NationStates Jolt Archive

In the spirit of the "sister" thread asking what Christians would do if Jesus were demonstrably proven to not have existed, I present the following scneario:

You wake up one morning and get out of bed, mouth tasting like carpet and your neck aching from that crummy old pillow you've been meaning to replace since back when there was only one Battlestar Galactica and the most controversial thing to come out of the White House was the fate of a conspicuous blue dress. You stumble out into the kitchen to get the cofeemaker going and you absently hit the 'power' button on your TV remote, wishing for the umpteenth time you'd gotten more than just the basic cable package so you could be watching something worthwhile, other than the network newscast.

At first, you don't notice that there's a press conference on, so you pour your cup of coffee and start debating on whether you can get away with wearing the same pair of pants as yesterday, laundry being tomorrow. Eventually you look at the TV and there's some Government official, making the announcement "Ladies and Gentlemen of the World... We have just learned that Jesus of Nazareth, the actual Son of God and the Christ has returned to the Earth, and would like to make a statement." You dig into your ear to be sure you heard right as the mike is turned over to a fellow with a beard and long brown hair, who clears his throat and begins to speak. You don't even hear the sound of your coffee mug crashing to the floor, fallen from your stunned fingers.

So? To you folks who aren't Christian... (and assuming there is no question of the identity of the individual goving the press conference)

What do you do?

In the spirit of the "sister" thread asking what Christians would do if Jesus were demonstrably proven to not have existed, I present the following scneario:

You wake up one morning and get out of bed, mouth tasting like carpet and your neck aching from that crummy old pillow you've been meaning to replace since back when there was only one Battlestar Galactica and the most controversial thing to come out of the White House was the fate of a conspicuous blue dress. You stumble out into the kitchen to get the cofeemaker going and you absently hit the 'power' button on your TV remote, wishing for the umpteenth time you'd gotten more than just the basic cable package so you could be watching something worthwhile, other than the network newscast.

At first, you don't notice that there's a press conference on, so you pour your cup of coffee and start debating on whether you can get away with wearing the same pair of pants as yesterday, laundry being tomorrow. Eventually you look at the TV and there's some Government official, making the announcement "Ladies and Gentlemen of the World... We have just learned that Jesus of Nazareth, the actual Son of God and the Christ has returned to the Earth, and would like to make a statement." You dig into your ear to be sure you heard right as the mike is turned over to a fellow with a beard and long brown hair, who clears his throat and begins to speak. You don't even hear the sound of your coffee mug crashing to the floor, fallen from your stunned fingers.

So? To you folks who aren't Christian... (and assuming there is no question of the identity of the individual goving the press conference)

What do you do?

Heh aldepends on what he has to say. I mean according to the Church by that time it is already too late to repent. I'd wait and hear whether than comes form the big mans mouth or not.

Accordingly then I would hit the floor and start the preying like the sinner I am, or go meh and wonder out to the pub for one last pint and a game of pool.

*snip*

I would still refuse to follow someone who tells me that loving him/his father is the only way to reach some kind of heavenly afterlife.

I'd be forced by the evidence to believe if that were the case, but I would be strongly against that kind of demagoguery and would refuse to follow.

I care not for the consequences and I think it would be cowardly to do so.

Easy to say I know, but it would really piss me off to have my life be about that.

faint because Jesus looks like he did in that velvet painting at G-ma and P-pa's house. :eek:

I suppose I'd have to hear what the man himself had to say about his thoughts on (previously) nonbelievers before I did anything.

So? To you folks who aren't Christian... (and assuming there is no question of the identity of the individual goving the press conference)

What do you do?
I listen to what this individual has to say.

Your premise is a little dodgy, though. You are asking me to assume that "there is no question of the identity of the individual". What is the nature of the evidence available that encourages me to assume that this is the case?



(Edit: "You don't even hear the sound of your coffee mug crashing to the floor, fallen from your stunned fingers."... I never drop my morning coffee- it's far too important to me :p)

Jesus: "I told you I'd be back. First of all, let me set a few things straight: First, I don't care who you have sex with. Second, How the fuck did a church dedicated to me become the richest organization on the planet? Apparently some of you missed the point. Third, I was never in Tulsa, Oklahoma and I sure as hell wasn't 900 feet tall."

:)

Listen to what Jesus has to say. After all, it could be that this is not Jesus, but the Messiah. If it turns out to be the Messiah, cue dancing in the streets.

I've seen many Jesus Christs over the years, so I'll continue doing what I've always done: ignore them all and carry on with my life, messiah free.

...laugh at the fools who don't realize that jesus already returned a dozen times or so?

In the spirit of the "sister" thread asking what Christians would do if Jesus were demonstrably proven to not have existed, I present the following scneario:

You wake up one morning and get out of bed, mouth tasting like carpet and your neck aching from that crummy old pillow you've been meaning to replace since back when there was only one Battlestar Galactica and the most controversial thing to come out of the White House was the fate of a conspicuous blue dress. You stumble out into the kitchen to get the cofeemaker going and you absently hit the 'power' button on your TV remote, wishing for the umpteenth time you'd gotten more than just the basic cable package so you could be watching something worthwhile, other than the network newscast.

At first, you don't notice that there's a press conference on, so you pour your cup of coffee and start debating on whether you can get away with wearing the same pair of pants as yesterday, laundry being tomorrow. Eventually you look at the TV and there's some Government official, making the announcement "Ladies and Gentlemen of the World... We have just learned that Jesus of Nazareth, the actual Son of God and the Christ has returned to the Earth, and would like to make a statement." You dig into your ear to be sure you heard right as the mike is turned over to a fellow with a beard and long brown hair, who clears his throat and begins to speak. You don't even hear the sound of your coffee mug crashing to the floor, fallen from your stunned fingers.

So? To you folks who aren't Christian... (and assuming there is no question of the identity of the individual goving the press conference)

What do you do?

Honestly? Shrug my shoulders and continue with my life.
I'm agnostic in the sense that I don't care if there is a god or not. I don't see evidence that there is a god. If there is evidence, I'll accept it as reality, but it wouldn't have any impact on my life. I would probably ask him a good few questions, though, regarding his behaviour.

In the spirit of the "sister" thread asking what Christians would do if Jesus were demonstrably proven to not have existed, I present the following scneario:

You wake up one morning and get out of bed, mouth tasting like carpet and your neck aching from that crummy old pillow you've been meaning to replace since back when there was only one Battlestar Galactica and the most controversial thing to come out of the White House was the fate of a conspicuous blue dress. You stumble out into the kitchen to get the cofeemaker going and you absently hit the 'power' button on your TV remote, wishing for the umpteenth time you'd gotten more than just the basic cable package so you could be watching something worthwhile, other than the network newscast.

At first, you don't notice that there's a press conference on, so you pour your cup of coffee and start debating on whether you can get away with wearing the same pair of pants as yesterday, laundry being tomorrow. Eventually you look at the TV and there's some Government official, making the announcement "Ladies and Gentlemen of the World... We have just learned that Jesus of Nazareth, the actual Son of God and the Christ has returned to the Earth, and would like to make a statement." You dig into your ear to be sure you heard right as the mike is turned over to a fellow with a beard and long brown hair, who clears his throat and begins to speak. You don't even hear the sound of your coffee mug crashing to the floor, fallen from your stunned fingers.

So? To you folks who aren't Christian... (and assuming there is no question of the identity of the individual goving the press conference)

What do you do?

Hear what he has to say, and then decide whether I like it or not.

I wouldn't give a damn. The only time I would remotely care is if something really, really disturbing and nonsensical started happening like the rapture. Then again, that just translates into "Apocolypse NOW! ... Oh wait, we're saved, but you aren't. LOL!"

I'd probably stay home all day, because of all the commotion that'll inevitably go on in the streets.

I listen to what this individual has to say.

Your premise is a little dodgy, though. You are asking me to assume that "there is no question of the identity of the individual". What is the nature of the evidence available that encourages me to assume that this is the case?


I raised a similar question in the 'Question for Christians' thread but in retrospect I think the base premise was meant to assume whatever evidence there was was irrefutable somehow. Same application here.


(Edit: "You don't even hear the sound of your coffee mug crashing to the floor, fallen from your stunned fingers."... I never drop my morning coffee- it's far too important to me :p)

:)

Jesus: "How the fuck did a church dedicated to me become the richest organization on the planet?"
:)

Since when is Microsoft a church dedicated to Jesus?

Since when is Microsoft a church dedicated to Jesus?

Heh. Microsoft is peanuts compared to the Roman Catholic Church. :p

<snip>

Why, what were you thinking/hoping people would say? ;)

Microsoft has made more than 51 Billion $ in 2007, and the roman catholic church doesn't charge fees in every country, the... (what is the english word for all that stuff like paintings, sculputres art objects etc?) can't be sold so it's considered worthless. So microsoft is richer than the roman catholic church.

Microsoft has made more than 51 Billion $ in 2007, and the roman catholic church doesn't charge fees in every country, the... (what is the english word for all that stuff like paintings, sculputres art objects etc?) can't be sold so it's considered worthless. So microsoft is richer than the roman catholic church.

