NationStates Jolt Archive

The occupation of Afghanistan is never going to end, is it?

EDIT: My thread now!

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y223/GermanNightmare/Germans_to_the_front.jpg

Report: Gates letter urges Germany to increase troops to Afghanistan
The Associated Press
Published: January 31, 2008
http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2008/01/31/europe/EU-GEN-Germany-US-Afghanistan.php

BERLIN: U.S. Secretary of Defense Robert Gates has written to his German counterpart urging Berlin to send an additional 3,200 troops to Afghanistan, warning that the NATO-led force there could lose credibility without reinforcement, a Defense Ministry spokesman confirmed Thursday.

According to the German Sueddeutsche Zeitung daily, the one-and-a-half-page-long, undated letter to Defense Minister Franz Josef Jung arrived last week. In it, Gates specifically asks Germany to drop caveats limiting its troops to the north of Afghanistan and to send helicopter units, infantry and paratroopers that could join the fight against Taliban militants in the south, the paper reported without citing the letter.

Thomas Raabe, a spokesman for Jung, said the minister had received such a letter, adding that similar correspondence was sent to the other NATO partners ahead of an informal meeting of Alliance defense ministers in Vilnius, Lithuania, next month, where the force in Afghanistan is to be discussed.

Gates has been trying recently to persuade NATO allies to contribute more troops and equipment to the International Security Assistance Force in Afghanistan, without much success.

Yet such a direct request from Washington is sure to spark fierce debate in Germany, which already has some 3,000 troops serving in the relatively peaceful north, amid growing public skepticism about the mission.

In October, German lawmakers voted overwhelmingly to continue the country's involvement in the NATO-led International Security Assistance Force in Afghanistan, but only after intense debate led by pacifist contingents in several opposition parties that insist Germany should instead concentrate its efforts on humanitarian and reconstruction efforts in the central Asian nation.

Earlier this week, Jung made an unannounced visit to Afghanistan, where he held talks with top officials. That visit coincided with a request from NATO for Germany to send a so-called quick reaction force to Afghanistan.

While all 26 NATO allies have units in Afghanistan, France, Turkey and Italy, as well as Germany, refuse to send significant numbers to the southern combat zone.

-
Here's a couple of thoughts I have on that.

Why exactly should the Germans send additional troops to another region other their own? Afghanistan is divided into different zones, and each zone has its own keepers.

I don't see why Germany should send troops to Afghanistan to replace U.S. troops in the South who wouldn't have to deal with so much trouble in the first place had their government not opted for the Iraqi adventure and instead kept its focus in Afghanistan.

Those so-called "caveats" (like limiting the troops to 3,500 and to the North) are the basis for the mandate given by the Bundestag on which the Bundeswehr is acting in Afghanistan in the first place.

Change that and there is no mission. The U.S. knew this from the beginning.

Besides, the German forces are only allowed to use deadly force when being shot at or being in immediate danger. They wouldn't be allowed to engage the enemy the way the U.S. wanted them to, going after the baddies and taking them out.

The mission in Afghanistan is growing less and less popular among and is less and less supported by the German public. A request from Gates, worded the way it is, will not help his cause. I myself am inclined to cheney him and tell him to go fuck himself.

And while I understand the the mission in Afghanistan not only consists of rebuilding the country - I have the feeling that this goal of the mission has come out of sight due to all the shooting done in order to smoke people out.

Germany will already be replacing a Norwegian force in the North this summer and thus prepare to take care of its responsibilities.

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y223/GermanNightmare/Afghanistan.jpg
spiegel.de

The NATO force could lose credibility? Holy shit, let's break out the tactical nukes.
Yeah, exactly. OMGOMGOMG what CAN WE DO?!?

Oh, I know! We let the Germans take over some more and when they lose, it's all their fault, too! :rolleyes:

The NATO force could lose credibility? Holy shit, let's break out the tactical nukes.

EDIT: My thread now!
Blasted terrorist!
The occupation of Afghanistan is never going to end, is it?
Not until the GWoT is won...

look

we made some mistakes


just bail us out okay?

Blasted terrorist!

Not until the GWoT is won...

Using time travel, I have routed you're NATO force before it ever was reinforced! BWAHHAHAHAHAHA!

look

we made some mistakes


just bail us out okay?
Bail you out with what?

We don't have the proper troops in numbers that would do you any good because of the mission restrictions (the basis on which Germany agreed to participate in the first place), we don't have proper helicopters (let alone attack helicopters), no tanks, no ranged weapons there, our Luftwaffe has sent like 10 airplanes so 6 would make it to their final destination, our Marine is busy ramming themselves off the coast of Lebanon or putting their ships on rocks in Norway or damaging their newest corvette in a channel.

Though one has to admit it's a little bit unfair for the Canadians, British and Dutch to do all the dying. I don't think we can go on imagining that fighting the Taliban and rebuilding the country are somehow two different issues.

So maybe a rotational system that makes countries switch zones every two or so years? Or just multinational forces in each zone. Might even improve performance, because to be honest, it's not like the Bundeswehr really did such a great job on things like training police anyways.

