NationStates Jolt Archive

I read somewhere earlier on in the week(sorry forgot where) a report about how women regard makeup. It tells how for the majority of women, wearing makeup makes them feel better.

Having lived with a real women for the past 20 years, I can readily agree with this, but I wonder on the history of this mindset(meme?).
Was that the case for those pre-war women, or even further back in history, or is it a more modern phenomenon?

wearing makeup makes me feel more like a woman.

For as long as women have been expected to wear make-up, it's probably made them feel better to do so. Non-conformity by women has traditionally been punished very harshly.

It's also nice to feel attractive, and if you live in a society where women must wear make-up, or fancy hair-dos, or uncomfortable shoes, or other "feminine" items in order to be viewed as attractive, it's no surprise to find that women tend to feel better about themselves when they get dolled up accordingly.

It's also nice to feel attractive, and if you live in a society where women must wear make-up, or fancy hair-dos, or uncomfortable shoes, or other "feminine" items in order to be viewed as attractive, it's no surprise to find that women tend to feel better about themselves when they get dolled up accordingly.

Personally I hate seeing people doing that, especially the uncomfortable shoes, if you have to wreck your feet to feel/be attractive something's wrong. I just don't get either sides view of all this :confused:

For as long as women have been expected to wear make-up, it's probably made them feel better to do so. Non-conformity by women has traditionally been punished very harshly.

It's also nice to feel attractive, and if you live in a society where women must wear make-up, or fancy hair-dos, or uncomfortable shoes, or other "feminine" items in order to be viewed as attractive, it's no surprise to find that women tend to feel better about themselves when they get dolled up accordingly.

I would question whether or not women are 'expected' to wear makeup, but that is not really the issue I was thinking about. It's purely whether or not the mindset of 'it makes me feel better' is a relatively new one.

I would question whether or not women are 'expected' to wear makeup, but that is not really the issue I was thinking about. It's purely whether or not the mindset of 'it makes me feel better' is a relatively new one.

No, it's as old as the hills and not only can it make you feel better, it can imply you're a better person.

wearing makeup makes me feel more like a woman.

Wearing makeup makes me feel more like a clown. :)

Personally I hate seeing people doing that, especially the uncomfortable shoes, if you have to wreck your feet to feel/be attractive something's wrong. I just don't get either sides view of all this :confused:

Some actually have surgery to improve the fit of those things. :eek:

I would question whether or not women are 'expected' to wear makeup, but that is not really the issue I was thinking about. It's purely whether or not the mindset of 'it makes me feel better' is a relatively new one.

I don't think it is, really. I came across make-up "recipes" from Ancient Egypt, once.
The difference these days and in the Western world is that only women wear make-up. That used to be very different, throughout most of history and most cultures it would be both men and women painting their faces to make themselves look more attractive to the other sex.

I wear make-up, although not overly much (most people wouldn't even notice I wear any, my BF never does), and yes, I do it cause it makes me feel better. Think of it like a little mask, so small people will hardly notice it, but it does make you feel better not having to show your real face all the time.

I achieve the same thing with glasses. I hate make-up, wearing it makes me feel insecure and I hate that. I prefer to be aux natural, and I find that women who wear more than mascara or a pale lip gloss to look like clowns. My sister-in-law over does it and it looks so horribly tacky.

I would question whether or not women are 'expected' to wear makeup,

They are, to a large extent. The catch is that you're supposed to wear make-up without anybody really noticing you're wearing make-up, because if anybody notices the amount of time it takes for you to make yourself look pretty then you are "high maintenance" (which is bad).


but that is not really the issue I was thinking about. It's purely whether or not the mindset of 'it makes me feel better' is a relatively new one.
That's what I answered. No, it's not new, because the expectation that women are supposed to wear make-up is not new.

That's what I answered. No, it's not new, because the expectation that women are supposed to wear make-up is not new.

Well, the expectation that ONLY women are supposed to wear it is rather new, though.

Well, the expectation that ONLY women are supposed to wear it is rather new, though.
Well, it's also a Western-centric sort of thing, too.

