NationStates Jolt Archive

What if the Gaza Strip became an autonomous region of Egypt?

pro:
The palestinians of Gaza wouldn't be "cut off".
Egyptian police would be able to stop the attacks against Israel.
Israel wouldn't attack or raid a part of Egypt (at least I hope so).

contra:
Palestine would lose a significant part of its (eventual) national territory, and its (eventual) access to sea.

I don't know, really. It just came across my mind. What do you think?

Kind of like it was before? I thought Gaza briefly had been part of Egypt before the war in 1967? At least from 1949-1967, except briefly during 1956 during the Suez Crisis?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_strip

Kind of like it was before? I thought Gaza briefly had been part of Egypt before the war in 1967? At least from 1949-1967, except briefly during 1956 during the Suez Crisis?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_strip

Yes, that, more or less. My (very unlikely) idea would be implementing a local autonomy for the Gaza Strip inside the republic of Egypt.

Egyptian police would be able to stop the attacks against Israel.I doubt they would; and they wouldn't want to be responsible for failing.

It doesnt matter how good the "Pros" look...that "contra" is enough to make it fail.
Most sensible people believe that one day there will be a country called Palastine(or similar)...you dont go palming of you goods before the deal is done.

What if the Gaza Strip became an autonomous region of Egypt?

pro:
The palestinians of Gaza wouldn't be "cut off".
Egyptian police would be able to stop the attacks against Israel.
Israel wouldn't attack or raid a part of Egypt (at least I hope so).

contra:
Palestine would lose a significant part of its (eventual) national territory, and its (eventual) access to sea.

I don't know, really. It just came across my mind. What do you think?

Why couldn't it become an autonomous region of it's own? And instead of giving all of it's problems to Egypt and hope they can solve it use the international community to solve them?

What if the Gaza Strip became an autonomous region of Egypt?this complicated conflict needs issue-by-issue simple answers. You cant solve everything at once.

the first step is a Palestinian state.
nothing less nothing more

Why couldn't it become an autonomous region of it's own? And instead of giving all of it's problems to Egypt and hope they can solve it use the international community to solve them?

You mean autonomous from the other palestinian territory?

I thought of Gaza as autonomous region inside Egypt because the Israeli government isn't going to accept the so-called "Hamastan". Since their relationship with Egypt is on the smooth side (at least in the last 15 years), maybe they would be fine with Egypt granting that its police and frontier guards would stop the most extremist fringes of the Gaza palestinians.

International community is already working at it. This idea is about stabilising the borders and securing the area without having westerners doing the job, that is, we don't want another West vs Islam match, do we?

the first step is a Palestinian state.
nothing less nothing more

A Palestinian state right now? With Hamas ruling Gaza and al-Fatah keeping the rest? They're divided now, too divided to build a State. Maybe having Gaza under Egypt for a while would stabilise the situation, and then it would be possible to build a Palestinian state - which, of course, the Palestinian deserve and has to be granted to them.

It doesnt matter how good the "Pros" look...that "contra" is enough to make it fail.
Most sensible people believe that one day there will be a country called Palastine(or similar)...you dont go palming of you goods before the deal is done.

May I ask why you would believe that, merely because you are sensible?

What if the Gaza Strip became an autonomous region of Egypt?

Well...they used to be part of Egypt till the Second Arab-Israeli War.

pro:
The palestinians of Gaza wouldn't be "cut off".
Egyptian police would be able to stop the attacks against Israel.
Israel wouldn't attack or raid a part of Egypt (at least I hope so).

contra:
Palestine would lose a significant part of its (eventual) national territory, and its (eventual) access to sea.

I don't know, really. It just came across my mind. What do you think?

Won't work. Egypt had troubles with the Gaza Strip even when they owned it.

They were never a "part" of Egypt because Egypt refused to grant them citizenship. They were "independent" under the "Government of All Palestine" from 1948 to 1951: I put "independent" in quotes because only Egypt recognized this regime; and "All" Palestine was claim to the West Bank which Jordan annexed (granting Jordanian citizenship); this quasi-state was suppressed after launching the assassination of the king of Jordan. From 1951 to 1967, it was an occupied territory, occupied by Egypt. After Camp David, Israel tried to give it back to Egypt along with the Sinai, but Egypt wouldn't take it. I still don't think the Egyptians want to grant the Gazans citizenship, even though that would make a lot more sense than a little mini-state.

