NationStates Jolt Archive

This is one that I was happy to read. This part time cop and former teacher has been going online and going after pedophiles, posing as a thirteen year old girl. Most recently, he nabbed some sicko that was mayor of a small town and the head of one of its churches. I'm giving this guy a pat on the back.

Linky. (http://www6.comcast.net/news/articles/national/2008/01/25/Detective.Sex.Stings/)


Thoughts?

Good man. I'm glad there are people like this out there who stop those who would harm young people.

Baiting paedophiles... by posing as a 13 year old girl. Good for him. Sounds like it's hard to deal with people who think it's fine to do this kind of shit.

I was so happy reading this - just imagine that guy's amazement when the police turn up on his doorstep and arrest him for paedophilia... he sure got what was coming to him, and I like it! More like this! :D

How's the saying go? "The internet, where the men are men, the women are men, and the children are FBI agents."

Aren't these tactics still considered a legal grey area? I remember there being a lot made of folks getting off (ohhh, bad pun) any charges made because they were caught through these types of tactics.

In civilized countries like Spain, 13 is the age of consent, which is what it should be here.

How's the saying go? "The internet, where the men are men, the women are men, and the children are FBI agents."

Aren't these tactics still considered a legal grey area? I remember there being a lot made of folks getting off (ohhh, bad pun) any charges made because they were caught through these types of tactics.

depends how it's done. If the officer initiates contact, or moves the conversation forward (IE, moves it from platonic conversation to sexual, from sexual to cyber sex, or from anything to meeting), it is considered entrapment (depending on what is illegal in different areas...some places don't consider sexual conversation or cyber sex with a minor to be illegal).

If the suspect initiates the conversation, pushes it forward, and/or asks to meet, it is legal on the cops part.

This is one that I was happy to read. This part time cop and former teacher has been going online and going after pedophiles, posing as a thirteen year old girl. Most recently, he nabbed some sicko that was mayor of a small town and the head of one of its churches. I'm giving this guy a pat on the back.

Linky. (http://www6.comcast.net/news/articles/national/2008/01/25/Detective.Sex.Stings/)


Thoughts?

Ah, yes, more entrapment and vigilante justice...:rolleyes:

This, like Chris Hanson's show, is disgusting. All it does is prompt people to take advantage of opportunities that wouldn't have existed. It entraps them. It should be illegal, and probably would be if it weren't for the paedophilia aspect.

Bonking kiddies= bad.
Vigilantism= bad.

Is he doing this in his free time? Cos if he is nobody will get convicted of anything he claims they did. Is he doing it as part of his job as a cop? If so one hopes that this would be treated like any other sting operation and every step possible would be taken to ensure the officers don't resort to entrapment and that they get that whole chain of evidence thing right.


*actually reads article*

Retired cop? Yeah, he needs to gb2retirement home. Leave the whole being a cop thing to people who are still cops. Further, how the hell can he get people convicted? How is what he doing any different from some random citizen trying to trick paedos into meeting them?

*reads further*
Disregard that, I should read the whole article next time.

I believe that these people pose as underage children, find pedophiles, then turn the chatlogs over to the cops. They are doing nothing illegal - they let the pedos make the moves. There are entire organizations that do this sort of thing.

I support these people in their endeavors.

In civilized countries like Spain, 13 is the age of consent, which is what it should be here.

What? That's classed as underage sex in UK. That and i don't think people are emotionally capable of dealing with sex at that age.
Either that or you're joking.*Looks up Wiki*oh my god you're right.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ages_of_consent_in_Europe
Why the hell is the age of consent different in different countries?
Surely a better law would be to universalise all laws accross the globe, then everyone knows what the rules are, but that is just plain stupid.

All it does is prompt people to take advantage of opportunities that wouldn't have existed.

Are you sure about that?

Bonking kiddies= bad.
Vigilantism= bad.

Yeah, I'll just go with this.

I believe that these people pose as underage children, find pedophiles, then turn the chatlogs over to the cops. They are doing nothing illegal - they let the pedos make the moves. There are entire organizations that do this sort of thing.

I support these people in their endeavors.

As long as those organisations are the police then I have no objections. Catching criminals is what the police do. If they are not then they're high-tech(sort of) vigilantes.