Well, it's also a Western-centric sort of thing, too.

Again, women only yes ;)

I'm pretty sure I remember African tribes in which the males would paint their faces, and if I remember correctly, Indian men will do wear eye-makeup (basically just Kohl, really, I think, but still).
And don't Yanomamo men wear make-up, too?

Wearing makeup makes me feel more like a clown. :)

"send in the clowns". phase 1 of assualt, paint faces, phase 2, make balloon animals, phase 3 ???, phase 4 celebrate victory with juggling.
but back to topic, i think it links back to women wanting to impress men with jewelry etc.
However some tribes wore face paint and some in various places in the world still do as part of a ceremony, but in older times (say 300BC to 300AD at a guess) men wore blue "Wode" in Sotland to terrify their enemies, i'm guessing it was the Picts, i'm sure Gallic forces also wore paint to make themselves look formidable, which might link into why some people are afraid of clowns (genetics perhaps?).
Um to answer the question. Women would find other ways to glamorise themselves if they couldn't afford make-up, seems a waste to me, but then i've never worn make-up so maybe i don't know what i'm missing.;)

I just do the minimalist thing. A little tinted lip balm, some eyeliner and that usually about it - maybe more for a night out. I try to take decent care of my skin in lieu of covering up problems. I’m no beauty – and all the makeup in the world isn’t going to help that. Besides, I’m approaching 40 so I try to be genuine instead of looking like I’m trying to recapture my 20s. What you see is what you get. No surprises in the morning here.


Regarding the OP -- I feel better when I'm not preoccupied with how good or bad I look. Sometimes that means less, sometimes perhaps a little more. If I feel bad about how I look, adding makeup doesn't usually improve the situation.

I do wear some makeup, though it's pretty light. I feel better about myself days I remember to. Mostly I use a powder foundation just to even out my skin, and I exfoliate lightly before wearing it. Other than that, a little eyeshadow, a little blush, a little mascara, and I'm on my way. I know it sounds like a lot, but it's never taken me more than five minutes to apply because (with the exception of the mascara) it's all powders.

Unless I'm going to a rock concert and the goal is full Goth. Then I'll be in front of a mirror for over forty minutes.

Um to answer the question. Women would find other ways to glamorise themselves if they couldn't afford make-up, seems a waste to me, but then i've never worn make-up so maybe i don't know what i'm missing.;)
Lots of women can afford make-up and don't choose to wear it. Lots of women also don't choose to "glamorize" themselves on a regular basis.

I should know.

I'm currently at about a 7 on my Standard Glamorousness Scale, because this morning I took the trouble of pulling my hair back after I ran a comb through it, my socks match, and I'm wearing pants that aren't jeans.

They are, to a large extent. The catch is that you're supposed to wear make-up without anybody really noticing you're wearing make-up, because if anybody notices the amount of time it takes for you to make yourself look pretty then you are "high maintenance" (which is bad).


Exactly right- it would cease to work if it was too obvious. Cosmetics for beauty purposes (as opposed to face painting for ritual purposes) has always been a mostly female thing, designed to "trick" the male mind into presupposing a higher level of health/youth/fertility in the female. Not much different from the sexually selective displays of many birds, other than the reversal of the sex roles. Rouge and mascara are nothing more than the Naked Ape analogue to bright tail plumage.

Interestingly, researchers have found that birds will actually prefer artificial birds with features so exaggerated that they don't exist on real birds- a bird may prefer a model bird with a bigger, brighter bill than a real bird would actually have, over a very attractive real bird. Human males work the same way.

Exactly right- it would cease to work if it was too obvious. Cosmetics for beauty purposes (as opposed to face painting for ritual purposes) has always been a mostly female thing,

No. As has already been mentioned, there have been many times and many cultures in which make-up was not exclusively for women. It is actually only pretty recently, and only in certain regions that make-up has been perceived as definitively "feminine."


