NationStates Jolt Archive

WWII veteran Mikhail Minin, a Hero of the Soviet Union, the man, who raised the USSR flag, the banner of Victory, over Germany’s Reichstag in May of 1945, died.
Minin will be buried on January 12 in his native city of Pskov where he resided until then, Interfax report.
Mikhail Minin was born in the village of Vanino in 1922. In June of 1941 he volunteered to join the army to fight against Nazi Germany. He took part in battles to liberate Leningrad from blockade and made his way across the fronts from Leningrad to Berlin.
When the Soviet army was storming Reichstag in Berlin on April 30, 1945 Minin broke into the building and became the first man to raise the Red Banner on its tower. In May of 1945 Minin was awarded the title of the Soviet Union Hero for his deed and other services in battle. The famous photo does not show Minin but a Georgian soldier. It was not taken at the actual event.
Josef Stalin had urged his troops to mount the flag on the Reichstag building no later than May 1, 1945. Minin's superiors had told the soldiers that any piece of red cloth fixed to the building would symbolize that the battle was won.
Minin was part of a team of five soldiers who brought a red flag and tried to enter the building. They found most doors to be replaced by concrete and one door that was locked. The members of the group recalled seeing a tree limb nearby. Using the limb they managed to break the locked door by force. As they entered there was sporadic fire from German soldiers. They responded with their machine guns and managed to go up the stairs and reach the roof. Once there they decided to attach the flag to the large statue Germania over the entrance. At first they did not manage to fix the flag at a good place. Someone noticed that the person sitting on the statue was wearing a crown. They climbed the statue and managed to insert a metal pole with the flag inside the crown. They then used belts from their trousers to fix the flag at its location.
Minin was recognized for his feat, but was not really rewarded. As there were no photos taken when the flag was put on the roof on 10 p.m., other photos were taken on other occasions of which the one above has become most famous.
When the Great Patriotic War ended, Minin continued his army service. In 1959 he graduated from the Military Academy and joined special strategic purpose troops. Minin moved to Pskov in 1977 and decided to stay in the city afterwards.
Source: http://english.pravda.ru/russia/history/11-01-2008/103368-soviet_union-0
Translated by Dmitry Sudakov
Pravda.ru
I am sure most people recognize that famous image.

I am sure most people recognize that famous image.

I don't think any one remembers the picture of that event because there was none taken. :p

The famous photo does not show Minin but a Georgian soldier. It was not taken at the actual event.

Minin was recognized for his feat, but was not really rewarded. As there were no photos taken when the flag was put on the roof on 10 p.m., other photos were taken on other occasions of which the one above has become most famous.

and on a serious note... another piece of History is lost. May he Rest in Peace.

My condolences to his family.

As an amusing sidenote, I didn't realize that Pravda online and the Pravda newspaper are two totally different news sources, owned by different people, and approaching the news with two totally different points of view. Amusing, don't you think?

Whooooo...for the German people. The swapping of envslavement by the totalitarian authoritarian Nazi dictatorship for the totalitarian authoritarian Soviet dictatorship is SUCH A GOOD THING!

Coming from a racist self-proclaimed supporter of Apartheid.

Whooooo...for the German people. The swapping of envslavement by the totalitarian authoritarian Nazi dictatorship for the totalitarian authoritarian Soviet dictatorship is SUCH A GOOD THING!

Whooooo...for the German people. The swapping of envslavement by the totalitarian authoritarian Nazi dictatorship for the totalitarian authoritarian Soviet dictatorship is SUCH A GOOD THING!
By '45 it was. Say what you will about the GDR, but it was better than randoms walking through the street hanging and shooting people for being cowards. Regardless of what came after, at least it ended the war.

As for the dude: I don't think this is any more news than the death of Edmund Hillary was. Old people eventually die, it shouldn't come as a surprise.

Good for him. I wonder if he liked that he became a symbol of Soviet Oppression? If only Ike hadn't give Berlin to Russia, there woulnd't have been a berlin wall, and maybe, no east Germany...

Oppression!?! Dr. Goebbels is laughing from the grave I bet, seeing as such naive foolish individuals such as yourself still believe his anti-communist propaganda.

