NationStates Jolt Archive

If you are a parent, would you have done the same thing?

If you are teenager, how would you have responded?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080109/ap_on_fe_st/odd_car_ad;_ylt=Ag8mOu3JX3.tvJ54VEFxXdSs0NUE

I probably wouldn't have thought of making an add that mean :)
I do beleive this would work though.

If i was the teenager, i'd probably go into hibernation and hope the whole thing has blown over when i wake up mid-april ;)

Well, I think it's totally overblown and out of the question evil. But that may be influenced by the fact that I disagree with US alcohol laws.

another mother who doesn't understand the norms and values of western society, that alcohol is okay to drink with a group of friends.
Personally at 19 i think it's unfair for the mother to sell the car, and setting the rule of no booze just isn't gonna happen.

If my hypothetical child had broken my rules then i'd definitely sell his hypothetical car

I would have smacked him. Then sell his car.

Sounds like using a nuke to clear an anthill...

i wouldnt have put the ad in the paper but i would have sold the car. 19 is an adult. he can buy his own damned car.

Personally, I don't think I would sell a car I just bought 2 months ago in order to spite a 19 year old.

Although there is the possibility this is just the straw that broke the camels back

Very true. As per usual, the article is a bit vague on that point.

Sounds like using a nuke to clear an anthill...

Although there is the possibility this is just the straw that broke the camels back

another mother who doesn't understand the norms and values of western society, that alcohol is okay to drink with a group of friends.
Personally at 19 i think it's unfair for the mother to sell the car, and setting the rule of no booze just isn't gonna happen.

All that aside, though the kid did break the law if he drunk it, and if he drunk it and then drove.

If you are a parent, would you have done the same thing?

If you are teenager, how would you have responded?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080109/ap_on_fe_st/odd_car_ad;_ylt=Ag8mOu3JX3.tvJ54VEFxXdSs0NUE
Doesn't seem particularly mean to me. According to the article, "No booze" was one of the few rules that she set down when he first got the car. He blew it.

If this is world's meanest, what do you call mothers who lock their kids up in cages for days on end over minor infractions, or the ones who stick them in the basement without food or water for a few days?

2nd meanest?

To be honest - she paid / helped pay for the car, and set only two rules, which he broke. Forget what the laws of the country in question are - either he mans up and buys his own car, or he listens to what his folks tell him.

If this is world's meanest, what do you call mothers who lock their kids up in cages for days on end over minor infractions, or the ones who stick them in the basement without food or water for a few days?

2nd meanest?

see genie,
http://si.unm.edu/bern_2003/autumn/aut_tl/tl.html

If you are a parent, would you have done the same thing?

If you are teenager, how would you have responded?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080109/ap_on_fe_st/odd_car_ad;_ylt=Ag8mOu3JX3.tvJ54VEFxXdSs0NUE

She bought the car on two ground rules that he must have understood. She's completely justified in selling in.

Doesn't seem particularly mean to me. According to the article, "No booze" was one of the few rules that she set down when he first got the car. He blew it.

Yep. It's her car to sell for whatever reason. The reason of "he broke the rule" seems good enough to me. Breech of contract. *nod*

If this is world's meanest, what do you call mothers who lock their kids up in cages for days on end over minor infractions, or the ones who stick them in the basement without food or water for a few days?

2nd meanest?

years in some cases.

19 and his mother still has authority over him? Loser.

The meanest mom in the world would of left the booze in the car, then next time he drove it call the cops and report him for drinking and driving. Open containers are illegal.

On the mother's part: brilliance. Absolute brilliance.
If I were that kid, I'd just hibernate until mid-March and hope everyone had forgotten.

On the mother's part: brilliance. Absolute brilliance.
If I were that kid, I'd just hibernate until mid-March and hope everyone had forgotten.

Mid-March of 2016 maybe. People are going to clip that advert out of the paper and carry it around to tease him with, I guaruntee it.

Guess who needs to buy his own car.

Sounds like using a nuke to clear an anthill...

always works for me *shrugs* the nuke on the ants that is

the kid is a fucking spanner for putting booze under the front seat. considering the parents probably bought the car they are well withing their rights to sell it. that said i think it's a little harsh and i would have said a few months ban from going to parties would have sufficed. if i was the kid i would get a job to save up and buy my own car and then store whatever i liked in it.

if you let your parents spoon feed you, prepare for that spoon to be taken away.

The meanest mom in the world would of left the booze in the car, then next time he drove it call the cops and report him for drinking and driving. Open containers are illegal.

QFT! EXCELLENT! You win the thread! :D

Mid-March of 2016 maybe. People are going to clip that advert out of the paper and carry it around to tease him with, I guaruntee it.

This is also true. This is why I believe that, although she was justified in selling the car, she took it too far by making a point of embarrassing him publicly like that, because he probably won't be able to live it down very easily or very quickly, and it's not like he doesn't deserve to be allowed to live it down, because IMO he DOES deserve to be allowed to live it down.

That said, he DID break the rules his mother set for him, and therefore his mother had every right to sell the car.

Seems stupid that at 19, she still feels the need to control his drinking habits...however, if he did agree, then she can sell the car. Public humiliation seems a little over the top. Also seems to be a bit attention-whorish to run the ad for an extra week after the car has been sold.

If she claims to believe him, however, that the booze wasn't his, then I don't quite see why she has chosen to go the merciless route, particularly if this was the first offence.

I give her an award for being a responsible and caring parent.

another mother who doesn't understand the norms and values of western society, that alcohol is okay to drink with a group of friends. Too bad drunk driving isn't a norm of most western societies.
Personally at 19 i think it's unfair for the mother to sell the car, and setting the rule of no booze just isn't gonna happen. people who ride in my car have to obey two personal rules. no smoking and no drinking alcohol in the car. easy rules that haven't been broken yet. All my friends understand and comply with my rules as I comply with their car rules.

The meanest mom in the world would of left the booze in the car, then next time he drove it call the cops and report him for drinking and driving. Open containers are illegal.
I have a friend who's younger brother is always 'borrowing' her car without asking. she complained to us (me and several cops who hang out with us) and they said, tell you what. call us the next time he 'borrows' it and they'll put out an APB for it since it is theft.

after that, I don't recall her saying he borrowed her car again.

Seems stupid that at 19, she still feels the need to control his drinking habits...however, if he did agree, then she can sell the car. Public humiliation seems a little over the top. Also seems to be a bit attention-whorish to run the ad for an extra week after the car has been sold.

If she claims to believe him, however, that the booze wasn't his, then I don't quite see why she has chosen to go the merciless route, particularly if this was the first offence.
the rule was "No Alcohol" not "No Alcohol for the driver" the booze under the front seat broke that rule. And if she paid for the car as well as is paying for the insurance. then she has the right to sell the car.

now he could always buy the car from her and he can pay for the insurance and thus make his own rules...

*applaudes Jane Hambleton: "The meanest mom on the planet."

Over here the drinking age is 18 (16 for beer, wine and mixers), so he wouldn't have broken any laws. I'd've reminded him about the dangers of driving drunk, but that's about it. The mother is just being a self-righteous twat, for lack of a better word. She could have just as easily written that ad out in a normal way, but she had to have the attention of the whole town. This isn't about punishing the son, this is all about stroking her ego.

Seems stupid that at 19, she still feels the need to control his drinking habits...however, if he did agree, then she can sell the car. Public humiliation seems a little over the top. Also seems to be a bit attention-whorish to run the ad for an extra week after the car has been sold.

If she claims to believe him, however, that the booze wasn't his, then I don't quite see why she has chosen to go the merciless route, particularly if this was the first offence.

no alcohol in the car sounds like a fair rule, for 3 reasons that have nothing to do with trying to control her son

1 it could increase the risk of the car being impounded
2 it could increase the risk of crash (drunk driving)
3 it could very well leave her son (who apparently can't even afford a car) in jail with bail money due and a huge freaking fine.

You want your parents to support you? don't act like an idiot.

This mother didn't go far enough. I'd've knocked my son out cold.

Reminds me of that guy a few weeks ago with the GH3...

Nonetheless, I applaud this move.

This is also true. This is why I believe that, although she was justified in selling the car, she took it too far by making a point of embarrassing him publicly like that, because he probably won't be able to live it down very easily or very quickly, and it's not like he doesn't deserve to be allowed to live it down, because IMO he DOES deserve to be allowed to live it down.

That said, he DID break the rules his mother set for him, and therefore his mother had every right to sell the car.

I congratulate her heartily on what she did. Hopefully it will have two effects... first, her kid will REALLY learn the lesson she intends to teach (that drinking and driving don't mix, so JUST DON'T DO IT!) and second, other parents that see the ad may realize that they need to be more proactive with their own kids on the issue.

If so, she may prevent many needlessly horrific accidents. Good for her!

