NationStates Jolt Archive

TORONTO -- Canada's foreign ministry said Saturday that it will rewrite a training manual used by Canadian diplomats that lists the United States as a site of possible torture following pressure from its closest ally.

The department document, released Friday, singled out the U.S. detention center at Guantanamo Bay. It also names Israel, Afghanistan, China, Egypt, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Mexico and Syria as places where inmates could face torture.

"I regret the embarrassment caused by the public disclosure of the manual used in the department's torture awareness training," Canada's Foreign Affairs Minister Maxime Bernier said in a statement issued Saturday.

"It contains a list that wrongly includes some of our closest allies. I have directed that the manual be reviewed and rewritten. The manual is neither a policy document nor a statement of policy. As such, it does not convey the government's views or positions," the statement added
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/01/19/AR2008011901711.html

I hope "rewrite" is diplomatic speak for changing the nations around, rather than dropping the mention alltogether.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/01/19/AR2008011901711.html

I hope "rewrite" is diplomatic speak for changing the nations around, rather than dropping the mention alltogether.

I don't see why anything should change. The U.S. engages in waterboarding. That's torture.

I don't see why anything should change. The U.S. engages in waterboarding. That's torture.Well, to be fair, the US isn't a "site" of torture, since Gitmo is in Cuba.

I don't see why anything should change. The U.S. engages in waterboarding. That's torture.


But it's not the bad kind, which involves removal of limbs and stuff like that.

Simply put, if what Americans do is torture, and what a tribal gang in Sierra Leone will do to you with a machete is torture, and what Al Queda will do to you with power tools is torture, then torture embraces too wide a realm of definition to be of any use.

Frankly, if I was kidnapped by a gang of terrorists, and assured that all that would happen was American style torture, I'd be grateful. I like having all ten fingers.

The word "torture" has dumbed down to mean "Any discomfort". Canada engages in torture, too. Are not the inhabitants of Canadian prisoners undergoing "freedom deprivation" even as we speak? Isn't that degrading and unpleasant? And it's coercive, too, unless the prisoners remain there voluntarily.

We need a new word, meaning "coercion through actual bodily harm". "Torture" doesn't serve the purpose any more.

but the US has stopped producing Friends episodes :p

This is a sad day for Canada.

SNIP

so because Timmy across the round tortures his dog more than you it makes it alright?

also:

tor·ture (tôr'chər) pronunciation
n.

1.
1. Infliction of severe physical pain as a means of punishment or coercion.
2. An instrument or a method for inflicting such pain.
2. Excruciating physical or mental pain; agony: the torture of waiting in suspense.
3. Something causing severe pain or anguish.

I think the dictionary is rather specific (http://www.answers.com/torture&r=67)

The word "torture" has dumbed down to mean "Any discomfort". Canada engages in torture, too. Are not the inhabitants of Canadian prisoners undergoing "freedom deprivation" even as we speak? Isn't that degrading and unpleasant? And it's coercive, too, unless the prisoners remain there voluntarily.

We need a new word, meaning "coercion through actual bodily harm". "Torture" doesn't serve the purpose any more.


Does Canada carry out anal rape of inmates, sensory deprivation, beatings, mock executions etc in a systematic and organised fashion?

I think the dictionary is rather specific
tor·ture (tôr'chər) pronunciation
n.

1.
1. Infliction of severe physical pain as a means of punishment or coercion.
2. An instrument or a method for inflicting such pain.
2. Excruciating physical or mental pain; agony: the torture of waiting in suspense.
3. Something causing severe pain or anguish.

So keeping prisoners who've been convicted of capital offences imprisoned on 'Death Row' for years, instead of executing them immediately after sentencing, also counts as "torture"?

So keeping prisoners who've been convicted of capital offences imprisoned on 'Death Row' for years, instead of executing them immediately after sentencing, also counts as "torture"?

Yes. Apparently, with the "waiting in suspense" clause, halting a TV series before the exciting conclusion is also torture. The Giants/Packers game was torture. In more ways than one.

You see? The word has been dumbed down to be useless. Any nation that keeps others in suspense commits torture!

I repeat: we need a new word.

