NationStates Jolt Archive

...and I can't shake the feeling that I'm reading an LOTR clone.

Quiz: Which story am I describing:

A mysterious magic-using figure appears in a sleepy little out-of-the way town to warn a young man about a terrible evil that's rising again. This evil was defeated before when the races united against it, but it is rising again to take over everything.

This young man, and one companion, leave the village with only the knowledge that they must reach a far away town in the woods where this mysterious magic user will rejoin them. He then leaves. They know their quest is ultimately to deny a powerful magic articaft from this terrible evil warlord, but until now they'd only heard of it in legend.

Along the way, they enlist the help of a man who is skilled in hunting and is a talented woodsman, and he joins them to help them reach their destination. They constantly have to elude scouts of the dark warlord that are searching for him.

Later in the journey, our hero finds himself unconscious and awakens in the town of their destination, where evenually the mysterious magic user rejoins him and presides over a multi-racial council to decide what to do next.

Question: Which story have I just described the first part of? (This is as far as I've gotten in SoS.)

Now I'm trying to decide if I really feel like finishing it. Anyone else read it?

Many, many years ago... and "LOTR clone" was what occurred to me, back then, too.
(Although it does have a series of sequels in which its world develops more of a distinct identity...)

Read it when I was 12... got bored really soon and returned to good SF/Fantasy instead.

I'm paraphrasing a review I read years ago, when I say that the biggest mystery about Terry Brooks writing is where he gets all the cardboard for his characters.

I used to read Terry Brooks as a kid...thought his books were crap then...my opinion hasn't changed

Ahhh I don't know the whole Shanara series are not too bad.

Hmmm, haven't read that in a while. *goes to teh wikeh for a plot synopsis*

Thought so. The sword isn't being kept from the Warlock Lord, since he would have no use for it other than to destroy it. But yeah, it is very LOTR-esque.

Terry Brooks is an average writer, just like Terry Goodkind and J.K. Rowling(just random examples). Some of their books are good, some suck out loud, but none of them are ever really great.

I read this one and Elfstones of Shannara many years ago in High School and I recall them not being bad, though I remember almost nothing of the story. Maybe it helped that I hadn't read LOTR yet at the time.

...and I can't shake the feeling that I'm reading an LOTR clone.

Quiz: Which story am I describing:

A mysterious magic-using figure appears in a sleepy little out-of-the way town to warn a young man about a terrible evil that's rising again. This evil was defeated before when the races united against it, but it is rising again to take over everything.

This young man, and one companion, leave the village with only the knowledge that they must reach a far away town in the woods where this mysterious magic user will rejoin them. He then leaves. They know their quest is ultimately to deny a powerful magic articaft from this terrible evil warlord, but until now they'd only heard of it in legend.

Along the way, they enlist the help of a man who is skilled in hunting and is a talented woodsman, and he joins them to help them reach their destination. They constantly have to elude scouts of the dark warlord that are searching for him.

Later in the journey, our hero finds himself unconscious and awakens in the town of their destination, where evenually the mysterious magic user rejoins him and presides over a multi-racial council to decide what to do next.

Question: Which story have I just described the first part of? (This is as far as I've gotten in SoS.)

Now I'm trying to decide if I really feel like finishing it. Anyone else read it?

The series throughout has some good plots. I have read the entirety of the Shannara Series except the newst trilogy that is still not complete. I have read the prequel, the Sword of Shannara trilogy, The Scions of Shannara series (four books) The Voyages of the Jerle Shannara trilogy, and I have started the High Druid of Shannara trilogy.

My advice is to read them, it seems like a clone but there are a few differences, all of the races (really, menaing elves, and dwarves) are a lot closer to humans than they are in LOTR, and after this book they depart somewhat from that plot idea.

In response to someone who compared Terry Brooks to Terry Goodkind, I'm sorry but you are mistake, Brooks has gotta be 50 times better. I can't abide Terry Goodkind's writing, his plot is lame, he is ridiculously graphic, but then takes some amount of credit for not having swearing... also he is a direct clone of WoT.

More on that later, I need to go.

The series throughout has some good plots. I have read the entirety of the Shannara Series except the newst trilogy that is still not complete. I have read the prequel, the Sword of Shannara trilogy, The Scions of Shannara series (four books) The Voyages of the Jerle Shannara trilogy, and I have started the High Druid of Shannara trilogy.

My advice is to read them, it seems like a clone but there are a few differences, all of the races (really, menaing elves, and dwarves) are a lot closer to humans than they are in LOTR, and after this book they depart somewhat from that plot idea.

In response to someone who compared Terry Brooks to Terry Goodkind, I'm sorry but you are mistake, Brooks has gotta be 50 times better. I can't abide Terry Goodkind's writing, his plot is lame, he is ridiculously graphic, but then takes some amount of credit for not having swearing... also he is a direct clone of WoT.