As to not living it down, he engaged in an activity that could have gotten him and completely innocent random strangers mangled or killed. No, he does not deserve to live it down quickly. He should be reminded daily of the stupidity of that particular choice. And eventually he WILL live it down, but hopefully in the meanwhile the lesson will stick. I bet that at home when he is pissed off about the whole thing she says "I prefer an annoyed live son to a happy dead one. I love you kid. If that is so terrible, sue me."

the rule was "No Alcohol" not "No Alcohol for the driver" the booze under the front seat broke that rule. And if she paid for the car as well as is paying for the insurance. then she has the right to sell the car.I understand the rule that was made, as well as its implications. Personally, I think for a first offence, she went overboard. Particularly with clearly just trying to embarass the boy (running the ad for an extra week, that kinda thing). Sure, it is her car, and they did make an agreement, and he did break it. I don't contest any of that, nor do I think she was entirely out of line in her course of action.

I look at it the same way I look at many of my friends parents. They tell their kids (some who are 21) that there is a curfew and no alcohol while they stay at home. This is inane and controlling (in my opinion), but well within their rights as owners of the home. The woman has every right to sell the car, and yes, deplorable as I find it, try to embarass her son (the word sophomoric comes to mind here) as some form of "punishment". I don't argue that. I do argue that she is a bit of an attention whore.

no alcohol in the car sounds like a fair rule, for 3 reasons that have nothing to do with trying to control her son

1 it could increase the risk of the car being impounded
2 it could increase the risk of crash (drunk driving)
3 it could very well leave her son (who apparently can't even afford a car) in jail with bail money due and a huge freaking fine.
As for 1, I'm a bit biased against the case as laws around here now allow open alcohol as long as it is not in the drivers posession and the driver is not intoxicated (ie, he can't be holding an open beer, or, in this case, an open bottle of alcohol is acceptable untill he has any BAC). 2, well, just because the alcohol isn't in the car doesn't mean he isn't drinking...actually, I don't know anyone who literally drinks while driving...the drinking is done elsewhere. 3, I agree...as he is underage for local laws, he can't have the alcohol anyway.

However, he is 19. He goes to jail, that's his problem. Car gets impounded, leave it to him to get out. Drunk driving...well, that's quite a bit more colorful than the other two in many ways, and as I wouldn't be able to cover it here, I'll pass for now.

Is she teaching some level of responsibility? Definatly. Is she within her rights? No question. Do I necessarily agree with all of it? No.

You want your parents to support you? don't act like an idiot.
Definatly. However, as a parent, one needs to remember that mistakes do happen.
I've found full beer cans in my car that I didn't put in there...someone dropped it, it rolled under the seat. It happens, and the son, despite the law and family rules, might not be aware of it. If it was under the seat, I could easily see someone putting it down and having it kicked under the seat. The son may never have known it had even entered the car.

This mother didn't go far enough. I'd've knocked my son out cold.

Reminds me of that guy a few weeks ago with the GH3...

Nonetheless, I applaud this move.

I dare say your 19 year old son could just as easily knock you out. But such are the risks one takes when one utilises violence.

Not a bad idea. Teenagers need to be taught respect, and the only way to do it is it seems nowadays to embaress the hell out of them. Good for her.

The car that is their decision ... I would have probably withheld use for a specified period of time rather then sale.

The add was absolutely un called for, talk about bad parenting. What good could she realistically believe was going to come from purposeful public humiliation?

She gets 15 mins of fame as the world's meanest mom?

The car that is their decision ... I would have probably withheld use for a specified period of time rather then sale.

The add was absolutely un called for, talk about bad parenting. What good could she realistically believe was going to come from purposeful public humiliation?

FUCK NO!

But this does bring in the question of property rights. He is 19, that car is legally his, not his mom's (Well, in British Columbia that would be the case). Where I live, this is a case of auto-theft.

Not a bad idea. Teenagers need to be taught respect, and the only way to do it is it seems nowadays to embaress the hell out of them. Good for her.
One problem. He's legally an adult. And if you think embarassment is the only way to teach a child respect, then I'd be prepared to have an incredibly disrespectful child.
The car that is their decision ... I would have probably withheld use for a specified period of time rather then sale.

The add was absolutely un called for, talk about bad parenting. What good could she realistically believe was going to come from purposeful public humiliation?
Exactly. Personally, I would resent my mother for doing that. Great, it taught me a lesson. I'll never drive with alcohol in my car again. I also won't particularly like my mother for a while, and, considering the fact that it was run for an extra week, not confide in her very often. Assuming he did tell the truth and it wasn't his booze, imagine what she would do if he actually did do something wrong some day and needed help. [note: not my personal thought process, but an easy one to imagine him going through]

It would be interesting to break these responses for and against her up in two ways... first by the age of the responder (and possibly along a subcategory of whether they have kids of their own), then by whether or not they had ever lost someone in a drunk driving accident. I bet both those variables color things a lot.

FUCK NO!

But this does bring in the question of property rights. He is 19, that car is legally his, not his mom's (Well, in British Columbia that would be the case). Where I live, this is a case of auto-theft.

Since she bought the car property rights don't come into it at all, unless she signed it over to him at some point.

I understand the rule that was made, as well as its implications. Personally, I think for a first offence, she went overboard. Particularly with clearly just trying to embarass the boy (running the ad for an extra week, that kinda thing). Sure, it is her car, and they did make an agreement, and he did break it. I don't contest any of that, nor do I think she was entirely out of line in her course of action. I don't. as people argue, he's 19. he should've been thinking about the rules and their consequences. people have been fired for being drunk on the job (1st offence) others for making mistakes at their workplace... he lost a car which is small considering he didn't pay for the car and possibly the insurance.

I look at it the same way I look at many of my friends parents. They tell their kids (some who are 21) that there is a curfew and no alcohol while they stay at home. This is inane and controlling (in my opinion), but well within their rights as owners of the home. The woman has every right to sell the car, and yes, deplorable as I find it, try to embarass her son (the word sophomoric comes to mind here) as some form of "punishment". I don't argue that. I do argue that she is a bit of an attention whore. no one is saying she's NOT an attention whore. however, which would be worse. this kind of attention or the one most famlies get when the newspapers print how their child was involved in a drunk driving accident?

This mother didn't go far enough. I'd've knocked my son out cold.

Reminds me of that guy a few weeks ago with the GH3...

Nonetheless, I applaud this move.

I have never raised a hand to my father as tough an old farmer hard ass as he is , and he never has had to raise a hand beyond one or two spankings as a child.

1) he would be a better parent then knocking a kid out and it would never have had to come to that ever with his personality

2) At that age a serious move to beat me like would be required me to defend myself. He is a big guy and I still might have lost but at that point and at that age it is assault and it is self defense at that point simple as that.

FUCK NO!

But this does bring in the question of property rights. He is 19, that car is legally his, not his mom's (Well, in British Columbia that would be the case). Where I live, this is a case of auto-theft.

Depends on who bought the car. If the parents did, even if they let him use it and referred to it as his car, unless they signed it over to him, it is the parent's and they can do anything they want with it.

One problem. He's legally an adult. And if you think embarassment is the only way to teach a child respect, then I'd be prepared to have an incredibly disrespectful child.

Exactly. Personally, I would resent my mother for doing that. Great, it taught me a lesson. I'll never drive with alcohol in my car again. I also won't particularly like my mother for a while, and, considering the fact that it was run for an extra week, not confide in her very often. Assuming he did tell the truth and it wasn't his booze, imagine what she would do if he actually did do something wrong some day and needed help. [note: not my personal thought process, but an easy one to imagine him going through]

I am not a very public person that sort of humiliation I don't know what I would do beyond loosing all respect for my parents as human beings. It sure as hell would not make me follow their rule for my good or not.

I am not a very public person that sort of humiliation I don't know what I would do beyond loosing all respect for my parents as human beings. It sure as hell would not make me follow their rule for my good or not.

Same here. I detest people who feel the need to air their family problems in public. Shut up and deal with it in your own home...we don't need to see your dysfunction. People can forgive a great many things...purposeful (or even accidental) embarassment is one that rarely ever does.

I sure as hell would not respect my parents...be it if I was 16 [when they could still control me], 19 [that hazy area where they still supported me but couldn't directly control me] or next year [financial and social independence outside of those we mutually agree upon]

She gets 15 mins of fame as the world's meanest mom?

Then it was for the wrong reason, how she was bragging about it makes me think it was for her benefit not his. It sure as hell would not have helped me learn the lesson that he has to not to have alcohol underage in a car (or at any age)

Then it was for the wrong reason, how she was bragging about it makes me think it was for her benefit not his. It sure as hell would not have helped me learn the lesson that he has to not to have alcohol underage in a car (or at any age)

Then it is not a technique your mother should use. However, it might be EXACTLY the right technique to use for this kid, and I know kids that this would work very well on.

However, the vehemence of your opposition leads me to hazard a guess that even though you might be incredibly unhappy about it if your mother did something like this to you, it would also be a lesson you would never forget. And some lessons NEED to be taught that strongly.

Mmm... I love creative punishment. Since you can't smack your kids around anymore (legally) this is the only way to get through to them. You can talk yourself blue in the face and try and sort through their problems, but chances are you'll just be ignored.