Last available data seems to be from 2001 : http://www.zenit.org/article-1900?l=english

hey im catholic. all i would have to do is get my ass over to the church and make a quick confession and im good to go. TO HEAVEN!

hey im catholic. all i would have to do is get my ass over to the church and make a quick confession and im good to go. TO HEAVEN!yep. isn't it a blessing that the catholic church must forgive sins if you confess (and mean it).

Why, what were you thinking/hoping people would say? ;)

Honestly, I didn't have a specific idea of what I'd have wanted to hear. Mainly, if I hope for anything, it's consistency.

Honestly, I didn't have a specific idea of what I'd have wanted to hear. Mainly, if I hope for anything, it's consistency.

*lol In atheists and other non-Christians? I've given up getting consistency from the Christians here, who after all claim to be believing in the same thing. Hoping for that from everybody else can only end in disappointment ;)

What do you do?
I’d extricate myself from this ridiculous hypothetical situation.

Seriously, what’s the point of even debating such far-flung hypotheticals? The most anyone can say is, “if things were different to how they are, then my actions would be different to how they are.”

Waffle.

I'd think it was a good thing for everyone. The Christians would be happy that he had come to Rapture them and the rest of us would be happy they wouldn't be annoying us anymore.

*lol In atheists and other non-Christians? I've given up getting consistency from the Christians here, who after all claim to be believing in the same thing. Hoping for that from everybody else can only end in disappointment ;)

Well I meant individually... So many times I've seen people insist that everybody objectively see their point of view, but then adamantly refuse to look objectively at someone else's. Being that I'm relating this thread to the other one I mentioned, I'm wonderinf if people's responses on both hypotheticals will be consistent.

I'd think it was a good thing for everyone. The Christians would be happy that he had come to Rapture them and the rest of us would be happy they wouldn't be annoying us anymore.

Ditto, pretty much. Since Jesus is not associated with one of the gods I venerate, I would assume his press conference message has nothing to do with me but is applicable only to Christians. I might listen in out of curiosity, if he was a good speaker, kept it brief, and if the pundits who dissected the speech afterwards weren't too fuckheaded. Then I'd turn off the tv and go about my regular business.

Well I meant individually... So many times I've seen people insist that everybody objectively see their point of view, but then adamantly refuse to look objectively at someone else's. Being that I'm relating this thread to the other one I mentioned, I'm wonderinf if people's responses on both hypotheticals will be consistent.

I don't think I responded to that one... it was directed at Christians only, wasn't it?
Anyway, the existence or non-existence of the Christian god doesn't really make a lot of difference from me. Although, as I said, if he turns out to be real, he'll have a lot to answer for.

But he couldn't possible be Jesus/the Messiah! Because, at least the second time around (ok, actually the first time around, but Christians were never that proficient at reading and understanding Jewish scriptures), the World should have ended at once, Jerusalem should be remade from pure gold, the Temple would have to be standing on its Mount and a red Heifer would have had to be sacrificed first and ... well, anyway. There'd be lots of unmissable events that would have to happen before he'd ever have time for a bloody press conference.;)

OK, if he actually is the Messiah, I'd have to call him immediately, because we're very probably related, and he might be looking for his family. Jews are very family-oriented, you know...:fluffle:

OK, if he actually is the Messiah, I'd have to call him immediately, because we're very probably related, and he might be looking for his family. Jews are very family-oriented, you know...:fluffle:

I like you. You're alright :cool:

I'd just have to log on to NSG for the lolz

i would ask his about all the non conviensing arguements church or christianity promotes.probably.then i would ask him to make me king of the world :p

Express my scepticism on NSG in one of the resulting 'ZOMG JESUS' threads. Lots of people have claimed to be Jesus in the past, it should be interesting to see why this one gets news time and the others are dismissed as crazy.


Also, I'd harbour secret hopes that even if he isn't Jesus, he can do that water to wine trick on my local supply. :p

yep. isn't it a blessing that the catholic church must forgive sins if you confess (and mean it).

sure is

and in this specific circumstance i really would mean it.

In the spirit of the "sister" thread asking what Christians would do if Jesus were demonstrably proven to not have existed, I present the following scneario:

You wake up one morning and get out of bed, mouth tasting like carpet and your neck aching from that crummy old pillow you've been meaning to replace since back when there was only one Battlestar Galactica and the most controversial thing to come out of the White House was the fate of a conspicuous blue dress. You stumble out into the kitchen to get the cofeemaker going and you absently hit the 'power' button on your TV remote, wishing for the umpteenth time you'd gotten more than just the basic cable package so you could be watching something worthwhile, other than the network newscast.

At first, you don't notice that there's a press conference on, so you pour your cup of coffee and start debating on whether you can get away with wearing the same pair of pants as yesterday, laundry being tomorrow. Eventually you look at the TV and there's some Government official, making the announcement "Ladies and Gentlemen of the World... We have just learned that Jesus of Nazareth, the actual Son of God and the Christ has returned to the Earth, and would like to make a statement." You dig into your ear to be sure you heard right as the mike is turned over to a fellow with a beard and long brown hair, who clears his throat and begins to speak. You don't even hear the sound of your coffee mug crashing to the floor, fallen from your stunned fingers.

So? To you folks who aren't Christian... (and assuming there is no question of the identity of the individual goving the press conference)

What do you do?

I would immediately save my soul and convert to our Saviour's religion!

What do you do?
I don't know what world you live in, but in my world it's pretty common for random yahoos to periodically claim they are the Son of God (or God incarnate). We've currently got several who are named Jesus, as a matter of fact.

My reaction to another such yahoo would be a resounding "So?"

However, if you want me to pretend that evidence has appeared which makes it extremely likely that the individual in question actually is Jesus, then I would advocate that the world governments come together to put him on trial for his crimes against humanity. I would hope that he would not be given the death penalty, but rather that he be sentenced to a lifetime of hard labor serving those most in need. And no, preaching to them does not constitute service.

I don't know what world you live in, but in my world it's pretty common for random yahoos to periodically claim they are the Son of God (or God incarnate). We've currently got several who are named Jesus, as a matter of fact.

My reaction to another such yahoo would be a resounding "So?"

However, if you want me to pretend that evidence has appeared which makes it extremely likely that the individual in question actually is Jesus, then I would advocate that the world governments come together to put him on trial for his crimes against humanity. I would hope that he would not be given the death penalty, but rather that he be sentenced to a lifetime of hard labor serving those most in need. And no, preaching to them does not constitute service.

Hence my post regarding logging on to NSG for the lolz...

One wonders why an all powerful incarnation of the infinite deity would require television. But assuming that I believe that this is Christ Jesus, which would be miraculous enough for me, I'd expect him to lay the smack down on all the so-called Christians and Christian churches in the world as being not aligned with his teaching but using his name to attract followers and money.

I would not expect him to lay the smackdown on me for having the intellectual honesty to discount his existence and messiah-ship by evaluating the evidence available to me.

If he did condemn non-christians for our "sins" or our atheism and threaten us with hellfire or the like, I would hope that the press would ask him why he was such a meglomanical, unloving asshole and why his father is such an uncaring blood-thirsty misanthrope.

I assume also that the press conference would announce that he was doing the superbowl halftime show.

Id go find a Muslim, point, and say HAHA!

Id go find a Muslim, point, and say HAHA!

Why? The Muslims also hold Jesus (or Issa) as a prophet of God...

Not being sarky...just interested...

In the spirit of the "sister" thread asking what Christians would do if Jesus were demonstrably proven to not have existed, I present the following scneario:

You wake up one morning and get out of bed, mouth tasting like carpet and your neck aching from that crummy old pillow you've been meaning to replace since back when there was only one Battlestar Galactica and the most controversial thing to come out of the White House was the fate of a conspicuous blue dress. You stumble out into the kitchen to get the cofeemaker going and you absently hit the 'power' button on your TV remote, wishing for the umpteenth time you'd gotten more than just the basic cable package so you could be watching something worthwhile, other than the network newscast.

At first, you don't notice that there's a press conference on, so you pour your cup of coffee and start debating on whether you can get away with wearing the same pair of pants as yesterday, laundry being tomorrow. Eventually you look at the TV and there's some Government official, making the announcement "Ladies and Gentlemen of the World... We have just learned that Jesus of Nazareth, the actual Son of God and the Christ has returned to the Earth, and would like to make a statement." You dig into your ear to be sure you heard right as the mike is turned over to a fellow with a beard and long brown hair, who clears his throat and begins to speak. You don't even hear the sound of your coffee mug crashing to the floor, fallen from your stunned fingers.

So? To you folks who aren't Christian... (and assuming there is no question of the identity of the individual goving the press conference)

What do you do?


Continue my life with a resounding "Meh". 'Cause the Christian god is a fucking thug. A petty tyrant at best, and a genocidal maniac at worst.

I would still refuse to follow someone who tells me that loving him/his father is the only way to reach some kind of heavenly afterlife.

I'd be forced by the evidence to believe if that were the case, but I would be strongly against that kind of demagoguery and would refuse to follow.

I care not for the consequences and I think it would be cowardly to do so.

Easy to say I know, but it would really piss me off to have my life be about that.

Maybe you would consider the Christian God unjust? Perhaps start a rebellion with Lucifer, and become a ter-- er, "freedom fighter"?

What would I do? Just assume it was a fabrication of the religious right. Go about my life and continue to be an atheist because this would never happen. It would just be an attempt by a floundering religion to regain followers.