So keeping prisoners who've been convicted of capital offences imprisoned on 'Death Row' for years, instead of executing them immediately after sentencing, also counts as "torture"?Not necessarily, but read "The Trial" by Franz Kafka. That's a pretty good example of torture by suspense.

Does Canada carry out anal rape of inmates, sensory deprivation, beatings, mock executions etc in a systematic and organised fashion?


Canada subjects prisoners to involuntary freedom deprivation, and it even KEEPS THEM IN SUSPENSE! And these are not spurious, unsupported allegations, or tales told by people with political agendas, these are even admitted to by Canadian authorities! Why, freedom deprivation is in fact a matter of public policy in Canada!

Oh, the horror.

My point. We either improve the definition, or stop getting so worked up over the word.

socialist ninny boys fear torture becasue they say its against human rights and its against the geneva convention. well the war on terrorism was not declared a war but a conflict by our democratic socialist congress meaning it does not abide to the laws of the geneva convention so as long as canada is not in a war it dosent really matter on how they torture

Canada subjects prisoners to involuntary freedom deprivation, and it even KEEPS THEM IN SUSPENSE! And these are not spurious, unsupported allegations, or tales told by people with political agendas, these are even admitted to by Canadian authorities! Why, freedom deprivation is in fact a matter of public policy in Canada!

Oh, the horror.

My point. We either improve the definition, or stop getting so worked up over the word.

How is it torture if a person who breaks the law is locked up behind bars for a set period of time? Especially if they are treated humanely, given three meals a day and they get free board? Under the Canadian penal system we don't have any form of hard labour or the death penalty, so how is it torture then?

If someone uses a gun to hurt or murder another and is locked up, who was the tortured one? The victim. Torture usually infers that there some sort of physical or mental abuse. Being locked up may seem like it but the person broke the law and is serving their time.

Canada subjects prisoners to involuntary freedom deprivation, and it even KEEPS THEM IN SUSPENSE! (.....)

You seem to be cherry picking criteria in order to try to negate the point. As the regimes inflicted by the countries listed include far more than the method you seem to have chosen as your straw to cling to, its a rather fruitless excercise on your part.

I ask again, does Canada carry out anal rape of inmates, sensory deprivation, beatings, mock executions etc in a systematic and organised fashion?

How is it torture if a person who breaks the law is locked up behind bars for a set period of time? Especially if they are treated humanely, given three meals a day and they get free board? Under the Canadian penal system we don't have any form of hard labour or the death penalty, so how is it torture then?

If someone uses a gun to hurt or murder another and is locked up, who was the tortured one? The victim. Torture usually infers that there some sort of physical or mental abuse. Being locked up may seem like it but the person broke the law and is serving their time.

No, Kryo. Those are good points, but you're falling into his trap.

He said that what the United States occasionally will do to certain prisoners is not torture because to make it torture would be to widen the range of the definition, which simply is not true.

Waterboarding involves extreme mental and emotional pain, the sort associated with one being forced to believe they are about to die. Waterboarding causes your body to instinctively believe it is drowning, which causes a serious panic reaction. Those who try to compare it certain hard experiences have absolutely no idea what they are talking about.

No, Kryo. Those are good points, but you're falling into his trap.

He said that what the United States occasionally will do to certain prisoners is not torture because to make it torture would be to widen the range of the definition, which simply is not true.

Waterboarding involves extreme mental and emotional pain, the sort associated with one being forced to believe they are about to die. Waterboarding causes your body to instinctively believe it is drowning, which causes a serious panic reaction. Those who try to compare it certain hard experiences have absolutely no idea what they are talking about.

Ah, ok. Thanks for that point. I didn't get what he was trying to say, since his definition of torture was totally wonky.

America isn't that bad for torture. The terrorist scum at Gitmo are treated better than most prisoners in the united states, and I hardly care if some guy who wants to destroy the west is persuaded to give up his terrorist buddies by getting some water poured on him.

The U.S doesn't torture. They ship people elsewhere to be tortured, like the Canadian mayor they shipped to syria where he was beaten with pipes and shit like that. The U.S outsources torture

I'm quite disappointed in my government for allowing itself to be bullied into obscuring the truth, as much as I am disappointed in the American government for insisting that the truth be obscured to begin with. Of course, that does seem to be their specialty these days.