So sell all their most cherished possesions that -you- buy them. Maybe that will be a lesson learned. My parents weren't financially minded enough. They didn't bother selling my stuff, they just broke it and threw it out.

Then it was for the wrong reason, how she was bragging about it makes me think it was for her benefit not his. It sure as hell would not have helped me learn the lesson that he has to not to have alcohol underage in a car (or at any age)
The lesson I'd learn is to hide things from my parents better, especially my attention seeking mother.
Mmm... I love creative punishment. Since you can't smack your kids around anymore (legally) this is the only way to get through to them. You can talk yourself blue in the face and try and sort through their problems, but chances are you'll just be ignored.

So sell all their most cherished possesions that -you- buy them. Maybe that will be a lesson learned. My parents weren't financially minded enough. They didn't bother selling my stuff, they just broke it and threw it out.
Or they'll just get by without such possessions, and learn that cherished possessions will simply be used to blackmail them. Eventually your method of punishment will become useless as your child would simply no longer value anything you gave him/her, which would make for some unpleasant christmases and birthdays.

Mmm... I love creative punishment. Since you can't smack your kids around anymore (legally) this is the only way to get through to them. You can talk yourself blue in the face and try and sort through their problems, but chances are you'll just be ignored.

So sell all their most cherished possesions that -you- buy them. Maybe that will be a lesson learned. My parents weren't financially minded enough. They didn't bother selling my stuff, they just broke it and threw it out.

Amazing my parents did not have to hit me nor sell my stuff

And they are about as hard ass old farmer RC parents there are on the planet ... I have been resentfull of some of their decisions over the years but if people really think that this sort of crap or hitting your parents is NESSISARY to be a good parent they were even better then I thought they were at being parents

No need to break my stuff
No need to hit me
No need to publicly humiliate me

They just had the right attitude and some good hard work as punishment, and that was few and far between.

I don't. as people argue, he's 19. he should've been thinking about the rules and their consequences. people have been fired for being drunk on the job (1st offence) others for making mistakes at their workplace... he lost a car which is small considering he didn't pay for the car and possibly the insurance.Yes, people do lose jobs for being drunk at work etc. However, this isn't work. It's family. I tend to expect a bit more compassion from my family than my employer. Yeah, he messed up. It happens. I'm not saying ignore it, but why reject a potential for a second chance (atleast not without huge hassle)

no one is saying she's NOT an attention whore. however, which would be worse. this kind of attention or the one most famlies get when the newspapers print how their child was involved in a drunk driving accident?Having alcohol in the car does not imply that he had been drinking. If the risk of police action and death don't stop him from driving drunk, what good is public humiliation and removal of the vehicle? What if he WAS the responsible sober driver? Now he doesn't have a car and you have to place your faith in someone elses child instead of your own.

On a personal level, I always end up sober driver because I don't trust anyone else to be sober the entire night. My parents found booze in my car and threatened to take away my car because of it untill I forced a friend to come forward and claim it. Had they taken my car, I would have been at the mercy of others.

Then it is not a technique your mother should use. However, it might be EXACTLY the right technique to use for this kid, and I know kids that this would work very well on.

However, the vehemence of your opposition leads me to hazard a guess that even though you might be incredibly unhappy about it if your mother did something like this to you, it would also be a lesson you would never forget. And some lessons NEED to be taught that strongly.
Something that would not be forgotten nor forgiven, I was not a rebellious child but that would most assuredly drive me to that.

Drunk driving is such a problem it kills hundreds a year and so many continue to think the laws are unfair and these kinds of things are unjustified. I say good for her! Good for her for loving her son enough to prevent him from ruining his life! Good for her! Driving is a privilege and it comes with responsibility. What if he had been drinking, or simply what if he had crashed, the evidence would point against him. If he wanted his car he should have kept the alcohol out.

Yes, people do lose jobs for being drunk at work etc. However, this isn't work. It's family. I tend to expect a bit more compassion from my family than my employer. Yeah, he messed up. It happens. I'm not saying ignore it, but why reject a potential for a second chance (atleast not without huge hassle)

Having alcohol in the car does not imply that he had been drinking. If the risk of police action and death don't stop him from driving drunk, what good is public humiliation and removal of the vehicle? What if he WAS the responsible sober driver? Now he doesn't have a car and you have to place your faith in someone elses child instead of your own.

On a personal level, I always end up sober driver because I don't trust anyone else to be sober the entire night. My parents found booze in my car and threatened to take away my car because of it untill I forced a friend to come forward and claim it. Had they taken my car, I would have been at the mercy of others.

I never had the urge really with my friends to underage drink and I am also so sensitive to drinking while driving, add to that living way out of town which is sometimes hit in miss getting to in anything other then a truck in the winter makes it not easy for anyone to give a ride.

Drunk driving is such a problem it kills hundreds a year and so many continue to think the laws are unfair and these kinds of things are unjustified.
This has nothing to do with law at all.
I say good for her! Good for her for loving her son enough to prevent him from ruining his life! Good for her!
Good for her having such an ego that she's running the ad for longer than necessary, just to show what a 'mean mom' she is.
Driving is a privilege and it comes with responsibility. What if he had been drinking, or simply what if he had crashed, the evidence would point against him. If he wanted his car he should have kept the alcohol out.

This is true.

Something that would not be forgotten nor forgiven, I was not a rebellious child but that would most assuredly drive me to that.

Then this would not have been a lesson you needed, and as such WOULD have been excessive.

Nevertheless, I still say good for her.

I transport alcohol when giving friends rides or even going to a party where I have a sober cab (my GF)
That does not mean I drive while drunk.

I don't see how possession of alcohol is evidence of drunk driving.

Especially a closed contained under the seat. Kind of hard to drink from a closed bottle that you can't reach.

Then this would not have been a lesson you needed, and as such WOULD have been excessive.

Nevertheless, I still say good for her.

How do we know he needed it ... I cant imagine this having a good impact on someone

The car yes but the news ad seems pointless

Drunk driving is such a problem it kills hundreds a year and so many continue to think the laws are unfair and these kinds of things are unjustified. I say good for her! Good for her for loving her son enough to prevent him from ruining his life! Good for her! Driving is a privilege and it comes with responsibility. What if he had been drinking, or simply what if he had crashed, the evidence would point against him. If he wanted his car he should have kept the alcohol out.

I transport alcohol when giving friends rides or even going to a party where I have a sober cab (my GF)
That does not mean I drive while drunk.

I don't see how possession of alcohol is evidence of drunk driving.

Yes, people do lose jobs for being drunk at work etc. However, this isn't work. It's family. I tend to expect a bit more compassion from my family than my employer. Yeah, he messed up. It happens. I'm not saying ignore it, but why reject a potential for a second chance (atleast not without huge hassle) because where better to learn about the luxury of second chances than at home? it's not like he lost anything except a bit of pride. he didn't pay for the car, I doubt he was paying for the insurance, and he only had two rules to follow. how much more compassion does one need. I had to BUY my first car and pay for the insurance.

I bet you if his mother buys him another car, and set's those rules down, he will be more careful with this 'second' chance.

Having alcohol in the car does not imply that he had been drinking. If the risk of police action and death don't stop him from driving drunk, what good is public humiliation and removal of the vehicle? What if he WAS the responsible sober driver? Now he doesn't have a car and you have to place your faith in someone elses child instead of your own. the rule was not "no drunk driving". the rule was not "no alcohol for the driver". the rule was NO ALCOHOL. he has control of who gets into his car and he could've easily said "Sorry, can't transport beer." or if someone does bring in beer (unopened) he makes sure that it's taken out when that person leaves. his or not his, drunk or not drinking, the fact is that he broke the rule and suffered the consequences.

On a personal level, I always end up sober driver because I don't trust anyone else to be sober the entire night. My parents found booze in my car and threatened to take away my car because of it untill I forced a friend to come forward and claim it. Had they taken my car, I would have been at the mercy of others.
I'm a sober driver because I don't drink. any beer found in my car my parents know it's someone else. However, the rule I had to follow was 'no passengers' because 1) I had just recieved my licence (age 16). 2) my childhood of pushing the parental envelope did leave them rather... cautious.

so guess what. I didn't take passengers in their car. my friends understood and didn't rib me for it. and my parents lifted that a couple years later after showing I could be responsible with their car, he didn't last 3 weeks (if the add was accurate.)

Drunk driving is such a problem it kills hundreds a year and so many continue to think the laws are unfair and these kinds of things are unjustified. I say good for her! Good for her for loving her son enough to prevent him from ruining his life! Good for her! Driving is a privilege and it comes with responsibility. What if he had been drinking, or simply what if he had crashed, the evidence would point against him. If he wanted his car he should have kept the alcohol out.Where does it say ANYTHING about him drinking? If she is that concerned, breathalyze him when he leaves and again when he comes back. The evidence doesn't point against him just for having booze in his car, as they could either a) breathalyze him or b) check his BAC during autopsy.

