NationStates Jolt Archive

No Germany was screwed pretty hard

however yes we do all secretly wish the Germans had won

edit: puts thread high in tree where Dyakovo can't reach

Do you think that Germany would have fared better in WWII if Hitler hadn't let his personal dislike of Ernst Heinkel interfere with the He-280 entering production?



here's the wiki link to the He-280 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/He-280) for those who want some quick and dirty info on it.

Do you think that Germany would have fared better in WWII if Hitler hadn't let his personal dislike of Ernst Heinkel interfere with the He-280 entering production?



here's the wiki link to the He-280 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/He-280) for those who want some quick and dirty info on it.

Sure, but they would have lost no matter what (except if they got alien technology).

The sheer production power they were up against made it only a matter of time.

No Germany was screwed pretty hard

however yes we do all secretly wish the Germans had won

edit: puts thread high in tree where Dyakovo can't reach

Bastard, give me my thread back!!! :mad: :p

And this is not a case of wishing Germany won, just a case of examining how the war might have been different if Hitler hadn't been such an idiot

Click Stand;13410626']Sure, but they would have lost no matter what (except if they got alien technology).

The sheer production power they were up against made it only a matter of time.

Well, yeah, Hitler made so many tactical and strategic errors that one correction wouldn't have saved them.

From the moment they invaded the Soviet Union, nothing could have saved the Third Reich.

It's simple economics. The Soviet Union could outproduce the Nazi empire at it's largest in every way - manpower, raw materials, processed materials, final product. Only if the Germans had built and used nuclear devices could they have won that war.

makes sense. right up until the nuclear devices bit, and how would they deliver a nuclear payload? As their airforce was drastically reduced after the battle of Britain. I don't they they would have won, but they could make everyone lose as a sort of last man standing blows everyone up.

You're assuming the use of an aircraft as a delivery system. A V2 could have carried the Little Boy bomb, iirc, and there certainly would have been no problem with, say, sending a U-Boat into Leningrad harbour and detonating the bomb there.

Or just waiting for the Soviet Army to enter an area and blowing them away with a pre-placed weapon.

From the moment they invaded the Soviet Union, nothing could have saved the Third Reich.

It's simple economics. The Soviet Union could outproduce the Nazi empire at it's largest in every way - manpower, raw materials, processed materials, final product. Only if the Germans had built and used nuclear devices could they have won that war.

makes sense. right up until the nuclear devices bit, and how would they deliver a nuclear payload? As their airforce was drastically reduced after the battle of Britain. I don't they they would have won, but they could make everyone lose as a sort of last man standing blows everyone up.

makes sense. right up until the nuclear devices bit, and how would they deliver a nuclear payload? As their airforce was drastically reduced after the battle of Britain. I don't they they would have won, but they could make everyone lose as a sort of last man standing blows everyone up.

Heinkel He 177 Greif, also the Luftwaffe did do a lot of restrengthening after the Battle of Britain, not to mention the possibility of using V-2 rockets depending upon what they were targeting

Edit, also the Heinkel He 277

Do you think that Germany would have fared better in WWII if Hitler hadn't let his personal dislike of Ernst Heinkel interfere with the He-280 entering production?Did the plane have a magical way of producing fuel and manpower out of thin air? Unless that was the case, I must say no.

Did the plane have a magical way of producing fuel and manpower out of thin air? Unless that was the case, I must say no.

No, but it was a better plane than the Me-262 and would have entered service earlier, thusly having the potential of seriously hampering U.S. and British bombing raids.

From the moment they invaded the Soviet Union, nothing could have saved the Third Reich.

It's simple economics. The Soviet Union could outproduce the Nazi empire at it's largest in every way - manpower, raw materials, processed materials, final product. Only if the Germans had built and used nuclear devices could they have won that war.

Here here :)

From the moment they invaded the Soviet Union, nothing could have saved the Third Reich.

It's simple economics. The Soviet Union could outproduce the Nazi empire at it's largest in every way - manpower, raw materials, processed materials, final product. Only if the Germans had built and used nuclear devices could they have won that war.

Actually if they had succeeded in taking Moscow, things might have turned out very differently (of course that's another really big if :rolleyes:)

No, but it was a better plane than the Me-262 and would have entered service earlier, thusly having the potential of seriously hampering U.S. and British bombing raids.A superior plane without sufficient fuel is just as much a piece of scrap metal as one that is worse.