There is a big difference between waterboarding and the shit like they used to do in europe like peeling skin off your face or tying you to a wheel and letting buzzards eat you alive.

That said, waterboarding seems like a very good way to break someone's will without actually hurting them (physically). But it seems to be very horrifying to experience and really should not be done ever.

The CIA should just stick to their other interrogation tactics like stripping people necked to humiliate them and putting them in isolation cells for days at a time to make them forget what they are doing. Or maybe the CIA should just stop fucking with people and leave the rest of the world alone. Who are they helping? Really?

I don't see why anything should change. The U.S. engages in waterboarding. That's torture.

But as far as I know we're careful only to do it in other countries. While we may be a practitioner of torture, we're not a site of torture.

Just like nowhere in the US have we bombed Iran in order to get them to do something that we consider to be an act of war so we can claim that they started it. We've done it in Iran, but not in the US.

There is a big difference between waterboarding and the shit like they used to do in europe like peeling skin off your face or tying you to a wheel and letting buzzards eat you alive.

That said, waterboarding seems like a very good way to break someone's will without actually hurting them (physically). But it seems to be very horrifying to experience and really should not be done ever.

The CIA should just stick to their other interrogation tactics like stripping people necked to humiliate them and putting them in isolation cells for days at a time to make them forget what they are doing. Or maybe the CIA should just stop fucking with people and leave the rest of the world alone. Who are they helping? Really?

We executed Japanese officers for waterboarding American prisoners in WWII.

The conservative government is made of EPIC PHAIL.

Their cowardly way of trying to obfuscate reality is a tacit support to the immoral practices of some of our allies. Torture goes against every human rights chart ever written. Habeas corpus ought to be considered sacrosanct.

The sheer hypocrisy behind this is maddening.

I don't remember who this quote is from, but is seems like the circumstances warrant it be repeated: "When fighting monsters, one has to be careful not to become one himself in the process".

Torture is monstrous, period. To turn a blind eye to it when it's our allies who engaged in it, while at the same time condemning it when it is our enemies who does, fills me with shame.

The Harper administration will never, ever get a vote from me.

but the US has stopped producing Friends episodes :p

Which is exactly why Canada is removing the United States.


But it's not the bad kind, which involves removal of limbs and stuff like that.....

Agreed with your post 100%.

Oh fuck...

Besides CIA tortures, USA is a basically third world country when it comes to its jails. With authorities doing nothing on endemic inmate on inmate rapes.

:(

"Today, waterboarding is considered to be torture by a wide range of authorities, including legal experts,[4][7] politicians,[8] war veterans,[9][10] intelligence officials,[56] military judges,[12] and human rights organizations.[13][14] "

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waterboarding#Classification_as_torture

Who cares if it isn't the "bad kind" of torture. Torture is still torture, no matter how bad.

"Although waterboarding can be performed in ways that leave no lasting physical damage, it carries the risks of extreme pain, damage to the lungs, brain damage caused by oxygen deprivation, injuries (including broken bones) due to struggling against restraints, and even death.[4] The psychological effects on victims of waterboarding can last for years after the procedure.[5]"

Yeah... It doesn't hurt them physically.. right.

We executed Japanese officers for waterboarding American prisoners in WWII.

link/source (not that I disbelieve you, but for future use)

Rewrite it, eh? So, I guess 'torture' will now read as Temporary Amenity Withdrawal? :D

link/source (not that I disbelieve you, but for future use)


After World War II, we convicted several Japanese soldiers for waterboarding American and Allied prisoners of war. At the trial of his captors, then-Lt. Chase J. Nielsen, one of the 1942 Army Air Forces officers who flew in the Doolittle Raid and was captured by the Japanese, testified: "I was given several types of torture. . . . I was given what they call the water cure." He was asked what he felt when the Japanese soldiers poured the water. "Well, I felt more or less like I was drowning," he replied, "just gasping between life and death."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/11/02/AR2007110201170.html

Yay! Harper Admin! Thank you for giving Canada's balls to the US! We never needed them anyways!

Well, to be fair, the US isn't a "site" of torture, since Gitmo is in Cuba.