(Edit: "You don't even hear the sound of your coffee mug crashing to the floor, fallen from your stunned fingers."... I never drop my morning coffee- it's far too important to me :p)

Well, I don't even have a TV, so the whole premise applies even less to me.

Naturally, if Jesus showed up, I'd want to hear what he has to say. Without having heard that, there's no telling what my reaction would be.
If he started with the whole 'It's too late for you unbelievers' thing then, hey, it's too late for us unbelievers. Have to accept that.

But assuming that I believe that this is Christ Jesus, which would be miraculous enough for me, I'd expect him to lay the smack down on all the so-called Christians and Christian churches in the world as being not aligned with his teaching but using his name to attract followers and money.

I agree, although the prospect of eternity with televangelists for company is far more horrific than any of the classical images of hell. Hopefully, they'd get a special section to themselves.

Appearing on a television at a press conference is hardly evidence to everyone watching. If say, he appeared simultaneously to everyone in person, then you might have a more plausible set of evidence.

Assuming this, I'd listen quite intently to what he has to say. I'd expect he'd criticise pretty much everyone alive in the last 2 millennia, but they of course he'd say we're all forgiven. My reaction would be one of interest, but I wouldn't start converting.

I'd listen, then i'd check with my friends that i'm not drunk or drugged, then check with other people to see what they think.
Then ignore it, so what another bearded guy on TV, there's loads of them, but if like the other guy said he appeared before me and everyone else, i might start to wonder how he managed it, and probably be a bit scared.

I would immediately save my soul and convert to our Saviour's religion!

Judaism?

Assuming in this hypothetical the guy really is the second coming of that Jesus of Nazarath/Isa Ibn Maryam character, I'd still carry on living my life exactly as I had been. the Christian-Islamic God lost my vote because he has no relevence to me, not because he doesn't exist. If he really wanted me to follow him he shouldn't have selected his prophets and the mother of his son from a culture/nationality that I, although deeply respect, have no ancestral or cultural connexion with whatsoever (the Israelites/Jews). Hardly the actions of a supposedly universal deity - you'd expect him to have picked prophets and/or saviours from all over the world if he really wanted all of us to follow him. But no, he just sticks with the Jews (and one Arab, if you believe the Muslims), therefore his message remains utterly devoid of any relevence or meaning to me, an English non-Jew/Arab, regardless of his existence or non-existence. I'll stick to my own ancestral Gods, thankyou very much.

I don't know what world you live in, but in my world it's pretty common for random yahoos to periodically claim they are the Son of God (or God incarnate). We've currently got several who are named Jesus, as a matter of fact.


What would I do? Just assume it was a fabrication of the religious right. Go about my life and continue to be an atheist because this would never happen. It would just be an attempt by a floundering religion to regain followers.

Appearing on a television at a press conference is hardly evidence to everyone watching. If say, he appeared simultaneously to everyone in person, then you might have a more plausible set of evidence.


Reading Is Fundamental, guys. This is why it's purely hypothetical. That's why I said this:


So? To you folks who aren't Christian... (and assuming there is no question of the identity of the individual goving the press conference)


For purposes of discussion, it doesn't matter what the evidence was. Most people got that just fine.

yep. isn't it a blessing that the catholic church must forgive sins if you confess (and mean it).

ehm... no, a priest don't has to forgive you your sins, you have to regret them, and you have to do your best to not commit this sins again

and you will also have to do something to show your regret, if you for example kill someone and regret this, the priest will most likely tell you to surrender to the police before complete forgiveness is granted.

Reading Is Fundamental, guys. This is why it's purely hypothetical. That's why I said this:



For purposes of discussion, it doesn't matter what the evidence was. Most people got that just fine.

Fine, I would be wilfully obtuse because I don't give a damn about religion and if Jesus was truly reincarnated, it wouldn't change a thing for me. I wouldn't care. Besides, even if it could be proven, I would still believe it to be a stunt of the religious right because... why Jesus and not Buddha? ;)

I wouldnt care. I hate Jesus.

ehm... no, a priest don't has to forgive you your sins, you have to regret them, and you have to do your best to not commit this sins again

and you will also have to do something to show your regret, if you for example kill someone and regret this, the priest will most likely tell you to surrender to the police before complete forgiveness is granted.

Actually, the nuances of Catholic Penance are such that the Priest is a proxy for Jesus, who is ultimately the one doing the forgiving. The priest isn't technically forgiving because, not being the one sinned against, it's not his place.

Judaism?

Correct.

In the spirit of the "sister" thread asking what Christians would do if Jesus were demonstrably proven to not have existed, I present the following scneario:

You wake up one morning and get out of bed, mouth tasting like carpet and your neck aching from that crummy old pillow you've been meaning to replace since back when there was only one Battlestar Galactica and the most controversial thing to come out of the White House was the fate of a conspicuous blue dress. You stumble out into the kitchen to get the cofeemaker going and you absently hit the 'power' button on your TV remote, wishing for the umpteenth time you'd gotten more than just the basic cable package so you could be watching something worthwhile, other than the network newscast.

At first, you don't notice that there's a press conference on, so you pour your cup of coffee and start debating on whether you can get away with wearing the same pair of pants as yesterday, laundry being tomorrow. Eventually you look at the TV and there's some Government official, making the announcement "Ladies and Gentlemen of the World... We have just learned that Jesus of Nazareth, the actual Son of God and the Christ has returned to the Earth, and would like to make a statement." You dig into your ear to be sure you heard right as the mike is turned over to a fellow with a beard and long brown hair, who clears his throat and begins to speak. You don't even hear the sound of your coffee mug crashing to the floor, fallen from your stunned fingers.

So? To you folks who aren't Christian... (and assuming there is no question of the identity of the individual goving the press conference)

What do you do?

I'd ignore the press conference, just like I do all press conferences.

What do you do?

Actually, I wouldn't drop the mug,... I would scratch my head, put down the mug, light up a cigarette, smirk and laugh at the irony a little and then ask,... "If you're here, who's playing the part of the Anti-Christ/Dajjal/<insert world destroyer here>? Then again, part of my believe/dogma is that the return of him, so I don't have much faith problem.

My main problem is, worrying wheter all the fun in the world will be cut short or not during my lifetime.

Then, I turn on my PC, looks for panicked topics in NSG to troll into, post one to five messages, take a shower, go to workplace, discuss it during lunch with friends.

The latter part is of course assuming the world didn't fall into chaos first.

Reading Is Fundamental, guys. This is why it's purely hypothetical. That's why I said this:


For purposes of discussion, it doesn't matter what the evidence was. Most people got that just fine.

Oh, I got it, I just thought the example wasn't a good one.

I would like to echo this as well:

I’d extricate myself from this ridiculous hypothetical situation.

Seriously, what’s the point of even debating such far-flung hypotheticals? The most anyone can say is, “if things were different to how they are, then my actions would be different to how they are.”

Waffle.

So? To you folks who aren't Christian... (and assuming there is no question of the identity of the individual goving the press conference)

What do you do?I'd sincerely hope he's not the jackass the fundamentalists paint him to be.

Break into song (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-755545502343478572&q=jesus+christ+superstar+song&total=412&start=10&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=6) I guess...

So? To you folks who aren't Christian... (and assuming there is no question of the identity of the individual goving the press conference)
How could there be no question?

What do you do?
Listen to what he says.

I'd want to ask him what the fuck his father was up to. And what's this bullshit about homsexuality and women submitting to men? I'd be wanting some damn explanations for some of the fucked up shit in Christianity.

Not to mention asking if he really was wasting divine power manipulating the outcome of sporting events and awards shows...

I'd want to ask him what the fuck his father was up to. And what's this bullshit about homsexuality and women submitting to men? I'd be wanting some damn explanations for some of the fucked up shit in Christianity.

Not to mention asking if he really was wasting divine power manipulating the outcome of sporting events and awards shows...No shit. Also this favoritism which no seeming reason.

"God saved me from the tornado! Thank you God!"
Why'd God like you better than your perfectly nice neighbor who got squashed?

I love all these witty "I don't give a damn" type responses. Truth is that if Jesus was back on earth right now, all the people would be on there knees bowing and praising him.Really depends. If Jesus really was a bastard, I'd look for a subtle knife.

I love all these witty "I don't give a damn" type responses. Truth is that if Jesus was back on earth right now, all the people would be on there knees bowing and praising him.

I love all these witty "I don't give a damn" type responses. Truth is that if Jesus was back on earth right now, all the people would be on there knees bowing and praising him.

damned straight i would. if i have a problem with the way things have been run so far ill ask the boss about it later

IN HEAVEN

I love all these witty "I don't give a damn" type responses. Truth is that if Jesus was back on earth right now, all the people would be on there knees bowing and praising him.

There are three reactions to the second coming.
1) A mass revival of the faithful, who weren't really that faithful until they had proof (which undermines faith).
2) A mass rejection by the unfaithful who considered Christianity a rather assholish sect to start with.
3) A mass pie-ing by LG.

I love all these witty "I don't give a damn" type responses. Truth is that if Jesus was back on earth right now, all the people would be on there knees bowing and praising him.
I'm not obligated to bow to or praise a creator, but rather hold that person responsible for their creation. Don't project your piety.

I love all these witty "I don't give a damn" type responses. Truth is that if Jesus was back on earth right now, all the people would be on there knees bowing and praising him.