I never had the urge really with my friends to underage drink and I am also so sensitive to drinking while driving, add to that living way out of town which is sometimes hit in miss getting to in anything other then a truck in the winter makes it not easy for anyone to give a ride.
I did drink a bit underage...usually if I was sleeping over. I did drive with up to 4 beers in my system while underage (putting me around .09 BAC, legal for a 21 year old, but not for me at my age), and I only did that in an incredible emergency with no other options. I would usually get out somewhere, grab a beer when I first got there, and be good for the night.


How do we know he needed it ... I cant imagine this having a good impact on someone

The car yes but the news ad seems pointless
Not to mention a blatant guilt trip, implying that the boy didn't appreciate his parents and was a general asshat.

If the risk of police action and death don't stop him from driving drunk, what good is public humiliation and removal of the vehicle?

1. Removal of the vehicle makes it extremely difficult to drive drunk.

2. Public humiliation is one way to teach a lesson to someone who refuses to learn it any other way. 2A. Seeing someone else humiliated is often a way to teach a lesson to others. If ANYONE doesn't drive drunk because of this, it is worth all the humiliation this kid suffers for doing such a stupid thing. The KID may never see it that way. But he will be alive to not see it, and that may be enough.

What if he WAS the responsible sober driver? Now he doesn't have a car and you have to place your faith in someone elses child instead of your own.
If he had been responsible, he would have said to his friend "No alcohol in my car. Dump it out and throw it away or walk home, buddy." That was the rule. Not "no alcohol of yours, but if a friend happens to have some, well, that is ok" but rather "no alcohol at all". Rather cut and dried.

And if the kid is stupid enough to get into a car with someone else who has been drinking as the driver, then the possibility is fairly strong that he was NOT all that sober and responsible on his own. All in all, it is a very strong way to drive the point home, but it is better than driving the kid, his friends, and innocent strangers away in a hearse. Much better!

Personally, I don't think I would sell a car I just bought 2 months ago in order to spite a 19 year old.

I think it was a form of punishment. Not spite.

I absolutely agree with the general synopsis that I get from reading the responses to the OP (I didn't read the article). If I buy something and rules are present, then I feel the right to take away what I paid for as punishment. He is an adult, he should accept the consequences, or not break reasonable rules (not to mention law).

Without punishment she is enforcing lawless behaviour, contributing to crime (even minor). With punishment she is standing for everything that parenting should represent, as well as representing our country well.

How do we know he needed it ... I cant imagine this having a good impact on someone

The car yes but the news ad seems pointless

Seems pointless to you. To me it makes a great point. The mother was admitting to the world that she KNOWS her son thinks this is unjust, but that she loves him enough to do it anyway. She is also saying to the world "KIDS WILL DRIVE DRUNK, PEOPLE! KEEP AN EYE ON YOURS, EVEN IF THEY HATE YOU FOR DOING IT!" To her son she is saying "Hate me all you want, but learn this lesson now. I want you to know that driving and alcohol DO NOT MIX. I gave you this rule for a reason, you obviously did not learn it when I gave you the rule, so LEARN IT NOW." Good for her, I say!

because where better to learn about the luxury of second chances than at home? it's not like he lost anything except a bit of pride. he didn't pay for the car, I doubt he was paying for the insurance, and he only had two rules to follow. how much more compassion does one need. I had to BUY my first car and pay for the insurance.
And his mobility. He's 19, which leads me to believe one of two things: he has a job or is in school. Is mom really going to be able to drive him to classes or work?
I see no reason to assume anything about him paying or not paying insurance. Yes, it was generous of his parents to buy him the car...very generous in fact. And if they paid his insurance, even more so. However, with a 19 year old, it isn't generally something that is just to bum around town and go to parties...
I bet you if his mother buys him another car, and set's those rules down, he will be more careful with this 'second' chance.
Likely yes. I bet that he'll also resent her for a good long time. Perhaps not her primary concern, but has some pretty big implications. Personally, I would not accept anything from my parents following that for fear that it would then be used as a way to humiliate me. Perhaps that's a good thing...I don't think a bottle of booze is worth that kinda damage to family ties.

the rule was not "no drunk driving". the rule was not "no alcohol for the driver". the rule was NO ALCOHOL. he has control of who gets into his car and he could've easily said "Sorry, can't transport beer." or if someone does bring in beer (unopened) he makes sure that it's taken out when that person leaves. his or not his, drunk or not drinking, the fact is that he broke the rule and suffered the consequences. This section tied into the next paragraph. Again, can you honestly say that you are constantly aware of every item in your car? Your friend brings a backpack, do you demand that they show you the contents? As a driver, one is responsible for everything in their vehicle. Your friend happens to bring something illegal into the car, and you're pegged. Yes, you broke a law by allowing it into your car...but did you even know you broke that law?


I'm a sober driver because I don't drink. any beer found in my car my parents know it's someone else. However, the rule I had to follow was 'no passengers' because 1) I had just recieved my licence (age 16). 2) my childhood of pushing the parental envelope did leave them rather... cautious.

so guess what. I didn't take passengers in their car. my friends understood and didn't rib me for it. and my parents lifted that a couple years later after showing I could be responsible with their car, he didn't last 3 weeks (if the add was accurate.)No evidence that he just got his licence...just this particular car.
But even then, I once again state that he might not have been aware of it. My parents knew what I did, and so things found in my car could easily be assumed mine. They weren't, but could be assumed to be. My friends generally respected my car rules, as I was their ride, but things still happen. A beer rolls out of a backpack...a bag of weed slips out of someones pocket and into the seat...it happens.

If you are a parent, would you have done the same thing?

If you are teenager, how would you have responded?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080109/ap_on_fe_st/odd_car_ad;_ylt=Ag8mOu3JX3.tvJ54VEFxXdSs0NUE

It's good to know parents can actually stand up to their kids every once in a while.

Seems pointless to you. To me it makes a great point. The mother was admitting to the world that she KNOWS her son thinks this is unjust, but that she loves him enough to do it anyway. She is also saying to the world "KIDS WILL DRIVE DRUNK, PEOPLE! KEEP AN EYE ON YOURS, EVEN IF THEY HATE YOU FOR DOING IT!" To her son she is saying "Hate me all you want, but learn this lesson now. I want you to know that driving and alcohol DO NOT MIX. I gave you this rule for a reason, you obviously did not learn it when I gave you the rule, so LEARN IT NOW." Good for her, I say!

Wow, I agree totally.

This mother didn't go far enough. I'd've knocked my son out cold.

Reminds me of that guy a few weeks ago with the GH3...

Nonetheless, I applaud this move.Problem is if you lay a singal finger on a person who has reached the age of majority then it is well within their rights to beat you up and then sue you for assualt. That is why their is something called logic.:rolleyes: So do not go around thinking violence works as if you do you are bound to end up in a ditch somewhere with Sicilians giving you a dirt nap.

I did drink a bit underage...usually if I was sleeping over. I did drive with up to 4 beers in my system while underage (putting me around .09 BAC, legal for a 21 year old, but not for me at my age), and I only did that in an incredible emergency with no other options. I would usually get out somewhere, grab a beer when I first got there, and be good for the night.

(speaking very quietly right now) What would you say constituted an "incredible emergency with no other options" where driving drunk was ok and you did it?





I had a much longer reply to your post, but this is the absolutely most important question.

And his mobility. He's 19, which leads me to believe one of two things: he has a job or is in school. Is mom really going to be able to drive him to classes or work?
I see no reason to assume anything about him paying or not paying insurance. Yes, it was generous of his parents to buy him the car...very generous in fact. And if they paid his insurance, even more so. However, with a 19 year old, it isn't generally something that is just to bum around town and go to parties...

Let him get his own way to school or work, they provided a means, with restrictions, he violated said restrictions, parental generosity ceases, nor is his mother in any way obligated to cart him around anywhere, he is an adult, it is enough that they let him live there, and even were at one time willing to buy him a car.

Likely yes. I bet that he'll also resent her for a good long time. Perhaps not her primary concern, but has some pretty big implications. Personally, I would not accept anything from my parents following that for fear that it would then be used as a way to humiliate me. Perhaps that's a good thing...I don't think a bottle of booze is worth that kinda damage to family ties.

If it damages family ties it is his fault for not realizing that the entire situation arises from him not following reasonable rules.

This section tied into the next paragraph. Again, can you honestly say that you are constantly aware of every item in your car? Your friend brings a backpack, do you demand that they show you the contents? As a driver, one is responsible for everything in their vehicle. Your friend happens to bring something illegal into the car, and you're pegged. Yes, you broke a law by allowing it into your car...but did you even know you broke that law?

Perhaps people should make sure that their friends are not carrying illegal items into their car... if it is their responsibility, it is their responsibility. Perhaps an easier option would be to not allow anyone into your car who might bring illegal items with them... it would at least cut down the risks.