Good for him. I wonder if he liked that he became a symbol of Soviet Oppression? If only Ike hadn't give Berlin to Russia, there woulnd't have been a berlin wall, and maybe, no east Germany...

By '45 it was. Say what you will about the GDR, but it was better than randoms walking through the street hanging and shooting people for being cowards. Regardless of what came after, at least it ended the war.

As for the dude: I don't think this is any more news than the death of Edmund Hillary was. Old people eventually die, it shouldn't come as a surprise.

Indeed.

Also, it's DDR, not GDR. You of all people should know that. :p

Whooooo...for the German people. The swapping of envslavement by the totalitarian authoritarian Nazi dictatorship for the totalitarian authoritarian Soviet dictatorship is SUCH A GOOD THING!

Actually out of all of the so called Eastern Block countries the Germans where given quite a loose rein by Moscow...by Soviet standards.

The East Germans did quite a good job of dictating to themselves.

Whooooo...for the German people. The swapping of envslavement by the totalitarian authoritarian Nazi dictatorship for the totalitarian authoritarian Soviet dictatorship is SUCH A GOOD THING!

Woo for the German people? This isn't about the German people. This is about the destruction of the German peoples' army that had started a war that killed something like 40 million people. They were hardly enslaved. I imagine popular support for their government was pretty high when they ruled most of Europe.

Edit: And that photo, staged or not, is awesome.

Also, it's DDR, not GDR.
That depends what language we're talking about. If I want to call North Korea "DPRK", then for consistency's sake I have to call East Germany "GDR" - German Democratic Republic.

Indeed.

Also, it's DDR, not GDR. You of all people should know that. :p

Actually both are correct ;)

DDR is the German....

That depends what language we're talking about. If I want to call North Korea "DPRK", then for consistency's sake I have to call East Germany "GDR" - German Democratic Republic.

Oh. That is a good point. I stand corrected.

Oppression!?! Dr. Goebbels is laughing from the grave I bet, seeing as such naive foolish individuals such as yourself still believe his anti-communist propaganda.

Oh yes, because the Soveit union was the pinicale of freedom. I mean, you could pick which Government owned buissense to shop at after you returned from your government picked job, and buy things you don't even legaly own. And if you don't like it, and you say something about it in puplic out loud, you get arrested. Oh yes, because thats not oppresion.:rolleyes:

Oppression!?! Dr. Goebbels is laughing from the grave I bet, seeing as such naive foolish individuals such as yourself still believe his anti-communist propaganda.

Indeed it did lead to massive oppression.

Oh yes, because thats not oppresion.:rolleyes:
Let's hear it from the subjects: http://www.spiegel.de/fotostrecke/0,5538,26265,00.html

Oppression!?! Dr. Goebbels is laughing from the grave I bet, seeing as such naive foolish individuals such as yourself still believe his anti-communist propaganda.

If he were still alive I'd tell Goebbels to go hang himself on a gable.

The Soviet Union most certainly did oppress its people. Whether you want to believe it or not, it is the truth, and it is you, sir, whom Goebbels is laughing at. (Or would be if he still existed, which he doesn't, since he's dead. But that's not the point.)

Oh yes, because the Soveit union was the pinicale of freedom. I mean, you could pick which Government owned buissense to shop at after you returned from your government picked job, and buy things you don't even legaly own. And if you don't like it, and you say something about it in puplic out loud, you get arrested. Oh yes, because thats not oppresion.:rolleyes:

You forgot: And stand in long breadlines. ;)

Oppression!?! Dr. Goebbels is laughing from the grave I bet, seeing as such naive foolish individuals such as yourself still believe his anti-communist propaganda.

East Germany, communist? lol wut

Whooooo...for the German people. The swapping of envslavement by the totalitarian authoritarian Nazi dictatorship for the totalitarian authoritarian Soviet dictatorship is SUCH A GOOD THING!

You do know that your beloved apartheid government was filled with Nazi sympathizers, right?

Actually out of all of the so called Eastern Block countries the Germans where given quite a loose rein by Moscow...by Soviet standards.

Czechoslovakia and Hungary would disagree.

