NationStates Jolt Archive

Would this make you stop eating meat
This is a very interesting flash animation based of the matrix, If you like it watch two and two and a half, hope it interests you

www.themeatrix1.com

Nope, as long as it tastes good I couldn't care less ;)



The thread's mine now!!

This is a very interesting flash animation based of the matrix, If you like it watch two and two and a half, hope it interests you

www.themeatrix1.com

Personally i am contemplating on if i should stop eating all meat or not, it is a very powerful animation especially the last two parts.

Veggies are fine, and I sometimes do the all-veg thing when eating Indian takeaway or Chinese takeaway... but no, not giving up meat altogether, thanks.

Nah. The suffering makes the meat more tender.

This is a very interesting flash animation based of the matrix, If you like it watch two and two and a half, hope it interests you

www.themeatrix1.com

I think becoming a vegetarian or vegan is a very admirable goal, but one that's very hard to attain if you've eaten meat all your life. I tried it, and discovered it doesn't fit my present life-style and circumstances. If you're serious about giving up meat, I wish you all the best, and you'll be setting a great example.

Just be prepared for criticism. In my experience, the hardest part wasn't giving up meat, but putting up with all the tacky jokes that got old after the first twenty times.

Nope, as long as it tastes good I couldn't care less ;)



The thread's mine now!!

It seems this will be a war for the thread:sniper::sniper::sniper::sniper::sniper:

hopefully i can give it up for lent at least, it will be a start to fight aginst capitalistic meat companies, did you like the animation though/

I think becoming a vegetarian or vegan is a very admirable goal, but one that’s very hard to attain if you’ve eaten meat all your life...

Just be prepared for criticism. In my experience, the hardest part wasn’t giving up meat, but putting up with all the tacky jokes that got old after the first twenty times.
I’ve recently become a vegetarian and, conversely, have found it remarkably easy to stop eating all meat and the vast majority of animal products. I’m still working my way around dairy products, and giving up my favourite pint was kinda hard, but it’s surprising how even after a couple of days I was almost unconsciously checking labels and looking out for the big V on packaging.

Biggest problem (apart from the criticism you mentioned) can be summed up in one word: roughage.

Did anyone like the animation though?

Did anyone like the animation though?
It’s not great; I watched it years ago with little effect on me.

And Matrix rip-offs suck almost as much as Matrix: Reloaded did.

Have I cut down my meat consumption? Yes. Sometimes more, sometimes less. But not because of scaremongering or little internet flics.

Will I ever give it up completely? Very unlikely. I'm way too fond of the taste of it, especially grilled.

If you liked those little flash movies, take a look a "The Corporation": http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0379225/

I'd rather do something to help the homeless or things along those lines

not that conveniently ignoring the Vegetable-trix is acceptable behavior ;) (battery farming onions is horrific!)

thats brilliant, they should make that, maybe would all just starve to death, unless we find a more umane way to eat animals and plants:gundge:

Here are a bunch of good reasons to not eat meat. It's ruining the earth. http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/27/weekinreview/27bittman.html?_r=1&scp=2&sq=meat&st=nyt&oref=slogin

I've been a vegetarian my whole life. I don't like meat. I don't like the taste, I don't like looking at the blood covered guts of a dead thing, I don't like the risk of heart attack, I don't like anything about it.

no, it makes me hungry for McSmith burgers.

I’ve recently become a vegetarian and, conversely, have found it remarkably easy to stop eating all meat and the vast majority of animal products. I’m still working my way around dairy products, and giving up my favourite pint was kinda hard, but it’s surprising how even after a couple of days I was almost unconsciously checking labels and looking out for the big V on packaging.

Biggest problem (apart from the criticism you mentioned) can be summed up in one word: roughage.

The reason I turned away from vegetarianism is because I live in a house with five people, and we eat dinner together. There's often a lot of left-overs, and I realized there wasn't any point in not eating meat for moral reasons if it's just going to get thrown out.

When I move out on my own, I'll give vegetarianism another try, though.

The reason I turned away from vegetarianism is because I live in a house with five people, and we eat dinner together. There's often a lot of left-overs, and I realized there wasn't any point in not eating meat for moral reasons if it's just going to get thrown out.

When I move out on my own, I'll give vegetarianism another try, though.

This is my problem, left overs and my mom probably wouldnt let me do it for health reasons like the lack of iron and protein that comes with no meat.

Here are a bunch of good reasons to not eat meat. It's ruining the earth. http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/27/weekinreview/27bittman.html?_r=1&scp=2&sq=meat&st=nyt&oref=slogin

I've been a vegetarian my whole life. I don't like meat. I don't like the taste, I don't like looking at the blood covered guts of a dead thing, I don't like the risk of heart attack, I don't like anything about it.

Who cares? We'll either fuck up the Earth and deserve it or fix it. I have infinite faith in the ingenuity of humanity. We will always eat meat. It tastes good. We're built to eat it. We're figuring out ways to harvest and raise it more efficiently. It's a constantly evolving process, it's been evolving ever since humanity developed farming.

We will not destroy the planet by eating meat. To say we will is foolish.

So,... we go back to hunting in food down,... or we could just buy sustainable farming products at an increase of price.

This is a very interesting flash animation based of the matrix, If you like it watch two and two and a half, hope it interests you

www.themeatrix1.com

Seen it already. It doesn't interest me in the slightest.

P.eople
E.ating
T.asty
A.nimals

Here are a bunch of good reasons to not eat meat. It's ruining the earth. http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/27/weekinreview/27bittman.html?_r=1&scp=2&sq=meat&st=nyt&oref=slogin

I've been a vegetarian my whole life. I don't like meat. I don't like the taste, I don't like looking at the blood covered guts of a dead thing, I don't like the risk of heart attack, I don't like anything about it.

Here's a good reason to eat meat: http://a725.g.akamai.net/7/725/1095/000029/www.omahasteaks.com/gifs/big/tb008.jpg

:D :D :D

If anything, I could really go for some glazed baby back ribs, with delicious red-brown sweet BBQ sauce running over its sides.

Same old garbage, I suspect. Slaughtering animals isn't always pretty, but industry normally does a good deal to prevent suffering or stress among the animals in designing slaughterhouses.

Anway, the assumption that people will eat less meat if they see animals die has never rung true for me. I mean, perhaps a three-year old will be affected, but not normal adults.

Here are a bunch of good reasons to not eat meat. It's ruining the earth.

And eating all the plantlife is not going to ruin the earth?

Reguardless, the article you linked to is not about how meat is bad for the planet, it is about how the way that meat is currently harvested and produced is. All they need to do is think up a less polluting and unhealthy way to make the stuff.

Of course the vegitarian extremeists will just ignore the real meaning of the article and say that it is saying that meat is bad for the world. Becasue everyone knows that there are no carnivores natrually.

"Eggplant tastes like eggplant, but meat tastes like murder and murder tastes pretty damn good!" -Denis Leary.

:)

The only valid point I saw in the animation was the overuse of antibiotics, but this is not a symptom of factory farming - it's a chronic mistake being made by western societies in a thousand areas, from soap and cleaning products to simple overprescription for invalid purposes (such as viral infections). The "massive pollution" part is pretty much an outright lie - ecological regulations worldwide now require puddling pools and solid matter incineration as part of any factory farm.

Stop pretending you know what I'm going to say. It's annoying.

The only good way to eat meat is to kill it yourself. I think most people are too squeamish to kill fluffy little animals so it's hypocritical to keep buying it at the store. If everyone had to hunt their own meat they wouldn't eat so much of it, and it would taste better fresh.

Most people are too stupid and lazy to build their own computers from a barrel of oil and blocks of metal, so it's hypocritical to buy them from stores. If everyone had to build their own computers people would use less electricity.

i believe you are all missing the point. The animation (which is quite good) isnt trying to turn you all vegetarian, its just support means of pruducing meat and dairy in a way that is more humain to animals (by the way the irony in that almost makes me sick when animal rihts activist say it: "more HUMAIN to ANIMALS). Its supporting family farms as opposed to large corporations.

You may think that my views on the subject are contridictory but I'm actually just explaining the point of thr movies.

x

And eating all the plantlife is not going to ruin the earth?

Reguardless, the article you linked to is not about how meat is bad for the planet, it is about how the way that meat is currently harvested and produced is. All they need to do is think up a less polluting and unhealthy way to make the stuff.