No evidence that he just got his licence...just this particular car.
But even then, I once again state that he might not have been aware of it. My parents knew what I did, and so things found in my car could easily be assumed mine. They weren't, but could be assumed to be. My friends generally respected my car rules, as I was their ride, but things still happen. A beer rolls out of a backpack...a bag of weed slips out of someones pocket and into the seat...it happens.

Well, the driver should then make everyone aware of specific rules... if his friends don't want to respect that, it is his problem for letting them into the car... perhaps it was innocent, but there was still alcohol in the car... which is what the problem stems from... if schools ban guns because of the inherent threat of violence, they should not let people off the hook for bringing guns 'just to show friends' rules are rules....

1. Removal of the vehicle makes it extremely difficult to drive drunk.It also makes it extremely difficult to drive sober.

2. Public humiliation is one way to teach a lesson to someone who refuses to learn it any other way. 2A. Seeing someone else humiliated is often a way to teach a lesson to others. If ANYONE doesn't drive drunk because of this, it is worth all the humiliation this kid suffers for doing such a stupid thing. The KID may never see it that way. But he will be alive to not see it, and that may be enough.
There is still zero evidence that he had a single drink. There is also no evidence that there had ever been a problem with the boy before.


If he had been responsible, he would have said to his friend "No alcohol in my car. Dump it out and throw it away or walk home, buddy." That was the rule. Not "no alcohol of yours, but if a friend happens to have some, well, that is ok" but rather "no alcohol at all". Rather cut and dried.
How is that responsible? Yes, it follows the rule. That doesn't make it the responsible choice.
Dump the booze or fend for yourself...so, rather than making mom angry, I'm supposed to leave someone in a dangerous situation? How is that responsible? Cut and dry rules are spectacular untill there is a sudden shade of grey...The rule says no, but logic and responsibility say yes...So do I keep my car and risk not helping a friend who needs it, or do I lose my car because I did the right thing? Is it worth standing and screaming "dump the booze" (something few people would do...most would pound it instead, which adds another risk) till I'm blue in the face, or do I just get them home?

And if the kid is stupid enough to get into a car with someone else who has been drinking as the driver, then the possibility is fairly strong that he was NOT all that sober and responsible on his own.
Or is left with few other choices...walk home or catch a ride...great options. Both equally dangerous, given the fact that there are known drunks on the road.
And what about those who he would have driven? Maybe they aren't as responsible, and, even tho our newsboy figures something else out, his friends are stranded.
All in all, it is a very strong way to drive the point home, but it is better than driving the kid, his friends, and innocent strangers away in a hearse. Much better!
I remain unconvinced that this punishment would save a single person. I actually see greater risk

(speaking very quietly right now) What would you say constituted an "incredible emergency with no other options" where driving drunk was ok and you did it?





I had a much longer reply to your post, but this is the absolutely most important question.A kid was stabbed at the party I was at (very long story with this one). It would have taken minimum 10 minutes for an ambulance to get to where we were, and another 10 to a hospital. So I drove him instead. He would have likely have died en route to the hospital had we waited.
And while it would have been a DUI for my age (19, almost 20), I would have still been in the sober limits for the state had I been of legal age

And his mobility. He's 19, which leads me to believe one of two things: he has a job or is in school. Is mom really going to be able to drive him to classes or work?
At 19 I had a job, was in college, had no car and walked or rode a bus. I have no pity for him on this count.

I see no reason to assume anything about him paying or not paying insurance. Yes, it was generous of his parents to buy him the car...very generous in fact. And if they paid his insurance, even more so. However, with a 19 year old, it isn't generally something that is just to bum around town and go to parties...
It isn't? But if the concern is about drunk driving, or alcohol in the car, this is not likely to be an issue that came up on his way to work or school.

Likely yes. I bet that he'll also resent her for a good long time. Perhaps not her primary concern, but has some pretty big implications.It is not a parent's job to be a kid's best friend. It is not a parent's job to be liked all the time. It is a parent's job to teach the hard lessons in a way that makes sure the kid learns them. No matter how much he may resent it, this kid learned this lesson.

Personally, I would not accept anything from my parents following that for fear that it would then be used as a way to humiliate me. Perhaps that's a good thing...I don't think a bottle of booze is worth that kinda damage to family ties.
Then you are the kind of kid who, as a parent, I would not have given a car to in the first place, because you obviously don't get the lesson here.

This section tied into the next paragraph. Again, can you honestly say that you are constantly aware of every item in your car? Your friend brings a backpack, do you demand that they show you the contents? As a driver, one is responsible for everything in their vehicle. Your friend happens to bring something illegal into the car, and you're pegged. Yes, you broke a law by allowing it into your car...but did you even know you broke that law?Ignorance of the law is NEVER a valid defense. You would be laughed at openly if you tried to use it in court.

And if a friend of mine had snuck something illegal into my car, that would make them no friend of mine.


No evidence that he just got his licence...just this particular car.
But even then, I once again state that he might not have been aware of it. My parents knew what I did, and so things found in my car could easily be assumed mine. They weren't, but could be assumed to be. My friends generally respected my car rules, as I was their ride, but things still happen. A beer rolls out of a backpack...a bag of weed slips out of someones pocket and into the seat...it happens.

Very weak as defenses go, and not terribly supportable. And not at all obvious from the story. He seemed to freely admit that it belonged to a friend, not to be denying any knowledge of how it got there.

And his mobility. He's 19, which leads me to believe one of two things: he has a job or is in school. Is mom really going to be able to drive him to classes or work?he had the car for 3 weeks. I think he'd be back doing whatever he had to do to get around... so yes, mom probably drove him.
I see no reason to assume anything about him paying or not paying insurance. Yes, it was generous of his parents to buy him the car...very generous in fact. And if they paid his insurance, even more so. However, with a 19 year old, it isn't generally something that is just to bum around town and go to parties... 19 would either be finishing high school, starting college or starting a job. I doubt he would have enough saved up to pay for the insurance. but I did say Probably not because he actually might have some money saved up from 3 yrs of part time jobs.

Likely yes. I bet that he'll also resent her for a good long time. Perhaps not her primary concern, but has some pretty big implications. Personally, I would not accept anything from my parents following that for fear that it would then be used as a way to humiliate me. Perhaps that's a good thing...I don't think a bottle of booze is worth that kinda damage to family ties. that's your choice to feel that way. and if your family ties would be damaged by that, it really doesn't say much about the status of the ties at that point.

This section tied into the next paragraph. Again, can you honestly say that you are constantly aware of every item in your car? yes.
Your friend brings a backpack, do you demand that they show you the contents? I don't need to know what's in the backpack, but I would know if they left their backpack in my car.

If I had such rules (and I do, no drinking of alcohol and no smoking) I would make damn sure my friends know about those rules (they do and they follow them.)

As a driver, one is responsible for everything in their vehicle. Your friend happens to bring something illegal into the car, and you're pegged. Yes, you broke a law by allowing it into your car...but did you even know you broke that law?if, for some far fetched reason, my friend brings something illegal in the car without telling me? then I hang him out to dry in front of the cops. if he tells me, then I am also guilty because I knew about it.

No evidence that he just got his licence...just this particular car. and I didn't say HE just got his licence. I said when *I* just got MY licence. :p
But even then, I once again state that he might not have been aware of it. My parents knew what I did, and so things found in my car could easily be assumed mine. They weren't, but could be assumed to be. My friends generally respected my car rules, as I was their ride, but things still happen. A beer rolls out of a backpack...a bag of weed slips out of someones pocket and into the seat...it happens. she had two rules. NO alcohol and keep the doors locked.

I know everything in my car and I do check after dropping people off, to make sure they didn't leave anything behind. so yes, I would've found the alcohol and weed in your example.

Read the article. she believes him when he said it wasn't his. but the fact is he still broke the rule and got caught.

FUCK NO!

But this does bring in the question of property rights. He is 19, that car is legally his, not his mom's (Well, in British Columbia that would be the case). Where I live, this is a case of auto-theft.

And since the article doesn't state either way, I am reserving my judgment. If it was her car, then she was absolutely right; her car, her choice. If not... well, then the law has to step in since she had no right to sell her son's car.

It also makes it extremely difficult to drive sober.

And?

There is still zero evidence that he had a single drink. There is also no evidence that there had ever been a problem with the boy before.

That is not at all the issue... this is not about whether or not the boy was drinking, but whether or not for any reason! there was alcohol in the car, which there was.

How is that responsible? Yes, it follows the rule. That doesn't make it the responsible choice.
Dump the booze or fend for yourself...so, rather than making mom angry, I'm supposed to leave someone in a dangerous situation? How is that responsible? Cut and dry rules are spectacular untill there is a sudden shade of grey...The rule says no, but logic and responsibility say yes...So do I keep my car and risk not helping a friend who needs it, or do I lose my car because I did the right thing? Is it worth standing and screaming "dump the booze" (something few people would do...most would pound it instead, which adds another risk) till I'm blue in the face, or do I just get them home?

