of keeping tabs on you, and all store whatever data is relevant to any transactions you might make with them. It doesn't need anyone to introduce a compulsory national system to do that.

I know we've mentioned Germany's identity system here already. I'm sure it works well and the vast majority of people in Germany are happy with it, or I'm sure it wouldn't still be there. However (and I'm sorry to invoke Godwin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law) here) it's not like it was introduced under the best of circumstances. I'm sure back then most people would have gone along with whatever the man with the big gun said. However this is a different time, with different enemies, and different, better ways of finding them. To introduce a compulsory identity card scheme when there is no real reason to do so is foolish government policy, even when viewed from a distance. When you're in the middle of it, it just means more inconvenience and cost, more government intrusion and more surveillance on every individual in the country and for what? Because Ali Baba might blow a gas station up? What's stopping them? Laminated plastic? And we find out that young Ali was an agent with no previous history of involvement with any known cells when? After he's blown everything sky high? What good is that?

It's just not necessary to introduce it. The billions spent on introducing such a system (and I'm guessing the Italian system didn't cost €5 to introduce) are far better off being ploughed elsewhere, if they are to be ploughed anywhere at all.

That's just a compulsory ID card system. To have every single individual's basic details then stuck on a master database, with a unique key that binds a whole crapload of other online databases together to create the mother of all databases with all information anywhere to whoever has the right access codes, is overkill of quite probably unachievable proportions. It's also what, as I recall, part of German law forbids for aforementioned reasons. I sometimes think that someone overdosed on a mixture of Lord Of The Rings and Shadowrun when dreaming this one up. One database to rule them all?

No. Sorry. Never.