NationStates Jolt Archive

Mmm copy/paste spam.

The day Gaza's Berlin Wall came down
7:11am GMT 24/01/2008
Cigarette cartons, overladen suitcases and oily jerry cans bobbed at shoulder height on a sea of euphoric Palestinians as Gaza enjoyed the day when its Berlin Wall came down.
# Telegraph Talk: Tim Butcher describes the Egypt wall breach

For years local Palestinians have stared forlornly at the six-metre high skirt of grey concrete and corrugated steel erected by occupying Israeli forces to separate Egypt from the Gaza Strip.

But the wall was blown away in at least eight different places and through the breaches swept a tide of Palestinians, ecstatic at the sense of release from Israel's swingeing blockade.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2008/01/23/wgaza323.xml
down with the Berlin Wall. :mp5::mp5::sniper::sniper::mp5:
my 2 cents: food and medicine should not be a weapon.

video link:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/portal/ttv/news.jhtml?bcpid=1137942530&bclid=1155254697&bctid=1387545772

I don't think you can really compare it with the berlin wall, mainly because the BW was to keep their own people in, and the Gaza wall is a way to force the people of gaza to stop the rocket attacks. I think it won't help a lot though, in fact I think these kind of walls only make the problem worse, but I can kind of understand why they built it, even though I'm against it.
Good that the people in gaza had the opportunity to get some more resources though.

It's not the same as the Berlin wall, apart from it being set in a different culture.
But i agree that the wall should not have been made to begin with, expensive and threatening to people inside and outside the wall.

Poor Egypt having to deal with something that they helped cause. Egypt is not to happy with this but I guess no one really cares what Egypt thinks.

..wall is a way to force the people of gaza to stop the rocket attacks. wha...?

rockets cant be lobbed over a 3 meter wall ???

CNN is showing some video rite now.

the Berlin Wall going down gives more freedom to the Palestinian people.

CNN is showing some video rite now.

the Berlin Wall going down gives more freedom to the Palestinian people.

And what about the Egyptians who probably do not want them there?

edit: But a few miles south of the border the Egyptian authorities had set up a more organised line of defence and were turning back Palestinians trying to reach Cairo.

I guess that's one way to do it.

Historically speaking, walls are not very effective. The Berlin wall and the great wall of china, along with the Siegfried and Maginot lines were ultimately failures. Governments in the world today do not seem to get this message.

So you are saying Chris Jericho was there?

/got nothing

good I say but now I want to smash down a symbol of oppression :(

I guess its time to smash whats left of Hadrian's wall!

Historically speaking, walls are not very effective. The Berlin wall and the great wall of china, along with the Siegfried and Maginot lines were ultimately failures. Governments in the world today do not seem to get this message.

What about the Great Wall of South Park (http://youtube.com/watch?v=IrPG3nb9T64)?

good I say but now I want to smash down a symbol of oppression :(

I guess its time to smash whats left of Hadrian's wall!

This is a good thing according to whom? Maybe good for the Palestinians but what about the Egyptians?

So, wait. Your against countries erecting walls to defend thier own borders and territories from unauthorized access?

I don't think you can really compare it with the berlin wall, mainly because the BW was to keep their own people in, and the Gaza wall is a way to force the people of gaza to stop the rocket attacks. I think it won't help a lot though, in fact I think these kind of walls only make the problem worse, but I can kind of understand why they built it, even though I'm against it.
Good that the people in gaza had the opportunity to get some more resources though.

And this wall is supposed to keep people where exactly... no harbours, no airfields and walled in on all sides... Looks like a giant prison to me

So, wait. Your against countries erecting walls to defend thier own borders and territories from unauthorized access?

I am. Burning lakes of tar are much more effective. *nod*

This is a good thing according to whom? Maybe good for the Palestinians but what about the Egyptians?

yeah there making a killing :p

So, wait. Your against countries erecting walls to defend thier own borders and territories from unauthorized access?

yes what century are you from exactly?

I am. Burning lakes of tar are much more effective. *nod*

shark infested burning lakes of tar have never really worked for me though :(

yeah there making a killing :p

Considering they are turning people back into Gaza...

shark infested burning lakes of tar have never really worked for me though :(

I was reading up on sharks and apparently, they don't thrive in burning lakes of tar. Apparently, they require a relatively narrow range of environmental conditions to survive. Burning lakes of tar falls a bit out of that range. *nod*

Have you tried giant squids?

yes what century are you from exactly?


Really now? When you fly from the US to the UK do you expect to land in London, hop off the plane, walk over the lawn to a taxi and zoom off or do you expect to encounter walls? Walls that are in fact manned by arm guards. We call it the immigration process. If walls are acceptable at the airport why are they unacceptable across a border gate? Or do you object to border gates as well?

Really now? When you fly from the US to the UK do you expect to land in London, hop off the plane, walk over the lawn to a taxi and zoom off or do you expect to encounter walls? Walls that are in fact manned by arm guards. We call it the immigration process. If walls are acceptable at the airport why are they unacceptable across a border gate? Or do you object to border gates as well?Airports technically border on non-EU nations, so they are not comparable to real borders.

Airports technically border on non-EU nations, so they are not comparable to real borders.

And that's why I go through customs when I fly into Panama or why my dad had to go through customs everytime he flies commercial into Germany. No matter how you look at it, it is still a border.

Really now? When you fly from the US to the UK do you expect to land in London, hop off the plane, walk over the lawn to a taxi and zoom off or do you expect to encounter walls? Walls that are in fact manned by arm guards. We call it the immigration process. If walls are acceptable at the airport why are they unacceptable across a border gate? Or do you object to border gates as well?

