NationStates Jolt Archive

http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/0,1518,527544,00.html
Sarkozy To Axe France 24

French President Nicolas Sarkozy has announced that the English-language news network France 24 is to be axed. The channel, which was set up to provide a French perspective on world events, will be replaced by a purely French-language network.

French President Nicolas Sarkozy has announced the killing off of the English-language news channel France 24, barely a year after it first hit the airwaves.

The president announced on Tuesday that it would be replaced by a new, purely French-speaking network, France Monde. The new creation is to be a combination of French-speaking broadcaster TV5, Radio France Internationale and France 24, and is expected to be set up at some point later this year. According to Sarkozy, it should be no problem to include subtitles in English, Spanish and Arabic, to present a "French vision."

The announcement sounded the death knoll for the pet project of his predecessor Jacques Chirac. France 24 was launched in December 2006 and broadcasts around the world in French, English and Arabic. The aim of the 24-hour news channel had been to offer a French alternative to global news channels like BBC World and CNN.

However, on Tuesday, Sarkozy said he was not comfortable with a French channel that broadcast in other languages. "With taxpayers' money, I am not prepared to broadcast a channel that does not speak French," Sarkozy told a press conference.

The main journalists union, the SNJ-CGT, reacted with fury to Sarkozy's announcement that his government would stop funding France 24's foreign language programming. The union's secretary general, Jean-Francois Tealdi, told Agence France Presse that the president was "confusing the mission of France 24 and RFI, which was to cover world events with a different vision from that of the Anglo-Saxon approach, and the mission of TV5 Monde, which is to provide a space for the French-speaking world."

An English-speaking member of the France 24 staff told AFP that "everyone is sad and shocked" by the news. The journalist said that if the English and Arabic speaking service disappeared, it would "give France an image of being behind the times."

That's just stupid. What is it with the French government being afraid of the English language all the time?

Sarkozy is such a Gaulist.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/0,1518,527544,00.html


That's just stupid. What is it with the French government being afraid of the English language all the time?

What a cold-hearted bastard. I considered France 24 to be one of the most trustworthy news sources. Now I won't be able to understand a word from the new network. :headbang:

They've been taking lessons from Quebec.

They've been taking lessons from Quebec.

What do you mean?

What do you mean?

Quebec has strict French language laws that make France look like a beacon of freedom. Of course, I was also being a jackass. :)

Learn French, then.

Non! Je refuse!

What a cold-hearted bastard. I considered France 24 to be one of the most trustworthy news sources. Now I won't be able to understand a word from the new network. :headbang:

Learn French, then.

Learn French, then.

Marie Fassinette says - Let them eat cake

No one kills Jacques Bauer!

Marie Fassinette says - Let them eat cake
Actually that's a myth.

Marie Fassinette says - Let them eat cake

She never said that, but I say: let them get educated instead of bitching pointlessly about their ignorance and demanding that it be accommodated.

She never said that, but I say: let them get educated instead of bitching pointlessly about their ignorance and demanding that it be accommodated.
It's not about that, it's about the fear of the English language somehow making French any less important destroying a service which had the goal of reaching non-French speakers with a French perspective on things.

She never said that, but I say: let them get educated instead of bitching pointlessly about their ignorance and demanding that it be accommodated.

I think ignorance could be also arrogance at times.

Marie Fassinette says - Let them eat cake

Hehe, I caught the not so subtle joke. ;)

Actually that's a myth.

That's right, she never actually said that, although it probably wouldn't have surprised people if she had.

I'm dissappointed, but I wouldn't mind reading subtitles while listening to French.

What stations carry the channel?

She never said that, but I say: let them get educated instead of bitching pointlessly about their ignorance and demanding that it be accommodated.

The simple nerve of a country to create a TV channel in a non-national language!

Learn French, then.

I plan on it at some point regardless of the reason, since it's one of the most useful languages on the planet, along with Spanish, Mandarin, and whatever the most spoken language in India is. (EDIT: English and Hindi.)

But it's not that easy(especially not for me, since I have a difficult time learning any language) and in the meantime I won't be able to enjoy the news from one of the sources I regularly visit.

And in any event, the main reason for my complaint was not that service was being denied me, but because there's no reason to do it other than some form of xenophobia.

BTW It was supposedly Marie Antoinette not Marie Fassinette who said that.

BTW It was supposedly Marie Antoinette not Marie Fassinette who said that.

It was a joke actually, as you might see now.

Just like French Air Traffic controllers.

The universal language is English...But French Controllers speak french to french pilots...so the rest of us are in the dark about their movements....

.....And on the 7th day, God created the french.....just to piss off the Americans!!! :sniper:

It's not about that, it's about the fear of the English language somehow making French any less important

Épouvantail.

destroying a service which had the goal of reaching non-French speakers with a French perspective on things.

Sous-titrage.

The simple nerve of a country to create a TV channel in a non-national language!

The simple nerve of a country not to want to accommodate you.

The simple nerve of a country not to want to accommodate you.

If america did that to a spanish station you would be the first on here to pitch a fit about it. This guy is a nationalist jackoff no other way around it. One non-french station won't kill french...a nation where 95% + speak it.

Er, yeah. What is France, a European US?

The US accommodates everybody to a fault, france is well....france.

Marie Fassinette says - Let them eat cakeFree brown bread for all.

I plan on it at some point regardless of the reason, since it's one of the most useful languages on the planet, along with Spanish, Mandarin, and whatever the most spoken language in India is. (EDIT: English and Hindi.)

Get going, then. Allez-y!

But it's not that easy(especially not for me, since I have a difficult time learning any language) and in the meantime I won't be able to enjoy the news from one of the sources I regularly visit.

Listen to French instead of English. That's how you learn it.

And in any event, the main reason for my complaint was not that service was being denied me, but because there's no reason to do it other than some form of xenophobia.

This isn't xenophobia. Sure, you'd like to feel somehow disadvantaged, I understand that - it's so chic to have a self-imposed cross to bear these days among people who have nothing to bitch about, almost a bit BCBG.

The simple nerve of a country not to want to accommodate you.

Er, yeah. What is France, a European US?

P.S. I also resent the usage of 'you' above.

Get going, then. Allez-y!

Just as soon as I find my licensed copy of the Rosetta Stone software.


Listen to French instead of English. That's how you learn it.

Definitely. I manged to learn some Japanese while watching dubbed animes. Hardly the best source, of course(not even remotely close, in fact) but it gave me at least some of the effect of immersion.

Problem is, I'm not sure how I'd immerse myself in French. Any suggestions?


This isn't xenophobia. Sure, you'd like to feel somehow disadvantaged, I understand that - it's so chic to have a self-imposed cross to bear these days among people who have nothing to bitch about, almost a bit BCBG.

It's not? Why else would Sarkozy want to axe it, then? He flat out said he wants to cancel the network because he wasn't comfortable with any channel broadcasting in another language that was paid for by taxes. Considering it's an extremely valuable investment, what else could it be BUT some form of xenophobia?

Hehe, I caught the not so subtle joke. ;)

:)

It's like the Pope saying all Catholic marketing needs to be in Latin and then complaining that he's getting no converts to his world view.

This is slightly valid as a comparison - the difference between Anglo-Saxon and the Romance world view is the difference between the Puritan and Catholic world view - they're historically entwined.

If america did that to a spanish station you would be the first on here to pitch a fit about it.

Of course, since Spanish is the USA's second language and spoken by a sizeable (and growing) 30-40-50 million-sized (I forget the exact estimate) minority. I fully support recognition of minority languages. English in France is not one. In that respect, it's sad to see the Arabic version of France 24 go, but I should hope there are other venues for it on national television.

