NationStates Jolt Archive

Here are the solutions i have seen fit to post:
The eleven basic options are

An Israel-Palestine federation.

An Israel-Palestine confederation.

A federation of multiple Jewish and Arab cantons.

A Palestinian Arab state (or entity) associated with Israel as a federacy (on the model of Puerto Rico and the United States or the Aaland Islands and Finland).

An Israel-Jordan confederation with the Palestinian Arabs fully incorporated into the Jordanian polity.

An Israel-Jordan confederation with a Palestinian Arab partner federated with one or the other.

Israeli incorporation of the territories with an internal consociational arrangement put on a constitutional basis.

A totally non-territorial consociational federation within the entire area.

Condominium: joint Israeli-Jordanian rule over the territories with the local authorities attached to one or the other for civil purposes.

Various partial or sectoral federal arrangements such as a customs union, common market, joint special-purpose authorities, serving two or three states with the capability of being further expanded (e.g., to include Lebanon).

Bifederate arrangements with different kinds of links between Israel, Judea, Samaria and Gaza or Israel and the territories with or without Jordan.

http://www.jcpa.org/dje/articles3/fs5.htm
here is the rest,

You forgot genocide.

Here are the solutions i have seen fit to post:
The eleven basic options are

An Israel-Palestine federation.

An Israel-Palestine confederation.

A federation of multiple Jewish and Arab cantons.

A Palestinian Arab state (or entity) associated with Israel as a federacy (on the model of Puerto Rico and the United States or the Aaland Islands and Finland).

An Israel-Jordan confederation with the Palestinian Arabs fully incorporated into the Jordanian polity.

An Israel-Jordan confederation with a Palestinian Arab partner federated with one or the other.

Israeli incorporation of the territories with an internal consociational arrangement put on a constitutional basis.

A totally non-territorial consociational federation within the entire area.

Condominium: joint Israeli-Jordanian rule over the territories with the local authorities attached to one or the other for civil purposes.

Various partial or sectoral federal arrangements such as a customs union, common market, joint special-purpose authorities, serving two or three states with the capability of being further expanded (e.g., to include Lebanon).

Bifederate arrangements with different kinds of links between Israel, Judea, Samaria and Gaza or Israel and the territories with or without Jordan.

http://www.jcpa.org/dje/articles3/fs5.htm
here is the rest,

Israel will agree to nothing that would stop it from being the Jewish state or that would require it to share resources with Palestinians (such as infrastructure and water supply).

Here is the solution I have seen fit to post:
The one basic option is:
http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:XZG30wkv4ZQD-M:http://www.strategic-air-command.com/missiles/Aircraft-Launched_Missiles/images/agm-129-b52.jpg
One each B-52G and a few well-targeted nuclear cruse missiles. :eek:

genocide doesnt work, israel is the one who gets fucked, from it, unless you meant the palestinans preforming the genocide

Done thoroughly, yes it does; if there were no more arabs and/or Israelis they would no longer be fighting over that territory.

Click Stand;13367812']You forgot genocide.

genocide doesnt work, israel is the one who gets fucked, from it, unless you meant the palestinans preforming the genocide

Done thoroughly, yes it does; if there were no more arabs and/or Israelis they would no longer be fighting over that territory.removing the israelis would do. the fight over that territory started with their advent, and with their disappearance it would end. the arabs there were/are not the cause of the problem.

removing the israelis would do. the fight over that territory started with their advent, and with their disappearance it would end. the arabs there were/are not the cause of the problem.

Fail Crusades anyone?

Fail Crusades anyone?oh, there have been clashes between jews and arabs before the british let the jews into palestine, or what?
if the jews hadn't immigrated en masse and started slaughtering the inhabitants the UN would have never come up with a division plan. if the colonial powers had just let the arabs be after the downfall of the ottoman empire, there would be no problem today.

The two-state solution, based on the 1967 borders, is the only one reasonably within reach.

The two-state solution, based on the 1967 borders, is the only one reasonably within reach.and you really believe that isreal will ever pull out its settlers from the West Bank, dismantle the fence/wall, and restore full water supply?

The two-state solution, based on the 1967 borders, is the only one reasonably within reach.
Except it isn't really a solution, as it will be only a matter of time before Israel and the new Palestinian state go to war again. If the Palestinian state can even survive economically, that is.

The palestinians had their chance at a state and blew it in 1948.because they didn't want to give half of their homeland to foreigners?

Except it isn't really a solution, as it will be only a matter of time before Israel and the new Palestinian state go to war again.

Nonsense. It would be in the interests of neither power.

If the Palestinian state can even survive economically, that is.