A superior plane without sufficient fuel is just as much a piece of scrap metal as one that is worse.

The point I was trying to make was that it would have entered service in 1942, which was before Germany got into really dire straits fuel wise, and could possibly have hampered allied allied bombing raids, thusly effectively increasing German fuel stores.

The point I was trying to make was that it would have entered service in 1942, which was before Germany got into really dire straits fuel wise, and could possibly have hampered allied allied bombing raids, thusly effectively increasing German fuel stores.It would have? According to your source, they were still on prototypes due to difficulties in patching the engine together as late as 1943, when the program had already been cancelled. While not getting canceled may have sped things up a bit, probably not fast enough for it to enter service before the fuel started becoming low.

It would have? According to your source, they were still on prototypes due to difficulties in patching the engine together as late as 1943, when the program had already been cancelled. While not getting canceled may have sped things up a bit, probably not fast enough for it to enter service before the fuel started becoming low.

Meant to type could, not would. Of course if it had the only real effect it would have had, would probably been to force the allies to take jet research more seriously (the only real effect the Me-262 had)

Do you think that Germany would have fared better in WWII if Hitler hadn't let his personal dislike of Ernst Heinkel interfere with the He-280 entering production?



here's the wiki link to the He-280 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/He-280) for those who want some quick and dirty info on it.

Better, maybe. They still would have lost. The natural consequence of trying to mastermind a three front war.

Do you think that Germany would have fared better in WWII if Hitler hadn't let his personal dislike of Ernst Heinkel interfere with the He-280 entering production?

here's the wiki link to the He-280 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/He-280) for those who want some quick and dirty info on it.

No.

The time it takes to train the pilots.
Fuel expenditure ratio vs production.
Length of time in air.

Air power alone would not have meant much. Look at Soviet Tank Production. The Stuka tank buster Rudel said he destroyed over 500 armored vehicles. He said he trained 60 men with over 100 each and still the tanks were endless. By the end of the war, the Germans only produced 500 King Tigers while the Soviets had over 4500 JSIIs.

It wouldn't have made a difference......

No. Hitler refused to allow his generals retreat even when a idiot who thinks tactics mean charging wildly at the enemy shouting on horses aganst tanks would have. Of course, if Germany had
1. Someone with an ounce of military sense as their leader.
2. Well... thats all they really needed.
However they would have eventually fell.

Bastard, give me my thread back!!! :mad: :p

And this is not a case of wishing Germany won, just a case of examining how the war might have been different if Hitler hadn't been such an idiot

Sending two million Germans to Russia was probably a bigger mistake. Imagine a million more Germans in N. Africa, and a million more at Normandy.

Sending two million Germans to Russia was probably a bigger mistake. Imagine a million more Germans in N. Africa, and a million more at Normandy.

On the other hand, there's a good chance that if he hadn't invaded the Soviet Union when he was ready (or so he thought), that once he commited the troops elsewhere, Stalin would have attacked.

On the other hand, there's a good chance that if he hadn't invaded the Soviet Union when he was ready (or so he thought), that once he commited the troops elsewhere, Stalin would have attacked.

True, but he still had defenses against Russia anyway.

And it probably would have been a lot harder for Russia to gain ground in the East if the South, and West were still held.

EDIT: He need not even have commited all of them, imagine half a million in both Africa, and Normandy, which still gives him a pretty strong extra million man army to defend against the soviets.

True, but he still had defenses against Russia anyway.

And it probably would have been a lot harder for Russia to gain ground in the East if the South, and West were still held.

True...

It all really boils down to Germany's military efforts were screwed by Hitler's micromanaging

True...

It all really boils down to Germany's military efforts were screwed by Hitler's micromanaging

Yeah, he made quite a few errors, then again, who is complaining? Lol.

Yeah, he made quite a few errors, then again, who is complaining? Lol.

His ghost? And a lot of ignorant neo-nazi's?

No, but it was a better plane than the Me-262 and would have entered service earlier, thusly having the potential of seriously hampering U.S. and British bombing raids.
Not really, since the Germans didn't have the fuel or manpower to commit to that kind of thing by the time that raids were going on at all times - i.e. by late 1943, when they were completely bogged down by the Eastern Front, both in terms of manpower and materiel.