Interestingly, researchers have found that birds will actually prefer artificial birds with features so exaggerated that they don't exist on real birds- a bird may prefer a model bird with a bigger, brighter bill than a real bird would actually have, over a very attractive real bird. Human males work the same way.
Again, no. Human males do not all work this way, nor is this exclusive to human males, nor do all human males or all human females prefer the same traits.

Some human males like the appearance of women who are wearing make-up. Other human males do not. Some human males don't find any human females attractive at all.

No. As has already been mentioned, there have been many times and many cultures in which make-up was not exclusively for women. It is actually only pretty recently, and only in certain regions that make-up has been perceived as definitively "feminine.".


Most of the time, when used for sexual attractiveness purposes and not for ritual purposes, (religious and war face painting, for example) it's been feminine. The bible mentions eye shadow, the Q'uran practically drools over women with large, dark eyes.

Again, no. Human males do not all work this way, nor is this exclusive to human males, nor do all human males or all human females prefer the same traits.
Some human males like the appearance of women who are wearing make-up. Other human males do not. Some human males don't find any human females attractive at all.

And sometimes it rains in the Sahara, and sometimes the longshot horse wins, but the odd exceptions are not a challenge to the general paradigm. There are even male ducks that pursue other male ducks. The fact that there are always some people who occupy the far sides of a bell curve means very little. As a rule, male ducks are interested in female ducks, especially those portraying various qualities of femaleness and duckness. If you like, you can mentally add "in general, a strong majority, not discounting the fact that there are exceptions to that majority who shall in no way be considered discriminated against even though I am leaving them out of discussion of general proclivities", if it will make you feel better. The simple fact is, regardless of culture, appearance of youth, health, and fertility in females is sexually attractive, because evolution built us that way. Sure, exceptions exist. There have always been exceptions. Exception is one of the necessary conditions for evolution- variability, selection, and a means to pass on selected traits. So, we can assume in any generation there will always be a range of behavior. But, what's the mode? How does the species function in general?

I only wear makeup when I have to (as far as cosmetic makeup) because I don't generally think it's needed. I can't see much of a purpose for it. Most days I wear mascara and lipgloss just so people don't ask me if I'm "under the weather" :rolleyes: that's right, a woman would only choose not to cover her face in crap if she were somehow incapacitated.

As far as when it's needed, mostly when taking pictures (I'm really pale so the flash washes me out) or when I am on stage (the lights wash me out).

I nearly always wear some form of costume makeup when clowning, even if it's only big purple fake eyelashes or a bit of stuff around my eyes.

Most of the time, when used for sexual attractiveness purposes and not for ritual purposes, (religious and war face painting, for example) it's been feminine. The bible mentions eye shadow, the Q'uran practically drools over women with large, dark eyes.



Eyeshadow in biblical times was actually worn by both sexes. Egyptians were using it, too. Check out those old paintings on tomb- and temple walls, both men and women have these dark black lines around the eyes.

Yeah, cultures have changed through history to say "what is the norm" for the attraction game.

On a side note, how many females, that have mention wearing minimal makeup, realize that just todays "norm"?

I don't wear make up. I was absolutely forbidden until I was 18, so I never got used to the daily routine. I also have great skin. I don't want to cover that up.

Well I posted this on another forum, a slightly umm more serious one and this was about the best reply I got:

Oh <real name removed>, you've gone and done it now. We're going to have to discuss the differences between men and women, which always earns me an ear burning or
two from someone who finds my views sexist. Ah well, let's on with it then...

The feminine mystique is the ultimate power of women in intra-genderal dynamics. Being an attractive, alluring woman is an art form, honed and refined through thousands of years of human culture. Siddartha's time with
the courtesan explored sophisticated seduction, and the rituals which are involved in that. I see the same rituals enacted by my own lovely counterpart, and the great lengths she goes to in perpetuating the theatre
of feminine beauty. Countless women I have talked to discuss their participation in this theatre, and of the sense of confidence or differences in presence each costume or role entails. There are myriad choices every day
in presentation for environment, and although that presentation involves a lot more than make up or choice of outfits, I am told that those accoutrements help provide a psychological foundation for the role being played.