Gitmo (indeed, all US millitary bases) is considered US territory.

socialist ninny boys fear torture becasue they say its against human rights and its against the geneva convention. well the war on terrorism was not declared a war but a conflict by our democratic socialist congress meaning it does not abide to the laws of the geneva convention so as long as canada is not in a war it dosent really matter on how they torture

You cannot seriously believe what you're saying. The Geneva Convention is perfectly usable in the "war on terror". I'd especially like you to read section three of the geneva convention regarding prisoners of war, section 4.1.2; it specifically names resistance groups as groups protected by the Geneva Conventions. It also mentions that all nations that have signed the Geneva conventions are REQUIRED to uphold that standard, and both the United States and Iraq formally signed the fourth Geneva Convention, which is of course the section that explicitly describes how to treat prisoners of WAR.

socialist ninny boys fear torture becasue they say its against human rights and its against the geneva convention. well the war on terrorism was not declared a war but a conflict by our democratic socialist congress meaning it does not abide to the laws of the geneva convention so as long as canada is not in a war it dosent really matter on how they torture

Are you a really unfunny troll, a puppet that one of the usual neocon bigmouths is using to get around a forumban, or just a miserable excuse for a human being?

Are you a really unfunny troll, a puppet that one of the usual neocon bigmouths is using to get around a forumban, or just a miserable excuse for a human being?

All three, I'd suppose.

It's nice to know that Canada still is, and will always be, our bitch.

It's nice to know that Canada still is, and will always be, our bitch.

Except that we're not. Stephen Harper is.

According to the radio, there was some dispute about Israel being on that list also.

Except that we're not. Stephen Harper is.

Oh yes you are. It's been that way for a long, long time.

Oh yes you are. It's been that way for a long, long time.

Actually... nope.

You guys are nothing without us. Nothing!

bah.

Actually... nope.

You guys are nothing without us. Nothing!

Rite.

I don't remember who this quote is from, but is seems like the circumstances warrant it be repeated: "When fighting monsters, one has to be careful not to become one himself in the process".

Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And when you look long into an abyss, the abyss also looks into you

Nietzsche - a real life version of The Sphinx.

[The Sphinx: Your temper is very quick, my friend. But until you learn to master your rage...
Mr. Furious: ...your rage will become your master? That's what you were going to say. Right? Right?
The Sphinx: Not necessarily.

Nietzsche - a real life version of The Sphinx.

Thanks for looking it up and indulging my lazy ass. I'm rather satisfied of having quoted it without distorting it too much.

Yay! Harper Admin! Thank you for giving Canada's balls to the US! We never needed them anyways!
I'm still convinced he only got votes because he told the homophobes he would get rid of gay marriage.

Oh yes you are. It's been that way for a long, long time.
No, we are bigger and we are on top.

No, we are bigger and we are on top.

We're thicker, longer, and on the bottom.

Thanks for looking it up and indulging my lazy ass. I'm rather satisfied of having quoted it without distorting it too much.

I'm a stickler for accuracy, lest accuracy stickles me.

Having said that, I can't remember where I read this but it rang true - the problem with Canada is that they're better at expressing what they aren't than what they are, who they're not rather than who they are.

Canada is stuck trying to differentiate themselves from the Americans, it seems to be their sole purpose in life, yet when it comes down to it, they have to admit that they are bound to America.

I hate my country.

Canada should have kept us on there.

Actually, I would have been happier if we could have removed the name in good conscience.

I hate my country.

Canada should have kept us on there.

According to the radio, there was some dispute about Israel being on that list also.

..which is funny, given the fact torture is legal in Israel under certain circumstances. Bit of trying to have ones cake and eat it there, I reckon.

I suggest an alternate technique. First, play recordings of distant screams in the prisoner block. Have the guards make jokes about waterboarding or other techniques that the Americans have used in the past. This will weaken the wills of the terrorists. Also, before a big interrogation, declare movie night. Show one of the Saw movies.

Finally, get the scariest drill sergeant who speaks the subject's language you can find to do the actual interrogation. The subject should break. Just make sure that you have some fresh underwear for him.

