NationStates Jolt Archive

Until people get hurt that is.

A Polish teenager allegedly turned the tram system in the city of Lodz into his own personal train set, triggering chaos and derailing four vehicles in the process. Twelve people were injured in one of the incidents.

The 14-year-old modified a TV remote control so that it could be used to change track points, The Telegraph reports. Local police said the youngster trespassed in tram depots to gather information needed to build the device. The teenager told police that he modified track setting for a prank.

"He studied the trams and the tracks for a long time and then built a device that looked like a TV remote control and used it to manoeuvre the trams and the tracks," said Miroslaw Micor, a spokesman for Lodz police.

"He had converted the television control into a device capable of controlling all the junctions on the line and wrote in the pages of a school exercise book where the best junctions were to move trams around and what signals to change.

"He treated it like any other schoolboy might a giant train set, but it was lucky nobody was killed. Four trams were derailed, and others had to make emergency stops that left passengers hurt. He clearly did not think about the consequences of his actions," Micor added.

Transport command and control systems are commonly designed by engineers with little exposure or knowledge about security using commodity electronics and a little native wit. The apparent ease with which Lodz's tram network was hacked, even by these low standards, is still a bit of an eye opener.

Problems with the signalling system on Lodz's tram network became apparent on Tuesday when a driver attempting to steer his vehicle to the right was involuntarily taken to the left. As a result the rear wagon of the train jumped the rails and collided with another passing tram. Transport staff immediately suspected outside interference.

Link (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/01/11/tram_hack/)

You know someone is going to try this in the State now, and they'll do it so badly that when they get caught, they will die of embarrassment, and I do mean die.

What do they mean he "studied the tracks and built a remote control?" How the fuck does he do that? Better yet, why can the tracks be controlled by (I assume) RF signals?

What do they mean he "studied the tracks and built a remote control?" How the fuck does he do that? Better yet, why can the tracks be controlled by (I assume) RF signals?

signal analyser to get the frequencies used. and tracks are controlled by radio signals as opposed to actually have someone standing there to manually switch tracks if need be.

you can bet that here, authorities will be looking to see if our systems would be hackable and millions will be spent to correct it if it's found to be possible.

Hmmm, I wonder if someone will try that here.

Hmm sounds a little more advanced then the "battery on the railroad track" that makes the crossing gates stay down. I use to have fun with that one as a young trouble maker.

Guarantee you that it is another Pol that tries it Stateside. Granted, my (partial) countrymen are great when it comes to labor, but this thing is just too good for the Polish-American community to pass up. And knowing my grandfather's family's affinity for trains, something tells me I'll end up involved somewhere down the road.

Ready the popcorn.

Give the kid a job. Even MacGyver would go, "Damn!"

Give the kid a job. Even MacGyver would go, "Damn!"

More then half of NSG is scratching their collective heads and wondering who the hell "MacGyver" is.

More then half of NSG is scratching their collective heads and wondering who the hell "MacGyver" is.

Shame on them. MacGyver was the man. He could build jetpacks out of pressure hoses, bombs out of soap, and cracked the 'lost' inventions of old dead guys in less than an hour.

Shame on them. MacGyver was the man. He could build jetpacks out of pressure hoses, bombs out of soap, and cracked the 'lost' inventions of old dead guys in less than an hour.

That show was funny to watch. You always wondered what the hell he was going to make next out of that tinfoil, toothfloss and the piece of gum.

That show was funny to watch. You always wondered what the hell he was going to make next out of that tinfoil, toothfloss and the piece of gum.

I always laughed when some dipshit villain locked him in a kitchen or pantry. :p

Macgyver was the child of Roseanne and Homer Simpson and inherited all the negative qualities of both parents.

Macgyver was the child of Roseanne and Homer Simpson and inherited all the negative qualities of both parents.

What makes you say that? I don't see a single trace of Homer's idiocy in that man.

he had a cool mullet too!

http://forevergeek.com/images/macgyver.jpg

Why don't they latch onto this kid. Get him into college - full scholarship - teach him proper engineering and challenge him enough to keep him out of mischief. He's obviously too smart for his teachers.

What makes you say that? I don't see a single trace of Homer's idiocy in that man.

Homer's idocy? Read Rosanne's blog (oh, yes) and tell me who the bigger idiot is. ;) It's painful.