I don't in any way mean to intimate that these roles are false or deceptive; all humans have various modes of operation which change as appropriate from
one social context to another. It simply seems to be the case that with women, there is a visual component to that social mode which is an integral, or at least, important, factor in how they FEEL about that role, which is
the psychological component that seems to differ in the majority of men.
While men do have similar "uniforms" they wear for the various roles, it seems to more commonly be expressed through material posession, having the best or biggest "tools for the job", as it were. While this is clearly a
manifestation of our innate phallo-centrism, in practice, it creates a dynamic where we show up with the fastest car, fullest wallet, biggest house, or biggest penis, and women show up in their grandest performances, with physical attributes packaged in the most flattering way possible, and physical presence amped up in subtle ways designed to draw the eye and interest.

In the end, our motivations and behaviours really haven't changed that much from our cave dwelling ancestors. Our expressions of those motivations have simply become more refined and complex. Modern make up goes far beyond rouge and lip color, with casual temporary plastic surgery available for those with even a modest amount of disposable income. Dermal fillers and strategic
use of Botox allow any woman to have more sensuous lips, smoother lines, and an overall younger appearance, (the primal signal for fertile, calling upon the primal male desire for procreation). As technology develops further, make up as we know it will likely disappear entirely, replaced by designer gene therapy treatments, and home dermal modification kits.

What won't change is the basic dynamic of male / female interaction, and the roles we play within that dynamic. There is a psychological pay off to a woman for engaging in behaviour she feels makes her more attractive, because
evolutionarily, women who took extra steps to be appear more desirable, and were happy about it, were more likely to be mated with, and perpetuate their genetic line. No matter how genteel society may deem itself, our core evolutionary values will not change as long as we are *Homo Sapiens.*

Having lived with a real women for the past 20 years, I can readily agree with this, but I wonder on the history of this mindset(meme?).
Was that the case for those pre-war women, or even further back in history, or is it a more modern phenomenon?In ancient Egypt both men and women wore make-up, and it was important enough for them to riot over (well, ok, go on strike).

I don't wear make up. I was absolutely forbidden until I was 18, so I never got used to the daily routine. I also have great skin. I don't want to cover that up.

I was heavily encouraged by my mother to wear it. She would frequently try to put that hideous glop on me despite my protestations. She gave up once it became clear it was an uphill battle.

I too have great skin, and I think it comes from just keeping my skin clean by not piling on the make-up and washing daily.

Personally I hate seeing people doing that, especially the uncomfortable shoes, if you have to wreck your feet to feel/be attractive something's wrong. I just don't get either sides view of all this :confused:

Plus, you know, what heels are supposed to do to the ass (as I'm often told is their point) is cool and all, but it's kind of like putting a bow on a Ferrari...

I like the sans makeup look, but I've been fooled into thinking made up was not made up, and that probably takes a while.

Which doesn't seem fair, since most of the time I can barely be bothered to shave.

Though come to think of it, the heavily made up don't really 'talk' to me anyway, which now all of a sudden seems reasonable-it's relative effort. Sloppy bitches with sloppy bitches...

Wearing make-up makes me feel bad. I can barely stand wearing lip balm, and I only do that because last week my lip started bleeding from being too dry, so I needed to start wearing it.

I dislike excessive makeup. It looks so fake and unnecessary. I think people should have the self-confidence to be themselves. Taking care of your skin and hair is one thing, but masking yourself completely is just...egh. Subtlety is the key, or just without.

Same with high heels. My friends often complain on a night that their shoes are hurting their feet, but when asked why they are wearing them then, they have no answer.

I don't wear the shit. It's stupid, uncomfortable, and makes me fell like I've got paint all over my face.

Eyeliner is about the only make-up I find attractive on a woman.

Well, there's been a lot of talk about men wearing make up so I might as well ask it: what do the women of NS think about men wearing mascara/eye-shadow? I know a few guys who wear it occasionally, and my female friends seem to be fairly evenly divided on the subject.

