NationStates Jolt Archive

My personal opinion on the British government right now is that they refuse to stand up to the Russian bully and put there foot down. Vladimir Putin will see a return to autocracy in Russia, and will end the hope of democracy brought in by the former presidents Yeltsin and Gorbachov.

Even the murder of a British citizen on British soil was not enough to convince the government to take action. David Milliband said that it was 'unacceptable', without actually taking any serious action.

Now with the enforced and underhand tactics of the new KGB, the FSB (Putin’s domestic security and intelligence service), only one remaining office of the British Council has not been forced shut. There used to be twelve.

They are making it extremely difficult for British citizens to obtain visa's, they are expelling British diplomats and they are making dangerous threats against western europe.

Propaganda in the 'public' news service Russia Today was demonstrated when Andre Lugovoy was interviewed. It is clearly acted and Lugovoy proclaims the corruption of the British Government and Justice System.

Here is the video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sinZoby25aA

I implore you, the people of Britain, to write to your MP and ask for a tougher, more courageous and tenacious stance against Russia and Putin. Its not like Russia over here, we the people run the country and its time Britain stopped groveling and stood up for what she believes in.

I'm sure you would all agree with me when I say that Winston Churchill is spinning in his grave.

Pity they have Europe by the balls, isn't it?

I want a pullout of all British citizens in Russia and diplomats. All international relations should be cut off and then we shall see how well the Russians take not having such an influence.

I want a pullout of all British citizens in Russia and diplomats. All international relations should be cut off and then we shall see how well the Russians take not having such an influence.Hope you don't mind freezing during Winter...

I want a pullout of all British citizens in Russia and diplomats. All international relations should be cut off and then we shall see how well the Russians take not having such an influence.
Like, say, cutting of our gas supplies?

And screw the government telling me which countries I'm allowed and not allowed to visit.

What do you want? A decleration of war?

Britain has a spine, but Tony Blair broke it bending over backwards for the Bush administration.

I know that currently, Russia control the fuel taps to europe. Russia are playing a waiting game, and when the fuel reserves run dry, Mother Russia is back in business.

You're aware that we... trade with them? Quite a lot, actually.

And, hang on, your solution to increasing Russian hostility, is (rather than those pussy diplomatic channels), is the equivalent and turning our backs on them and sticking our fingers in our ears?

And freezing to death. Don't forget the freezing.

What do you want us to do? Shout "Stop doing that, it's not nice!" louder?

I want a pullout of all British citizens in Russia and diplomats. All international relations should be cut off and then we shall see how well the Russians take not having such an influence.

You're aware that we... trade with them? Quite a lot, actually.

And, hang on, your solution to increasing Russian hostility, is (rather than those pussy diplomatic channels), is the equivalent and turning our backs on them and sticking our fingers in our ears?

yeah Russia is doing this purely randomly and this whole dance has nothing to do with treating Russia like dirt for the past 19 years

I'm sure you would all agree with me when I say that Winston Churchill is spinning in his grave.

good, though I'm sure he was already spinning when the government discovered cruelly oppressing native people because they where somehow deemed inferior was a bad thing

So long as my parents and grandparents need gas to heat their homes, I'm all for keeping quiet.

*looks at current state of affairs in America*
Damn...
*Looks at current problem in Britain*
Double Damn....
*Looks around for a reasonable English speaking country to move to*
*Sees nothing*
*Begins writing Texas' Declaration of Independence from the United States*

*looks at current state of affairs in America*
Damn...
*Looks at current problem in Britain*
Double Damn....
*Looks around for a reasonable English speaking country to move to*
*Sees nothing*
*Begins writing Texas' Declaration of Independence from the United States*
Why Texas?

why not?....besides I'm already in Texas....I don't want to go anywhere if I don't have to

*Looks around for a reasonable English speaking country to move to*
*Sees nothing*


What about Trinidad and Tobago Mon?

Trinidad and tobago?......don't I have to get vaccinated to go there?

Russia and the UK (and England, even) have about 500 years of history between them. It started out OK, with Ivan III and Henry VII (I think) established the Anglo-Russian company. The British started regretting it a few years later with Ivan IV, even though Ivan was basically an anglophile, as with many Tsars thereafter.
So basically, the Russian leadership has always been trying to court the UK, and has almost always been snubbed, led on for political reasons or, in a few cases, outright attacked.
And, of course, there's some resentment over the British tendancy to claim that little things like, say, the Napoleonic Wars, were won entirly by the British. At least, thats the message our history books here in the US try to send.
I mean, its almost like watching somebody kick a puppy :P
OK...its not THAT bad. But really, the enitire 'Great Game' was essentially the result of paranoid nutjobs in London and only became a reality after somebody told the Russians about it.

And now, UH OH, Russia suddenly has 4/5ths of a royal flush and their leader isnt so much of a fan of the British anymore. Oh deary deary me.
Historical irony is the best kind, I think.

My personal opinion on the British government right now is that they refuse to stand up to the Russian bully and put there foot down. Vladimir Putin will see a return to autocracy in Russia, and will end the hope of democracy brought in by the former presidents Yeltsin and Gorbachov.