Maybe I'm the nut, but for a country to build a wall for border securiy, I think a prerequisite for them is for it to be THEIR border. :p

And that's why I go through customs when I fly into Panama or why my dad had to go through customs everytime he flies commercial into Germany. No matter how you look at it, it is still a border.Actually, if you compare it to the only real border of the UK, it's totally different. You don't go through customs at all crossing the UK-Irish border.

Kinda wanted to lay the groundwork for saying "I do oppose border gates", particularly because you simply can't compare an airport to a regular border, since the airport borders every other airport that has connecting flights.

I am against Israel using food and medicament as weapons.Would you rather they use missiles and tanks as weapons to put a stop to Hamas?

I am against Israel using food and medicament as weapons.

I"m against suicide bombers as weapons.

So, wait. Your against countries erecting walls to defend thier own borders and territories from unauthorized access?I am against Israel using food and health as weapons against the Palestinian people.

Considering they are turning people back into Gaza...

no, the entry to Cairo is being blocked the communities on the border are racking in cash

win/win

Have you tried giant squids?

you would be fairly screwed if you went to war with chain smoking sushi chefs...

Really now? When you fly from the US to the UK do you expect to land in London, hop off the plane, walk over the lawn to a taxi and zoom off or do you expect to encounter walls?

pretty much UK flights to the UK from the US have that policy

Walls that are in fact manned by arm guards.

:eek: Jesus fuck what airports have you been too!? I was thinking having "armed" police at the main terminal was odd

We call it the immigration process. If walls are acceptable at the airport why are they unacceptable across a border gate? Or do you object to border gates as well?

actually airports don't have walls they have screening for stuff they don't want you bringing in and they stamp your passport

and I do object to border gates because they don't really work and living in an island just off the E.U mainland it would be rather silly to operate such things

I"m against ... weapons.good.







here is your non sniped post.
I"m against suicide bombers as weapons.

This thread sucks sweaty ass because it makes a false comparison. The Berlin Wall and the Israeli-border wall arn't the same thing. Obviously the OP either lacks the education to know the difference, is trying to flamebait on purpose, or in my opinion, most likely BOTH.

Really now? When you fly from the US to the UK do you expect to land in London, hop off the plane, walk over the lawn to a taxi and zoom off or do you expect to encounter walls? Walls that are in fact manned by arm guards. We call it the immigration process. If walls are acceptable at the airport why are they unacceptable across a border gate? Or do you object to border gates as well?


I would object if there were manned guards at all the borders of my tiny country that would not allow anyone to leave, not even for a short trip...

This thread sucks sweaty ass because it makes a false comparison. The Berlin Wall and the Israeli-border wall arn't the same thing. Obviously the OP either lacks the education to know the difference, is trying to flamebait on purpose, or in my opinion, most likely BOTH.cry me a river :D

If the "Palestinian people" choose to allow military action from their territory against Israel, then the "Palestinian people" can suffer the consequences of their choice. If it's more important to them to keep launching rockets into Israel than it is to have continued access to "food and health", then they can go hungry and get sick. Their choice, their problems.I'm not particularly interested in suffering for the bombing of the Sudanese medical factory, though.

If the "Palestinian people" choose to allow military action from their territory against Israel, then the "Palestinian people" can suffer the consequences of their choice. If it's more important to them to keep launching rockets into Israel than it is to have continued access to "food and health", then they can go hungry and get sick. Their choice, their problems.

yes because if there is one proven thing that pacifies a population its collective punishment!

I am against Israel using food and health as weapons against the Palestinian people.

If the "Palestinian people" choose to allow military action from their territory against Israel, then the "Palestinian people" can suffer the consequences of their choice. If it's more important to them to keep launching rockets into Israel than it is to have continued access to "food and health", then they can go hungry and get sick. Their choice, their problems.

This thread sucks sweaty ass because it makes a false comparison. The Berlin Wall and the Israeli-border wall arn't the same thing. Obviously the OP either lacks the education to know the difference, is trying to flamebait on purpose, or in my opinion, most likely BOTH.

Well said :D

:D

Neither of you noticed that we're not talking about the Israeli border here? Mayhap you lack the education to know the difference between the Egyptian-Gaza border and the Israeli-Gaza border?

This thread sucks sweaty ass because it makes a false comparison. The Berlin Wall and the Israeli-border wall arn't the same thing. Obviously the OP either lacks the education to know the difference, is trying to flamebait on purpose, or in my opinion, most likely BOTH.

Well said :D

that is like to say that if a muslim group launches a missile to US from the UK.. we now have to nuke the UK.

or that if a evangelical group launches a missile from alaska into Russian territory.. Russia should nuke the US.
If the ELECTED GOVERNMENT OF THE UK launches a missile into the US, or the ELECTED GOVERNMENT OF THE US launches a missile into Russia, there will be serious consequences.

If the "Palestinian people" choose to allow military action from their territory against Israel, then the "Palestinian people" can suffer the consequences of their choice. If it's more important to them to keep launching rockets into Israel than it is to have continued access to "food and health", then they can go hungry and get sick. Their choice, their problems.that is like to say that if a muslim group launches a missile to US from the UK.. we now have to nuke the UK.

or that if a evangelical group launches a missile from alaska into Russian territory.. Russia should nuke the US.

If the "Palestinian people" choose to allow military action from their territory against Israel, then the "Palestinian people" can suffer the consequences of their choice. If it's more important to them to keep launching rockets into Israel than it is to have continued access to "food and health", then they can go hungry and get sick. Their choice, their problems.