No.

The time it takes to train the pilots.
Fuel expenditure ratio vs production.
Length of time in air.

Air power alone would not have meant much. Look at Soviet Tank Production. The Stuka tank buster Rudel said he destroyed over 500 armored vehicles. He said he trained 60 men with over 100 each and still the tanks were endless. By the end of the war, the Germans only produced 500 King Tigers while the Soviets had over 4500 JSIIs.

It wouldn't have made a difference......
Rudel is famous for his staggering bullshit claims, just to make that abundantly clear to everyone. That he plinked a couple of dozen tanks, maybe.

500 tanks? No.

True...

It all really boils down to Germany's military efforts were screwed by Hitler's micromanaging
No, Germany's military efforts were, ironically, screwed by their immense success in the first year and a half of the war, which left massive areas needing occupying troops, troops which Germany didn't really have going spare to properly prepare for an invasion of the Soviet Union and the defence of North Africa.

Also, the fact that their tanks were actually pretty sub-par was extremely disfavourable to them when they got to Russia - the Pzkpfw III might have been fine in France, but by the time we get the long 50, the first real anti-tank weapon on a German tank, appearing on Pz IIIs, we get large-scale production of the T34 Model 1942, which was a pretty respectable machine, and far better than anything the Germans had.

By the time we get widespread use of Pz IVs with long 75s, we also get the T-34/85, which was pretty much the best tank of the war - Panther fans would disagree, but the Panther was too heavy for its engine and supposedly an utter bitch to repair due to its complicated suspension, as well as being the victim of sabotage by the Jewish and POW workers that were making the things.

No, Germany's military efforts were, ironically, screwed by their immense success in the first year and a half of the war, which left massive areas needing occupying troops, troops which Germany didn't really have going spare to properly prepare for an invasion of the Soviet Union and the defence of North Africa.

That too is true

Also, the fact that their tanks were actually pretty sub-par was extremely disfavourable to them when they got to Russia - the Pzkpfw III might have been fine in France, but by the time we get the long 50, the first real anti-tank weapon on a German tank, appearing on Pz IIIs, we get large-scale production of the T34 Model 1942, which was a pretty respectable machine, and far better than anything the Germans had.

Another case of Hitler's micro-mismanaging, he didn't recognize the need for new tanks.

By the time we get widespread use of Pz IVs with long 75s, we also get the T-34/85, which was pretty much the best tank of the war - Panther fans would disagree, but the Panther was too heavy for its engine and supposedly an utter bitch to repair due to its complicated suspension, as well as being the victim of sabotage by the Jewish and POW workers that were making the things.

The real advantage the T-34 had was numbers

I've come to the conclusion that there is only one conceivable way Germany could have won it, namely if they had captured Moscow in 1941 and the USSR's political and military leadership fell apart then.

Basically Sealion could never have succeeded (even if they killed the RAF, the Royal Navy would still have been there) and neither could Fall Blau (not enough troops and too many partisans). And with the war going in the East the Luftwaffe would never have been able to provide enough planes and pilots to also fight off Allied bombers.

All in all, I'm glad that they lost it though. Who knows what sort of uniform I'd be stuck in today.

I've come to the conclusion that there is only one conceivable way Germany could have won it, namely if they had captured Moscow in 1941 and the USSR's political and military leadership fell apart then.

Which is what Germany was trying for

Basically Sealion could never have succeeded (even if they killed the RAF, the Royal Navy would still have been there)

Actually, at the beginning of the war the Kriegsmarine had the Royal Navy the short hairs, so if the Luftwaffe had been successful against the RAF, Unternehmen Seelöwe would have had a decent chance of success

and neither could Fall Blau (not enough troops and too many partisans). And with the war going in the East the Luftwaffe would never have been able to provide enough planes and pilots to also fight off Allied bombers.

And once again, it boils down to Hitler tried to fight too many people at once.

No, Germany's military efforts were, ironically, screwed by their immense success in the first year and a half of the war, which left massive areas needing occupying troops, troops which Germany didn't really have going spare to properly prepare for an invasion of the Soviet Union and the defence of North Africa.

Also, the fact that their tanks were actually pretty sub-par was extremely disfavourable to them when they got to Russia - the Pzkpfw III might have been fine in France, but by the time we get the long 50, the first real anti-tank weapon on a German tank, appearing on Pz IIIs, we get large-scale production of the T34 Model 1942, which was a pretty respectable machine, and far better than anything the Germans had.