Of course the vegitarian extremeists will just ignore the real meaning of the article and say that it is saying that meat is bad for the world. Becasue everyone knows that there are no carnivores natrually.Stop pretending you know what I'm going to say. It's annoying.

The only good way to eat meat is to kill it yourself. I think most people are too squeamish to kill fluffy little animals so it's hypocritical to keep buying it at the store. If everyone had to hunt their own meat they wouldn't eat so much of it, and it would taste better fresh.

This is a very interesting flash animation based of the matrix, If you like it watch two and two and a half, hope it interests you

www.themeatrix1.com

Moopheus... :D

Good times aside, the propoganda was thicker than the proverbial syrup that I had for proverbial breakfast this morning.

We could shut down all animal production, but there are much more fun ways to kill off humanity than starvation, I'm thinking Nuclear fallout.

That and, you know animals fight anyway, animals get diseases anyway, pollution happens far more from industrial factories than agrarian malpractice.

Stop pretending you know what I'm going to say. It's annoying.

The only good way to eat meat is to kill it yourself. I think most people are too squeamish to kill fluffy little animals so it's hypocritical to keep buying it at the store. If everyone had to hunt their own meat they wouldn't eat so much of it, and it would taste better fresh.

But then people complain that your an OMG T3h B4rb4r14n H5nt3r, and your EBUL because you go out and kill bambi because you have massive bloodlust and like killing things because it makes you happy in your pants. And you kick kittens. With spikes.

Most people are too stupid and lazy to build their own computers from a barrel of oil and blocks of metal, so it's hypocritical to buy them from stores. If everyone had to build their own computers people would use less electricity.That isn't the same, nobody had to kill the metal so it could become a computer. And there's no reason people would use less electricity if they built their own stuff. It would just take longer to upgrade.

At least people couldn't pretend to care about animal suffering while eating veal at the same time. They'd have to choose a freaking side.

It is rather hypocritical, yes. It is hard to care about animals and eat them. That's why I don't (care about animals, that is).

But then people complain that your an OMG T3h B4rb4r14n H5nt3r, and your EBUL because you go out and kill bambi because you have massive bloodlust and like killing things because it makes you happy in your pants. And you kick kittens. With spikes.At least people couldn't pretend to care about animal suffering while eating veal at the same time. They'd have to choose a freaking side.

This is a very interesting flash animation based of the matrix, If you like it watch two and two and a half, hope it interests you

www.themeatrix1.com

*yawn*

We're winning at evolution right now. This is what the winners at evolution do.

So what?

Stop pretending you know what I'm going to say. It's annoying.
.

Uh, when did I pretend to know what you were going to say?

I said nothing about what you would say.

At least people couldn't pretend to care about animal suffering while eating veal at the same time. They'd have to choose a freaking side.

Well, you have a point there. People are way too squeamish.

I wouldn't have a problem, though. I worked in an abbatoir for six weeks just out of high school.

That isn't the same, nobody had to kill the metal so it could become a computer. And there's no reason people would use less electricity if they built their own stuff. It would just take longer to upgrade.

Extracting all the parts for a computer does damage to the environment and hence kills things indirectly. Less people will bother to build their own things if they can't buy them from a shop, foregoing computers altogether and hence using less electricity.

I've seen the Meatrix(1). While it gave me no desire to stop eating meat, I would prefer if the animals were raised in better conditions. In fact, it planted the seed of an idea to raise my own chickens at some point. Surely I can do a better job of it than the likes of Tyson.



The only good way to eat meat is to kill it yourself. I think most people are too squeamish to kill fluffy little animals so it's hypocritical to keep buying it at the store. If everyone had to hunt their own meat they wouldn't eat so much of it, and it would taste better fresh.The killing part doesn't bother me. It's the gutting it that's disgusting! Ugh.

But this area's too built-up to have chickens now, let alone cows or pigs. And your suggestion of "hunting" meat instead of going to the store sucks for several reasons, none of which have anything to do with squeamishness.

If I go to the store and buy a couple of pieces of meat, I get the kind I want, I don't have to spend all day getting it, and I can get just the amount I need.

None of the above is true of hunting. Hunting means going somewhere where it's allowed, getting there at some godawful time, hoping something edible comes along that day--and is in good enough range to actually be able to hit it where the bullet or arrow will kill it (remember, most people can't aim worth a damn, me included), being able to haul the carcass back out of the woods, gutting and butchering the carcass, and having a freezer big enough to store all the meat once that's all accomplished.

Going to the store solves all those logistical problems.

At least people couldn't pretend to care about animal suffering while eating veal at the same time. They'd have to choose a freaking side.

It is rather hypocritical, yes. It is hard to care about animals and eat them. That's why I don't (care about animals, that is).

Now, I agree with this.

No, my body is made to take both plant and animal matter.

I do disagree with how the animals are often treated, especially on factory farms, but that doesn't mean I'll stop eating meat.

This is a very interesting flash animation based of the matrix, If you like it watch two and two and a half, hope it interests you

www.themeatrix1.com

Heh. Saw this years ago, and was already a vegetarian.

snip

Hush! People are busy trying to appear morally superior and/or manly. We don't need your fancy logic and reasoning here!

This is a very interesting flash animation based of the matrix, If you like it watch two and two and a half, hope it interests you

www.themeatrix1.com

I didn't watch the flash animation, because I'm not going to stop eating meat. So - the animation is kind of irrelevent.

I suspect this is going to be about how animals are treated... which is irrelevent to the question of whether or not we should eat meat - I have personally been the human 'on hand' at a lambing, fed, cared for, sheared, and generally raised, the stock... then killed it and butchered it. I think meat animals should be treated humanely, but I still think their ultimate goal is to get in mah belly.

This is a very interesting flash animation based of the matrix, If you like it watch two and two and a half, hope it interests you

www.themeatrix1.com
More anti-corporate crap spewed by the hippies. Oh noez! Some companies found a way to make farming more efficient, to produce more than subsistence agriculture is capable of. If this continues we actually may be able to end world hunger in our lifetimes. The horror!

I know where my meat comes from. I don't have a problem with it. I do have a problem with organic pork that isn't given any antibiotics because the last 2 times I ate it I got very bad food poisoning. I'm not eating the red berries again.

I didn't watch the flash animation, because I'm not going to stop eating meat. So - the animation is kind of irrelevent.


That is almost like a Christian saying they are not going to read your evidence since they are not going to stop believing anyway ;)

However, the animation is indeed dull, uninspired and so painfully biased it will probably inspire people to eat more of it.

A far more efficient way to go about this is teaching that most humans should consume less meat, since meat overconsumption is not healthy. And a slab at dinner everyday definitely falls in the overconsumption category.
And if people will eat less meat, they will be able to afford the better or even the animal friendly stuff.

There's already enough FOOD to end world hunger today, if there was a will.

And a good logistics network.

More anti-corporate crap spewed by the hippies. Oh noez! Some companies found a way to make farming more efficient, to produce more than subsistence agriculture is capable of. If this continues we actually may be able to end world hunger in our lifetimes. The horror!


That's a pretty naive suggestion, don't you think?

There's already enough FOOD to end world hunger today, if there was a will.


I know where my meat comes from. I don't have a problem with it. I do have a problem with organic pork that isn't given any antibiotics because the last 2 times I ate it I got very bad food poisoning. I'm not eating the red berries again.

Sounds more like a problem with the cooking than the farming.

And a good logistics network.

Which couldn't come under the 'if there was a will' heading?

That is almost like a Christian saying they are not going to read your evidence since they are not going to stop believing anyway ;)


Not really. I already did the research. I lived both sides of the fence (I was a vegetarian for about 3 years)... and it's not a matter of supportable/unsupportable 'faith'. Meat is good. I like to eat it. I am aware of the dark truths surrounding the farm-to-plate process, and I am content to eat meat anyway... from a position of knowledge, not ignorance.

I wish I could be more selective, but I'm not in a position to be farming my own meat, any more.


A far more efficient way to go about this is teaching that most humans should consume less meat, since meat overconsumption is not healthy. And a slab at dinner everyday definitely falls in the overconsumption category.


Overconsumption of anything is unhealthy. Educating people about balance is far more important than suggesting the catalogue of woes surrounding emat.


And if people will eat less meat, they will be able to afford the better or even the animal friendly stuff.

