NationStates Jolt Archive

Nobody liked the Jews until WW2. After they got slaughtered people decided to like them. It's the same thing with black people, they had to get beaten up on television in the 60's before they where allowed to sit in the good part of the bus. See, television is good after all.

Point of Diversion: But what if after world war one, with the germans defeated and the french eager to punish them as much as possible, did this: they supported a jewish nation in the province of bavaria and with the massive porgroms done in a collapsed russia against them, and the orthodox sect overruled, they supported moving the the bountiful land of Bavaria. with the British public in favor of punishing the germans and making them suffer as much as possible, the brits are forced to announce the jewish nation of bavaria. with massive influxes of jews from all over europe the new nation of bavaria quickly becomes a bustling utopia, having formed trade alliances with the swiss, british and the french, what would the history afterwards be like, up to WW2?

Nobody liked the Jews until WW2.

ACtually that is not 100% accurate.

Really? I watched some American propaganda from WW2, and none of it ever mentioned any Jews, gypsies, or anything. They just talked about how Germany was going to take over America, and about how the poor blond German children where being brainwashed.

Really? I watched some American propaganda from WW2, and none of it ever mentioned any Jews, gypsies, or anything. They just talked about how Germany was going to take over America, and about how the poor blond German children where being brainwashed.

That's the problem with propaganda. You always here the worse of your ENEMIES!!!!

Point of Diversion: But what if after world war one, with the germans defeated and the french eager to punish them as much as possible, did this: they supported a jewish nation in the province of bavaria and with the massive porgroms done in a collapsed russia against them, and the orthodox sect overruled, they supported moving the the bountiful land of Bavaria. with the British public in favor of punishing the germans and making them suffer as much as possible, the brits are forced to announce the jewish nation of bavaria. with massive influxes of jews from all over europe the new nation of bavaria quickly becomes a bustling utopia, having formed trade alliances with the swiss, british and the french, what would the history afterwards be like, up to WW2?

I don't see any reason why anyone would have gone for that, they did have their own country (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Mandate_of_Palestine), of sorts anyways, previous to the end of WW2

That's the problem with propaganda. You always here the worse of your ENEMIES!!!!So, you don't think killing millions of Jews is the worst thing the nazis did? Interesting.

So, you don't think killing millions of Jews is the worst thing the nazis did? Interesting.

Oh they have done many things worse but ya know what? The Japanese did much much worse than the Nazis. But you did not mention the holocaust at all you stated and I quote:

Really? I watched some American propaganda from WW2, and none of it ever mentioned any Jews, gypsies, or anything. They just talked about how Germany was going to take over America, and about how the poor blond German children where being brainwashed.

Nowhere in that quote was the holocaust mentioned which precipitated me to state what I did state.

I don't see any reason why anyone would have gone for that, they did have their own country (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Mandate_of_Palestine), of sorts anyways, previous to the end of WW2

You know a large part of current problems is the Brit habit of just randomly drawing lines on maps and declaring them nations.

So, you don't think killing millions of Jews is the worst thing the nazis did? Interesting.

No actually it wasn't. Killing 6 million Poles, Gypsies, Trade-unionists, communists, homosexuals and disabled individuals ranks right up there, along with the deaths of almost twenty million Russian and Ukrainian civilians on the Eastern Front.

The Jews were not the only people to suffer under the Nazis.

Oh they have done many things worse but ya know what? The Japanese did much much worse than the Nazis. But you did not mention the holocaust at all you stated and I quote:



Nowhere in that quote was the holocaust mentioned which precipitated me to state what I did state.Hey look, when I bring up Jews in the context of a post about WW2 propaganda videos, I think it's safe for you to assume I'm talking about the holocaust!

The propaganda against the Japanese is even worse than the propaganda against Germans. All of the Japanese propaganda was just racist depictions of weird looking Asians doing Asian stuff.

No actually it wasn't. Killing 6 million Poles, Gypsies, Trade-unionists, communists, homosexuals and disabled individuals ranks right up there, along with the deaths of almost twenty million Russian and Ukrainian civilians on the Eastern Front.