Yes. Apparently, with the "waiting in suspense" clause, halting a TV series before the exciting conclusion is also torture. The Giants/Packers game was torture. In more ways than one.
It's not a clause, it's an example of the word in use. Also, lrn2recognise hyperbole.

You see? The word has been dumbed down to be useless. Any nation that keeps others in suspense commits torture!

I repeat: we need a new word.

No, we don't.

Having said that, I can't remember where I read this but it rang true - the problem with Canada is that they're better at expressing what they aren't than what they are, who they're not rather than who they are.

Old joke: originally they were just going to be called "Not the United States", but they decided they needed a better name for the country. So the cabinet dumped out a Scrabble set on the table, and started picking letters.
The Prime Minister said, "I've got a C, ay?"
Another minister said, "I've got an N, ay?"
Another one said, "I've got a D, ay?"

I suggest an alternate technique. First, play recordings of distant screams in the prisoner block. Have the guards make jokes about waterboarding or other techniques that the Americans have used in the past. This will weaken the wills of the terrorists. Also, before a big interrogation, declare movie night. Show one of the Saw movies.

Finally, get the scariest drill sergeant who speaks the subject's language you can find to do the actual interrogation. The subject should break. Just make sure that you have some fresh underwear for him.

Sounds workable to me... :D

I'm American, and I believe every single nation in the world should be clear on one very simple reality:

America does torture.

It's fucking sick, depraved, wrong, and goes against everything this country should stand for. But that hasn't stopped it.

It is a stain on our history that will never go away. I am deeply and profoundly ashamed of it. But that doesn't mean it didn't happen. That doesn't mean it's not still happening.

I hope that some day there is a nation strong enough and honorable enough to make sure that those responsible will be put on trial for war crimes, crimes against humanity, or anything else you can possibly come up with. Make shit up if you like. Just please, put the sick fucks in jail. They are evil.

Just please, put the sick fucks in jail. They are evil.
Naked, in solitary, with 24-hour lights, and no blankets or reading materials?

How is it torture if a person who breaks the law is locked up behind bars for a set period of time? Especially if they are treated humanely, given three meals a day and they get free board? Under the Canadian penal system we don't have any form of hard labour or the death penalty, so how is it torture then?

If someone uses a gun to hurt or murder another and is locked up, who was the tortured one? The victim. Torture usually infers that there some sort of physical or mental abuse. Being locked up may seem like it but the person broke the law and is serving their time.

That is why in Canada it is better to live in prison then on the street. Especially since if you live on the street they can't exactly send you welfare.

It's nice to know that Canada still is, and will always be, our bitch.

*refuses to bow down to Americans*
Funny fact:
Average IQ of Canada: 97
Average IQ of Americans: 98
Yet if you mention beaver tails (really good) they think we eat the actual tails.

I'm still convinced he only got votes because he told the homophobes he would get rid of gay marriage.

No, we are bigger and we are on top.

Actually it is the people in the Maritimes and the people who make lots of cash.

I was told when I was younger to vote NDP when I'm in post-secondary and when I'm old and vote conservative when you're niether. I was also told the Liberals were crooks. Don't believe everything your parents say, that's the lesson.

I'm a stickler for accuracy, lest accuracy stickles me.

Having said that, I can't remember where I read this but it rang true - the problem with Canada is that they're better at expressing what they aren't than what they are, who they're not rather than who they are.

Canada is stuck trying to differentiate themselves from the Americans, it seems to be their sole purpose in life, yet when it comes down to it, they have to admit that they are bound to America.

Well, who else are we going to be bound by. We face various Oceans on all fronts, except the US. We're boneless pacifists, we need to latch onto a country who will nuke them when we can't.

Old joke: originally they were just going to be called "Not the United States", but they decided they needed a better name for the country. So the cabinet dumped out a Scrabble set on the table, and started picking letters.
The Prime Minister said, "I've got a C, ay?"
Another minister said, "I've got an N, ay?"
Another one said, "I've got a D, ay?"

Actually, it comes from Kanata, the aboriginal word for 'village' or 'land'. Something like that.

link/source (not that I disbelieve you, but for future use)

Here. (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/11/02/AR2007110201170_pf.html)

Also look up Chinsaku Yuki