No, probably not. Lots of people are hard stretched to put decent meat on the table.

Peta propaganda? Hell no. I hate Peta.

A far more efficient way to go about this is teaching that most humans should consume less meat, since meat overconsumption is not healthy. And a slab at dinner everyday definitely falls in the overconsumption category.
And if people will eat less meat, they will be able to afford the better or even the animal friendly stuff.

Very true that a lot of people do eat too much meat, but then moderation is the key to any healthy diet, be it moderation of meat, fats, sugar, salt etc...

I do disagree with many of the ways meat is farmed and will generally try and buy free range where possible. I will not however stop eating meat, because we have evolved to eat it and I find it very tasty. This is not to say eating meat is for everyone, nutritional studies have indicated that approx. 25% of people probably are natural vegitarians who do best on diets containing little or no meat (and certainly red meat). On the other side about a quarter of people's bodies have evolved to eat diets containing high percentages of meat. The majority of people fall somewhere in the middle.

I suppose the conclusion of this is that you should eat the diet that's right for your body type, but we should probably work on better and more humane farming techniques for animals. It's better for the animals and in the long term, it's better for us too.

I never hear someone say "but we didn't evolve to sit all day at a desk".

Serious? I hear that a lot. Or at least things along similar lines.

I'm already a vegetarian, so no, it didn't have much effect on me.


I do disagree with many of the ways meat is farmed and will generally try and buy free range where possible. I will not however stop eating meat, because we have evolved to eat it and I find it very tasty. This is not to say eating meat is for everyone, nutritional studies have indicated that approx. 25% of people probably are natural vegitarians who do best on diets containing little or no meat (and certainly red meat). On the other side about a quarter of people's bodies have evolved to eat diets containing high percentages of meat. The majority of people fall somewhere in the middle.

Sources?

Honestly I find the "we've evolved to eat meat" argument pretty weak. We sure didn't evolve to live like we do now, but that argument only gets used when it comes to eating meat. I never hear someone say "but we didn't evolve to sit all day at a desk".
It's also not because we evolved to do something that we should do something, I choose to believe we're more than animals.

Serious? I hear that a lot. Or at least things along similar lines.

Yes, serious. And what would people saying that think about becoming hunter gatherers, what they were evolved to do?

Yes, serious. And what would people saying that think about becoming hunter gatherers, what they were evolved to do?

Hmm, maybe it's an English phrase. Or more likely I'm just delusional.

I suppose one could argue that man's evolutionary success comes from using as many tools and the like as possible, and our current teched-up state is a natural progression of this.

Hmm, maybe it's an English phrase. Or more likely I'm just delusional.

Oh, it's possible that there are people saying that, I just haven't heard it.

I suppose one could argue that man's evolutionary success comes from using as many tools and the like as possible, and our current teched-up state is a natural progression of this.

Could be possible, but even if it is and if we evolved to eat meat that doesn't mean it's good or that we should do it.

Oh, it's possible that there are people saying that, I just haven't heard it.



Could be possible, but even if it is and if we evolved to eat meat that doesn't mean it's good or that we should do it.

If we evolved to eat meat it would mean that eating meat to an extent was healthy for us (yes?) which counters an argument used by some vegetarians. But otherwise, yeah, 'we've evolved to do it' is silly.

If we evolved to eat meat it would mean that eating meat to an extent was healthy for us (yes?)

No, not really, it means that eating meat gave us an evolutionary advantage. This could be because meat was healthy but also because it was easy to obtain, or because it gave us many calories and proteins in an environment where it was hard to live on vegetables and fruits alone. So eating meat during our evolution meant that we got the proteins and calories we didn't get from vegetables and fruits. It could be possible that a vegetarian diet, when enough vegetables and fruit is available is healthier than an omnivorous diet, which in turn is healthier than a vegetarian diet which doesn't give us enough calories and proteins.

I think the most healthy diet is one with milk, eggs and fish, but certainly no red meat. And it's entirely possible to live healthy as a vegan (although it will probably take a little bit more effort to make sure you eat everything you need).

Who honestly cares about animals? They're just tools for us humans to exploit. I say survival of the strongest!

You can't do everything that humans where "evolved to do." You can't walk 20 miles barefoot per day, kill everyone who makes you angry, use your natural body odor to attract a mate, and sacrifice virgins to the sun goddess.

A human's natural diet is mostly grains and vegetables with few fatty foods (including meat), most Americans do not stick to that natural diet even if they claim they're doing what they evolved to do.
No, not really, it means that eating meat gave us an evolutionary advantage. This could be because meat was healthy but also because it was easy to obtain, or because it gave us many calories and proteins in an environment where it was hard to live on vegetables and fruits alone.Meat was never easy to obtain in a world without guns. People would be lucky if they got to eat meat once per week. That's why the average American heart can't handle the amount of saturated fat it's forced to deal with today.

Who honestly cares about animals? They're just tools for us humans to exploit. I say survival of the strongest!

:rolleyes:

Who honestly cares about blacks? They're just tools for us whites to exploit. I say survival of the strongest!

Who honestly cares about women? They're just tools for us males to exploit. I say survival of the strongest!

...

At least people couldn't pretend to care about animal suffering while eating veal at the same time. They'd have to choose a freaking side.

But it's so fucking cold out during hunting season...

I eat meat, and will continue to do so. But only meat that comes from animals arising from a humane rearing and slaughter process - which means organic and free-range.

Battery farmed chicken, penned pigs and livestock stuffed full of growth hormones and antibiotics are out, however. If that means I eat half as much meat, c'est la vie. About half of the food I prepare don't have any meat in.

Firstly, organic and free range meat tastes better - it has a better flavour and texture, and takes on marinades and seasoning better than a lump of watery, textureless, glutinous pap. And, for Pete's sakes, someone is killing the animal so I can eat it. I'm demanding with my consumer vote that the animal be raised and slaughtered humanely.

Biggest problem (apart from the criticism you mentioned) can be summed up in one word: roughage.You also forgot about your other biggest problem, severe vitamin B-12 deficiency.

B12 is naturally found in milk... which means vegans are in trouble. The vegetarian diet isn't deficient in anything if you do it the right way.

I remember seeing that a long time ago, lol. I already don't eat meat, almost three years strong as a vegan!

This is a very interesting flash animation based of the matrix, If you like it watch two and two and a half, hope it interests you

www.themeatrix1.com

It isn't about whether you eat meat or not. It is asking you to buy ethically reared meat from small farms and businesses rather than from big greedy corporations. If anything it is asking you to carry on buying meat but asking you to choose where you buy it very carefully. The same principles can go into whether you buy organic fruit and vegetables or Genetically modified.

This animation has nothing to do with vegetarianism.

This animation has nothing to do with vegetarianism.
Well... The connection exists. It's asking you not to get meat from sources that exhibit animal cruelty, which may or may not be all of them. My family is predominantly vegetarian by necessity because we would have been dependent on supermarkets as a meat source, which are known for being less than blameless in supporting mass-meat production methods. I live in a smaller town than them and can get my meat from local produce, so I don't need to be vegetarian, but I can see why people in bigger cities may need to forego meat if they want to discourage poor practice in meat production.

:rolleyes:

Who honestly cares about blacks? They're just tools for us whites to exploit. I say survival of the strongest!

Who honestly cares about women? They're just tools for us males to exploit. I say survival of the strongest!

...

Are you comparing women and blacks to animals?!?

Racist Sexist Pig! :mad:


;)

In order to become a vegetarian, you pretty much have to like mushrooms. Every damn meat substitute is either soy or mushrooms, and soy products are a shitty substitute. And I fucking hate mushrooms. Who the bloody fuck decided it was a good idea to eat a damn fungus anyway? "Hmmm, I saw something growing on my bath mat that looked an awful lot like this; I guess I'll eat it." And half the ones out there kill you anyway. Seriously. What the fuck.

I don't eat veal, foie gras, or anything I'm sure was made with excess cruelty. But beyond that, damnit, I like meat and potatoes, and meat is half of that.

You also forgot about your other biggest problem, severe vitamin B-12 deficiency.
I still eat dairy, so that's in no way a problem. A vegetarian diet provides more than enough nutrition. If I eventually decide to cut out dairy (which I probably will) vitamin supplements and a properly constructed diet can account for the loss of B12 in dairy products.