This guy is a nationalist jackoff no other way around it.

Your mislabels (in respect to this), they disinterest me.

Learn French, then.
I choose option C: Bite my shiny metal ass.

Er, yeah. What is France, a European US?

What a mean and insulting thing to say.

P.S. I also resent the usage of 'you' above.

It is not my fault the English language lacks a distinct impersonal/indeterminate pronoun in the objective, nor is it my fault that you have a hard time distinguishing the "you" used for such and the "you" used as a personal pronoun.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/0,1518,527544,00.html


That's just stupid. What is it with the French government being afraid of the English language all the time?

This is what people get for voting in politicians that Dubya approves of.

It is not my fault the English language lacks a distinct impersonal/indeterminate pronoun in the objective, nor is it my fault that you have a hard time distinguishing the "you" used for such and the "you" used as a personal pronoun.

Sometimes not using a pronoun is the preferred option.

What a mean and insulting thing to say.



It is not my fault the English language lacks a distinct impersonal/indeterminate pronoun in the objective, nor is it my fault that you have a hard time distinguishing the "you" used for such and the "you" used as a personal pronoun.

Yes. One ought never take umbrage at ambiguous remarks. At least not for reasons other than their ambiguity.

Just as soon as I find my licensed copy of the Rosetta Stone software.

Excuses, excuses.

Problem is, I'm not sure how I'd immerse myself in French. Any suggestions?

If you have satellite/cable channels, they often broadcast in different "soundtracks" that you can choose between - for instance Euronews (http://www.euronews.net/) (which you can use to somewhat supplant France 24, I suppose.) Switch them from English to French.

There are probably sizeable Francophone communities in most larger USA towns. Get involved with them.

Québec is not that far away. See if you can visit to start with. I am sure that there are scholarships to apply to for immersion courses over there. And so on.

It's not? Why else would Sarkozy want to axe it, then? He flat out said he wants to cancel the network because he wasn't comfortable with any channel broadcasting in another language that was paid for by taxes.

You ask your question and then supply the answer. He doesn't want to spend money on an English-speaking channel. That's not xenophobia.

Considering it's an extremely valuable investment, what else could it be BUT some form of xenophobia?

Valuable to whom? I very much doubt France 24's pro-French propaganda was that effective, but seeing you pine for it makes me wonder.

You ask your question and then supply the answer. He doesn't want to spend money on an English-speaking channel. That's not xenophobia.
You might want to explain how that isn't xenophobia.

I choose option C: Bite my shiny metal ass.

Nice one Bender.

Sometimes not using a pronoun is the preferred option.

And sometimes grammar is valued.

Yes. One ought never take umbrage at ambiguous remarks. At least not for reasons other than their ambiguity.

One always has the opportunity to ask for clarification before one gets one's knickers lodged too far 'twixt one's cheeks.

I needn't explain the apparent, especially as it's stated by himself.
So you are pulling it out of your ass?

PS. Apparently I am traveling back through time today, you'll never beat me!

You might want to explain how that isn't xenophobia.

I needn't explain the apparent, especially as it's stated by himself.

Excuses, excuses.

I'm serious, actually. I've got a copy around here somewhere that I need to find.


If you have satellite/cable channels, they often broadcast in different "soundtracks" that you can choose between - for instance Euronews (http://www.euronews.net/) (which you can use to somewhat supplant France 24, I suppose.) Switch them from English to French.

There are probably sizeable Francophone communities in most larger USA towns. Get involved with them.

Québec is not that far away. See if you can visit to start with. I am sure that there are scholarships to apply to for immersion courses over there. And so on.
Nice suggestions all. Thank you.


You ask your question and then supply the answer. He doesn't want to spend money on an English-speaking channel. That's not xenophobia.

The question, Fass, is why he doesn't want to spend money on an English-speaking channel.


Valuable to whom? I very much doubt France 24's pro-French propaganda was that effective, but seeing you pine for it makes me wonder.
My pining away, as it were, is more due to the fact that I considered it reliable and I hate seeing something reliable be tossed away for no good reason.

Damn French, nothing but a group of whiny cheese eating nazi supporters.

I say we invade them, with, say, a single tank. That should scare them into surrendering.

/satire

One always has the opportunity to ask for clarification before one gets one's knickers lodged too far 'twixt one's cheeks.

Alright then, Fass, clarify. To whom, specifically, did your statement refer? Anyone who can't speak French? The government refuses to accommodate based on language?
How, exactly, is that not nationalistic?

I'm serious, actually. I've got a copy around here somewhere that I need to find.

Sure.

Nice suggestions all. Thank you.

De rien.

The question, Fass, is why he doesn't want to spend money on an English-speaking channel.

And the question is why you jump to a certain conclusion, hence my cross-bearing comment.


My pining away, as it were, is more due to the fact that I considered it reliable and I hate seeing something reliable be tossed away for no good reason.

Kyronea, je vous présente la vie. (Psst! To that one answers: "enchanté(e)".)

Alright then, Fass, clarify. To whom, specifically, did your statement refer?

If my statement referred to someone specifically, it would not have been a usage of "you" as an indefinite pronoun.

Je déteste quand quelqu’un parle en Français. Il devient nécessaire de penser en Français, et alors, je ne peux pas changer entre le deux.

Aussi, le Français de Québec est plus difficile que le Français de France. Les Québécois disent les mots différent que les Français, comme « quatre », « cinq », ou « marche ». La différence m’a confondu pendant le camp d’escrime avec les Canadiens Français.

If my statement referred to someone specifically, it would not have been a usage of "you" as an indefinite pronoun.

:rolleyes:
To which person or group of people, specifically.
And the winner of the NMS 'being deliberately obtuse' award is…'

:rolleyes:
To which person or group of people, specifically.
And the winner of the NMS 'being deliberately obtuse' award is…'

You. Indefinite.

And the question is why you jump to a certain conclusion, hence my cross-bearing comment.
You're right. I shouldn't jump to the conclusion so readily.

HOWEVER

I am not doing so without some basis. Sarkozy is quite the right-winger, and in general when someone of his political persuasion says they are not comfortable with spending money on something that does not involve the majority ethnic group or what have you, that someone is acting in a xenophobic manner.

Still, you're right that I shouldn't leap to the conclusion.

Of course, since Spanish is the USA's second language and spoken by a sizeable (and growing) 30-40-50 million-sized (I forget the exact estimate) minority. I fully support recognition of minority languages. English in France is not one. In that respect, it's sad to see the Arabic version of France 24 go, but I should hope there are other venues for it on national television.

OK, you've got me confused here: are you saying that the US should accommodate non-English speakers, but nobody should have to accommodate people who only speak English? If so, why the bias against English?

I disagree, because if the US should have non-English channels, then it's only just, fair, and balanced to expect other countries to accommodate English-speakers. I say that if we are morally obligated to accommodate Spanish-speakers here in the US, then Sarkozy was also wrong in getting rid of the English France 24.

EDIT: Also, if other countries are not expected to accommodate English speakers, then the USA should not have to accommodate their languages either.

What I'm trying to say is "Get rid of the double standard". It's wrong that English-speaking countries be told to accommodate other languages without it also being the other way around.

:rolleyes:
To which person or group of people, specifically.
And the winner of the NMS 'being deliberately obtuse' award is…'

Fass has said why he used 'you' - it was not aimed at yourself - it applies to anyone who takes umbrage at a country for not catering to their dedicated needs.