Quite frankly, I think he's right. Germany is a full member of NATO, and should shoulder equal responsibilities. The Canadians are doing far more then their fair share of the fighting because Germany (and others) refuse to commit their troops to areas where violence is common.

Honestly, thank god for the Canadians. Without their massive contributions, Afghanistan would have already been lost.

is it just me or is the UK operation zone frigging huge?

why don't we just drag Russia into it and see if the old Soviet pride makes them keep hold of the bomb :p

Honestly, thank god for the Canadians. Without their massive contributions, Afghanistan would have already been lost.
Yeah, well, something had better be done, because I don't think Canada is going to be staying there very long unless something happens. The Harper government has decided to follow the Manley report's suggestions, and that means that before we confirm that our troops are going to stay in Afghanistan past 2009, we want to hear about reinforcements of at least 1000 more soldiers, helicopters, fighting and spying drones and other junk being supplied by the rest of NATO.

Of course, if our minority government gets forced to call in elections and the conservatives go out of power, chances are that we'll call off troops entirely no matter what happens. This Afghan quagmire is extremely unpopular here, we've been doing more than our fair share of the job, and we're getting tired of footing the bill both in terms of money spent and lives lost in a fight that we don't see coming to an end anytime soon. Moreover, all three opposition parties (The Bloc, NDP, and Liberals under Stephane Dion, who are likely to be the next government should the conservatives lose) are in agreement about getting our soldiers home.

So yeah.

Yeah, well, something had better be done, because I don't think Canada is going to be staying there very long unless something happens. The Harper government has decided to follow the Manley report's suggestions, and that means that before we confirm that our troops are going to stay in Afghanistan past 2009, we want to hear about reinforcements of at least 1000 more soldiers, helicopters, fighting and spying drones and other junk being supplied by the rest of NATO.

Of course, if our minority government gets forced to call in elections and the conservatives go out of power, chances are that we'll call off troops entirely no matter what happens. This Afghan quagmire is extremely unpopular here, we've been doing more than our fair share of the job, and we're getting tired of footing the bill both in terms of money spent and lives lost in a fight that we don't see coming to an end anytime soon. Moreover, all three opposition parties (The Bloc, NDP, and Liberals under Stephane Dion, who are likely to be the next government should the conservatives lose) are in agreement about getting our soldiers home.

So yeah.

The UK is already stretched beyond operational capacity and it's harming both moral and soldier retention rates. It will help a bit once we're fully pulled out of Iraq, but we simply don't have the manpower to send more (we already have significantly more there than any of the NATO forces except the US, and our army is considerably smaller). Of course part of this is due to Iraq in the first place, both because it took troops away from Afganistan and because it fueled a lot of anti-west sentiment in the region, which is hardly helpful to stopping taliban recruitment.

Of course, Gates is not exactly good at making himself popular with the NATO allies, which is hardly helping his case (in fact he seems to be handling things in exactly the way to get them all pissed off)

Yup, incredible how Bush administration is good to piss off everyone, but...

I know that here in France, the Afghan NATO lead operation is not badly perceived, we were the first there with the US, and we think that the Afghan War was a good choice ( in total opposite to the Irak stupid dumbass roadtrip )

Yet, we have pulled out our special forces last year and haven't by all means lost as many troops as the UK, US or Canadian, and now concentrate only on rebuilding the country and helping them putting their own fighting and police force on foot.
So our public opinion is not as stressed as it could be, if we were fully engaged.

Thus, I can't see how could we sent more troops there, because of Lebanon and Africa...
_In Lebanon, the French forces are the biggest part ( even if Italia as promised to sent more troops than us, for now, they have still half less soldiers than us on the country... )
_In Côte d'Ivoire, we have just ended a civil war last year ( and haven't messed up this time, the both sides are on the government now ) and have to maintain a strong military contingent in order to keep things like this.
_In Tchad, we are saving the ass of the dictatorial power from Islamis for something like 30 years
_And now we form the bulk of the EU task force for Darfour, sending more than 2000 troops on a total of 3800...( the UK contribution to this operation is...4 non-combat officers...so I really knew how far your ressources are streched, brothers )

The truth is that in EU, there's a lot of countries who claim a lot of things but do nothing...actually, the Poles are going to send more soldiers to joint operation than Spain or Italy, who on the other hand are immediatly after UK and France on an economical point of view ( and use it badly everytime we negociate something )
Germany is a special issue, for they have very restrictive laws about foreign intervention, everyone's remember why :]

The two strongest NATO countries are already engaged all ower the world and, the greatest reserve of man power is now Turkey...but I think that asking them to go in Afghanistan is a very very very very bad idea, for everyone.
The Turks have the same approach of civilians populations than the Russians.

Yeah, exactly. OMGOMGOMG what CAN WE DO?!?

Oh, I know! We let the Germans take over some more and when they lose, it's all their fault, too! :rolleyes:

Hmm, I dunno. I generally like to stick the Belgians with that sort of task.