Except that Hama runs the hospitals and the soup kitchens so when things get tight, guess who becomes the 'heroes' of the people?
So every time Israel pulls dumbass shit like this, it strengthens Hamas' role in Gaza instead of weakening it. How the hell do you think they got into power in the first place? Israel gave them the means to achieve it.

:D

Neither of you noticed that we're not talking about the Israeli border here? Mayhap you lack the education to know the difference between the Egyptian-Gaza border and the Israeli-Gaza border?

Right let Egypt decide, and let the Palestinians have their harbors and airfields with which they can connect to the rest of the world. Then the world can decide on whether they would allow palestinians to travel to their countries :)

that is like to say that if a muslim group launches a missile to US from the UK.. we now have to nuke the UK.

or that if a evangelical group launches a missile from alaska into Russian territory.. Russia should nuke the US.

If it's one time, then it will be handled differently. If it keeps happening, then escalation happens. If an evangelical group keeps launching missiles from Alaska into Russia and US is doing nothing to stop it, it is pretty much a foregone conclusion that Russia will bomb Alaska. And if that doesn't stop, they will escalate it to bombing mainland.

That is how escalation, deterrence etc work. Fair or not fair is not even in the picture.

I am against Israel using food and health as weapons against the Palestinian people.

This is war. You cannot ask for one side to de-escalate while the other does not. Again, "moral" or not has got nothing to do here.

I don't think you can really compare it with the berlin wall, mainly because the BW was to keep their own people in, and the Gaza wall is a way to force the people of gaza to stop the rocket attacks.

emmmm, no, it isn't. Its what the Americans send billions to the Egyptians to do, for their Israeli allies.


shark infested burning lakes of tar have never really worked for me though .

Its hard on the sharks, for starters.

I"m against suicide bombers as weapons..

....preferring instead the more humane options of snipers and 2,000 pound bombs, along with tanks firing into tents. Good to see you taking a stand there.

The Berlin Wall and the Israeli-border wall ..

O that border. Yes, the Israeli wall is built to annex territory, while the Berlin wall was built to keep a population in. Fair point.

If the "Palestinian people" choose to allow military action from their territory against Israel, then the "Palestinian people" can suffer the consequences of their choice...

So if the "Israeli people" choose to allow military action from their territory against the Palestinains, then the "Israeli people" can suffer the consequences of their choice...

I"m against suicide bombers as weapons.
Spiffing, or something. Haven't been suicide attacks for ages, to be honest. This whole thing is pretty ridiculous, and we should be blockading Israeli ports to see how they like it, in my opinion.

When I was in Turkish Kurdistan in 1980, a squadron of helicopters flew low over me, frightening me considerably, but they kept going south. I later met a local military commander, who explained that the Iraqis had been fighting some Kurdish rebels and a couple mortar shells had landed on the Turkish side of the border. Plainly this was accidental, but that was not the point. Turkey sent helicopters to shoot up the Iraqi army base, and teach them not to let that happen. That's how things work.
Spiffing, or something. Haven't been suicide attacks for ages, to be honest.
Not since the wall, to be precise.

So if the "Israeli people" choose to allow military action from their territory against the Palestinains, then the "Israeli people" can suffer the consequences of their choice...

Israel can take care of itself. Props to the IDF.

....That's how things work.


Exactly. Things may not be "fair" or "just"...despite the players involved attempting to take the moral high ground via PR and propaganda. Sometimes even if this sort of escalation does not work in the long term (like cessation of hostilities and coming of peace)...the escalation will still take place due to the very nature of how entities like sovereign states behave. Especially if you are militarily stronger and when what the enemy wants is unacceptable to you.

Btw, just for the record, I don't agree with Israeli action and I believe that Israel's behavior is not conducive to peace at all. But I can understand why this behavior occurs.

Not since the wall, to be precise.

Not since all the main Palestinian groups agreed to stop attacks inside Israel, to be precise.

Israel can take care of itself. Props to the IDF. .

Yes, when it comes to beating badly armed civillians, causing women to miscarry, and annexing land, they're the ones to go with. The IDF - making hopscotch a life or death exercerise for Palestinian schoolgirls since 1948.....

Except that Hama runs the hospitals and the soup kitchens so when things get tight, guess who becomes the 'heroes' of the people?
So every time Israel pulls dumbass shit like this, it strengthens Hamas' role in Gaza instead of weakening it. How the hell do you think they got into power in the first place? Israel gave them the means to achieve it.

Gee, you've discovered the perfect way to wage war while getting people to make excuses for you:

1) Form a group that a) attacks another country while b) also bribing people with money, food, medicines, etc.

2) Attack that country at the same time you bribe the people.

3) Have your apologists and enablers tell the other country, "Don't respond, you'll just make your attackers "heroes" to the people they've bribed!"

Brilliant.

BTW: Israel "gave them the means to achieve it" by allowing elections in the so-called Palestinian territories in the first place, as well as withdrawing from Gaza.

BTW: Israel "gave them the means to achieve it" by allowing elections in the so-called Palestinian territories in the first place, as well as withdrawing from Gaza.

And when they didn't like the results of the elections? They closed off the place. Great stuff.

Yes, when it comes to beating badly armed civillians, causing women to miscarry, and annexing land, they're the ones to go with. The IDF - making hopscotch a life or death exercerise for Palestinian schoolgirls since 1948.....

Boo hoo hoo :rolleyes:

Ham-ass, deliberately targeting civilians since inception.