Just locate the next Monster Truck rally to Palestine and have some hillbillies drive over everything in the whole Godforsaken area.


"Habib, meet Jimmy Bobby Bubs."

What if the Gaza Strip became an autonomous region of Egypt?

pro:
The palestinians of Gaza wouldn't be "cut off".
Egyptian police would be able to stop the attacks against Israel.
Israel wouldn't attack or raid a part of Egypt (at least I hope so).

contra:
Palestine would lose a significant part of its (eventual) national territory, and its (eventual) access to sea.

I don't know, really. It just came across my mind. What do you think?

I can't see the Palestinians in the West Bank being too happy about losing their only internal source of gas (the field off the Gazan coast) and I can't see the Gazans being happy about being ruled by Egypt, even if only de jure, again.

EDIT: if the majority of Gazans supported the idea they should be able to though.

What if the Gaza Strip became an autonomous region of Egypt?

pro:
The palestinians of Gaza wouldn't be "cut off".
Egyptian police would be able to stop the attacks against Israel.
Israel wouldn't attack or raid a part of Egypt (at least I hope so).

contra:
Palestine would lose a significant part of its (eventual) national territory, and its (eventual) access to sea.

I don't know, really. It just came across my mind. What do you think?

contra: no self representation for the people living in Gaza, they would become part of the Mubarak dynasty...

A Palestinian state right now? yes now.



BTW if you dont really want to give them their country, you can always find excuses, you can always find half-measures.. again and again ...

But I stand by my statement:
The first thing to do is allow them to have their Country.

No. They can't be allowed to purchase arms the same as any other independent country, not until they show some capacity for self-control.

No. They can't be allowed to purchase arms the same as any other independent country, not until they show some capacity for self-control.

where did purchasing arms come from?

If they are granted "independence", that would mean they have every right that any other independent state does. They can be granted "autonomy" in most respects, but their importing is going to have to be under strict supervision until they grasp the basic concept that states don't lob rockets across their borders.

You mean autonomous from the other palestinian territory?

I thought of Gaza as autonomous region inside Egypt because the Israeli government isn't going to accept the so-called "Hamastan". Since their relationship with Egypt is on the smooth side (at least in the last 15 years), maybe they would be fine with Egypt granting that its police and frontier guards would stop the most extremist fringes of the Gaza palestinians.

International community is already working at it. This idea is about stabilising the borders and securing the area without having westerners doing the job, that is, we don't want another West vs Islam match, do we?

No, we don't, but I don't think that giving all the responsibility to one nation, Egypt, will do much good, if something like that happens it needs to be done with the help of a large part of the international community. This doesn't mean that we all need to send some soldiers. And it would help a lot if Israel stopped building walls and killing Palestinians, it must be pretty obvious after about 60 years (?) that violence only brings more violence.

If they are granted "independence", that would mean they have every right that any other independent state does. They can be granted "autonomy" in most respects, but their importing is going to have to be under strict supervision until they grasp the basic concept that states don't lob rockets across their borders.

Most of the people in Gaza don't lob rockets across their border, unfortunately there is a minority who does, this doesn't mean that all of gaza needs to be punished. I also don't think that this will actually help against the attacks, the only effect is that the Palestinians hate the Israeli's even more because they locked their border and made life suck.

If they are granted "independence", that would mean they have every right that any other independent state does. They can be granted "autonomy" in most respects, but their importing is going to have to be under strict supervision until they grasp the basic concept that states don't lob rockets across their borders.

I'd imagine that concept would take hold about the same time that Israel learns that states don't lob colonies across their borders.

If they are granted "independence", that would mean they have every right that any other independent state does. They can be granted "autonomy" in most respects, but their importing is going to have to be under strict supervision until they grasp the basic concept that states don't lob rockets across their borders.
Didn't stop Israeli independence.

What if the Gaza Strip became an autonomous region of Egypt?

pro:
The palestinians of Gaza wouldn't be "cut off".
Egyptian police would be able to stop the attacks against Israel.
Israel wouldn't attack or raid a part of Egypt (at least I hope so).

contra:
Palestine would lose a significant part of its (eventual) national territory, and its (eventual) access to sea.

I don't know, really. It just came across my mind. What do you think?

This assumes that Egypt, or any other nearby nation, actually gives a flying fuck about the Palestinian people.

Historical evidence does not bear this out...at least not for the last 30+ years.

This assumes that Egypt, or any other nearby nation, actually gives a flying fuck about the Palestinian people.