Let's hear it from the subjects: http://www.spiegel.de/fotostrecke/0,5538,26265,00.html

Actually from what I know the left-wing parties enjoy extraordinary support from the East.

Czechoslovakia and Hungary would disagree.

No, Albania would disagree.

Actually from what I know the left-wing parties enjoy extraordinary support from the East.
And if you go through the link, you'll see why.

No, Albania would disagree.

Albania left the WP, though.

Actually from what I know the left-wing parties enjoy extraordinary support from the East.

Because if you didn't support them, you either;
A: Disapeared forever
B:Used to test new torture techniques
C:Used as mannual labor to help improve the Berlin Wall.

Dance Dance Revolution?

Deustchland Demokratik Republik...I think. Something like that.

Albania left the WP, though.
Albania is evidence that an Eastern communist state could become completely independent, and indeed anti-Soviet, without being invaded.

Indeed.

Also, it's DDR, not GDR. You of all people should know that. :p

Dance Dance Revolution?

Dance Dance Revolution?

Deutsche Demokratische Republik.

Deutsche Demokratische Republik.

That sounds much more likely to be correct than my answer. Thank you. At least you can get some things right.

Albania is evidence that an Eastern communist state could become completely independent, and indeed anti-Soviet, without being invaded.

Those within the WP enjoyed no such right. Romania being the exception.

Whoosh! Way to totally NOT get the joke.

You're breaking my heart here!

There was a joke?

Psst. I got it. I was just pulling my standard "serious answer to non-serious question" routine.

Deustchland Demokratik Republik...I think. Something like that.
Deutsche Demokratische Republik.

Whoosh! Way to totally NOT get the joke.

You're breaking my heart here!

The GDR was socialist until after 1953 and then the revisionist, deviationist tumor came down from the Kremlin to infect eastern Europe. Albania was really the only true Marxist dictatorship of the proletariat.

See, the problem is the dictatorship part. Whether it's of the proletariat or bourgeoisie pretending to be proletariat, it's not the right way to do it.

The true revolution, my friend, is not one of violence or of direct conflict, but one of thought, of changing the way people think. That's how you truly render equality. Not through force of arms, but through the determination of thought.

The GDR was socialist until after 1953 and then the revisionist, deviationist tumor came down from the Kremlin to infect eastern Europe. Albania was really the only true Marxist dictatorship of the proletariat.

The GDR was socialist until after 1953 and then the revisionist, deviationist tumor came down from the Kremlin to infect eastern Europe. Albania was really the only true Marxist dictatorship of the proletariat.

The GDR was never remotely socialist, if Albania was truly Marx's vision of the dictatorship of the proletariat, then Marxism is one of the most evil ideologies ever to exist.

The GDR was never remotely socialist, if Albania was truly Marx's vision of the dictatorship of the proletariat, then Marxism is one of the most evil ideologies ever to exist.

Although, interestingly, it also had one of the highest living standards in the Eastern Bloc. However, in terms of closeness to socialism, I would say Hungary or Yugoslavia probably came closest; the same is true if Czechoslovakia had not failed in its attempt to reform during the Prague Spring.

Nonetheless, it's still true that the Communist era was far, far better than the alternative...Nazi rule would have been a nightmare that most people would hardly be able to conceive, let alone experience. To its credit, it did achieve some success in economic and social development in Eastern Europe, although at a high cost in lives and personal freedom.

The GDR was never remotely socialist, if Albania was truly Marx's vision of the dictatorship of the proletariat, then Marxism is one of the most evil ideologies ever to exist.

Uhhh, well I can't be bothered arguing with you, some people's political lines are so incorrect that it isn't worth the effort to bring them to a politically correct line.

Uhhh, well I can't be bothered arguing with you, some people's political lines are so incorrect that it isn't worth the effort to bring them to a politically correct line.

...

What?

"I can't argue so I'll just say you're wrong!" ? Is that the defense you choose? Come on. If your system is really that great you can persuade us to your viewpoint.

...

What?

"I can't argue so I'll just say you're wrong!" ? Is that the defense you choose? Come on. If your system is really that great you can persuade us to your viewpoint.

AP's political stance relies on killing those who don't agree with him. He's said so himself.