Why not drop it and get back to the subject at hand?

If there are still English subtitles, I don't see what the problem is. People can READ after all. Sure, that is probably not the best reasoning for getting rid of the network, but Sarkozy's not doing anything truly horrific.

English is inevitable.

Fass vous etes dans un coucour pour voir qui va pisser le plus loin possible? :p

OK, you've got me confused here: are you saying that the US should accommodate non-English speakers, but nobody should have to accommodate people who only speak English? If so, why the bias against English?

I disagree, because if the US should have non-English channels, then it's only just, fair, and balanced to expect other countries to accommodate English-speakers. I say that if we are morally obligated to accommodate Spanish-speakers here in the US, then Sarkozy was also wrong in getting rid of the English France 24.

EDIT: Also, if other countries are not expected to accommodate English speakers, then the USA should not have to accommodate them either.

What I'm trying to say is "Get rid of the double standard". It's wrong that English-speaking countries be told to accommodate other languages without it also being the other way around.

No, you're missing his point. His point is that Spanish speakers represent a significant portion of our population, while English speakers do not represent a significant portion of the population of France.

Aussi, le Français de Québec est plus difficile que le Français de France. Les Québécois disent les mots différent que les Français, comme « quatre », « cinq », ou « marche ». La différence m’a confondu pendant le camp d’escrime avec les Canadiens Français.

C'est beautiful ça, non?

OK, you've got me confused here: are you saying that the US should accommodate non-English speakers, but nobody should have to accommodate people who only speak English? If so, why the bias against English?

I disagree, because if the US should have non-English channels, then it's only just, fair, and balanced to expect other countries to accommodate English-speakers. I say that if we are morally obligated to accommodate Spanish-speakers here in the US, then Sarkozy was also wrong in getting rid of the English France 24.

The case is different: a larger percentage of Spanish speakers live in the US than English speakers in France.

Fass has said why he used 'you' - it was not aimed at yourself - it applies to anyone who takes umbrage at a country for not catering to their dedicated needs.

Why not drop it and get back to the subject at hand?

Thank you for the news update.

The government refuses to accommodate based on language?
How, exactly, is that not nationalistic?

:rolleyes:
To which person or group of people, specifically.

Indefinite. Look it up.

C'est beautiful ça, non?

Pas ton grammaire.

Pas ton grammaire.

C'est assez Québecois. ;)

Aussi, le Français de Québec est plus difficile que le Français de France. Les Québécois disent les mots différent que les Français, comme « quatre », « cinq », ou « marche ». La différence m’a confondu pendant le camp d’escrime avec les Canadiens Français.

Je ne dirais pas que leur prononciation soit difficile, mais plutôt mignonne. Je l'aime bien et voudrais savoir l'imiter, mais comme on est européen...

Fass vous etes dans un coucour pour voir qui va pisser le plus loin possible? :p

Sans doute un concours que je perdrais, parce que je pisse assis. Je suis paresseux comme ca.

Sans doute un concours que je perdrais, parce que je pisse assis. Je suis paresseux comme ca.

lol :D

Épouvantail.
It's not, because this is quite clearly the policy of various French culture ministries. It's not that much of a leap to see the connection to Sarkozy "not feeling comfortable" with a French English-speaking channel.

Sous-titrage.
But why would you make it harder for your target audience to watch? France 24 was like Al Jazeera - meant to give "outsiders" a different perspective of the news. That goal is certainly not served by making them read subtitles.

OK, you've got me confused here: are you saying that the US should accommodate non-English speakers, but nobody should have to accommodate people who only speak English? If so, why the bias against English?

No, that's not what I am saying. I said that one should accommodate national linguistic minorities. English-speakers are not one such in France. Spanish-speakers are one such in the USA. No matter, Spanish will grow large enough in the USA in due time for it to hardly even be a minority language, but more a second one.

Je ne dirais pas que leur prononciation soit difficile, mais plutôt mignonne. Je l'aime bien et voudrais savoir l'imiter, mais comme on est européen...

Ah, oui. Je crois que je n’ai pas voulu utiliser le mot « difficile », mais à cause de mon pauvre vocabulaire et grammaire, je n’ai pas pu dire exactement que j’aurais voulu. Le longue est différent, et si vous savez un accent, un accent différent peut vous confondre.

French is one of the butt-fugliest languages in the world.

Only dutch is absolutely worse.

English comes close though...but I've gotten used to its horribly illogical phonetics.

French is one of the butt-fugliest languages in the world.

Only dutch is absolutely worse.

English comes close though...but I've gotten used to its horribly illogical phonetics.
You officially have no sense of taste. French is an absolutely beautiful language.

Learn French, then.

Just like the Mexican's in the U.S should learn English.

Just like the Mexican's in the U.S should learn English.

Actually, no. It's a completely different situation.

You officially have no sense of taste. French is an absolutely beautiful language.

It might be if it was written in any way resembling the sound of the language :p

Structurally it's also abysmal with, for example, the ne...pas dual negation or the est-ce que thing.

It's also too f'in nasal to my liking.

By far the worst thing is that the French speakers regard French language as superior as is shown by this thread.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/0,1518,527544,00.html


That's just stupid. What is it with the French government being afraid of the English language all the time?

Yay government sponsored television! :D

Of course, since Spanish is the USA's second language and spoken by a sizeable (and growing) 30-40-50 million-sized (I forget the exact estimate) minority. I fully support recognition of minority languages. English in France is not one. In that respect, it's sad to see the Arabic version of France 24 go, but I should hope there are other venues for it on national television.

Wrong, their are not 50 million spanish speakers here and if you had bothered to look at the US Census you would have known that 91.3% of american speak english very well. And minority means less than 50%, you know not the majority, and that would include English in France which is spoken. So you are very wrong here.

Actually, no. It's a completely different situation.

How is it different?

How is it different?

The United States has no official language(nor should it ever) and Spanish is widely spoken in many parts of the country, more than easily enough for any immigrants who speak Spanish to get by. English will help, but it is not a requirement either for actual immigration or to live daily lives. In other words, in order to do what they want to do, they do not need it.

I, however, would need French in order to do what I would want to do in this case. There is no workaround solution, and as such Fass's suggestion, while impolitely worded, is ultimately the best course of action.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/0,1518,527544,00.html


That's just stupid. What is it with the French government being afraid of the English language all the time?


Fuck knows. The idea was to get French views out to the English speaking world, not piss on the French language. It was actually a good idea and a decent, quality channel. Sarko has underlined my impression of him as a prick, and a short sighted one at that.

and what if I can't read! :p

Just as soon as I find my licensed copy of the Rosetta Stone software.

back from a time when it was cheaper than just taking lessons?

edit: timewarps honest

and what if I can't read! :p

Then you would be unable to participate on this forum. As you and I have discussed various matters on several occasions, it is clear your ability to read is not in question.

back from a time when it was cheaper than just taking lessons?

edit: timewarps honest

Yeah. Not perfect, but it'll do. It'll do.

Then you would be unable to participate on this forum. As you and I have discussed various matters on several occasions, it is clear your ability to read is not in question.

*holds eyes in an "I can't hear you" way* (http://www.hagger.co.uk/froogle_item.asp?categoryid=107&itemid=761)

...doesn't a site selling products for the visually impaired have some logic issues?

Yeah. Not perfect, but it'll do. It'll do.

I wonder if you will sound like a French robot :confused:

*holds eyes in an "I can't hear you" way* (http://www.hagger.co.uk/froogle_item.asp?categoryid=107&itemid=761)

...doesn't a site selling products for the visually impaired have some logic issues?