Oh, and to avoid accusations of threadjacking, as a guy:
-I find women wearing too much make-up hideous
-self-confidence and joie de vivre are more attractive than looks anyway
-I'd rather spend an evening with a woman who's fun to be with and is wearing sensible shoes than an attractive idiot who's in constant pain and can't move at anything faster than a hobble because of their ridiculous footwear.

I make no claims to be typical of all men though. :p

I don't know, variations of makeup have been around for freakin ages. Women would basically poison themselves by putting on makeup that was made of toxic things just to be able to wear makeup. AND might I add, men wore makeup too. It doesn't happen to be generally fashionable for men to do so right now, but it hasn't always been that way and it will probably change again.

Woah~ Wearing make up makes me feel like a whore... it also makes me feel like I have a dozen neon signs pointed at my face. I could only be wearing concealer and browns so flesh colored they almost aren't there and I'll still feel this way.

Well, there's been a lot of talk about men wearing make up so I might as well ask it: what do the women of NS think about men wearing mascara/eye-shadow? I know a few guys who wear it occasionally, and my female friends seem to be fairly evenly divided on the subject.

I think it's totally up to any individual what they wear or don't wear. I've seen men wearing eye makeup who I thought were totally hot with it and guys who I thought looked silly. In the end, like with most make-up, that was probably a matter of them putting it on wrong/too heavily or using the wrong colors.

Personally, I like to wear a little bit of make-up. For very special occasions, I might go all-out and have my make-up done. Dependence on it for self-confidence is a bad thing, but I don't see wearing make-up as having any more of an inherent problem than wearing flattering clothing or having a flattering haircut.

Maybe this is the right place to ask two things I've always wondered but never had the guts to ask when standing face to face with a woman wearing these kinds of makeup.

What is the point of eyeshadow, how is a dark miscoloring of the skin around the eyes supposed to look healthy and attractive?

Is lip gloss supposed to make the lips look like they are made of plastic and how is that supposed to be attractive?

It seems like it's becoming more okay for men to be concerned about their looks and the cosmetics industry are pushing skin care for men now. Give it another decade and they'll start marketing makeup for men.

I wish men could be elaborate with long hair. Sometimes I'm bored with my ponytail and feel like trying something else but cutting it short would be too permanent (it takes forever to grow back) and any long hairstyle other then ponytail or free is like a skirt, a man wearing it would be so wrong it's awkward.

I wish men could be elaborate with long hair. Sometimes I'm bored with my ponytail and feel like trying something else but cutting it short would be too permanent (it takes forever to grow back) and any long hairstyle other then ponytail or free is like a skirt, a man wearing it would be so wrong it's awkward.

That didn't stop Flock of Seagulls...

What is the point of eyeshadow, how is a dark miscoloring of the skin around the eyes supposed to look healthy and attractive?

Good question, maybe it has something to do with creating contrast between the eyes and the skin around them to make them look bigger.

Is lip gloss supposed to make the lips look like they are made of plastic and how is that supposed to be attractive?


I heard that lip stick (and I assume lip gloss) serve the purpose of making the womans lips look moist which would be attractive to men because it is supposed to be a sign that she is sexually aroused. It could be compared with the effect of a woman making her lips wet with her tongue, which is also seen as sexy.

But yeah, I'm a guy so I far from an expert.

But yeah, I'm a guy so I far from an expert.

Just because I'm a chick doesn't mean I know the first thing about make-up. You probably know more than I do. All I know is it makes you look like a painted whore.

Make up has to be the biggest turn off in the world.

My GF seldom wears the stuff. She says it gives her a rash. And she certainly doesn't wear those stupid shoes with high heels (though she jokes that they'd make good weapons when she's with strange characters).

I read somewhere earlier on in the week(sorry forgot where) a report about how women regard makeup. It tells how for the majority of women, wearing makeup makes them feel better.

Having lived with a real women for the past 20 years, I can readily agree with this, but I wonder on the history of this mindset(meme?).
Was that the case for those pre-war women, or even further back in history, or is it a more modern phenomenon?