More on that later, I need to go.

And when all is said and done Tolkien did really brake the mold, it's no wonder most fantasy after him has the same ring to it.

The very first book was essentially a LOTR clone.

All the books after that, however, broke the original LOTR mold and became something unique on their own. Not truly fantastic, but good enough that I found the series the only fantasy series I ever truly enjoyed.

it's not the Wish Song one is it ?

And when all is said and done Tolkien did really brake the mold, it's no wonder most fantasy after him has the same ring to it.

Oh absolutely, you see Tolkienian influences everywhere. I think almost all fantasy has inseperable ties to the Tolkien legacy. I play D&D, I get exposure to this legacy on a daily basis (quite apart form the fantasy novels that I read).

The books do however break away, each has it's own plot, and subplot, and even teh various trilogies cross vast spectrums of experience, and new ideas. The greates fantasy series ever? No. Pretty good? Yes.

To be fair, LOTR itself is based in large part on ancient myths and legends -- the One Ring, for instance, comes straight out of old Norse mythology; numerous cultures have legendaria concerning diminutive, ground-dwelling humanoids and councils of powerful wizards; et cetera. All Tolkien did was take all those elements, unify 'em, and turn the whole thing into an analogy of his time period.

It's no surprise that plenty of other fantasy writers are going to the same myths and legends for inspiration. There are few innovators who do not base their novelty on something that came before. And most writers are no innovators, either.

To be fair, LOTR itself is based in large part on ancient myths and legends -- the One Ring, for instance, comes straight out of old Norse mythology; numerous cultures have legendaria concerning diminutive, ground-dwelling humanoids and councils of powerful wizards; et cetera. All Tolkien did was take all those elements, unify 'em, and turn the whole thing into an analogy of his time period.

True, but putting it into fantasy is something that really goes to him, and most other fantasy authors use him more for inspiration, rather than similar legends as he used.

And most writers are no innovators, either.

Terry Goodkind? I mean, talk about a cheap, crappily written, and poorly done overall re-writing of the Wheel of Time series.

Terry Goodkind is thus far my least favourite fiction author.

it's not the Wish Song one is it ?

No, IIRC that's book 3.

To be fair, LOTR itself is based in large part on ancient myths and legends -- the One Ring, for instance, comes straight out of old Norse mythology; numerous cultures have legendaria concerning diminutive, ground-dwelling humanoids and councils of powerful wizards; et cetera. All Tolkien did was take all those elements, unify 'em, and turn the whole thing into an analogy of his time period.

It's no surprise that plenty of other fantasy writers are going to the same myths and legends for inspiration. There are few innovators who do not base their novelty on something that came before. And most writers are no innovators, either.

But the thing is, there is a LOT of what's called "High Fantasy" that involves those elements of dwarves, elves, magic, etc. They're unique and individual beyond that underlying foundation, though. I mean, any high fantasy setting, at this point, is expected to have certain archetypes and elements that the reader is used to. Dragonlance, for example, has the classic elements I listed above. So would Elvenblood, Forgotten Realms, Warhammer, EverQuest, Warcraft, etc etc etc.

My objection here is that even the plot itself seems derived from LOTR.

I've never understood the following for Sword of Shannnara. It's like Terry Brooks wrote it for people who couldn't get past the writing in Tolkien's books and wanted an easier read.

Personally I recommend reading the Song of Ice and Fire series by George R. R. Martin. A FAAAR superior fantasy series. The first book is A Game of Thrones.

I've never understood the following for Sword of Shannnara. It's like Terry Brooks wrote it for people who couldn't get past the writing in Tolkien's books and wanted an easier read.

Personally I recommend reading the Song of Ice and Fire series by George R. R. Martin. A FAAAR superior fantasy series. The first book is A Game of Thrones.

Maybe I'll hit those after I recover from WoT...

But the thing is, there is a LOT of what's called "High Fantasy" that involves those elements of dwarves, elves, magic, etc. They're unique and individual beyond that underlying foundation, though. I mean, any high fantasy setting, at this point, is expected to have certain archetypes and elements that the reader is used to. Dragonlance, for example, has the classic elements I listed above. So would Elvenblood, Forgotten Realms, Warhammer, EverQuest, Warcraft, etc etc etc.

My objection here is that even the plot itself seems derived from LOTR.

Given that LOTR's plot itself is highly similar to the plots of numerous ancient legends -- a cursed artifact, a cataclysmic battle between titanic personifications of good and evil, a relevatory journey across the known world, forbidden or at least difficult to obtain knowledge -- and given the epic proportions and universality of Tolkien's legendarium, it's no surprise once again that fantasy writers turn there. Few fictional worlds are better constructed, as detailed, and as realistic as a world with dragons and elves and talking plants can be.