Germany is a special issue, for they have very restrictive laws about foreign intervention, everyone's remember why :]
Well, the laws aren't actually all that restrictive. Parliament's gotta approve the mission, but other than that there are really no legal barriers to sending standard troops.

The few conscripts and reserves still left are only allowed to be used for the "Verteidigungsfall", meaning the Soviet invasion, but sending those anywhere would do more harm than good anyways. They're likely to get chronic diarrhea and shoot their various extremities by accident.

It's just really, really hard to get parliament to approve a mission. It was one of the biggest deals in the history of the Federal Republic when they approved taking part in bombing Serbia (and all the Germans did was send anti-radar Tornados to keep the paths clear for the actual bombers).

As it is it has been really hard to convince German voters (and hence German MPs) that fighting in Afghanistan is necessary. Germans like to kid themselves that problems can best be solved with building schools and handing out candy, and in so far as the Bundeswehr does this, they are very popular. The actual fighting in the south is seen as an American, cowboy, "let's bomb everyone" thing and hence a lot less popular.

The sad fact is that there is no one there explaining that without the fighting there will be no schools and no candy because the Taliban will take over again - and this time they'll probably be an even bigger problem because they'll be looking straight to the south. Of course there's the other side, namely that without candy and schools the fighting won't ever end - but the two are interlinked regardless.

And as such I think it's quite dishonest and cynical for German politicians and voters to refuse getting involved with the fighting and let soldiers from other countries die instead, particularly if Germany's long-term strategic interests would want NATO to continue well into the 21st century.

And on a domestic level too, there has got to be a point where Germany can finally normalise its relationship with history. If Western militaries these days are for trying to help the people in failed states make their futures, then that will involve ending conflicts. And sometimes you get situations where the only realistic way of ending them is to side with one party and just win it. Particularly if one side is as bad as the Taliban or the Lord's Resistance Army. Regardless whether this is done as Germany or as the EU, what won't help is Germans continuing to act all funny about it, some 73 years after the whole affair ended. Hell, if you wanted, you could even make a fairly credible claim that Germany should give itself the responsibility to prevent Nazi-like excesses from reoccuring, and much like the Nazis didn't stop after being nicely asked to, neither will the next genocidal bunch of maniacs in Africa or wherever.

The two strongest NATO countries are already engaged all ower the world and, the greatest reserve of man power is now Turkey...but I think that asking them to go in Afghanistan is a very very very very bad idea, for everyone.
The Turks have the same approach of civilians populations than the Russians.
Still, Turkey is a huge strategic asset for NATO as far as the Middle East and Central Asia are concerned. If Turkey can't do peacekeeping, then maybe NATO should ask them to learn. And soon.

Might be a better way of spending time and money than bombing PKK rebels who are gonna be back the next week anyways.

Why exactly should the Germans send additional troops to another region other their own?


LEBENSRAUM !!!
Gates is asking for "totalen Krieg"!

our Marine is busy ramming themselves off the coast of Lebanon or putting their ships on rocks in Norway or damaging their newest corvette in a channel.
send them back to school
Though one has to admit it's a little bit unfair for the Canadians, British and Dutch to do all the dying.

add Australia to that list and we not part of nato

add Australia to that list and we not part of nato
Australia isn't doing much dying either. ;)

Uruzgan isn't as bad as Helmand and Kandahar. Really my point was that the Germans are quite happy to stay up north and want nothing to do with the difficult parts of the country. But I did include the Dutch, so your point is taken.

Australia isn't doing much dying either. ;)

Uruzgan isn't as bad as Helmand and Kandahar. Really my point was that the Germans are quite happy to stay up north and want nothing to do with the difficult parts of the country. But I did include the Dutch, so your point is taken.

four is still way too much for some and from what i hear we work well next to the Dutch

four is still way too much for some and from what i hear we work well next to the Dutch
Hence why I acknowledged your point.

By the way, the news is that, unsurprisingly, the German Defense Minister has answered "no". So we're all happy for blood to be shed, as long as it's not German. That would just be bad for his career.

http://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutschland/0,1518,532553,00.html

Neu Leonstein, thanks for the precisions, I didn't knew this, I agree on all you're saying.
Germany could and should get back as a military power, and I'm saying this even if 9 members of my family where killed in the last war ( mmh...wondering if the two kids who were killed in a US "funny" blind artillery shelling are counting... )

At this point, the " failures of the past " are more a common excuse for the politics than anything else, you have done all you can to redeem yourselves and haven't to be judged for what your grand-fathers have done.

Yeah, Turkey should learn peacekeeping.
And, on a propaganda point of view, muslim soldiers of a muslim country could really help, when you operate in another muslim country...

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,532476,00.html

And here's the article in English.

Hmm, I dunno. I generally like to stick the Belgians with that sort of task.

Tiens, voilà du boudin, voilà du boudin, voilà du boudin
Pour les Alsaciens, les Suisses et les Lorrains,
Pour les Belges, y en a plus, Pour les Belges, y en a plus,
Ce sont des tireurs au cul.

:p