Perhaps if one assumed the only ones purchasing their products were those directly disabled, yes, but I would presume that relations would be willing to purchase products as well, and as a website makes such purchasing easier, it's sensible, just like television commercials for hearing aids.

I wonder if you will sound like a French robot :confused:

Who says I'm not a French robot?

The United States has no official language(nor should it ever) and Spanish is widely spoken in many parts of the country, more than easily enough for any immigrants who speak Spanish to get by. English will help, but it is not a requirement either for actual immigration or to live daily lives. In other words, in order to do what they want to do, they do not need it.

Wrong as always, The US should have an official language and the fact you say immigrants don't need english to live even with the fact most say it is a road block, well that shows you have a dangerous lack of knowledge about this country and how to live here. Maybe you should get off the far left websites and get a reality check and see how low their standards of living are, go see how much their average income is compared to english speakers. They need it and I am glad that you are not in the majority nor should you ever be! This is proven by the 30 states WITH English language laws on the books, this includes California where bilingual education is being dumped infavor of english immersion and ALL the major canidates, Obama, Clinton. Guliani, Huckabee, Romney, even Edwards all support immigrants learning english. I strongly suggest you get some better understanding of this.

[url]That's just stupid. What is it with the French government being afraid of the English language all the time?

Why should the leading country of the Francophonie finance an english-speaking tv channel? That was just stupid. I don't see BBC World broadcasting in french, or german, or italian, just to mention the most spoken languages of western Europe, you know.
Flattening the world of news on english only leads to losing the treasure of cultural difference.

Fuck knows. The idea was to get French views out to the English speaking world, not piss on the French language.

Well the english speaking world could also do as the rest of the world does, and learn at least one bloody foreign language. Monoglots, bleah!

Why should the leading country of the Francophonie finance an english-speaking tv channel? That was just stupid. I don't see BBC World broadcasting in french, or german, or italian, just to mention the most spoken languages of western Europe, you know.
Flattening the world of news on english only leads to losing the treasure of cultural difference.

Or maybe the english channel was an attempt to reach out to 309 to 380 english speakers out there. Could be. Not everybody speaks french you know.

Wrong as always,

I find this hard to believe, but do please go on.
The US should have an official language

Why? It serves no purpose and would in fact worsen the situation of millions of people who live in our country due to the new requirements forced upon various institutions, especially hospitals.
and the fact you say immigrants don't need english to live even with the fact most say it is a road block, well that shows you have a dangerous lack of knowledge about this country and how to live here.
Really? I happened to live in southern California for several years, and I can tell you that quite easily there are entire communities, indeed entire city districts that are entirely Spanish. Despite my pasty Irish-white skin, I was in fact a minority at the schools I attended(I was even met with a bit of racism, sadly) and found myself disadvantaged because I did not know Spanish.
Maybe you should get off the far left websites and get a reality check
Perhaps I should say you should get off of far-right winged websites.
and see how low their standards of living are, go see how much their average income is compared to english speakers. They need it and I am glad that you are not in the majority nor should you ever be!
Has it occurred to you, sir, that the reason their incomes are so low is more due to exploitation on the part of majorities, corporations, and what have you as well as the xenophobia exhibited by people such as yourself? You would require them to give up something essential to their life to suit your own purposes.
This is proven by the 30 states WITH English language laws on the books, this includes California where bilingual education is being dumped infavor of english immersion and ALL the major canidates, Obama, Clinton. Guliani, Huckabee, Romney, even Edwards all support immigrants learning english. I strongly suggest you get some better understanding of this.

Frankly, I do agree that English would be a solid language to learn for immigrants, so please do not misunderstand me. My point is that they do not require it in order to live in this nation nor should they. We can most certainly be bilingual if we choose. Just as English is good for them, Spanish is good for us.

Furthermore, those English language laws make things worse, not better. You have to understand the situation of most immigrants these days. They emigrate from Mexico for the sake of better jobs, a better life, better education. They don't have anywhere near the kind of access to foreign language education we do. Most come from rural communities where the closest thing to a school is a church. It is very difficult for them to get their hands on the sort of materials they would need to learn the language, and the insistence people who would implement your policies have on learning English and abandoning Spanish only worsen the situation.

What we should really be doing is aiding Mexico. We should help them boost their economy in some fashion...someone else who posts here suggested that we subsidize corporations to provide various jobs with fair wages, which might be a good start. Education too is a high priority. Either way, we should work much more closely with Mexico's government in improving the situation.

Well the english speaking world could also do as the rest of the world does, and learn at least one bloody foreign language. Monoglots, bleah!


Just to get news from a french channel? Bleah. And I'd bet most do speak more than 1.

Well the english speaking world could also do as the rest of the world does, and learn at least one bloody foreign language. Monoglots, bleah!

I agree. There should be various language version of the BBC much like France 24 and Al-Jazeera broadcast in English. The benefits to the various nations in being able to learn how cultures view the world are enormous and extremely valuable.

I think any country has the right to take action to try and preserve their cultural and national identity.

Odd, but oh well.

Now if only we could cut those damn Spanish channels...

Just to get news from a french channel? Bleah.

Well, if you want to get news in english language only, or from an english-based broadcasting corp, why should you listen to an english-speaking french channel anyway?
I prefer to get my english news from England and my french news from France, not the other way around (btw I hate when BBC World features people speaking english with indian or pakistani accent - I already have some problems understanding the cockneys and the yankees!)

And I'd bet most do speak more than 1.

In a world dominated by english language? I don't think so... remember that:
1.a wide knowledge of a foreign language is triggered by need (trade, mostly), not by cultural curiosity - and since the world's koinè of trade is english...
2.the average cultural level of NSG is quite higher than the average cultural level of the respective countries. I, for one, speak decently 3 foreign languages and reach a bare-survival level in other 4, but this is quite uncommon here.

Why? It serves no purpose and would in fact worsen the situation of millions of people who live in our country due to the new requirements forced upon various institutions, especially hospitals.

Wrong, in fact most people who don't know english make under 20k a year and what about the people who don't speak spanish or english? What about russin and italian and japanese.

Really? I happened to live in southern California for several years, and I can tell you that quite easily there are entire communities, indeed entire city districts that are entirely Spanish. Despite my pasty Irish-white skin, I was in fact a minority at the schools I attended(I was even met with a bit of racism, sadly) and found myself disadvantaged because I did not know Spanish.


I have lived in Socal for 25 years not that far from the border, I can assure you that has never happened to me and in fact english has been the official language of this state reaffirmed 22 years ago.

Perhaps I should say you should get off of far-right winged websites.


:rolleyes: Too bad for you I don't go to any.

Has it occurred to you, sir, that the reason their incomes are so low is more due to exploitation on the part of majorities, corporations, and what have you as well as the xenophobia exhibited by people such as yourself? You would require them to give up something essential to their life to suit your own purposes.


So now I am a xenophobe because I support english? You fail so hard there it's not even funny. Has it occured to you that the reason they have such low income is because they don't know english and not this so called racism you claim? Nobody said they couldn't speak spanish and had to give it up, just that they should learn english. You fail.


Frankly, I do agree that English would be a solid language to learn for immigrants, so please do not misunderstand me. My point is that they do not require it in order to live in this nation nor should they. We can most certainly be bilingual if we choose. Just as English is good for them, Spanish is good for us.


I can get along fine without spanish thank you, and if you had a clue you would know there are at min 300 languages spoken everyday in america, whatabout the other 298? Or do you look down on them?

Furthermore, those English language laws make things worse, not better.