Even the murder of a British citizen on British soil was not enough to convince the government to take action. David Milliband said that it was 'unacceptable', without actually taking any serious action.

Now with the enforced and underhand tactics of the new KGB, the FSB (Putin’s domestic security and intelligence service), only one remaining office of the British Council has not been forced shut. There used to be twelve.

They are making it extremely difficult for British citizens to obtain visa's, they are expelling British diplomats and they are making dangerous threats against western europe.

Propaganda in the 'public' news service Russia Today was demonstrated when Andre Lugovoy was interviewed. It is clearly acted and Lugovoy proclaims the corruption of the British Government and Justice System.

Here is the video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sinZoby25aA

I implore you, the people of Britain, to write to your MP and ask for a tougher, more courageous and tenacious stance against Russia and Putin. Its not like Russia over here, we the people run the country and its time Britain stopped groveling and stood up for what she believes in.

I'm sure you would all agree with me when I say that Winston Churchill is spinning in his grave.

I don't think a spine is the problem.

Why would we oppose a powerhungry self-idolising fascist, in his iron grip of his own nation, and apparent desires to extend his dominion internationally?

We've been supporting him for 7 years.

The idea of a Russian playing the same role fills me with less-than-dread.

My personal opinion on the British government right now is that they refuse to stand up to the Russian bully and put there foot down. Vladimir Putin will see a return to autocracy in Russia, and will end the hope of democracy brought in by the former presidents Yeltsin and Gorbachov.

Even the murder of a British citizen on British soil was not enough to convince the government to take action. David Milliband said that it was 'unacceptable', without actually taking any serious action.

Now with the enforced and underhand tactics of the new KGB, the FSB (Putin’s domestic security and intelligence service), only one remaining office of the British Council has not been forced shut. There used to be twelve.

They are making it extremely difficult for British citizens to obtain visa's, they are expelling British diplomats and they are making dangerous threats against western europe.

Propaganda in the 'public' news service Russia Today was demonstrated when Andre Lugovoy was interviewed. It is clearly acted and Lugovoy proclaims the corruption of the British Government and Justice System.

Here is the video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sinZoby25aA

I implore you, the people of Britain, to write to your MP and ask for a tougher, more courageous and tenacious stance against Russia and Putin. Its not like Russia over here, we the people run the country and its time Britain stopped groveling and stood up for what she believes in.

I'm sure you would all agree with me when I say that Winston Churchill is spinning in his grave.

Well, if you can propose a way to function sustainably without any imports from Russia, natural gas being the main one....

Also, 'we' do not run the country, the people we voted in to power run the country. Diplomacy is about talking and resolving issues, not standing around with our backs to others and our fingers in our ears.

Why is Russian authoritarianism any of our business?

Yeah, fine, they killed a Russian turncoat living in Britain - but then we're not giving them Boris Berezovsky, who should be kicked out of the country sharpish tbqh.

What are we going to do about them, do you propose?

Britain has a spine, but Tony Blair broke it bending over backwards for the Bush administration.

Although this statement is virtually true, I think you will find it wasn't backwards that Blair was bending. My lodger has a picture of Blair with a gimp outfit (minus mask) super-imposed on it.... at least, I thinkit is super-imposed. Its quite disturbing really.

But as far as Britain and Russia is concerned, I think staying on reasonably peaceful and friendly terms is the best way forward for the time being. You don't improve relationships by slamming doors.

Yeah, fine, they killed a Russian turncoat living in Britain
While spreading radiation across the city and committing the minor crime or murder. I wouldn't be so dismissive of Russian security forces who feels free to kill whoever they please, wherever they please.

Also, there is the issue of Russian interference with the sovereign affairs of former-Soviet states in Eastern Europe and its abuse of its energy resources to attempt to force these countries away from the European Union and back under the influence of Russia.

So while you might think what happens in Russia is none of our business (I disagree, but that is not important), Putin is not limiting his authoritarianism to his own country. He is attempting to dominate Eastern Europe and his security forces seem to still be operating as though it is the Cold War.

That said, the answer is not to stamp our feet and refuse to talk to them. Europe needs to reform its energy markets to help reduce its dependency on Russian energy while also engaging with Russia and attempting to coax it out of its nationalist shell. An impossibility perhaps, but without engagement things will only get worse.

I think staying on reasonably peaceful and friendly terms is the best way forward for the time being. You don't improve relationships by slamming doors.
As the late Neville Chamberlain might have said...

_______________________________________________________________________

Dealing with Russia: Step One

Increase other sources of power to sufficient levels for doing without Russian gas to be feasible.

Britain has a spine, but Tony Blair broke it bending over backwards for the Bush administration.

Erm, no, standing up against terrorism =! bending over backwards for Bush. When you have allies you're supposed to help them out when they're attacked, not sit back and bitch about how environmentally unfriendly their leaders are. I wouldn't expect leftists to understand a concept as important as loyalty, though...

Should we take a greater stance against Russia...?