It would end up being heavily economically dependent on Israel. But we've always known that.

oh, there have been clashes between jews and arabs before the british let the jews into palestine, or what?
if the jews hadn't immigrated en masse and started slaughtering the inhabitants the UN would have never come up with a division plan. if the colonial powers had just let the arabs be after the downfall of the ottoman empire, there would be no problem today.

The Arabs will just fight with each other. Remember that Saudi Arabia was meant to be the "homeland for all Arabs" (Arabia) until one tribe slaughtered the leaders of the rest.

The palestinians had their chance at a state and blew it in 1948. But I say that they should be given Gaza and the West Bank. They can have their state.

and you really believe that isreal will ever pull out its settlers from the West Bank, dismantle the fence/wall, and restore full water supply?

Quite possibly; the demographic problem has had rather profound effects on the Israeli attitude towards a Palestinian state. In any case, if they aren't willing to do that, they're not going to be willing to do anything more extreme... like live in one state with the Palestinians.

So unless you're a particular fan of the status quo....

Israel will agree to nothing that would stop it from being the Jewish state or that would require it to share resources with Palestinians (such as infrastructure and water supply).
Actually, it already shares resources with the Palestinians.
The two-state solution, based on the 1967 borders, is the only one reasonably within reach.
I think so too.
and you really believe that isreal will ever pull out its settlers from the West Bank, dismantle the fence/wall, and restore full water supply?
Yes, when terrorism stops (except the settlements part, which should be done regardless)
Except it isn't really a solution, as it will be only a matter of time before Israel and the new Palestinian state go to war again. If the Palestinian state can even survive economically, that is.

True, but the Palestinian will survive economically if there is peace. As was started before the 2nd intifada began.

Yes, when terrorism stopsyou mean the occupation of the West Bank?

True, but the Palestinian will survive economically if there is peace. As was started before the 2nd intifada began.what?

No matter what Israel gives the palestinians, they will not rest until every jew is dead and Israel is wiped off the map. So long as there are both jews and muslims, this war will not end

You forgot "hit them up with some nukes". Which is about as plausible a road to success as any others.

Click Stand;13367812']You forgot genocide.

Sounds like a plan...

Based on the past 60 years, you probably have to treat them like children -- they're certainly acting like 'em!

Done thoroughly, yes it does; if there were no more arabs and/or Israelis they would no longer be fighting over that territory.

there will always be conflict in the holy land:
but i think this is true
"Who has claim, is it the jews, the moslems or the christains?, All have Claim!"
Kingdom of Heaven

The two-state solution, based on the 1967 borders, is the only one reasonably within reach.

lol, Israelis arent giving up that land

Popcorn, anyone?

*munches*

you mean the occupation of the West Bank?

what?

somehow, very bizzarely, I don't know how this happened but in your quote of my post, you forgot to include it in its entirety: "Yes, when terrorism stops (except the settlements part, which should be done regardless)" Funny how these things happen.

Before the second intifada began, Palestine's economy was improving significantly. A large portion of its population was employed within Israel and internal matters were improving. But then, for some reason, the extremists decided that the economy wasn't improving fast enough for them, so they resorted back to their calls for 'kill the infidels' and so on. We know the rest. Or hopefully you do.

Popcorn, anyone?

*munches*

sure, i'll have a little, i got some crisps somewhere.
*joins in munching*

But then, for some reason, the extremists decided that the economy wasn't improving fast enough for them
Or that it was improving too fast. Where would the extremists be if the Palestinians started getting on with their lives?

Or that it was improving too fast. Where would the extremists be if the Palestinians started getting on with their lives?
The second Intifada started because the negotiations with Israel were going nowhere, as usual.

Based on the past 60 years, you probably have to treat them like children -- they're certainly acting like 'em!

QFT its just 2 gangs of kids squabbling over a sand pit when it gets down to it

maybe if Israel could stop pulling horrific ideas like collective punishment, building walls and denying Palestinians the chance to have a education things could improve

You forgot "hit them up with some nukes". Which is about as plausible a road to success as any others.

But add 'Palestinians' just after 'them' and before 'up' and suddenly the option becomes appealing to quite a few NSG posters.

QFT its just 2 gangs of kids squabbling over a sand pit when it gets down to it

Except Israel is the Spoiled Rich Kid who gets all sorts of neat presents and a knowing wink from a big powerful uncle that everyone else hates (The U.S.) while the Palestinians are the relatively Dirt Poor Kids who only have a bunch of distant relatives who don't think much of them beyond lip service (most of the Arab states) and some psychotic fruitcakes who keep encouraging them to blow the shit out of the Spoiled Rich Kids every chance they get (Hamas, Al'Aqsa, etc. etc.)

maybe if Israel could stop pulling horrific ideas like collective punishment, building walls and denying Palestinians the chance to have a education things could improve

Except that the Israeli population as a whole can never stomach the idea of turning the other cheek long enough to let the Palestinians grow self-sufficient to the point where fanatical jihadis lose their appeal. The populace made it official with a bullet in Rabin's head.