AP's political stance relies on killing those who don't agree with him. He's said so himself.

Well that's just rude. At least give us a sporting chance, ne?

AP's political stance relies on killing those who don't agree with him. He's said so himself.
See, I even fit in with your tripe of 'personal responsibility', you have the choice to serve the people or the choice to continue class agitation for the bourgeois, and you know where that leads.

See, I even fit in with your tripe of 'personal responsibility', you have the choice to serve the people or the choice to continue class agitation for the bourgeois, and you know where that leads.

So you do admit to being Andaras Prime, with a lesson unlearned from your banning. Not that it's a surprise of course, but it's good to have damning evidence now and again.

As for where it leads to, probably more pointless bickering and finger in ear syndrome while you loudly go "la la la I can't hear you! Stalin is great. La la la"

Oh, and do keep up those calls for death of everyone who doesn't follow your particular brand of inanity. I do wonder what the Australian police will have to say about a public agitator and inciter of violence.

See, I even fit in with your tripe of 'personal responsibility', you have the choice to serve the people or the choice to continue class agitation for the bourgeois, and you know where that leads.

The Gulag, Comrade AP?

The Gulag's which were nothing like the concentration and penal camps set up by the Nazi regime, and which certainly don't highlight your hypocrisy of supporting the Stalinist regime and its terrors?

The Gulag, Comrade AP?

The Gulag's which were nothing like the concentration and penal camps set up by the Nazi regime, and which certainly don't highlight your hypocrisy of supporting the Stalinist regime and its terrors?
You mean prison correct, where those who break the law go?

You mean prison correct, where those who break the law go?

Yes, of course. Breaking any number of obviously sane, dictatorial laws, such as daring to have freedom of speech; or criticizing the government; or daring to belong to a certain group that the government wishes to liquidate; or being a homosexual or other 'deviant.

I still wonder how you can actually defend such a system. Still, the Nazis still have their defenders, so it's no surprise that the other side of the dictatorial spectrum have theirs.

Yes, of course. Breaking any number of obviously sane, dictatorial laws, such as daring to have freedom of speech; or criticizing the government; or daring to belong to a certain group that the government wishes to liquidate; or being a homosexual or other 'deviant.

I still wonder how you can actually defend such a system. Still, the Nazis still have their defenders, so it's no surprise that the other side of the dictatorial spectrum have theirs.

Well firstly your slanderous claim of 'dictorial' laws, I really can't be bothered going to great length on this so instead I will quote for you reliable and extremely well sourced works which answer your incorrect attitudes in full and in much more absolute terms in more than the world limit for posts here.
http://clogic.eserver.org/2005/furr.html
http://www.plp.org/books/Stalin/book.html

Also it's ironic that you say the Nazi's, given that's the original source for most of the anti-communist info you cite against comrade Stalin, which was of course quickly adopted in full by the future McCarthy camp under the guise of 'Americanism'. The actual 'communist exterminations' idea was actually developed by Dr. Goebbels himself and used by Hitler to refer to 'Bolshevism' as Jewish extermination policy against non-Jews, and called the Slavic race "Lebensunwertes Leben"(life unworthy of life). Infact it was the privately-owned German businesses which used proletarian 'dissidents' as slave labor to build bombs etc, most being worked to death, that's raw capitalism is practise friend.

So it's you friend who defend Nazism, because Nazism is naturally practise of capitalism and the purest example of the 'free market' or bourgeois dictatorship.

See, I even fit in with your tripe of 'personal responsibility', you have the choice to serve the people or the choice to continue class agitation for the bourgeois, and you know where that leads.

From the Windows Vista thread.

It wouldn't be Microsoft if they didn't leave out an important part which you have to pay more money for, I mean I was expecting to get my 360 empty with a note on it saying 'you have to pay another 100$ for the hard drive':p

Why haven't you shot yourself then hmmm, oh participator of the capitalist system?

From the Windows Vista thread.



Why haven't you shot yourself then hmmm, oh participator of the capitalist system?

Wow, the old 'you participate in the society you live in, your reactionary' garbage, like I had much of a choice in the matter, I have heard it too many times thanks. Did not Marx buy food!?! (shock horror), I even heard Engels once paid for a house!?!

