NationStates Jolt Archive

Just out of curiosity, have you eer converted from anything to anything in your life? If yes, from what to what? Just once, or several times?

And if yes, what made you converse?

In my case, I was raised Catholic, went to Catholic school and thought of myself as Catholic until I was well into my 20s. Although that was more out of habit than anything else.
When I actually started thinking about it, I discovered that I was more of an agnostic, and had been for most of my life. Then, after coming here and discussing with Christians, listening to what they had to say and reading into the bible a good bit, I found that I actually do not belief in god and ought to stop thinking of myself as agnostic, as I was clearly atheist.

So let's hear your story.

Errmm.. I converted froma football jock to a debate/Hi Q team member?

Both. from Roman Catholic to agnostic when I was 11, I think. Then back from agnostic to Roman Catholic when I was 17 or something. Now I don't care. :D

Just out of curiosity, have you eer converted from anything to anything in your life? If yes, from what to what? Just once, or several times?

So let's hear your story.

I was originally roman Catholic, though not practicing, after last year, i introduced my self to the muslim faith, and now i read the bible, koran and hadiths, so i'm half and half, i simply have my own personal faith where i wedge in Judaisim, Christanity, and Islam, with Islam the most dominant

Raised Catholic, joined the dark side when I actually put some serious thought into the whole god thing. And I heard they had cookies.

Tough one. After a little thought, I'll have to say, no, I was never converted from something to something else. I've changed "hats" a few times, but looking back on my choices, I realize that I was not changing the way I thought/believed, but looking for a good way to express what I've always thought/believed. I wasn't raised to be any particular thing. Plus I have never officially joined any group (except for a brief stint as a Girl Scout and a current membership in a professional artists' association, but I don't think they count, since neither asked me to believe any credo), so there was never anything for me to leave or anything else for me to join.

So, I'll say no, I've never converted. I've just been coasting along in my own little track all this time. :)

Went to a C of E school and got the whole religion thing shoved down my throat there (In a way that is slightly different to things being shoved down throats in Catholic schools).
However my family is Violently atheistic, and I follow suit. I've always known all religion to be full of crap.

I selected "from being religious to atheist" in the poll. Translate that as "from being Lutheran to I-don't-know-what, but it has nothing to do with the church. And I might go back, given enough time."

I wouldn't say I ever converted, I don't remember ever believing in the first place. I came to realise my thoughts on Christianity (where I had been taken to church, Catholic specifically) and stopped going after a while.

I converted from Democrat to Republican to Libertarian. Why? Real life demonstrates that the big government policies of the Democrats and Republicans can never do more than encourage mediocrity.

I don't know if it counts as converting and if so which direction to pick in the poll...

As a teenager I used to go to a charismatic church once a week to get all hyped up about the holy spirit and all that but the rest of the week I ignored God. Then I went on a mission tour and spent 10 days straight with the other youths from church. While the others told people about their personal relationships with God and how much their faith meant in their lives I realized I couldn't "be Christian" for 10 days straight. For them it was a lifestyle, their faith actually meant something and gave them strength to make the best of difficult periods. For me it was just a spiritual experience once a week.

After that I only go to church maybe once every other moth at most but I pray at home instead, do my best to actually act according to my ideals and draw strength from my faith when I would otherwise have given up.

When i was younger my headmaster had the younger say 4-11 year olds sing some Christian song once a week as part of assembly, i loved the singing thing, didn't understand what i was singing about,. I remember when asked at about 10 what do you think happens to you after you die, i said something like "after you die whatever happens to you, you decide".
So i never was interested in the whole Christian thing, there was alot of atheist feeling in my school and christians were viewed as suspects and wierd, but whenever horoscopes were mentioned the Women loved going over them, i thought that was pretty hypocritical of them.
Anyway i chose the no, i've always stuck with believing in nothing, as it would be better once you die to have nothing happen than to be tormented in Hell or praised in Heaven, just silence. I realise there are some good theist arguments and atheist arguments so i stuck with not being entirely sure. Hope that answers your question.

Jewish -> Pastafarian

They had a nicer heaven.

Wasn't raised as anything (and rightly so) and after putting thought into it became an atheist, despite attempted indoctrination at school.

Christan all my life

raised agnostic/apathetic/nominally "Church of England" like most people in the UK, became an almost militant atheist as a young teen, then became a Neopagan.

I was raised agnostic. But as I got older I really wanted there to be something, so I kept looking. I looked at Judaism and kept on looking. I looked at Mormons - no go. I looked at Evangelical Christianity - really no go. I looked at Catholicism, that was a starter but not a finisher. I looked at Paganism and got as far as a first level priestess/teacher and realized that no matter where I looked, I was still an agnostic bordering on atheist. I have never been able to suspend disbelief long enought to lose my mind.

From agnostic to gnostic. I also quite often convert from .doc to .txt and from Windows 1250 to Mac, but I guess it doesn't count.

From being a not really very into it Christian to a follower of my own religion to an agnostic atheist.
I don't believe in God, but I accept that I cannot be sure - so it's a lack of belief rather than a belief in a lack.

I do, however, hold science in the regard a theist would a god, and I do actively reject the idea of a classical God as described in the Bible as being logically inconsistent.

WHOOOO! CHURCH OF GOD!!!!! AMEN!!! Jesus is pretty cool if you actually meet him, in that case, I HAVE. WOOOOO! But yes, once you go COG, you never go anywhere else; because, well, we're just fun like that.


Sidenote: We are pentecostal. If you don't know what that is, we're the church that everyone calls crazy, we speak in other tongues, and we sing with instruments, and we like to sing! HAHA!

Went to a C of E school and got the whole religion thing shoved down my throat there (In a way that is slightly different to things being shoved down throats in Catholic schools).
However my family is Violently atheistic, and I follow suit. I've always known all religion to be full of crap.

I don't recall ever having anything religious shoved down my throat in any of the two C of E schools I went to... though I know it can be different for everyone :P

The household I grew up in was split by religion; my C of E grandmother and my two almost militant atheist parents, so it wasn't until my grandmother died that I eventually became a full blown atheist, which was spurred on by secondary school education (which in my experience was incredibly atheistic), now I'm an agnostic/protestant/not really sure...i'd rather, tbh, that everyone just shut the hell up about religion (including religious people), and everyone, atheists, christians, muslims, even scientologists just stfu and keep it to themselves, im tired of hearing if you love/hate/whatever religion.

What's "Paganism"? Wicca?

I'm a Hindu, raised a Hindu, always been one.

Yes, Wicca - for what it's worth, which isn't much more than any other religion.

I looked at Paganism and got as far as a first level priestess/teacher

What's "Paganism"? Wicca?

I'm a Hindu, raised a Hindu, always been one.

Yes, Wicca - for what it's worth, which isn't much more than any other religion.

Oh, okay. I was just a bit confused, since the term could mean any religion apart from Christianity. :)

Yes: Most recently, I converted .wav to .aif, and then to .mp3.

I have also performed some more daring conversions, such as .psd to .png, and .sib to .pdf, and .doc to .eps, and so on and so forth.

Politically, moved from left-wing Democrat to centrist Independent.

Religiously, I have become more observant over the years. I was raised a Reform Jew, but I'm now Conservative, and I may go modern Orthodox in the future.

Raised implicit atheist/agnostic. Had a series of mystical experiences during my late teens and early twenties. Now I am someone who knows that there is something, and the word 'god' sort of fits.

I have indeed been "converted".

When I was little, I used to be Christian. Then I stopped believing when I was 15 and went to atheism, then a friend converted me to Pastafarianism and I've been a Pastafarian ever since. :)

Hail our noodly master!

When I was little, I used to be Christian. Then I stopped believing when I was 15 and went to atheism, then a friend converted me to Pastafarianism and I've been a Pastafarian ever since. :)

Hail our noodly master!

Isn't Pastafarianism just a joke religion?

Well I have never been converted, but I have converted a couple Roman Catholics into Protestants.

I was originally roman Catholic, though not practicing, after last year, i introduced my self to the muslim faith, and now i read the bible, koran and hadiths, so i'm half and half, i simply have my own personal faith where i wedge in Judaisim, Christanity, and Islam, with Islam the most dominant

Well aren't the three very much alike? Abraham is the father of all three religions, and they are all monotheistic. With the exception of Jesus and the Trinity the three have alot in common. Except for the few muslim extremists who believe Allah wants all the Jews and Christians to die. But then for what I've heard those guys are just really misinterpereting the Koran.

Once a good Catholic boy. Did the alter boy thing and even considered the Priesthood.

Now I am an agnostic. Reasons ranging from other "followers" annoying to the hypocrisy of the Church over the sex abuse scandals.

Once a good Catholic boy. Did the alter boy thing and even considered the Priesthood.

Now I am an agnostic. Reasons ranging from other "followers" annoying to the hypocrisy of the Church over the sex abuse scandals.

Well maybe you can explain something to me. Do agnostics belive in God? I enjoy studing various religions and know very little about agnosticism.

Well aren't the three very much alike? Abraham is the father of all three religions, and they are all monotheistic. With the exception of Jesus and the Trinity the three have alot in common. Except for the few muslim extremists who believe Allah wants all the Jews and Christians to die. But then for what I've heard those guys are just really misinterpereting the Koran.

yes,but i am ironing out the differences, in hope for peace in the holy land, and that wasnt a joke

Isn't Pastafarianism just a joke religion?How's a joke religion worse than a real religion?

Well maybe you can explain something to me. Do agnostics belive in God? I enjoy studing various religions and know very little about agnosticism.

Somehow I posted a reponse in the wrong thread!

Basically, I can't prove an afterlife so there is no reason to believe it. However, I can't dismiss it simply because I can't disprove it.

The wiki will probably give you more information you would like:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnostic

As far as my faith I've always followed Christ's teching to the best of my abilities. But as for politics, I went from rabid Republican to hating the two party sysem.

I was originally roman Catholic, though not practicing, after last year, i introduced my self to the muslim faith, and now i read the bible, koran and hadiths, so i'm half and half, i simply have my own personal faith where i wedge in Judaisim, Christanity, and Islam, with Islam the most dominant

Synthesized Christianity and Islam? I considered that too for a while, though the problems in the Quran were to great for me.

Somehow I posted a reponse in the wrong thread!

Basically, I can't prove an afterlife so there is no reason to believe it. However, I can't dismiss it simply because I can't disprove it.

The wiki will probably give you more information you would like:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnostic

Thank you

I went from Catholicism to becoming an atheist at ten, then became Catholic again at age 18, then became a deist at age 20.

Politically, I went from being a hardcore conservative, to becoming a Republitarian, then becoming an anarcho-capitalist.

Synthesized Christianity and Islam? I considered that too for a while, though the problems in the Quran were to great for me.

nah, there were several christain groups that held similiar ideas with the Koran, but by now they all died out

nah, there were several christain groups that held similiar ideas with the Koran, but by now they all died out

Oh yes, I was more referring to Suras 66 and 111, which bothered the crap out of me.

Raised Christian, went to Athiesm for a bit, then converted to Sufi Islam about two years ago.

Yes, I've converted.

I once liked Pizza Hut; no longer. Now it's Papa John's or Domino's.

WHOOOO! CHURCH OF GOD!!!!! AMEN!!! Jesus is pretty cool if you actually meet him, in that case, I HAVE. WOOOOO! But yes, once you go COG, you never go anywhere else; because, well, we're just fun like that.


Sidenote: We are pentecostal. If you don't know what that is, we're the church that everyone calls crazy, we speak in other tongues, and we sing with instruments, and we like to sing! HAHA!

Can anyone translate this into sane english for me? Cheers.

WHOOOO! CHURCH OF GOD!!!!! AMEN!!! Jesus is pretty cool if you actually meet him, in that case, I HAVE. WOOOOO! But yes, once you go COG, you never go anywhere else; because, well, we're just fun like that.


Sidenote: We are pentecostal. If you don't know what that is, we're the church that everyone calls crazy, we speak in other tongues, and we sing with instruments, and we like to sing! HAHA!

I went to a Pentecostal Church once. They scare me. I really thought someone was going to get hurt - like me.

Can anyone translate this into sane english for me? Cheers.

He is enthusiastic about Jesus and his church...VERY enthusiastic.

Can anyone translate this into sane english for me? Cheers.

"Church of God is good. Jesus is pretty cool, if you meet him and i have. Hooray. Once you go to Cog you don't go anywhere else because, we're fun like that."(Cog being,http://www.thecog.org.uk/ i think. Market research)
"We are the Pentecostal church, the one everyone calls crazy, we speak in other languages, we sing with other instruments and we like to sing."
(Pentecostal church being,http://www.elim.org.uk/ i think.)
Hope that sorts it.