Except that the Israeli population as a whole can never stomach the idea of turning the other cheek long enough to let the Palestinians grow self-sufficient to the point where fanatical jihadis lose their appeal. The populace made it official with a bullet in Rabin's head.

Right, you're so right. Cuz the Israeli population doesn't have a day of remembrance to Rabin's assassination every year, and the assassin is not serving a life-term in jail, and the Palestinian's economy did not improve at all before the second intifada was started by them, and Israelis like suffering from terrorism. You make a whole lot of sense considering all of those things.

Or that it was improving too fast. Where would the extremists be if the Palestinians started getting on with their lives?

Good point.

The second Intifada started because the negotiations with Israel were going nowhere, as usual.

haha right. Words from the expert.

Except that the Israeli population as a whole can never stomach the idea of turning the other cheek long enough to let the Palestinians grow self-sufficient to the point where fanatical jihadis lose their appeal. The populace made it official with a bullet in Rabin's head.

vicious cycle sadly, Palestinian terrorists feel that blowing themselves up will actually be able solve something (or at least provide some vengeance) and the Israeli population having suffered this go on supporting hard line measures out of fear (causing more terrorism)

the balls is in Israels court though by all means just pounding the Palestinians hasn't worked and such strategies never have achieved anything other than increasing attacks

Right, you're so right. Cuz the Israeli population doesn't have a day of remembrance to Rabin's assassination every year, and the assassin is not serving a life-term in jail, and the Palestinian's economy did not improve at all before the second intifada was started by them, and Israelis like suffering from terrorism. You make a whole lot of sense considering all of those things.

Israelis have consistently voted for policy's that are harsh on the Palestinians mostly out of fear

what part of Gauthier's statement was wrong in this?

Click Stand;13367812']You forgot genocide.

I was going to say "The Final Solution" but you frigging beat me to it...

The two-state solution, based on the 1967 borders, is the only one reasonably within reach.

Quite true, but also with the addition of increased western development and military aid to a Palestinian government that can actually, you know, govern, we could see the sorts of improvement that are needed.

The second Intifada started because the negotiations with Israel were going nowhere, as usual.

*raises eyebrow*

But then, for some reason, the extremists decided that the economy wasn't improving fast enough for them, so they resorted back to their calls for 'kill the infidels' and so on.

Okay, I understand that you don't want to speak seriously about the causes of the Second Intifada, but at least don't have such contempt for humanity as to assert that the only thing we care about is how well the economy is doing.

I'm surprised no one has suggested taking around 20 of the largest aircraft capable of dumping water over the two countries, dumping said water to create quite possibly the largest amount of mud ever, and letting LG have a field day. Whoever survives the insanity wins the land. (Or what's left of it, anyway.)

But add 'Palestinians' just after 'them' and before 'up' and suddenly the option becomes appealing to quite a few NSG posters.

YOU ANTI-SEMITE!!

No, wait... It's about Palestinians. Nevermind, carry on...

Right, you're so right. Cuz the Israeli population doesn't have a day of remembrance to Rabin's assassination every year, and the assassin is not serving a life-term in jail, and the Palestinian's economy did not improve at all before the second intifada was started by them, and Israelis like suffering from terrorism. You make a whole lot of sense considering all of those things.

I don't think one can possibly equate the level of disruption of Israeli life to the daily conditions the Palestinians live under. Otherwise it would be a war, as oppossed to a one sided occupation. Neither causualties or damage are remotely equal, nor could they be, given the vast forces available to one side.

A federation/confederation will never work as you need a common set of laws to establish that. Palestinians are not liberal as Israelis, they are a semi-dictatorship people ruled by military who allows children to be recruited to an arming force. They execute political rivals, force their religion on others, censor the media, etc.. Israelis allow strip joints, dressing provokingly, there is no religious rule, religion isnt forced, children are not recruited to the army, censorship is limited only to extreme military issues which can hurt the state and nearly everything is democratic.
You can see how well similiar integration is working in France with its small muslim population for example.
The buttom line is Western and muslim sociaties and cultures dont mix.

the only solution i see is detemination of a border in any way and then a complete seperation
N.Korea, S. Korea style

The buttom line is Western and muslim sociaties and cultures dont mix.

so your a puppet of DMV arent you

Convert both sides to (the same sect of) Christianity, to reduce their differences... ;)

Dmv?