By the time we get widespread use of Pz IVs with long 75s, we also get the T-34/85, which was pretty much the best tank of the war - Panther fans would disagree, but the Panther was too heavy for its engine and supposedly an utter bitch to repair due to its complicated suspension, as well as being the victim of sabotage by the Jewish and POW workers that were making the things.

The T-34's advantage was the fact it was simple design and mass produced. It had many annoying features such at the commanders seat didn't rotate with the turret.

As to Rudel? Well, opinions are one thing. Evidence is another. Got a linky or a reference to suggest he was BSing?

Another case of Hitler's micro-mismanaging, he didn't recognize the need for new tanks.
Nah. It was more that at the time when tank research and production should really have been at its height, the U-boats and Luftwaffe were having a lot more time and effort put into them.

Which was as much due to the current situation in the war for Germany as anything else - the U-Boats were absolutely necessary to keep the British on their toes and the Luftwaffe needed a refit for the upcoming attack on Russia.

Since the tanks used in Finland performed pretty poorly, I can understand why tank production and development wasn't taken particularly seriously.
The real advantage the T-34 had was numbers
Not really. Its main advantage was that you could put someone in it for a day and they could drive it, the gunner could easily understand the sights with absolutely minimal training, its gun was good enough to penetrate any German tank at the time and had a fair HE load, and its sloping armour was pretty useful.

The real problems with the pre-1943 models were the lack of radio, and the fact that the commander had to work as a loader. Apart from that, it was pretty respectable indeed.

The T-34's advantage was the fact it was simple design and mass produced. It had many annoying features such at the commanders seat didn't rotate with the turret.
In the 1940/41 versions, aye. That issue got sorted out pretty quickly.
As to Rudel? Well, opinions are one thing. Evidence is another. Got a linky or a reference to suggest he was BSing?
Oh please.

500-odd tanks, 800 soft-skinned vehicles, 2 destroyers, a cruiser and a battleship supposedly destroyed by this one man and his crew in a Ju-87-G1, a plane that couldn't carry more than 28 rounds for its 37mm cannons at a time?

That's an entire Soviet tank army, and then some.

Which is what Germany was trying for
Not initially. At the start Hitler was of the opinion that Moscow had no special meaning and was going for everything else. Not to mention that they started the invasion late anyways, thanks in no small part to Mussolini on the Balkans.

But yeah, it's not a particularly likely scenario that they could have won it. And even if Russia was defeated, there's still the question of whether the Allies would have eventually built nuclear bombers and just proceeded to take out German cities.

Actually, at the beginning of the war the Kriegsmarine had the Royal Navy the short hairs, so if the Luftwaffe had been successful against the RAF, Unternehmen Seelöwe would have had a decent chance of success
I don't see it. Overlord was done with a specially constructed fleet, one of the biggest ever assembled. There were infantry transports, various landing craft and so on and so forth.

The Germans basically requisitioned tugboats and river barges. That would have required completely still seas, and if you've ever been to the Channel, I don't think you get it too often.

As for the Royal Navy, most of their problems were in their own heads. They were worried about German ships escaping and sinking convois, so these hunts and searches kept going on in which German ships were able to enjoy some success for a while. But in the case of an invasion, the Royal Navy wouldn't have been in two minds about it. And in an all-out decisive battle, the Kriegsmarine wouldn't have had a chance. The Home Fleet and units in the Atlantic were twice as many as the entire German navy (link (http://www.naval-history.net/WW2CampaignRoyalNavy.htm)).

And once again, it boils down to Hitler tried to fight too many people at once.
Of course. But Nazi Germany wouldn't have been Nazi Germany if they hadn't been after the USSR the whole time.

as well as being the victim of sabotage by the Jewish and POW workers that were making the things.

Yeah, it turns out making people who are your enemy build something for you is a bad idea. They may not do the best job...

Click Stand;13411521']Yeah, it turns out making people who are your enemy build something for you is a bad idea. They may not do the best job...

Hogwash!

What possible reason could the Jews have to not support Nazi Germany?

Oh... yeah... I remember now... nevermind.

:p

how the war might have been different if Hitler hadn't been such an idiot
Uh, like not starting in the first place?

