NationStates Jolt Archive

For an extra credit assignment I had to read this short story. Reading it made me mad(as I am sure it was supposed to) and I responded as I saw fit. Now I want to know what you all think about this story. check it out here:

http://instruct.westvalley.edu/lafave/hb.html

awesome! i remember reading this in high school and was always saddened that i didn't know the name of the story. i didn't get mad...i sorta chuckled at the overzealous irony of it all. i like to bring up the story when ppl start complaining and ranting about freedom/equality. thanks for the reminder.

An interesting idea, but fortunately neither possible nor representative of what proponents of equality want or propose.

Kurt Vonnegut was a socialist.

Those who use this short story to demonize those advocating political and economic equality are simply engaging in equivocation.

Kurt Vonnegut, just like Orwell, is another name in the long line of anti-communist bourgeois agitators disguised as 'socialists'.

Kurt Vonnegut, just like Orwell, is another name in the long liar of anti-communist bourgeois agitators disguised as 'socialists'.

That can't be right.

So-called bourgeois agitators (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarian_socialists)

Libertarian socialists assert that when power is exercised, as exemplified by the economic, social, or physical dominance of one individual over another, the burden of proof is always on the authoritarian to justify their action as legitimate when taken against its effect of narrowing the scope of human freedom. Typical examples of legitimate exercise of power would include the use of physical force to rescue someone from being injured by an oncoming vehicle, or self-defense. Libertarian socialists typically oppose rigid and stratified structures of authority, be they political, economic, or social.

Oh, wait, never mind. Sounds exactly like bourgeois logic. :rolleyes: :headbang:

Kurt Vonnegut, just like Orwell, is another name in the long line of anti-communist bourgeois agitators disguised as 'socialists'.

You must be mistaken. Kurt Vonnegut, to my knowledge, was not a Leninist.

Read it in grade 8. It pissed me off that the teacher couldn't find a unique, challenging or vaguely interesting story for us to read.

For an extra credit assignment I had to read this short story. Reading it made me mad(as I am sure it was supposed to) and I responded as I saw fit. Now I want to know what you all think about this story. check it out here:

It is a perfect description of "no child left behind".
Ironic that the Republicans are working hard to achieve a goal people used to associate with commies...

never read it but it was kind of interesting I guess

also they died happy, does that mean anything?

I remember that story. Instead of making the stupid smart, they made the smart stupid.

I was always bemused, but not surprised by the fact that the government thought it more logical to lower everyone to a lower given mean rather than raise everyone to a higher one; despite the obvious indications that this would not make sense from any kind of perspective, they nonetheless went through with dragging people down rather than lifting them up.

It's a criticism of the sheer ignorance of attempting to achieve equality of outcome by dumbing down rather than lifting up; there is absolutely no justifiable reason why a person capable of increasing their abilities should be prevented from doing so. All that does is enforce some mythical standard of "fairness" that has not existed and cannot; fairness is not penalizing one person to give another a better chance, it's making sure that other person can achieve similar success if they invest the effort to improve themselves.

Ridiculous! Fails to take into account the march of progress! Soon, we will have nanotechnology to correct the gross genetic flaws of our beings; like questioning authority. :p

I thing Rob Grant's Incompetence is a much more amusing and plausible story about the quest for equality taken to extremes. Harrison Bergeron is just too far from any plausible future reality to give its message any punch.

It's a criticism of the sheer ignorance of attempting to achieve equality of outcome by dumbing down rather than lifting up

The people who have advocated systems of distribution that could reasonably be called "equality of outcome" have never concerned themselves with forcibly equalizing natural qualities in any sense.

A reasonable interpretation of economic equality might take into account such natural differences when, say, determining "need"--a blind person needs the resources necessary to deal with blindness, a non-blind person doesn't. But that's perfectly ethical and perfectly reasonable, and in no sense involves gouging out people's eyes.

Equality is not sameness--not as it's used in a political or economic context. Indeed, if equality is to be genuine and substantive, equality necessitates respect for differences.

I remember that story. Instead of making the stupid smart, they made the smart stupid.

one point for irony, and another for creating an interesting image.:cool:

I think it's saying that space flight will only be available to physically stronger people, who also happen to be insane in some way. Music will get better, but only after banning two types.
Seems like nonsense to me

That story was so random...