I haven't really converted from one religion to another.

But I have gone from a somewhat orthodox Muslims to a non-orthodox Muslim.

I was raised Christian in a non-denominational sense, went to a Christian school and so forth. However, nobody really shoved anything down my throat. My parents and teachers were always honest with me about what they believed, even when it was hard. They didn't gloss over difficult parts of the Bible, ignore apparent contradictions, get hung up on trivia, or push any particular denomination. When they didn't know something or couldn't answer a question, they just said so instead of making something up or quoting catechism to soothe my nerves. They didn't try to blind me to the fact that there were other belief systems out there, or demonize those who practiced them.

When I got a chance to get out and see the rest of the world more thoroughly, I considered what I'd been raised to believe, compared Christianity to the alternatives, got to know more people who didn't believe in Jesus and tried to understand their motivations. I decided to stay put; I didn't see the answers I needed outside, just circular questions.

I will be the first to admit that I sometimes don't fit as well as others in the more Charismatic Christian groups, but that's more a consequence of my personality than anything else. We still believe the same basic things, but express it in different ways.

I have converted from miscreant to wacko. :)

Isn't Pastafarianism just a joke religion?Aren't they all ;)

After 9/11 I realized how the world really works and became an atheist.

Yes, Wicca - for what it's worth, which isn't much more than any other religion.

Pagan covers a hell of a lot more than Wicca, just like Christian covers a hell of a lot more than Baptist.

I don't think of it as coverting, to be honest; I regard my religion as extremely fluid. I, as a person, am constantly evolving - and my religious beliefs evolve with me.

I was raised Irish Catholic. I converted to Wicca in my teens, and explored various pagan religions for about six years. I briefly considered Islam, as well as Buddhism. My SO is Russian Orthodox, and I celebrate religious holidays with him happily, having converted mostly back to Christianity, though with countless, countless other influences.

If I *have* to define my religion, I'd say Christian. So I guess, after everything, I've found my way back.

Yes, Wicca - for what it's worth, which isn't much more than any other religion.

Paganism covers a heck of a lot more than Wicca, you know. I was pagan, but not Wiccan, for years.

Edit:

Pagan covers a hell of a lot more than Wicca, just like Christian covers a hell of a lot more than Baptist.

Aww, damn. Beat me to it. Almost word for word, too. ;)

Yes: Most recently, I converted .wav to .aif, and then to .mp3.

I have also performed some more daring conversions, such as .psd to .png, and .sib to .pdf, and .doc to .eps, and so on and so forth.

:p /threadwin

where does raised catholic as in going to a catholic school but never went to church but never was religious and then became atheist fit?

Yes, I've converted.

I once liked Pizza Hut; no longer. Now it's Papa John's or Domino's.

Oh I boycotted Domino's over the operation rescue feller.

Papa John's is ok but they are better your way.

Pizza Hut *tries not to barf* I used to like them till I was working late one night and drove by one to see them unload pre-made pizza sans toppings.

Went from kind of Christian, to kind of Agnostic, to Muslim, back to Christian. Most of that change happened with in a two year period. Boy life was fun.

I was a borderline jew for many years, and 9/11 was the final straw that pushed me into atheism.

I'm really not sure how to answer this. I was essentially raised agnostic -- I'm pretty sure my dad (raised, as he says, as a member of both of Iowa's biggest religions: Lutheranism and basketball) is completely atheist, and my mom went from Catholic to only believing in an impersonal life force. I usually call myself an atheist, but I've been sort of arranging my own ethical philosophy, which I guess boils down to "do whatever you want as long as you don't hurt anyone". However, since that sort of thing isn't provable or disprovable, I think it can only be accurately termed faith. So does that count as an "atheist religion"?

1) Christian: Ages ? - 11, 12 - 12 (only for a couple of months)
........*Baptist: Ages ? - 11
........*Episcopalian: Ages 11 - 12

2) Agnostic: Ages 12 - 12 (only a couple of days)

3) Non-spiritual Atheist: Ages 11 - 12, 12 - 12 (all together, probably 5 months)

4) Muslim: Ages 12 - 13
........*Sunni: Ages 12 - 13
........*Shia: Ages 13 - 13 (only for 2 months)

5) Hindu: Age 14
........*Hare Krishna: From April to May
........*Vaishnava: From May to October/a couple of weeks in December
........*Shaiva Siddhanta/Kalikula Shakta: From October to December

6) Atheistic Buddhist: Ages 14 - ?
.......*Theravadin: Ages 14 - 14 (only for a couple of weeks)
.......*Zen: Ages 14 - ?


















yep.

I converted from being a Bellicheat/Patriot Fan.. To wishing their plane crashes and burns. ;)

When I was little, I used to be Christian. Then I stopped believing when I was 15 and went to atheism, then a friend converted me to Pastafarianism and I've been a Pastafarian ever since. :)

Hail our noodly master!

May you be touched by his noodly appendage.

Isn't Pastafarianism just a joke religion?

no, the FSM is very much real.

How's a joke religion worse than a real religion?

it's not. it's better.

Roman Catholicism (european style) -> implicit atheism -> explicit a-abrahamic-theism -> UBism

I was a borderline jew for many years, and 9/11 was the final straw that pushed me into atheism.what a rubbish :rolleyes:

I converted from being a social-democrat with a pretty naive view of the world in college to now being a Marxist-Leninist.

I converted from being a social-democrat with a pretty naive view of the world in college to now being a Marxist-Leninist.your naivety increased?

your naivety increased?

Decreased actually, being an ML makes you all the more cynical and practical about politics and political organization, I doubt you've actually read Lenin to know how practical and pragmatic it actually is. I rejected the petty idealism of the modern 'left' because they are a bunch of over-excited naive liberals with absolutely no idea what they think politically. This was my own experience from being a member of Young Labor here in Australia for a little over a year.

Wow, what a complication.

Let's go timeline.

For most of my life my parents have been rather "we don't care", only ever doing religious things for special ocasions, and even then I got out of most of them. Like Church at Easter, only when my grandmother was by.
Deeply religious (As in strongly believing in Creationisim is normal for her) grandmother on my mother's side who is Catholic, and just as deeply religious Anglican grandmother on my father's side who is kind of not deep into the following. Both trying, still, to drag me to their side of the religious spectrum. One being an English and one being a French family, both set in their ways, does not help matters.

So until about high school I was an uncaring atheist, with people trying to pull me into two different ways of Christianity.

And then I decided to adopt a religion. Lots of reasons why, a big one being for laughs, but plent of serious ones too.

So I spent about a year researching every religion I could find, most of them quite deeply. Crazy things like Scientology were thrown out quickly, some were held on longer. After about a year I came to two choices I liked equally. Islam, and what I am now. Another four months of deep thought brought me to the idea that I needed to decide what a religion is to be able to pick. And in those four months I decided that what a religion was is a human psychological quirk whereas we use it as a systematic way of showing our respect, and gaining understanding of ourselves, through and for the laws which the universe works. Laws we know, laws we don't know, theories, and so on, it's all pyhsics. So my choice ended in a science debate with myself. Do I believe in a single unified theory that ties all things (relativisim, newtonian physics, and so on) together? The answer ended up as no, and thus I didn't go with Islam, as I tied monotheisim with said theory. If anyone can prove to me such a theory exists, Islam can have me.

So in short. Atheist to polytheist. I don't lable myself as pagan because of the social connotations of hippy moron, and the connections with Wicca which I have grown to despise not for reasons of itself but because of the "Wiccans" I have met. Defintly don't use neopagan as that's twice as bad as pagan. So polytheist. Unless I want to make a contrastive point like "I'm the only militant, totalitarian, asshole pagan you'll ever meet who admits it".

Yes. My conversion story is very complex.


You see I used to prefer mountain dew. Now my favourite is Vault. I feel I've turned my back on an old friend :(

I don't need to know what Lenin wrote. I know what he did.
Exactly.

“An ounce of action is worth a ton of theory.” Engels

I am proud of the great revolutionary class struggle of the Bolsheviks under comrades Lenin and Stalin.

Decreased actually, being an ML makes you all the more cynical and practical about politics and political organization, I doubt you've actually read Lenin to know how practical and pragmatic it actually is. I rejected the petty idealism of the modern 'left' because they are a bunch of over-excited naive liberals with absolutely no idea what they think politically. This was my own experience from being a member of Young Labor here in Australia for a little over a year.I don't need to know what Lenin wrote. I know what he did.

I was a borderline jew for many years, and 9/11 was the final straw that pushed me into atheism.

So are you telling us that the death of over 6,000,000 of your own people back in the early 1900's didn't even touch your faith?

I was raised Presbyterian, went away from while in the military due to the pervasiveness of the annoying and brainless "born again" culture that was widespread there. Became interested in Science, Zen, and Taoism at various times.

Now I'm back to being a Christian, although one who believes in evolution, and who believes that all of the major religions are valid, and contain some truth, with a lot of cultural and ritual stuff added on. They can all lead to God/Enlightenment/Nirvana/whatever, it's just a matter of finding the one that suits you.

I was raised Presbyterian, went away from while in the military due to the pervasiveness of the annoying and brainless "born again" culture that was widespread there. Became interested in Science, Zen, and Taoism at various times.

Now I'm back to being a Christian, although one who believes in evolution, and who believes that all of the major religions are valid, and contain some truth, with a lot of cultural and ritual stuff added on. They can all lead to God/Enlightenment/Nirvana/whatever, it's just a matter of finding the one that suits you.
You count Science as a religion?

Just out of curiosity, have you eer converted from anything to anything in your life? If yes, from what to what? Just once, or several times?

And if yes, what made you converse?

In my case, I was raised Catholic, went to Catholic school and thought of myself as Catholic until I was well into my 20s. Although that was more out of habit than anything else.
When I actually started thinking about it, I discovered that I was more of an agnostic, and had been for most of my life. Then, after coming here and discussing with Christians, listening to what they had to say and reading into the bible a good bit, I found that I actually do not belief in god and ought to stop thinking of myself as agnostic, as I was clearly atheist.

So let's hear your story.

I converted a bunch of times. First time I converted, it was from DOS and Win 3.1 to Win 95. Then I converted to Win 98. Then Win XP. I converted because Microsoft stopped supporting the operating system I had, and I had been having major problems.

Went from Catholic to my own set of personal beliefs (heavy influence from Kant, Epicurius, Aristotle, Rumi and Lao Tzu) by way of Buddhism, Taoism and a bit of the Sufi ideas.

i converted from Corel to Adobe a few years back

Oh, also I converted from IE to Firefox.

I can't say I converted from xtianity as I never really believed it as a child, but I gave up my last vestiges of belief along about 1985. I considered myself an atheist for about a year or so until I happened across the Church of Satan. I guess you could say I converted to Satanism then (I joined the Church in 1999) although it would be more correct to say I discovered that I was a Satanist then. So I guess the answer is "no, I have not converted"

Just a question- What are the advantages to worshipping Satan?

I don't think he means he worships satan. There are two types of satantists; those who might worship a figure called satan, or those that take the name, but are atheists, and just want to scare Christians.

I was raised Roman Catholic and went through the motions (as most people in their childhood do) without any real belief in anything, but recently I've found myself not being more religious, per se, but being more spiritual in a "I believe in Jesus" kind of way (which I guess is the same thing as being religious :headbang: :p).

I can't say I converted from xtianity as I never really believed it as a child, but I gave up my last vestiges of belief along about 1985. I considered myself an atheist for about a year or so until I happened across the Church of Satan. I guess you could say I converted to Satanism then (I joined the Church in 1999) although it would be more correct to say I discovered that I was a Satanist then. So I guess the answer is "no, I have not converted"

Just a question- What are the advantages to worshipping Satan?

Just a question- What are the advantages to worshipping Satan?

I don't know. Go ask a Satan-worshipper.:rolleyes:

I don't think he means he worships satan. There are two types of satantists; those who might worship a figure called satan, or those that take the name, but are atheists, and just want to scare Christians.

I guess he's the latter, because I started shaking in my boots the instant I stopped reading his post :rolleyes: :p

I don't know. Go ask a Satan-worshipper.:rolleyes:

My apologies for misunderstanding your beliefs (and I'm being totally serious). But it is a bit misleading calling yourself a Satanist if you don't worship Satan. I mean, it's kinda like me calling myself a Christian but not worshipping Christ. I know where you're coming from, but it's just a bit confusing is all.