The reason I turned away from vegetarianism is because I live in a house with five people, and we eat dinner together. There's often a lot of left-overs, and I realized there wasn't any point in not eating meat for moral reasons if it's just going to get thrown out.
I also live in a shared flat, and shared meals were something I had to consider. We've found that most meals we make together can either be totally vegetarian, or if there is a big bit of meat used, I can have a vegetarian alternative, and the others just don't cook as much meat.

It's worked so far. Hell, we just had a Burns Supper with both veggie and bog-standard haggis, and it was a very successful meal.

I see little reason not to eat meat; as long as you take some care about how the animals that end up as it are treated..

As for which is better or worse for the earth, consider http://www.news.cornell.edu/stories/Oct07/diets.ag.footprint.sl.html
Diet for small planet may be most efficient if it includes dairy and a little meat, Cornell researchers report(But do note it says a little meat, so not amount we consume in the west these days.)

Come March and I will be completing 3rd year since I went vegetarian. I used to eat all kinds of meat before and I don't feel like I am missing something. I don't understand the fuss about "loss of proteins, iron and nutrients" etc. There are plenty of vegetarian sources for all that we need for regular healthy living.

On crappy meat substitutes - that's only because you are picking the wrong cuisine. If you pick cuisines which make everything else the same and just substituting meat with soy/mushroom - it will be crappy. You gotta pick cuisines which have naturally evolved to bring the best out of veggies - Indian, Chinese, Thai etc.

Are you comparing women and blacks to animals?!?

Racist Sexist Pig! :mad:


Rather a racist sexist pig than a puppy-cuddling-PETA-supporting-cow-hugging-vegetarian. I'm a real manly man, I wrestle with my meat before eating it, just to establish who's the strongest so I can exercise my evolutionary right to eat meat.
Besides, I saw on television that not eating meat can cause a person to grow multiple vagina's. :eek:

I like hunting and trapping too much to give up eating meat. Plus I can sell the hides and use the innards.

Already a vegan. I don't bother to try and convert people. All their own choice. But I'll watch that thing anyway.

I am already a vegetarian, so no effect.

Living Graves

We are the living graves of murdered beasts,
Slaughtered to satisfy our appetites.
We never pause to wonder at our feasts,
If animals, like men, can possibly have rights.
We pray on Sundays that we may have light,
To guide our footsteps on the path we tread.
We're sick of war, we do not want to fight -
The thought of it now fills our hearts with dread,
And yet - we gorge ourselves upon the dead.

Like carrion crows we live and feed on meat,
Regardless of the suffering and the pain
we cause by doing so, if thus we treat
defenceless animals for sport or gain,
how can we hope in this world to attain,
the PEACE we say we are so anxious for.
We pray for it o'er hecatombs of slain,
to God, while outraging the moral law,
thus cruelty begets its offspring - WAR.

-George Bernard Shaw.

I am already a vegetarian, so no effect.

Living Graves

We are the living graves of murdered beasts,
Slaughtered to satisfy our appetites.
We never pause to wonder at our feasts,
If animals, like men, can possibly have rights.
We pray on Sundays that we may have light,
To guide our footsteps on the path we tread.
We're sick of war, we do not want to fight -
The thought of it now fills our hearts with dread,
And yet - we gorge ourselves upon the dead.

Like carrion crows we live and feed on meat,
Regardless of the suffering and the pain
we cause by doing so, if thus we treat
defenceless animals for sport or gain,
how can we hope in this world to attain,
the PEACE we say we are so anxious for.
We pray for it o'er hecatombs of slain,
to God, while outraging the moral law,
thus cruelty begets its offspring - WAR.

-George Bernard Shaw.

So says the guy who thought Stalin had some good ideas.

We don't really eat that much meat at home, especially for south africans.
What we do eat tends to be of the free range chicken and game sort.

So says the guy who thought Stalin had some good ideas.

Wouldn't it be almost impossible for a person to never have good ideas? Hitler had the autobahn etc.

Wouldn't it be almost impossible for a person to never have good ideas? Hitler had the autobahn etc.

Problematic isn't it? It's tough to discuss Hitler's better civic achievements without enduring ad hominem attacks.

So says the guy who thought Stalin had some good ideas.

Some of Stalin's ideas were good, even if he was evil over-all. Why do you people always see in black & white? Besides, there were plenty of people who supported Hitler back then too, who later changed their minds.

Obviously not. If you've ever eaten a bacon sandwich, with plenty of brown sauce, you'll never want to become a veggie.

Some of Stalin's ideas were good, even if he was evil over-all. Why do you people always see in black & white?
WHY DO YOU LOVE STALIN? YOU EVIL COMMIE BASTARD!

(also, I agree with you completely - people had good and bad sides, for example Mussolini was actually somewhat spiffing before he let himself be dominated by Fascism, and not the other way 'round with the beginning of the Spanish Civil War).

Rather a racist sexist pig than a puppy-cuddling-PETA-supporting-cow-hugging-vegetarian. I'm a real manly man, I wrestle with my meat before eating it, just to establish who's the strongest so I can exercise my evolutionary right to eat meat.
Besides, I saw on television that not eating meat can cause a person to grow multiple vagina's. :eek:

That's horrible. 0-1 vaginas should be enough for anybody. *nod*

Some people are so greedy. :(

Here are a bunch of good reasons to not eat meat. It's ruining the earth. http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/27/weekinreview/27bittman.html?_r=1&scp=2&sq=meat&st=nyt&oref=slogin

I've been a vegetarian my whole life. I don't like meat. I don't like the taste, I don't like looking at the blood covered guts of a dead thing, I don't like the risk of heart attack, I don't like anything about it.

Actually, any kind of farming ruins the Earth. The kind of farming done for wheat and vegetables is responsible, daily, for the extinction of millions of species - they're not cute and cuddly (only ecologically necessary) so, of course, no one minds. I worked in a farm office for 23 years, the stories the field people told me about plowing under rabbit warrens and birds' nests (with baby birds still in them), about decapitating baby rabbits, possums, snakes all the animals that try to live on farm lands almost put me off vegetables. A properly maintained pastureland (for the record, I actively support sustainable agriculture) has more biodiversity and less impact on the environment than the best maintained cropped field. Of course, I don't eat factory-farmed meat and vegetables when given a choice.

:rolleyes:

Who honestly cares about blacks? They're just tools for us whites to exploit. I say survival of the strongest!

Who honestly cares about women? They're just tools for us males to exploit. I say survival of the strongest!

...

Are you serious? Comparing animals like dogs, cattle, etc. to HUMAN BEINGS? Get a grip on reality, plz. This is just like that bullshit PETA puts out comparing chicken slaughterhouses to the Holocaust. Despicable.

Are you serious? Comparing animals like dogs, cattle, etc. to HUMAN BEINGS? Get a grip on reality, plz. This is just like that bullshit PETA puts out comparing chicken slaughterhouses to the Holocaust. Despicable.

:rolleyes: I was merely pointing out where that kind of thinking has lead us in the past. And besides, are you suggesting we're not animals? Maybe it's you who should do a reality-check?

Are you serious? Comparing animals like dogs, cattle, etc. to HUMAN BEINGS?
Yup.

As human beings are animals, and we grant certain rights and protections to us animals because we can suffer, mentally and physically, why shouldn’t we prevent suffering of other, nonhuman, animals who can also, quite clearly, suffer mentally and physically?

I see no reason to, apart from the irrational ‘because they’re not one of my species’, or the outmoded, pre-Enlightenment way of thinking that treats nonhuman animals as simple machines.

I just finished a rather delicious New York Strip, and no, that flash won't make me change my mind about anything.

Oh, was it good... And to top it off, it had garlic butter all over it. Sweet.

I've seen that video before. It doesn't make a compelling argument for vegetarianism, but it does make a compelling argument for increased regulation and oversight of the meat industry.

Lisa: Do we have any food that wasn’t brutally slaughtered?
Homer: Well, I think the veal might have died of loneliness.

-The Simpsons, “Faith Off”

Actually, any kind of farming ruins the Earth. The kind of farming done for wheat and vegetables is responsible, daily, for the extinction of millions of species - they're not cute and cuddly (only ecologically necessary) so, of course, no one minds. I worked in a farm office for 23 years, the stories the field people told me about plowing under rabbit warrens and birds' nests (with baby birds still in them), about decapitating baby rabbits, possums, snakes all the animals that try to live on farm lands almost put me off vegetables. A properly maintained pastureland (for the record, I actively support sustainable agriculture) has more biodiversity and less impact on the environment than the best maintained cropped field. Of course, I don't eat factory-farmed meat and vegetables when given a choice.

