NationStates Jolt Archive

Source (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7223568.stm)



Poland and the US have reached an agreement in principle to install a controversial American missile defence system on Polish soil.
In return for hosting part of the shield, the US has said it will help bolster Poland's air defences.

The US wants to install interceptor missiles in Poland and a radar base in the Czech Republic.

Russia opposes the project, saying it would destabilise global security and undermine its own nuclear deterrent.

In October, Russian President Vladimir Putin compared the plans to the Cuban missile crisis of the 1960s, which saw the US and Soviet Union go to the brink of nuclear war.

Russia has threatened to point missiles at Europe if the US positions elements of the new missile shield near its borders.

'Middle of the road'

In response to this threat, Poland says it wants help to upgrade its air defences.

Speaking in Washington, Polish foreign minister Radek Sikorsky said he was satisfied that the security concerns Poland had raised would be dealt with.

"There is still a great deal of work for our experts... But yes, I am satisfied that the principles that we have argued for have been accepted," he said.

US Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice said: "We understand that there is a desire for defence modernisation in Poland and particularly for air defence modernisation in Poland. This is something that we support because it will make our ally, Poland, more capable."

America wants to install 10 interceptor missiles to protect against possible attack by what it calls rogue states, such as Iran and North Korea.

But Mr Sikorsky said there was still a long way to go.

"We are not at the end of the road as regards negotiations. We are in the middle of the road," he said.

"We have an agreement in principle."

Any final agreement will have to be ratified by the Polish parliament.

The Czech government aims to submit a draft accord on the radar base to parliament in April.



So what does this mean for the world? Could these events lead to a new Cold War? Will the Russians really place missiles pointing towards Europe? Is there a big enough threat deserving of a missile shield at all?

Poland is an odd place to put interceptor missiles deterring Iran and N. Korea, don't you think?

Indeed it is. More logical places would be Saudi Arabia or even Iraq once(if ever) it stabilizes or even Pakistan. It seems the US is playing a dangerous game with Russia and Poland will become the casualty.

I can think of better places to put interceptor missiles to deter Iran and North Korea.

Could these events lead to a new Cold War? Is there a big enough threat deserving of a missile shield at all?
This makes me somewhat angry. I have had to trim a rather ineloquent rant for the sake of self control.

In any case, I have decided that the only rational response to this is a policy of universal offense. America, Russia, Europe, you're all fucking morons.

Nuke the wales!!!

Nuke the wales!!!

Um, not sure I like that. Do you mean nuke Wales or nuke the whales?

We're bound for cold war. If Russia continues to re-arm and grandstand as it has (need I remind you of when 2 Blackjacks entered NATO airspace near Finland and GB (http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2007-09-14-nato-russia_N.htm)? With Putin's continual return to power, hes effectively put himself in power for life. Now Russia is slowly rebuilding their pre-soviet union dissolving armed forces. I can't say I'm surprised that tensions are high.

We're bound for cold war. If Russia continues to re-arm and grandstand as it has (need I remind you of when 2 Blackjacks entered NATO airspace near Finland and GB (http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2007-09-14-nato-russia_N.htm)? With Putin's continual return to power, hes effectively put himself in power for life. Now Russia is slowly rebuilding their pre-soviet union dissolving armed forces. I can't say I'm surprised that tensions are high.

yes you could, but then you would be lying :p

Indeed it is. More logical places would be Saudi Arabia or even Iraq once(if ever) it stabilizes or even Pakistan. It seems the US is playing a dangerous game with Russia and Poland will become the casualty.

Ideally advanced missile technology should be kept as far away from the Middle East as possible, but maybe that's just me.

And poor Poland. Poor, poor Poland.

Ideally advanced missile technology should be kept as far away from the Middle East as possible, but maybe that's just me.

And poor Poland. Poor, poor Poland.

Ideally maybe but in practicallity it could act as a better deterrent than the missiles being in Poland. the placement really depends on who the US feels is a bigger threat. In my opinion Iran is not a major threat (at least not yet) but Russia is. Also if North Korea were to attack, I doubt they would fire their missiles across the Middle East and Europe when it'd be easier to fire across the Pacific. In this case Japan or South Korea would be better places to have a missile defence. I honestly feel the US Gov. is more worried about Russia. The question is why?