If it is so dangerous, and everyone is responsible (as you insist) then a few bucks in booze is easier to toss away than ones life. Dangerous alternatives are not the boys responsibility, following his parents rules is, if he was so concerned about his friend, then he should be willing to take responsibility for breaking the rules.

Or is left with few other choices...walk home or catch a ride...great options. Both equally dangerous, given the fact that there are known drunks on the road.
And what about those who he would have driven? Maybe they aren't as responsible, and, even tho our newsboy figures something else out, his friends are stranded.

If walking home is dangerous because of other drunks on the road, is not accepting a ride just as unsafe? Perhaps there are roads that can sense alcohol levels and only allow sober people onto them to ensure the safety of the sober? No, there aren't... both options are 'equally' dangerous. Besides, the passenger would've had the choice of dropping a few bucks in booze in exchange for increased safety (apprently?), that would be his choice.

I remain unconvinced that this punishment would save a single person. I actually see greater risk

Well it's a good thing that your opinon does not seem to matter to this righteous mother.

It also makes it extremely difficult to drive sober.
Which is the consequence of breaking the extremely serious rule.

There is still zero evidence that he had a single drink. There is also no evidence that there had ever been a problem with the boy before.
I think it unlikely that a mother would go to that extreme entirely out of the blue, but, for argument's sake, even if she did, he broke the rules, which, again, did not say "it is ok for you to have alcohol in the car if you are not the one drinking it" but DID say "no alcohol". So it doesn't matter if he was drinking himself this particular time, the point still needed making, so she made it.



How is that responsible? Yes, it follows the rule. That doesn't make it the responsible choice.
Dump the booze or fend for yourself...so, rather than making mom angry, I'm supposed to leave someone in a dangerous situation? How is that responsible? Cut and dry rules are spectacular untill there is a sudden shade of grey...The rule says no, but logic and responsibility say yes...So do I keep my car and risk not helping a friend who needs it, or do I lose my car because I did the right thing? Is it worth standing and screaming "dump the booze" (something few people would do...most would pound it instead, which adds another risk) till I'm blue in the face, or do I just get them home?
Or do you leave them standing there outside your parked car until they get tired of the idea of walking and dump it and then drive them home? Or do you call their mother on your cell phone and say "Your kid is standing here on the corner of Smith and Main and needs a ride home?" Or do you call him a cab? Or do you give him bus fare? Or do you follow him home slowly as he walks to make sure he gets there safely? Or do you call your mom, explain the problem, and ask HER to come out and pick him up rather than let him bring alcohol into your car, which she would probably rather do to protect you? Or do you ask her if it is OK to put any alcohol that your friend might carry in the trunk? Or do you say to your friend "Hey, friend, my mother will take away this very nice car, and you and I will BOTH have to walk from now on if we break this very simple rule, so stop being an idiot, put the bottle down and get in the car so we can go?" There are always options. To say the only possible choice is to let open alcohol into your car is irresponsible.


Or is left with few other choices...walk home or catch a ride...great options. Both equally dangerous, given the fact that there are known drunks on the road.
And what about those who he would have driven? Maybe they aren't as responsible, and, even tho our newsboy figures something else out, his friends are stranded.

I remain unconvinced that this punishment would save a single person. I actually see greater risk
I never once drove drunk in my life. I got trashed at a party when I was in high school, and I had the car. I also knew that drinking and driving were not the way to go. So at 3 in the morning I called Mom, who came in her ratty old pajamas to get me, then went in to the party and said to all my friends "Who else drove tonight?" She stood there and collected everybody's keys, drove everybody home, then gave them their keys back. Everybody felt like idiots for a while, but not one person from that group ever drove drunk from that day until at least when we all went our separate ways. Yes, we were all embarrassed that a mother had to drive us home. But the two kids in our class who WERE killed while driving drunk (about a year later) were ones who had left earlier and driven home drunk but gotten away with it. And as embarrassed as we were at the time, not one person felt bad about her actions in hindsight.

Let him get his own way to school or work, they provided a means, with restrictions, he violated said restrictions, parental generosity ceases, nor is his mother in any way obligated to cart him around anywhere, he is an adult, it is enough that they let him live there, and even were at one time willing to buy him a car.Fair enough



If it damages family ties it is his fault for not realizing that the entire situation arises from him not following reasonable rules.Placing full blame upon him is entirely unfair. He broke the rule, yes. The mother chose her reaction. Both are a component.
I remain unconvinced from the small bit of news we actually have about it.



Perhaps people should make sure that their friends are not carrying illegal items into their car... if it is their responsibility, it is their responsibility. Perhaps an easier option would be to not allow anyone into your car who might bring illegal items with them... it would at least cut down the risks.
So I either profile my friends or pat them down? Yes, I should know what is in my car at all times...but in reality, that isn't particularly feasable unless I never allow another person into my car.



Well, the driver should then make everyone aware of specific rules... if his friends don't want to respect that, it is his problem for letting them into the car... perhaps it was innocent, but there was still alcohol in the car... which is what the problem stems from... if schools ban guns because of the inherent threat of violence, they should not let people off the hook for bringing guns 'just to show friends' rules are rules....There's a difference between knowingly bringing a gun to school and someone else leaving alcohol in your car. There was alcohol in his car, yes. And that did break the rule. I don't contest this. I just find the punishment to be greater than the crime.

At 19 I had a job, was in college, had no car and walked or rode a bus. I have no pity for him on this count.That's all well and good, as I did the same. But what about areas where there are no busses, and walking is not a reasonable suggestion? In many small towns, it can be a 20 minute drive into town...
And I don't particularly have pity, perse...just a bit of compassion

It isn't? But if the concern is about drunk driving, or alcohol in the car, this is not likely to be an issue that came up on his way to work or school.Or it could be the parents being reasonable...drunk driving is a risk, they wanted to head that off. Fine. That doesn't mean there was ever a problem with this boy before.
It is not a parent's job to be a kid's best friend. It is not a parent's job to be liked all the time. It is a parent's job to teach the hard lessons in a way that makes sure the kid learns them. No matter how much he may resent it, this kid learned this lesson.Adult, legally. Not kid.
But even accepting your argument (which I generally do), the lesson might not be entirely positive in its implications.


Then you are the kind of kid who, as a parent, I would not have given a car to in the first place, because you obviously don't get the lesson here.There's more grey area than you accept. I understand the lesson just fine. I argue that the punishment did not fit the crime.
Ignorance of the law is NEVER a valid defense. You would be laughed at openly if you tried to use it in court.I didn't say a word about ignorance of the law.

And if a friend of mine had snuck something illegal into my car, that would make them no friend of mine.Fair enough.



Very weak as defenses go, and not terribly supportable. And not at all obvious from the story. He seemed to freely admit that it belonged to a friend, not to be denying any knowledge of how it got there.HE didn't say a word in the article. Which is a major part of what I'm saying. We have very little to go on beyond what the mother said. We have nothing about the boy aside the fact that he broke a rule and is unhappy about it, both according to his mother.

he had the car for 3 weeks. I think he'd be back doing whatever he had to do to get around... so yes, mom probably drove him.
19 would either be finishing high school, starting college or starting a job. I doubt he would have enough saved up to pay for the insurance. but I did say Probably not because he actually might have some money saved up from 3 yrs of part time jobs.
Most of my friends payed their own insurance in high school through after school jobs.
that's your choice to feel that way. and if your family ties would be damaged by that, it really doesn't say much about the status of the ties at that point. I dont think it is too much to ask for mutual respect...I respect my parents, I expect the same from me. Breaking a rule is no excuse for that kind of disprespect out of anyone, particularly those who love me.
Has very little to do with my family ties, and alot to do with what I expect out of people. Basic dignity is one of those.

yes.
I don't need to know what's in the backpack, but I would know if they left their backpack in my car.Which could easily be the case. I've had someones backpack in my trunk for a month before, never really noticing it.

If I had such rules (and I do, no drinking of alcohol and no smoking) I would make damn sure my friends know about those rules (they do and they follow them.)Same with my friends. I can't say that for everyone. Perhaps one of the friends didn't want to ditch their booze and brought it along anyway.

if, for some far fetched reason, my friend brings something illegal in the car without telling me? then I hang him out to dry in front of the cops. if he tells me, then I am also guilty because I knew about it.With alcohol, I'd protect them. Something with more vicious penalties, I'd have to think about.

I know everything in my car and I do check after dropping people off, to make sure they didn't leave anything behind. so yes, I would've found the alcohol and weed in your example. I didn't. And I probably still wouldnt, since I just found a necklace and haven't driven anyone in months...

Read the article. she believes him when he said it wasn't his. but the fact is he still broke the rule and got caught.She says she believes him. I don't think her actions match her words.

And?
Sober driver=good.
Assuming he was the sober driver, he now has no car, leaving four other people potentially without a sober ride.


That is not at all the issue... this is not about whether or not the boy was drinking, but whether or not for any reason! there was alcohol in the car, which there was.I don't contect that. I contest that there is a grey area that needs to be considered, which means that the punishment was possibly too harsh.