Oh, and I've always wanted to write a high fantasy novel or story that contains absolutely no accepted elements of the genre -- you know, no dwarves or elves or magic or whatever. And there's no Stormtrooper Effect, either. Unless the Forces of Love and Righteousness are better trained and more astute than the Dread Spawn of Grisly Chaos, they're gonna get owned.

Given that LOTR's plot itself is highly similar to the plots of numerous ancient legends -- a cursed artifact, a cataclysmic battle between titanic personifications of good and evil, a relevatory journey across the known world, forbidden or at least difficult to obtain knowledge -- and given the epic proportions and universality of Tolkien's legendarium, it's no surprise once again that fantasy writers turn there. Few fictional worlds are better constructed, as detailed, and as realistic as a world with dragons and elves and talking plants can be.

Oh, and I've always wanted to write a high fantasy novel or story that contains absolutely no accepted elements of the genre -- you know, no dwarves or elves or magic or whatever. And there's no Stormtrooper Effect, either. Unless the Forces of Love and Righteousness are better trained and more astute than the Dread Spawn of Grisly Chaos, they're gonna get owned.

The Elvenblood Trilogy took an interesting tack in that they made the Elves a race that had fled into the universe where the story is set through some kind of dimensional portal. Once there, they enslaved human beings, using the women as pleasure slaves and the men as gladiators. Half Elves were anathema and were killed on sight. It was definitely a new spin on an old idea.

I lump it with the same category as Eragon.

Decent book if you don't set your standards high and you're bored with nothing else to read.

I never got further than halfway until their mediocrity got to me, and I had to put the book down.

Am I being critical? Yes, I'm being very critical. Like I said, if you don't set your standards high for a good book, then they're pretty decent.

Terry Goodkind? I mean, talk about a cheap, crappily written, and poorly done overall re-writing of the Wheel of Time series.
Here's the thing about Terry Goodkind: His first three books were his best. Yep. After that, Emperor Jagang comes in and the plot starts getting formulated. "Yay, the chick and Richard are together at the beginning of the book and happy, but then something happens to separate them, but at the end they're united and happy HOORAY!... Until the next book, when Jagang comes up with another evil plan."

Remember the one where they went to that racist society, where one caste was always blamed for all the crime and they were all naturally evil, and they followed that one character for a third of the book and he has absolutely no impact on the story or the main characters.

When the same thing started to happen in the Pillars of Creation, (one third through the book, NO SIGN OF RICHARD OR THAT ONE CHICK) I just stopped reading.

On the other hand, his first three books were mega-badass, what with his half brother who would kill women for laughing at his scars, the old wizard guy, the sand and that one badass creatures that used bees to kill things. I recommend the first three books to most people who like fantasy.

Emperor Jagang, on the other hand, sucks balls.

Edit: I also disliked the way he killed *SPOILERS*Warren*SPOILERS* to make such a minor moral point. Seriously, it just came out of the blue and nothing really happened because of it, except that an awesome character was no longer part of the plot.

...and I can't shake the feeling that I'm reading an LOTR clone.

Quiz: Which story am I describing:

A mysterious magic-using figure appears in a sleepy little out-of-the way town to warn a young man about a terrible evil that's rising again. This evil was defeated before when the races united against it, but it is rising again to take over everything.

This young man, and one companion, leave the village with only the knowledge that they must reach a far away town in the woods where this mysterious magic user will rejoin them. He then leaves. They know their quest is ultimately to deny a powerful magic articaft from this terrible evil warlord, but until now they'd only heard of it in legend.

Along the way, they enlist the help of a man who is skilled in hunting and is a talented woodsman, and he joins them to help them reach their destination. They constantly have to elude scouts of the dark warlord that are searching for him.

Later in the journey, our hero finds himself unconscious and awakens in the town of their destination, where evenually the mysterious magic user rejoins him and presides over a multi-racial council to decide what to do next.

Question: Which story have I just described the first part of? (This is as far as I've gotten in SoS.)

Now I'm trying to decide if I really feel like finishing it. Anyone else read it?

It does give off that vibe, but read it anyway. It is a good book. Some of the sequels are really good too. Particularly the Efstones of Shannara. Stick it out man.

I got 36 pages into Sword of Shannarah before I put it down. Too 'cookie cutter' fantasy for me. It was dull.

I got through 1/3 of A Game of Thrones. Good writing, but I don't care for the characters and find it really hard to muster any feeling for them, so the book largely collects dust.

I got 5 books into Wheel of Time before I got sick of the whining and put it down.

I read Sword of Truth until half way through Chainfire, then I got bored and having picked it up since. My mistake there was believing that after so many books he'd actually write something original. I liked the first five (Blood of the Fold not included... my god that was a boring book)

The only fantasy series I have been activity on the edge of my seat following has been Steven Brusts' Jhereg series. It feels different to me, but that might just be me. The chronology is hard to follow, but on the whole, I like it.