And poor Poland. Poor, poor Poland.
At least they weren't forgotten about this time.

Poland is an odd place to put interceptor missiles deterring Iran and N. Korea, don't you think?

These missiles are designed for mid-course interception (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Missile_Defense), not shortly after launch. That is the role of boost-phase interceptor's like the Boeing YAL-1 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airborne_laser) and the Navy's Standard Missile 4.

In the case of the Ground Based Midcourse Defense (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ground-Based_Midcourse_Defense) missiles, you put them closer towards what the enemy's trying to shoot at, not closer to the enemy themselves. That's why the one's to protect the US homeland from North Korea and China are not in Japan, but California and Alaska, thousands of miles away from North Korea and China.

Furthermore, there's absolutely no way that the US could deploy a sufficient quantity of interceptors to challenge the Russian strategic and tactical nuclear missile forces. We would need to be fielding thousands of GBI-EVK's to even make a dent in their ridiculously massive rocket force. I mean, after all, the Russians have over fifteen thousand readily deployed nuclear warheads. What's a dozen interceptor's in Poland going to mean for their strategic defense?

This complaining is just Russia trying to exert its authority in the region, and fantasizing about the "good ol' days" when they had absolute and total control over every single action the Polish and Czech government's took. If anything, Putin views Poland as part of the justly determined Russian Empire, and believes that we are encroaching on Russian land.

Do you mean nuke Wales or nuke the whales?

Whales, sorry: those big things that swim in the sea and get eaten by Japanese...
U can nuke the Welsh too if u want...

I just like to nuke whales. They are nice creatures, but not nice enough to not be nuked.

the case of the Ground Based Midcourse Defense (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ground-Based_Midcourse_Defense) missiles, you put them closer towards what the enemy's trying to shoot at, not closer to the enemy themselves. That's why the one's to protect the US homeland from North Korea and China are not in Japan, but California and Alaska, thousands of miles away from North Korea and China.

So when did Poland move to New Jersey? :p

Well maybe after this Poland won't be bullied around by anyone but the U.S. That or Russia will invade and for old times sake Germany will too.

So when did Poland move to New Jersey? :p

It's actually been moved to Chicago, but, whatever.

There is this nice little deli in Garfield called Piast, though...

I think it's on River Street.

So when did Poland move to New Jersey? :pNew Jersey? No. Half of Poland moved to Germany :rolleyes:

New Jersey? No. Half of Poland moved to Germany :rolleyes:

And what previously once was part of Poland has now been permanently claimed by Russia...talk about imperialism.

hmmmm. Interceptor missles in Poland and Czechoslovakia.
Perhaps a deal was done between US and Poland/Czechoslovakia, in return for missle defence they will support US political actions, it seems.
(as an aside i wonder what the main similarities between the US and Poland/Czechoslovakia?)
I doubt Russia will like that, of course Russia could respond by adding arms deals with South America, Mexico and Cuba.
Is this the start of the Mild War?:confused:

Fuck Russia :upyours:

Fuck Russia :upyours:

I thought President Nixon was dead?

Fuck Russia :upyours:

In Soviet Russia, Russia fucks YOU!

Sorry, I had to.

hmmmm. Interceptor missles in Poland and Czechoslovakia.
Perhaps a deal was done between US and Poland/Czechoslovakia, in return for missle defence they will support US political actions, it seems.
(as an aside i wonder what the main similarities between the US and Poland/Czechoslovakia?)
I doubt Russia will like that, of course Russia could respond by adding arms deals with South America, Mexico and Cuba.
Is this the start of the Mild War?:confused:

Eh, Russia's been doing massive arms deals with Venezuela since early in the Chavez presidency, and as far as Poland and Czechs go, they hate the Russians, and so do the Americans, thus, Americans=good in the minds of Poles and Czechs.

Also:

Czechoslovakia doesn't exist anymore, it's the Czech Republic and Slovakia.

Well, it IS a rather similar situation to the Missile Crisis, isnt it?
A former colonial possession, now closer to the former colonizers enemy, is buddying up and letting the former enemy put what could be thought of as offensive weapons rather close to a nation.
I mean, its like the Russians installing nukes in Mexico.
*Shrug*
The Ruskies also want their empire back. Nobody ever pays attention when I do the explanation, so I'll leave it at that.