If it is so dangerous, and everyone is responsible (as you insist)I don't insist that a single person is responsible. I'm willing to give this boy the benefit of the doubt for two reasons
a) the sake of argument and b) lack of evidence to the contrary.

then a few bucks in booze is easier to toss away than ones life. Dangerous alternatives are not the boys responsibility, following his parents rules is, if he was so concerned about his friend, then he should be willing to take responsibility for breaking the rules.So for being a decent person and potentially saving a life, he should be punished? Grey area is a bitch, but unfortunatly, nothing is as cut and dry as you seem to be making it. No, the boy is not responsible for his friends decisions...but which is better..."I drove my friends home and they left some alcohol in my car" or "I refused to drive my friends home because they had alcohol, and now they're dead".




If walking home is dangerous because of other drunks on the road, is not accepting a ride just as unsafe?People are difficult to see, and difficult to predict, particularly when they are drunk. Perhaps there are roads that can sense alcohol levels and only allow sober people onto them to ensure the safety of the sober? No, there aren't... both options are 'equally' dangerous. Besides, the passenger would've had the choice of dropping a few bucks in booze in exchange for increased safety (apprently?), that would be his choice.His choice, yes. And have drunks ever been known for making good choices?



Well it's a good thing that your opinon does not seem to matter to this righteous mother.

It would seem, unfortunatly, that yours does however.

NOTE: not an insult to you, but to the woman.

Which is the consequence of breaking the extremely serious rule.
Once again, that is a statement to having another sober driver around, not for other moments of driving.

I think it unlikely that a mother would go to that extreme entirely out of the blue, but, for argument's sake, even if she did, he broke the rules, which, again, did not say "it is ok for you to have alcohol in the car if you are not the one drinking it" but DID say "no alcohol". So it doesn't matter if he was drinking himself this particular time, the point still needed making, so she made it.Yes, she made her point. Say she had a rabbit to kill: she could have used an arrow. She chose the cannon.


Or do you leave them standing there outside your parked car until they get tired of the idea of walking and dump it and then drive them home? Or do you call their mother on your cell phone and say "Your kid is standing here on the corner of Smith and Main and needs a ride home?" Or do you call him a cab? Or do you give him bus fare? Or do you follow him home slowly as he walks to make sure he gets there safely? Or do you call your mom, explain the problem, and ask HER to come out and pick him up rather than let him bring alcohol into your car, which she would probably rather do to protect you? Or do you ask her if it is OK to put any alcohol that your friend might carry in the trunk? Or do you say to your friend "Hey, friend, my mother will take away this very nice car, and you and I will BOTH have to walk from now on if we break this very simple rule, so stop being an idiot, put the bottle down and get in the car so we can go?" There are always options. To say the only possible choice is to let open alcohol into your car is irresponsible.I don't deny other options of various degrees of appeal. What I do say is that several are not logical or feasable (yes, let's follow the kid while he walks, but not let him in the car). The rule was stated as black and white. Life, sadly, is not. Yes, the mother chose the hard line, as was her right. I just disagree.


I never once drove drunk in my life. I got trashed at a party when I was in high school, and I had the car. I also knew that drinking and driving were not the way to go. So at 3 in the morning I called Mom, who came in her ratty old pajamas to get me, then went in to the party and said to all my friends "Who else drove tonight?" She stood there and collected everybody's keys, drove everybody home, then gave them their keys back. Everybody felt like idiots for a while, but not one person from that group ever drove drunk from that day until at least when we all went our separate ways. Yes, we were all embarrassed that a mother had to drive us home. But the two kids in our class who WERE killed while driving drunk (about a year later) were ones who had left earlier and driven home drunk but gotten away with it. And as embarrassed as we were at the time, not one person felt bad about her actions in hindsight.
I usually slept there or got a ride from one of two other people I actually trusted to stay sober

A kid was stabbed at the party I was at (very long story with this one). It would have taken minimum 10 minutes for an ambulance to get to where we were, and another 10 to a hospital. So I drove him instead. He would have likely have died en route to the hospital had we waited.
And while it would have been a DUI for my age (19, almost 20), I would have still been in the sober limits for the state had I been of legal age

And not one other single person at this party was sober to drive? And you didn't think that perhaps in the 10 minutes he was IN the ambulance they could have been taking care of him, not to mention the very great danger in moving someone who is that seriously injured? And it didn't occur to you that perhaps if you had called the police they might have been able to get there faster than an ambulance and drive for you? And there was no neighbor anywhere nearby who had not been drinking? And you, having been drinking, were still clear enough to actually think any of this through? Or did you, in a slightly fuzzy panic, throw this kid in your car, tear out of there and get lucky, and then justify it after the fact with "see, it worked out, and he would have died!"

Sorry. You don't win on this one. It may have worked out that time, but it was a monumentally stupid choice. Again, there were too many other options rather than you driving drunk. I am glad you saved your friend, but I cannot applaud the way you did it. And, to be completely clear about this, I am not interested in hearing all of the justifications you may have for why this was the only possible solution to the problem, because for every one you have, I can certainly provide several alternate possibilities that would not have put you, your friend, anyone else in the car, and everyone else on the road at risk from your choice.

Frankly, DUI is a limit that the state imposes because they have to have some sort of a line. In my opinion, if you are close to within range of the limit, regardless of age and legality, you are not safe to drive. And you should know that. If your parents did not teach you that, I am sorry, but this is one instance where the letter of the law should not be your only guide. And were I your parent, finding out that you were under age and drinking (which you also mentioned in an earlier post), I would certainly take away your driving privileges because you are not responsible enough to have them.

Once again, that is a statement to having another sober driver around, not for other moments of driving.

Yes, she made her point. Say she had a rabbit to kill: she could have used an arrow. She chose the cannon.


I don't deny other options of various degrees of appeal. What I do say is that several are not logical or feasable (yes, let's follow the kid while he walks, but not let him in the car). The rule was stated as black and white. Life, sadly, is not. Yes, the mother chose the hard line, as was her right. I just disagree.



I usually slept there or got a ride from one of two other people I actually trusted to stay sober

All in all, we seem to be agreeing on the basic idea of punishing the crime, but not agreeing that this punishment necessarily fits this crime. I will agree with you that there is not enough evidence to fully support your case or mine. But I will stay on this side of the line in saying that I don't think this punishment is as horrible as you do, and I can very much see how effective it can be. If it turns out that your version is right, that it was basically a first time innocent mistake and he didn't realize that the alcohol was there, then yes, her response may be a little harsh, but playing the percentages I have to guess that it is not as sweet and light as all that. And if the kid (yes, 19, but behaving like a kid, living at home, not able to follow simple rules... he still qualifies as a kid in my eyes) had given her any reason to worry in the past, whether by drinking or other irresponsible behavior and not following rules, then no, she is in the right to do what she feels she must that will get through to him.

So let us agree to sort of disagree? And looking at the problem from the opposite end of a number of years (I am in the "mother" range of age, you are, most likely, closer to the "kid" range, I am guessing?) has also colored our perceptions as well. And sometimes what makes the kid unhappy is actually the best thing for him, but if you don't see that now, you will when you become a "mother" aged person. :)

And not one other single person at this party was sober to drive?2 AM. Sober rides had already left.
And you didn't think that perhaps in the 10 minutes he was IN the ambulance they could have been taking care of him, not to mention the very great danger in moving someone who is that seriously injured?Trained EMT in my car that, while intoxicated, was able to care for him while I drove.

And it didn't occur to you that perhaps if you had called the police they might have been able to get there faster than an ambulance and drive for you?Not likely given the area we were in, tho potentially, yes.
For the record, cops were appearently called, and, from what I was told, did not arrive untill after we had already made it to the hospital.
And there was no neighbor anywhere nearby who had not been drinking?
Again, given the area, no.

And you, having been drinking, were still clear enough to actually think any of this through?Actually, yes. I was quite lucid.
Or did you, in a slightly fuzzy panic,
Generally, deep cuts to the throat do lead to some level of panic, yes. Fuzzy, no.

throw this kid in your car, tear out of there and get lucky, and then justify it after the fact with "see, it worked out, and he would have died!"Yes, he would have died. Actually. Cops agreed on that. It wasn't particularly luck either...more a ratio of time vs. blood loss.

Four beers is not particularly alot. If I drank them over an hour, I would be around .09. Given the fact that I didn't pound them right before I drove, and had them over the course of 2 hours, my actual BAC, tho unrecorded, was much lower than .09

Sorry. You don't win on this one. Or you don't have the entire story.
It may have worked out that time, but it was a monumentally stupid choice.I don't deny that it wasn't the safest choice. It was, however, the one that worked. Risk vs benefit. I made that choice pretty quickly.