I got 36 pages into Sword of Shannarah before I put it down. Too 'cookie cutter' fantasy for me. It was dull.

I got through 1/3 of A Game of Thrones. Good writing, but I don't care for the characters and find it really hard to muster any feeling for them, so the book largely collects dust.

I got 5 books into Wheel of Time before I got sick of the whining and put it down.

I read Sword of Truth until half way through Chainfire, then I got bored and having picked it up since. My mistake there was believing that after so many books he'd actually write something original. I liked the first five (Blood of the Fold not included... my god that was a boring book)

The only fantasy series I have been activity on the edge of my seat following has been Steven Brusts' Jhereg series. It feels different to me, but that might just be me. The chronology is hard to follow, but on the whole, I like it.

Hmm, have you read anything by Steven Erikson? His books are absolutely amazing. Especially Memories of Ice.

Hmm, have you read anything by Steven Erikson? His books are absolutely amazing. Especially Memories of Ice.

Not as of yet, but I'll note it for later. At the moment I'm happilly chewing through Ender's Game, which is strange for me, since usually I don't like Sci-Fi.

I enjoyed it when I was younger ... I actually read them long before LOTR but knew soon as I read them that it was very simmilar

Later in the series things sort of separated them selfs though

https://www.blogger.com/start ?

Here's the thing about Terry Goodkind: His first three books were his best. Yep. After that, Emperor Jagang comes in and the plot starts getting formulated. "Yay, the chick and Richard are together at the beginning of the book and happy, but then something happens to separate them, but at the end they're united and happy HOORAY!... Until the next book, when Jagang comes up with another evil plan."

Remember the one where they went to that racist society, where one caste was always blamed for all the crime and they were all naturally evil, and they followed that one character for a third of the book and he has absolutely no impact on the story or the main characters.

When the same thing started to happen in the Pillars of Creation, (one third through the book, NO SIGN OF RICHARD OR THAT ONE CHICK) I just stopped reading.

On the other hand, his first three books were mega-badass, what with his half brother who would kill women for laughing at his scars, the old wizard guy, the sand and that one badass creatures that used bees to kill things. I recommend the first three books to most people who like fantasy.

Emperor Jagang, on the other hand, sucks balls.

Edit: I also disliked the way he killed *SPOILERS*Warren*SPOILERS* to make such a minor moral point. Seriously, it just came out of the blue and nothing really happened because of it, except that an awesome character was no longer part of the plot.

The first book was ok, I would honestly not rate it a point above 6 (out of ten), book two was maybe four, but at this point I had invested ~1800 pages in the series, so I might as well continue, I read book three... and wanted to gag, it was one of the worst books I have ever read. One line stick with me as the worst written line ever: "THE CREATOR BE A BANELING!" said by the head Blood of the Fold guy at the end, it was the worst line ever, he created unrealistic characters and plots based off of Robert Jordan's works (Wheel of Time). After book three I would have even kept reading, however the friend that I borrowed the books from was still reading #4, I was so ready to jump ship that I immediately started Wheel of Time, where not only did the memory of Sword of Truth stay black in my mind, but it was shadowed ever the more after seeing the ridiculousness of him stealing so blatantly from Robert Jordan... he really should've been sued for plaguerism.

Not as of yet, but I'll note it for later. At the moment I'm happilly chewing through Ender's Game, which is strange for me, since usually I don't like Sci-Fi.

Orson Scott Card is much more into the psychology of the characters than most sci-fi or fantasy writers. His books vary in quality, of course, but all of them are good (IMO).

As long as people keep lapping up repetitive rubbish, it will keep getting pumped out.

David Eddings. He's written 1 book 20 something times.

Terry Pratchett. Written 3 books about 20+ times each now?

Dragonlance: It's a book franchise. What are you thinking reading this dross? A franchise!

Robert Jordan: Finish it already. Each book covers less time, and gets thicker. By book 20 he'll be explaining the quantum fluctuation in Rand's brain, and it will be bigger than a University Level Quantum Theory Textbook. Stopped reading that at book 4 I think.

Raymond E Feist: Magician. One of the best fantasy novels ever. And then he wrote rubbish. And then another author wrote more rubbish in his world.

David Gemmell: Legend. Great book. And then he did what Feist did, Kept pumping out rubbish.

Don't get me wrong. If I could come up with a book idea the public lapped up, I'd keep writing for as long as they kept giving me cash. I'd sell out my artistic integrity in a heartbeat. My real integrity isn't for sale.

I don't fault the author, but I do dislike their books, and the people who keep buying them, as it fills the market with dross, and means book publishers wont try to find new, original material.

Since I'm paying out on authors, I'll put a few Fantasy authors I like so others can have a go at my taste. :) Steven Brust is very entertaining. Phillip G Williamson is good at fantasy. Lyndon Hardy "Master of the 5 Magics" is different.

