NationStates Jolt Archive


Gates faults NATO force in southern Afghanistan

Velka Morava
17-01-2008, 10:11
The U.S. Defense secretary says he thinks alliance troops do not know how to fight a guerrilla insurgency.
By Peter Spiegel, Los Angeles Times Staff Writer
January 16, 2008
WASHINGTON -- In an unusual public criticism, Defense Secretary Robert M. Gates said he believes NATO forces currently deployed in southern Afghanistan do not know how to combat a guerrilla insurgency, a deficiency that could be contributing to the rising violence in the fight against the Taliban.

"I'm worried we're deploying [military advisors] that are not properly trained and I'm worried we have some military forces that don't know how to do counterinsurgency operations," Gates said in an interview.

Gates' criticism comes as the Bush administration has decided to send 3,200 U.S. Marines to southern Afghanistan on a temporary mission to help quell the rising number of attacks. It also comes amid growing friction among allied commanders over the Afghan security situation.

But coming from an administration castigated for its conduct of wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, such U.S. criticism of the North Atlantic Treaty Organization is controversial. Many NATO officials blame inadequate U.S. troop numbers earlier in the war in part for a Taliban resurgence.

"It's been very, very difficult to apply the classic counterinsurgency doctrine because you've had to stabilize the situation sufficiently to start even applying it," said one European NATO official, who discussed the issue on condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to speak for the alliance. "Even in the classic counterinsurgency doctrine, you've still got to get the fighting down to a level where you can apply the rest of the doctrine."

Gates' views, however, reflect those expressed recently by senior U.S. military officials with responsibility for Afghanistan. Some have said that an overreliance on heavy weaponry, including airstrikes, by NATO forces in the south may unwittingly be contributing to rising violence there.

"Execution of tasks, in my view, has not been appropriate," said one top U.S. officer directly involved in the Afghan campaign who discussed internal assessments on condition of anonymity. "It's not the way to do business, in my opinion. We've got to wean them of this. If they won't change then we're going to have another solution."

Gates has publicly criticized European allies in the past for failing to send adequate numbers of troops and helicopters to the Afghan mission. But concerns about strategy and tactics are usually contained within military and diplomatic channels.

In the interview, Gates compared the troubled experience of the NATO forces in the south -- primarily troops from the closest U.S. allies, Britain and Canada, as well as the Netherlands -- with progress made by American troops in the eastern part of Afghanistan. He traced the failing in part to a Cold War orientation.

"Most of the European forces, NATO forces, are not trained in counterinsurgency; they were trained for the Fulda Gap," Gates said, referring to the German region where a Soviet invasion of Western Europe was deemed most likely.

Gates said he raised his concerns last month in Scotland at a meeting of NATO countries with troops in southern Afghanistan and suggested additional training.

But he added that his concerns did not appear to be shared by the NATO allies. "No one at the table stood up and said: 'I agree with that.' "

The NATO forces are led by a U.S. commander, Army Gen. Dan McNeill, who has called for greater contributions by NATO countries. Some member nations are reluctant to deepen their involvement.

NATO officials bristled at suggestions that non-U.S. forces have been ineffective in implementing a counterinsurgency campaign. They argued that the south, home to Afghanistan's Pashtun tribal heartland that produced the Taliban movement, has long been the most militarily contested region of the country.

The European NATO official, who is directly involved in Afghan planning, angrily denounced the American claims, saying much of the violence is a result of the small number of U.S. troops who had patrolled the region before NATO's takeover in mid-2006, a strategy that allowed the Taliban to reconstitute in the region.

"The reason there is more fighting now is because we've uncovered a very big rock and lots of things are scurrying out," the NATO official said.

Pentagon concerns have risen as violence in the south has steadily increased, even as other parts of Afghanistan have begun to stabilize.

Last year was the deadliest for both U.S. and allied forces in Afghanistan since the 2001 invasion, according to the website icasualties.org.

But both U.S. and NATO officials have expressed optimism that eastern Afghanistan, which is under the control of U.S. forces led by Army Maj. Gen. David Rodriguez, has substantially improved in recent months.