No they don't. In fact not having them makes things worse, unless the other 298 language mean nothing to you.

You have to understand the situation of most immigrants these days. They emigrate from Mexico for the sake of better jobs, a better life, better education.

And learning english in a mostly english speaking nation helps them get that.

They don't have anywhere near the kind of access to foreign language education we do.

Thats why they get it here and millions have stated they try to learn english before they come here. Some have learned english via TV shows.

Most come from rural communities where the closest thing to a school is a church.

Care to prove mexico is that poor?

It is very difficult for them to get their hands on the sort of materials they would need to learn the language, and the insistence people who would implement your policies have on learning English and abandoning Spanish only worsen the situation.


So they can't watch TV or listen to a song? Thats how I picked up some japanese, not from a fancy school but TV shows. I have a feeling you think hispanics are stupid and can't learn english. If anything helping them learn english helps them not hurts them, your policies harm them and america in general.

What we should really be doing is aiding Mexico.

We already do.

We should help them boost their economy in some fashion...someone else who posts here suggested that we subsidize corporations to provide various jobs with fair wages, which might be a good start. Education too is a high priority. Either way, we should work much more closely with Mexico's government in improving the situation.


Why should our corporation provide jobs to mexico? It is not our job to fix their mess, that is their job. This nation has tried countless time to help them with things like NAFTA, only to have them screw it up. It is time for them to step up and make an effort to fix their own shit, they don't need us to do it for them. Mexico's government is very corrupt and until that is fixed no amount of aid we give would help them. That is a reality that mexico is corrupt and they need to fix that as we can't fix them if they don't want to be fixed and meet us half way. I still think you are a racist that thinks hispanics are morons and need whiteys help to bring them to a civil world. I know for a fact they are not morons and capable of anything you are and more. Thru out my life right thru college I have been around hispanics and all spoke english and were very capable intelligent people.

I agree. There should be various language version of the BBC much like France 24 and Al-Jazeera broadcast in English. The benefits to the various nations in being able to learn how cultures view the world are enormous and extremely valuable.

Maybe the best model is Euronews (www.euronews.net), it currently broadcasts in english, german, french, italian, portuguese, spanish and russian.

Well, if you want to get news in english language only, or from an english-based broadcasting corp, why should you listen to an english-speaking french channel anyway?
I prefer to get my english news from England and my french news from France, not the other way around (btw I hate when BBC World features people speaking english with indian or pakistani accent - I already have some problems understanding the cockneys and the yankees!)

But none of them give a french view of life in france.



In a world dominated by english language? I don't think so... remember that:
1.a wide knowledge of a foreign language is triggered by need (trade, mostly), not by cultural curiosity - and since the world's koinè of trade is english...
2.the average cultural level of NSG is quite higher than the average cultural level of the respective countries. I, for one, speak decently 3 foreign languages and reach a bare-survival level in other 4, but this is quite uncommon here.


Dominated by english? Not so true anymore, in fact in lots of cases people in the US have to learn a 2nd language just to keep their jobs. Tons of video game companies require such a thing, having to learn japanese as the industry in japan heavy. People need to learn other languages more than you think.

But none of them give a french view of life in france.
If you want to get a view from country X about country X itself, wouldn't it be better to get it in the official language of country X?

Dominated by english? Not so true anymore, in fact in lots of cases people in the US have to learn a 2nd language just to keep their jobs. Tons of video game companies require such a thing, having to learn japanese as the industry in japan heavy. People need to learn other languages more than you think.

...lots? You think that the employees of video game companies (even assuming that ALL of them are required to learn another language, which I'm sure they aren't) are a "lot" when compared with the total population of the USA?
Only people who are in workplaces "above the average" (not just as paycheck, I mean as cultural requirements and international involvement of the company) need to speak another language. I'm thinking of the guy on the streets, mind you - because that's the target of a tv channel.

Well the english speaking world could also do as the rest of the world does, and learn at least one bloody foreign language. Monoglots, bleah!

"could" and indeed "should". But "will"?

If you want to get a view from country X about country X itself, wouldn't it be better to get it in the official language of country X?


How great a difference would that really make? How much does the language itself affect how a perspective is transferred to the viewer?

How great a difference would that really make? How much does the language itself affect how a perspective is transferred to the viewer?

A lot. Really a lot. There are things that cannot be translated perfectly, and those are quite important.
Examples: in russian, the verbal aspect is more important than the verbal tense; in ancient greek, aspect and mood are more important than tense; in italian verbal tense and mood are more important, and aspect is almost ignored.
And jokes. Jokes are quite difficult to translate.

You need to dive into another country's culture if you want to understand - and language is the key to culture.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/0,1518,527544,00.html


That's just stupid. What is it with the French government being afraid of the English language all the time?With taxpayers money, he's unwilling to fund a channel that doesn't broadcast in French. Does this mean he'll axe ARTE as well?

English is the most widely spoken language in the EU (if not the world).

If you want to get your message across effectively you do it in the most common language of the target group.

Quebec has strict French language laws that make France look like a beacon of freedom. Of course, I was also being a jackass. :)
I thought you guys had bilingualism as an official policy.

That's just stupid. What is it with the French government being afraid of the English language all the time?

Meh so what, it's France innit, why should they bother about the English language, they have one of their own.

I think any country has the right to take action to try and preserve their cultural and national identity.
By dictatorial edict of course :rolleyes:

I thought you guys had bilingualism as an official policy.
That's funny because I thought Quebec's policy was wipe English off the face of the planet >_>

I think any country has the right to take action to try and preserve their cultural and national identity.

No doubt. But if you want to promote your culture and identity to others, it does help if you do it in a language they understand...

She never said that, but I say: let them get educated instead of bitching pointlessly about their ignorance and demanding that it be accommodated.

did I ever tell you I love you?

eww......hetero cooties! Run Fass run!

Meh so what, it's France innit, why should they bother about the English language, they have one of their own.
The idea was for them to present the news from a French perspective to a market of English language speakers. I'm not really bothered that France 24 is gone because I never used it, but I wouldn't object to the BBC broadcasting the news from a British perspective in French and other languages (If they don't already).

I can certainly understand why the French want to promote their own language, but I don't see how this helps do that. If you're going to present the news from your perspective to an international audience it makes sense to do it in different languages.

I see no problem with this. It's a French news network; the national language of France is *gasp* French! If someone in France really needs to watch this network, they either A) know how to speak French or B) should be learning.

If I recall correctly, Fass used to make intelligent comments. He just seems like a troll nowadays.

Yes, I know he'll make some dumb sarcastic response to this. I don't care.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/0,1518,527544,00.html


That's just stupid. What is it with the French government being afraid of the English language all the time?
I know this isn't your point, but wouldn't you be opposed to the existance publicly owned media anyway?

I don't see what's objectionable to broadcasting in English and Arabic as well as French. Looks like Sarkozy is just trying to appeal to French nationalists. I mean, how hard would it have been to leave France 24 as is, just cut the English and Arabic broadcast? Why did he need to get rid of it and make France Monde?

Why did he need to get rid of it and make France Monde?

He probably got turned down by one of the newsreaders. Or he's going to use the money to fund a Franco-Italian artistic project......

He lacks class, really.

Of all the stupid things to close a channel over...

This guy is an nationalistic asshole, nothing more.