Hilter led a carbon copy war of Napoleon. What killed them both was that they invaded Russia and let themselves get caught in the winter weather. Had Hitler not split his forces to send one group down to capture the oil fields in the south, Hilter could have broken the backs of the Russians by the sheer speed of his attack and by capturing Moscow. Hilter could have isolated Russia, worn it down, and the Russian military would have crossed the breaking point the Russians stood on in Stalingrad. If he would have played his tactical cards right he could have accomplished a HUGE military victory. Then he could have concentrated all his attention on the western front. With his forces united I believe England would have fallen instead of achieving the stalemate they ended up with. Then we would have had to negotiate a truce because we would have been on our own against both Japan and Germany and we weren't capable of winning world war 2 by ourselves. What killed Hitler was that he split his attacking forces when going into Russia. That made it easier for the Russians to stall the Germans long enough for the winter to finish them off. Russia had more military forces then Germany but the Russians were horribly unorganized. Not even Stalin knew how many tanks or men he had. He just told everyone to attack and eventually everyone got the word. Besides that, Russia just came out of a back breaking revolution. Also, the Germans had much higher moral and they attacked with lightning speed. All in all, the Germans were the equal of the Russians but Hitler divided his attacking forces which knocked down the first domino.

-Snip-

Even if they did take Russia, they would have had no way of holding that much land along with the rest of the territories they already occupied. No matter what Hitler did, he was going to lose Russia eventually.

Click Stand;13411632']Even if they did take Russia, they would have had no way of holding that much land along with the rest of the territories they already occupied. No matter what Hitler did, he was going to lose Russia eventually.

Had they successfully taken the oil producing regions of southern Russia, that would not have been guaranteed. The German economy, despite the bombing campaign by Allied forces, was quite good at increasing war production and was in fact producing better weapons in greater quantity. If fuel supplies had been better, it's quite likely the Soviets would not have been able to achieve anything more than a stalemate.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BPckSPG5MFk

:)

((I'm only posting it for the beginning.))

Hilter could have isolated Russia, worn it down, and the Russian military would have crossed the breaking point the Russians stood on in Stalingrad.
The Russians were fine by Stalingrad. Compared to '41 they retreated fairly orderly and had reserves standing ready. So when Stalin finally gave the order to stop retreating, they had huge masses of troops ready for Operation Uranus.

Click Stand;13411632']Even if they did take Russia, they would have had no way of holding that much land along with the rest of the territories they already occupied. No matter what Hitler did, he was going to lose Russia eventually.
If they'd won in 1941, partisan activity wouldn't have been as big a deal. Back then there were a lot of right-wing groups in the USSR asking for ethnic independence and the destruction of Bolshevism, so the Nazis could have recruited from a huge pool of auxiliaries. Together with German troops that might have been enough to secure the vital resources and connections. As for actually using the land, it would have started with colonies of Germans, protected by various SS Units and over time the ethnic cleansing would have moved further east. If they played their cards right, they could have played the various ethnic groups against each other.

In the 1940/41 versions, aye. That issue got sorted out pretty quickly.

Oh please.

500-odd tanks, 800 soft-skinned vehicles, 2 destroyers, a cruiser and a battleship supposedly destroyed by this one man and his crew in a Ju-87-G1, a plane that couldn't carry more than 28 rounds for its 37mm cannons at a time?

That's an entire Soviet tank army, and then some.

Again that's simply an opinion. Not proof.

As to the ships vs 37 mm cannons. They used bombs. In the case of the Marat it was a 1000 pound bomb which is thought to have hit the ammo store.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BPckSPG5MFk

:)

((I'm only posting it for the beginning.))

Where do you get these wierd items of news and comedy?
I bet you're some sort of comedian nicking all these threads and putting them into performances, hmmm i could do that.

The Russians were fine by Stalingrad. Compared to '41 they retreated fairly orderly and had reserves standing ready. So when Stalin finally gave the order to stop retreating, they had huge masses of troops ready for Operation Uranus.