My apologies for misunderstanding your beliefs (and I'm being totally serious). But it is a bit misleading calling yourself a Satanist if you don't worship Satan. I mean, it's kinda like me calling myself a Christian but not worshipping Christ. I know where you're coming from, but it's just a bit confusing is all.

Well, you did serve to remind me to add a link to the CoS to my sig. Congrats, you have served a Satanic purpose.;)

Started off as a Christian, then an agnostic, then an atheist, then a diest, and now:

A mix of diesm, Hinduism, Chirstianity, Islam, and my own personal beliefs.

Basically, everybody has to go through purgatory, after which you (always) enter hevan. Purgatory is experiencing, through the eyes of the victims, all the times you've hurt other people, ruined someone's day,etc. Your value of charity should be something like 50% you, 50% less fourtunate. Jesus Christ probably existed, as did Muhammed (probably), and the whole "love one another/turn the other cheek/ thou shalt not kill" pretty much hugely influences my worldview.

I've just become more hardened in my disdain for OT/NT beliefs as time has gone on (especially since i've spent some time here), but i didn't have the whole "indoctrination" thing first, as many other unfortunate folks have.

Mainline to Liberal Protestant Christian
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/49/Transformer_under_load.svg/280px-Transformer_under_load.svg.png
???
Secular Humanism!

Oh yes, I was more referring to Suras 66 and 111, which bothered the crap out of me.

what are they, i havent finished reading the koran?

Oh yes, I was more referring to Suras 66 and 111, which bothered the crap out of me.

What bothers me even more is the following:
In the description of Paradise, Allah says that He has reserved young and beautiful boys as servants for those who qualify to enter the garden of Paradise. This pleasure of child molestation is especially relevant to the Mujahadeen of today, who are dying just to have a real taste of paradise. Here are a few samples of these perverse verses from the Qur’an.

052.020 They will recline (with ease) on Thrones (of dignity) arranged in ranks; and We shall join them to Companions, with beautiful big and lustrous eyes.
052.021 And those who believe and whose families follow them in Faith,- to them shall We join their families: Nor shall We deprive them (of the fruit) of aught of their works: (Yet) is each individual in pledge for his deeds.
052.022 And We shall bestow on them, of fruit and meat, anything they shall desire.
052.023 They shall there exchange, one with another, a (loving) cup free of frivolity, free of all taint of ill.
052.024 Round about them will serve, (devoted) to them, young male servants (handsome) as Pearls well-guarded.
052.025 They will advance to each other, engaging in mutual enquiry.
052.026 They will say: "Aforetime, we were not without fear for the sake of our people.
052.027 "But Allah has been good to us, and has delivered us from the Penalty of the Scorching Wind.

Here is another sample of Qur’anic ‘boys’ in paradise:

076.017 And they will be given to drink there of a Cup (of Wine) mixed with Zanjabil,-
076.018 A fountain there, called Salsabil.
076.019 And round about them will (serve) youths of perpetual (freshness): If thou seest them, thou wouldst think them scattered Pearls.
076.020 And when thou lookest, it is there thou wilt see a Bliss and a Realm Magnificent.
There are many more teachings of the Koran that promise the company of ‘beautiful’ ‘pearl’ like boys used as a baits to convert the sex hungry Bedouin Arabs to Islam. I think even in one of the Tafsirs talking about these verses, it says something about the boys no bleeding? Now, what the hell kind of perverted God creates young boy servants that don't bleed, for those who enter into heaven? The same God that promises sex from 72 specially created houris, made just for sex. And not just the men get the pleasures of non ending heavenly sex, even women do too.

And lets not forget, that in Surat 4, it talks about how the god of Islam loves to create havoc and hate between Christians, and littered through out the Quran it references to Allah as the best deceiver in the universe.

All of that worried me about Islam. That is why I left it before I was even a few weeks into it. And that is why i choose to expose its filth now.

All of that worried me about Islam. That is why I left it before I was even a few weeks into it. And that is why i choose to expose its filth now.

dude that is on the flame side, so you might want to remove it

dude that is on the flame side, so you might want to remove it

I disagree.

I'm tired of religion being extended a blanket of self-censorship.

If someone here called a pedophile filthy, I doubt there'd be much fuss, why when it's condoned under the cover of religion do we allow it?

Zilam is not calling a specific person filth, he's not calling Islam filth, he's saying certain aspects of a text are.

I've converted:
from non-cauliflower-eater to cauliflower-eater
from non-aubergines-eater to aubergines-eater
from non-metal-listener to metal-listener

...

d'oh.

from fundamentalist evangelical christian I went to a sort of conscientious objection to the god I still thought existed, and then to atheist, subsequently I built my own moral system based around ahimsa (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahimsa), though I didn't call it that yet. then I realized that buddhism had come up with Pratitya-samutpada (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pratitya-samutpada) before I had, and that it was probably a good idea not to dismiss all other religions outright, and that they weren't all as stupid as calvinism. in the process I gave occultism a shot, just to be open minded, and became convinced that spiritism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spiritism) was real, and am now an eclectic pantheist who subscribes to Advaita (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advaita) philosophy.

Zilam is not calling a specific person filth, he's not calling Islam filth, he's saying certain aspects of a text are.it's still an ethnocentric judgment. I don't see him bitching about the human sacrifice in the bible, or the fact christians regularly married at an age we now consider to be pedophilia. also, saying that they will be there and be beautiful doesn't mean that they will be sex objects. a classic motif in islamic poetry is that of the practice (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazar_ill%27al-murd) of *looking* at beautiful youths which models the love of the mortal soul for the unattainable Other, that is, God. mohammed specifically prohibits this kind of sexual activity. (not saying it didn't happen outside quranic idealism...but it happened and continues to happen in all cultures). also, calling an ethnic group, that still exists, sex hungry perverts is just outright racist.

the christian bible also talks about god deceiving people, hardening their hearts so they cannot accept truth, causing political upheavals and invasions, and so on. you're at best reacting poorly to a culture you don't remotely understand, and at worst being racist.

Nah, I just kind of drift; usually, my beliefs evolve gradually rather than have specific moments of change. The scales don't fall from my eyes, they erode.

it's still an ethnocentric judgment. I don't see him bitching about the human sacrifice in the bible, or the fact christians regularly married at an age we now consider to be pedophilia. also, saying that they will be there and be beautiful doesn't mean that they will be sex objects. a classic motif in islamic poetry is that of the practice (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazar_ill%27al-murd) of *looking* at beautiful youths which models the love of the mortal soul for the unattainable Other, that is, God. mohammed specifically prohibits this kind of sexual activity. (not saying it didn't happen outside quranic idealism...but it happened and continues to happen in all cultures). also, calling an ethnic group, that still exists, sex hungry perverts is just outright racist.

the christian bible also talks about god deceiving people, hardening their hearts so they cannot accept truth, causing political upheavals and invasions, and so on.

All very good but nothing to do with my post, which is about any religion being granted special status. Many people make all manner of points about Christianity in these forums, someone provides their thoughts on the Quran and suddenly it's a flame - why?

People call flame on posts against Christianity, if not all religions, they fail as well and so they should.

Check what a flame is.

you're at best reacting poorly to a culture you don't remotely understand, and at worst being racist.

Alas, you're making wild assumptions based on misinterpreting my point. Specks and logs.

To my eternal shame I have converted over the last several years from...No I can't bring myself to say it.... Real Ale to Lager! Nooooooooooooo.

What!

I know, I know, but all of that warm beer was giving me gut problems, and I...I.. wanted to fit in more with the kids.

Damn you peer pressure, damn you!

To my eternal shame I have converted over the last several years from...No I can't bring myself to say it.... Real Ale to Lager! Nooooooooooooo.

What!

Just out of curiosity, have you eer converted from anything to anything in your life? If yes, from what to what? Just once, or several times?

And if yes, what made you converse?

In my case, I was raised Catholic, went to Catholic school and thought of myself as Catholic until I was well into my 20s. Although that was more out of habit than anything else.
When I actually started thinking about it, I discovered that I was more of an agnostic, and had been for most of my life. Then, after coming here and discussing with Christians, listening to what they had to say and reading into the bible a good bit, I found that I actually do not belief in god and ought to stop thinking of myself as agnostic, as I was clearly atheist.

So let's hear your story.

I grew up in an atheist household I guess you'd say. Grew up in an atmosphere of pretty heavy violence and sexual abuse. The only Christ I knew was the scary Jesus hanging on the cross (sorry catholics...but when I was a kid, he scared the crap outta me). To be honest, I thought christians were the most ignorant, hypocritical bunch of bullshitters (my opinion has changed very little...which makes me very sad) and I wanted nothing to do with their God who had let all these terrible things happen to me.
When I was 15 a friend invited me along to her youth group. It was a pentecostal church and they were in the middle of a Holy Spirit revival. I walked into that place, saw people falling over, speaking in tongues, dancing, singing with their arms up in the air....and thought, 'My friend is in a cult!!' And the only reason I decided to come back was to convince her just how stupid she was being there.
On my second visit, there was a lady preacher. And she didn't talk much out of the bible, but basically just told her story. Her story was very similar to mine. And then she told us how God loves us and wants something better for us; a hope and a future. Then she asked if anyone wanted that future to come down the front and she'd pray for them. Its very hard to explain what happened next. I wanted to go down to her, but i was terrified. And in my head I said "God, if you're real, I need a lot of people down there with me". I barely finished that sentence in my head, when every person in the room got up and went down the front. So I went.
Now, once I was down there, she started praying for people and they were falling over and i thought SHIT how do i get away from here?? And made the decision that I'd fall over too, and while they were all distracted, I'd make a run for it, and never come back. Well, my plan didn't quite work out that way. The lady preacher put her hand on my head...and as soon as she did I felt like an electricity shoot through my entire body. It was like sound waves going through me. And I started crying....bawling....And I kept saying over and over "Jesus....Jesus....Jesus.." I was speaking, but it was like something else was speaking out of me. From that moment on, I've known God is real.
Now, since that time. Things haven't been easy for me. The only thing that changed that night was me...I still had to go home to the same screwed up family. A few years later I fell sick with an immune disorder which had me going in and out of hospital for the next 6 years. But something inside me changed that night. And no science or logic can explain it. I had an encounter with God, and there's just no unchanging something like that.

Sorry for the essay, but you wanted the answer :)

Have I ever converted?

I've converted industrial buildings into commercial buildings.

And a few times, into residential.

At the end of the day I was able to look back and say "now some people will have a nice- and yet affordable- place to live. And, it's competently designed and built."

I can't imagine a religious conversion being that rewarding.

Option 4, afiest fo' life dogg! :D

also, calling an ethnic group, that still exists, sex hungry perverts is just outright racist.

What if it's true?


Americans... Good lord, look at us. We've got scantily clad young women on the covers of men's AND women's magazines. Check out our Malls. If Abercromby and Fiche is selling clothes, why do they spend so much time showing you pictures of kids not wearing them? We're obsessed with sex, always trying to get more and better...

and the Japanese... do you honestly believe that anyone could turn a profit selling girl's underwear to men (used!) in a nation that WASN'T full of sex hungry perverts? Take a walk in Tokyo. Check out their comic books. Check out their tour groups going to Thailand.

But are we the worst? Google had a fascinating story, a while back, about the different "most popular search words" in different nations. Guess who was looking for kinky, nasty sex?

But are we the worst? Google had a fascinating story, a while back, about the different "most popular search words" in different nations. Guess who was looking for kinky, nasty sex?
Wealthy white heterosexual Christian males who vote Republican?

Wealthy white heterosexual Christian males who vote Republican?

*snigger*

Converted to atheism around the age of 15. One of the best things that have ever happened to me.

Now I'm thinkin' of satanism cos it just sounds cool.

Wealthy white heterosexual Christian males who vote Republican?


Not even close.

Have some fun here:
http://www.google.com/trends

Type in a search term and see where it's the most popular!
Wear safety equipment, because it may cause your prejudicial world view to crash. You may end up with many inexplicable things, like, for instance, why are the Dutch obsessed with the word "Kinky"?

Like so many people in this thread, I started off Catholic, even went to Catholic school for most of my childhood. In College I experimented a bit with Wicca but subsequently converted to LDS (Mormon) as a result of a spiritual experience.

WHOOOO! CHURCH OF GOD!!!!! AMEN!!! Jesus is pretty cool if you actually meet him, in that case, I HAVE. WOOOOO! But yes, once you go COG, you never go anywhere else; because, well, we're just fun like that.