Rodriguez implemented a campaign that incorporated many of the same tactics being used in Iraq by Army Gen. David H. Petraeus, the U.S. commander in Baghdad who co-wrote the military's new counterinsurgency field manual.

"If you believe all the things you hear about Afghanistan, this ought to be real hot," Navy Adm. William J. Fallon, commander of U.S. troops in the Middle East and Central Asia, said of eastern Afghanistan. "More than half the border is Pakistan, it's a rough area, historically it's been a hotbed of insurgent activity. It's remarkable in its improvement."

At the same time, violence has continued to rise in the south, which is controlled by a 11,700-soldier NATO force largely made up of the British, Canadian and Dutch forces. Britain saw 42 soldiers killed last year, almost all in southern Afghanistan, its highest annual fatality count of the war; Canada lost 31, close to the 36 from that country killed in 2006. American forces lost 117 troops in 2007, up from 98 in 2006, but U.S. forces are spread more widely across Afghanistan.

"Our guys in the east, under Gen. Rodriguez, are doing a terrific job. They've got the [counterinsurgency] thing down pat," Gates said. "But I think our allies over there, this is not something they have any experience with."

Some U.S. counterinsurgency experts have argued that the backsliding is not the fault of NATO forces alone.

Some have argued that an effective counterinsurgency campaign implemented by Army Lt. Gen. David W. Barno and Zalmay Khalilzad, who were the U.S. commander in and ambassador to Afghanistan from 2003 to 2005, was largely abandoned by officials who came later.

Barno retired from the military and heads the Near East South Asia Center at the National Defense University. In an article in the influential Army journal Military Review last fall, he blamed both NATO and U.S. commanders for moving away from the counterinsurgency plan since 2006.

Barno accused NATO and U.S. forces of ignoring the cornerstone of a counterinsurgency campaign -- protecting the local population -- and said they instead focused on killing enemy forces.

"We had a fundamentally well-structured, integrated U.S. Embassy and U.S. military unified counterinsurgency campaign plan which we put in place in late '03 that took us all the way through about the middle of 2005," Barno said in an interview. "And then it was really, in many ways, changed very dramatically."

Currently serving American officers, however, have singled out non-U.S. NATO forces for the bulk of their criticism. Among the concerns is that NATO forces do not actively include Afghan troops in military operations.

As a result, local forces in the south are now less capable than those in the east, which operate very closely with their American counterparts.

"Every time you see our guys in the field, you don't have to look very far and you'll see them," said the senior U.S. officer involved in the Afghan campaign. "Getting the Brits to do this and the others is a little more of a problem."

In addition, U.S. military officials said NATO forces in the south are too quick to rely on high-caliber firepower, such as airstrikes, a practice which alienates the local population.

"The wide view there, which I hear from Americans, is that the NATO military forces are taking on a Soviet mentality," said one senior U.S. military veteran of Afghanistan. "They're staying in their bases in the south, they're doing very little patrolling, they're trying to avoid casualties, and they're using air power as a substitute for ground infantry operations, because they have so little ground infantry."

The European NATO official said, however, that alliance data show that all countries, including the U.S., use air power in similar amounts when their troops come in contact with enemy forces.

"Everyone is grateful for the Americans . . . but this kind of constant denigration of what other people are doing isn't helpful," the official said. "It also makes the situation look worse than it is."

peter.spiegel@latimes.com

Source (http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-usafghan16jan16,0,5964173,full.story?coll=la-home-center)

Are US officials trying to piss off their european counterparts?
Why? Want to remain in Iraq and Afghanistan alone?
Neu Leonstein
17-01-2008, 10:51
He may well have a point. European allies just haven't spent as much money and effort to keep up with the times, I know Germany certainly hasn't. But then, the US is really only acquiring real expertise in modern counter-insurgency operations right now in Iraq.

Really it was really only a matter of time until the vast difference in military spending would show up in the real world and cause trouble within NATO though.
Velka Morava
17-01-2008, 11:05
It's not the US that did wrong. It's the Evil communist europeans!