If they'd won in 1941, partisan activity wouldn't have been as big a deal. Back then there were a lot of right-wing groups in the USSR asking for ethnic independence and the destruction of Bolshevism, so the Nazis could have recruited from a huge pool of auxiliaries. Together with German troops that might have been enough to secure the vital resources and connections. As for actually using the land, it would have started with colonies of Germans, protected by various SS Units and over time the ethnic cleansing would have moved further east. If they played their cards right, they could have played the various ethnic groups against each other.
I'm not seeing it unless they also defeat the U.K. AND beat the Americans to a nuclear weapon, which just wasn't happening with only Heisenburg. No way. They would have needed Einstein at least, possibly even Fermi.

Where do you get these wierd items of news and comedy?

I'd tell you, but then I'd have to kill you. :p

Again that's simply an opinion. Not proof.

As to the ships vs 37 mm cannons. They used bombs. In the case of the Marat it was a 1000 pound bomb which is thought to have hit the ammo store.....
Just keep in mind that US and UK fighterbombers were found to have overestimated their kill tallies by about 90%. At least.

No reason to imagine that a Luftwaffe poster-boy wouldn't overestimate his kill tallies.

Wasn't the 262 also a jet engine plane? If this technology had been invented by the Germans a few years earlier say 1941-1942 then we would have seen a different outcome of the war
Not really, seeing as the fuel requirements were too high for the Germans, at any point in the war.

Do you think that Germany would have fared better in WWII if Hitler hadn't let his personal dislike of Ernst Heinkel interfere with the He-280 entering production?



here's the wiki link to the He-280 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/He-280) for those who want some quick and dirty info on it.

Wasn't the 262 also a jet engine plane? If this technology had been invented by the Germans a few years earlier say 1941-1942 then we would have seen a different outcome of the war

Wasn't the 262 also a jet engine plane? If this technology had been invented by the Germans a few years earlier say 1941-1942 then we would have seen a different outcome of the war

No.

What people seem to forget about jet engines is that they're not miracle workers, and that the first jet engines were only a couple hundred miles per hour faster than the prop planes. It's not like they suddenly turned into the F-22 Mach Three capable fighter jets that we have today.

Plus, the engines were far less fuel-efficient.

Well, if you have Germany secured on the eastern front and the resources and fuel coming in fairly regularly, huge German forces would be able to destroy any invasion. The Luftwaffe would over time have been able to restock and refit, and new technologies would have meant that the Allied bombing raids (which were already quite dangerous and difficult missions) would most likely have been very restricted.

So then you have some sort of status quo where neither side can do much but occasionally fire a missile across the Channel. So would there have been a peace deal, or a Phony War? Who knows. But what's clear is that getting a nuclear bomber into Germany would have been very hard with a working German air defense network. Considering that bomb production was slow to take off, the Germans might have asked for peace, but they'd never have accepted a surrender, change of government or signficant reductions in territory.

Perhaps before then the Nazis would have had ICBMs and hit New York and other cities. Together with basically no other good news from the front, that might have swung public opinion sharply against continuing a war with Germany too.
Point. We might've ended up with an alternate cold war.

Either way, though, the Reich would have eventually collapsed in on itself. Such a system is never truly sustainable.

I'm not seeing it unless they also defeat the U.K. AND beat the Americans to a nuclear weapon, which just wasn't happening with only Heisenburg. No way. They would have needed Einstein at least, possibly even Fermi.
Well, if you have Germany secured on the eastern front and the resources and fuel coming in fairly regularly, huge German forces would be able to destroy any invasion. The Luftwaffe would over time have been able to restock and refit, and new technologies would have meant that the Allied bombing raids (which were already quite dangerous and difficult missions) would most likely have been very restricted.

So then you have some sort of status quo where neither side can do much but occasionally fire a missile across the Channel. So would there have been a peace deal, or a Phony War? Who knows. But what's clear is that getting a nuclear bomber into Germany would have been very hard with a working German air defense network. Considering that bomb production was slow to take off, the Germans might have asked for peace, but they'd never have accepted a surrender, change of government or signficant reductions in territory.

Perhaps before then the Nazis would have had ICBMs and hit New York and other cities. Together with basically no other good news from the front, that might have swung public opinion sharply against continuing a war with Germany too.