And when they didn't like the results of the elections? They closed off the place. Great stuff.

When the "Palestinian people" put a terrorist organization in charge of their government, they were made to face the consequences of their choice. Great stuff.

When the "Palestinian people" put a terrorist organization in charge of their government, they were made to face the consequences of their choice. Great stuff.


So presumably when ex-members of the Irgun were in the Israeli cabinet, it was ok to make them face the consquences of their choice...

So presumably when Ariel Sharon was put in charge of their Govermenment to to was ok to make them face the consequences of their choice...

Or are you suggesting that sauce for the goose is not for the gander?

This thread sucks sweaty ass because it makes a false comparison. The Berlin Wall and the Israeli-border wall arn't the same thing. Obviously the OP either lacks the education to know the difference, is trying to flamebait on purpose, or in my opinion, most likely BOTH.

That's right. Goddamned Muslim sand niggers ought to stay locked up where they belong.

If it's one time, then it will be handled differently. If it keeps happening, then escalation happens. If an evangelical group keeps launching missiles from Alaska into Russia and US is doing nothing to stop it..I never said the US is doing nothing to stop it.

The US gov says they are doing everything they can.

Russia says the Us gov is not doing everything they can.. So Russia gets ready to destroy 10 US Skyscrapers for every rocket that hits Russian territory. [/scenario]

BTW: Israel "gave them the means to achieve it" by allowing elections in the so-called Palestinian territories in the first place, as well as withdrawing from Gaza.


OMG! I can't believe they are giving people they have complete economic and military domination over a voice in government! It's inhuman!!! :mad:

Spiffing, or something. Haven't been suicide attacks for ages, to be honest.

They went down because of the wall.

This whole thing is pretty ridiculous, and we should be blockading Israeli ports to see how they like it, in my opinion.

Meh. Don't really care that much but Egypt sure as hell ain't liking this one bit. They are already trying to get the people back across the border.

And when they didn't like the results of the elections? They closed off the place. Great stuff.

Its not just that but Gaza fell to Hamas through a force of arms. That pretty much got the place sealed off.

They went down because of the wall.


They stopped because they declared a ceasefire and stopped trying, old fruit.

Its not just that but Gaza fell to Hamas through a force of arms.

Cart before horse, there. And why o why would the elected government need to launch a "coup"? Maybe they were just a bit nervous....

Deputy National Security Advisor, Elliott Abrams — who Newsweek recently described as “the last neocon standing” — has had it about for some months now that the U.S. is not only not interested in dealing with Hamas, it is working to ensure its failure. In the immediate aftermath of the Hamas elections, last January, Abrams greeted a group of Palestinian businessmen in his White House office with talk of a “hard coup” against the newly-elected Hamas government — the violent overthrow of their leadership with arms supplied by the United States. While the businessmen were shocked, Abrams was adamant — the U.S. had to support Fatah with guns, ammunition and training, so that they could fight Hamas for control of the Palestinian government."
http://conflictsforum.org/2007/elliot-abrams-uncivil-war/

Documents doing the rounds in the Middle East purport to have evidence for Abrams's "hard coup" strategy. One text recounts Washington's objectives as expressed in US officials' conversations with an Arab government. These are, among others, "to maintain President Abbas and Fatah as the centre of gravity on the Palestinian scene", "avoid wasting time in accommodating Hamas's ideological conditions", "undermine Hamas's political status through providing for Palestinian economic needs", and "strengthen the Palestinian president's authority to be able to call and conduct early elections by autumn 2007".
http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,,2108926,00.html

And preventing reconciliation......
"Rice also warned Abbas that the Bush Administration took a dim view of the Palestinian leader's proposed trip to Damascus for a meeting with Hamas's exiled leader Khaled Mashaal in a bid to pacify the near-civil war that has erupted in recent months between militants of Fatah and Hamas. Rice made it clear to Abbas, said one Palestinian source, that "she's worried Hamas will impose its conditions on Abbas."
http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1578039,00.html

Nodinia? I was just talking Gaza and not all of Palestine and yes. Hamas wrestled control of Gaza from Fatah through force of arms.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/870763.html

Hamas seizes final Fatah-run security compound in Gaza City

By Avi Issacharoff, Haaretz Correspondent, and Agencies

Hamas fighters seized control of the Palestinian presidential compound in Gaza City on Thursday, calling it the "last bastion" of Palestinian Authority Chairman Mahmoud Abbas's Fatah forces in the Gaza Strip.

The presidential compound is the last of four key Fatah-run security compounds in the city, which are now all under Hamas control, as the group completed its conquest of Gaza City amidst a campaign to gain complete control over the coastal strip.

This was back in June 2007.

Nodinia? I was just talking Gaza and not all of Palestine and yes. Hamas wrestled control of Gaza from Fatah through force of arms.


I never said they didn't, if you re-read the post....

I"m against suicide bombers as weapons.

so am I, but it is the best way to cause terror against your enemies with limited funding

so am I, but it is the best way to cause terror against your enemies with limited funding

And a good way to alienate most of the civilized world.

And a good way to alienate most of the civilized world.someones terrorist is someone elses freedom fighter

Hamas is on the following Terrorist list:
Israel, US, Canada, EU ,Japan.

BTW @ the UK only one wing of Hamas made it to the terror list. (Izz ad-Din al-Qassam Brigades)

So, for most of the World Hamas is not Terrorist.

I"m against suicide bombers as weapons.
Implying that those who are against Israeli occupation support suicide bombers?

You need to get out of this polarised view, Corny.