My point here is that Gates seems to underestimate the strain US foreign polithics has put on its allies in the last years. I wonder what's after apart Republican campaigning.
Laerod
17-01-2008, 11:24
He may well have a point. European allies just haven't spent as much money and effort to keep up with the times, I know Germany certainly hasn't. But then, the US is really only acquiring real expertise in modern counter-insurgency operations right now in Iraq.

Really it was really only a matter of time until the vast difference in military spending would show up in the real world and cause trouble within NATO though.There's a lot of complaints that the US is taking civilian casualties into account far too freely and that this is causing the indigenous population to turn against NATO as a whole.

Also, article appeareth not.
Hobabwe
17-01-2008, 11:36
I'm starting to wonder if the Bush administration is intentionally trying to piss off the world just to make the job of his successor that much harder.
The US should be glad some countries are still willing to work along side them, the demands made by the US are extremely annoying and all up-on-a-high-horsey.

Here in the Netherlands we are starting to see a discusion on whether we should work alongside the US at all. After all, if we dont support them we catch flak, and if we do support them, we catch flak aswell. Might aswell let them hang out to dry then, at least it won't be our soldiers dying.
Velka Morava
17-01-2008, 11:38
Also, article appeareth not.

I just used the link and it works for me
Laerod
17-01-2008, 11:40
I just used the link and it works for meI get a blank page. Perhaps you're using a subscription?
Laerod
17-01-2008, 11:45
No subsciption.

I'm posting the full path thoug, su you can copy and paste:

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-usafghan16jan16,0,5964173,full.story?coll=la-home-centerYou have the full thing in the earlier post as well. I simply can't access the site. Could you paste the article in the OP?
Velka Morava
17-01-2008, 11:53
Here in the Netherlands we are starting to see a discusion on whether we should work alongside the US at all. After all, if we dont support them we catch flak, and if we do support them, we catch flak aswell. Might aswell let them hang out to dry then, at least it won't be our soldiers dying.

Much the same here in Czech Republic, expecially since the beginning of the Missile defence radar issue.
Call to power
17-01-2008, 12:13
weird how Britain has just spent 38 years doing counter-insurgency in Ireland then and also seems to be the only force applying any sort of strategy against the taliban
Aryavartha
17-01-2008, 16:07
weird how Britain has just spent 38 years doing counter-insurgency in Ireland then and also seems to be the only force applying any sort of strategy against the taliban

Like this?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/12/26/wafg126.xml
Britain in secret talks with the Taliban
By Thomas Harding and Tom Coghlan

The NATO is hardly blameless in Afghanistan, but the US making the accusation is like the pot kettle thing.


In other news

http://www.guardian.co.uk/afghanistan/story/0,,2214994,00.html
The Taliban has a permanent presence in 54% of Afghanistan and the country is in serious danger of falling into Taliban hands, according to a report by an independent thinktank with long experience in the area.


and

http://www.guardian.co.uk/japan/story/0,,2203098,00.html
Japan pulls out of Afghanistan coalition

Seems, Pakistan did have it right by betting on taliban.
Call to power
17-01-2008, 16:24
Like this?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/12/26/wafg126.xml
Britain in secret talks with the Taliban
By Thomas Harding and Tom Coghlan

hardly news, divide and conquer turning the Taliban into our own little militia is British style after all

the British role is currently to secure the country from warlords and pull out in a way that allows for a mission accomplished to be declared, human rights and Afghanistan's future be dammed
Risottia
17-01-2008, 16:47
The European NATO official, who is directly involved in Afghan planning, angrily denounced the American claims, saying much of the violence is a result of the small number of U.S. troops who had patrolled the region before NATO's takeover in mid-2006, a strategy that allowed the Taliban to reconstitute in the region.

There you are, typical "we-US-rule" attitude. They fuck up their own job, then blame it on someone else. Too bad for the yanks there are no french troops there, or they'd be screaming "suwwendews! suwwendews!" at the top of their lungs. :(
This reminds me of that thing with NATO, Russians and brit general Michael Jackson at the airport of Pristina back in '99...