Do you have any idea how much farming we have to do to raise and feed one cow? Then it is eaten. Gone, over. All that food used on it. Food that could have supplied several humans for years.

That's a pretty naive suggestion, don't you think?
What about it is naive? The first cartoon in this series came right out and said it, this cartoon is anti-big business. And science has already shown that genetic modification increases yeilds per acre and immunity. The whole point of ag technology is to increase productivity and food safety. And that's exactly what it does. Going backward really doesn't make any sense and organic farming is only seeing such a boom right now because of nostalgia and ignorance. Organic farming uses more land, creates more waste, and uses more dangerous "organic pesticides" like Nicotine Sulfate and Rotenone, the former being one of the most toxic naturally occuring substances known and the latter causes Parkison's.

There's already enough FOOD to end world hunger today, if there was a will.
Yeah, if we redistributed all food so that everyone got an equal share no one would die from starvation. Everyone'd look like a holocaust survivor or fashion model but they'd be alive. Now if you wanted to go the purely organic route you'd only be able to feed about 2/3 of the world's current population and I don't see 2 billion people just volunteering to disapear.

Sounds more like a problem with the cooking than the farming.
It was cooked plenty. I'd never had food poisoning from pork in my life until i tried the organic stuff that was never given any medical treatment during its life because some luddite prick thought that doing things the 16th century way was better than modern farming.

Look, my grandparents had 2 farms when my mother was growing up and 1 when I was growing up. They used milking machines. Why? Because it allowed them to milk more cows, make more money, and live easier. It's not a problem. Their cows didn't look like they were in terrible pain and they did get to graze in a pasture when weather permitted. They also got medical treatment and I personally fed the calves when I visited. They had all the equipment of a modern farm and sold their goods through big companies. They weren't evil or sadistic and they certainly have faces. They chose to modernize because it made sense.

Life is about risk and choice. And as for the whole MAD COW thing--well I'll get to that in a minute. In the US alone 700,000 people a year die from heart disease and most of them probably ate something buttery on a regular basis. Do you really want to risk it?

About 6,000 people a year are killed by fires. I know it ain't smoking in bed but you might want to think about that the next time you're at a candle-lit dinner.

Another 20,000 people a year are killed, murdered, most by someone they know. Better watch your back when your mom's around, for all you know she could snap at any moment.

Flu and Pneumonia kill, what, another 62k a year? And in the US alone 150 people die a day in car accidents.

Okay, let's talk about your steak. Between 1996 and 2004 139 people in the world died from an odd variation of Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease. When cows get it we call it MAD COW. As far as we know it doesn't cross species barriers and cows can't even get this terrible degenerative neurological disorder from other cows unless they eat the brains and spinal tissue of the afflicted cattle. And there is no evidence, none, that humans can get it from eating mad cow beef but that still 139 people that have died from this disease. Yeah, some of those people probably weren't even eating beef at all but it's still 139 out of 6 billion. Your chances of getting this are less than 1 in a freaking million. You'll likely never even meet someone who's friend's friend's brother knew someone who died from this.

Do you really want to chance it? With a name like MAD COW?

Predators eat meat and can consume plants, but prey only eat plants. Which type of human do you want to be?

Some of Stalin's ideas were good, even if he was evil over-all. Why do you people always see in black & white? Besides, there were plenty of people who supported Hitler back then too, who later changed their minds.

Who exactly are 'you people?'

Who exactly are 'you people?'

What would Ambrose Bierce say?

"Anyone who disagrees with me."

Predators eat meat and can consume plants, but prey only eat plants. Which type of human do you want to be?

Oh great hunter, please delight us with your epic tales of hunting in the nearest supermarket...

I believe the word you were looking for was scavenger.

Predators eat meat and can consume plants, but prey only eat plants. Which type of human do you want to be?

Genghis Khan ruled an empire, but the millions he killed only lived a short life.

Anyway, that is like living in a bad neighborhood. You get mugged, so you figure you will not longer be a victim if you mug someone else. But this is not a bad neighborhood, and killing and eating animals will not save us from other animals, nor are other animals coming to "get us" anyway.

Would this make you stop eating meat
Sounds like a rather simplistic approach; I've only watched through SOME of it so far but from what I've seen it seems to be about factory farms. So the real question to ask here is "Would this make you stop eating factory farmed meat?" and well... I keep forgetting to check the label to find out whether it was from a factory farm or not, but if I remembered, I'd avoid meat that comes from factory farms. Ironically my opposition to them is more on environmental grounds than "animal rights" grounds anyway.

The concept does not change.

The dominant animals all eat meat. Why a human being would want to be more on the level with the prey is beyond me. Then again, we live in a society where people actually believe in pacifism. Can you imagine what animals would do to one of their own who refused to fight and protect their own?

Humans have just lost a lot of perspective on the world. Genetically and culturally, we should eat meat.

The concept does not change.

Many people dislike being compared to a coyote instead of a lion ;)

Humans have just lost a lot of perspective on the world. Genetically and culturally, we should eat meat.

To a degree. We are not carnivores but omnivores - which means that we require some meat, but "some" is significantly less than a big piece (or even multiple pieces) a day. Most people in western Europe and especially in the USA eat far more than the healthy dosis of meat.

Aside from that, by saying "the dominant animals do it, so so should we" you are putting humans down to the animal level.

The concept does not change.

The dominant animals all eat meat.

So we should all be like Cortes the Conquerer? He won after all.

Why a human being would want to be more on the level with the prey is beyond me.

Being able to type on a computer is enough of a difference for me. I do not need to display my "manliness" by chewing flesh.

Then again, we live in a society where people actually believe in pacifism. Can you imagine what animals would do to one of their own who refused to fight and protect their own?

Nothing. If you think we fight for the same reason animals do, you are mistaken. We fight for boundaries and petty political problems. Also, who is to say who is the "protector" and who is the "aggressor"?

Humans have just lost a lot of perspective on the world. Genetically and culturally, we should eat meat.

Then I take it you have no problem with cannibalism?

P.S. So according to you, might makes right. If I could rape someone's wife and get away with it, who is to say it is wrong? After all, many "predators" rape their own.

To a degree. We are not carnivores but omnivores–which means that we require some meat...
We don’t ‘require’ any meat.

One can live a perfectly healthy life without eating any. Certain sects of Hindus have been doing so for thousands of years.

Aside from that, by saying “the dominant animals do it, so so should we” you are putting humans down to the animal level.
We are at the ‘animal level’.

We are all animals.

*snip*

One step at a time. Throwing all those facts at once at people just shuts them down.
Take it slow. Let them digest (how appropiate) it bit by bit.

Nothing can make me stop eating meat. NOTHING! :D

The concept does not change.

The dominant animals all eat meat. Why a human being would want to be more on the level with the prey is beyond me. Then again, we live in a society where people actually believe in pacifism. Can you imagine what animals would do to one of their own who refused to fight and protect their own?

Humans have just lost a lot of perspective on the world. Genetically and culturally, we should eat meat.

There are many herbivores that are at the top of their food chain too. Elephants, whales, kangaroos etc.
Humans also evolved as prey-animals, I'm pretty sure lions and tigers were above us when we didn't have guns.

There are many herbivores that are at the top of their food chain too. Elephants, whales, kangaroos etc.
Humans also evolved as prey-animals, I'm pretty sure lions and tigers were above us when we didn't have guns.

For a time.


Human being evolved because of meat. Meat is good for you, in the right amounts, and tastes great. I would never give up meat, though If someone else does, oh well. More meat for me, I guess.

First: No. Whales are predators. Actually take the time to do even 30 seconds of research before making a claim like that.

What, some whales eat plankton, don't they? Plankton are no animals, and what about elephants and kangaroos, they're at the top of their food pyramid and I'm pretty sure they eat plants.

There are many herbivores that are at the top of their food chain too. Elephants, whales, kangaroos etc.
Humans also evolved as prey-animals, I'm pretty sure lions and tigers were above us when we didn't have guns.
First: No. Whales are predators. Actually take the time to do even 30 seconds of research before making a claim like that.