The Jews were not the only people to suffer under the Nazis.The point is, I was replying to somebody who was telling me propaganda is only supposed to mention the worst things about your enemies. The fact that Germany was attacking America was not the worst thing.

You know a large part of current problems is the European/western habit of just randomly drawing lines on maps and declaring them nations.

fixed

The point is, I was replying to somebody who was telling me propaganda is only supposed to mention the worst things about your enemies. The fact that Germany was attacking America was not the worst thing.

The problem is though that Germany was not even attacking America until December 1941 when Germany declared war on us followed by the Italians. That was Hitler's second biggest mistake of the war.

I think what Corny is trying to say in his amusingly bumbling way is that the Allies were unaware of the Nazi's concentration camps until after one was discovered in 1944 or so. At least that's what I was taught in school and I haven't really seen anything since to suggest otherwise.

So, Allied propaganda would not have been able to include stuff about the Jews if they had no idea the Jews were being slaughtered.

I think what Corny is trying to say in his amusingly bumbling way is that the Allies were unaware of the Nazi's concentration camps until after one was discovered in 1944 or so. At least that's what I was taught in school and I haven't really seen anything since to suggest otherwise.

So, Allied propaganda would not have been able to include stuff about the Jews if they had no idea the Jews were being slaughtered.

Indeed. So I have to ask VietnamSound, what year were these propaganda films done in?

Hilter talked about killing Jews all the time, even before the war, so it's hard for me to believe that no one suspected that's what was happening to all the Jews who mysteriously vanished in Germany.

I don't remember the exact year.

Hilter talked about killing Jews all the time, even before the war, so it's hard for me to believe that no one suspected that's what was happening to all the Jews who mysteriously vanished in Germany.

I don't remember the exact year.

None of the US propaganda during the War had anything to do with Germany's treatment of Jews though. As a matter of fact, the holocaust didn't become general knowledge until the soldiers who liberated the death camps started coming home after the war. Even then it still took a long time to get where we are today.

Hilter talked about killing Jews all the time, even before the war, so it's hard for me to believe that no one suspected that's what was happening to all the Jews who mysteriously vanished in Germany.

I don't remember the exact year.

Suspicion is not the same as confirmed fact. Furthermore, you have to take into account that before the Nazis, such concentration camps had never really existed. Yes, pograms had existed and genocide had been performed before, but never on the industrial factory scale of the Nazi concentration camps. Like nuclear weapons, it was something you cannot understand and therefore will refuse to believe until you see it happening.

Of course there's also the fact that information was not anywhere near as easily transmitted back then as it is today(something I'm finding more and more that people are not realizing, which is both amusing and appalling). Also, the Jews weren't of much consequence to most people at that time. People were far more racist and bigoted than they are today, and as such they probably figured that the Germans would, at most, go for pograms like the Russians did. Sad, but they'd take the attitude "What can you do?" and not give it another moment's thought.

Finally, I'm reasonably certain that Joseph Goebbels would have manipulated any propaganda regarding the Jews against the Allies to further feed the German cause, which most definitely would have been a consideration to keep in mind.

FDR knew about Auschwitz yet he refused to send bombers to blow up the crematoriums and gas chambers.

Um strategic bombing was nearly impossible back then and do you really want to risk the fact that if British and American bombers did bomb those sites that Hitler and Joseph Goebbels would have used such an attack to show that we do not care at all for Jews either?

None of the US propaganda during the War had anything to do with Germany's treatment of Jews though. As a matter of fact, the holocaust didn't become general knowledge until the soldiers who liberated the death camps started coming home after the war. Even then it still took a long time to get where we are today.

It wasn't general knowledge, but FDR and the American government certainly knew about it. Jan Karski told FDR about the camps and extermination of the Jews in 1942 (and again in 1943). FDR knew about Auschwitz yet he refused to send bombers to blow up the crematoriums and gas chambers. It baffles me how American Jews of my grandmother's generation can admire the man so much.