In civilized countries like Spain, 13 is the age of consent, which is what it should be here.


I know if anyone had the balls to do anything with *my* thirteen year old, I'd send his happy ass to jail. Oh wait, I did. Thirteen is far too young to be thinking of anything but finishing school.

"Age of consent" used to mean getting married, not having sex. Pedophiles take full advantage of confused children and adolescents, not with the purpose of marrying them, but for the sole purpose of using them to slake their selfish lust and ruin these children forever. Age of consent my big toe...

I've read stuff like this before (the article, not what I quoted about), and it makes me glad to know that people are out there working to put pedophiles behind bars - where I think they belong.

In civilized countries like Spain, 13 is the age of consent, which is what it should be here.

Uuuuh....


Id hardly say that making 13 the age of consent is civilized, and Im extremelly liberal when it comes to consensual sex.


ps- age of consent varies from state to state in the US

How into 13 year old girls can you be if you can't tell the difference between an actual 13 year old girl and a 60 some odd year old dude...Either that or these vigilantes need to start writing teenage characters on TV shows because there it's usually pretty obvious...

Ever since I read an article looking more in depth about the behavior of groups doing just this, I've been extremely leery of them and disapproving in general. Granted, this fellow is actually a retired police officer, so he *might* - and I say *might* - be following reasonable procedure, but for the most part, it looks and smells like entrapment.

Most of those caught this way are not actually pedophiles, either; pedophilia refers to attraction to prepubescent children, those who are readily and apparently immature. It is entirely different to be interested in physically [but not necessarily psychologically] mature teenagers. Teenage girls - as inevitably these people are posing as - are, in physical appearance, very similar to the those slightly older girls legally allowed to have sex in most of the US. (In many states, 16; in many, 18; in a few, 14).

Many are not chronic, repeat, et cetera offenders. While pedophiles may have a high rate of recidivism, the general category of "sex offender" has a fairly low recidivism rate. The guys who are willing to bang a hot willing underage teenager usually do not try anything of that sort again after a first arrest - contrary to the impression that "To Catch a Predator" might leave you with.

Like all the sensationalist pieces on serial killers, it helps focus attention away from what are, statistically, the real dangers. Or, in this case, even the real crime. Teenagers having inappropriate consensual sex with strangers has nothing to do with young children being molested by family members and acquaintances.

I don't understand why it is vigilantism to find crooks then inform the cops, assuming all the policies are being followed. I've read some of the chatlogs - I didn't see any entrapment.

This (http://www.perverted-justice.com) is the site I have mentioned. I'm just looking at their info - ah, here we are:
The carefully selected, screened and trained Perverted-Justice.com staff take this escapade one logical step further, in an attempt to find out more about the problem.

This is the kind of thing I condone.

I don't understand why it is vigilantism to find crooks then inform the cops, assuming all the policies are being followed. I've read some of the chatlogs - I didn't see any entrapment.

This (http://www.perverted-justice.com) is the site I have mentioned. I'm just looking at their info - ah, here we are:


This is the kind of thing I condone.

You read some chatlogs. How do you know that they weren't faked? What measures are there in place to prevent people like perverted justice from doing that kind of thing? What part of the government are perverted justice accountable to? Even if they know police procedure, who is there to make them follow it?

I don't understand why it is vigilantism to find crooks then inform the cops, assuming all the policies are being followed. I've read some of the chatlogs - I didn't see any entrapment.

This (http://www.perverted-justice.com) is the site I have mentioned. I'm just looking at their info - ah, here we are:


This is the kind of thing I condone.

because the problem is when a NON-trained, non screened person tries it.

that's Vigilantism.

At first I thought that's what he's doing... but according to the article, he got some training and his experience with legal procedures and since technically, he's on Reserve status...

good for him.

Also, I think that an organization that, according to their front page, is actually training cops to catch pedophiles, is probably credible.

In civilized countries like Spain, 13 is the age of consent, which is what it should be here.

I think thats a little too young. By about 2 or 3 years.

Also, I think that an organization that, according to their front page, is actually training cops to catch pedophiles, is probably credible.

Probably credible will get turned into reasonable doubt and then someone walks free.