Also, I can't help but wonder if the perp looked anything like:

http://c14.wrzuta.pl/wm462/dd2c363b0026a8e345fb9ddd/Czesio

:p

Macgyver was the child of Roseanne and Homer Simpson and inherited all the negative qualities of both parents.

funny that Macgyver was on the air before both of those shows you claim...

funny that Macgyver was on the air before both of those shows you claim...
Obviously he'd built a time-machine at some point... ;)

most ctc IS hard wired rather then using radio links like that. but some tram systems, especially older ones, san francisco's muni comes to mind, did have some sort of magnetic or rf pickus in the track that were triggered by signals from the passing trams that set the route switches ahead of them.

such systems are vulnerable of course, but at the time the were built, the were the economicly favorable alternative. many local rail transit systems in the early half of the 20th century having been build on a shoestring.

i don't think you're going to find this particular vulnerability with the reinvented 'light rail' trolly systems built/rebuild since the 80s. only in some of the larger older cities where old and relatively un-updated systems still opperate, and even most of those have been upgraded to light rail or near light rail standards.

still it doesn't suprise me that publicly and politically neglected systems, still in place because they are still heavily utilized and relied upon, but otherwise ignored for ages politiclly because the're not as 'sexy' as newer public works projects might occasionally expose quirky vulnerabilities.

alarm systems in some banks and other such places could probable by made to trigger falsely by remote means if someone wanted to create temporary havoc. my guess is there are a lot more such vulnerabilities like that, then the example given.

=^^=
.../\...

Hmm sounds a little more advanced then the "battery on the railroad track" that makes the crossing gates stay down. I use to have fun with that one as a young trouble maker.
I remember doing that , too. Glad those delinquent days are in the past. Someone would probably have prosecuted for 'terrorism' nowadays.

I remember doing that , too. Glad those delinquent days are in the past. Someone would probably have prosecuted for 'terrorism' nowadays.

what happens when you do that? And you have to admire the kid in some way, luckily he didn't kill anyone, he should get a better education and more challenges instead of a punishment (or at least both).

what happens when you do that? And you have to admire the kid in some way, luckily he didn't kill anyone, he should get a better education and more challenges instead of a punishment (or at least both).
The boy risked the lives of hundred of passengers. He should get some serious punishments. Letting trams crash into one another has far surpassed simple mischievement.

Congratulations! You are not officially the stupidest and smartest child of your generation! Who says general inteligence exists? :D

The boy risked the lives of hundred of passengers. He should get some serious punishments. Letting trams crash into one another has far surpassed simple mischievement.

yeah, you're right, I wasn't thinking, very smart though that he managed to do that.

Now, what happens if you place batteries on tram tracks?

you can bet that here, authorities will be looking to see if our systems would be hackable and millions will be spent to correct it if it's found to be possible.


LOLOLOL!!!! Dude....I admire your tongue in cheekness ;)

Obviously he'd built a time-machine at some point... ;)
Out of a rubber band, two pieces of string, and a paperclip.

Once again we're shown that one can be a fucking genius, but still not have any common sense. Someone should give that kid a scholarship before he starts using his powers for evil.

what happens when you do that? And you have to admire the kid in some way, luckily he didn't kill anyone, he should get a better education and more challenges instead of a punishment (or at least both).

Why will a free education and more challenges lead him away from a life of crime? Clearly he was intelligent enough to make this scheme work with the total disregard for the safety of the passengers on the train. That kind of behavior isn't something that should be rewarded.

Once again we're shown that one can be a fucking genius, but still not have any common sense. Someone should give that kid a scholarship before he starts using his powers for evil.

Nonsense.

He's already "using his powers for evil". He injured 12 people and endangered a great deal more. I don't see how rewarding his criminal behavior is going to change anything.

Nonsense.

He's already "using his powers for evil". He injured 12 people and endangered a great deal more. I don't see how rewarding his criminal behavior is going to change anything.

An outlet for his intelligence will keep him from such criminal behaviour. And he should obviously be punished for what he did, but that's no reason to ignore his apparent intelligence and knack for signals and electronics.

well i'd give credit for the 14 year old for using his intelligence, but the motivation behind derailing trains is not a clever one, and dangerous

his next task will be making the trains run on time :p

Get him on our side, quick.

Until people get hurt that is.



Link (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/01/11/tram_hack/)

You know someone is going to try this in the State now, and they'll do it so badly that when they get caught, they will die of embarrassment, and I do mean die.

That's so weird...yet cool. But the only place you can try this is San Diego, and it probably wouldn't work.

You know someone is going to try this in the State now, and they'll do it so badly that when they get caught, they will die of embarrassment, and I do mean die.