Again, there were too many other options rather than you driving drunk.Legally drunk. But then, I could have taken a swig of mouthwash and have been legally drunk at that age (.02) I am glad you saved your friendNot friend, to clarify.
but I cannot applaud the way you did it.
Nor do I expect you to.
And, to be completely clear about this, I am not interested in hearing all of the justifications you may have for why this was the only possible solution to the problem, because for every one you have, I can certainly provide several alternate possibilities that would not have put you, your friend, anyone else in the car, and everyone else on the road at risk from your choice. Nor do I plan to explain it. Because frankly, I don't care enough to. I made my choice, and I stand by it to this day.

Frankly, DUI is a limit that the state imposes because they have to have some sort of a line. In my opinion, if you are close to within range of the limit, regardless of age and legality, you are not safe to drive. As I said, .09 was the highest I could have been. I was likely lower.
And you should know that.
Yes, I'm not an idiot.
If your parents did not teach you that, I am sorry, but this is one instance where the letter of the law should not be your only guide. Did I say they were? Amazing...someone bleeds from the throat, and suddenly, things are different. I understood and considered the risk, and determined that I couldn't let a kid bleed to death because of a stupid choice in his part.
And were I your parent, finding out that you were under age and drinking (which you also mentioned in an earlier post), I would certainly take away your driving privileges because you are not responsible enough to have them.That is both insulting and laughable.
My parents knew I didn't drive drunk save this one event. You don't need to know how they knew this, but they did.
Additionally, I was 19 going on 20. I was legally an adult. My parents had no authority to "take away" my driving privileges.

You can lecture me all you want about how I had other options and things could have been handled other ways. I've heard them all, dozens of times. I knew my options. Interestingly, the cops backed me...hence why they did not breathalyze me or charge me. Did I have the time to sit down and make a list of them as you have the luxury of doing? No. Hindsight is 20/20 for a reason. A kid was stabbed. We knew the distances around town, and knew he wouldn't make it. We also knew the time and nature of the town. Were there risks? Yes. I'm not a child, nor am I an idiot. At the time, I did what was right, and stand by it to this moment. Not because it happened to work out, but because I did what I needed to.

As I stated when I responded to your question, it was quite a long story which I have no desire to tell here. Perhaps something more or different could be done. You, however, are in no position to say so as you have all of 100 characters to base your knowledge of the event upon.

Interestingly, drinking ages are just as arbitrary as drunk driving limits. If anything, drunk driving limits err on the side of low, and drinking ages on the side of high, particularly in the US

Honestly, you've assumed quite a bit about me, my character, and my maturity. As I stated when I responded to your question, it was quite a long story which I have no desire to tell here. You've made several assumptions and judgements that I am not a personal fan of. Your right and perogative, but I figure I might as well let it be known that I don't particularly appreciate them. Perhaps something more or different could be done. You, however, are in no position to say so as you have all of 100 characters to base your knowledge of the event upon.

Fair enough. And we are both in the same place about this kid and his mother.

I was not intending to be insulting to you, and I am sorry if you took it that way, but the story you related was that you were over the legal limit and chose to drive anyway. The circumstances not withstanding, it is easy to make armchair judgements about what is right and what is not, and we are both trying to do that with the choice this mother made about selling the car and placing an ad. Your story looks one way to you, and another to me, so we DO have different reactions, as we do about the OP.

MY reasons for coming down harshly on anyone who drives for any reason while anywhere near the limit? One of the people in the OTHER car that those two kids killed was my boyfriend. And the kids were not legally drunk, as the legal age was still 19 then and they both tested just under the limit. But they were impaired, were joyridding for no reason, killed themselves (which does not always happen... in a drunk driving accident involving multiple vehicles, the drunk driver is the one more likely to walk away from it, as I understand), killed my boyfriend and his mother, seriously injured his father and scarred his little sister's face (shredded it, really, with flying glass) so badly that even plastic surgery will never be able to completely hide the scars. And what broke me up the most at the time was that I was supposed to have been with them, but I got a cold and couldn't go. So I felt bad about having NOT been there too. I have reason to be harsh, I think. So forgive me for not thinking that there is ever a good reason to drive drunk.

Sorry, that is not a story I often tell.

Depends who was the legal owner of the car, if she owned it - legal. If he owned it then she's just committed theft and more.

Well, if she owned the car I can't act like it's not her right to sell it, cause it is.

But seriously, everyone drinks at age 19, it's not a huge deal at all.

Fair enough. And we are both in the same place about this kid and his mother.

I was not intending to be insulting to you, and I am sorry if you took it that way, but the story you related was that you were over the legal limit and chose to drive anyway. The circumstances not withstanding, it is easy to make armchair judgements about what is right and what is not, and we are both trying to do that with the choice this mother made about selling the car and placing an ad. Your story looks one way to you, and another to me, so we DO have different reactions, as we do about the OP.Actually, don't apologise. I'm a taaaaaaaad it touchy tonight, it would seem. Damn stress.:(
Anyway, if anything I owe you one...you didn't make any baseless claims or assumptions that are unreasonable, so no reason for me to get offended.

MY reasons for coming down harshly on anyone who drives for any reason while anywhere near the limit? One of the people in the OTHER car that those two kids killed was my boyfriend. And the kids were not legally drunk, as the legal age was still 19 then and they both tested just under the limit. But they were impaired, were joyridding for no reason, killed themselves (which does not always happen... in a drunk driving accident involving multiple vehicles, the drunk driver is the one more likely to walk away from it, as I understand), killed my boyfriend and his mother, seriously injured his father and scarred his little sister's face (shredded it, really, with flying glass) so badly that even plastic surgery will never be able to completely hide the scars. And what broke me up the most at the time was that I was supposed to have been with them, but I got a cold and couldn't go. So I felt bad about having NOT been there too. I have reason to be harsh, I think. So forgive me for not thinking that there is ever a good reason to drive drunk.Oh, trust me, I understand. I've had similar experiences (no death, but about as close as one gets, among other incidents). Like I said, my parents trusted me for a reason. That reason was that I never gave them a reason not to.

Sorry, that is not a story I often tell.
Glad you did. Mine are considerably less impactful. I dont disagree that there is almost no reason to drink and drive (I'm wary to drive with even a beer or two in my system). There are those times that I am willing to, but, like I said, they are pretty major circumstances...
I am sorry for your loss, as well as sorry for being a bit touchy. You can ask Junii...I'm usually a bit more relaxed in debates...and I was even a little short with him at times.

Sarky needs a good long nap. :(

Me too... you caught me on an issue that I get emotional about... I don't usually get this "shame on you!" lecture-y about stuff even if I feel passionate about it.

Well, anyway, I am glad you are careful, and wish that everybody were!

And have a good night, I am out of here to catch some sleep myself.

haha...I've seen you debate before, so it kinda caught me off guard. I also didn't realize you were a girl before....

*shrug*

Sarky needs a good long nap. :(

Me too... you caught me on an issue that I get emotional about... I don't usually get this "shame on you!" lecture-y about stuff even if I feel passionate about it.

Well, anyway, I am glad you are careful, and wish that everybody were!

And have a good night, I am out of here to catch some sleep myself.

I think the Son should ether A) sell his mom's car, for being a bitch, or B) buy a Car, and using to smash the front of the house in.

Let's see 3000 dollars will cover THAT bill.


But, TBH, the punishment doesn't fit the crime; if anything, there seems to be a increase of these over reactions among parents.

Amazing my parents did not have to hit me nor sell my stuff

And they are about as hard ass old farmer RC parents there are on the planet ... I have been resentfull of some of their decisions over the years but if people really think that this sort of crap or hitting your parents is NESSISARY to be a good parent they were even better then I thought they were at being parents

No need to break my stuff
No need to hit me
No need to publicly humiliate me

They just had the right attitude and some good hard work as punishment, and that was few and far between.

Unfortunately, not every child can grasp that sort of punishment. I've seen it in many families where the discipline is the same for all children. Some turn out fine, some go wild. Sometimes, you have to be a little creative to get your message across.

FUCK NO!

But this does bring in the question of property rights. He is 19, that car is legally his, not his mom's (Well, in British Columbia that would be the case). Where I live, this is a case of auto-theft.

Even if she bought it and her name is on the title? Interesting.

I think it's rather dumb that she says she believes him when he says it was a passenger who left the booze, but sold the car anyways. Although it's even dumber that she probably sold it for much less than she bought it.

I think the Son should ether A) sell his mom's car, for being a bitch, or B) buy a Car, and using to smash the front of the house in.

Let's see 3000 dollars will cover THAT bill.


But, TBH, the punishment doesn't fit the crime; if anything, there seems to be a increase of these over reactions among parents.

Because they don't overreact over having to bury their child, see them as a paraplegic, or know they murdered someone with the 2000 pound weapon they bought them...

I think the Son should ether A) sell his mom's car, for being a bitch,http://www.billp.com/blog/images/gotojail.gif

B) buy a Car, and using to smash the front of the house in.http://www.billp.com/blog/images/gotojail.gif

:D

But this does bring in the question of property rights. He is 19, that car is legally his, not his mom's There is 2 ways to sell a car.

#1 You steal it and sell it.
#2 Its yours and you sell it.

I bet its #2.