Well, it IS a rather similar situation to the Missile Crisis, isnt it?
A former colonial possession, now closer to the former colonizers enemy, is buddying up and letting the former enemy put what could be thought of as offensive weapons rather close to a nation.
I mean, its like the Russians installing nukes in Mexico.
*Shrug*
The Ruskies also want their empire back. Nobody ever pays attention when I do the explanation, so I'll leave it at that.

Mid Course Interceptor's are not an offensive weapon, nor are they a strategic and existential threat to Russia. They cannot be used to strike against Russia or Russian interests, and they do not challenge threaten to be able to negate even the tiniest portion of the Russian deterrent force.

More so, the Cuban Missiles were deployed under a cloud of utmost secrecy, this is being done fully in the open.

It is not like Russia installing Nukes in Mexico or Cuba, and no amount of sniveling equivocating could make it so.

Mid Course Interceptor's are not an offensive weapon, nor are they a strategic and existential threat to Russia.

It is not like Russia installing Nukes in Mexico, and no amount of sniveling equivocating could make it so.

Its principal.
OK, maybe nukes in Mexico were a bit much.
How 'bout Russia putting nuclear interceptors of their own in Mexico?
Yeah, they wont stop much, but its going to piss off the US gov/armed forces.
Basically the equivalent of poking somebody with a stick.

Its principal.
OK, maybe nukes in Mexico were a bit much.
How 'bout Russia putting nuclear interceptors of their own in Mexico?
Yeah, they wont stop much, but its going to piss off the US gov/armed forces.
Basically the equivalent of poking somebody with a stick.

No, no it isn't. These interceptors are not aimed at Russia, and Russia knows that, which is why their military has put forth so many ridiculous theories as to why we are basing missiles in Poland. To shoot down their rockets so they can't go to the moon? Preposterous! Because of the technical specifications of the MCD Missiles, there is absolutely no reason to base them in Poland, if we wanted to threaten Russia, but they are perfectly based to knock down missiles coming from the Middle East.

To intercept Russian missiles, you'd base the MCD Missiles in Iberia, and turn the entire country of Spain into a massive launch pad. Not this puny little presence in Poland.

Further, Poland and the Czech Republic are American allies of the long term, they are members of NATO and the European Union. It is our responsibility to protect and defend them, and to come to their (and the rest of NATO's) aid as rapidly as possible. In the event of a missile strike from the Middle East, this is the best way to help defend our allies.

It's not principal. It's Russia, and mostly Putin and the military, playing nationalist politics with this one. Whipping up his people and all of that. Trying to poke the United States and its allies with a stick.

No, no it isn't. These interceptors are not aimed at Russia, and Russia knows that, which is why their military has put forth so many ridiculous theories as to why we are basing missiles in Poland. To shoot down their rockets so they can't go to the moon? Preposterous! Because of the technical specifications of the MCD Missiles, there is absolutely no reason to base them in Poland, if we wanted to threaten Russia, but they are perfectly based to knock down missiles coming from the Middle East.

To intercept Russian missiles, you'd base the MCD Missiles in Iberia, and turn the entire country of Spain into a massive launch pad. Not this puny little presence in Poland.

Further, Poland and the Czech Republic are American allies of the long term, they are members of NATO and the European Union. It is our responsibility to protect and defend them, and to come to their (and the rest of NATO's) aid as rapidly as possible. In the event of a missile strike from the Middle East, this is the best way to help defend our allies.

It's not principal. It's Russia, and mostly Putin and the military, playing nationalist politics with this one. Whipping up his people and all of that. Trying to poke the United States and its allies with a stick.

So...your arguement and your conclusion are...exactly what I said. US pokes Russia with a stick by putting missiles in former colonies, Russia pokes back with 'OH NOES U DUNT IDIORT'.
lulz all around.

So...your arguement and your conclusion are...exactly what I said. US pokes Russia with a stick by putting missiles in former colonies, Russia pokes back with 'OH NOES U DUNT IDIORT'.
lulz all around.

Except the US didn't poke Russia.

Russia is just poking unprovoked, and that mainly because their President is a hyper-nationalist who bears a permanent grudge against the US, because they cost him his first job in the Torture and Terror Department of the Soviet Government.