And now on to Hijack the thread to talk about Languages.
I plan on it at some point regardless of the reason, since it's one of the most useful languages on the planet, along with Spanish, Mandarin, and whatever the most spoken language in India is. (EDIT: English and Hindi.)
Oh just warning you, learning French makes learning Spanish harder and visa-vers. (Since they share the same base it confuses your brain)


Definitely. I manged to learn some Japanese while watching dubbed animes. Hardly the best source, of course(not even remotely close, in fact) but it gave me at least some of the effect of immersion.
You mean subbed right? Dubbed is when they have translated, Sub is when they have subtitles.

I've tried that before also, I once watched a show that went into English halfway through, and I didn't even notice. (Though I still can't understand a thing yet)

I know this isn't your point, but wouldn't you be opposed to the existance publicly owned media anyway?
In principle, yes, but in practice I think it is one of the better ways of spending money. I have found that state-funded TV and radio channels often do a very good job, at least in this country - Triple J and SBS come to mind.

I think it is one of the better ways of spending money. I have found that state-funded TV and radio channels often do a very good job, at least in this country - Triple J and SBS come to mind.
I agree, although I can't really comment on Australian public broadcasting. The BBC does a good job, at least, and also manages to do so in dozens of languages.

Oh just warning you, learning French makes learning Spanish harder and visa-vers. (Since they share the same base it confuses your brain)

I'll keep that in mind.

You mean subbed right? Dubbed is when they have translated, Sub is when they have subtitles.

I've tried that before also, I once watched a show that went into English halfway through, and I didn't even notice. (Though I still can't understand a thing yet)
Err, yes, I meant subbed.

Wrong, in fact most people who don't know english make under 20k a year and what about the people who don't speak spanish or english? What about russin and italian and japanese.

Perhaps we should examine why that is. I suggested that some underlying unspoken xenophobia is part of the problem, and it probably is. Not blatant, mind you, but the sort of assumptions people will tend to make, the sort that result in things like a much larger number of blacks being imprisoned relatives to whites.

Furthermore, I followed the assumption in regards to Mexican immigrants since it seems that's all that people talk about these days when they mean immigrants. Another sign of the sort of hidden xenophobia I speak of.


I have lived in Socal for 25 years not that far from the border, I can assure you that has never happened to me and in fact english has been the official language of this state reaffirmed 22 years ago.

Different areas, different things happen. Frankly I think it's disgusting that one has to assert an official language. Official languages generally tend to exclude anything that doesn't speak that language and deny services to people who don't understand the language.



:rolleyes: Too bad for you I don't go to any.

And I don't go to any far-left websites. We've learned something about assumptions here.


So now I am a xenophobe because I support english? You fail so hard there it's not even funny. Has it occured to you that the reason they have such low income is because they don't know english and not this so called racism you claim? Nobody said they couldn't speak spanish and had to give it up, just that they should learn english. You fail.

As I said before, I'm not talking about outright, blatant racism of the sort that used to be common. I'm talking about the far more insidious kind that lingers and continues to fester everywhere.

Furthermore, I would ask you how exactly you support English. Be careful with saying things like what you just said, because they can be misinterpreted. Oftentimes people who say "I support this" will usually imply "to the exclusion of anything else."


I can get along fine without spanish thank you, and if you had a clue you would know there are at min 300 languages spoken everyday in america, whatabout the other 298? Or do you look down on them?

I don't look down on any language. And where I live in Colorado I can get by with English just fine and dandy too. I didn't say one couldn't. I said Spanish would be useful because it's spoken by many millions of citizens. And as I've said earlier in this thread, I also intend to learn French, Mandarin, and Hindi, which are useful throughout the world, not just in the United States.


No they don't. In fact not having them makes things worse, unless the other 298 language mean nothing to you.

No, they do make things worse. They make things worse by requiring services to only serve in one language. Imagine an immigrant who has just arrived from, say, Mexico, or Uganda, or Greece, or somewhere else where they wouldn't regularly speak English(and possibly not even have a real chance to do so.) Now let's say they poisoned themselves with something by accident, or they have a condition that requires specific medical aid in case they ingest a particular food. And what if they have an allergy to a commonly used treatment for their condition?

Under an official English law, a hospital would not be able to conduct services in the native language of the immigrant, and if they did not understand English, they would not be able to get across what the problem was. Unlike what some people would have you think, you can't mime every little problem with your body. Not even close.

This is just one example of what I mean.


And learning english in a mostly english speaking nation helps them get that.

And how easy is that, really? Usually, such classes cost money, money the immigrants don't have. Would you support government funding to help with English language learning for them?


Thats why they get it here and millions have stated they try to learn english before they come here. Some have learned english via TV shows.

True, they can try, but they won't succeed most of the time. Certainly not well enough to get by.

And even with having to learn the language in the U.S., they have to try to get by without it until they do learn a language. Learning languages is slow even for children. For adults it takes much longer.


Care to prove mexico is that poor?

I apologize for not having a source directly for you. I am drawing from my personal experience in aiding a village approximately one hundred miles south of Mexicali. Still, Mexico is not exactly the richest nation on the planet, and it is rife with corruption and a rich upper class that gladly squats down on the poor--one of the many problems.


So they can't watch TV or listen to a song? Thats how I picked up some japanese, not from a fancy school but TV shows. I have a feeling you think hispanics are stupid and can't learn english. If anything helping them learn english helps them not hurts them, your policies harm them and america in general.

Considering I was talking about learning Japanese from subbed animes in this very thread, I obviously acknowledge that possibility.

But tell me something. How likely is it, do you think, that you could really learn a language effectively from a television show or from a song? It's not. What I picked up was not a considerable handle on the Japanese language, but a few words here and there, and that was only because I subtitles that helped me out. Most television shows and songs aren't going to have those.

And frankly, it's ridiculous they should even have to resort to such an inefficient way of learning a language, and the fact that you suggest they should do it that way instead of suggesting sensible alternatives strikes me as not only naive about the situation, but cold-hearted.


We already do.

Not in the ways I want to see us do.

Why should our corporation provide jobs to mexico? It is not our job to fix their mess, that is their job. This nation has tried countless time to help them with things like NAFTA, only to have them screw it up. It is time for them to step up and make an effort to fix their own shit, they don't need us to do it for them. Mexico's government is very corrupt and until that is fixed no amount of aid we give would help them. That is a reality that mexico is corrupt and they need to fix that as we can't fix them if they don't want to be fixed and meet us half way. I still think you are a racist that thinks hispanics are morons and need whiteys help to bring them to a civil world. I know for a fact they are not morons and capable of anything you are and more. Thru out my life right thru college I have been around hispanics and all spoke english and were very capable intelligent people.

Why? Why?

Because we are directly affected by their problems. Let me make something clear to you: you cannot isolate one nation from another in this world. Like it or not, we are all connected in various ways, and pretending that the problems of one nation does not concern another is ridiculously naive.

Problem is, though, you're right about the corruption in Mexico's government and economy. I brought that up myself so I certainly can't ignore it. But I wasn't putting forth a plan either. I was putting forth a suggestion. How we go about it is what we need to figure out.

And personally, I am very offended that you are accusing me of racism. The fact that Mexico is primary Hispanic and that the United States is primarily Caucasian has absolutely nothing to do with their economic situations. No, I take that back: It does, but only due to prior racism and bigotry on the part of all nations. (ALL nations.)

I want to help Mexico not because I see it as a "White Man's Burden" sort of thing, but because they are fellow human beings, and I help my fellow humans as much as I can. And the simple fact is, they have a situation that needs fixing, and we are able to fix it. Fixing that situation would benefit both Mexico and the United States in an enormous number of ways, and it ought to be done. How we go about it, I'm not quite certain of, but it needs to be done.