I always thought it was a parody of Ayn Rand, especially this part:

Clanking, clownish, and huge, Harrison stood in the center of the studio. The knob of the uprooted studio door was still in his hand. Ballerinas, technicians, musicians, and announcers cowered on their knees before him, expecting to die.

“I am the Emperor!” cried Harrison. “Do you hear? I am the Emperor! Everybody must do what I say at once!” He stamped his foot and the studio shook.

“Even as I stand here –” he bellowed, “crippled, hobbled, sickened – I am a greater ruler than any man who ever lived! Now watch me become what I can become!”

Harrison tore the straps of his handicap harness like wet tissue paper, tore straps guaranteed to support five thousand pounds.

Harrison’s scrap–iron handicaps crashed to the floor.

Harrison thrust his thumbs under the bar of the padlock that secured his head harness. The bar snapped like celery. Harrison smashed his headphones and spectacles against the wall.

He flung away his rubber–ball nose, revealed a man that would have awed Thor, the god of thunder.

“I shall now select my Empress!” he said, looking down on the cowering people. “Let the first woman who dares rise to her feet claim her mate and her throne!”

A moment passed, and then a ballerina arose, swaying like a willow.

Harrison plucked the mental handicap from her ear, snapped off her physical handicaps with marvelous delicacy. Last of all, he removed her mask.

She was blindingly beautiful.

“Now” said Harrison, taking her hand, “shall we show the people the meaning of the word dance? Music!” he commanded.

The musicians scrambled back into their chairs, and Harrison stripped them of their handicaps, too. “Play your best,” he told them, “and I’ll make you barons and dukes and earls.”

The music began. It was normal at first – cheap, silly, false. But Harrison snatched two musicians from their chairs, waved them like batons as he sang the music as he wanted it played. He slammed them back into their chairs.

The music began again and was much improved.

Harrison and his Empress merely listened to the music for a while – listened gravely, as though synchronizing their heartbeats with it.

They shifted their weights to their toes.

Harrison placed his big hands on the girl’s tiny waist, letting her sense the weightlessness that would soon be hers.

And then, in an explosion of joy and grace, into the air they sprang!

Not only were the laws of the land abandoned, but the law of gravity and the laws of motion as well.

They reeled, whirled, swiveled, flounced, capered, gamboled, and spun.

They leaped like deer on the moon.

The studio ceiling was thirty feet high, but each leap brought the dancers nearer to it. It became their obvious intention to kiss the ceiling.

They kissed it.

And then, neutralizing gravity with love and pure will, they remained suspended in air inches below the ceiling, and they kissed each other for a long, long time.

Basically, it seems to poke fun at the short-sightedness and stupid strawmen invented by people who oppose equality - as well as ridiculing the absurd praises they sing for gifted individuals (e.g. Harrison Bergeron being able to fly through sheer will power).

I rread that story bakc when I was in (I think) 6th grade -- which would be 1990-1991l That "future" sucks.

being a person who has worked hard to be good at what i do, and is working hard to utilize the natural gifts that have been given me, the thought of being forced to comply to a lower standard, and not being allowed to surpass it, drives me nuts. i enjoy the opportunity to become better then i was, i grow through competition and thrive from having a rival. anything that tries to stop the latter from happening becomes the new rival and must be overcome and beaten. that thought for me extends to all i associate with and i try to help them better themselves. the way i see it(which is my opinion so take it as such), life becomes better as we ourselves become better through progression. if we stop becoming better, then we don't just stay where we are, but rather we start regressing. anything that facilitates the latter must be stopped, overcome, destroyed, or OBLITERATED!!!

another thing that pisses me off is the thought of people being punished for things that they have no control over such as their natural features or strengths. making someone become weak just because someone else might be offended that they're not as strong, whether it's because they are smaller or lazy or whatever, is one of the BIGGEST LOADS OF BOVINE DUNG I HAVE EVER HERD!!!
*pant pant*
*end rant*

another thing that pisses me off is the thought of people being punished for things that they have no control over such as their natural features or strengths.Understandable.
Does this mean that it also pisses you off when people are rewarded for things that they have no control over, such as their natural features or strengths?