Sidenote: We are pentecostal. If you don't know what that is, we're the church that everyone calls crazy, we speak in other tongues, and we sing with instruments, and we like to sing! HAHA!

I try not to criticize other people's religions, but this is one I've never been able to understand... When you're in such a meeting, what is the function of "speaking in tongues?" In other words, what purpose does it serve?

I can't say I converted from xtianity as I never really believed it as a child, but I gave up my last vestiges of belief along about 1985. I considered myself an atheist for about a year or so until I happened across the Church of Satan. I guess you could say I converted to Satanism then (I joined the Church in 1999) although it would be more correct to say I discovered that I was a Satanist then. So I guess the answer is "no, I have not converted"

Satantists = attention hounds

it's still an ethnocentric judgment. I don't see him bitching about the human sacrifice in the bible, or the fact christians regularly married at an age we now consider to be pedophilia. also, saying that they will be there and be beautiful doesn't mean that they will be sex objects. a classic motif in islamic poetry is that of the practice (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazar_ill%27al-murd) of *looking* at beautiful youths which models the love of the mortal soul for the unattainable Other, that is, God. mohammed specifically prohibits this kind of sexual activity. (not saying it didn't happen outside quranic idealism...but it happened and continues to happen in all cultures). also, calling an ethnic group, that still exists, sex hungry perverts is just outright racist.

the christian bible also talks about god deceiving people, hardening their hearts so they cannot accept truth, causing political upheavals and invasions, and so on. you're at best reacting poorly to a culture you don't remotely understand, and at worst being racist.

You obviously haven't read many threads in this forum yet. Don't worry, you'll see.

Have some fun here:
http://www.google.com/trends

Type in a search term and see where it's the most popular!
xplicable things, like, for instance, why are the Dutch obsessed with the word "Kinky"?

As another example, I am utterly baffled as to why "supercalifragilisticexpialidocious" seems to be of interest in the Philippines.

Bear in mind, Trends is not giving you raw, total number of searches, it is giving you the result as a percentage of all searches from that area. So, while Americans may type supercalifragilisticexpialidocious more often, a random Filipino seems more likely to do so than a random American. Why?

I try not to criticize other people's religions, but this is one I've never been able to understand... When you're in such a meeting, what is the function of "speaking in tongues?" In other words, what purpose does it serve?.

Speaking in tongues is one of the 9 gifts of the spirit. And there really isn't any way to explain it without sounding off the wall crazy. And had I not experienced it myself, I would have been very very sceptical too.
Tongues is a language just between you and God, or it can actually mean you speaking in a language which you would never have had opportunity to know. eg. At pentecost they were speaking in every language praising God, and the people watching on understood them. I've only seen that happen once or twice.
The purpose of any spiritual gift, is to increase faith in people. Tongues builds up your own faith, or when interpreted the whole congregation.
Does that help at all?

both my primary and secondary schools were C of E, both had compulsory religious education, a religious service every morning as part of assembly and at my primary school they gave us gideon's bibles. until about the age of 13 i never really questioned it, i went along with it all, i just thought it was boring. then i started on a confirmation course and got all pious. completed that when i was 14 and got confirmed at which point i was very definitely a christian. not long after i had something of a 'religious experience' i suppose, but not really. i was lying in my bed ready to go to sleep and i idly wondered what it would feel like not to have god and suddenly felt like my mind had gone over an abyss, my mind's eye went black. that kind of shook me a lot but it got my looking at what i actually believed and after a while i realised that i didn't actually believe in any kind of higher power and the bible just seemed a bit ridiculous, i was literally just using the institution of the church and it's rituals and community shit as a crutch. i also realised (or rather, admitted to myself) that i depised all the people i went to church with. so now i'm an atheist although intellectually i'll admit the agnostic position i just do not believe. sometimes i wish i still had the crutch, and i've never needed it more, but really i love the fact that i have complete responsibility for my own well-being now.

Speaking in tongues is one of the 9 gifts of the spirit. And there really isn't any way to explain it without sounding off the wall crazy.

Since the same (or equivalent) phenomenon is observed in religions all over the world, do you believe:

1) Anyone else claiming their experience is the same is lying, if they aren't of the same religion.

2) Other people in other religions are equally close to God and experience the same gifts.

or

3) There is probably an underlying physiological explanation for these experiences, even if we haven't discovered it yet.

or something else?

I try not to criticize other people's religions, but this is one I've never been able to understand... When you're in such a meeting, what is the function of "speaking in tongues?" In other words, what purpose does it serve?



Satantists = attention hounds




something about this doen't add up...

Since the same (or equivalent) phenomenon is observed in religions all over the world, do you believe:

1) Anyone else claiming their experience is the same is lying, if they aren't of the same religion.

2) Other people in other religions are equally close to God and experience the same gifts.

or

3) There is probably an underlying physiological explanation for these experiences, even if we haven't discovered it yet.

or something else?

Either 2 or 3, or most likely, a combination of 2, 3 and various other 'something elses' We know something happens in our brains when we experience glossolalia.

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/55485.php

something about this doen't add up...

I concede that this one is a contradiction... But I would like to point out that the reason they chose 'satanist' as the name of the religion was specifically to get under Christians' skin, so on some level it's an admission they want attention :)

I said I try not to criticize.. I don't always succeed ;)

Since the same (or equivalent) phenomenon is observed in religions all over the world, do you believe:

1) Anyone else claiming their experience is the same is lying, if they aren't of the same religion.

2) Other people in other religions are equally close to God and experience the same gifts.

or

3) There is probably an underlying physiological explanation for these experiences, even if we haven't discovered it yet.

or something else?

Thats a tough one. COuld u send me some stuff on the equivalents? I'd be really interested.

1) I wouldn't ever say that someone was lying about their own personal experience. The whole point of a personal testimony is that it is that person's view of the world.
2) As I mentioned before in my previous post, I'm a christian. Therefore, I believe that the only way to God is through the sacrifice made by Jesus. So if someone had similar experiences, I would say they were close to their God...but not mine.
I think a lot of people have more faith than me comparatively in their god. And its something I really admire. Especially when it comes to living good lives. But at the same time, I wouldn't trade in my relationship with God for anything.
3) There quite possibly could be a physiological reason for it all. I mean, we use what? 10% of our brain? and haven't really got a clue what goes on inside us. Not to mention the group mentality. But I also know that we are spiritual beings. Not necessarily religious, but spirituality is part of the human experience and perhaps when we focus in on that, it unlocks the supernatural. I wouldn't have a clue.
Sorry I wasn't more helpful.

Speaking in tongues is one of the 9 gifts of the spirit. And there really isn't any way to explain it without sounding off the wall crazy. And had I not experienced it myself, I would have been very very sceptical too.
Tongues is a language just between you and God, or it can actually mean you speaking in a language which you would never have had opportunity to know. eg. At pentecost they were speaking in every language praising God, and the people watching on understood them. I've only seen that happen once or twice.
The purpose of any spiritual gift, is to increase faith in people. Tongues builds up your own faith, or when interpreted the whole congregation.
Does that help at all?

Yes and no... As a Mormon, I do believe in the concept of 'speaking in tongues' in some of the ways you describe, especially regarding the Pentacost when the Apostles went out among the people, preaching to each person in their own language.

In LDS speaking in tongues can also refer to speaking by inspiration from the Holy Spirit, where you'd speak y our normal language, simply using inspired words.

The disconnect for me is in what I've seen in Pentacostal congregations where people will spontaneously begin to 'speak in tongues' that is, by definition, incomprehensible to others. My confusion comes from the apparent lack of a practical reason for it. I've heard it explained as proof of the influence of the Spirit, but it seems to me to be sort of redundant given that those who have these experiences do not require proof, as their faith is what sustains them.

I hope that doesn't sound critical, just sharing my perspective for the sake of communication.

Since the same (or equivalent) phenomenon is observed in religions all over the world, do you believe:

1) Anyone else claiming their experience is the same is lying, if they aren't of the same religion.

2) Other people in other religions are equally close to God and experience the same gifts.

or

3) There is probably an underlying physiological explanation for these experiences, even if we haven't discovered it yet.

or something else?

IMHO they're similar reactions to dissimilar sources.

In other words, my personal opinion is that the brain is an organ that, among ot her things, exists as an interface device between our spirit and our body. Think of it as an adapter, in a way that allows our spirit to exercise control and receive feedback from our bodies.

Spiritual experiences from different sources can have similar manifestations in the physical body. One might argue that in the case of a Christian, this is evidence of the body reacting to direct influence from the Holy Spirit, where in the case of a non-Christian the spiritual influence is from another source, like a more 'ordinary' type spirit or perhaps a demon. (Or even in Chrisians in the case of a posession.)

Yes and no... As a Mormon, I do believe in the concept of 'speaking in tongues' in some of the ways you describe, especially regarding the Pentacost when the Apostles went out among the people, preaching to each person in their own language.

In LDS speaking in tongues can also refer to speaking by inspiration from the Holy Spirit, where you'd speak y our normal language, simply using inspired words.

The disconnect for me is in what I've seen in Pentacostal congregations where people will spontaneously begin to 'speak in tongues' that is, by definition, incomprehensible to others. My confusion comes from the apparent lack of a practical reason for it. I've heard it explained as proof of the influence of the Spirit, but it seems to me to be sort of redundant given that those who have these experiences do not require proof, as their faith is what sustains them.

I hope that doesn't sound critical, just sharing my perspective for the sake of communication.

Nah its sweet :) Not critical at all.
Speaking in tongues is a sign that you have been baptised in the Holy Spirit. I've never heard tongues being described as divine preaching/talking...in the pentecostal church, we call that being under the anointing...and tongues a different category.
Yeah, I get why you'd be confused. Sometimes the place can just erupt. In the bible, when prayer happens like that, there should be an interpreter. Someone who can translate that 'speech' into edification for the entire church. In my church, usually that will only happen during prayer meetings (the eruption of tongues all at once) mainly because we are praying for the same things individually, in our own ways. And some people prefer to just speak out of their spirit. Personal preference I guess.
And I guess the proof, as with any spiritual encounter, is to see that person change to be more like Christ over time...does that help?
Do you believe in baptism of the Holy Spirit?

I converted from being non religious to being a Pure Land Buddhist after having my school take in a few students from China. They sparked my interest and now I'm practising.

I was raised Catholic, then explored Unitarianism, Deism, Atheism, and Humanism for a while, before eventually deciding to be a Non-Denominational Christian.

Nah its sweet :) Not critical at all.
Speaking in tongues is a sign that you have been baptised in the Holy Spirit. I've never heard tongues being described as divine preaching/talking...in the pentecostal church, we call that being under the anointing...and tongues a different category.
Yeah, I get why you'd be confused. Sometimes the place can just erupt. In the bible, when prayer happens like that, there should be an interpreter. Someone who can translate that 'speech' into edification for the entire church. In my church, usually that will only happen during prayer meetings (the eruption of tongues all at once) mainly because we are praying for the same things individually, in our own ways. And some people prefer to just speak out of their spirit. Personal preference I guess.
And I guess the proof, as with any spiritual encounter, is to see that person change to be more like Christ over time...does that help?
Do you believe in baptism of the Holy Spirit?

Thanks for the details. I don't personally know any people who go to a Pentacostal church these days so my access to knowledgeable information has been nil.

Yes, we do believe in the Baptism of the Holy Spirit which, in Mormon practice, occurs at the time of Confirmation, which typically comes shortly (or immediately) after the Bapistm by Immersion.

This, (and I believe that we have this idea in common) enables the Holy Spirit to give gifts, with speaking in tongues being one of them.

I would need to go back over my Church history, but I believe there may have been occasional incidents of what you describe, but I'm not sure. If you're interested, I'll let you know what I find.

I admit that when I've seen people erupt in tongues, as you describe it, it makes me a bit uncomfortable, probably because it's so different from my own experience. (As I noted earlier, prior to being a Mormon I was raised Catholic, where stuff like that is unheard of.)

Note to everybody else: If the Pentacostal and the Mormon can have a pleasant discussion about Scripture and religion, maybe there's hope for everybody else :D

I was raised fairly Christian. We went to a Lutheran Church, but the pastors made sure to stress to us that we weren't supposed to be specifically Lutheran, but just Christians. Now, I was the kid that asked "if man was created on the 6th day, then how did dinosaurs exist 65 million years before us?" but I sort of doublethought it away. I just kinda accepted both ideas as true.