Second: Humans are considered predators even without machine weaponry. I need only direct your attention to the image of the early Indian tribesmen spearing a woolly mammoth. This should be a duh. Just because something is a predator doesn't mean there aren't other predators that attack it also. This should also be a duh here.

Also:
"The foraging hypothesis is supported by data indicating that humans evolved as superpredators and manufacturers of highly complex tools by around 50,000 years ago, resulting in a wave of mass extinctions of large animals."

Source: http://www.csulb.edu/~kmacd/346IQ.html

First: No. Whales are predators. Actually take the time to do even 30 seconds of research before making a claim like that.

Second: Humans are considered predators even without machine weaponry. I need only direct your attention to the image of the early Indian tribesmen spearing a woolly mammoth. This should be a duh. Just because something is a predator doesn't mean there aren't other predators that attack it also. This should also be a duh here.

Also:
"The foraging hypothesis is supported by data indicating that humans evolved as superpredators and manufacturers of highly complex tools by around 50,000 years ago, resulting in a wave of mass extinctions of large animals."

Source: http://www.csulb.edu/~kmacd/346IQ.html

Humans weren't the only contributor to those extinctions, though in all likelyhood we played a part in it.

Just because of that movie, I'm going to go to the gas station and buy as much jerky as i can.

What a load of crap. Most of the drop off of indpentent farms was because most of the people moved to the cities to get better paying jobs. Corporate farms simply filled the gap. They complain that its cruel, but at the same time say we can't hunt for meat because its cruel. (which is crap but thats a debate for another thread)

They also complain about genitic enginering. Its simply a faster way of doing what we've done for thousand of years. We made modern farm animals what they are now.

What, some whales eat plankton, don't they? Plankton are no animals, and what about elephants and kangaroos, they're at the top of their food pyramid and I'm pretty sure they eat plants.
Some plankton, zooplankton, are animals. And both Orcas and Dolphins are whales and predators.

Kangaroo are a prey animal for humans and anything else that can take them down. Same for elephants. Elephants are difficult to take down when fully grown but if the babies can be seperated from their mothers soon enough they become fair game for anything that can catch them. The same is true of a lot of stuff which is why it's important that they are able to walk very soon after birth.

This is a very interesting flash animation based of the matrix, If you like it watch two and two and a half, hope it interests you

www.themeatrix1.comalready vegetarian =)

What, some whales eat plankton, don't they? Plankton are no animals, and what about elephants and kangaroos, they're at the top of their food pyramid and I'm pretty sure they eat plants.More of the same talking without CHECKING. "Plankton" is not a single tipe of organism, it's several of which many are animals including juvenile fish, krill, and several types of jellyfish.

Attn everyone: Please at least do a 12 second wikipedia check before talking junk.

More of the same talking without CHECKING. "Plankton" is not a single tipe of organism, it's several of which many are animals including juvenile fish, krill, and several types of jellyfish.

Attn everyone: Please at least do a 12 second wikipedia check before talking junk.

and Kangaroos? The statement was that all of the dominant animals eat meat.

Some plankton, zooplankton, are animals. And both Orcas and Dolphins are whales and predators.

Ok then, whales are predators.

Kangaroo are a prey animal for humans and anything else that can take them down.

Ok, humans can kill them, but we were talking about other animals than humans. But are there real predators hunting for kangaroos (excluding humans and animals imported by them)?

Same for elephants. Elephants are difficult to take down when fully grown but if the babies can be seperated from their mothers soon enough they become fair game for anything that can catch them. The same is true of a lot of stuff which is why it's important that they are able to walk very soon after birth.

Are there really animals with babies that aren't preys? I'm pretty sure that mature elephants are at the top of their food pyramid and aren't hunters.

I don't even remember what this has to do with vegetarianism though. I think having the ability to act moral kind of excludes the whole "but the other animals are doing it too"-argument. I also don't see why eating only vegetables would make me more of a prey than eating farmed meat, or why I should care.

Click Stand;13408902']and Kangaroos? The statement was that all of the dominant animals eat meat.My problem wasn't with the original statement. My problem was with people attempting to refute it with misinformation.

My problem wasn't with the original statement. My problem was with people attempting to refute it with misinformation.

Oh, well then, I agree with you.

I agree with the above, the problem with not eating corporate meat is where to get it though, according to the website the closest meat place is over 200 miles away for farm sold meat.:gundge:

This is a very interesting flash animation based of the matrix, If you like it watch two and two and a half, hope it interests you

www.themeatrix1.com

M.

E.

H.

I tend to distrust the corporate model anyway, so avoiding mass-produced meat is no biggie for me.

Many people dislike being compared to a coyote instead of a lion ;)



To a degree. We are not carnivores but omnivores - which means that we require some meat, but "some" is significantly less than a big piece (or even multiple pieces) a day. Most people in western Europe and especially in the USA eat far more than the healthy dosis of meat.

Aside from that, by saying "the dominant animals do it, so so should we" you are putting humans down to the animal level.

Not only that, but have you looked at the life-spans of dominant carnivore predators? Even in the best of conditions, how long do they live? Seems to me that our life-spans got longer with the ease of living and variety of diet offered by agriculture. Eating too much of ANYthing sounds like a bad idea to me.

The meat I eat usually has the address of the farm printed on it, so no meatrix for me ;) Even if not, there are still some labels that say 'no meatrix inside'. I would not buy any other meat.

Ok, humans can kill them, but we were talking about other animals than humans. But are there real predators hunting for kangaroos (excluding humans and animals imported by them)?
Not sure because I'm not an expert on the planet of Australia or its mayor but I wouldn't be at all suprised.

Are there really animals with babies that aren't preys? I'm pretty sure that mature elephants are at the top of their food pyramid and aren't hunters.
They're rarely killed because they're so big but I wouldn't put them at the top of a food chain because they can be killed with tooth and claw in a coordinated effort. And so far as babies that aren't prey, human children generally don't have to worry about that. But top predators do occasionally hunt other top predators so even humans can be killed from time to time.

I don't even remember what this has to do with vegetarianism though. I think having the ability to act moral kind of excludes the whole "but the other animals are doing it too"-argument. I also don't see why eating only vegetables would make me more of a prey than eating farmed meat, or why I should care.
So your idea of morality and ethics is absolute and everyone who disagrees with you is wrong. Ok fine, where's your proof?

Predators eat meat and can consume plants, but prey only eat plants. Which type of human do you want to be?

Vegetables are what food eats. :D

*snip

Wait, are you not the one...?

So you think it is alright to kill infants, just not animals?

Stop pretending you know what I'm going to say. It's annoying.

The only good way to eat plants is to kill then yourself. I think most people are too squeamish to kill leafy little plants so it's hypocritical to keep buying it at the store. If everyone had to hunt their own plants they wouldn't eat so much of it, and it would taste better fresh.

Works both ways.

A human's natural diet is mostly grains and vegetables with few fatty foods (including meat), most Americans do not stick to that natural diet even if they claim they're doing what they evolved to do.
Grains? Grains? Are you aware that grains are probably the single most recent addition to our diet on the planet? Our natural diet is citrus, bone marrow, and partially decayed flesh.

There are many herbivores that are at the top of their food chain too. Elephants, whales, kangaroos etc.

Whales, as previously mentioned, are all predators. And the plankton-eaters aren't at the top of their food chain, anyways. Kangaroos are not even close to the top of their food chain. Prior to humanity's encroachment, they were hunted by Thylacoleo and Thylacinus. Nowadays, they're preyed on by dingoes. Elephants aren't at the top of their food chain either. Lions preyed upon them before we killed most of them, and in some areas they still do.

Not only that, but have you looked at the life-spans of dominant carnivore predators? Even in the best of conditions, how long do they live? Seems to me that our life-spans got longer with the ease of living and variety of diet offered by agriculture. Eating too much of ANYthing sounds like a bad idea to me.
Depends on mass. Wolves and such are around ten years. Lions and tigers are around twenty. Dolphins are at around 60. The baleen whales are over one hundred. Carnivores tend to have longer lifespans than equivalently sized herbivores.

Seems to me that our life-spans got longer with the ease of living and variety of diet offered by agriculture.

Actually, the exact opposite is true. Our lifespans got shorter with the hard toil and limited diet offered by agriculture. Only very recently have they returned to their natural levels.

Do you have any idea how much farming we have to do to raise and feed one cow? Then it is eaten. Gone, over. All that food used on it. Food that could have supplied several humans for years.