You know, I was once in Sunday School and the instructor pointed out that the only people not to go to Heaven will be those who choose not to. I thought that seemed ridiculous. Now... Not so sure...

I also love all the answers that presume to take a moral highground over God.

Well neo I am a christian, and if that happened I would seriously consider the fundamentals of my faith. Things are not supposed to happen in that order.

I love all these witty "I don't give a damn" type responses. Truth is that if Jesus was back on earth right now, all the people would be on there knees bowing and praising him.
What makes you think I would suddenly start bowing and praising to a god I never worshipped before? I've had my whole life to listen to his son/prophet/etc's words and have not been drawn into that religion. What makes you think a television appearance would impress me more than a lifetime of preaching?

I can't speak for anyone else on this forum, but the reason I don't worship the God of Abraham is not because I think he's not real. It's because I think he is not relevant. What he does and offers is not something I need. Proof positive that he is real is not going to make me suddenly need what he has on offer.

I would ask Jesus to waterboard Tom Cruise on National Television till he confessed that Scientology was bullshit.

I'm not obligated to bow to or praise a creator, but rather hold that person responsible for their creation. Don't project your piety.

id rather bow down and go to heaven than stay stiff necked and burn for eternity.

those being the stakes. i have no problem dashing into town and getting in line for confession.

If he's interesting, I'll listen to what he has to say.

But I don't believe he's God. There's no reason for that without more evidence than just some guys on TV claiming he is.

I love all these witty "I don't give a damn" type responses. Truth is that if Jesus was back on earth right now, all the people would be on there knees bowing and praising him.

Bollocks. Unless Jesus personally appeared to and proved himself as God to everybody in a very short space of time, there would only be scepticism amongst most non-believers. Even still, why would I praise him? I'm not sure he deserves it or would even want it.

I love all these witty "I don't give a damn" type responses. Truth is that if Jesus was back on earth right now, all the people would be on there knees bowing and praising him.

I tihnk you'll find there are plenty of Jesuses(Jesii?) on earth at the moment. Most are Hispanic people. The rest are dismissed as insane. All those hundreds, if not thousands of people(in the latter group) insist that they are Jesus, the only begotten Son of Almighty God. The vast majority of us don't give a shit. Why is it so hard to believe that we wouldn't change tour minds for what appears to be a more lucid than normal wacko?

I'd hire a lawyer and bring suit. He and his father are responsible for billions of crappy things in this world, and I think a class-action suit is in order.

I'd hire a lawyer and bring suit. He and his father are responsible for billions of crappy things in this world, and I think a class-action suit is in order.

I'd get in on that.

I doubt Jesus would come back, viewing the thread as a whole, i think he'd be pretty scared.

Was it Jesus' responsibility for the creation of Christianity, or his followers? or is it something i haven't thought of?
From what i've read, i don't think Jesus was trying to create lots of bloodshed in his name (and other bizarre anomolies i haven't heard of but bound to exist), it seems Christianity ran away from what it was initially trying to represent. Not all the time but in some situations, i think the people who created Christianity failed to put in place a reasonable system that would stop mass atrocities being committed, partly due perhaps to the obscure and often contradictory Bible texts, but also due to the type of moral philosophy it was trying to get Europe to adopt. I think it fell into a similar category as "rule utilitarianism".
Just curious, am i wrong?

id rather bow down and go to heaven than stay stiff necked and burn for eternity.

those being the stakes. i have no problem dashing into town and getting in line for confession.

All the interesting people are heretics. I don't see an eternal life of bowing and scraping to some asshole with a superiority complex as particularly rewarding.

I'm not obligated to bow to or praise a creator, but rather hold that person responsible for their creation. Don't project your piety.

Not projecting piety, but rather truth.

"Therefore also God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those who are in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father." Phillippians 2:9-11

You may say that you will do this or that, but all that is just human bravado. Reality is that all will bow and confess he is lord.

Really depends. If Jesus really was a bastard, I'd look for a subtle knife.

:rolleyes: Hi word will cut deeper than your knife would ever think about.


damned straight i would. if i have a problem with the way things have been run so far ill ask the boss about it later

IN HEAVEN

He isn't looking for people who wait until the last minute to get into heaven, ya know? He is looking for discipled followers of His word. If you don't like what the church has done, then good! Neither do I! that is why christians are to be versed in the word and correct the wrongs in life. Being part of the church does not ensure salvation. Only accepting his grace, and being a disciple does.

There are three reactions to the second coming.
1) A mass revival of the faithful, who weren't really that faithful until they had proof (which undermines faith). Matthew chapter 7 has an answer for those people: "21 Not everyone who says to Me, "Lord, Lord," shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
22 Many will say to Me in that day, "Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?"
23 And then I will declare to them, "I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness."


2) A mass rejection by the unfaithful who considered Christianity a rather assholish sect to start with.
Their fate will be the same then. Eternal separation from God. Not necessarily burning in hell or anything, but rather they will come to know for a moment all the glory of God, and then they will be punished forever by not being able to be with God.

You know, I was once in Sunday School and the instructor pointed out that the only people not to go to Heaven will be those who choose not to. I thought that seemed ridiculous. Now... Not so sure...

I also love all the answers that presume to take a moral highground over God.

A lot of people will be very shocked on that day. That is why I try my best to tell as many as I can about the truth of the Gospel. So they can witness the glory of God, and not the horrid judgment. But people will want to live as they want to. Its hard to change a hardened heart.

You may say that you will do this or that, but all that is just human bravado. Reality is that all will bow and confess he is lord.

Interesting definition of "reality" you have there.

I would lean back in my chair and grin as Jesus tells that God loves all of His creations equally regardless of religion.

Not to mention asking if he really was wasting divine power manipulating the outcome of sporting events and awards shows...

And why the hell is Law and Order about to start its 18th season(not counting the 150 spin-offs) when Quantum Leap only lasted five?!? :(

Not projecting piety, but rather truth.

"Therefore also God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those who are in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father." Phillippians 2:9-11

You may say that you will do this or that, but all that is just human bravado. Reality is that all will bow and confess he is lord.
It must suck to be one of the many people named Jesus, to have people bowing and praising you constantly. Though some people might like that kind of thing.



:rolleyes: Hi word will cut deeper than your knife would ever think about.
I think the idea is to kill him with the knife, not have a cutting contest.




He isn't looking for people who wait until the last minute to get into heaven, ya know? He is looking for discipled followers of His word. If you don't like what the church has done, then good! Neither do I! that is why christians are to be versed in the word and correct the wrongs in life. Being part of the church does not ensure salvation. Only accepting his grace, and being a disciple does.
Guess I'm boned. So are a lot of people who don't feel the need to worship someone who does good things for them.

Matthew chapter 7 has an answer for those people: "21 Not everyone who says to Me, "Lord, Lord," shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
22 Many will say to Me in that day, "Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?"
23 And then I will declare to them, "I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness."
Since when have christians cared about the bible? ;)

Their fate will be the same then. Eternal separation from God. Not necessarily burning in hell or anything, but rather they will come to know for a moment all the glory of God, and then they will be punished forever by not being able to be with God.
I don't think I'm alone in preferring to be away from such an egotistical nut, especially an all powerful one.



A lot of people will be very shocked on that day. That is why I try my best to tell as many as I can about the truth of the Gospel. So they can witness the glory of God, and not the horrid judgment. But people will want to live as they want to. Its hard to change a hardened heart.

It's hard to change any heart when you're trying to change it to make people worship a god for no other reason than he won't let you into heaven otherwise. Sometimes the heart is hardened, sometimes the reason to change too.....blunt fits with the metaphor, I believe. Yes. Blunt.

There are three reactions to the second coming.
1) A mass revival of the faithful, who weren't really that faithful until they had proof (which undermines faith).
2) A mass rejection by the unfaithful who considered Christianity a rather assholish sect to start with.
3) A mass pie-ing by LG.

Oh, I don't care who His dad is, I'd pie Jesus. :D

He isn't looking for people who wait until the last minute to get into heaven, ya know? He is looking for discipled followers of His word. If you don't like what the church has done, then good! Neither do I! that is why christians are to be versed in the word and correct the wrongs in life. Being part of the church does not ensure salvation. Only accepting his grace, and being a disciple does.


as i said before, i am one confesson away from being a member in good standing of the catholic church. that is ALL i need to get into heaven. if you want to specify a different christian belief system, youll need to run a different scenario.

All the interesting people are heretics. I don't see an eternal life of bowing and scraping to some asshole with a superiority complex as particularly rewarding.

its more than an enternal like of bowing. Yes, we will spend eternity praising him, but its not like that is all there is to it. There will be a new heaven and earth made, and we that are there will be given gifts and responsibilities to carry out for the glory of God. So, imagine a small village type life on earth now, minus death, sickness, hate, war, and all the other bad things we have. A life of peace, and eternal joy. I can't think of anything better.

id rather bow down and go to heaven than stay stiff necked and burn for eternity.

those being the stakes. i have no problem dashing into town and getting in line for confession.

I think you have missed the point entirely. As christians, our main goal is not to get into heaven. that is what it has been made into lately, but its not the main goal. the main goal is a discipled life for Christ, and to be in communion with our lord and creator. So its not about getting into heaven, or avoiding hell. If you want stakes like that, then go follow Islam. Like I posted previously, there will be those that will claim his name, but will not do his will, and will end up in line for eternal seperation from God.