Once I got to middle school and encountered the idea of evolution, and my teacher made sure to say "now, some people say there's this huge debate between religion and evolution. But I disagree, you don't have to take the Bible literally and such." I immediately liked this idea. I thought back and applied it to other things that I already had learned about, like the existence of dinosaurs so long ago that was incompatible with the young earth belief.
Yeah, a day doesn't have to be a day. Cool! I just ignored problems with the "figurative day" explanation: problems like the Earth-- and even plants-- being created before the Sun.

Around my Junior year of high school, I started questioning a good bit more than I had previously, and I often found myself making excuses and rationalizations for my faith. (Indeed, if you look at some of my earliest posts on NSG, I'm often trying to do just that) I found myself desperately trying to believe in God. I said the Lord's Prayer and the Apostle's Creed every night as I went to bed. Of course I believed in God!

It wasn't until last year, my freshman year of college, that I was willing to admit to myself that I had become an atheist-- aided, really, by a few key things.

Firstly, my roommate was killed in a car wreck. This wasn't the "OMG, how could God let this happen?!" type of conversion to atheism, though. Rather, it put me into a very intense period of introspection and thought that led to my de-conversion. Even that next weekend, when I went to visit his family for the memorial service, I felt vaguely... out of place... singing hymns.

Secondly, I came across, as I had once before, the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster. This time, however, I read it a bit more. This did two things: one, a lot of the reasons I still clung to belief were used as support for the FSM. (You can't disprove it, etc.) The other was that it helped, I think, make the transition into atheism a bit easier on me. (I probably still would have done it, but it would have been such a bigger leap for me.)

I could claim to be a Pastafarian-- knowing it was a joke, but still... I don't know if it make sense, but even just jokingly believing in a God helped me, both for the internal "shock"(I can't think of the right word here, really...) of the transition, and for my concern over a theistic society's hostility towards atheism.

Finally, I came across The God Delusion. And, while Dawkins' shattering of the different so-called proofs for God was nice, that really wasn't the main thing it did for me. Mostly, it was that it made me realize that it's okay to be an atheist, that you can still be happy and intellectually fulfilled, that you can still find inspiration in the world. Atheism is nothing to shy away from! Nothing to be ashamed of, but proud! It was his goal of consciousness raising that really succeeded for me. And I am glad it did!

Yeah. So, if you actually managed to read my (probably extremely boring) story without skipping it, well, uh... that's what happened. Yeah. :)

I was raised in a christian enviroment (my parents were no christians, but the rest was), and it wasn't until i was about 12 or 13 that i realized it was total bullpoo, so i became a militant atheist, and i still am.

I've gone from atheist to agnostic to animist. My animist beliefs are still evolving as I'm still far from sure about details. My mum is Catholic, and I grew up in America, so the whole puritanical brainwashing was tried on me. That's probably why I rejected religion completely for a while, but I've come to accept it a lot more now.

I did convert from Neo-Paganism, to Sikhi about 6-7 years ago.

Paganism covers a heck of a lot more than Wicca, you know. I was pagan, but not Wiccan, for years.

Edit:



Aww, damn. Beat me to it. Almost word for word, too. ;)

My answer was a response to a question concerning what brand of Paganism I followed. My response was in no way intended to restrict Paganism to Wicca, nor am I foolish enough to wish to.

For the record, the spiritual path I attempt, with varying degrees of success, to follow now is another brand of what the Western World is pleased to call Paganism. Oh, and please be aware that one can be agnostic or atheist and still follow a spiritual path, belief in a deity is not required. I am, to the best of my knowledge and abililty, a Taoist agnostic.

I was raised evangelist christian. But then I got older, started seeing other points of view, seeing facts that disprove christianity, reading the bible myself and seeing the contradictions, and seeing the hypocracy of christians worldwide and I said "fuck it"

Dad still tries to convert me back, but he's fighting a losing battle

Born a Christian, will die a Christian.

Most atheists I see were former Catholics. Proof in my opinion the fallacy of the mainstream catholic church. Mainstream religion in general is but a bastardization of the real thing. Some folks though drop out for entirely weaker reasons, based on their own ignorance or mental/spiritual corruptibility.

Atheism is not the answer we need today.

Was Catholic, I am Catholic, and I intend to stay Catholic. Politically though many of my views contradict my faith. :(

Born a Christian, will die a Christian.

Most atheists I see were former Catholics. Proof in my opinion the fallacy of the mainstream catholic church. Mainstream religion in general is but a bastardization of the real thing. Some folks though drop out for entirely weaker reasons, based on their own ignorance or mental/spiritual corruptibility.

Atheism is not the answer we need today.

who said they were looking for answers? I'm still looking for the questions.

it's still an ethnocentric judgment. I don't see him bitching about the human sacrifice in the bible, Who was mentioned as killing another human as a sacrifice to appease God? The only sacrifice that i can think of is either mentioned by the OT people talking about Pagans doing it, OR the sacrifice of Christ.

or the fact christians regularly married at an age we now consider to be pedophilia. Difference! Mohammad married a 6 year old girl, and consummated the marriage with her at age 9! She was pre pubescent! Most early xtian marriages would be no earlier than 14, which is with in the age of puberty. And besides, the NT even talks about the fact that it is better to avoid marriage at all, to focus all energy on Christ. Where as Islam says that marriage is half the deen, or rather it perfects half the religion, and then in various quranic ayats and hadith, it permits marriage to young pre pubescent girls. I see a MAJOR difference there.


also, saying that they will be there and be beautiful doesn't mean that they will be sex objects. a classic motif in islamic poetry is that of the practice (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazar_ill%27al-murd) of *looking* at beautiful youths which models the love of the mortal soul for the unattainable Other, that is, God. Saying in the tafsir that they are virgin boys that won't bleed leads one to assume they will be used for some other purpose than seeing God or beauty or what ever.


mohammed specifically prohibits this kind of sexual activity. (not saying it didn't happen outside quranic idealism...but it happened and continues to happen in all cultures). Mohammad didn't prohibit anything. :rolleyes: Well, at least until it was beneficial to him. For example, he didn't recieve the revelation to hide women beneath coverings until Umar, one of his companions, complained about seeing the women late at night outside pissing. He said that they should be clothed...Magically later, Mohammad (piss be upon him) had a revelation saying that women should be covered unless inside with family! Also, you know the famous prohibition of alcohol in Islam? Well, before it was convenient for him(me thinks alot of his warriors got too drunk one night and was losing him some battles!) he said that alcohol was ok...Then it was to be taken in moderation..then he abrogated again saying it should never be drunk at all. But, he said that Jannah would be full of rives of wine..Probably just a way to appease the drunks in his army.


also, calling an ethnic group, that still exists, sex hungry perverts is just outright racist. Okay, that is a good point. I just really typed that in the heat of the moment.

the christian bible also talks about god deceiving people, hardening their hearts so they cannot accept truth, causing political upheavals and invasions, and so on. Actually, you will see all of that in the Old testament, not in the new. Maybe a hardening of the heart in the NT, but none of the other. And to be honest, I don't have an answer for a lot of what happened in the OT. It is a very hard thing to wrestle with, and I wish I could answer, and I am sure there is an answer to it, but I haven't found it yet. Doesn't mean I am not looking or admitting 'defeat'


you're at best reacting poorly to a culture you don't remotely understand, and at worst being racist. yes, because critiquing a group of people following a sex crazed self proclaimed prophet with temporal epilepsy is racist?

What if you were to critique Bush followers? Or something like that? Should I call you a word that completely does not fit who you are?

Not even close.

Have some fun here:
http://www.google.com/trends

Type in a search term and see where it's the most popular!
Wear safety equipment, because it may cause your prejudicial world view to crash. You may end up with many inexplicable things, like, for instance, why are the Dutch obsessed with the word "Kinky"?

I did gay sex in there...English was #1 language doing it...#2 was arabic.

Oh dear, I'm constantly reminded that defending freedom of speech can be hard when I see what I'm defending.

.

Atheism is not the answer we need today.

Neither is attacking other brothers and sisters in Christ, namely the Catholic Church. It is not A church that is making people turn away, but rather THE church that is around today. There are no spiritual leaders. There are no men or women of God on fire for Christ. There are no spirit led services. There is a lukewarmness to the whole body of Christ, aka the Church. You want to see people turning to Christ? You need to revive the body to its first century glory.

Who was mentioned as killing another human as a sacrifice to appease God? The only sacrifice that i can think of is either mentioned by the OT people talking about Pagans doing it, OR the sacrifice of Christ.

Um, Abraham and Isaac ring a bell? or Jephtha and his daughter?

Born a Christian, will die a Christian.

Most atheists I see were former Catholics. Proof in my opinion the fallacy of the mainstream catholic church. Mainstream religion in general is but a bastardization of the real thing. Some folks though drop out for entirely weaker reasons, based on their own ignorance or mental/spiritual corruptibility.

Atheism is not the answer we need today.


One night, you will go to sleep and not wake up

I was raised evangelical christian, but the more I learned about Christianity through reading the bible, my church, and my peers, the more I realized it was BS.


Currently Im agnostic and playing around with neopaganism simply out of intrest and the meditative said of it.

I also own almost every major holy book I can get my hands on (Bible, Quaran, Torah, etc) because I find theology fascinating.

And if yes, what made you converse?

Well, the other passengers seemed nice enough, and even a little banter about the weather can make an otherwise dull train trip more interesting.

As for converting: I have not. Before I try out a new faith, I need to find out what my old one is.

Um, Abraham and Isaac ring a bell? or Jephtha and his daughter?

Did Abraham go through and kill Isaac though? And did he do it in a ritualistic manner, like many Canaanite pagan societies would do?

As for the second one, I had never heard of it until now, to be honest. So I researched a bit and found a few nice articles on it. There were a lot from an atheist viewpoint that uses it to criticize the oh-so-evil Judeo-Christian God.

But here is what I get from Christian apologetics:
http://www.tektonics.org/gk/jepthah.html

You should read that. That site is probably the most scholarly and accurate apologetic site I have ever come upon.

That particular link talks about how Jephthah didn't receive a command from God, he didn't intend for a sacrifice to be human, and finally, it more than likely never occurred(the sacrifice that is). And this is all based off what we read in scripture.

So do you want to throw any thing else out there?

Born a Christian, will die a Christian.

Most atheists I see were former Catholics. Proof in my opinion the fallacy of the mainstream catholic church. Mainstream religion in general is but a bastardization of the real thing. Some folks though drop out for entirely weaker reasons, based on their own ignorance or mental/spiritual corruptibility.

Atheism is not the answer we need today.

:headbang: I can't believe you said that. I'm really disappointed.
For those who aren't christian, its pretty obvious that there's a divide between christian denominations. And definitely from this post :(
Which to be honest, just pisses me off! We are meant to be known for our love!! Which part of love others as yourself didn't you get?? I'm just so disappointed. Catholics...they're our family too. They might have a few different views, but you don't bag out your family! And atheists, one of the main reasons they reject Christ is because of Christians...we suck at loving people. And we're really great at ramming religious beliefs down people's throats when we don't practise them ourselves!!
If someone falls away from the faith, you should be crying! Not cracking a whip and telling them what failures they are. We're the only army in the world that shoots its injured.
And I know I've said this before....but i'm so disappointed. Please don't do it again.

I've never really ever been a very religious person. My parents stopped going to church when I was little and I was never baptized or anything. I'm actually glad they didn't raise me with a particular religion (they were both Catholic btw). Anyway, I'm probably best described as an agnostic who thinks there's some form of higher power out there. It's not something I would pray to or have a "personal relationship" with. Also, living life based on some musty old book written by people over 2,000 years ago is silliness. Especially since it has gone through the Dark Ages, numerous translations, has been in the hands of (likely) corrupt clergy, etc. I am SURE that the book, written by MAN, after 2,000 years of possession by filthy, fallible, HUMANS is the pure Word of the Almighty God.

I just cannot understand Christianity. It makes no sense to me although I am sure Jesus had some pretty sweet lessons that I am fairly sure some of his more outspoken fans in the U.S. decided to ignore.

Um, Abraham and Isaac ring a bell? or Jephtha and his daughter?
What about the infamous Sodom story, in which some teenage girls are offered up to a mob so they can be raped, and then God rewards their father for his willingness to donate his daughters' bodies?

Was Catholic, I am Catholic, and I intend to stay Catholic. Politically though many of my views contradict my faith. :(
Not really. It's quite admirable to recoignise that others' beliefs differ from your own and allow others to live their lives by their beliefs not yours.