No doubt. But if you want to promote your culture and identity to others, it does help if you do it in a language they understand...

You misunderstand me, I do not advocate spreading culture or national identity to any other country outside the borders of that specific state. A nation is defined by community, common language, common belief, common location, common politics, any deviation from this is socially-dangerous and threatens a coherent and harmonious state. Communities thrive from common responsibilities and interests. These common interests are of course threatened by liberalist globalization, which threatens to break down national barriers and enforce a degenerate 'pluralism' of greed and selfishness. In economic terms it threatens to take the economic interest of say an individual outside the sphere of the nationstate community, this is of course treasonous. I advocate cultural, economic and political autarky.

Perhaps we should examine why that is. I suggested that some underlying unspoken xenophobia is part of the problem, and it probably is. Not blatant, mind you, but the sort of assumptions people will tend to make, the sort that result in things like a much larger number of blacks being imprisoned relatives to whites.

Using the race card again to fall back on. Fail, and color has nothing to do with blacks in jail.

Furthermore, I followed the assumption in regards to Mexican immigrants since it seems that's all that people talk about these days when they mean immigrants. Another sign of the sort of hidden xenophobia I speak of.

Because 69% of illegals are mexican. Falling on the race card twice. Fail.


Different areas, different things happen. Frankly I think it's disgusting that one has to assert an official language. Official languages generally tend to exclude anything that doesn't speak that language and deny services to people who don't understand the language.

That is wrong and if you read the official language bills you would know that. I find people against this racist.



And I don't go to any far-left websites. We've learned something about assumptions here.

You're on one right now.


As I said before, I'm not talking about outright, blatant racism of the sort that used to be common. I'm talking about the far more insidious kind that lingers and continues to fester everywhere.


Falling on the race 3 times. Fail.

Furthermore, I would ask you how exactly you support English. Be careful with saying things like what you just said, because they can be misinterpreted. Oftentimes people who say "I support this" will usually imply "to the exclusion of anything else."


I have already made my case and these laws don't prohibit people.


I don't look down on any language. And where I live in Colorado I can get by with English just fine and dandy too. I didn't say one couldn't. I said Spanish would be useful because it's spoken by many millions of citizens. And as I've said earlier in this thread, I also intend to learn French, Mandarin, and Hindi, which are useful throughout the world, not just in the United States.


You come across different.


No, they do make things worse. They make things worse by requiring services to only serve in one language. Imagine an immigrant who has just arrived from, say, Mexico, or Uganda, or Greece, or somewhere else where they wouldn't regularly speak English(and possibly not even have a real chance to do so.) Now let's say they poisoned themselves with something by accident, or they have a condition that requires specific medical aid in case they ingest a particular food. And what if they have an allergy to a commonly used treatment for their condition?


FALSE! English language laws require no such thing.

Under an official English law, a hospital would not be able to conduct services in the native language of the immigrant, and if they did not understand English, they would not be able to get across what the problem was. Unlike what some people would have you think, you can't mime every little problem with your body. Not even close.

FALSE! English language laws allow for other languages to be used on all levels in deal with another country and incases of emergency. So the hospitial would be able to do that. If you had done research instead of pointless assumptions you would have known that.




And how easy is that, really? Usually, such classes cost money, money the immigrants don't have. Would you support government funding to help with English language learning for them?


The governement does fund that.


True, they can try, but they won't succeed most of the time. Certainly not well enough to get by.

Wrong, immersion is the best teacher and works better than billingual.

And even with having to learn the language in the U.S., they have to try to get by without it until they do learn a language. Learning languages is slow even for children. For adults it takes much longer.

As i said before immersion is best and most don't mind and want to learn. Stop assuming they are morons.


I apologize for not having a source directly for you. I am drawing from my personal experience in aiding a village approximately one hundred miles south of Mexicali. Still, Mexico is not exactly the richest nation on the planet, and it is rife with corruption and a rich upper class that gladly squats down on the poor--one of the many problems.


Until proof is provided.


Considering I was talking about learning Japanese from subbed animes in this very thread, I obviously acknowledge that possibility.

Which I do as well, works rather well.

But tell me something. How likely is it, do you think, that you could really learn a language effectively from a television show or from a song? It's not. What I picked up was not a considerable handle on the Japanese language, but a few words here and there, and that was only because I subtitles that helped me out. Most television shows and songs aren't going to have those.


Very well, millions learn english that way. And in US EN SAP.

And frankly, it's ridiculous they should even have to resort to such an inefficient way of learning a language, and the fact that you suggest they should do it that way instead of suggesting sensible alternatives strikes me as not only naive about the situation, but cold-hearted.


Namecalling and assumptions. Fail again. I have proven you know nothing about this topic.


Not in the ways I want to see us do.

Explain.


Why? Why?

Because we are directly affected by their problems. Let me make something clear to you: you cannot isolate one nation from another in this world. Like it or not, we are all connected in various ways, and pretending that the problems of one nation does not concern another is ridiculously naive.


What is naive is assuming we can't be rich if one nation is poor. That is naive.

Problem is, though, you're right about the corruption in Mexico's government and economy. I brought that up myself so I certainly can't ignore it. But I wasn't putting forth a plan either. I was putting forth a suggestion. How we go about it is what we need to figure out.

As I said before, that is their problem not ours. Until they fix their issues no help and they don't need it.

And personally, I am very offended that you are accusing me of racism. The fact that Mexico is primary Hispanic and that the United States is primarily Caucasian has absolutely nothing to do with their economic situations. No, I take that back: It does, but only due to prior racism and bigotry on the part of all nations. (ALL nations.)


Hypocrite. You accused me of the same and unlike you I showed no racism. And no mexicos poverty is not racist, if you knew anything about their history you would have known it's their fault. Japan built itself up from less.

I want to help Mexico not because I see it as a "White Man's Burden" sort of thing, but because they are fellow human beings, and I help my fellow humans as much as I can. And the simple fact is, they have a situation that needs fixing, and we are able to fix it. Fixing that situation would benefit both Mexico and the United States in an enormous number of ways, and it ought to be done. How we go about it, I'm not quite certain of, but it needs to be done.



We tried to fix it and it failed, you do see it as a white man burden due to your lingering racism and feeling that only the white man can save them icky brown people from themselves. Mexico doesn't need our help, they need to help themselves and are capbale of fixing it like other nations have done, to assume we and only we can save them is not only naive but racist and nationalist. God forbid us brownies could ever do anything without the white man to hold our hands. :rolleyes:

Using the race card again to fall back on. Fail, and color has nothing to do with blacks in jail.

Erm, maybe you should try rereading what I've been saying and attempt to understand it rather than just dismissing it. For example:


Because 69% of illegals are mexican. Falling on the race card twice. Fail/

Here, you see? There's a very clear fact. Also a clear fact is that proportionally, there are far more blacks arrested for crimes than whites. Furthermore, they will generally tend to get harsher punishments if convicted.

You can deny this all you want, but there is hidden, underlying racism and xenophobia in our society, and it does affect how people view this situation.


That is wrong and if you read the official language bills you would know that. I find people against this racist.

Really? Most official language advocates tend to say exactly what I've said, that services would only be rendered in English, ect ect. Can you please point out in said bills where this is not true, or rather, can you please point out exactly what the bills say?

And if they don't require that sort of thing, what is the point?


You're on one right now.

And thus, yet another person fails to grasp the international political landscape. Congratulations.

This is not even remotely a far-left website. It does lean left, yes, but only to a certain degree, and as you can see, not everyone is a lefty. Not by far.



Falling on the race 3 times. Fail.