Fail.:rolleyes:

Well firstly your slanderous claim of 'dictorial' laws, I really can't be bothered going to great length on this so instead I will quote for you reliable and extremely well sourced works which answer your incorrect attitudes in full and in much more absolute terms in more than the world limit for posts here.
http://clogic.eserver.org/2005/furr.html
http://www.plp.org/books/Stalin/book.html

Also it's ironic that you say the Nazi's, given that's the original source for most of the anti-communist info you cite against comrade Stalin, which was of course quickly adopted in full by the future McCarthy camp under the guise of 'Americanism'. The actual 'communist exterminations' idea was actually developed by Dr. Goebbels himself and used by Hitler to refer to 'Bolshevism' as Jewish extermination policy against non-Jews, and called the Slavic race "Lebensunwertes Leben"(life unworthy of life). Infact it was the privately-owned German businesses which used proletarian 'dissidents' as slave labor to build bombs etc, most being worked to death, that's raw capitalism is practise friend.

So it's you friend who defend Nazism, because Nazism is naturally practise of capitalism and the purest example of the 'free market' or bourgeois dictatorship.

So who shot all those Polish officers in the Katyn forest?

Well firstly your slanderous claim of 'dictorial' laws, I really can't be bothered going to great length on this so instead I will quote for you reliable and extremely well sourced works which answer your incorrect attitudes in full and in much more absolute terms in more than the world limit for posts here.
http://clogic.eserver.org/2005/furr.html
http://www.plp.org/books/Stalin/book.html

Also it's ironic that you say the Nazi's, given that's the original source for most of the anti-communist info you cite against comrade Stalin, which was of course quickly adopted in full by the future McCarthy camp under the guise of 'Americanism'. The actual 'communist exterminations' idea was actually developed by Dr. Goebbels himself and used by Hitler to refer to 'Bolshevism' as Jewish extermination policy against non-Jews, and called the Slavic race "Lebensunwertes Leben"(life unworthy of life). Infact it was the privately-owned German businesses which used proletarian 'dissidents' as slave labor to build bombs etc, most being worked to death, that's raw capitalism is practise friend.

So it's you friend who defend Nazism, because Nazism is naturally practise of capitalism and the purest example of the 'free market' or bourgeois dictatorship.

Those sources, sir, are extremely biased, though I cannot imagine you will concede such a point, being such an idealogue. Using them is akin to using Nazi propaganda created by Herr Goebbels. I prefer to use more mainstream, and less biased sources. Sources such as 'The Third Reich: A New History' by Michael Burleigh, or 'Hitler & Stalin' by Alan Bullock. Even 'Gulag' by Anne Applebaum, a fine book.

Whilst a great deal of anti-Communist propaganda was indeed created by the Nazi regime, such blatant propaganda can easily be discarded, and in its place actual historical records can be used, such as those found in Moscow after the fall of the Iron Curtain.

To use one example of the dictatorial laws of the Soviet Union and their results, may I direct you to the aforementioned 'The Third Reich: A New History' by Michael Burleigh. To quote from Chapter Seven, page 533:

"In 1931-33, between five and seven million had starved to death in a terror famine, after the Communists siezed the 1932 harvest and then denied aid to the Ukraine. People attempting to reach regions where food was abundant were prevented from doing so. They ate barks and rats and eventually each other."

To continue, pages 553-554:

"As the Soviets pulled out in 1941, often with fleeing Communist Party officials in the van, their security agencies liquidated thousands of nationalist leaders."

Or perhaps some examples of Soviet brutality from other areas under their control, from page 535:

"During their occupation of the Baltic states in 1940-1941, the Soviets killed or deported an estimated 34, 250 Latvians, nearly 60,000 Estonians and 75,000 Lithuanians in the interests of 'sovietising' these subtly distinctive societies."

These quotes and facts are no mere Nazi propaganda, EA. These are based on documents recovered during the fall of the Iron Curtain, particularly in the Moscow archives, and cannot be tainted with a claim of 'Nazi propaganda' in any way. They illustrate the brutality of the Soviet regime, which liquidated or deported hundreds of thousands for no other crime than being different. And of course this does not even touch what occured in mainland Russia itself to the population there.