Probably credible will get turned into reasonable doubt and then someone walks free.

In theory, yes. In practice:

Number of predators convicted due to
Perverted-Justice.com since June 2004:

264

Mirkana, if they're pulling in up to 30 per weekend, as the article I read suggests, 264 actual convictions is low.
I don't understand why it is vigilantism to find crooks then inform the cops, assuming all the policies are being followed. I've read some of the chatlogs - I didn't see any entrapment.

This (http://www.perverted-justice.com) is the site I have mentioned. I'm just looking at their info - ah, here we are:


This is the kind of thing I condone.
(Sorry to switch nations on you in my login cycle. This is indeed still TJ.)

I read about PJ in Rolling Stone. (http://www.rollingstone.com/news/story/15723886/to_catch_a_predator_is_nbcs_primetime_dragnet_the_new_american_witch_hunt) I don't subscribe to it, and never bought a copy, and usually don't even think about them as a source, but it was lying on the table and I was bored. The descriptions there (and elsewhere on third party sites) sound an awful lot like entrapment, and I found the article's description of PJ quite compelling - and, from all that I have seen since, accurate.

The statistics - which I can find easily online - support what Rolling Stone's authors/editors said in that article. The BoJ (http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/reentry/recidivism.htm) gives overall rates of American recidivism at 50+% in three years after release.

The state of Washington did a more specific (and longer term) study watching sex offenders for seven years. Even then, overall recidivism rates were low by American justice system standards (11-31% depending on offense category and treatment); as a general category, including both the relatively harmless college kid who has sex with a 16 year old and the pathological child molester, sex offenders have something like a 15% long term rate of repeat offense.

When passion drives people to spend thousands of dollars and thousands of hours trying to hunt down some particular type of criminal, attention gets focused in all the wrong places for all the wrong reasons. It's sensationalist and it plays heavily on the protective feelings most people have towards children - and it looks like a witch hunt just the same.

I am personally willing to bet that if we could actually run a controlled study with a parallel universe, more than half of the people trapped by vigilantes posing as teenage girls would not have wound up committing any sex act with anyone underage.
Casey gabs to potential predators on the phone. "Come on over, we're not going to get caught," she says. "If we got caught, I would get into trouble, and everybody would call me a slut, and I don't want that, either. I'll pay for your gas. It's no big deal, trust me. My dad gave me plenty of money for the weekend." When the guy fails to take the bait, her voice rises in pitch. "OK, fine, whatever, lame. L-A-M-E. You're being a baby. I told you I've done it a million times!"
I used to think it seemed swell, but I wasn't paying any attention to methods and statistics. I, too, swallowed whole the myth that these sorts of people are hunting down pedophiles with high recidivism rates.

And then I woke up, and stopped my knee-jerk emotional responses, and took a long, hard, critical look, and the waves washed away. Sure, I still don't think I should be having sex with anyone under 18, even if the age of consent in my home state is actually 16, but I don't think that the vigilantes of Perverted Justice are doing more good than harm.

do you think he lieks mudkipz?

I think thats a little too young. By about 2 or 3 years.

pfft its Spain

In theory, yes. In practice:

From TJ's Rolling Stones article:
In the past few days, PJ members posing as young girls and boys have chatted with nearly 300 men.
100s of potential predators in the space of two days leads to less than 300 convictions in the space of 3 and a half years.

The man is acting in no official capacity, it's keyboard vigiliantism.

I worried about the "vigilante" profile pictures myself, do you think he reels them in with anything?

because the problem is when a NON-trained, non screened person tries it.

that's Vigilantism.

At first I thought that's what he's doing... but according to the article, he got some training and his experience with legal procedures and since technically, he's on Reserve status...

good for him.

The man is acting in no official capacity, it's keyboard vigiliantism.

The man is acting in no official capacity, it's keyboard vigiliantism.

He's a reserve detective. he still has his rank and it sounds like, his badge. he may be 'donating' his time, but apparently he is still a cop.

unlike most people of PJ.

Good on him. Innovative, effective policing.

do you think he lieks mudkipz?
wel i herd sum tings....
Good on him. Innovative, effective policing.