Are US officials trying to piss off their european counterparts?


They aren't just trying, they're succeeding!
Yootopia
17-01-2008, 18:58
hardly news, divide and conquer turning the Taliban into our own little militia is British style after all

the British role is currently to secure the country from warlords and pull out in a way that allows for a mission accomplished to be declared, human rights and Afghanistan's future be dammed
Quite.

I don't see why NATO doesn't just give us a whole load of money so that we can properly pay our troops, build up the infrastructure of Afghanistan, buy double rations of Monster Munch crisps for our soldiers to keep up morale etc., instead of sending in everyone elses' soldiers who aren't actually very experienced in this stuff.

Ah well.
Farnhamia
17-01-2008, 18:59
Source (http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-usafghan16jan16,0,5964173,full.story?coll=la-home-center)

Are US officials trying to piss off their european counterparts?
Why? Want to remain in Iraq and Afghanistan alone?

What, you expected him to say the US should do more? Haven't you been paying attention to the way the Bush Administration works? Been living in a cave in Tora Bora, have you? :p

Anyway, Afghanistan's a sideshow, the real Battle For The Hearts And Minds of People of Arabic Descent is in Iraq. Every schoolchild knows that. And maybe in Iran, too, we'll have to see.

You obviously need re-education. Our black helicopters will be landing on your lawn soon. Please be ready to leave.
Kryozerkia
17-01-2008, 19:03
Instead of complaining, the US shouldn't have bailed on its NATO allies.
Call to power
17-01-2008, 19:09
Instead of complaining, the US shouldn't have bailed on its NATO allies.

nah swapping sides would be way more fun :)
Kryozerkia
17-01-2008, 19:13
nah swapping sides would be way more fun :)

Why'd we want that filthy mess the US has made of Iraq when we're still fixing another mess?
Aryavartha
17-01-2008, 19:16
hardly news, divide and conquer turning the Taliban into our own little militia is British style after all

The only people divided here are the NATO.

Engaging in secret talks with taliban will be a great encouragement for the Afghan allies. Karzai must have been thrilled.;)

the British role is currently to secure the country from warlords and pull out in a way that allows for a mission accomplished to be declared, human rights and Afghanistan's future be dammed

Western forces withdraw leaving a power vacuum. Pakistan pushes in taliban to take over. Taliban hosts salafis. Salafis blow up stuff. I am sure that will also be hardly news....in fact I think it has happened sometime before..:p
Pelagoria
17-01-2008, 19:16
I just think it time for the US to recognize the effort that their allies have done instead of complaining. If the US wants to handle it alone by my guest :) but then don't complain if you end up getting another Vietnam, which I don't hope :)
Fearsome attack
17-01-2008, 19:38
The USA can hardly talk about not doing a job right. Its us Brits and the Canuks that are taking most of the flak in Helmand. The yanks are avoiding it like the plague
Yootopia
17-01-2008, 19:49
The only people divided here are the NATO.

Engaging in secret talks with taliban will be a great encouragement for the Afghan allies. Karzai must have been thrilled.;)
Might as well set the Taliban on each other. No point in letting them stay united and strong, after all.
Western forces withdraw leaving a power vacuum. Pakistan pushes in taliban to take over. Taliban hosts salafis. Salafis blow up stuff. I am sure that will also be hardly news....in fact I think it has happened sometime before..:p
Nah, we'll stay there for 40-odd years, as with Northern Ireland, and try and get some Afghan unity together, along with a decent government (as in 'not Karzai').
Neu Leonstein
17-01-2008, 23:43
Might as well set the Taliban on each other. No point in letting them stay united and strong, after all.
And you reckon they're stupid enough to do that? No, they'll stick together until NATO is gone, only then might they start killing each other.

Anyways, I think Gates makes a good point, namely that getting heavy artillery barrages or air strikes ordered in every time someone fires a gun is likely to antagonise people, which doesn't help with the counter-insurgency operation. As far as I can tell, every NATO force there has been guilty of it...and the Americans provide pretty much all the airpower.