A few SF books to throw in. "Startide Rising" by David Brin is brilliant, as is the Paratwa series by Christoper Hinz.

Robert Jordan: Finish it already. Each book covers less time, and gets thicker. By book 20 he'll be explaining the quantum fluctuation in Rand's brain, and it will be bigger than a University Level Quantum Theory Textbook. Stopped reading that at book 4 I think.


Well there's good news for you if you wanted that seried to finish... Robert Jordan is dead. Fortunately, he was working on the last book (#12) and the torch has been passed to another author to finish for him. Before he died, he met with the new guy and explained to him how it should happen.

Lyndon Hardy "Master of the 5 Magics" is different.

Cept of course that was a trilogy. Meh it's how us fantasy fiction fans like it thoigh innit!

Cept of course that was a trilogy. Meh it's how us fantasy fiction fans like it thoigh innit!
It was originally written as a stand alone book. I rarely read Fantasy anymore, because of the mass prodiced trilogy.

Here's a fantasy book primer if you want to write one.

Book 1: Hard core group of individual have to get somewhere and do something to save the world. They wander around the world doing quirky side quests for everyone, even though their quest is vitally important, and these side quests are trivial. They collect enough plot coupons, the character who was written to die, dies in a soppy scene(the book is padded enough for the editors benefit) and they beat the dark lord.

The world is often completely illogical. For example, In a country full of axe wielding maniacs, who makes the food?

Book 2: Patsy weakling meets a strange old bloke. Old bloke is actually really important. Old bloke dies protecting stupid patsy weakling (often the patsy needs saving because he disobeyed the old bloke),but not before he has the chance to train the patsy weakling, and turn him in to an arse kicker. If the book is turned in to a mvoie, this makes a great montage scene. Think Team America, or Karate Kid. Patsy weakling has quirky adventures and side quests (collects plot coupons) and then kills the dark lord.

Dark Lord can be evil queen, king, lich king, wicked witch, the emperor, etc.

Science Fiction has much more original thought. And for me at least, the older I've got the more non fiction I read too.

Since I'm paying out on authors, I'll put a few Fantasy authors I like so others can have a go at my taste. :) Steven Brust is very entertaining. Phillip G Williamson is good at fantasy. Lyndon Hardy "Master of the 5 Magics" is different.


Yay! Another Brust fan! I find it hard to find anyone who has even heard of him, let alone read any of his books. :(

Orson Scott Card is much more into the psychology of the characters than most sci-fi or fantasy writers. His books vary in quality, of course, but all of them are good (IMO).

Agreed. I think that's why I can take Ender's Game so well. The sci-fi genre largely doesn't interest me.

Yeah, The Sword of Shannara seemed very stereotypical, I didn't like the second Shannara book much. Then again, I enjoy books where I can tell what's going to happen, sometimes. The Sword-Dancer Saga by Jennifer Roberson is a VERY good series, in my opinion.

...and I can't shake the feeling that I'm reading an LOTR clone.
Because you are. Never has another mass-market book been such a blatant copy previous work.

I never read it, but at university one of my professors (I was in a Speculative Fiction class) detailed all the ways in which the two are exactly the same, and then pointed out the cosmetic differences that prevent it from being a reprint of LotR.

What do all of you think of Glen Cook's books? I read "Instrumentalities of Night" (I think, anyway it was book I in his newest series), and thought it was alright. You could tell he got most of his ideas from history. The Eastern Empire, the caliphates (is that what he calls 'em?), the Sha Lug (which are the Mamluks), the Holy Empire, etc. But it was a descent read. Good enough for me to buy the second, anyway.

I lump it with the same category as Eragon.


A LotR clone to go with a Star Wars clone.

Terry Brooks is an average writer, just like Terry Goodkind and J.K. Rowling(just random examples). Some of their books are good, some suck out loud, but none of them are ever really great.

Sorry to disagree but "Wizard's First Rule" by Goodkind is great. (Not to mention there is a full length feature motion picture and mini-series currently being produced for the book)

True, but putting it into fantasy is something that really goes to him, and most other fantasy authors use him more for inspiration, rather than similar legends as he used.



Terry Goodkind? I mean, talk about a cheap, crappily written, and poorly done overall re-writing of the Wheel of Time series.

Terry Goodkind is thus far my least favourite fiction author.

To be honest, at least Terry knows when to stop writing. It took the death of the freaking writer to finally get some closure to the damn WoT series.

The first book isn't all that great, but his books get better after that. Voyage of the Jerle Shannara was actually really good. I recently read his book Armageddon's Children and that actually surprised me, it was very different from the early books, I quite enjoyed it.

However, Robert Jordan (RIP), the author of the Wheel of Time series, and Jacqueline Carey, author of the shorter Kushiel's Legacy series are both far better than Brooks.

It was originally written as a stand alone book. I rarely read Fantasy anymore, because of the mass prodiced trilogy.