If he's interesting, I'll listen to what he has to say.

But I don't believe he's God. There's no reason for that without more evidence than just some guys on TV claiming he is.

What about evidence of his miracles in life, his death and resurrection, and appearance to over 500 people before ascending to heaven?

I would lean back in my chair and grin as Jesus tells that God loves all of His creations equally regardless of religion.

Of course he loves all of His creation. Why did Jesus come in the first place? To show the love of God! Now, because he loves his creation, doesn't mean that he won't punish those that have recieved warnings and not take heed to them.

Interesting definition of "reality" you have there.

Well, in this day and age everyone has their own reality right? I just happen to have the true reality that will stand the test of time, and all trials.

I think you have missed the point entirely. As christians, our main goal is not to get into heaven. that is what it has been made into lately, but its not the main goal. the main goal is a discipled life for Christ, and to be in communion with our lord and creator. So its not about getting into heaven, or avoiding hell. If you want stakes like that, then go follow Islam. Like I posted previously, there will be those that will claim his name, but will not do his will, and will end up in line for eternal seperation from God.


cant say as i care why YOU are a christian. if i woke up to find out that jesus returned on clouds of glory (against all odds) my ONE motive is to make sure that im on the right side when he starts sending some to heaven and some to hell.

Okay, show me where it says that you need to be a good catholic church member to be in heaven? That is not to say that Catholics won't be in heaven, because there will be catholics in heaven. But again, as Jesus said himself, there will be those that call out his name, but will not get into heaven,because they are not doing the work of the Lord.

i didnt say that you wouldnt get into heaven. the fate of others is far beyond my control. i said that all *I* need is one (sincere) confession.

its more than an enternal like of bowing. Yes, we will spend eternity praising him, but its not like that is all there is to it. There will be a new heaven and earth made, and we that are there will be given gifts and responsibilities to carry out for the glory of God. So, imagine a small village type life on earth now, minus death, sickness, hate, war, and all the other bad things we have. A life of peace, and eternal joy. I can't think of anything better.
All of the above, minus mandatory praising and giving glory to god? A well treated slave is still a slave.



I think you have missed the point entirely. As christians, our main goal is not to get into heaven. that is what it has been made into lately, but its not the main goal. the main goal is a discipled life for Christ, and to be in communion with our lord and creator. So its not about getting into heaven, or avoiding hell. If you want stakes like that, then go follow Islam. Like I posted previously, there will be those that will claim his name, but will not do his will, and will end up in line for eternal seperation from God.
Makes you wonder what Jesus was on about with that whole 'The only way to the Father is through me' thing.



What about evidence of his miracles in life, his death and resurrection, and appearance to over 500 people before ascending to heaven?

Hercules did some pretty awesome shit too.

as i said before, i am one confesson away from being a member in good standing of the catholic church. that is ALL i need to get into heaven. if you want to specify a different christian belief system, youll need to run a different scenario.

Okay, show me where it says that you need to be a good catholic church member to be in heaven? That is not to say that Catholics won't be in heaven, because there will be catholics in heaven. But again, as Jesus said himself, there will be those that call out his name, but will not get into heaven,because they are not doing the work of the Lord.

Of course he loves all of His creation. Why did Jesus come in the first place? To show the love of God! Now, because he loves his creation, doesn't mean that he won't punish those that have recieved warnings and not take heed to them.
Yeah, I punish people I love all the time. Oh wait, no I don't.

Well, in this day and age everyone has their own reality right?
No. Some people have reality, others have delusions.

I just happen to have the true reality that will stand the test of time, and all trials.
Sure... that sounds likely.

Reading Is Fundamental, guys. This is why it's purely hypothetical. That's why I said this:

For purposes of discussion, it doesn't matter what the evidence was. Most people got that just fine.
Take your own advice and read my WHOLE post, darling. It's fundamental, doncha know.

I love all these witty "I don't give a damn" type responses. Truth is that if Jesus was back on earth right now, all the people would be on there knees bowing and praising him.
I was honest in my response. If Jesus was real and returned to Earth, I would want to see him held to the same standards of justice that I would apply to any human on this planet. From what I've read, he has quite a lot to answer for, and I haven't yet heard of anything he's done to deserve my worship.

Okay, show me where it says that you need to be a good catholic church member to be in heaven? That is not to say that Catholics won't be in heaven, because there will be catholics in heaven. But again, as Jesus said himself, there will be those that call out his name, but will not get into heaven,because they are not doing the work of the Lord.

Matthew 16:19

For those who can't recall it offhand:
I will give you[Peter] the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.

Basically, Peter is the arbiter of what one does to get into heaven, and Peter founded the Catholic Church.

Matthew 16:19

There is quite a big difference of being a member of a church, and THE CHURCH.

A church can be a building dedicated to worship service or whatever. Being a member of those churches do not ensure salvation

If you are a member of THE church, aka the Body of Christ, then you are disciplined born again believer.

Please don't think you can be clever in cherry picking bible verses.

All of the above, minus mandatory praising and giving glory to god? A well treated slave is still a slave.

Indeed. Any God that wants me to bow down to it for eternity is far too insecure and clingy for me to worship. I'm sure God could probably bribe me into faking it for a while, if the price was right, but I wouldn't be able to sincerely mean it.

its more than an enternal like of bowing. Yes, we will spend eternity praising him, but its not like that is all there is to it. There will be a new heaven and earth made, and we that are there will be given gifts and responsibilities to carry out for the glory of God. So, imagine a small village type life on earth now, minus death, sickness, hate, war, and all the other bad things we have. A life of peace, and eternal joy. I can't think of anything better.



I think you have missed the point entirely. As christians, our main goal is not to get into heaven. that is what it has been made into lately, but its not the main goal. the main goal is a discipled life for Christ, and to be in communion with our lord and creator. So its not about getting into heaven, or avoiding hell. If you want stakes like that, then go follow Islam. Like I posted previously, there will be those that will claim his name, but will not do his will, and will end up in line for eternal seperation from God.



What about evidence of his miracles in life, his death and resurrection, and appearance to over 500 people before ascending to heaven?

I wish I could be more like you, but it's so hard....

Yeah, I punish people I love all the time. Oh wait, no I don't.
If you are a parent, do you let your child run loose doing anything they want, or do you punish them for getting out of line?

No. Some people have reality, others have delusions.
I couldn't agree more. Reading the responses to this thread proves that.

If you are a parent, do you let your child run loose doing anything they want, or do you punish them for getting out of line?
If I had a child, I may have to do that, but the punishment would last for a finite time, not eternity, as I am not cruel.

You think that God, who can create an entire universe without sweating a drop really NEEDs your worship?

No. Which is why I would question his DESIRE to have me worship him eternally.


If he was an insecure ass hole as you claim, he would just rather destroy any traces of rebellion or free thought from the beginning.

Or he'd create an eternal afterlife and fill it with humans who would bow down to him for all eternity.


But instead, he is a God that is loving, and merciful. He gives second chances, even to insignificant scumbags likes you and I.

If you're an insignificant scumbag then that sucks. I suppose you can't aspire to more than being somebody's eternal ass-kisser.

I wouldn't know, personally, but I imagine that must be a sad way to live. I kind of feel sorry for your God, if he's filling his Heaven with insignificant scumbags.

Indeed. Any God that wants me to bow down to it for eternity is far too insecure and clingy for me to worship. I'm sure God could probably bribe me into faking it for a while, if the price was right, but I wouldn't be able to sincerely mean it.

You think that God, who can create an entire universe without sweating a drop really NEEDs your worship? If he was an insecure ass hole as you claim, he would just rather destroy any traces of rebellion or free thought from the beginning.But instead, he is a God that is loving, and merciful. He gives second chances, even to insignificant scumbags likes you and I.




I wish I could be more like you, but it's so hard....

Don't wish to be like me. Wish to be like Christ. I am just a pathetic peice of flesh trying to do the father's will.

If you are a parent, do you let your child run loose doing anything they want, or do you punish them for getting out of line?
I couldn't agree more. Reading the responses to this thread proves that.

which responses?

If you are a parent, do you let your child run loose doing anything they want, or do you punish them for getting out of line?
No.

id rather bow down and go to heaven than stay stiff necked and burn for eternity.

those being the stakes. i have no problem dashing into town and getting in line for confession.
As long as you're going into town, would you pick me up a quart of milk? I need to do my laundry. ;)

Also, to Ifreann regarding matthew 16:19. Read the whole chapter. What does it say? It shows how Christ asked the disciples who he was, and peter said he was the son of the living God, and then Christ said the whole bit of peter being the rock on which the church would be built. Christ DID NOT say that Peter's church would be the end all church. He was saying that it was the faith that peter showed in saying what he said, that would build the church up. So, faith is what would make the church, not anything else.

which responses?

Oh, you know pretty much every response saying that people would let Christ know what they really thought and so on.

There is quite a big difference of being a member of a church, and THE CHURCH.

A church can be a building dedicated to worship service or whatever. Being a member of those churches do not ensure salvation

If you are a member of THE church, aka the Body of Christ, then you are disciplined born again believer.

Please don't think you can be clever in cherry picking bible verses.