Convert both sides to (the same sect of) Christianity, to reduce their differences... ;)

Yes, that would totally work! We would, like, airdrop thousands of bibles over the region - then after a couple of days they would ALL be god-fearing, white, Christian Americans! :D

and you really believe that isreal will ever pull out its settlers from the West Bank, dismantle the fence/wall, and restore full water supply?

If they ever start having long term election terms, with politicians who have long term foresight rather than the current crop of corrupt 2 year term politicos who pander to the biggest support base.

Right, you're so right. Cuz the Israeli population doesn't have a day of remembrance to Rabin's assassination every year, and the assassin is not serving a life-term in jail, and the Palestinian's economy did not improve at all before the second intifada was started by them, and Israelis like suffering from terrorism. You make a whole lot of sense considering all of those things.

Rabins assassination was not the only act of bloodshed by radical Israeli Jews who to this day, still wield a not insignificant amount of political and economic clout.

If this particular demographic of Israel were to vanish or marginalized to the point of isolation, you might see a different take in current behavior.

Pretty much the same if we apply the same conditions to the radicals in Palestine.

Both sides have a bunch of troublemakers with power who have this idea in their heads that the only way to have peace is to completely exterminate the other side.

Rabins assassination was not the only act of bloodshed by radical Israeli Jews who to this day, still wield a not insignificant amount of political and economic clout.

If this particular demographic of Israel were to vanish or marginalized to the point of isolation, you might see a different take in current behavior.

Pretty much the same if we apply the same conditions to the radicals in Palestine.

Both sides have a bunch of troublemakers with power who have this idea in their heads that the only way to have peace is to completely exterminate the other side.

No buddy, there's quite a difference. In Israel the right-wing Licud party is nothing like Hamas in level of radicalism. Hamas is in power. Israeli radicals are a tiny minority.

Yes, that would totally work! We would, like, airdrop thousands of bibles over the region - then after a couple of days they would ALL be god-fearing, white, Christian Americans! :D

Unite Palestinians and Israelis in shared hatred of Christianity?

*rubs chin*

That could work...

I've always been a fan of "If you can't share the land, neither of you get it". 'Course, the US doesn't need that kind of hatred at the moment, so it would be up to a coalition formed by the countries in the UN.

Does anyone but me get really nervous when anyone refers to a nation or an ethnicity as a 'question'?

Does anyone but me get really nervous when anyone refers to a nation or an ethnicity as a 'question'?

Like someone needs a shower ?

Like someone needs a shower ?

Exactamente.

vicious cycle sadly, Palestinian terrorists feel that blowing themselves up will actually be able solve something (or at least provide some vengeance) and the Israeli population having suffered this go on supporting hard line measures out of fear (causing more terrorism)

the balls is in Israels court though by all means just pounding the Palestinians hasn't worked and such strategies never have achieved anything other than increasing attacks



Israelis have consistently voted for policy's that are harsh on the Palestinians mostly out of fear

what part of Gauthier's statement was wrong in this?
I don't believe the Palestinians are stupid enough to believe that blowing themselves up will actually be able to solve something: I think they WANT things to stay bad.
On the other hand, the way that the Israelis have pounded the Palestinians HAS worked (I am not talking about whether you consider the collective-punishment mentality morally justified, just about its effectiveness), since their casualties have been way down. Very few Palestinian bombings or rockets have actually managed to kill Israelis since Israel started the thorough fencing-off.

Protoss: what do you mean by "DMV"? Where I live, that stands for Department of Motor Vehicles, the place where you take a number and wait for seemingly forever to get your driver's license or car registration renewed.

Are Jews a minority in Israel?

Are there Arabs on the Supreme Court? Are there Arabs in the Israeli Cabinet? Are there Arabs in the Knesset?

Israeli radicals are a tiny minority.Are Jews a minority in Israel?

Are Jews a minority in Israel?

Are all Jews radical?

Are there Arabs on the Supreme Court? Are there Arabs in the Israeli Cabinet? Are there Arabs in the Knesset?

Fudging the issue by bringing up the treatment of Arabs within Israel? A number of people have itemised in great depth the institutional discrimination against Arabs there, which certain parties conveniently forget each and every time a discussion comes up...By the way, just as a matter of curiosity...

Lets just say - to clear the matter out of the way - that every time an Arab within Israel goes to sit down, a member of the Shin Bet clears anything that might poke their posterior, while a member of the Likud party flumps a pillow so that their bottoms might be cushioned and comfy.....

...what the fuck would that have to do with the harsh, brutal semi-apartheid regime arabs have to cope with in the OT, which is where the main trouble lies? Answers please.