Historical evidence does not bear this out...at least not for the last 30+ years.

You are indeed right. Egypt is currently working on moving them back into Gaza.

yes now.

BTW if you dont really want to give them their country, you can always find excuses, you can always find half-measures.. again and again ...

But I stand by my statement:
The first thing to do is allow them to have their Country.

I fear that it cannot work before Hamas and al-Fatah stop their squabbling. The leadership of both parties is doing its best to show how little they mind about the well-being of the palestinian people and the building of the palestinian State - and the israeli ultra-right-wingers get all the advantages from this situation.

The West Bank and the Gaza Strip will probably end up being their own state eventually when the wackos are forced out of the other states, the moderates decide Israel isn't going anywhere, and everyone decides it's about high time for the Palestinians to have their own state. So there it is - Palestine is formed out of the West Bank and the Gaza Strip, and the concessions made to Israel are that the other states leave them the hell alone and recognize that they have a right to exist. Wouldn't work in today's political climate. However, after some sane people start kicking the shit out of the fundies (I predict a Saudi Revolution akin to the French Revolution, one that breaks the stranglehold the madrasas have on the country) then this sort of thing can take place.

Eventually, the two may split into two countries the way Pakistan did. One may turn into a functioning democracy and the other a whacked-out hellhole (kind of like Pakistan and Bangladesh or North Korea and South Korea) or they may both be one or the other; I don't know. I just don't have a name for the other country yet. One becomes Palesting (probably the West Bank) and the other becomes Lower Berzerkistan after weaseling out of paying royalties to the writer of Doonesbury.

The name "Palestine" (from the "Philistine" country) properly belongs to the Gaza Strip. The old generic name for the West Bank was Cisjordan, as opposed to Transjordan on the East Bank.

The name "Palestine" (from the "Philistine" country) properly belongs to the Gaza Strip. The old generic name for the West Bank was Cisjordan, as opposed to Transjordan on the East Bank.
The name 'Palestine' started being used for the whole area (including what's now Israel) back when it was under Roman rule...

Personally, I think that, as the international community started the problem, by going against all advice, they should end it, in stead of giving the responsibility to other nations.

It doesnt matter how good the "Pros" look...that "contra" is enough to make it fail.
Most sensible people believe that one day there will be a country called Palastine(or similar)...you dont go palming of you goods before the deal is done.

"Most sensible people"...instead of actually taking the time to provide evidence, you deem it sufficient to resort to crude rhetoric.

I'm pretty sure that Egypt does not want the Gaza Strip, and the Gaza Strip does not want to be part of Egypt. That's a pretty big flaw in your plan.

The fact that there was a wall on the Egyptian side as well implies that they'd rather not.

Egypt does not want the Gaza Strip, and the Gaza Strip does not want to be part of Egypt.

Exactly.

The fact that there was a wall on the Egyptian side as well implies that they'd rather not.

That's right.

I'm pretty sure that ... Gaza Strip does not want to be part of Egypt. That's a pretty big flaw in your plan.

Why do you think the so called "Palestinians" have a say in this issue?

Did someone ask the Sinai bedouins before their land was returned to Egypt in 1981-82?

Gaza was a part of Egypt before 67, therefore it should be returned to the Egyptians.

There is no such thing as a "Palestinian" people. There will never be a "Palestinian" state. It's all "Kalam Fadi" (nonsense in Arabic)

Did someone ask the Sinai bedouins before their land was returned to Egypt in 1981-82?

Um...the Sinai was returned to Egypt in 1979

Gaza was a part of Egypt before 67, therefore it should be returned to the Egyptians.

Um it may have belonged to them before 1967 but then, they took the Gaza Strip in 1948. Before then, it belonged to the Ottoman Empire till after World War I when the British took it over.

There is no such thing as a "Palestinian" people. There will never be a "Palestinian" state. It's all "Kalam Fadi" (nonsense in Arabic)

There will never be a Palestinian State? Why not?

Not True. The agreement was signed in 1979, but it took about three years to have it done.

It was completed in 1982 but the control was handed over in several stages so yea...1979 is an accurate date.

Then let it be returned to Turkey or Britain.

Why? It was not orginally theirs either. So why should it return to a nation that conquered them?

Because it is an unjust solution.

Why?

shouldnt it be up to EGYPT?

i dont think egypt would take them, they dont like troublemakers.