I didn't say anything about THE church or being a member of it. I pointed out that Peter was given responsibility for deciding what to bind and loose on earth. And Peter founded the catholic church, so what the catholic church says about how one gets into heaven is what god is bound to respect. Unless Jesus was a liar.

But whatever, it's your holy book. I'm sure you know some passages that contradict that one.

Oh, you know pretty much every response saying that people would let Christ know what they really thought and so on.

oh figures, maybe they like him.
I mean if i believed in a big invisible guy that offered salvation after death i guess i'd get pretty irritated when other people said i was wrong.

You know, reading how some people describe how they view god/jesus is bordeline scary. It reads like a damned psychopathic stalker describing his dillusional fantasy of how he viewes his stalking victim.
No wonder Jesus hasn't returned. :P

You know, reading how some people describe how they view god/jesus is bordeline scary. It reads like a damned psychopathic stalker describing his dillusional fantasy of how he viewes his stalking victim.

Edit: or a beaten spouse describing that the abuser only does it "out of love"

Listen to what Jesus has to say. After all, it could be that this is not Jesus, but the Messiah. If it turns out to be the Messiah, cue dancing in the streets.

Jesus IS the Messiah. The Jews of His day made the same mistake, not recognizing Him as such.

Since when is Microsoft a church dedicated to Jesus?

He was talking about the Roman Catholic Church, not Microsoft.

As long as you're going into town, would you pick me up a quart of milk? I need to do my laundry. ;)

no problem. skim or 2%?

Edit: or a beaten spouse describing that the abuser only does it "out of love"
Yeah, that's most often how it sounds to me. Especially when believers start going on about how they are worthless and scum and don't deserve anything, but God generously decides to be nice to them. It's textbook battered spouse language.

I love all these witty "I don't give a damn" type responses. Truth is that if Jesus was back on earth right now, all the people would be on there knees bowing and praising him.

Why?

Don't wish to be like me. Wish to be like Christ. I am just a pathetic peice of flesh trying to do the father's will.



Every creation of God is worth something, it's true your life and salvation are ALL due to God and christ. But still, BECAUSE God made us we are worth something.


Edit: I should have said "have worth" not "worth something".

No what? No "you don't let them run loose and do just anything they want", or no "you don't punish them for getting out of line"?

And if you say no to BOTH: If you don't punish, or at least discipline, them for getting out of line, they'll go right back and do it again (by "it" I mean whatever it is you tell them not to do but they do anyway).
No, I wouldn't let my child run loose and do anything and everything they want. I would encourage them to pursue things they liked doing, and to trust their instincts and not do things that felt wrong, but I would also help to teach them to control their impulses and show good judgment and foresight.

No, I wouldn't punish my child any time they got out of line, because there are plenty of times when a child is out of line but doesn't deserve punishment. If I were parenting then I would feel obligated to actually be a fucking grown-up about it, which would require a more nuanced view of behavior.

Discipline and punishment are not the same thing, and should NEVER be confused.

No.

No what? No "you don't let them run loose and do just anything they want", or no "you don't punish them for getting out of line"?

And if you say no to BOTH: If you don't punish, or at least discipline, them for getting out of line, they'll go right back and do it again (by "it" I mean whatever it is you tell them not to do but they do anyway).

Every creation of God is worth something, it's true your life and salvation are ALL due to God and christ. But still, BECAUSE God made us we are worth something.

Okay if i accept that as true (which it may be), what is the purpose of God? If you can decide what humans purpose is then surely God's purpose is evident by the same logic used.
Oh and is this the Christian God? or a God in general? or a Muslim God?

Not projecting piety, but rather truth.

<snip>

You may say that you will do this or that, but all that is just human bravado. Reality is that all will bow and confess he is lord.



:rolleyes: Hi word will cut deeper than your knife would ever think about.

<snip>

Their fate will be the same then. Eternal separation from God. Not necessarily burning in hell or anything, but rather they will come to know for a moment all the glory of God, and then they will be punished forever by not being able to be with God.



A lot of people will be very shocked on that day. That is why I try my best to tell as many as I can about the truth of the Gospel. So they can witness the glory of God, and not the horrid judgment. But people will want to live as they want to. Its hard to change a hardened heart.

<snip>

Well, in this day and age everyone has their own reality right? I just happen to have the true reality that will stand the test of time, and all trials.
Judging by the remarks I highlighted, and the fact that you are talking entirely in a future tense, this reality you are selling is something that hasn't happened yet and therefore does not exist and therefore is nothing I need to concern myself with. Also, I remind you that you offer us only your word for all this, so... sorry, but that doesn't really carry a lot of weight.

I appreciate that you wish to warn people of something you think will be bad, but you have to understand that (a) many people just do not believe your predictions or cosmology, and (b) some people, like me, have no desire whatsoever to enter your "heaven" or be in constant contact with your god, so it is hardly likely that we will be moved by threats of not being in constant contact with him.

That is the basic problem with all this "the end is nigh" preaching. It has no power to persuade people who don't believe in the "end," don't believe in the "second coming," and don't wish for heaven or fear hell.

If you don't punish, or at least discipline.

It's somewhat telling that you conflate the two.

If you are a parent, do you let your child run loose doing anything they want, or do you punish them for getting out of line?
If there is reason behind my rules then I can explain that reason to my child. If they understand the reason they won't break the rule. If they don't understand the reason, they wouldn't be able to understand the rule anyway. Punishment is a poor replacement for explanation, and should only be employed when it is vital that the rule be obeyed but explanation and understanding are impossible.

You think that God, who can create an entire universe without sweating a drop really NEEDs your worship?
If he doesn't need it and I don't want to give it then what's the problem? I'll go my way and he'll go his.
If he was an insecure ass hole as you claim, he would just rather destroy any traces of rebellion or free thought from the beginning.But instead, he is a God that is loving, and merciful.
A loving and merciful god that creates rules for right and wrong arbitrarily and demands that they be followed, on punishment of eternal exile from his prescence(he really didn't think that punishment through, though, did he?)
He gives second chances, even to insignificant scumbags likes you and I.
Fell free to insult yourself, but leave the rest of us out of it.





Don't wish to be like me. Wish to be like Christ. I am just a pathetic peice of flesh trying to do the father's will.
What a waste of the free will he supposedly gave you.
Also, to Ifreann regarding matthew 16:19. Read the whole chapter. What does it say? It shows how Christ asked the disciples who he was, and peter said he was the son of the living God, and then Christ said the whole bit of peter being the rock on which the church would be built. Christ DID NOT say that Peter's church would be the end all church. He was saying that it was the faith that peter showed in saying what he said, that would build the church up. So, faith is what would make the church, not anything else.
Yes. Peter's faith made the church. The catholic church. If you think your faith is equal to his then perhaps God will give you the responsibility of raising up a new church. Let us know how that goes for you.
You know, reading how some people describe how they view god/jesus is bordeline scary. It reads like a damned psychopathic stalker describing his dillusional fantasy of how he viewes his stalking victim.
And look how that ends. The victim stops living up to the stalker's fantasy and winds up dead. Man, I'd hate to be God right about now.

Every creation of God is worth something, it's true your life and salvation are ALL due to God and christ. But still, BECAUSE God made us we are worth something.


Edit: I should have said "had worth" not "worth something".

Well, yes, we are worth something in GOD's eyes, but I think the point Zilam was trying to make was that WE should not think of OURSELVES more highly than we ought to think, which Paul the Apostle also wrote in one of his epistles. The Bible also says "Let ANOTHER man praise thee, and NOT THINE OWN mouth" (emphases mine).

It's somewhat telling that you conflate the two.

:confused:

Also, to Ifreann regarding matthew 16:19. Read the whole chapter. What does it say? It shows how Christ asked the disciples who he was, and peter said he was the son of the living God, and then Christ said the whole bit of peter being the rock on which the church would be built. Christ DID NOT say that Peter's church would be the end all church. He was saying that it was the faith that peter showed in saying what he said, that would build the church up. So, faith is what would make the church, not anything else.

yes that is all well and good.

but if in this hypothetical scenario the press conference with jesus was being broadcast from THE VATICAN and he was affirming that indeed the pope is his representative on earth, i trust that you would not start screaming "im not associating myself with any organization that would put an emperor palpatine look-alike at the top" but would instead do whatever you could do to get right with the roman catholic church.

no problem. skim or 2%?
Whole, please. I don't drink adulterated milk, just like I don't join corrupted churches.

Oops. Did I just type that out loud?

Yeah, that's most often how it sounds to me. Especially when believers start going on about how they are worthless and scum and don't deserve anything, but God generously decides to be nice to them. It's textbook battered spouse language.

It so truly is. It's really fucking scary at times huh? I mean, usually when people talk like this in other contexts, we suggest they get help.

And hey, I've known a lot of sub masocists in my time, the behavior is remarkably similar, at least many of them are honest about why they enjoy it. Some times I feel like half these folks should just be honest with themselves and go to a professional and get their ass beaten a little bit

Whole, please. I don't drink adulterated milk, just like I don't join corrupted churches.

Oops. Did I just type that out loud?

lol "type out loud"

hey if im going to have to go looking for some unprocessed quart of milk you may just have to do without for today.

It so truly is. It's really fucking scary at times huh? I mean, usually when people talk like this in other contexts, we suggest they get help.