Well actually I think that we should befriend Russia. Whether they return to autocracy really isn't an issue, they've been autocratic since the dawn of time and never developed democracy and I highly doubt that they will. A strong Russia, friendly to the west with good trading ties is better for us, because we can move them away from China and Iran and towards us. In this case, its better we make Russia friendly with NATO then reinstigate a second cold war, especially with Iran and China kicking about. (Same opinions go for India, really. They could be very valuable friends.)

You Must Be Like Putin

Erm, no, standing up against terrorism =! bending over backwards for Bush. When you have allies you're supposed to help them out when they're attacked, not sit back and bitch about how environmentally unfriendly their leaders are. I wouldn't expect leftists to understand a concept as important as loyalty, though...

Should we take a greater stance against Russia...?

Well actually I think that we should befriend Russia. Whether they return to autocracy really isn't an issue, they've been autocratic since the dawn of time and never developed democracy and I highly doubt that they will. A strong Russia, friendly to the west with good trading ties is better for us, because we can move them away from China and Iran and towards us. In this case, its better we make Russia friendly with NATO then reinstigate a second cold war, especially with Iran and China kicking about. (Same opinions go for India, really. They could be very valuable friends.)


I agree with what you say about Russia and India, although personally I think that Russia and China are both trying to follow similar nationalist and expansionist paths.

However, what you said about America is wrong. Yes they were attacked and we aided them, along with many other nations, in Afghanistan. All the American posteuring since has been nothing to do with terrorism but lead by a desire for oil and business.

Russia, China, USA, Iran. Different aims, similar methods.

Erm, no, standing up against terrorism =! bending over backwards for Bush. When you have allies you're supposed to help them out when they're attacked, not sit back and bitch about how environmentally unfriendly their leaders are. I wouldn't expect leftists to understand a concept as important as loyalty, though...

Should we take a greater stance against Russia...?

Well actually I think that we should befriend Russia. Whether they return to autocracy really isn't an issue, they've been autocratic since the dawn of time and never developed democracy and I highly doubt that they will. A strong Russia, friendly to the west with good trading ties is better for us, because we can move them away from China and Iran and towards us. In this case, its better we make Russia friendly with NATO then reinstigate a second cold war, especially with Iran and China kicking about. (Same opinions go for India, really. They could be very valuable friends.)

Why not China?

Well actually I think that we should befriend Russia. Whether they return to autocracy really isn't an issue, they've been autocratic since the dawn of time and never developed democracy and I highly doubt that they will. A strong Russia, friendly to the west with good trading ties is better for us, because we can move them away from China and Iran and towards us. In this case, its better we make Russia friendly with NATO then reinstigate a second cold war, especially with Iran and China kicking about. (Same opinions go for India, really. They could be very valuable friends.)
Yeah, those damn freedom-hating commies! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novgorod_Republic)
Seriously though, its a little late for Europe and the US to try befriending Russia. Russia might be willing to USE Europe/the US, but Russia's days of idolizing everything that goes on in the West are over and gone. A lot of Russians in the Soviet days might've seen the West as better, but now, when theyre just coming out of what a lot of people see as an age of anarchy brought on by silly 'Western' ideas and their leadership deciding to take on a democracy suppository.
Why do you think the Russians are friendly with Iran, despite the risks?
Aside from money, it pisses off the US and weakens US-European ties.

And what do you think we should do when Putin starts re-taking the old Soviet Union/Russian Empire? And you know he will. Ukraine, Belarus, Caucuses and Central Asia have virtually always been a part of Russia. Hell, Ukraine is practically where Russia was created.
And it probably wont stop there. Poland, Finland and the Baltic States are also traditional 'colonies'. And you'd feel really bad if poor Fass got drafted when the Ruskies decided that Sweden looked like a nice colony too.

So, unless you want to be part of Putin's goal of re-creating the Warsaw Pact/Russian Empire, I'd advise being extremly cautious, and avoiding 'just helping out'.

Yeah, fine, they killed a Russian turncoat living in Britain

He wasn't Russian, he was a British Citizen, something the media seems to never mention.

He was given British citizenship in the late 90's, i seem to recall. That does not mean the term 'russian turncoat' does not apply still. He was a russian in the KGB and he did spill the beans and make some very serious allegations against Putin and the FSB. To call him a British Turncoat would imply that he had betrayed Britain, surely.

The British dont need spines. They are a very nice polite people that i consider a cross between Canadians and Mormons.

As the late Neville Chamberlain might have said...
Yaay!

Let’s take on particular example of when negotiation didn’t work, then expand it to a universal law that ‘negotiation never works, ever’!

It’s this sort of stunningly obtuse political insight that draws me to NS:G.

As the late Neville Chamberlain might have said...

_______________________________________________________________________



Actually Chamerlain never really had a choice but to appease Hitler, as Britian at that time had an army not ready to fight, and the British public were dead against wars and very scared of them since the First World War (1914-1918)and Spanish Civil War (1936-1939) even the newspapers were set agianst war or threat of war.
If you want to blame any Prime Ministers for appeasement try Ramsey Macdonald 1931-1935 and/or Stanly Baldwin 1935-1937, as they had the better opportunities to stop Hitler. Even then things were pretty tricky for Britian as the Great depression set in military funding had to be averted to help the population.
so there.