This is just like the case with my sister's former best friend. They had some sort of squabble, and the one girl started to assume everything my sister did was done in regards to insulting her. This has nothing to do with Russia.

Except the US didn't poke Russia.

Russia is just poking unprovoked, and that mainly because their President is a hyper-nationalist who bears a permanent grudge against the US, because they cost him his first job in the Torture and Terror Department of the Soviet Government.

We put missiles in what the Russian government views as its own back yard. It doesnt matter if the missiles are for use against Russian missiles or not.
Poland is a 'rouge' colony to be brought back under the control of the New Russian Empire, and Tsar Putin probably figures the more the US gets friendly with Poland the harder 'tis going to be to reclaim the borderlands.
The US government probably sees that Putin plans on rebuilding Russia as well, and while theyre not going to be direct about it, throwing some hardware into Eastern Europe is a nice detterent to Russian invasions.
Nothing wrong with killing two birds with one multi-million dollar stone.

Except the US didn't poke Russia.
A careless poke, whether intentional or not, is still a poke when your finger jabs into another's upper arm. That is exactly what can be said of this missile base. Whether or not they are actually trying to sleight Russia, the fact remains that they've just installed an anti-missile defense mechanism right on their doorstep, and given the previous history of aggression between the two nations, it should be no surprise that Russia would take it as a warning sign.

Doesn't Putin relize Russia is part of Europe and he would therefore have to nuke himself?

But seriously this came out months ago and I haven't heard about since then(except here). I'm sure it'll boil over, with some lame comprimise. Or one side giving up.

Poland is an odd place to put interceptor missiles deterring Iran and N. Korea, don't you think?

No, actually, it's not. A direct line (use Google Earth) from Iran over to the Northeast US passes over the Black Sea, Eastern Europe, across the UK, down and southwest to the eastern seaboard. It doesn't make sense at first glance, but figure in the curvature of the earth.

It passes over - (gasp!) - Poland.

In Soviet Russia, Russia fucks YOU!

Sorry, I had to.


Nice one :p

I thought President Nixon was dead?


If it helps, fuck America too :upyours:

For the non-believers:

http://img223.imageshack.us/img223/9656/irannukesxb1.jpg

Me thinks Poland is getting a little too independent minded, time for another purge.

Russia's just pissed because noone outside of eastern europe gives a fuck about what they think anymore.

Until they turn off the gas that is.

Russia's just pissed because noone outside of eastern europe gives a fuck about what they think anymore.

Russia's just pissed because noone outside of eastern europe gives a fuck about what they think anymore.

Remind me...who supplies Europe with natural gas? Who has the largest reserves of natural resources in the world? Who has more tanks and nukes than anybody else?
Oh. Right. Those guys nobody cares about.
And here I was thinking Europe was freaking out when Russia and Ukraine were about to go at it over a natural gas line.

And poor Poland. Poor, poor Poland.

Someday, I'm going to build a time machine, go back to 1939, and arm Poland with the latest weapons.

Germans: Panzers, attack! Fur der Vaterland!
Poland: Fire lasers!
Polish Lasers: Pew pew!
German panzers: *melt*

Remind me...who supplies Europe with natural gas? Who has the largest reserves of natural resources in the world? Who has more tanks and nukes than anybody else?
Oh. Right. Those guys nobody cares about.
And here I was thinking Europe was freaking out when Russia and Ukraine were about to go at it over a natural gas line.
Yep. Ukraine, Georgia and all the rest talk tough to Russia until they turn off the gas, then they calm down really quickly.

Someday, I'm going to build a time machine, go back to 1939, and arm Poland with the latest weapons.

Germans: Panzers, attack! Fur der Vaterland!
Poland: Fire lasers!
Polish Lasers: Pew pew!
German panzers: *melt*

Don't forget to arm them with space dreadnought bombardment technology.

Yep. Ukraine, Georgia and all the rest talk tough to Russia until they turn off the gas, then they calm down really quickly.

Quite. Its sort of like how the US is tough on people who harbor terrorists everywhere EXCEPT Saudi Arabia.

Poland stopped being communist a good while ago. ;)

Yes? And that stops the Russians from thinking of Poland as a province in rebellion...how?