And hey, I've known a lot of sub masocists in my time, the behavior is remarkably similar, at least many of them are honest about why they enjoy it. Some times I feel like half these folks should just be honest with themselves and go to a professional and get their ass beaten a little bit
In the religion racket, it's called "flagellation."

In the religion racket, it's called "flagellation."

seriously. I do think some times that a lot of these folks just substitue god for their own personal kink.

lol "type out loud"

hey if im going to have to go looking for some unprocessed quart of milk you may just have to do without for today.
Oh, please, you lazy, indulgence-currying Catholic, just look in any 7-11 and look for the red cap in the dairy case. You know what? Forget it. As usual, the polytheists, pagans, and secularists are going to have run all our own errands in the here and now while the god-botherers get obsessed with their after-lives. :p

no, actually, I didn't know you always said that. In fact it's the first time I've known you to say that.

Maybe he says it a lot but never posts it.

I would still refuse to follow someone who tells me that loving him/his father is the only way to reach some kind of heavenly afterlife.

I'd be forced by the evidence to believe if that were the case, but I would be strongly against that kind of demagoguery and would refuse to follow.

I care not for the consequences and I think it would be cowardly to do so.

Easy to say I know, but it would really piss me off to have my life be about that.

What if you found out it was not God's "judgement" but people's own thoughts and feelings, and the personal hell within them, that kept them out of heaven. What if you found out that heaven and hell were not locations at all but states of being created by the final realization and knowledge of what you did in life on earth when will was free and resources were to be exploited.

As for Revelations, it probably shouldn't have been included in the Bible in the first place, as it was a political text written by an angry, hateful, spiteful disciple in his last days of life. And if the Bible was meant to be followed mindlessly to the smallest detail in semantics, it would not have been called "Bible," which means library or collection of books.

seriously. I do think some times that a lot of these folks just substitue god for their own personal kink.

Well, you know what I always say -- a little self-awareness and honesty are worth more than the grace of a thousand gods.

Well, you know what I always say -- a little self-awareness and honesty are worth more than the grace of a thousand gods.

no, actually, I didn't know you always said that. In fact it's the first time I've known you to say that.

Maybe he says it a lot but never posts it.

Muravyets is a he now?

Fascinating

Oh, please, you lazy, indulgence-currying Catholic, just look in any 7-11 and look for the red cap in the dairy case. You know what? Forget it. As usual, the polytheists, pagans, and secularists are going to have run all our own errands in the here and now while the god-botherers get obsessed with their after-lives. :p

lol

hey WHATEVER.

if jesus comes back, that line for confession is going to be brutally long. i doubt i could have gotten back with milk any time today.

no, actually, I didn't know you always said that. In fact it's the first time I've known you to say that.
Well, from this point on, you can start keeping count. :)

Muravyets is a he now?

Fascinating
Life is busy when you're a polytheist. *nods* ;)

Life is busy when you're a polytheist. *nods* ;)

does that mean you have male and female...erm...nm.

Maybe she says it a lot but never posts it.

corrected ;)

Muravyets is a he now?

Fascinating

Well, from this point on, you can start keeping count. :)


Life is busy when you're a polytheist. *nods* ;)

does that mean you have male and female...erm...nm.

Thanks guys. This exchange just made my day. :D

Well, yes, we are worth something in GOD's eyes, but I think the point Zilam was trying to make was that WE should not think of OURSELVES more highly than we ought to think, which Paul the Apostle also wrote in one of his epistles. The Bible also says "Let ANOTHER man praise thee, and NOT THINE OWN mouth" (emphases mine).

THAT makes MUCH more sense, thanks for placing it in context for me.

What about evidence of his miracles in life, his death and resurrection, and appearance to over 500 people before ascending to heaven?
I don't have any credible evidence that those things took place. Any of them.

I have one book telling me they did, but I'm sure there's a book claiming they didn't. Why should I trust one book over another without some corroboration?

I don't have any credible evidence that those things took place. Any of them.

I have one book telling me they did, but I'm sure there's a book claiming they didn't. Why should I trust one book over another without some corroboration?

Llewdor, Zilam, on topic please, this about whether your faith would be hurt if it was proven that he was real, not whether or not he was, or if he was real, was he really the son of Jehovah.

lol

hey WHATEVER.

if jesus comes back, that line for confession is going to be brutally long. i doubt i could have gotten back with milk any time today.
You don't think they'll set up an express lane for people able to buy their way into heaven, the way they did in the old days? *imagines a heavenly toll plaza*

You don't think they'll set up an express lane for people able to buy their way into heaven, the way they did in the old days? *imagines a heavenly toll plaza*

LOL
I like you Muravyets :fluffle:

You don't think they'll set up an express lane for people able to buy their way into heaven, the way they did in the old days? *imagines a heavenly toll plaza*

they very well might.

depending on how long the time frame is.

but *I* dont have that kind of money so ill have to wait in line with the rest of the miserable sinners.

What if you found out it was not God's "judgement" but people's own thoughts and feelings, and the personal hell within them, that kept them out of heaven. What if you found out that heaven and hell were not locations at all but states of being created by the final realization and knowledge of what you did in life on earth when will was free and resources were to be exploited.
What if you made some stuff up to try and bribe people into believing as you do?

As for Revelations, it probably shouldn't have been included in the Bible in the first place, as it was a political text written by an angry, hateful, spiteful disciple in his last days of life. And if the Bible was meant to be followed mindlessly to the smallest detail in semantics, it would not have been called "Bible," which means library or collection of books.
Sounds like a cheap attempt to ignore Biblical evidence that contradicts anything you say.
Muravyets is a he now?

Fascinating
I've given up keeping track of everyone's gender ages ago. If I'm not sure I guess based on their name.
corrected ;)
OIC.
You don't think they'll set up an express lane for people able to buy their way into heaven, the way they did in the old days? *imagines a heavenly toll plaza*

You know what they say, "When the coin in the coffer sings, then the barrier rises up and the guy in the booth waves you through"

I've given up keeping track of everyone's gender ages ago. If I'm not sure I guess based on their name.

The only reason I know is I just read a post in another thread where she states that she is, well, a she.

they very well might.

depending on how long the time frame is.

but *I* dont have that kind of money so ill have to wait in line with the rest of the miserable sinners.
Ah, I see, well, to use Zilam's future tense, it will suck to be you on that great getting-up day.

LOL
I like you Muravyets :fluffle:

Polytheism -- It's all about the love. And the snotty jokes. ;)

Ah, I see, well, to use Zilam's future tense, it will suck to be you on that great getting-up day.

yes yes it will. i hope i dont miss the boat by sleeping in. im usually up by 6 most days.

in any case itll be a busy busy day.

<snip>

You know what they say, "When the coin in the coffer sings, then the barrier rises up and the guy in the booth waves you through"
That's a good one. I also like the one that goes, "There's no use crying after you leave the barn door open and the horses upset the apple cart, causing the milk to be spilled under the bridge."

One might cite that one in answer to calls to repent before the end comes. :)

Polytheism -- It's all about the love. And the snotty jokes. ;)

Really? I always thought it was about multi-armed and/or blue deities. Or at least that's what my polytheism used to be about. Back when I was a polytheist.

i would think "oh, that's nice for them" and then wonder where all the other mythological beings had got to.

I'd roll my eyes, pick up the remains of my coffee cup, and then call my friend Matt to ask why the fuck he's on TV in his Halloween costume again. :P

Really? I always thought it was about multi-armed and/or blue deities. Or at least that's what my polytheism used to be about. Back when I was a polytheist.
Like I said...feel the love. ;)

Call Bullshit on him until he sufficiently proves he is the son of god.

Other then that, I don't see the point in what if questions, they bug the crap out of me because they never happen.

Like I said...feel the love. ;)

:D

Out of curiosity, aside from being polytheist and (if memory serves) animist, does the religion you subscribe to have a name?

In the spirit of the "sister" thread asking what Christians would do if Jesus were demonstrably proven to not have existed, I present the following scneario:

You wake up one morning and get out of bed, mouth tasting like carpet and your neck aching from that crummy old pillow you've been meaning to replace since back when there was only one Battlestar Galactica and the most controversial thing to come out of the White House was the fate of a conspicuous blue dress. You stumble out into the kitchen to get the cofeemaker going and you absently hit the 'power' button on your TV remote, wishing for the umpteenth time you'd gotten more than just the basic cable package so you could be watching something worthwhile, other than the network newscast.

At first, you don't notice that there's a press conference on, so you pour your cup of coffee and start debating on whether you can get away with wearing the same pair of pants as yesterday, laundry being tomorrow. Eventually you look at the TV and there's some Government official, making the announcement "Ladies and Gentlemen of the World... We have just learned that Jesus of Nazareth, the actual Son of God and the Christ has returned to the Earth, and would like to make a statement." You dig into your ear to be sure you heard right as the mike is turned over to a fellow with a beard and long brown hair, who clears his throat and begins to speak. You don't even hear the sound of your coffee mug crashing to the floor, fallen from your stunned fingers.

So? To you folks who aren't Christian... (and assuming there is no question of the identity of the individual goving the press conference)

What do you do?

I would convert to christianity very quickly if that happened. Hail mighty Jesus!

Not projecting piety, but rather truth.

"Therefore also God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those who are in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father." Phillippians 2:9-11

You may say that you will do this or that, but all that is just human bravado. Reality is that all will bow and confess he is lord.