Well, if you have Germany secured on the eastern front and the resources and fuel coming in fairly regularly, huge German forces would be able to destroy any invasion. The Luftwaffe would over time have been able to restock and refit, and new technologies would have meant that the Allied bombing raids (which were already quite dangerous and difficult missions) would most likely have been very restricted.
Just keep in mind that the Eastern Front would have to have gone right to Vladivostok if that's what it would have taken to slow Hitler's advance. He was never going to win on the Eastern Front - had he somehow gotten to Moscow, then it would have been 1812 all over again. The city would have been burnt down, the people would have fled, and Hitler would probably sit around waiting for JS' surrender pointlessly.

Just keep in mind that the Eastern Front would have to have gone right to Vladivostok if that's what it would have taken to slow Hitler's advance.
The assumption is a collapse of the Communist Party, and hence Red Army, and Stalin fleeing somewhere else, as inspired by his disappearance for a week or so when the Germans looked like they were going to take Moscow.

It's a long shot, and involves a lot of the psychology of seeing everyone else fall before Germany too, but in my opinion it's the only possible scenario in which the Nazis could have "won".

The assumption is a collapse of the Communist Party, and hence Red Army, and Stalin fleeing somewhere else, as inspired by his disappearance for a week or so when the Germans looked like they were going to take Moscow.

It's a long shot, and involves a lot of the psychology of seeing everyone else fall before Germany too, but in my opinion it's the only possible scenario in which the Nazis could have "won".
I'm sure their magical supply lines which would have allowed them to have fought effectively that close to Moscow, also most of the population dying of Bubonic Plague instead of fighting or running, also the disappearance of the strongholds past the Urals, still easily accessible by rail, would play a part in that.

No.

What people seem to forget about jet engines is that they're not miracle workers, and that the first jet engines were only a couple hundred miles per hour faster than the prop planes. It's not like they suddenly turned into the F-22 Mach Three capable fighter jets that we have today.

Plus, the engines were far less fuel-efficient.

Ahh http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Me262 and 200 miles per hour faster than other plans is quite good. Had it been around in 1941 then the war may be different, as the Germans were not experiencing fuel shortages then.

Ahh http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Me262 and 200 miles per hour faster than other plans is quite good. Had it been around in 1941 then the war may be different, as the Germans were not experiencing fuel shortages then.

They'd just have started experiencing fuel shortages sooner, then. They tried to do far too much, and they failed.

This thread is just one big Godwin.

Ahh http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Me262 and 200 miles per hour faster than other plans is quite good. Had it been around in 1941 then the war may be different, as the Germans were not experiencing fuel shortages then.
The He-280 was no Me262.

Its range was only 370kms, and its top speed was 405mph - only about 25mph faster than a Supermarine Spitfire Mk. 5B, which was around at the same time, was being mass produced, and was pretty similarly armed - one less 20mm cannon, but with 4x .303 Browning MGs.

Just keep in mind that US and UK fighterbombers were found to have overestimated their kill tallies by about 90%. At least.

No reason to imagine that a Luftwaffe poster-boy wouldn't overestimate his kill tallies.

Sure there could be a question to numbers but the Soviets also produced a crazy amount of tanks. I read somewhere that with the T34 alone, it was something like 30 to 40 thousand tanks.

Outrageous claims are usually torn apart pretty quick and I haven't seen to much on Rudel. But I haven't been looking for them either.

The whole numbers thing will never be agreed on. The Germans inflated losses simply to get more replacement equipment. Russians inflated kills for propaganda......

Self serving on both sides.

The He-280 was no Me262.

Its range was only 370kms, and its top speed was 405mph - only about 25mph faster than a Supermarine Spitfire Mk. 5B, which was around at the same time, was being mass produced, and was pretty similarly armed - one less 20mm cannon, but with 4x .303 Browning MGs.

Indeed. Looking at its stats, it is extremely inferior to the later Me262. It would have been a waste to use it, in fact, because all Germany would succeed in doing is wasting more fuel for a plane that would be inferior overall to the current prop-propelled planes.

They'd just have started experiencing fuel shortages sooner, then. They tried to do far too much, and they failed.

Oh dear actually the reason why they were experiencing fuel shortages was becuase by mid 1944 they had lost a lot of thier oil fields not because they had developed the jet engine

I'm sure their magical supply lines which would have allowed them to have fought effectively that close to Moscow, also most of the population dying of Bubonic Plague instead of fighting or running, also the disappearance of the strongholds past the Urals, still easily accessible by rail, would play a part in that.