I think it was innovative when they first started using sting operations. Quite some time ago, I dare say.

wel i herd sum tings....

Urgh. (http://www.alternative-cancer.net/images/cancer%20cell,%20breast.jpg)


Anyway, it'd be a lot more reassuring if it was an actual police operation.

Urgh. (http://www.alternative-cancer.net/images/cancer%20cell,%20breast.jpg)
You wound me sah! Well, no, you're probably right.


Anyway, it'd be a lot more reassuring if it was an actual police operation.

It appears that it is.

Why the hell is the age of consent different in different countries?because we have not yet been able to impose our puritan sex Laws on the Europeans. ;)

US = Holier than thou

Good another pedo off the internet. To those who say well this is entrapment guess what? What were those people talking to young girls in the first place? Not many people actually enjoy talking to teen kids. When you try talking to them their cell phone goes off or something. They dont have interesting conversations especially girl conversations. Its usaully about shopping, the mall, a certain guy etc. So what is the point of someone talking to a teenage girl? Well probably to try and :fluffle:

Ever since I read an article looking more in depth about the behavior of groups doing just this, I've been extremely leery of them and disapproving in general. Granted, this fellow is actually a retired police officer, so he *might* - and I say *might* - be following reasonable procedure, but for the most part, it looks and smells like entrapment.

Most of those caught this way are not actually pedophiles, either; pedophilia refers to attraction to prepubescent children, those who are readily and apparently immature. It is entirely different to be interested in physically [but not necessarily psychologically] mature teenagers. Teenage girls - as inevitably these people are posing as - are, in physical appearance, very similar to the those slightly older girls legally allowed to have sex in most of the US. (In many states, 16; in many, 18; in a few, 14).

Many are not chronic, repeat, et cetera offenders. While pedophiles may have a high rate of recidivism, the general category of "sex offender" has a fairly low recidivism rate. The guys who are willing to bang a hot willing underage teenager usually do not try anything of that sort again after a first arrest - contrary to the impression that "To Catch a Predator" might leave you with.

Like all the sensationalist pieces on serial killers, it helps focus attention away from what are, statistically, the real dangers. Or, in this case, even the real crime. Teenagers having inappropriate consensual sex with strangers has nothing to do with young children being molested by family members and acquaintances.

Quoted for truth. There are significant differences between individuals who may have sex with an underaged but apparently consenting and physically mature teenager and those who will have sex with children. I am not saying it is right, there are age of consent laws for a reason (I personally think that the 15-16 common accross most European countries probably has it about right) and just because in some cases a 14 year old may have physical maturity, they certainly don't have mental maturity to deal with it.

However, similar to TJ I do worry that tactics such as this are in the long-term detrimental, both focusing media attention on a group who are, from all the statistics, minimal risk, certainly in terms of reoffending and drawing attention away from more serious issues of child protection (approx. 90% of child abuse, sexual or otherwise, is conducted by someone well known to the kid). On a more practical level I worry that high publicisation of these tactics used by non-police groups may only serve to inform the more serious offenders of the methods used and drive them further underground where more organized police operations may not catch them. Especially if, because of less-than-thorough methodology will result in cases getting thrown out in court due to technicalities.

http://img100.imageshack.us/img100/7258/panties3ja.th.jpg
^ no thats not me in the picture

Id hardly say that making 13 the age of consent is civilized, and Im extremelly liberal when it comes to consensual sex.

Perhaps you're not as liberal as you think you are? You're less liberal than the whole country of Spain, which raised the age of consent all the way from 12 to 13 in 1996, over the fierce objection of the country's mainstream Socialist Party!

ps- age of consent varies from state to state in the US

Yes, but nowhere in the U.S. is it under 16.

Yes, but nowhere in the U.S. is it under 16.
For unmarried individuals it is nowhere under 14. Missouri is 14, Virginia is 15...

... in many states, they will hit an older person with "contributing to the delinquency of a minor" in cases that are technically legal; also, in many states, a ~5 year difference (e.g., a 18 y/o having sex with a 13 y/o) is OK.

Marriage is generally excepted, and it is legal to marry at 14 in many states, and (last I checked) a ridiculously low 12 in Utah. It gets complicated.