So who shot all those Polish officers in the Katyn forest?

Again, it was the work of Dr. Goebbels himself in an effort to drum up European support for Operation Barbarossa and anti-communist sentiment generally.
http://www.stalinsociety.org.uk/katyn.html

So who shot all those Polish officers in the Katyn forest?

Actually, they were executed by Soviet soldiers. The wikipedia page has a list of sources, and a quote from Michael Burleigh will back this up:

"The discovery in April 1943 of the mass graves at Katyn, where the Soviets had slain fifteen thousand Poles..."

'Michael Burleigh, The Third Reich: A New History, p. 455

EDIT: The wikipedia link for the original documents ordering the massacre, as signed by Stalin himself, and found after the fall of the Iron Curtain:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katyn_massacre#Original_documents

Wow, the old 'you participate in the society you live in, your reactionary' garbage, like I had much of a choice in the matter, I have heard it too many times thanks. Did not Marx buy food!?! (shock horror), I even heard Engels once paid for a house!?!

Fail.:rolleyes:

You have a choice of starting your own community outside of traditional capitalist society. But you do not take it.

Your participation is beyond that of basic necessities, and into self serving luxury goods. Thereby, you support the capitalist system through your actions. Yet you rail against it. You are a two faced hypocrite.

Mainstream sources? I assume you mean bourgeois sources. As for the Moscow files, it's even widely acknowledged today Khrushchev falsified alot of info and exaggerated other parts, taking some out of context and placing them elsewhere etc, this was done to make his Secret Speech for valid and to slander comrade Stalin more. So with that in mind, it's not entirely outrageous to suggest that Brezhnev and his revisionist colleagues and successors fabricated Soviet documents to make the 'legacy' of Stalin bad and thus themselves the worst.

Gorbachev of course, whose avowed goal was to 'destroy communism' would certainly fit the picture for those kinds of activities, being that he support bourgeois social-democracy and wanted to make himself President of Russia and a new economic oligarch after Soviet assets were privatized, yet he didn't count on how much the Russian people hated him for betrayal of the workers.

Mainstream sources? I assume you mean bourgeois sources. As for the Moscow files, it's even widely acknowledged today Khrushchev falsified alot of info and exaggerated other parts, taking some out of context and placing them elsewhere etc, this was done to make his Secret Speech for valid and to slander comrade Stalin more. So with that in mind, it's not entirely outrageous to suggest that Brezhnev and his revisionist colleagues and successors fabricated Soviet documents to make the 'legacy' of Stalin bad and thus themselves the worst.

Gorbachev of course, whose avowed goal was to 'destroy communism' would certainly fit the picture for those kinds of activities, being that he support bourgeois social-democracy and wanted to make himself President of Russia and a new economic oligarch after Soviet assets were privatized, yet he didn't count on how much the Russian people hated him for betrayal of the workers.

So instead of counter-arguing or debating, you will do nothing but proclaim my sources to be in error and make a long and trivial argument about another Soviet leader?

At least the Neo-Nazi's debate someone who argues against them. It takes a whole new viewpoint to simply ignore everything. Kudos, sir.

EDIT: For example, you will not concede that the Katyn massacre was, in fact, by Soviet forces under the order of Stalin himself?

Your participation is beyond that of basic necessities, and into self serving luxury goods. Thereby, you support the capitalist system through your actions. Yet you rail against it. You are a two faced hypocrite.

Do you know me? No you don't. It's not like I have a choice, and I keep my 'participation' to a bear minimum, although I am not afraid to use bourgeois institutions etc to further my own communist ideals, that's practicality friend, read Lenin.

Do you know me? No you don't. It's not like I have a choice, and I keep my 'participation' to a bear minimum, although I am not afraid to use bourgeois institutions etc to further my own communist ideals, that's practicality friend, read Lenin.
If that's true, explain this:
I was expecting to get my 360 empty with a note on it saying 'you have to pay another 100$ for the hard drive':p
I was unaware that an Xbox was a necessity

Your communist ideals include the participation in a capitalist system to acquire luxury goods that are, by communist standards, not according to need?