Give that boy a scholarship to MIT. :p

Why don't they latch onto this kid. Get him into college - full scholarship - teach him proper engineering and challenge him enough to keep him out of mischief. He's obviously too smart for his teachers.

Good point. A lot of people who get into mischief like this are unchallenged and have WAY too much free time on their hands. This could help turn this situation into something positive.
Of course, there's always the chance we have an incorrigible. But I like to believe this one can be converted.

his next task will be making the trains run on time :p

Hey, the he's only a kid! At least give him a challenge he might succeed.

Well, I think that an appropriate punishment might be, you know, paying the medical bills for those injured and having to work to repair/pay for the repairs of the trams damaged.

Then if you want to reward his genius, go ahead.

He'll work part-time, sure.

Hire him as a security consultant for the no doubt impending upgrades to the rail system and pay him a pittance.

Well, I think that an appropriate punishment might be, you know, paying the medical bills for those injured and having to work to repair/pay for the repairs of the trams damaged.

Then if you want to reward his genius, go ahead.

He'll work part-time, sure.

Until people get hurt that is.



Link (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/01/11/tram_hack/)

You know someone is going to try this in the State now, and they'll do it so badly that when they get caught, they will die of embarrassment, and I do mean die.

They are probably closer to doing it than you think. I am a conductor for one of the USA`s six Class I railroads, I`ll leave them unnamed. In track sections that are under Remote Traffic Control (RTC), switches into sidings and stop signals are controlled by a dispatcher who may be 100`s of miles away. The dispatcher has a computer display that shows him how everything is lined and the approximate location of train traffic. The dispatchers commands to switches and signals is sent via microwave radio frequencies to that particular location. Railfans or as we call them foamers, have aquired technology where they can use their PC to see what a dispatcher sees. This and the use of radio scanners allows these people to know what is running, where it is and in some instances, who is onboard.
If one were a big enough techno-geek (some of these foamers are), what this kid did is possible here as well. There is a safety feature in all of this called Track Indication. Track Indication is what gives the dispatcher an approximate idea of where his traffic is. The Indication will cause the dispatchers display screen to show red between two signals, known as a block. If he has a indication in a block and no traffic is present, he then notifies the nearest crew to either stop or proceed at restricted speed looking out for obstructions, broken rail or train ahead and report what they find.
I would say that this tram scenario had remote control switches but no way of electronically monitoring switch position and traffic location.

Hey, the he's only a kid! At least give him a challenge he might succeed.

have him create an urban legend about him doing so to advance the cause of fascism in Italy?

paying the medical bills for those injured

American savage! Poland has universal health care :p

Hire him as a security consultant for the no doubt impending upgrades to the rail system and pay him a pittance.

:D

have him create an urban legend about him doing so to advance the cause of fascism in Italy?

Now this will work.

An outlet for his intelligence will keep him from such criminal behaviour. And he should obviously be punished for what he did, but that's no reason to ignore his apparent intelligence and knack for signals and electronics.
Unfounded speculation. Let him demonstrate that he has the discipline to handle higher education, first. I'm not sure I'd ever want to advise a 'tinkerer' in an academic setting, although I'd hire one in an instant.

Unfounded speculation. Let him demonstrate that he has the discipline to handle higher education, first. I'm not sure I'd ever want to advise a 'tinkerer' in an academic setting, although I'd hire one in an instant.

but what about the college pranks!?

but what about the college pranks!?
Completely different. Pranks are pulled by folks that have already demonstrated the ability to learn. A tinkerer is a great guy to have when you need a problem solved, but not generally the one that's going to add to the body of academic knowledge.

That's why I said I'd hire him in an instant. At work, I want problems solved, not turned into science projects.

American savage! Poland has universal health care :p

Yes, and so that promotes the idea of his personal responsibility for injuring those people HOW?

Honestly, most people here want to pat him on the back and say good job for putting people's lives at risk and hurting them just because he's clever. He SHOULD have to pay for their injuries -- or better yet, do their yardwork/chores until they're better to make restitution to them.

Yes, and so that promotes the idea of his personal responsibility for injuring those people HOW?

Honestly, most people here want to pat him on the back and say good job for putting people's lives at risk and hurting them just because he's clever. He SHOULD have to pay for their injuries -- or better yet, do their yardwork/chores until they're better to make restitution to them.