If the "Palestinian people" choose to allow military action from their territory against Israel, then the "Palestinian people" can suffer the consequences of their choice. If it's more important to them to keep launching rockets into Israel than it is to have continued access to "food and health", then they can go hungry and get sick. Their choice, their problems.
You put quote marks around 'Palestinian people', which seems to show that you recognise that it's specific Palestinian groups, not Joe Bloggs on the street, who's attacking Israel with missiles. Yet you seem to support collective punishment of the entire Palestinian population.

So which is it? Do you recognise that only a small minority are causing violence, and thus the entire population shouldn't be punished collectively, or are you under the delusion that every single Palestinian fires missiles into Israel?

Or, as it seems, do you just have a completely incoherent position?

And a good way to alienate most of the civilized world.

You mean America. Ironically.

You mean America. Ironically.

Um...Britain, and several other nations also cut funding when Hamas got elected. Hamas was and is a supporter of suicide attacks.

Um...Britain, and several other nations also cut funding when Hamas got elected. Hamas was and is a supporter of suicide attacks.

Yes, aren't they evil. Everybody stand around and point at the bad men.

Uzbekistani secret police actually have boiled people alive but there was no moral panic using air-bases there....Azerbaijan....beatings, intimimidation and its a dictatorship but ne'er a peep - because its a pro-western dictatorship.
China - big list there, Israel - legal torture, flagrant violations of Geneva but no, its a US ally so theres the nod and a wink employed there too.

Do you think people blown up by a tank shell have a last thought that goes 'O well, at least it wasnt a suicide bomber...that would be just awful'....?

Yes, aren't they evil. Everybody stand around and point at the bad men.

Yes Hamas is evil

Uzbekistani secret police actually have boiled people alive but there was no moral panic using air-bases there....Azerbaijan....beatings, intimimidation and its a dictatorship but ne'er a peep - because its a pro-western dictatorship.

And this whas what to do with this thread? Absolutely nothing in reality.

Yes Hamas is evil.
Hamas is the complete absence of good?

How bizarre.

Yes, aren't they evil. Everybody stand around and point at the bad men.

Uzbekistani secret police actually have boiled people alive but there was no moral panic using air-bases there....Azerbaijan....beatings, intimimidation and its a dictatorship but ne'er a peep - because its a pro-western dictatorship.
China - big list there, Israel - legal torture, flagrant violations of Geneva but no, its a US ally so theres the nod and a wink employed there too.

Do you think people blown up by a tank shell have a last thought that goes 'O well, at least it wasnt a suicide bomber...that would be just awful'....?

any way some one dies is horrible, but i didnt not about the uzbeks SP stuff
:(:(:(:(:(:(

This is nothing like the Berlin Wall. It was a necessary security measure.

Indeed.

Except that Hama runs the hospitals and the soup kitchens so when things get tight, guess who becomes the 'heroes' of the people?
So every time Israel pulls dumbass shit like this, it strengthens Hamas' role in Gaza instead of weakening it. How the hell do you think they got into power in the first place? Israel gave them the means to achieve it.well put.

Not since all the main Palestinian groups agreed to stop attacks inside Israel, to be precise.


Yes, when it comes to beating badly armed civillians, causing women to miscarry, and annexing land, they're the ones to go with. The IDF - making hopscotch a life or death exercerise for Palestinian schoolgirls since 1948.....
haha ur a funny guy. again.
someones terrorist is someone elses freedom fighter

Hamas is on the following Terrorist list:
Israel, US, Canada, EU ,Japan.

BTW @ the UK only one wing of Hamas made it to the terror list. (Izz ad-Din al-Qassam Brigades)

So, for most of the World Hamas is not Terrorist.
yea leaving just about south america, and all the muslim nations. Wonder who they'll support. It's surprising that the entire western 1st world nations care to describe the purposefull killing of innocent civillians as terrorism.
Implying that those who are against Israeli occupation support suicide bombers?

yes, they voted in Hamas by a majority on the running motto of 'death to Israel'.

This is nothing like the Berlin Wall. It was a necessary security measure.

This is nothing like the Berlin Wall. It was a necessary security measure.necessary?

I would like some details.

I never said the US is doing nothing to stop it.

The US gov says they are doing everything they can.

Russia says the Us gov is not doing everything they can.. So Russia gets ready to destroy 10 US Skyscrapers for every rocket that hits Russian territory. [/scenario]

Expanding on this will take this thread OT...as it is threads like this gets very OT and acrimonious. Last post from me on this.

Yes. If Russia can get away militarily that's what they will do. The thinking will be like "The choices are getting bombed by this "rogue" group or the US bombs us in retaliation...might as well bomb them anyways since we are getting bombed anyways".

When Hamas fires rockets, what do you expect Israel to do? Roll over and die?

And when Israel escalates by building walls, blockading Gazans, "collective punishment", what do I expect them to do? Blow up things in anger and frustration.

When this sort of escalation is happening on both sides, we just cannot expect one side to de-escalate unilaterally. We can keep on saying "OMG Israel...fucking zionists..how can they do like this" or "OMG Palis...fucking terrorists...how can they do like this"...and nothing is going to change until one side defeats the other comprehensively and totally or both agree to de-escalate and accommodate each other. Sadly, I am terrified of the former and pessimistic on the latter. So this will keep on simmering...:(

yes, they voted in Hamas by a majority on the running motto of 'death to Israel'.
You misunderstand. I didn't vote for Hamas, nor did anyone AFAIK on this forum.