There is no such thing as a "Palestinian" people. There will never be a "Palestinian" state. It's all "Kalam Fadi" (nonsense in Arabic)

Strange that they've been talking about themselves as a seperate people since the early 1900's then, and sent a group to the League of nations asking for statehood in the 1920's.....

Strange that they've been talking about themselves as a seperate people since the early 1900's then, and sent a group to the League of nations asking for statehood in the 1920's.....

Far be it from me to agree with Nodinia but yea...

You're not agreeing with me, me oul flower, you're just acknowledging the facts.

You're not agreeing with me, me oul flower, you're just acknowledging the facts.

Maybe but I am agreeing with what you wrote since ya did write it.

shouldnt it be up to EGYPT?

i dont think egypt would take them, they dont like troublemakers.

Exactly. Rightly or wrongly, the Egyptian government has been trying to suppress Islamists in the form of the Muslim Brotherhood for years; they're hardly likely to welcome Hamas with open arms...

I'm pretty sure that Egypt does not want the Gaza Strip, and the Gaza Strip does not want to be part of Egypt. That's a pretty big flaw in your plan.

shouldnt it be up to EGYPT?

i dont think egypt would take them, they dont like troublemakers.

Exactly. Rightly or wrongly, the Egyptian government has been trying to suppress Islamists in the form of the Muslim Brotherhood for years; they're hardly likely to welcome Hamas with open arms...

All of these are correct. Egypt DOESN'T WANT a million new citizens with a few hundred thousand extremists among them. Jordan was also offered to annex the West Bank. Muslim nations are all good friends with Palestine when they are fighting Israel, saying that they are their brothers and so on. But truth be told, noone wants them.

Also, let's be honest for a moment? Why doesn't say the US annex Mexico? Well because it would bring down the economy. Same thing with Palestine and Egypt. Palestine's economy has been diminishing significantly since the beginning of the second intifada, and there is severe poverty in Gaza. They rely very heavily on foreign aid.

Egypt wants to stay in peace with Israel as it has already learned form numerous wars that that's their best option. (Unfortunately Hizballah, Syria, and the Palestinians have not yet been smart enough to realize this). Recieving an influx of so many anti-Israel people would not be beneficial for its internal stability and semi-democratic system.

Nodinia, I may be mistaken, but I thought that in the 20's only the Jews used the name "Palestinian", while the Arabs were asking to be annexed to Syria.

I thought that in the 20's only the Jews used the name "Palestinian", while the Arabs were asking to be annexed to Syria.

The Arabs of today's north-Israel indeed wanted to be a part of Syria, and I think the others saw themselves as Jordanian, but I'm not sure about that.

The name "Palestine" can be spelled in two forms in Hebrew. The Jews used a form transcripted from English/Latin and called it "Falestina". Today, when Israelis refer to "Palestinians" they use a form transcripted from Arabic.

Nodinia, I may be mistaken, but I thought that in the 20's only the Jews used the name "Palestinian", while the Arabs were asking to be annexed to Syria.

You'd be partly mistaken (but more likely mislead), there was in fact a pro-syrian/Pan-Arabist faction at one stage. However the more long lasting faction was the one which called for an independent Palestine. Its a bit of spin on the part of the pro-Israeli side to mention one while forgetting to include the other.....

At the beginning of the 20th century, a "local and specific Palestinian patriotism" emerged. The Palestinian identity grew progressively. In 1911, a newspaper named Filastin was published in Jaffa and the first Palestinian nationalist organisations appeared at the end of the World War I[24] Two political factions emerged. Al-Muntada al-Adabi, dominated by the Nashashibi family, militated for the promotion of the Arab language and culture, for the defense of Islamic values and for an independent Syria and Palestine. In Damascus, al-Nadi al-Arabi , dominated by the Husayni family, defended the same values.[25]

Palestinian Arab nationalism as a distinctive movement appeared between April and July 1920[26], after the Nebi Musa riots, the San Remo conference and the failure of Faisal to establish the Kingdom of Greater Syria.[27][28] At that time, the formerly pan-Syrianist mayor of Jerusalem, Musa Qasim Pasha al-Husayni, said "Now, after the recent events in Damascus, we have to effect a complete change in our plans here. Southern Syria no longer exists. We must defend Palestine".[citation needed]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian

Thanks for the info (sincerely; no argument intended)


Not a problem Good Sir (or Madam).

Thanks for the info (sincerely; no argument intended)