What about the infamous Sodom story, in which some teenage girls are offered up to a mob so they can be raped, and then God rewards their father for his willingness to donate his daughters' bodies?

Hey, is this a thread based on why people converted? Or a thread to bag people out for choosing those beliefs.....Cut it out.
Why is everyone so angry with christians anyhow?

i've converted some incandescent light bulbs to lower energy consuption ones.

i've (long since) converted from owing my soul to an automobile to walking and using public transport.

i don't think i can see much in the concept otherwise.
i mean yes, standing conclusions are always conditioned on introduction of new real evidence, but that is a standing belief, not one i've 'converted' to.

i did by the time i was 12, get over how much fun i had thought the holy hallilujas were supposed to be, when i was somewhere arround 10 or 11. mostly about the time their condemnation of logic and the use of our god given brains begain to dawn on me.

this did not convert me to a blind faith in anything having to not be, but it did resault in my taking with a rather large grain of salt any and all subsiquent claims to arbitrary and speculative "knowledge" of the unknown.

=^^=
.../\...

I chose the 'changed religion for another religion' in the poll.

I was born into a catholic family, and was likely to be raised a catholic until social services discovered I was being beaten severely at 9 weeks old and took me into care with a broken jaw, dislocated shoulder and numerous other injuries. 4 years later, I was adopted by a Christian family (CofE) who decided I wanted to belong to their faith and took all the appropriate measures to force me into that lifestyle.

As soon as I got to an age where I knew my own mind, I started to research various religions and decided that Paganism was the faith/lifestyle which better suited me as someone who no longer wished to be a hypocrit.
I didn't like the flaws in christianity, such as... God created man in his own image, but we evolved from apes. Ergo, God must resemble an ape!? :eek:

Agnostic to Christain. and glad I Did, I found true, God-loveing Christains, Not alot of these Hypirical Christains you see now these days, (has't helped my spelling thoght Lol.)

I was born and raised in a Christian home, had no problem with the existence of God. It's kinda hard to when your father gets some mystery bug during a trip to africa and is dead for 20 minutes or so, before coming back to life and fully recovering without the doctors' intervention. They were sitting there in hazmat suits too freaked out to do anything. He got home and could name exactly who was praying for him the moment he died. He was right about all of them.

My real problem was I didn't know WHO God was. No one could answer my questions about the Bible either (by the way, if anyone has real questions and isn't just out to start an argument, PM me and we can discuss). Life kinda stuffed up progressively, as it does. Most people probably know school isn't a great place when you don't fit in. I got more and more desperate, thought uni would be the answer. It wasn't. I think I had depression from about year 9 all the way through to uni.

I got so fed up one night I just collapsed on my bed and said, "my life isn't worth it, you do something with it now God." It's kinda hard to describe personally meeting something that's larger than this universe. It's not quite like they describe in the books with galaxies in the eyes.... but you certainly get the feeling galaxy sized thoughts are going on. I cried a lot, mostly because I finally understood that he loved me. Really weird, but cool experience. Hope I do it again someday.

I woke up the next morning, and I couldn't feel depressed! I was too happy! Hasn't ever been a problem since. people told me I was different that week too. It was the start of a wonderful thing - a great friendship with the coolest guy in the universe!

I guess all that to say, I converted from being a christian by upbringing, to being a believer. I think meeting God is all the difference between seeing an empty religion, and understanding the why of everything.

I guess all that to say, I converted from being a christian by upbringing, to being a believer. I think meeting God is all the difference between seeing an empty religion, and understanding the why of everything.

Thats really cool. Couldn't have put it better myself. :)

Neither is attacking other brothers and sisters in Christ, namely the Catholic Church. It is not A church that is making people turn away, but rather THE church that is around today. There are no spiritual leaders. There are no men or women of God on fire for Christ. There are no spirit led services. There is a lukewarmness to the whole body of Christ, aka the Church. You want to see people turning to Christ? You need to revive the body to its first century glory.

Check. :)

(That being one of the characteristics of the LDS movement.)

:headbang: I can't believe you said that. I'm really disappointed.
For those who aren't christian, its pretty obvious that there's a divide between christian denominations. And definitely from this post :(
Which to be honest, just pisses me off! We are meant to be known for our love!! Which part of love others as yourself didn't you get?? I'm just so disappointed. Catholics...they're our family too. They might have a few different views, but you don't bag out your family! And atheists, one of the main reasons they reject Christ is because of Christians...we suck at loving people. And we're really great at ramming religious beliefs down people's throats when we don't practise them ourselves!!
If someone falls away from the faith, you should be crying! Not cracking a whip and telling them what failures they are. We're the only army in the world that shoots its injured.
And I know I've said this before....but i'm so disappointed. Please don't do it again.

You rock. I respect you.


I got so fed up one night I just collapsed on my bed and said, "my life isn't worth it, you do something with it now God." It's kinda hard to describe personally meeting something that's larger than this universe. It's not quite like they describe in the books with galaxies in the eyes.... but you certainly get the feeling galaxy sized thoughts are going on. I cried a lot, mostly because I finally understood that he loved me. Really weird, but cool experience. Hope I do it again someday.


I've had similar experiences and there's really no way to describe it to someone who hasn't had it for themselves, but for those who have, the feeling is very well remembered. Kudos to you.

This question is quite difficult to apply to my perspective. I have recently come to hold that to maintain a committed position of faith, whether in or not in something that is inherently uncertain, is counterproductive to the aim of engaging with the world. Because it generally appears to me that our ideological landscape is more defined by its totally unstable topology than any explicit features therein, a position whereby one can adapt to conceptual fluctuations seems to be one that can be more readily relied on than those that rely on building a thesis devoid of possible refutation (though of course, chaos is capable of self-regulation, so even this approach is not completely stable). As a result, I do not "convert" when it comes to changing the model I have of the world; the nature of my position is such that it adapts to change rather than being felled by it.

I have never converted away from Christianity. There are just so many flavors of it that I have tried a few different ones. I like my own mix most of all and lean toward he gnostics overall. (That is not agnostic but gnostic, there is a big difference.) I definately believe, the power of prayer is an amazing thing and I am living proof. The key word being living. When my mortality slapped me square in the face a couple of years ago I know that my God was with me and saw me through that hell. Yep, one set of footprints in that sand, no doubt. :)

Why, yes, I've converted a lot of things:

cups to teaspoons, Fahrenheit to Celsius, Miles to Kilometers, inches to centimeters, ounces to grams and pints to liters.

Especially pints to liters.

Sorry I'm late.

I won't say I've gone completely from religious to atheist, more that I'v gone from denominational to non-denominational.

I'm what's called a "lapsed Catholic" (once baptized, I'm Catholic FOREVAR!). Over my adolescence I started drifting away from the Church based on some of it's recent failings in my mind. You know what I mean: the handling of contraceptives in Africa, gay-marriage disputes, abortion. I decided that until the Church made a few changes to bring itself into the future, I would "let it go" for a while.

I still believe in a higher power, I still have respect for the faith and what good it has done, and I'll still go to services if I am requested by my family...but for the time being Catholicism and I have "mutually parted ways".

I was raised pretty much ignorant of religion (Mom was an Atheist), but converted to a non-denominational Christian in my early teens. *Then* I converted to a pagan in my early twenties. *Then* I became Agnostic in my thirties, and have pretty much stayed Agnostic since.

I'm pretty sure there's a god - I'm just not certain of it, and I'm also certain it's not the god of the any of the major religions... That's what keeps me Agnostic.

Both. from Roman Catholic to agnostic when I was 11, I think. Then back from agnostic to Roman Catholic when I was 17 or something. Now I don't care. :D

Same apart from Church of England
agnostic till bout 15 then CofE and recently got confirmed :D

I once converted from dijon mustard to french's. It changed my life.

Raised a Christian and practiced my faith frequently. Got to about 13 and started to have doubts so spent a few weeks reading the bible, koran, Bhagivad Gita as well as religious philosophy by writers such as Voltaire, Kant and Hume. Have now realised that there cannot be any truth to it at all, regardless of faith. Still read religious and atheist texts in the hope that I will be convinced back again, I would describe myself as a reluctant atheist.
Have major concerns about the practices and structure of a lot of organised religion and believe is usually does a lot more harm than good, although I do not belive this neccesarily represents the faith itself.
If anyone knows of anything to read on the subject that might interest me i'd be grateful to hear about it.

went to a Church school ,had all the religious rubbish shoved down my throat, and am an athesist.

You should read that. That site is probably the most scholarly and accurate apologetic site I have ever come upon.

That speaks volumes for the state of apologetics...

EDIT: For the record, when 'scholars' discuss someone else's views, they source them (either with reference to a book or by hyperlink if they're online); Holding rarely if ever does so, he often neglects to even name his critics... This kind of behaviour is usually a sure sign of a crank. Holding is a dishonest nut, who relies on misrepresenting his critics while keeping his readers in the dark.

Raised a Christian and practiced my faith frequently. Got to about 13 and started to have doubts so spent a few weeks reading the bible, koran, Bhagivad Gita as well as religious philosophy by writers such as Voltaire, Kant and Hume. Have now realised that there cannot be any truth to it at all, regardless of faith. Still read religious and atheist texts in the hope that I will be convinced back again, I would describe myself as a reluctant atheist.
Have major concerns about the practices and structure of a lot of organised religion and believe is usually does a lot more harm than good, although I do not belive this neccesarily represents the faith itself.
If anyone knows of anything to read on the subject that might interest me i'd be grateful to hear about it.

One of my favorites:

The Power of Myth by Joseph Campbell

also most anything he has written. I have spent my life reading and studying it from all angles. I think until you find it within, it is genuinely a very hard thing to fathom. Once you find it, you won't doubt again. I don't know a good way to explain it, I wish I did. The Gnostic gospels helped me to 'get' it.

One of my favorites:

The Power of Myth by Joseph Campbell

also most anything he has written. I have spent my life reading and studying it from all angles. I think until you find it within, it is genuinely a very hard thing to fathom. Once you find it, you won't doubt again. I don't know a good way to explain it, I wish I did. The Gnostic gospels helped me to 'get' it.

Might i also add the book "The Pig That Wants to be eaten", by "Julian Baggini. As there are a few religious references in it, but it's more geared towards a philosophical point of view. It's got about 100 dilemmas of one type or another with various hypothetical things. Very interesting, but i warn you one or two are a bit wierd.

Raised a Christian and practiced my faith frequently. Got to about 13 and started to have doubts so spent a few weeks reading the bible, koran, Bhagivad Gita as well as religious philosophy by writers such as Voltaire, Kant and Hume. Have now realised that there cannot be any truth to it at all, regardless of faith. Still read religious and atheist texts in the hope that I will be convinced back again, I would describe myself as a reluctant atheist.
Have major concerns about the practices and structure of a lot of organised religion and believe is usually does a lot more harm than good, although I do not belive this neccesarily represents the faith itself.
If anyone knows of anything to read on the subject that might interest me i'd be grateful to hear about it.
If you haven't read any of Stephen Hawking's books, I strongly recommend them. A Brief History Of Time is a nice place to start.

These aren't books on religion, they're books about the universe. I recommend them because you identified as a "reluctant atheist" and you say you "hope to be convinced back." To me, this suggests that you feel that you are missing something because of your atheism, so I figure it will help for you to read books which would remind you of the grace and beauty of the universe around you. Religion is pretty tiny and insignificant in the grand scheme of things...and so is God. ;)

If you haven't read any of Stephen Hawking's books, I strongly recommend them. A Brief History Of Time is a nice place to start.

These aren't books on religion, they're books about the universe. I recommend them because you identified as a "reluctant atheist" and you say you "hope to be convinced back." To me, this suggests that you feel that you are missing something because of your atheism, so I figure it will help for you to read books which would remind you of the grace and beauty of the universe around you. Religion is pretty tiny and insignificant in the grand scheme of things...and so is God. ;)

A great quote--indeed, one of my favorite quotes period-- about the whole "inspiration" thing:

"Is it not enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too?"--Douglas Adams, The Hitchhikers' Guide to the Galaxy

The universe is a place of such breath-taking beauty and wonder; it's mind-blowing if there is a God, and it's mind-blowing if there is not a God. Indeed, I think it's even moreso without a God, because that means that it all came into being by natural processes, that the vast intricacy was formed by natural law. Words can't even express my wonder about this universe we find ourselves in. Oh, The elegant simplicity of it all!