When this sort of escalation is happening on both sides, we just cannot expect one side to de-escalate unilaterally. We can keep on saying "OMG Israel...fucking zionists..how can they do like this" or "OMG Palis...fucking terrorists...how can they do like this"...and nothing is going to change until one side defeats the other comprehensively and totally or both agree to de-escalate and accommodate each other.
Well said.

The polarisation of debate on the Palestinian issue, both here and in r/l, is completely useless, and rather harmful.

When Hamas fires rockets, what do you expect Israel to do? Roll over and die?..:(If I was Israel , on the short term I would strike the Rocket launching sites.
In the long term, If peace cannot be achieved with the neighbors, I would call the Re/max agent.

You misunderstand. I didn't vote for Hamas, nor did anyone AFAIK on this forum.


No, but some of you support terrorism (as in morally justify the killing of innocent Israeli civilians no matter how evil you believe Israel's actions to be against the Palestinians).
This comes from past comments I have seen on NSG.

Do you recognise that only a small minority are causing violence, and thus the entire population shouldn't be punished collectively, or are you under the delusion that every single Palestinian fires missiles into Israel?
The overwhelming majority of the Palestinians support the violence. The ones who actually perform the launching of the rockets are few in number, but could not function without the support they get from the society at large.

I was Israel , on the short term I would strike the Rocket launching sites.
Israel does this. People whine endlessly. Israel also goes after the people who give the orders to launch the rockets. People whine endlessly about that, too.


In the long term, If peace cannot be achieved with the neighbors, I would call the Re/max agent.
Easier said than done. Also, not exactly in keeping with the whole idea of civil rights. Me, I see Israel kind of like the black family who just moved into the previously whites-only neighborhood. If the neighbors are the ones causing the trouble, maybe it's the neighbors who need to go.

No, but some of you support terrorism (as in morally justify the killing of innocent Israeli civilians no matter how evil you believe Israel's actions to be against the Palestinians).
'Some of you'? 'You' being...?

Try not to polarise the debate; it's bad form.

The overwhelming majority of the Palestinians support the violence. The ones who actually perform the launching of the rockets are few in number, but could not function without the support they get from the society at large.
And this belief comes from where exactly?

There is no excuse for collectively punishing those who don't support violence, along with babies, children, the mentally ill or extremely old (none of who can support the violence) for the actions of others.

Me, I see Israel kind of like the black family who just moved into the previously whites-only neighborhood. If the neighbors are the ones causing the trouble, maybe it's the neighbors who need to go.maybe them.. or viceversa.

if they cant live side by side. One of them has to move.

If the "American people" choose to allow military action from their territory against *insert random country*, then the "American people" can suffer the consequences of their choice. If it's more important to them to keep launching attacks into *insert random country* than it is to have continued access to "food and health", then they can go hungry and get sick. Their choice, their problems.

Bolded for alterations.

Unsurprisingly, some Americans actually do have these views. They just don't link the events together, and individually put them under "not working hard enough" and "make America safe".

Just saying.

Gee, you've discovered the perfect way to wage war while getting people to make excuses for you:

1) Form a group that a) attacks another country while b) also bribing people with money, food, medicines, etc.

2) Attack that country at the same time you bribe the people.

3) Have your apologists and enablers tell the other country, "Don't respond, you'll just make your attackers "heroes" to the people they've bribed!"

Brilliant.


Curious. This is the same thing the US is doing, although they use patriotic claptrap rather than food, although they do throw in tax rebates occasionally.

And at the same time, you support foreign US military adventures don't you?

Curiouser and curiouser.

When the "Palestinian people" put a terrorist organization in charge of their government, they were made to face the consequences of their choice. Great stuff.

Then you clearly support the attacks against the American government don't you? After all, if not for the American government, certain radical factions wouldn't come to power, only to cause grief to America later on.

Yes Hamas is evil.
Not particularily, no.



And this whas what to do with this thread?

It demonstrates - by means of real-world examples - the double standard inherent in seeming to treat Hamas or suicide bombing with abhorrence, while treating others with even more unsavoury habits less so. You know this of course, but prefer to be obtuse rather than concede the point.

any way some one dies is horrible, but i didnt not about the uzbeks SP stuff

Thats because they signed on for the "coalition of the willing". If and when the day comes they need to be put in their place, you'll be drowned in the details. For the moment though, they tow the right line.

The elderly mother of a religious prisoner allegedly boiled to death by Uzbekistan's secret police has been sentenced to six years in a maximum security jail after she made public her son's torture.
Fatima Mukhadirova, 63, a former market vegetable seller, is the mother of Muzafar Avazov, who died in the notorious Jaslik high security jail in 2002. She was convicted of attempting to "overthrow the constitutional order".
http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,3604,1146979,00.html


haha ur a funny guy. again.

No valid points to make in this thread I see. At least you're consistent.

This is nothing like the Berlin Wall. It was a necessary security measure..

If we're referring to the Israeli wall, then no, its not entirely for security. Otherwise why doesnt it follow Israels borders?
And there might be any need for any wall, were Israel to abandon its colonial ambitions in the OT.

The overwhelming majority of the Palestinians support the violence. The ones who actually perform the launching of the rockets are few in number, but could not function without the support they get from the society at large.

well lets see, Israel bombs their houses, Hamas hits them back, resulting in more bombing, resulting in more rockets, and so on and so on, regardless of whether Israel is bombing the crap out of the Palestianins, they are gonna lose, due to this simple fact: palestinanins have more kids. population boom, right now there are maybe 8,000,000 palestianins, whoe each will have like 4 kids, the israelis only have like 7,000,000 and they only have like 2 kids, do the math.
PS: i am the nation formerly known as Rogue Protoss, i decided to change the name

yes, they voted in Hamas by a majority on the running motto of 'death to Israel'.