Marx would laugh in your face. Actually, he'd probably hit you with a bottle for distorting his ideas so badly.

And do not presume to tell another to read a source when you deliberately proclaim all other sources to be false. Again with the hypocrisy. You preach like an evangelical.
I think you know you have a point when personal attacks are the only weapon used against you. Again with insulting me for being born in a society I didn't have a choice in. Now can you please stop intentionally derailing this topic by referring to my personal life.

Do you know me? No you don't. It's not like I have a choice, and I keep my 'participation' to a bear minimum, although I am not afraid to use bourgeois institutions etc to further my own communist ideals, that's practicality friend, read Lenin.

Your communist ideals include the participation in a capitalist system to acquire luxury goods that are, by communist standards, not according to need?

Marx would laugh in your face. Actually, he'd probably hit you with a bottle for distorting his ideas so badly.

And do not presume to tell another to read a source when you deliberately proclaim all other sources to be false. Again with the hypocrisy. You preach like an evangelical.

What amazes me is that often we are exposed to stories from people who either still live in former Iron Curtain countries or are former residents thereof, and yet, somehow despite that many share the outlook that the Soviet Union was a dictatorship, that those people are wrong because AP says otherwise. In fact, I find it quite curious. I wonder what my grandparents-in-law could tell me about living in a like Ukraine... in the 1930s....

Despite evidence of gulags and orders for internal exiles and resettlements as well as other evidence pointing toward mass killings and denial of democracy, AP continues to deny the evidence using links filled with SOVIET propaganda and still insists that we're using links with western and Nazi propaganda, curiouser and curiouser...

I think you know you have a point when personal attacks are the only weapon used against you. Again with insulting me for being born in a society I didn't have a choice in. Now can you please stop intentionally derailing this topic by referring to my personal life.

I ask again. Will you debate properly by analysing my sources and debate my points, or just continue to ignore them and make dire dialectical rants?

I think you know you have a point when personal attacks are the only weapon used against you. Again with insulting me for being born in a society I didn't have a choice in. Now can you please stop intentionally derailing this topic by referring to my personal life.

Pot, meet kettle. You always decry other sources as false and propaganda without even proving a thing, but cry unfair when you have been shown to be nothing more than a two faced shyster?

Oh the irony.

Lenin and Stalin were both born into capitalistic societies. Yet they went on to build this society that you deem a communist utopia. If they are such heroes to you, why have you not emulated them, rather than indulging in bourgeois tendencies? Is not everyone born equal? Or are you merely concocting more lies to safeguard your capitalist lifestyle, while decrying the evils of capitalism hmm?

You don't have a point. You never did. This thread was derailed the moment you stuck your fingers in your ears when faced with evidence that showed the lies that were your claims.

Non Aligned States, have you ever received welfare from the state, a scholorship or any other assistance from the state? (if you say prefer to be called a hypocrite for deserting capitalist ideology)

Are we done trying to attack me for everything in my personal life?

well thats one less communist.

well thats one less communist.

Superb commentary, brilliant.

I've never seen better.

Mainstream sources? I assume you mean bourgeois sources. As for the Moscow files, it's even widely acknowledged today Khrushchev falsified alot of info and exaggerated other parts, taking some out of context and placing them elsewhere etc, this was done to make his Secret Speech for valid and to slander comrade Stalin more. So with that in mind, it's not entirely outrageous to suggest that Brezhnev and his revisionist colleagues and successors fabricated Soviet documents to make the 'legacy' of Stalin bad and thus themselves the worst.

Gorbachev of course, whose avowed goal was to 'destroy communism' would certainly fit the picture for those kinds of activities, being that he support bourgeois social-democracy and wanted to make himself President of Russia and a new economic oligarch after Soviet assets were privatized, yet he didn't count on how much the Russian people hated him for betrayal of the workers.

Herr Goebbels would love you!

Non Aligned States, have you ever received welfare from the state, a scholorship or any other assistance from the state? (if you say prefer to be called a hypocrite for deserting capitalist ideology)


Wow, lovely reversal there. You don't know my stance on the issues of economic and social governance, yet presume to assign one to me. But then again, I don't proclaim mine. You on the other hand, do so quite loudly, and advocate the deaths of those whose stances are different from yours.