I don't know what's been going on behind closed doors, and whether he already tried (and failed, prompting him to make this statement), but it might be a good idea for him to meet with counterparts and change the rules of engagement for NATO forces in Afghanistan to take in some of the lessons learned in recent years on fighting insurgencies.

Of course, that will come back to sending more troops, which everyone will find an excuse not to do again.
Yootopia
18-01-2008, 00:07
And you reckon they're stupid enough to do that? No, they'll stick together until NATO is gone, only then might they start killing each other.
Oh how I beg to differ. The fact that some of them are perfectly happy to appear on the BBC in interviews, which is majorly against the original ideals of the Taleban suggests that there are seemingly divisions in terms of the ideology of the movement.

Stir that up a bit, pay some of them to calm down a bit, wait 40 years, hurrah, peace won.
Neu Leonstein
18-01-2008, 01:41
Oh how I beg to differ. The fact that some of them are perfectly happy to appear on the BBC in interviews, which is majorly against the original ideals of the Taleban suggests that there are seemingly divisions in terms of the ideology of the movement.
Why is appearing on TV against their ideology? I think it was public knowledge by now that these groups have realised just how useful mass media is as a weapon.
Jagaro
18-01-2008, 02:29
Why is appearing on TV against their ideology? I think it was public knowledge by now that these groups have realised just how useful mass media is as a weapon.

Because other Taliban will see it as them 'working with the western devil' causing splintering and in-fighting.
The Black Forrest
18-01-2008, 02:47
.... along with a decent government (as in 'not Karzai').

HEY! Do you know how hard it is to find a good working puppet!!!!!!!!
Neu Leonstein
18-01-2008, 03:45
Because other Taliban will see it as them 'working with the western devil' causing splintering and in-fighting.
But they don't. That's the point - they just want to make sure that their message gets out to the West, hopefully recruiting people there.
Jeruselem
18-01-2008, 05:10
Like USA is any good at doing the same in Iraq ... :p
Non Aligned States
18-01-2008, 05:25
Ahh.. the typical American political approach to that broken pottery. "It's not our fault! It's Timmy's fault from across the ocean! Blame him! Then look the other way while I go smash some more pottery."

Of course this will filter down to the masses, who in 10 or 20 years time will view themselves as the saviors, come to protect the Afghans from the evil terrorist while sowing the seeds of democracy, and they would have succeeded, if it wasn't for those meddling European kids.

Oh who am I kidding. I bet there are enough Americans who already believe that.
Capitaliya
18-01-2008, 23:35
Afghans and Persians are not peoples of Arabic descent...;)
Yootopia
19-01-2008, 00:13
Why is appearing on TV against their ideology? I think it was public knowledge by now that these groups have realised just how useful mass media is as a weapon.
Because they actively banned TV when they were in power?
Soviestan
19-01-2008, 00:18
What rubbish. The Europeans are fighting just as bravely and sustaining causalities as the Americans are. And for what, to be told they don't know what they are doing? Maybe they should just leave and let the US do it by themselves if they are so much better.
Neu Leonstein
19-01-2008, 00:27
Because they actively banned TV when they were in power?
Yeah, but that doesn't mean that they'd have a problem with using it to get their message to the west. It wouldn't be the first time that combat forces have been allowed to do stuff in battle that civilians wouldn't be allowed to do.
Yootopia
19-01-2008, 00:29
Yeah, but that doesn't mean that they'd have a problem with using it to get their message to the west. It wouldn't be the first time that combat forces have been allowed to do stuff in battle that civilians wouldn't be allowed to do.
Aye, but this isn't "to get their message to the west", this is more "they were being interviewed by a woman on the BBC about how they were coping after the invasion, and they were saying that they were totally fucked".
Neu Leonstein
19-01-2008, 00:44
Aye, but this isn't "to get their message to the west", this is more "they were being interviewed by a woman on the BBC about how they were coping after the invasion, and they were saying that they were totally fucked".
If that is what they were saying it's a different matter because we're not talking about going on TV, but rather on precisely what is being said there.