????? the only reason hamas won the election was because they promised an end to corruption, blackmail, and added security, which was better than what Fatah promised

Historically speaking, walls are not very effective. The Berlin wall and the great wall of china, along with the Siegfried and Maginot lines were ultimately failures. Governments in the world today do not seem to get this message.

While accepting the basic principle that, in the long run, walls aren't the most effective solution, and while also acknowledging that I think the 'Israeli Security Barrier' is fundamentally immoral, I thought I'd offer a more nuanced analysis of the effectiveness of walls... Some of them have, historically, worked very well for a time, or better than historical hindsight initially suggests.

1) The Berlin Wall clearly was highly effective so long as it stood. The intent was to stop people escaping from East Berlin to West Berlin, which it managed quite effectively. The Wall only came down when communism collapsed, after all, rather than the fall of the Wall causing the collapse of communism.

2) That depends on what you think the Great Wall of China was for. If you think it was supposed to mark an uncrossable military frontier, then it clearly failed miserably (and often). However, like Hadrian's Wall, it may instead have been built to both mark the limits of effective permanent control and to stop raiders from easily getting back out with their loot (rather than to stop them from getting in). This doesn't eliminate the use of either wall as a defensive barrier, but defence wasn't necessarily the whole story.

3) Neither the Siegfried Line nor the Maginot Line were 'walls' as such, though the case can be made that they were 20th century equivalents. The Maginot Line gets a bad press in that it didn't stop France from falling to the Nazis, and the belief that the French had no solution to an opposing army simply going around the Maginot Line (of course that nice Mr. Hitler's going to respect Belgian neutrality). But the Line arguably succeeded in so far as it was designed to stop a direct assault on France from Germany, and force Germany to bypass the line through Belgium or Switzerland; the French High Command expected the Line to be bypassed, and had massed most of their army on the Belgian frontier. The Allied inability to cope with the German advance through Belgium was the flaw in the plan, not the existence of the Maginot line itself. It's worth noting that the Line was largely unattacked, unbreached, and still defended at the point of French surrender in June 1940. The Siegfried Line was, in 1944, only a recently re-activated version of the late 1930s German counterpart to the Maginot Line, and hadn't been built to withstand the latest advances in Allied armour-piercing weapons technology that had been developed in the interim; it simply wasn't up to the job.

????? the only reason hamas won the election was because they promised an end to corruption, blackmail, and added security, which was better than what Fatah promised

..aided by the fact that the US said they wouldn't deal with the reformist Fatah candidate if he ran and won.

????? the only reason hamas won the election was because they promised an end to corruption, blackmail, and added security, which was better than what Fatah promised

And yet they have done none of those things either.

And yet they have done none of those things either.

Just like any other politician. Not a free pass, but hardly anything to focus more on than any other politician who runs on empty promises.

And yet they have done none of those things either.


Who says? You? The main problem in Gaza now is Israel.

Who says? You? The main problem in Gaza now is Israel.

The main problem now is that the border was forced open illegally and now it is Egypts problem now as well.

The main problem now is that the border was forced open illegally and now it is Egypts problem now as well.

And why was it forced open illegally? They've been blockaded in at the behest of Israel and the US.

And why was it forced open illegally? They've been blockaded in at the behest of Israel and the US.

And by Egypt. SOmething that actually has been overlooked here.

UN Security Council Awaits US OK On Gaza Statement

UNITED NATIONS (AFP)--The Security Council was to meet Thursday to hear whether Washington would agree to a compromise statement urging an end to Israel's siege of the Gaza Strip and to rocket firing into the Jewish state.

The council's 15 ambassadors were to meet at 11:00 a.m. after Libya's UN Ambassador Giadalla Ettalhi, the council chair this month, indicated Wednesday that 14 members essentially agreed to a revised text worked out by council experts.

Diplomats said the U.S. delegation was to consult Washington for instruction...The World would like to condemn the siege of Gaza and rockets.. the World is waiting for Bush to give his nod..

The World would like to condemn the siege of Gaza and rockets.. the World is waiting to Bush to give his nod..

Since the US does have Veto authority...they pretty much have no choice. Hopefully Bush will nod.

And by Egypt. .

..who receive a vast amount of 'play nice' money from the US....,

..who receive a vast amount of 'play nice' money from the US....,

Maybe but they do not like Hamas anymore than Israel does and for the same reasons.

PS: i am the nation formerly known as Rogue Protoss, i decided to change the nameI never would have noticed...

Maybe but they do not like Hamas anymore than Israel does and for the same reasons.

Pssst, Corny. Nations don't have feelings. Egypt can't like or dislike anybody.

And this belief comes from where exactly?

There is no excuse for collectively punishing those who don't support violence, along with babies, children, the mentally ill or extremely old (none of who can support the violence) for the actions of others.
It comes from every poll and election ever conducted in Palestine. It would be difficult to find those among the adult population who "don't" support the violence.
I do, however, agree it is bad that children often take the brunt of it.

And yet they have done none of those things either.

have you ever seen a politician who kept his word?

I never would have noticed...

ha ha, sorry i was in the wrong user, this is my new one

ha ha, sorry i was in the wrong user, this is my new one

Uh-huh.

You trying to say something with this new nation name?

Maybe but they do not like Hamas anymore than Israel does and for the same reasons.

sort of true, hamas has links to the Islamic Brotherhood, which is the main opposition to the Mubarak dicatorship, since more than 50% support them against the goverment, which is seen as a corrupt over grown piece of US loving rotting meat

Uh-huh.