being a person who has worked hard to be good at what i do, and is working hard to utilize the natural gifts that have been given me, the thought of being forced to comply to a lower standard, and not being allowed to surpass it, drives me nuts. i enjoy the opportunity to become better then i was, i grow through competition and thrive from having a rival. anything that tries to stop the latter from happening becomes the new rival and must be overcome and beaten. that thought for me extends to all i associate with and i try to help them better themselves. the way i see it(which is my opinion so take it as such), life becomes better as we ourselves become better through progression. if we stop becoming better, then we don't just stay where we are, but rather we start regressing. anything that facilitates the latter must be stopped, overcome, destroyed, or OBLITERATED!!!

another thing that pisses me off is the thought of people being punished for things that they have no control over such as their natural features or strengths. making someone become weak just because someone else might be offended that they're not as strong, whether it's because they are smaller or lazy or whatever, is one of the BIGGEST LOADS OF BOVINE DUNG I HAVE EVER HERD!!!
*pant pant*
*end rant*

interesting, so what if someone was born with a propensity to violence and had no control over their actions per se, they suffered from domestic violence, does that mean they should be destroyed.
Of course you're right in part of what you say, but i thought i'd point out where it could catch itself out.

For an extra credit assignment I had to read this short story. Reading it made me mad(as I am sure it was supposed to) and I responded as I saw fit. Now I want to know what you all think about this story. check it out here:

http://instruct.westvalley.edu/lafave/hb.html

The Story pissed me off. They claimed he was a genius yet what does he do? takes over the only tv studio (after all, no competition) and declares himself Emperor then DANCES?

Not a well thought out plan.

and notice that the Handicapper General didn't have any handicapps... hmmm... so much for equality. :rolleyes: :p

An interesting idea, but fortunately neither possible nor representative of what proponents of equality want or propose.

Unless you're of the East-Asian strains, such as a Maoist, or perhaps a Cambodian Communist, that is.

That story isn't about "equality".

What everyone is forgetting about this is how hilarious it is.

Like I said, I see it more as a parody that pokes fun at the stupid stories invented by opponents of equality (*cough* Ayn Rand *cough*).

Equality is different in the eyes of everyone, economically, politically, and otherwise. Because of this and the innate need to compete amongst ourselves, humans will never achieve equality.
Humans don't have an innate need for anything other than biological functions such as eating, drinking, sleeping, breathing, etc.

Every other need is a product of society.

Furthermore:

1. Just because there are different types of equality doesn't mean we can't reach a common definition for a specific type, such as economic equality for example.

2. Even if we can never reach an abstract ideal, that doesn't mean we shouldn't continue to strive towards it. We will likely never eradicate murder and rape. Does that mean we should stop trying to reduce murder and rape as much as possible?

Equality is different in the eyes of everyone, economically, politically, and otherwise. Because of this and the innate need to compete amongst ourselves, humans will never achieve equality. All we do now is simply ease and subdue our consciousness mind that wants to see it happen, like an idealistic child with ridiculously good nagging skills.

Personally, I don't care for equality of outcome or opportunity. While I do think there is a moral duty, for the sake of trust, reciprocity, and self-actualization, that social authorities should be generous to those who are in their care, I do not think that anyone has the legal power to force anyone to sacrifice for them.

It's funny when people mistake equality in the political sense for equality in the 'exactly the same in every way' sense.

It's funny when people mistake equality in the political sense for equality in the 'exactly the same in every way' sense.

I would have said "horrifying", but 'funny' works too.

Humans don't have an innate need for anything other than biological functions such as eating, drinking, sleeping, breathing, etc.

Every other need is a product of society.

I call bullshit.

If there's no innate need for anything but what you've listed, why has every culture that exists or has ever existed left their mark in the form of some kind of artwork? Whether it be cave paintings or decorated clay pots or carved figures, ever culture feels the need to create.

ART NOT APATHY!

For an extra credit assignment I had to read this short story. Reading it made me mad(as I am sure it was supposed to) and I responded as I saw fit. Now I want to know what you all think about this story. check it out here:

http://instruct.westvalley.edu/lafave/hb.html

I'll be damned. I haven't seen that story in ages. Sounds a lot like France. Jk, jk :p

I would have said "horrifying", but 'funny' works too.
Well it'd be horrifying if anyone with more than two braincells made the mistake. Much more so if that person were in the position to enact laws based on their grievous misunderstanding.
I call bullshit.

If there's no innate need for anything but what you've listed, why has every culture that exists or has ever existed left their mark in the form of some kind of artwork? Whether it be cave paintings or decorated clay pots or carved figures, ever culture feels the need to create.

ART NOT APATHY!

I don't think anyone has ever died from lack of art.