Being horribly allergic to makeup, I don't wear it, cause it definitely doesn't make me feel better!

Being horribly allergic to makeup, I don't wear it, cause it definitely doesn't make me feel better!



I love your name.

I wear makeup only when I am going to parties, really. Day to day, I couldn't care less -- it's more time out of my morning that I'd rather spend sleeping.

Wearing makeup makes me feel more like a clown. :)

...and this is unexpected how?

Though I would venture to guess YOUR makeup is rather thicker and more opaque than mine.

Lots of women can afford make-up and don't choose to wear it. Lots of women also don't choose to "glamorize" themselves on a regular basis.

I should know.

I'm currently at about a 7 on my Standard Glamorousness Scale, because this morning I took the trouble of pulling my hair back after I ran a comb through it, my socks match, and I'm wearing pants that aren't jeans.

Ditto. The makeup I have but don't use often is Lancôme. ;)

I don't know, variations of makeup have been around for freakin ages. Women would basically poison themselves by putting on makeup that was made of toxic things just to be able to wear makeup. AND might I add, men wore makeup too. It doesn't happen to be generally fashionable for men to do so right now, but it hasn't always been that way and it will probably change again.

See: Johnny Depp as Jack Sparrow.

The only makeup I wear is for medicinal purposes: antibiotics, those clay things, or whatever else is prescribed by a professional. I rarely wear it to make myself appear more attractive, because it doesn't help. On the other hand, I'm a dude, and society doesn't really expect me to wear makeup anyway.

*shrugs* As for women, if they choose to wear makeup, I'm not stopping 'em.

That didn't stop Flock of Seagulls...

Plat it, thats what I do. Umm that is, thats what I get my wife to do for me.

Was that the case for those pre-war women, or even further back in history, or is it a more modern phenomenon?

Try googling "ancient Egypt" makeup

I read somewhere earlier on in the week(sorry forgot where) a report about how women regard makeup. It tells how for the majority of women, wearing makeup makes them feel better.

Having lived with a real women for the past 20 years, I can readily agree with this, but I wonder on the history of this mindset(meme?).
Was that the case for those pre-war women, or even further back in history, or is it a more modern phenomenon?

Wearing makeup is as old as human history. Women in ancient Egypt used to use khol as mascara.

Try googling "ancient Egypt" makeup

Gaahhh I didn't ask how long we have had makeup, I asked whether or not this 'it makes me feel better' mentality is a resonably modern one.

Still it's sort of a moot point now, as I answered my own question back on page 2 with a post by a friend of mine.

The answer being, no!

Maybe this is the right place to ask two things I've always wondered but never had the guts to ask when standing face to face with a woman wearing these kinds of makeup.

What is the point of eyeshadow, how is a dark miscoloring of the skin around the eyes supposed to look healthy and attractive?

I'm not a woman, and don't wear makeup, but I'll answer anyway. Mascara in addition to drawing attention to the eyes, prompting eye contact, done right it will make the eyes appear bigger. Big eyes draws out the protective/affectionate instinct. It's why japanese animation and hubble figurines have those saucer-plate eyes.

Is lip gloss supposed to make the lips look like they are made of plastic and how is that supposed to be attractive?

Again, done right it's supposed to look like she's constantly licking her lips. This is a cue that she wants to kiss someone with them. Also, it's a fair sight more attractive than withered, dry, cracked lips.

It seems like it's becoming more okay for men to be concerned about their looks and the cosmetics industry are pushing skin care for men now. Give it another decade and they'll start marketing makeup for men.

Not likely. These things go in cycles. In the 80's form fitting clothes and styled hair was in vogue for guys, but it never got as far as makeup (except for pop musicians, but that was basically costumes). Then in the 90's hair was to be so close cropped as to be bald and clothes were so baggy that expectations were all that indicated there was a man in them. Now we're back to long shaggy hair, fashion consciousness, and an obsession with men's fragrances to the point that even Old Spice is trying to brand itself as a fashion fragrance.

Well, it's also a Western-centric sort of thing, too.