The universe is a place of such breath-taking beauty and wonder; it's mind-blowing if there is a God, and it's mind-blowing if there is not a God. Indeed, I think it's even moreso without a God, because that means that it all came into being by natural processes, that the vast intricacy was formed by natural law. Words can't even express my wonder about this universe we find ourselves in. Oh, The elegant simplicity of it all!

I am always dubious of this claim. On one hand, I feel the same way. When I learn of a new scientific discovery, I feel a little like a bit of the curtain in front of a master painting has been lifted. But on the other hand, I cannot see why I should think this. By definition, there is only one Universe. How can I have standards of beauty for something which is completely unique? It's a little like saying that I'm a beautiful New Limacon. What would an ugly New Limacon look like?

Did Abraham go through and kill Isaac though? And did he do it in a ritualistic manner, like many Canaanite pagan societies would do?

As for the second one, I had never heard of it until now, to be honest. So I researched a bit and found a few nice articles on it. There were a lot from an atheist viewpoint that uses it to criticize the oh-so-evil Judeo-Christian God.

But here is what I get from Christian apologetics:
http://www.tektonics.org/gk/jepthah.html

You should read that. That site is probably the most scholarly and accurate apologetic site I have ever come upon.

That particular link talks about how Jephthah didn't receive a command from God, he didn't intend for a sacrifice to be human, and finally, it more than likely never occurred(the sacrifice that is). And this is all based off what we read in scripture.

So do you want to throw any thing else out there?

Pardon me, I was only answering YOUR question:

Originally Posted by Zilam View Post
Who was mentioned as killing another human as a sacrifice to appease God? The only sacrifice that i can think of is either mentioned by the OT people talking about Pagans doing it, OR the sacrifice of Christ.

So kindly don't get your knickers in a twist because I happen to know off the top of my head two examples of human sacrifice in the Bible that you either forgot or ignored, and which had nothing to do with paganism.

Abraham was asked to sacrifice Isaac and WOULD HAVE, in obedience to God, had he not been stopped and given the ram instead. His intent was clear -- he was commanded and would have done so had God not relented and provided another sacrifice.

Jepthah DID sacrifice his daughter to God, because he had sworn to sacrifice the first living thing that he encountered when he went home if he was given victory. Some think he was NOT stopped because his original rash vow could have callously condemned any innocent human, be it slave or tradesman, that he saw -- and the consequence was the loss of his daughter. I don't know about you, but lying to or going back on your word to God when he doesn't say, "Hey, really, not necessary," struck the ancient Biblical figures -- and most Christians -- as A Bad Thing (tm).

So please, take your foot out of your mouth; you look very silly attacking me when all I did was point out not one but two examples you missed. Oh and minus several millions for style with the snide remarks about atheism and the oh-so-evil Judeo Christian God... nice implication, bad execution, since you're directing that at a Catholic. ZING!

I once converted from dijon mustard to french's. It changed my life.

Obviously, for the worse.

Brown mustard for the win! Yellow mustard for the wimps! :D

Pardon me, I was only answering YOUR question:

So kindly don't get your knickers in a twist because I happen to know off the top of my head two examples of human sacrifice in the Bible that you either forgot or ignored.

Abraham was asked to sacrifice Isaac and WOULD HAVE, in obedience to God, had he not been stopped and given the ram instead. His intent was clear -- he was commanded and would have done so had God not relented and provided another sacrifice.

I agree with all of that except for God relenting. From what I've understood of the story, God had no intention of accepting the sacrifice, rather he was testing Abraham. There are just as many moral qualms that interpretation brings up, too (why would God be so petty?), but I believe it is the more generally accepted one.

I agree with all of that except for God relenting. From what I've understood of the story, God had no intention of accepting the sacrifice, rather he was testing Abraham. There are just as many moral qualms that interpretation brings up, too (why would God be so petty?), but I believe it is the more generally accepted one.

I'll give you that, but it still does not change the fact that God demanded this human sacrifice, and had he not stopped Abraham, would have had it.

I converted from...

BELIEVING I could look at the other side of the issues to KNOWING I could look at the other side of the issues.

BELIEVING that I could tolerate viewpoints radically different than my own to KNOWING that I can tolerate viewpoints radically different from my own

BELIEVING that spammy and fun threads are better than debate threads to KNOWING that spammy and fun threads are better than debate threads

and believe me when I say Knowing IS half the battle. ;)

JuNii, you are GI Joe! ;)
:fluffle:

I converted from...

BELIEVING I could look at the other side of the issues to KNOWING I could look at the other side of the issues.

BELIEVING that I could tolerate viewpoints radically different than my own to KNOWING that I can tolerate viewpoints radically different from my own

BELIEVING that spammy and fun threads are better than debate threads to KNOWING that spammy and fun threads are better than debate threads

and believe me when I say Knowing IS half the battle. ;)

From the same site.

{ Having now been engaged in apologetics for eight years actively and more years than that on the side, I have long since come to a conclusion that I have shared with others, but will now present in a systematic form here for the first time. My conclusion is a warning that is appropriate for any new readers (hence I link this article from my front page) and will be familiar to veteran ones.

I'll sum it up to begin: Whenever you run across any person who criticizes the Bible, claims findings of contradiction or error -- they do not deserve the benefit of the doubt. They have to earn it from you. Here's why.

It doesn't take very long to realize that a thorough understanding of the Bible -- and this would actually apply to any complex work from any culture -- requires specialized knowledge, and a broad range of specialized knowledge in a variety of fields. Obviously the vast majority of believers spend their entire lives doing little more than reading the Bible in English (or whatever native tongue) and importing into its words whatever ideas they derive from their own experiences. This process is very often one of "decontextualizing" -- what I have here called "reading it like it was written yesterday and for you personally." Of course if the church as a whole is locked into this mentality, you may well suspect that critics (whether Skeptics or other) and those in alternate faiths are no better off.

Let's anticipate and toss off the obvious objection: "Why did God make the Bible so hard to understand, then?" It isn't -- none of this keeps a person from grasping the message of the Bible to the extent required to be saved; where the line is to be drawn is upon those who gratuitously assume that such base knowledge allows them to be competent critics of the text, and make that assumption in absolute ignorance of their own lack of knowledge -- what I have elsewhere spoken of in terms of being "unskilled and unaware of it." }

Hypocrisy much?

translation: I'm right, if you criticize me you're wrong, no matter how much logical proof you bring to bear.

...

But here is what I get from Christian apologetics:
http://www.tektonics.org/gk/jepthah.html

You should read that. That site is probably the most scholarly and accurate apologetic site I have ever come upon.

That particular link talks about how Jephthah didn't receive a command from God, he didn't intend for a sacrifice to be human, and finally, it more than likely never occurred(the sacrifice that is). And this is all based off what we read in scripture.

So do you want to throw any thing else out there?

From the same site.

{ Having now been engaged in apologetics for eight years actively and more years than that on the side, I have long since come to a conclusion that I have shared with others, but will now present in a systematic form here for the first time. My conclusion is a warning that is appropriate for any new readers (hence I link this article from my front page) and will be familiar to veteran ones.

I'll sum it up to begin: Whenever you run across any person who criticizes the Bible, claims findings of contradiction or error -- they do not deserve the benefit of the doubt. They have to earn it from you. Here's why.

It doesn't take very long to realize that a thorough understanding of the Bible -- and this would actually apply to any complex work from any culture -- requires specialized knowledge, and a broad range of specialized knowledge in a variety of fields. Obviously the vast majority of believers spend their entire lives doing little more than reading the Bible in English (or whatever native tongue) and importing into its words whatever ideas they derive from their own experiences. This process is very often one of "decontextualizing" -- what I have here called "reading it like it was written yesterday and for you personally." Of course if the church as a whole is locked into this mentality, you may well suspect that critics (whether Skeptics or other) and those in alternate faiths are no better off.

Let's anticipate and toss off the obvious objection: "Why did God make the Bible so hard to understand, then?" It isn't -- none of this keeps a person from grasping the message of the Bible to the extent required to be saved; where the line is to be drawn is upon those who gratuitously assume that such base knowledge allows them to be competent critics of the text, and make that assumption in absolute ignorance of their own lack of knowledge -- what I have elsewhere spoken of in terms of being "unskilled and unaware of it." }

Hypocrisy much?

Obviously, for the worse.

Brown mustard for the win! Yellow mustard for the wimps! :D
Bah, it's not real mustard unless it makes you sneeze. :P

I converted from...

BELIEVING I could look at the other side of the issues to KNOWING I could look at the other side of the issues.

BELIEVING that I could tolerate viewpoints radically different than my own to KNOWING that I can tolerate viewpoints radically different from my own

BELIEVING that spammy and fun threads are better than debate threads to KNOWING that spammy and fun threads are better than debate threads
*shrugs* Technically, doesn't "knowing" entail "believing" as well? Like, I know 17 added to 6 makes 23, and I also happen to believe that 23 is the sum of 6 and 17. Sure, you could believe in stuff you don't actually know and vice versa, but that strikes me as kind of a silly idea.

Or am I being too serious?

Well, yes, but he wouldn't have not stopped him. When you're God, you get to do things like that. :)

:fluffle:

I'll give you that, but it still does not change the fact that God demanded this human sacrifice, and had he not stopped Abraham, would have had it.

Well, yes, but he wouldn't have not stopped him. When you're God, you get to do things like that. :)

Kat, where is that story of Jepthah? can't find any reference to it.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Judges%2011&version=9;

It's Judges 11

30And Jephthah vowed a vow unto the LORD, and said, If thou shalt without fail deliver the children of Ammon into mine hands,

31Then it shall be, that whatsoever cometh forth of the doors of my house to meet me, when I return in peace from the children of Ammon, shall surely be the LORD's, and I will offer it up for a burnt offering.

32So Jephthah passed over unto the children of Ammon to fight against them; and the LORD delivered them into his hands.

33And he smote them from Aroer, even till thou come to Minnith, even twenty cities, and unto the plain of the vineyards, with a very great slaughter. Thus the children of Ammon were subdued before the children of Israel.

34And Jephthah came to Mizpeh unto his house, and, behold, his daughter came out to meet him with timbrels and with dances: and she was his only child; beside her he had neither son nor daughter.

35And it came to pass, when he saw her, that he rent his clothes, and said, Alas, my daughter! thou hast brought me very low, and thou art one of them that trouble me: for I have opened my mouth unto the LORD, and I cannot go back.

36And she said unto him, My father, if thou hast opened thy mouth unto the LORD, do to me according to that which hath proceeded out of thy mouth; forasmuch as the LORD hath taken vengeance for thee of thine enemies, even of the children of Ammon.

37And she said unto her father, Let this thing be done for me: let me alone two months, that I may go up and down upon the mountains, and bewail my virginity, I and my fellows.

38And he said, Go. And he sent her away for two months: and she went with her companions, and bewailed her virginity upon the mountains.

39And it came to pass at the end of two months, that she returned unto her father, who did with her according to his vow which he had vowed: and she knew no man.

Kat, where is that story of Jepthah? can't find any reference to it.

Bah, it's not real mustard unless it makes you sneeze. :P and here all this time I thought it was Pepper I was using... :p

*shrugs* Technically, doesn't "knowing" entail "believing" as well? Like, I know 17 added to 6 makes 23, and I also happen to believe that 23 is the sum of 6 and 17. Sure, you could believe in stuff you don't actually know and vice versa, but that strikes me as kind of a silly idea.

Or am I being too serious?
ah, you can believe in what you know in certainty, but can you believe in what you don't know in certainty?

translation: I'm right, if you criticize me you're wrong, no matter how much logical proof you bring to bear.

What I saw was that one should not criticize the Bible unless one truly knows it. That of course is debateable, but Zilam is fine with that site's preconditions, yet never has qualms on attacking Islam.

What I saw was that one should not criticize the Bible unless one truly knows it. That of course is debateable, but Zilam is fine with that site's preconditions, yet never has qualms on attacking Islam.

The writer of the essay is setting himself up as an expert, one who knows the bible, purportedly. Therefore, he seems to say that that since most mere mortals are not expert, they cannot discuss it. A point, which as you say, is debatable.