Here's a fantasy book primer if you want to write one.

Book 1: Hard core group of individual have to get somewhere and do something to save the world. They wander around the world doing quirky side quests for everyone, even though their quest is vitally important, and these side quests are trivial. They collect enough plot coupons, the character who was written to die, dies in a soppy scene(the book is padded enough for the editors benefit) and they beat the dark lord.

The world is often completely illogical. For example, In a country full of axe wielding maniacs, who makes the food?

Book 2: Patsy weakling meets a strange old bloke. Old bloke is actually really important. Old bloke dies protecting stupid patsy weakling (often the patsy needs saving because he disobeyed the old bloke),but not before he has the chance to train the patsy weakling, and turn him in to an arse kicker. If the book is turned in to a mvoie, this makes a great montage scene. Think Team America, or Karate Kid. Patsy weakling has quirky adventures and side quests (collects plot coupons) and then kills the dark lord.

Dark Lord can be evil queen, king, lich king, wicked witch, the emperor, etc.

Science Fiction has much more original thought. And for me at least, the older I've got the more non fiction I read too.

I disagree. Sci-fi is just as unoriginal. Except instead of elves, dwarves and magic, you have aliens and far-out technology. The plotline either follows the same parameters as most fantasy plotlines, or it's just dripping in so much cynicism that it's almost pointless but is hailed as "a dark look at the reality of human nature" or similar tripe.

The vast majority of books written, no matter what genre, are crap. Same with music released and movies made.

I disagree. Sci-fi is just as unoriginal. Except instead of elves, dwarves and magic, you have aliens and far-out technology. The plotline either follows the same parameters as most fantasy plotlines, or it's just dripping in so much cynicism that it's almost pointless but is hailed as "a dark look at the reality of human nature" or similar tripe.
Indeed. I look forward with no particular anticipation to the day when writers who compose even relatively optimistic plots are hailed as revolutionaries who will revitalise a dying genre by dragging it out of the mud and shadows.

Similar things are continually happening in other media as well. Music for instance: in the early nineteenth century there was a trend away from Mozart's classicism to Wagner's romanticism because Mozart was perceived as superficial and too light; and in the early twentieth century, there was a trend back to Mozart's classicism (albeit altered due to the climate of the day) because Wagner was perceived as self-indulgent and too dark. -- Studying the subject, so it comes to mind. I recall a similar trend in film.

The vast majority of books written, no matter what genre, are crap. Same with music released and movies made.
This is also true.

I disagree. Sci-fi is just as unoriginal. Except instead of elves, dwarves and magic, you have aliens and far-out technology. The plotline either follows the same parameters as most fantasy plotlines, or it's just dripping in so much cynicism that it's almost pointless but is hailed as "a dark look at the reality of human nature" or similar tripe.

The vast majority of books written, no matter what genre, are crap. Same with music released and movies made.


Yeah I agree. If you read enough of any genre, and enough authors you'll find that they all follow, more or less the same pattern. Indeed wouldn't the word genre be meaningless without such patterns?

What do all of you think of Glen Cook's books? I read "Instrumentalities of Night" (I think, anyway it was book I in his newest series), and thought it was alright. You could tell he got most of his ideas from history. The Eastern Empire, the caliphates (is that what he calls 'em?), the Sha Lug (which are the Mamluks), the Holy Empire, etc. But it was a descent read. Good enough for me to buy the second, anyway.

I've read some of his earlier series, and mostly enjoyed them, but he does get a bit too gloomy (along the "everybody dies" line) sometimes...

Science Fiction has a lot more original thought than Fantasy as it has more scope.

You can have the traditional galaxy in peril, save the world stuff that fantasy does, like Peter F Hamilton's Judas Unchained and Pandora's Star.

You can have crime novels such as The Resurrected Man by Sean Williams.

Action adventure like Startide Rising by David Brin.

Heavy SF by people like Greg Bear.

I could go on, but wont. :)

Sorry to disagree but "Wizard's First Rule" by Goodkind is great. (Not to mention there is a full length feature motion picture and mini-series currently being produced for the book)
Wizard's First Rule was a fine book, but the sequel was basically the same book over again. Goodkind apparently ran out of ideas.

...and I can't shake the feeling that I'm reading an LOTR clone.

Quiz: Which story am I describing:

A mysterious magic-using figure appears in a sleepy little out-of-the way town to warn a young man about a terrible evil that's rising again. This evil was defeated before when the races united against it, but it is rising again to take over everything.

This young man, and one companion, leave the village with only the knowledge that they must reach a far away town in the woods where this mysterious magic user will rejoin them. He then leaves. They know their quest is ultimately to deny a powerful magic articaft from this terrible evil warlord, but until now they'd only heard of it in legend.