You trying to say something with this new nation name?

just a counter to IDF, and Lolz









mostly Lolz

Not quite "came down".

More: "was temporarily broken in one or two places".

It's probably going to make things worse.

It comes from every poll and election ever conducted in Palestine.
So it'd be easy for you to show us some evidence then, wouldn't it?

I do, however, agree it is bad that children often take the brunt of it.
Not just children, by any means.

It's probably going to make things worse.how?
why?

It's strange to observe the failure of Israeli policy and how Israel is losing the propaganda war to Hamas with so little effort. And it's kinda fun to see the failure of collective punishment.

But I wonder if this doesn't make Israel happy, and brings them one step closer to the semi-official goal of complete disengagement without commiting to a lasting peace agreement.

It will be interesting to see how this all plays out.

It's strange to observe the failure of Israeli policy and how Israel is losing the propaganda war to Hamas with so little effort. And it's kinda fun to see the failure of collective punishment.It is a good day whenever collective punishment fails.

So it'd be easy for you to show us some evidence then, wouldn't it?
I'll dig up some opinion polls if you like, but surely the last election was well-covered? There were two parties favoring a cessation of violence, run by Ashrawi and Naisrullah if you know those names; they got between 1 and 2% each.

If the "Palestinian people" choose to allow military action from their territory against Israel, then the "Palestinian people" can suffer the consequences of their choice. If it's more important to them to keep launching rockets into Israel than it is to have continued access to "food and health", then they can go hungry and get sick. Their choice, their problems.
That's how it works? So, as the US people chose to allow the US, through the CIA, to arm the Mujahideen, and make them more militant than they used to be, then September 11 was the choice of the US people. I didn't think you'd see it that way. Refreshing to see that the lefty liberal tree huggers on NSG are getting through to you.

Or have you got some non hypocritical way to show how the situations are different?:rolleyes:

sort of true, hamas has links to the Islamic Brotherhood, which is the main opposition to the Mubarak dicatorship, since more than 50% support them against the goverment, which is seen as a corrupt over grown piece of US loving rotting meat

The Egyptian government was actually rather popular back in the Nasser days when it actively engaged with it's own people, back then the authoritarianism wasn't really a problem with the people.

On the fourth day now, after egyptian forces fail to secure the border.

I also wonder about the implications this will have on Egypt.

On the fourth day now, after egyptian forces fail to secure the border.

I also wonder about the implications this will have on Egypt.Depends. They're not allowed to have major military forces on Sinai, so that could be a problem in mobilizing enough force to close the border.

Depends. They're not allowed to have major military forces on Sinai, so that could be a problem in mobilizing enough force to close the border.

Yeah - but I was wondering more about thet political fallout, if the Muslim Brotherhood and Hamas will use this to challenge Mubarak in any way.

But yes, there's also a question if Egypt is able to shut the border again, at least in the near future.

On the fourth day now, after egyptian forces fail to secure the border.

I also wonder about the implications this will have on Egypt.

The US may threaten the 'happy money' and investment to get them to do what they're told.

how?
why?

For starters, even more border security: razor wire, snipers, etc...

Just speculating.

I’ll dig up some opinion polls if you like, but surely the last election was well-covered? There were two parties favoring a cessation of violence, run by Ashrawi and Naisrullah if you know those names; they got between 1 and 2% each.
So not everyone supported a continuation of violence. And there’s nothing to show that those who voted for Hamas necessarily voted for them because the supported violence.

I still don’t see how collective punishment is legitimate or even useful here.

I never said "everyone" supports the violence; I said "the overwhelming majority" of Palestinians do, which I thought was so well-known as to practically go without saying.
Walling them off has been quite effective for the Israelis: suicide-bomber infiltrations are down to practically zero (it's been months, long enough that I can't remember how long, since the last one); and the rocket attacks do kill occasionally but at a very low rate. Israel's interests are to minimize Israeli casualties, and they care very little about what it costs on the Palestinian side. Is there some reason you should expect them to behave differently?

I never said “everyone” supports the violence; I said “the overwhelming majority” of Palestinians do, which I thought was so well-known as to practically go without saying.
And I’m asking for a reason why people who don’t or can’t support violence should be collectively punished.

Israel’s interests are to minimize Israeli casualties, and they care very little about what it costs on the Palestinian side. Is there some reason you should expect them to behave differently?
Because the above attitude obviously (so fucking blindingly obviously) won’t stop Palestinian militant reaction, or do anything towards solving a complicated situation.

I never said "everyone" supports the violence; I said "the overwhelming majority" of Palestinians do, which I thought was so well-known as to practically go without saying.
Walling them off has been quite effective for the Israelis: suicide-bomber infiltrations are down to practically zero (it's been months, long enough that I can't remember how long, since the last one); and the rocket attacks do kill occasionally but at a very low rate. Israel's interests are to minimize Israeli casualties, and they care very little about what it costs on the Palestinian side. Is there some reason you should expect them to behave differently?

Well, I did think they had souls.

And I’m asking for a reason why people who don’t or can’t support violence should be collectively punished.
The Israelis want to minimize their casualties. The only way they have found to do this is to wall off the whole area. The majority of Palestinians continue to prefer continuing the violence to ending their isolation.

Because the above attitude obviously (so fucking blindingly obviously) won’t stop Palestinian militant reaction, or do anything towards solving a complicated situation.
It doesn't "stop" the Palestinian violence; it stops it from costing very many lives. That's doing something.