Yes, we can see you like to use the word fail. Can you please be specific about my failure?



I have already made my case and these laws don't prohibit people.

No, they don't prohibit people. They prohibit languages. I do suggest better reading comprehension.




You come across different.

I do? Can we please ask a few other people about that before we decide whether I do or not? Because if I honestly do, I need to work on that.




FALSE! English language laws require no such thing.

Then what's the point?


FALSE! English language laws allow for other languages to be used on all levels in deal with another country and incases of emergency. So the hospitial would be able to do that. If you had done research instead of pointless assumptions you would have known that.

Again, if that is so, and you can point out that is so, what's the point to the laws?


The governement does fund that.

Good. At least something is being done correctly.



Wrong, immersion is the best teacher and works better than billingual.

I didn't say it wasn't. Immersion however is not a guarantee of success.


As i said before immersion is best and most don't mind and want to learn. Stop assuming they are morons.

I'm not assuming they are morons. I'm basing my argument on well known, well understood facts. Ask any language teacher. They'll tell you adults find it harder to learn languages than children. This is true regardless of ethnicity, mate.



Until proof is provided.

Fair enough. I'm making the claim, so I ought to provide the evidence. Let me get back to you on that.



Which I do as well, works rather well.

Does it? Have you demonstrated that? Can you conduct a conversation in Japanese with someone who knows the language well? There are a number of people on this forum you can test that with if you'd like. I'm sure Daistallia or NERVUN would be happy to help you test that. If you can show me that one actually can use that to learn a language well, then I will admit my error.



Very well, millions learn english that way. And in US EN SAP.

Evidence?


Namecalling and assumptions. Fail again. I have proven you know nothing about this topic.

No you haven't. All you've done is said, "No, you're wrong" again and again. If you really want to prove I know nothing, back up your arguments with evidence.


Explain.

Our current aid systems do not do nearly enough to help improve the state of Mexico's economy, correct the corruption within the system and otherwise help the Mexican people. All it's done so far is put more money in the hands of corrupt officials both in business and politics.




What is naive is assuming we can't be rich if one nation is poor. That is naive.

True, but I never said that. Please, reread what I've said and try to understand it this time.

As I said before, that is their problem not ours. Until they fix their issues no help and they don't need it.
The world does not work like that anymore. We cannot be isolated. The problems of one nation is the problem of all nations.


Hypocrite. You accused me of the same and unlike you I showed no racism. And no mexicos poverty is not racist, if you knew anything about their history you would have known it's their fault. Japan built itself up from less.

I apologize for not having made clear what I meant. Basically, I was talking about various policies and decisions, treaties and what have you that nations like the United States conducted with Mexico throughout much of its history. They would usually treat them harshly and do their best to exploit them. After all, we did steal huge portions of territory from Mexico after we won the Mexican-American war.

Furthermore, Japan was able to build itself up due to its isolated location from the European powers, and afterwards only because the United States did not repeat the mistakes of the Entente in World War One and helped rebuild Japan instead of trying to grind them into the dirt like what was attempted with Germany.



We tried to fix it and it failed, you do see it as a white man burden due to your lingering racism and feeling that only the white man can save them icky brown people from themselves. Mexico doesn't need our help, they need to help themselves and are capbale of fixing it like other nations have done, to assume we and only we can save them is not only naive but racist and nationalist. God forbid us brownies could ever do anything without the white man to hold our hands. :rolleyes:
We tried one method, and it didn't work. Does that mean we don't try others, that we don't try to figure out other ways to do things? Of course not. We figure it out. I'm telling you point blank that I don't know how to do it, but simply that we should. Because we should, we ought to get people who would know how to figure this stuff out working on it and giving us the solutions we need rather than acting like idiots.

Furthermore, I wish you would stop accusing me of racism. I am not a racist by any means. Were all Mexicans white and the situation the same I would be saying exactly what I'm saying now. They are humans beings just like me. They deserve the help they need, and we--the United States--should do something about it not because we have a white majority, but simply because we are the ones in the position to help. We're the most powerful so for fuck's sake we ought to use that power responsibly!

The website doesn't lean anywhere. The posters on it are generally socially libertarian and relatively evenly split on economic issues.

It's a fair representation of the general views of the younger generations in all developed nations.

True. I was using the website and its users interchangably, which I shouldn't have been doing.

This is not even remotely a far-left website. It does lean left, yes, but only to a certain degree, and as you can see, not everyone is a lefty. Not by far.
The website doesn't lean anywhere. The posters on it are generally socially libertarian and relatively evenly split on economic issues.

It's a fair representation of the general views of the younger generations in all developed nations.

C'est assez Québecois. ;)

Non, pas du tout.

Quebecois-French speakers make use of a lot of English words, like 'cute' or 'fun', but never multisyllabic adjectives like 'beautiful'. I don't know where you've heard that, but it was probably a joke - Québécois often playfully mimic the Franglish of Americans and the those of the ROC (Rest of Canada).

Wrong, their are not 50 million spanish speakers here and if you had bothered to look at the US Census you would have known that 91.3% of american speak english very well. And minority means less than 50%, you know not the majority, and that would include English in France which is spoken. So you are very wrong here.

Roughly 30 million + or 10% of the population speak Spanish. Roughly 60 million speak a different language at home or 20% of the population.

http://www.census.gov/Press-Release/www/releases/archives/census_2000/001406.html

By dictatorial edict of course :rolleyes:


That's funny because I thought Quebec's policy was wipe English off the face of the planet >_>

Das ist the Plan, ja.

Right after our German-speaking overlords reveal themselves to the world, us being of the fabled 'surrender monkey' phylum and all.

"Quebec uber alles !!!"

:rolleyes:

*sighs*

And it was quite good, too. Although Euronews is better.

You misunderstand me, I do not advocate spreading culture or national identity to any other country outside the borders of that specific state. A nation is defined by community, common language, common belief, common location, common politics, any deviation from this is socially-dangerous and threatens a coherent and harmonious state. Communities thrive from common responsibilities and interests. These common interests are of course threatened by liberalist globalization, which threatens to break down national barriers and enforce a degenerate 'pluralism' of greed and selfishness. In economic terms it threatens to take the economic interest of say an individual outside the sphere of the nationstate community, this is of course treasonous. I advocate cultural, economic and political autarky.

The idea behind France 24 was to give people internationally an idea about the French point of view on world events. Much like Al-Jazeera will give you a general Islamic/Arabic point of view, or Deutsche Welle will give you a German point of view.
All these stations, of course, broadcast in English, for the very simple reason that most of the intended audience might not be able to understand French/German/Arab well enough to follow the programs, but most of them will have sufficient knowledge of English. It's a simple compromise.

So, to force a station like this to broadcast in French only will remove the very basis on which it was founded, and is in effect extremly counter-productive.
I wonder how long it's going to be before he will force all employees of the Instituts Francais worldwide to speak French to everybody who comes in looking for information, or fire them because he found out that they communicated with the locals in the local language...

The case is different: a larger percentage of Spanish speakers live in the US than English speakers in France.

Roughly 30 million + or 10% of the population speak Spanish. Roughly 60 million speak a different language at home or 20% of the population.

http://www.census.gov/Press-Release/www/releases/archives/census_2000/001406.html

Do you have anything to back this up? I've been looking on google, and the only info I could find was from "http://www.glreach.com/gbc/fr/french.php3", which lists that at least 30% of French people speak English. From the two working vacations I've taken over there, I would put the number closer to 75-80%. Even using 30%, I doubt that 30% of America speaks Spanish.