Poland is a 'rouge' colony to be brought back under the control of the New Russian Empire, and Tsar Putin probably figures the more the US gets friendly with Poland the harder 'tis going to be to reclaim the borderlands.

Poland stopped being communist a good while ago. ;)

Someday, I'm going to build a time machine, go back to 1939, and arm Poland with the latest weapons.

Germans: Panzers, attack! Fur der Vaterland!
Poland: Fire lasers!
Polish Lasers: Pew pew!
German panzers: *melt*

I appreciate giving the Poles a break, but can we really [INSERT POLISH JOKE HERE]

I still don't get why they need antimissile bases in Poland.

It's not in the path from Iran or North Korea.
Neither Iran or North Korea is capable of firing on the US let alone Europe.
Neither Iran nor North Korea would even try to do that.
Europe is not under threat.

It's all meant to be a bunch of :upyours: at Russia.

I still don't get why they need antimissile bases in Poland.

It's not in the path from Iran or North Korea.

http://img223.imageshack.us/img223/9656/irannukesxb1.jpg

Dude, try again.

Between this and global warming, some cheap arctic real-estate is looking pretty good about now.

Yes? And that stops the Russians from thinking of Poland as a province in rebellion...how?

Hamilay was making a joke about the other poster typing rouge(or red) instead of rogue.

Actually, I would say the Antartic, cause', you know, there is actually LAND down there(while the Artic is just ice on water).

Actually, I would say the Antartic, cause', you know, there is actually LAND down there(while the Artic is just ice on water).

Silence. None shall stop me and my hollowed-out iceberg.

Quite. Its sort of like how the US is tough on people who harbor terrorists everywhere EXCEPT Saudi Arabia.

It's not about being 'tough' so much as projecting power, and it lets the small countries know how irrelevant they are.
I mean if Russia can turn off the gas and make Georgia go into economic freefall, mass population exodus etc, it shows that they aren't much of a country.

Actually, I would say the Antartic, cause', you know, there is actually LAND down there(while the Artic is just ice on water).

That'd suck to wake up to.

-wake up- "Hmm, I feel wet... WHY IS MY TENT FLOATING IN THE MIDDLE OF THE OCEAN!"

Quite. Its sort of like how the US is tough on people who harbor terrorists everywhere EXCEPT Saudi Arabia.



Yes? And that stops the Russians from thinking of Poland as a province in rebellion...how?

see bold

...

Well, you cant argue with having a hallowed out Iceberg as a base of operations.

Although when the Iceberg reaches the equator/temperatures get too high and you drown I will be sitting in the new lands of Antartica, wearing a T-Shirt* and sipping on some iced tea**.

But the Artic is a bad place to be in the event of a US/Russia nuclear exchange anyways.***

*More like a parka, since even with global warming the place will be FUCKING FREEZING!

**And when I say Iced Tea I mean hot cocoa.

***Because rocket boosters would be falling everywhere.

I wonder...how long WOULD it take for a typical sized iceburg to melt if suddenly transported to tropical waters?

It's not about being 'tough' so much as projecting power, and it lets the small countries know how irrelevant they are.
I mean if Russia can turn off the gas and make Georgia go into economic freefall, mass population exodus etc, it shows that they aren't much of a country.

And Saudi Arabia could trigger massive economic crises in the US just by SAYING theyre going to raise gas prices :P

see bold

You misunderstand. I was speaking from the 'Russian' point of view.
Russia thought of Poland as part of Russia before Communism even existed.

And Saudi Arabia could trigger massive economic crises in the US just by SAYING theyre going to raise gas prices :P

Which is why funnily enough the US probably won't try anything with Iran, if the Saudis would do an embargo over the US supplying Israel during the war then I'd say they would over a war with Iran.

...

Well, you cant argue with having a hallowed out Iceberg as a base of operations.

Although when the Iceberg reaches the equator/temperatures get too high and you drown I will be sitting in the new lands of Antartica, wearing a T-Shirt* and sipping on some iced tea**.

But the Artic is a bad place to be in the event of a US/Russia nuclear exchange anyways.***

*More like a parka, since even with global warming the place will be FUCKING FREEZING!

**And when I say Iced Tea I mean hot cocoa.

***Because rocket boosters would be falling everywhere.

Ah yes.. Mild warmth. My eternal nemesis.