Actually, the Germans fought quite effectively close to Moscow. The Battle of Moscow was fought on a knife-edge - it was quite possible for Moscow to fall.

But Moscow isn't Russia, much less the whole of the Soviet Union. Moscow fell to Napoleon, but they fought on. There's no real reason the Soviet government shouldn't have done the same, UNLESS Stalin himself had died - I could see the confusion caused by his death being fatal.

Oh, and by the way, in 1941 there WERE no "strongholds past the Urals". The vast majority of Soviet manufacturing capability was concentrated in European Russia. It was over the next year that a massive quantity of men and machines, fully a quarter of their entire manufacturing capacity, was torn up, shipped east, and rebuilt in new locations safe from the Luftwaffe.

I've come to the conclusion that there is only one conceivable way Germany could have won it, namely if they had captured Moscow in 1941 and the USSR's political and military leadership fell apart then.

Basically Sealion could never have succeeded (even if they killed the RAF, the Royal Navy would still have been there) and neither could Fall Blau (not enough troops and too many partisans). And with the war going in the East the Luftwaffe would never have been able to provide enough planes and pilots to also fight off Allied bombers.

All in all, I'm glad that they lost it though. Who knows what sort of uniform I'd be stuck in today.

The British War College disagrees on Sealion. Their projection is that an attack launched either immediattely after Dunkerque or up to one year later had a 90% chance of success, the 10% failure rate dependent upon weather. The RN did not have sufficient craft to stop an invasion backed by the Luftwaffe available, with the majority of their strength scattered across the Atlantic defending convoys and enforcing the blockade. They estimate that it would have taken six weeks for Britain to fall.

It doesn't matter because there was always the Indiana Jones factor.

The He-280 was no Me262.

Its range was only 370kms, and its top speed was 405mph - only about 25mph faster than a Supermarine Spitfire Mk. 5B, which was around at the same time, was being mass produced, and was pretty similarly armed - one less 20mm cannon, but with 4x .303 Browning MGs.

I presume you mean the Mk VB actually the VB had a 371 mph while the Me262 had a top speed of 541 mph you do the math but it is more than 25 mph, the range was larger to 1050 km compared to 760 km. But yes the VB had two cannons with 4x .303 Browning guns where as the Me262 only had 4 30mm MK108 Cannons.

As I was referring to the Me262 and stating that if the jet engine had been developed earlier and this plane introduced a couple years earlier we could be looking at a different history

The British War College disagrees on Sealion. Their projection is that an attack launched either immediattely after Dunkerque or up to one year later had a 90% chance of success, the 10% failure rate dependent upon weather. The RN did not have sufficient craft to stop an invasion backed by the Luftwaffe available, with the majority of their strength scattered across the Atlantic defending convoys and enforcing the blockade. They estimate that it would have taken six weeks for Britain to fall.

The thing with this is that Hitler never intended to invade Britain he only intended to push the allied forces of the continent and hope that they would ally with him to defeat the one true enemy the Communists in Russia. After all that is why he pushed east, and yes had he taken Moscow in 1941 instead of getting to its doorstep and then moving south to take the oil fields he would have had a better chance. This is why Britain was never invaded, perhaps he should have done it as the Allies would never have been able to maintain a foothold in Europe and would have been forced to launch an invasion from North America a very difficult task

I presume you mean the Mk VB actually the VB had a 371 mph while the Me262 had a top speed of 541 mph you do the math but it is more than 25 mph, the range was larger to 1050 km compared to 760 km. But yes the VB had two cannons with 4x .303 Browning guns where as the Me262 only had 4 30mm MK108 Cannons.

As I was referring to the Me262 and stating that if the jet engine had been developed earlier and this plane introduced a couple years earlier we could be looking at a different history

He was referring to a comparison between the He-280 and the Mk VB

They would have won if they didn't invade the Soviet Union. Could have just kept bombing Britain into oblivion and just waited out for an armistice.

The one and only mistake Hitler made was hating us Jews. Had he loved Jews - he would have won.

The Jewish scientists would have helped him achieve scientific superiority for his weapons. All the efforts they invested in killing us - would be available for their military effort.

But first and foremost - the moral curse on them would not exist:

"And I will bless them that bless thee, and him that curseth thee will I curse" (Genesis 12, 3)

The one and only mistake Hitler made was hating us Jews. Had he loved Jews - he would have won.

Fail