Well it comes from the mindset of if someone does something bad punish them, if someone does something really impressively bad and shocking pat them on the back and say well done, because some people like a show, even if it's a nasty thing to do it gives them something to think about other than the routines of their life.
P1) The media as a whole is trustworthy in every respect
P2) They show really cool films and interesting facts
P3) If someone is shown in the media they are a good person having achieved fame
C) Everyone who gains lots of media attention is a Good person

(note the P1,P2,P3,C are in jest a sarcastic way of pointing out a poor argument) honest!

Well it comes from the mindset of if someone does something bad punish them, if someone does something really impressively bad and shocking pat them on the back and say well done, because some people like a show, even if it's a nasty thing to do it gives them something to think about other than the routines of their life.
P1) The media as a whole is trustworthy in every respect
P2) They show really cool films and interesting facts
P3) If someone is shown in the media they are a good person having achieved fame
C) Everyone who gains lots of media attention is a Good person

It's hogwash. If you're a menace who hurts people for kicks, a reward is not the answer. A reward conditions people to continue the behavior.

As for C) (shouldn't that be P4, since you didn't use A), B), C)...) two words:

Britney Spears.

Yeah, THERE'S a good person.

Completely different. Pranks are pulled by folks that have already demonstrated the ability to learn. A tinkerer is a great guy to have when you need a problem solved, but not generally the one that's going to add to the body of academic knowledge.

I'm confused with this, are you suggesting the kid has autism or something?

Yes, and so that promotes the idea of his personal responsibility for injuring those people HOW?

I'm pointing out that he wouldn't pay their medical bills nor should he because thats not actually how compensation works in universal

personal injury claims would be what the victims would receive and that would come from the Polish government seeing as how the injuries are from negligence

the kid would be charged with the Polish equivalent of criminal damage if anything what with him being 14 (though it looks like intent to harm wasn't the case), sadly we don't live in the world under Weregild anymore

Honestly, most people here want to pat him on the back and say good job for putting people's lives at risk and hurting them just because he's clever. He SHOULD have to pay for their injuries -- or better yet, do their yardwork/chores until they're better to make restitution to them.

pfft hes 14 and considered by his teachers "as an electronics buff and exemplary student" sadly I wouldn't say there is any indication he went out to kill or hurt anyone but hey lets punish the kid for being curious its much easier than lets say blaming it on horrific security

It's hogwash. If you're a menace who hurts people for kicks, a reward is not the answer. A reward conditions people to continue the behavior.

As for C) (shouldn't that be P4, since you didn't use A), B), C)...) two words:

Britney Spears.

Yeah, THERE'S a good person.

Well..P.. stands for premise, ..C.. Stands for conclusion, it's just a shorthand way of writing it(yeah i wouldn't have known that either, it's what my philosophy teacher uses, it's good for breaking down arguments into what they're actually trying to say, e.g. hidden premises in a statement etc).

[Britney Spears, hmm i detect a hint of cynicism(am i right?) But she sings so many songs how can she be bad? despite her critics she pulls through, even through rehab.]

read=[] as tongue in cheek humour.

pfft hes 14 and considered by his teachers "as an electronics buff and exemplary student" sadly I wouldn't say there is any indication he went out to kill or hurt anyone but hey lets punish the kid for being curious its much easier than lets say blaming it on horrific security

And this exemplary students didn't think running full size trams off a track would hurt the people in it?

And he has NO RESPONSIBILITY for this, it's the "horrific security"?

Is it any wonder no one feels they need to be responsible for anything these days?

Britney Spears, hmm i detect a hint of cynicism(am i right?) But she sings so many songs how can she be bad? despite her critics she pulls through, even through rehab.

Hmm, let's think of other famous people.

Jack the Ripper.
John Wayne Gacy.
Joey Buttafuoco.
Amy Fisher.

Were they good people, just because the media paid a lot of attention to them?

As for her singing songs: so what? She's a very ill young lady who lost her kids because she neglected them and has put them into dangerous situations. What does her ability to sing (which, by the way, has been impaired by her illness) have to do with her being 'good'?

Popular/Rich does not equal good.

Hmm, let's think of other famous people.

Jack the Ripper.
John Wayne Gacy.
Joey Buttafuoco.
Amy Fisher.

Were they good people, just because the media paid a lot of attention to them?

Well, my post about the media was in jest, i suppose i didn't write it out very well, i was actually joking about Britney Spears being a 'good' person. (don't attack me verbally, i'm on your side!) i apologise if my posts cause confusion, i sometimes assume other people know what i know, which is wrong.