Along the way, they enlist the help of a man who is skilled in hunting and is a talented woodsman, and he joins them to help them reach their destination. They constantly have to elude scouts of the dark warlord that are searching for him.

Later in the journey, our hero finds himself unconscious and awakens in the town of their destination, where evenually the mysterious magic user rejoins him and presides over a multi-racial council to decide what to do next.

Question: Which story have I just described the first part of? (This is as far as I've gotten in SoS.)

Now I'm trying to decide if I really feel like finishing it. Anyone else read it?

i read it first in the early 70s. yes it was published on the coat tails of tolkins hobbit and ring. because BELIEVABLE, well even that close to believable, that self consistent, of fantasy, was something entirely new. certainly to american readers in the mid to late 60s.

it hadn't become formulaic yet, because there was only tolkin, and then eddings.

yes, i noticed the simularities, but also the differences. i thought the setting was a much lighter, greener, and more hopeful world that that of the ever downward spiral of moroseness of tolkin's none the less fascinating and diverse universe.

shannara was also a trillogy, and between rings and it, publishers started falling in love with multibook series in a big way, as a way to boost sales, and subsiquently insisted many writers streatch material that would have made one really good story, into a sequence of mediocher ones.

from which came the horses and swords 'high' fantasy formula that has since become so much of a cleche'.

but it wasn't that cleche' yet when the shannara series was written, so its more or less worth reading if only for that.

at least, i don't recall giant spiders as a plot bandaid device.

=^^=
.../\...

Robert Jordan: Finish it already. Each book covers less time, and gets thicker. By book 20 he'll be explaining the quantum fluctuation in Rand's brain, and it will be bigger than a University Level Quantum Theory Textbook. Stopped reading that at book 4 I think.

1: He's dead, he died a few months ago.

2: A number of books back (I jumped in recently, so I'm not sure when), he said that he was only going to write twelve books (not counting prequels, of which one currently exists, he was working on book twelve when he died), his wife (who has been his editor since page 1) was given explicit instruction by him on how the last book (what of it he left unfinished) should go, I don't doubt her writing in the least, am excited for it's release (even though it was scheduled for two years... before he died.)

3: I highly suggest you continue reading, yes, less time passes, but a lot still happens, he is juggling more, and more complex characters, and it is clear (to the educated mind) that he is not simply drawing it out... though you might want to take your time if you re-read, book eleven doesn't have an 'ending' so we're left with nothing until book twelve comes out... which will be a 2-300 page affair, but he 'took your advice' and is ending (as much as he can being dead) the series.

Also, WoT, best fantasy ever.

Well there's good news for you if you wanted that seried to finish... Robert Jordan is dead. Fortunately, he was working on the last book (#12) and the torch has been passed to another author to finish for him. Before he died, he met with the new guy and explained to him how it should happen.

That 'new guy' is actually his wife and son, but I'm pretty sure his wife is going to be author of the last one, which is fine with me, she has been his editor since page one, and I'm sure that after twenty years she has picked up his writing style :D.

Also, it is very clear that he has gone into the series with a very good idea of many of the things that are going to happen, I've only ever seen one time where he made a mistake, and it was a fairly minor detail, (the retelling of Marigan's escape differed from the original description). So no doubt not only has he told his wife all (and probably more) than she would've needed to know, she has all of his copious notes about the world and his plans to fall back on.

I am very confident, that in a gazillion years when it gets released it will be amazing.

Because you are. Never has another mass-market book been such a blatant copy previous work.

I never read it, but at university one of my professors (I was in a Speculative Fiction class) detailed all the ways in which the two are exactly the same, and then pointed out the cosmetic differences that prevent it from being a reprint of LotR.

Read the Wheel of Time series, then read the Sword of Truth series, and you will see that you might be mistaken....

Except Terry Goodkind doesn't write as well as Brooks... by a very, very long shot.

To be honest, at least Terry knows when to stop writing. It took the death of the freaking writer to finally get some closure to the damn WoT series.

Actually, a number of books ago RJ said that there would only be twelve in the series (not counting prequels, but only one of those got written). It is clear reading Wheel of Time that at some point there will be a definitive end, where the series will stop, I never got that impression at any point with the Sword of Truth.

Also, RJ's wife is finishing book twelve, the now last installment that I am aware of.

Wizard's First Rule was a fine book, but the sequel was basically the same book over again. Goodkind apparently ran out of ideas.

Yeah, he took Robert Jordan's.

Good lord I'd forgotten how much I love LOTR. It's been a while since I read them actually; however, I did buy a leather bound copy of the Hobbit for £5 in an independant bookshop in York. Should I;

a). Keep it for myself?
b). Give it to my dad as a birthday present?
c). Keep it for my children?

good fantasy, needs to be written by someone who never heard of christianity, islam, or any other form of western monotheism, but has gone for long walks in the woods by themselves and made frends with little furry invisible spirit people who live down by the creeks and back among the trees and up on top of the rocks.

and preferably never heard of swords or guns or cars or empires or warfare either.