And for more dodging of the points. You fail.


Are we done trying to attack me for everything in my personal life?

If I wanted to attack your personal life, you would know what it really means to have your personal life under attack.

My condolences to his family.

As an amusing sidenote, I didn't realize that Pravda online and the Pravda newspaper are two totally different news sources, owned by different people, and approaching the news with two totally different points of view. Amusing, don't you think?

Really?

Wow this is a damn shame. Such a man who did such a great thing.

Mikhail Minin was just a soldier fighting against evil, doesn't mean he was for Soviet oppression does it?

Nonetheless, it's still true that the Communist era was far, far better than the alternative...Nazi rule would have been a nightmare that most people would hardly be able to conceive, let alone experience. To its credit, it did achieve some success in economic and social development in Eastern Europe, although at a high cost in lives and personal freedom.

True, the eastern countries did at certain points produce statistics indicating high living standards (well relative to before, certainly not high compared to the west), but then you always have to take these statistics with a little pinch of salt.

Edit: And yes they were probably just better then the Nazis, but remember that Nazi Germany before the war also had high living standards (as long as you weren't a persecuted minority, or member of the opposition).

Uhhh, well I can't be bothered arguing with you, some people's political lines are so incorrect that it isn't worth the effort to bring them to a politically correct line.

If I'm so wrong then it will be easy to show me how Albania's style of governence wasn't a steeming pile of shit. To quote someone (can't remember who) they were so insane they thought Russia were a bunch of pussies.

However this doesn't mean I think they were worse than the Nazis.

If I'm so wrong then it will be easy to show me how Albania's style of governence wasn't a steeming pile of shit. To quote someone (can't remember who) they were so insane they thought Russia were a bunch of pussies.

However this doesn't mean I think they were worse than the Nazis.
A country of about 2.5 million, in which 400,000 pillboxes were built, to try and keep the Russians 'scared' and its own people worried all of the time has something deeply, deeply wrong with it.

As to whether they would have been worse off with the Nazis - hard to tell. They either got starved and used as slave labour under Communist control, or staved and used as slaved labour under Nazi control. The armbands of those in charge is all that would have been different.

Uhhh, well I can't be bothered arguing with you, some people's political lines are so incorrect that it isn't worth the effort to bring them to a politically correct line.

Ok welcome to the ignore list. You're so willfully ignorant on such a wide variety of topics dealing with history that you serve no purpose other than to spout propaganda and raise my blood pressure. Quite enough out of you.

Non Aligned States, cut it out.

That a poster's declared actions appear inconsistent with his declared beliefs is a legitimate debating point, from which you may challenge the consistency of his beliefs. You did so, and should have left it there.

Stating your opinion that the poster is a "two-faced-hypocrite" or "a two-faced shyster" is, however, a personal attack, and hence, flaming. Stop before you're stopped. Please check your TGs.

Eureka Australis, the tenor of your posts is provocative and, though not directly flaming, could be construed as flamebait. In this one thread, you have accused others of slander, Godwined and dismissed another poster's views as "tripe". I strongly recommend you adopt a more neutral tone.

Mainstream sources? I assume you mean bourgeois sources. As for the Moscow files, it's even widely acknowledged today Khrushchev falsified alot of info and exaggerated other parts, taking some out of context and placing them elsewhere etc, this was done to make his Secret Speech for valid and to slander comrade Stalin more. So with that in mind, it's not entirely outrageous to suggest that Brezhnev and his revisionist colleagues and successors fabricated Soviet documents to make the 'legacy' of Stalin bad and thus themselves the worst.



So why were the documents designed to discredit Stalin never released/made public?
Why did they lie in the Kemlin archive until the 1990's?
Why did the USSR maintain that 'Germany committed the killings' until the fall of the communist regime in Poland?

You sir are a dreamer who has no idea of the reality of life under Stalin(or under a communist dictatorship for that matter)
Very few people in the west like me have any idea either, but I would rather be a poor oppressed prole living in the west than a 'free' member of the "worker's paradise"