Yeah. Make-up was never big in the East. (http://www.christopherholt.com/photos-2002/japan_2002/geisha/geisha-06.jpg)

wearing makeup makes me feel more like a woman.

Me too. Which is useful considering I'm a dude.

Well, there's been a lot of talk about men wearing make up so I might as well ask it: what do the women of NS think about men wearing mascara/eye-shadow? I know a few guys who wear it occasionally, and my female friends seem to be fairly evenly divided on the subject.
I tend to be attracted to people who wear little to no make-up, though sometimes it's fun to get ridiculously dressed up for special events. I used to date a guy who did the Bowie thing when we partied and it was pretty hot.

Yeah. Make-up was never big in the East. (http://www.christopherholt.com/photos-2002/japan_2002/geisha/geisha-06.jpg)
Try reading the actual discussion before you get snarky, and you'll understand why your comment is out of place. :D

Just because I'm a chick doesn't mean I know the first thing about make-up. You probably know more than I do. All I know is it makes you look like a painted whore.

I don't know a lot about make-up either, and I dislike girls with a lot of make-up, luckily this is our of fashion I think. But apparently I was right, seeing how domici had somewhat similar answers.

The only makeup I wear is for medicinal purposes: antibiotics, those clay things, or whatever else is prescribed by a professional.

medicinal make-up? I've never heard of that except maybe for your lips.

Most of the time, when used for sexual attractiveness purposes and not for ritual purposes, (religious and war face painting, for example) it's been feminine. The bible mentions eye shadow, the Q'uran practically drools over women with large, dark eyes.
Yes, books written by homophobic men focus more on drooling over women. Point?


And sometimes it rains in the Sahara, and sometimes the longshot horse wins, but the odd exceptions are not a challenge to the general paradigm. There are even male ducks that pursue other male ducks. The fact that there are always some people who occupy the far sides of a bell curve means very little. As a rule, male ducks are interested in female ducks, especially those portraying various qualities of femaleness and duckness.

Comparing human sexuality to that of ducks is, frankly, laughable. And I mean that from a neurological perspective. Duck genitalia didn't even evolve along the same lines as ours, so why on Earth would you assume that their birdbrains did?

At any rate, it's nice that you concede that what you are talking about is actually NOT inherently part of maleness, but rather is a quality/opinion which some males possess and others do not. Hopefully you also admit that it's a perspective shared by many females, too, which further underscores that one's biological sex doesn't determine any of this.


If you like, you can mentally add "in general, a strong majority, not discounting the fact that there are exceptions to that majority who shall in no way be considered discriminated against even though I am leaving them out of discussion of general proclivities", if it will make you feel better.

That's okay, I'll just be accurate.


The simple fact is, regardless of culture, appearance of youth, health, and fertility in females is sexually attractive, because evolution built us that way.

For one thing, that's quite different from what you were saying. You are using modern, western standards of beauty and claiming that they are purely the result of evolution. As a biologist, I'm used to people making claims of this kind all the time, since lots of people don't understand how evolution does and does not work. It's not a big deal, I just feel the need to correct people's misinterpretations.

For another thing, all those qualities are sexually attractive in males, too, and you're kidding yourself if you actually buy into the whole "women like older guys with money because of evolution" crap. When an artificial system in which women are denied personal independence is created, women make choices accordingly. But that's not "evolution," that's culture. Countless studies have confirmed that women are every bit as sexual as men, and women are every bit as responsive to visual cues as men, so it's pretty lame to try to claim that make-up is uniquely feminine because only males care about the cues it enhances.

Western standards of beauty are kind of like Western gender roles. There are some elements which can be related to evolutionary biology, but the overwhelming majority of it is far more complicated.


Sure, exceptions exist. There have always been exceptions. Exception is one of the necessary conditions for evolution- variability, selection, and a means to pass on selected traits. So, we can assume in any generation there will always be a range of behavior. But, what's the mode? How does the species function in general?
If you'd like to present evidence for your theory that goes beyond statements of opinion, I'd be delighted to read it.