Do you know how much oil is used to farm one acre of cropland? Then the crops are eaten and the oil is gone forever, with the exception of petrochemical pollutants in the water, air and land. Not only that, it's a negative return on investment. Or would you prefer to go back to the days of oxen-drawn plows and stoop labor?

Cows, incidentally, have a biodegradable by-product that can be used to aid in the growing of more crops: tractors, harvesters, landplaners, seeders, etc., don't.

Don't kid yourself, this is about more than food, it's about an industry that is destroying biomass and disrupting the ecology. Pastureland is less harmful to the ecology than cropland.

What about it is naive?


The idea that a big company increasing prodctivity per acre is going to somehow turn into a cure for world hunger.


The first cartoon in this series came right out and said it, this cartoon is anti-big business. And science has already shown that genetic modification increases yeilds per acre and immunity. The whole point of ag technology is to increase productivity and food safety.


Not at all - that is one of the goals of agricultural technology. You seem to envision a very one-sided version of the field - influenced, perhaps, by the profit-driven practises of your parent's parents?


And that's exactly what it does. Going backward really doesn't make any sense and organic farming is only seeing such a boom right now because of nostalgia and ignorance. Organic farming uses more land, creates more waste, and uses more dangerous "organic pesticides" like Nicotine Sulfate and Rotenone, the former being one of the most toxic naturally occuring substances known and the latter causes Parkison's.


No - organic farming is seeing such a boom right now because we are becoming increasingly aware of things like resistant bacteria, acquired resistance in pest animals, the transmission of additives throughout the foodchain, and a general awareness that modern farming practises are very destructive.

I wonder how Rotenone compares to DDT...?


Yeah, if we redistributed all food so that everyone got an equal share no one would die from starvation. Everyone'd look like a holocaust survivor or fashion model but they'd be alive.


Or not. Nice horror-story vision, but I suspect it exists more in your head than in viable data.


Now if you wanted to go the purely organic route you'd only be able to feed about 2/3 of the world's current population and I don't see 2 billion people just volunteering to disapear.


Don't know wht you're talking about. Looks like a red herring to me.


It was cooked plenty. I'd never had food poisoning from pork in my life until i tried the organic stuff that was never given any medical treatment during its life because some luddite prick thought that doing things the 16th century way was better than modern farming.


There is a difference between 'cooked plenty' and cooked correctly. My wife worked at a restaurant (where she was responsible for health and safety) that she ultimately quit... the simple reason was, she didn't want to be accountable for what the people in the restaurant would do (between inspections, obviously). They'd maintain cooking times and temperatures, for example - but they wouldn't wash implements between uses... and would do things like cutting cooked meat on the same board they had cut the raw meat on.

I'd say it's entirely possible your pork was cooked plenty... but badly.

I raised pigs for a decade, 'organically'. Not once in that time did I get any food-related illness. I also raised sheep, for their meat; chickens, ducks and geese for meat and eggs; and goats for their milk... all raised 'orgainically'... and no incidence of sickness.

So... sorry, but I just don't accept your horror-story version as realisitc or representative.


Look, my grandparents had 2 farms when my mother was growing up and 1 when I was growing up. They used milking machines. Why? Because it allowed them to milk more cows, make more money, and live easier. It's not a problem. Their cows didn't look like they were in terrible pain


And you can tell so much by cow facial expressions. I'm not sure what the significance is... you are basically admitting that your family was primely concerned with profit... well, I was primely concerned with quality of life, and quality of produce. Totally different agenda. Not the same ballpark, not even the same sport.


...and they did get to graze in a pasture when weather permitted. They also got medical treatment and I personally fed the calves when I visited. They had all the equipment of a modern farm and sold their goods through big companies. They weren't evil or sadistic and they certainly have faces. They chose to modernize because it made sense.


Okay. I have no idea what you think the point of this is - or how you think it relates to anything I said.


Life is about risk and choice. And as for the whole MAD COW thing--well I'll get to that in a minute. In the US alone 700,000 people a year die from heart disease and most of them probably ate something buttery on a regular basis. Do you really want to risk it?


Yes. I like butter.

But, again, I have no idea what the connection is supposed to be?


About 6,000 people a year are killed by fires. I know it ain't smoking in bed but you might want to think about that the next time you're at a candle-lit dinner.


Erm... okay. Increasingly no idea....


Another 20,000 people a year are killed, murdered, most by someone they know. Better watch your back when your mom's around, for all you know she could snap at any moment.


Oo-kay.

Is it time your meds were kicking in, or is this supposed to be something connected to the topic, or my posts?


Flu and Pneumonia kill, what, another 62k a year? And in the US alone 150 people die a day in car accidents.


Yes. Damn those vegetarians. Animals? Big Business? I don't KNOW - what's the point supposed to be?


Okay, let's talk about your steak. Between 1996 and 2004 139 people in the world died from an odd variation of Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease. When cows get it we call it MAD COW. As far as we know it doesn't cross species barriers and cows can't even get this terrible degenerative neurological disorder from other cows unless they eat the brains and spinal tissue of the afflicted cattle. And there is no evidence, none, that humans can get it from eating mad cow beef but that still 139 people that have died from this disease. Yeah, some of those people probably weren't even eating beef at all but it's still 139 out of 6 billion. Your chances of getting this are less than 1 in a freaking million. You'll likely never even meet someone who's friend's friend's brother knew someone who died from this.

Do you really want to chance it? With a name like MAD COW?

Not strictly true... there is evidence that diseased prions of both BSE and CJD can accumulate in human lymph nodes. What you perhaps mean is that no DIRECT mechanism is currently demonstrable (although the 'slow-virus' idea is quite popular).

We do know that the mechanism within a species seems transmissable through transfusion of dura mater, corneal tissue, pituitary growth hormone... possibly as a contaminant where insufficeint sterilisation takes place where contact is made between infected brain tissue, an outside material, and non-infected brain material. We know that the mechanism within a species seems also to be a risk where blood is transfused. We also know that eating spinal, brain, or connected/contiguous tissue seems to effect the mechanism WITHIN a species.

We also know that the incidence of CJD in humans has recently spiked in 'younger-than-average' patients - making it increasingly likely (in absence of long-established cannibalistic practise) that there is some mechanism by which infected prions MAY be transmitted acorss species barriers.

We also know that virtually identical zoomorphic forms of the disease exist - sharing common traits (like the ability of infected BSE prions to be stored in HUMAN lymph glands) - in a variety of inter-related species: scrapie, transmissible mink encephalopathy, chronic wasting disease, bovine spongiform encephalopathy, feline spongiform encephalopathy, exotic ungulate ecephalopathy, 'kuru', CJD, vCJD, and others.

It is not unreasonable to suggest that, given ALL the evidence, there is a pretty good reason to suspect BSE and CJD are very closely related... the evidence strongly suggests (for example) that BSE and vCJD are connected by a direct causative relationship.



I'm not sure why you are so harping on about this subject, how it's supposed to connect to the topic AND what I wrote... or why you seem so desperate to pretend that there is no evidence of connectivity between these related diseases.

The evidence exist.. although we lack DIRECT evidence... and it seems dangerous to try to pretend there's no possible way the things can be connected (when we really don't KNOW nearly enough to rule anything out), when there is potential risk of harm if precautions aren't taken.

So you think it is alright to kill infants, just not animals?

I define a person as a being with certain qualities. Being a person isn't limited to humans, but most persons are human. The most important quality is that you're self-conscious. Because only then you have an interest in staying alive. If I didn't realize I will once become 30 I would have no problems with you preventing that.

I don't object to killing animals as long as those animals aren't persons. I don't think non-persons have a right to life, since non-persons don't know that they're alive or that they exist separate from space and time, so they have no interest in staying alive. Most of the non-person animals do feel pain however, and show a great preference to avoid pain, so they do have an interest in not being afflicted pain, they have other interests too, like not being held in captivity in bad conditions etc. Most farms don't treat animals according to these interests, so it's most practical to become vegetarian (together with some other benefits).

The same line of reasoning can be used for human animals. We already do that with for instance brain dead people. They have no cortical activity, so they aren't conscious, they aren't persons. So we stop their life, we remove the tube feeding them, although they clearly were still alive (breathing, heartbeat, hormonal activity, etc). Do you propose we keep a braindead person alive until they die from old age?