=^^=
.../\...

Best bet is to get rid of them, and go find some Robin Hobb. Almost everything she's worked on has been extremely well written. Start with "Assassin's Apprentice" and work your way forward.

Good lord I'd forgotten how much I love LOTR. It's been a while since I read them actually; however, I did buy a leather bound copy of the Hobbit for £5 in an independant bookshop in York. Should I;

a). Keep it for myself?
b). Give it to my dad as a birthday present?
c). Keep it for my children?

C. Totally.

Actually, a number of books ago RJ said that there would only be twelve in the series (not counting prequels, but only one of those got written). It is clear reading Wheel of Time that at some point there will be a definitive end, where the series will stop, I never got that impression at any point with the Sword of Truth.

Also, RJ's wife is finishing book twelve, the now last installment that I am aware of.

That 'new guy' is actually his wife and son, but I'm pretty sure his wife is going to be author of the last one, which is fine with me, she has been his editor since page one, and I'm sure that after twenty years she has picked up his writing style :D.

Also, it is very clear that he has gone into the series with a very good idea of many of the things that are going to happen, I've only ever seen one time where he made a mistake, and it was a fairly minor detail, (the retelling of Marigan's escape differed from the original description). So no doubt not only has he told his wife all (and probably more) than she would've needed to know, she has all of his copious notes about the world and his plans to fall back on.

I am very confident, that in a gazillion years when it gets released it will be amazing.

Actually, Brandon Sanderson was chosen to finish the book.Wiki:A Memory of Light (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Memory_of_Light)

The WoT stories started well and went downhill fast IMO. The characters became caricatures. The series also was too incestuous. How come all the important characters know each other, before they became important.


Lets strap some half assed world cycle repeating, and Rand being the centre of the universe to justify bad writing.

Ive read "Elfstones of.."

Meh.

Not horrible, but it didnt make me went to read any others.

Yeah I agree. If you read enough of any genre, and enough authors you'll find that they all follow, more or less the same pattern. Indeed wouldn't the word genre be meaningless without such patterns?

sturgeon's first law: 9/10ths of everything is crap.
themnax's corrilary: the 1/10th does its damdest to make up for it.

in literature REAL science fiction actaully does a little better then 1/10th, while most other genre's do a little to a lot worse. mainstream probably worst of all.

and no, genre doesn't mean formulaization, it means a diversity of somethings for a diversity of intrests, instead of dumping it all into one gruel pot that gratifies nobody, except maybe mainstream literary critics, who also mostly gratify nobody.

=^^=
.../\...

The WoT stories started well and went downhill fast IMO. The characters became caricatures. The series also was too incestuous. How come all the important characters know each other, before they became important.


Lets strap some half assed world cycle repeating, and Rand being the centre of the universe to justify bad writing.

My only real problem with WoT is that it's a lot like a rehash of a certain Sci-Fi title we've all heard of. See if you can guess:

A young man is possessed of a power that enables him to fulfill prophecy by raising an army (mostly comprised of desert-dwellers) and conquering everything in sight. An organization of women with similar powers tries to stop him, then control him, and is ultimately forced to ally with him.

Answer: Dune

Which is understandable, since other famous storytellers have blatantly copied it. In the following narrative, which am I describing, Star Wars or Dune?

A young man grows up on a desert planet which is one of millions as part of a galactic empire. He has strange powers that none other have, which enable him to see into the future and to fight against the emperor. His sister also has this power .

My only real problem with WoT is that it's a lot like a rehash of a certain Sci-Fi title we've all heard of. See if you can guess:

A young man is possessed of a power that enables him to fulfill prophecy by raising an army (mostly comprised of desert-dwellers) and conquering everything in sight. An organization of women with similar powers tries to stop him, then control him, and is ultimately forced to ally with him.

Answer: Dune

Which is understandable, since other famous storytellers have blatantly copied it. In the following narrative, which am I describing, Star Wars or Dune?

A young man grows up on a desert planet which is one of millions as part of a galactic empire. He has strange powers that none other have, which enable him to see into the future and to fight against the emperor. His sister also has this power .
I wouldn't say they copied Dune. That storyline's been around more or less forever in mythologies and so on. To a certain extent you could parallell it to the story of Christ and a lot of others. When you boil them down there are only so many workable basic storylines that get re-used in different forms. Dune's no more original than the rest of them.

Diana Wynne Jones (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diana_Wynne_Jones) sends up the Fantasy genre's conventions very enjoyably in some of her books, espeically the 'Derkholm' series (Dark Lord of Derkholm (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_Lord_of_Derkholm) and Year of the Griffin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Year_of_the_Griffin)) and the "reference" book The Tough Guide to Fantasyland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Tough_Guide_To_Fantasyland)...