Well, yes, but he wouldn't have not stopped him. When you're God, you get to do things like that. :)
You can do just about anything you like, in fact. Nobody will question your logic. You're God, after all. You set the example; you don't necessarily have to follow it all the time; and if folks don't understand, they can just stamp it with the old "God Works In Mysterious Ways" ink whatnot and call everyone who doubts an infidel.

and here all this time I thought it was Pepper I was using... :p
Well, yeah, pepper makes (some people) sneeze, but it doesn't clear up a cold in quite the same way.

ah, you can believe in what you know in certainty, but can you believe in what you don't know in certainty?
You can, if you're particularly susceptible, or are not so enlightened as you or I (or anyone else who might possibly see this thread). ;)

The writer of the essay is setting himself up as an expert, one who knows the bible, purportedly. Therefore, he seems to say that that since most mere mortals are not expert, they cannot discuss it. A point, which as you say, is debatable.

Well, the title was essentially that critics must be able to prove themselves correct (they are not to be assumed correct).

That is the writer's premise, that the Bible should not be judged except by "knowing" hands. If we remove that premise, it would be very easty to destroy his arguments.

So if we are to accept this site, would it not be hypocritical for someone (cough cough) to judge the Quran without being an expert?

Well, the title was essentially that critics must be able to prove themselves correct (they are not to be assumed correct).

That is the writer's premise, that the Bible should not be judged except by "knowing" hands. If we remove that premise, it would be very easty to destroy his arguments.

So if we are to accept this site, would it not be hypocritical for someone (cough cough) to judge the Quran without being an expert?

Quite. Unless that person sat down and studied every last word of the Quran, preferably in the original language, and studied every scholarly reference on it.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Judges%2011&version=9;

It's Judges 11

Edit: I know it doesn't dispute the fact that it happened...

the Lord did NOT demand the sacrifice. Jephthah offered the first living thing as his sacrifice and so while he did win the battle, his line ended. since family is important in those times, it can be argued that Jephthah was punished because he died childless.

now the question. did Jephthah MEAN to sacrifice his Daughter or perhaps his wife. if you look at the 31st passage, 31Then it shall be, that whatsoever cometh forth of the doors of my house to meet me, when I return in peace from the children of Ammon, shall surely be the LORD's, and I will offer it up for a burnt offering.

yet he knew he had no sons, no other daughters, so perhaps he was gambling on his wife coming out to greet him... rather funny that he specifically said "whatsoever cometh forth of the DOORS OF MY HOUSE to meet me...

sounds like he was attempting to use the Lord to free himself from his wife.

so the Lord Took his Daughter instead... but what of Jephthah? if you look how others were rewarded, riches and LARGE families. yet he died childless. so was he rewarded or actually punished?

... that could be an interesting debate... :p

Quite. Unless that person sat down and studied every last word of the Quran, preferably in the original language, and studied every scholarly reference on it.

Of course every "expert" on the bible has studied it in its original language and every scholarly reference on it. I find it funny that people will use biblical arguments without actually READING the bible, let alone studying it, and then expect to be taken seriously.

Of course every "expert" on the bible has studied it in its original language and every scholarly reference on it. I find it funny that people will use biblical arguments without actually READING the bible, let alone studying it, and then expect to be taken seriously.

There's a quote of J.K. Galbraith's that I'm fond of. I forget exactly how it goes, but it's to the effect, "The Wealth of Nations is one of the three books, the others being Das Kapital and the Bible, that people feel entitled to cite without ever having read."
It seems that, as ironic as very unconstitutional it may be, forcing people to attend a seminary would decrease the support for fundamentalism in the US. It's the same reason Luther wanted people to read the Bible, and the Church was opposed to it for many years.

You can, if you're particularly susceptible, or are not so enlightened as you or I (or anyone else who might possibly see this thread). ;)
Not just the susceptible... but everyone does.
Do you really know for certain how the medicine perscribed to you by your doctor works?

Or are you putting your faith in your physician's education and his learning/retention ability?

Forgetting that he too is human and prone to mistakes.

Do you have faith in the integrity of your car, plane, train, boat, building etc... without testing it to your satisfaction knowing full well that the materials, labor, construction, etc... are all done by the lowest bidder?

or do you test everything until you know for certainty? ;)

Of course every "expert" on the bible has studied it in its original language and every scholarly reference on it. I find it funny that people will use biblical arguments without actually READING the bible, let alone studying it, and then expect to be taken seriously.

There's a quote of J.K. Galbraith's that I'm fond of. I forget exactly how it goes, but it's to the effect, "The Wealth of Nations is one of the three books, the others being Das Kapital and the Bible, that people feel entitled to cite without ever having read."
It seems that, as ironic and very unconstitutional it may be, forcing people to attend a seminary would decrease the support for fundamentalism in the US. It's the same reason Luther wanted people to read the Bible, and the Church was opposed to it for many years.

*snip*
or do you test everything until you know for certainty? ;)

Answer to all those questions is no -- I don't have much faith in anything I use, but I don't really make certain either -- but then, I'm also incredibly paranoid and fear everything conceivable -- from car and airplane accidents, to the ceiling of my house collapsing on me because substandard nails were used. >.<

Now I'm going to bed, and hoping that a wasp will not crawl into my ear while I sleep.

Of course every "expert" on the bible has studied it in its original language and every scholarly reference on it. I find it funny that people will use biblical arguments without actually READING the bible, let alone studying it, and then expect to be taken seriously.

Except in this case, this is what the essayist stated: you can't criticize it unless you're an expert.

Ergo, that should apply to other holy books if that's one's attitude.

Me, I have no problem criticizing it with a decent but not expert knowledge. ;)

Quite. Unless that person sat down and studied every last word of the Quran, preferably in the original language, and studied every scholarly reference on it.

:)

And so we see eye to eye.

:)

And so we see eye to eye.

I should clarify: IF one has stated one should not criticise the bible unless one is an expert, THEN their attitude should be that one should not criticise other holy texts unless one is similarly expert.

As I said above -- I have no problem criticizing the Bible, though I am not a Biblical scholar.

;) You'll note I don't criticize the Quran, only because I have not read enough of it to have a working knowledge of it. Were that to change, I'm sure I'd have plenty to say. ;)

Answer to all those questions is no -- I don't have much faith in anything I use, but I don't really make certain either -- but then, I'm also incredibly paranoid and fear everything conceivable -- from car and airplane accidents, to the ceiling of my house collapsing on me because substandard nails were used. >.<

Now I'm going to bed, and hoping that a wasp will not crawl into my ear while I sleep.

:D
Now don't be giving out any ideas...

Answer to all those questions is no -- I don't have much faith in anything I use, but I don't really make certain either -- but then, I'm also incredibly paranoid and fear everything conceivable -- from car and airplane accidents, to the ceiling of my house collapsing on me because substandard nails were used. >.<

Now I'm going to bed, and hoping that a wasp will not crawl into my ear while I sleep.

...

Binkley's Phobia...

Monster from closet: I got it! the most horrifying thing yet!
Binkley: What?
MfC: Cockroaches on your ceiling!
Binkley: What? how is that scary!
MfC: CLUMBSY cockroaches on your ceiling!
Binkley: oh... now I'm scared!
MfC: (to reader) guess who sleeps with his mouth open! :D

Except in this case, this is what the essayist stated: you can't criticize it unless you're an expert.

Ergo, that should apply to other holy books if that's one's attitude.

Me, I have no problem criticizing it with a decent but not expert knowledge. ;)

I agree. I have, as you say, a decent but no expert knowledge of the bible, much to the surprise of some. I feel free to criticize it at will, but I also feel obligated to listen to those who DO have expert knowledge (my Father-in-law for example). however, I am not obligated to listen to those who have less knowledge than I, or who use what is essentially an out-dated text to tell me I am going to hell.

I am always dubious of this claim. On one hand, I feel the same way. When I learn of a new scientific discovery, I feel a little like a bit of the curtain in front of a master painting has been lifted. But on the other hand, I cannot see why I should think this. By definition, there is only one Universe. How can I have standards of beauty for something which is completely unique? It's a little like saying that I'm a beautiful New Limacon. What would an ugly New Limacon look like?

I strongly disagree. While there is only one universe (that we are aware of-- there are some interesting multiverse theories out there-- even at least one, that I am aware of, that posits a sort of Darwinian evolution of universes... but I digress.), I would still say that we can call it beautiful-- even if we cannot realize why we should think this, nor can we compare it to another. If it turns out that it's all completely ugly-- by the standards of how a universe can look-- that just means that other possible universes would be of exceptional beauty.

However, it so happens that I can tell you why you should consider the universe beautiful-- and that is that you feel it to be so. By definition, if you think something is beautiful, then it is--to you, anyway. Maybe not to somebody else.

For beauty is defined by the observer; the mere thought confirms its own truth. Were there nobody to observe the universe, then it could not be beautiful, because beauty would not exist.

I agree. I have, as you say, a decent but no expert knowledge of the bible, much to the surprise of some. I feel free to criticize it at will, but I also feel obligated to listen to those who DO have expert knowledge (my Father-in-law for example). however, I am not obligated to listen to those who have less knowledge than I, or who use what is essentially an out-dated text to tell me I am going to hell.

Meh, I wouldn't presume. Something about hubris, and not knowing God's plan and all that. ;) (Aside from just being plain rude.)

From Catholic to athiest to agnostic to Catholic

Meh, I wouldn't presume. Something about hubris, and not knowing God's plan and all that. ;) (Aside from just being plain rude.)

I wasn't trying to imply that you would. I'm sorry if it seems like I was. Like my wife keeps reminding me: don't let the few bad xtians color my opinion of all.:)

Anyway, I think we were agreeing with each other on some point.

My parents were not religious & I grew up with a general lack of religion or belief in higher powers. I have remained that way ever since.

What I saw was that one should not criticize the Bible unless one truly knows it. That of course is debateable, but Zilam is fine with that site's preconditions, yet never has qualms on attacking Islam.

Of course I have no qualms with attacking Islam. It is one of the most vile things in all of humanity. I'm just sad to see so many good people, such as yourself and a few others on here, be held back by such a repressive ungodly system.

How is it ungodly? Let me show you; Your god says that he creates hate between christians, he wants his believers to kill non believers, he choose a very vile man to be his prophet, he chooses who he wants to enter jannah and who he wants to go to hell, he is a deceiver, his word can be changed by mere men, and his heaven is chalk full of sex. Is that what God should be like? I, frankly, have a much high standard for my God. I would not follow, or even choose to believe in God, if I didn't think that he was pure, righteous, fair, and so forth. By no means am I attacking you, or any muslim. I have studied Islam in depth, and am learning more and more each day about it. I know how hard it is to listen to someone who seems like they are bashing you, but I say only what I have said because I don't want to see anyone more good kids stay in such a bad religion.

The writer of the essay is setting himself up as an expert, one who knows the bible, purportedly. Therefore, he seems to say that that since most mere mortals are not expert, they cannot discuss it. A point, which as you say, is debatable.

I don't mind people discussing the bible, even when they don't know much about it. I don't mind people discussing my faith or having different opinions. The only time my feathers get ruffled is when they don't want to discuss, they just want an excuse to vent and attack your character.
But other than that, as long as people keep an open mind. Its all cool.

Christianity -> Wicca -> Shamanism

Christianity -> Wicca -> Shamanism

Ohh wot sort? I mean the last two, the first one don't really interest me.

Yes, we do believe in the Baptism of the Holy Spirit which, in Mormon practice, occurs at the time of Confirmation, which typically comes shortly (or immediately) after the Bapistm by Immersion.

This, (and I believe that we have this idea in common) enables the Holy Spirit to give gifts, with speaking in tongues being one of them.

I would need to go back over my Church history, but I believe there may have been occasional incidents of what you describe, but I'm not sure. If you're interested, I'll let you know what I find.

I admit that when I've seen people erupt in tongues, as you describe it, it makes me a bit uncomfortable, probably because it's so different from my own experience. (As I noted earlier, prior to being a Mormon I was raised Catholic, where stuff like that is unheard of.)

Note to everybody else: If the Pentacostal and the Mormon can have a pleasant discussion about Scripture and religion, maybe there's hope for everybody else :D


Oh okay cool! We don't really believe that baptism in the spirit comes after water baptism. I was baptised in the spirit about a week after I decided to follow Christ, and only got baptised in water last year. Mainly because I thought water baptism and being christened were the same thing. But once I studied it more, I decided that making the decision for myself was very important.

So do you believe in the other spiritual gifts as well? Like prophecy etc?

:) I'd be interested. I don't know very much about the mormon church.

And yeah, tongues can be a bit confronting. When I first went to church, I was convinced it was a cult. But there are so many different styles of expression within the christian community. After I sampled a few of the others e.g. Catholic, Anglican, Baptist...I decided that the pentecostal church suited me the best.

Yay for hope! (Can I be really pentecostal now??) AMEN to respect!