It wasn't general knowledge, but FDR and the American government certainly knew about it. Jan Karski told FDR about the camps and extermination of the Jews in 1942 (and again in 1943). FDR knew about Auschwitz yet he refused to send bombers to blow up the crematoriums and gas chambers. It baffles me how American Jews of my grandmother's generation can admire the man so much.

That might've been more due to military considerations than you realize. The Nazi concentration camps were deep in Nazi controlled airspace, since they were mostly in Poland and eastern Germany. As such, the Luftwaffe had far too much control over the skies to make it worthwhile, since the Allies would have lost quite a number of bombers, and for what? Targeting the concentration camps themselves would have only killed the Jews and others already present, and the simple fact is that there were far better ways to stop those camps as well as hamper the German war effort, such as bombing the railways and factories that produced the resources necessary to keep the camps running.

It wasn't general knowledge, but FDR and the American government certainly knew about it. Jan Karski told FDR about the camps and extermination of the Jews in 1942 (and again in 1943). FDR knew about Auschwitz yet he refused to send bombers to blow up the crematoriums and gas chambers. It baffles me how American Jews of my grandmother's generation can admire the man so much.

Like Corneliu said, easier said then done. Any attempt would have just as likely hit the camp barracks where the Jews were held. But yes, the US government, as well as every other government, was delinquent in their treatment of the knowledge of the German "Final Solution"

Hitler and Goebbels would never say such a thing as they wanted to keep those sites secret from the German population. That is why the extermination camps were placed in Poland rather than Germany. I would expect someone who studied history to know at least that much.

Ah but you underestimate Goebbels and his propaganda machine. You do not think that he would have spun things so well that he would be unable to spin this? Jesus you really should study more history.

Hitler and Goebbels would never say such a thing as they wanted to keep those sites secret from the German population. That is why the extermination camps were placed in Poland rather than Germany. I would expect someone who studied history to know at least that much.

Oh please, spare me the innocent German population line. You cannot hide a campaign of that magnitude. The camps were placed in Poland because Poles, Gypsies and Slavs were to be targeted as well as the large Jewish population of Eastern Europe. It was a matter of strategic convenience.

Targeting the concentration camps themselves would have only killed the Jews and others already present, and the simple fact is that there were far better ways to stop those camps as well as hamper the German war effort, such as bombing the railways and factories that produced the resources necessary to keep the camps running.

The bolded part is precisely what the RAF and the USAAC did do.

Um strategic bombing was nearly impossible back then and do you really want to risk the fact that if British and American bombers did bomb those sites that Hitler and Joseph Goebbels would have used such an attack to show that we do not care at all for Jews either?
Hitler and Goebbels would never say such a thing as they wanted to keep those sites secret from the German population. That is why the extermination camps were placed in Poland rather than Germany. I would expect someone who studied history to know at least that much.

There's also the fact to consider that bombing was simply not that accurate, not for the type of bombing they'd need to do to have any real effect on the camps. Unlike today, they did not have laser guided munitions, onboard computers, and all that fancy stuff that we use for pinpoint bombing. (And even we're not that pinpoint. That's why the term collateral damage still exists.)

There's also the fact to consider that bombing was simply not that accurate, not for the type of bombing they'd need to do to have any real effect on the camps. Unlike today, they did not have laser guided munitions, onboard computers, and all that fancy stuff that we use for pinpoint bombing. (And even we're not that pinpoint. That's why the term collateral damage still exists.)

Pretty much already been stated :D

Exactly, 'accurate bombing' in WW2 was if you got your bombs within 5 miles of the intended target.

The pilots of the Enola Gay were elated when they found out that they missed their target by only eight hundred meters. Of course, 10 kiloton bombs mean you can throw accuracy out the window.

There's also the fact to consider that bombing was simply not that accurate, not for the type of bombing they'd need to do to have any real effect on the camps. Unlike today, they did not have laser guided munitions, onboard computers, and all that fancy stuff that we use for pinpoint bombing. (And even we're not that pinpoint. That's why the term collateral damage still exists.)

Exactly, 'accurate bombing' in WW2 was if you got your bombs within 5 miles of the intended target.