Fetuses, and young infants, aren't persons either.
So I think in very limited cases it is ok to kill young infants in a painless way, mostly when they are severely handicapped and the parents which to do this. This is not because I enjoy it, or because I hate severely handicapped children or something like that, but because I think that it's better to end their life in a painless way than than to operate them a bazillion times to keep them alive for a few more years, mostly in great pain or wait until the baby dies from natural causes. In most other scenario's where the parents don't want the baby, the pregnancy should have been aborted as early as possible or if they chose not to do that the baby can be adopted.
Note that killing random babies would seriously reduce the parents happiness, and therefore be really bad. But if the parents really wish so and there's nobody who can adopt them (and let's be honest, this is only a really really small minority we're talking about) and I want to be consistent I can't see a problem with it.
I might have worded this a little bit more stronger in the previous thread, but that was probably because the OP annoyed me.



So your idea of morality and ethics is absolute and everyone who disagrees with you is wrong. Ok fine, where's your proof?

No, I only stated that we should have higher standards than animals since we have the ability act morally and are intelligent enough to reason about morality and ethics.

obviously something must be done about the meat producing sectors in the world, over all a switch back to organic is the only way we can go without turning all vegetarian.:mp5:

The idea that a big company increasing prodctivity per acre is going to somehow turn into a cure for world hunger.
Well let's see what we have here and what we'd need to do to solve it. Right now there isn't enough food in the world to allow everyone a full stomach on a regular basis. Would increasing productivity solve that? Seems like it. You got a better suggestion? Maybe we should kill off people until our population is at a level you're comfortable with. Or maybe we could just go around sterilizing people you don't like.

Not at all - that is one of the goals of agricultural technology. You seem to envision a very one-sided version of the field - influenced, perhaps, by the profit-driven practises of your parent's parents?
No, the cartoon doesn't even try to hide its anti-big business agedum in the first episode of this laughibly inaccurate, misinformative, and one-sided tripe. When you have seen firsthand the practices and technology of a modern farm and have evidence backing up the argument that ag tech doesn't help people survive we can continue this conversation.

I'm simply being a realist, we need food and you should be thankful that you have enough to worry about getting fat because most of the other people in the world spend their time trying to get their hands on enough to survive another day.

No - organic farming is seeing such a boom right now because we are becoming increasingly aware of things like resistant bacteria, acquired resistance in pest animals, the transmission of additives throughout the foodchain, and a general awareness that modern farming practises are very destructive.
Where are these drug-proof super-bugs that are supposed to wipe us all out? I mean there was that staph in that one hospital but staph is such a pussy infection that it can only get you when you have no immune system. I'm generally healthy if not a little overweight and I'm not too worried about food I eat because my bad experiences with regular food are less than 2. And just how are modern farming practices destructive? I thought they were more efficient, using less land, and with the invention of modern genetic manipulation, it will soon require fewer fertilizers and pesticides.

I wonder how Rotenone compares to DDT...?
DDT never killed anyone. DDT was safe enough to eat in the quantities observed in the food supply. DDT was never proven to cause Parkinson's. DDT is still only listed as a possible carcinogen. DDT is actually a treatment for barbituate poisoning. And DDT has a better track record at killing Malaria spreading mosquitoes.

Or not. Nice horror-story vision, but I suspect it exists more in your head than in viable data.
You show me yours and I'll show you mine.

Don't know wht you're talking about. Looks like a red herring to me.
Or the words of Norman Borlaug, the guy who started the Green Revolution and whose work is believed to have saved a billion people from death by starvation. I'm pretty sure that he knows what he's talking about in the areas of agriculture, genetics, and world hunger.

There is a difference between 'cooked plenty' and cooked correctly. My wife worked at a restaurant (where she was responsible for health and safety) that she ultimately quit...I raised pigs for a decade, 'organically'...
Well it isn't representative, it's anecdotal. But it happened and as a result of that experience I'm still not having organic pork again if I can avoid it. I cannot undestand why someone would be against giving animals medical treatment to keep them healthy until they are ready to die.

And you can tell so much by cow facial expressions. I'm not sure what the significance is... you are basically admitting that your family was primely concerned with profit... well, I was primely concerned with quality of life, and quality of produce. Totally different agenda. Not the same ballpark, not even the same sport.
I'm primarily concerned with the quality of human life. You seem more concerned with animals' quality of life and seem to think that turning a profit is a bad thing.

See, when people see a more efficient way of doing things they'll go for it and try to make a buck off it at the same time. The two are not mutually exclusive.

Okay. I have no idea what you think the point of this is - or how you think it relates to anything I said.
This wasn't a response to you, just to the second part of this propaganda cartoon.

Not strictly true... there is evidence that diseased prions of both BSE and CJD can accumulate in human lymph nodes. What you perhaps mean is that no DIRECT mechanism is currently demonstrable (although the 'slow-virus' idea is quite popular).
If you don't have evidence PROVING it then you can't say that it's true, just that it's a possibility.

We do know that the mechanism within a species seems transmissable through transfusion of dura mater, corneal tissue, pituitary growth hormone... possibly as a contaminant where insufficeint sterilisation takes place where contact is made between infected brain tissue, an outside material, and non-infected brain material. We know that the mechanism within a species seems also to be a risk where blood is transfused. We also know that eating spinal, brain, or connected/contiguous tissue seems to effect the mechanism WITHIN a species.
Like I said, eating brains spreads it within a species, so if a cow eats a Mad Cow brain or spine it could get Mad Cow. If a human ate the brain of a human with CJD that person could get CJD.

We also know that the incidence of CJD in humans has recently spiked in 'younger-than-average' patients - making it increasingly likely (in absence of long-established cannibalistic practise) that there is some mechanism by which infected prions MAY be transmitted acorss species barriers.
But you have no evidence of this. The fact is that CJD could be acquired from an outside source like something you eat or hGH, or it could be inherited, or it could just show up for no reason.

We also know that virtually identical zoomorphic forms of the disease exist - sharing common traits (like the ability of infected BSE prions to be stored in HUMAN lymph glands) - in a variety of inter-related species: scrapie, transmissible mink encephalopathy, chronic wasting disease, bovine spongiform encephalopathy, feline spongiform encephalopathy, exotic ungulate ecephalopathy, 'kuru', CJD, vCJD, and others.
But you haven't yet shown that BSE prions cause CJD. BSE prions can cause BSE but there is no evidence showing that BSE beef causes CJD. And in America there is a policy of euthanizing BSE cows.

It is not unreasonable to suggest that, given ALL the evidence, there is a pretty good reason to suspect BSE and CJD are very closely related... the evidence strongly suggests (for example) that BSE and vCJD are connected by a direct causative relationship.
It is unreasonable to suggest that two diseases are connected when you haven't yet proven that one disease crosses species barriers. It is even more unreasonable for media outlets to run scare stories and spread baseless fear.

I'm not sure why you are so harping on about this subject, how it's supposed to connect to the topic AND what I wrote... or why you seem so desperate to pretend that there is no evidence of connectivity between these related diseases.
It was in parte dos of the propaganda cartoon and I try to avoid believing in things that either haven't been proven or have been proven false.

The evidence exist.. although we lack DIRECT evidence... and it seems dangerous to try to pretend there's no possible way the things can be connected (when we really don't KNOW nearly enough to rule anything out), when there is potential risk of harm if precautions aren't taken.
That's my point, we really don't know nearly enough to make a ruling. I think the best thing to do is hold off on the scare stories and continue to investigate until there is an answer.

The following isn't directly related to you or your post, it's for the people who agree with this cartoon.
There are few things that bother me more than psychics, detoxers, life-coaches, etc. They're murderers, terrorists, theives, luddites, and a few other things. You fall into the luddite category because you seem to oppose modern farming practices. The worst kind of luddite tries to take away other people's choices.

In most parts of the world people don't have any other option except organic farming. And they're either dying or barely scraping by because of it. They have sun, they have soil, they have water, and they even have an organic fertilizer called night soil (it's human shit and it spreads parasites that infest sewage). They lack the hybrid crops and technology to till and enrich the soil so that they can grow enough food to be able to make money off of it and buy some halfway decent medical care for their families. Life is about assessing the risks, choosing a path, and moving forward, not backward, upward, not forward, and always twirling, twirling, twirling towards freedom.

Unless you and yours are starving you need to SHUT THE FUCK UP.