Just because I should doesn't mean I will. And frankly, if he forces the issue then whats the fucking point? That really gives him more of a personality disorder than already implied...

In the spirit of the "sister" thread asking what Christians would do if Jesus were demonstrably proven to not have existed, I present the following scneario:

You wake up one morning and get out of bed, mouth tasting like carpet and your neck aching from that crummy old pillow you've been meaning to replace since back when there was only one Battlestar Galactica and the most controversial thing to come out of the White House was the fate of a conspicuous blue dress. You stumble out into the kitchen to get the cofeemaker going and you absently hit the 'power' button on your TV remote, wishing for the umpteenth time you'd gotten more than just the basic cable package so you could be watching something worthwhile, other than the network newscast.

At first, you don't notice that there's a press conference on, so you pour your cup of coffee and start debating on whether you can get away with wearing the same pair of pants as yesterday, laundry being tomorrow. Eventually you look at the TV and there's some Government official, making the announcement "Ladies and Gentlemen of the World... We have just learned that Jesus of Nazareth, the actual Son of God and the Christ has returned to the Earth, and would like to make a statement." You dig into your ear to be sure you heard right as the mike is turned over to a fellow with a beard and long brown hair, who clears his throat and begins to speak. You don't even hear the sound of your coffee mug crashing to the floor, fallen from your stunned fingers.

So? To you folks who aren't Christian... (and assuming there is no question of the identity of the individual goving the press conference)

What do you do?

Channel surf to see what the weather's like today and get ready for work-this news story has nothing to with me.

You think that God, who can create an entire universe without sweating a drop really NEEDs your worship? If he was an insecure ass hole as you claim, he would just rather destroy any traces of rebellion or free thought from the beginning.But instead, he is a God that is loving, and merciful. He gives second chances, even to insignificant scumbags likes you and I.

Don't wish to be like me. Wish to be like Christ. I am just a pathetic peice of flesh trying to do the father's will.


If God doesn't need my worship, why does he keep badgering and threatening us for it? I just keep thinking of Captain Kirk asking "Why does God need a Starship?"

If it really is God, omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, then what we do is irrelevant. Then all the unreasonable, silly-ass demands he/she/it makes have to do with wants and not needs. Everything I've ever read, in the Bible and elsewhere shows me that this "God" of yours is childish, whining crybaby who's going to break his toys (us) if he doesn't get his own way.

I really don't want to be like Christ - another abused throwaway of this Semitic god of war.

I really don't want to be like Christ - another abused throwaway of this Semitic god of war.

It just occurred to me that he behaves a lot like an only child. Everything has to be about him, throws fits when things don't go his way, melodramatic...

Go to the kitchen, add a bit more sugar to my coffee...go back into the livingroom..wonder why one of those ill-informed American news channels is playing and change channels. There has to be some interesting sports news from last nights games.

Check the post to see if someone has finally managed to create a brochure on what heaven looks like...

It just occurred to me that he behaves a lot like an only child. Everything has to be about him, throws fits when things don't go his way, melodramatic...

Here's the thing - on these very boards I have to accept that there are Mods, who have general rules for what is allowed or not. I can choose to accept those rules or disobey them and I pay the consequences for my decisions.

Yet I can also choose not to write here, I can choose not to play.

This is different to a God who creates this universe, places me in it and then tells me I have to play by certain rules or I will be punished.

I cannot accept that.

Now there's plenty of philosophies and thoughts on the best means in which to live ones life and, again, I can choose to accept those or not and also accept the consequences. The teachings of the NT have some good advice but that's all it is, advice, and there should be no consequences for that beyond this mortal coil. It's why I can understand people who choose to lead a Christian life and, as long as the evangelism is not present, I can accept that. The point is we do things, discover what is good, in order to be social, curious creatures, not because it's ordained from on high.

So, for me, ultimately there's simply no need for a God to tell me how to live my life, I can figure it out mostly for myself and that is the joy in living.

I don't need to thank anyone for it, my parents perhaps, family, friends and those I learn from and enjoy living this life with, I don't need to follow any creed or belief other than my own choosing. I can accept the consequences of those choices.

Second, I recognize that I have the luxury of not being in poverty, in desperation or dire need so I can't really judge those who are for making decisions I don't have to make.

So what could Jesus possibly say? Either he says, carry on, live your lives and everyone goes to heaven no matter what or he lays down some rules.

If I lays down some rules, especially if the major rule is to love him, then dammit no. I didn't sign up to that.

Perhaps there's a God, perhaps there isn't - frankly it should not make one iota of a difference to my life.

Except it does!

Stupid laws based on nothing better than this belief, stupid politicians and stupid religious figures who sustain themselves on tapping into this flaw in our characters, that we believe we can deduce anything whatsoever as to what an unknowable God wants.

Stupid people constantly telling me about it.

If I banged on about some band in the same way people bang on about religion I'd be taken off most social lists for being an utter bore but, for some reason, we're expected to respect the beliefs of others and keep inviting them to the party, and they get to influence laws that mean I have to listen. Hell, for many of these beliefs they'll blow me up for not listening to their irrelevant band.

I just want it to stop.

Here's the thing - on these very boards I have to accept that there are Mods, who have general rules for what is allowed or not. I can choose to accept those rules or disobey them and I pay the consequences for my decisions.

Yet I can also choose not to write here, I can choose not to play.

This is different to a God who creates this universe, places me in it and then tells me I have to play by certain rules or I will be punished.

I cannot accept that.

Now there's plenty of philosophies and thoughts on the best means in which to live ones life and, again, I can choose to accept those or not and also accept the consequences. The teachings of the NT have some good advice but that's all it is, advice, and there should be no consequences for that beyond this mortal coil. It's why I can understand people who choose to lead a Christian life and, as long as the evangelism is not present, I can accept that. The point is we do things, discover what is good, in order to be social, curious creatures, not because it's ordained from on high.

So, for me, ultimately there's simply no need for a God to tell me how to live my life, I can figure it out mostly for myself and that is the joy in living.

I don't need to thank anyone for it, my parents perhaps, family, friends and those I learn from and enjoy living this life with, I don't need to follow any creed or belief other than my own choosing. I can accept the consequences of those choices.

Second, I recognize that I have the luxury of not being in poverty, in desperation or dire need so I can't really judge those who are for making decisions I don't have to make.

So what could Jesus possibly say? Either he says, carry on, live your lives and everyone goes to heaven no matter what or he lays down some rules.

If I lays down some rules, especially if the major rule is to love him, then dammit no. I didn't sign up to that.

Perhaps there's a God, perhaps there isn't - frankly it should not make one iota of a difference to my life.

Except it does!

Stupid laws based on nothing better than this belief, stupid politicians and stupid religious figures who sustain themselves on tapping into this flaw in our characters, that we believe we can deduce anything whatsoever as to what an unknowable God wants.

Stupid people constantly telling me about it.

If I banged on about some band in the same way people bang on about religion I'd be taken off most social lists for being an utter bore but, for some reason, we're expected to respect the beliefs of others and keep inviting them to the party, and they get to influence laws that mean I have to listen. Hell, for many of these beliefs they'll blow me up for not listening to their irrelevant band.

I just want it to stop.

Normally, other people would say, "Take a breather!" and try and convince you to calm down.
Not me.
Good for you.
*bows*

:D

Out of curiosity, aside from being polytheist and (if memory serves) animist, does the religion you subscribe to have a name?

Not to my knowledge. If it had a known group identity, I would have rejected it because organized religion makes me paranoid.

Actually, I do not belong to any group. I practice privately the folk religion traditions of several European cultures, reflecting my mixed Euro ancestry, but all overlaid with, well, you know, being a New Yorker living in Massachusetts. Not much point in setting out milk for the domovoy in Bean Town, but venerating the ghosts of the Revolution, on the other hand...

You know, reading how some people describe how they view god/jesus is bordeline scary. It reads like a damned psychopathic stalker describing his dillusional fantasy of how he viewes his stalking victim.
Love him, I love him, I love him,
And where he goes I´ll follow, I´ll follow, I´ll follow.

I´ll follow him, follow him wherever he may go.
There´sn´t an ocean too deep,
A mountain so high, it can not keep me away.

I must follow him, ever since he touched my hand I knew,
That near him I always must be.
And nothing can keep him from me,
He is my destiny.

I love him, I love him, I love him,
And where he goes I´ll follow, I´ll follow, I´ll follow.
He´ll always be my true love, my true love, my true love,
From now till forever, forever, forever. ....
(ad nauseum)
<.<
>.>

<snip for length>

Stupid laws based on nothing better than this belief, stupid politicians and stupid religious figures who sustain themselves on tapping into this flaw in our characters, that we believe we can deduce anything whatsoever as to what an unknowable God wants.

Stupid people constantly telling me about it.

If I banged on about some band in the same way people bang on about religion I'd be taken off most social lists for being an utter bore but, for some reason, we're expected to respect the beliefs of others and keep inviting them to the party, and they get to influence laws that mean I have to listen. Hell, for many of these beliefs they'll blow me up for not listening to their irrelevant band.

I just want it to stop.
Me too!

I can't help wondering what the OP thinks is going to happen if his god ever does swing into town. Does he think all the Christians' incessant, grinding, droning effort to convert others will suddenly payoff as the last few contrarians will finally drop the pretense and scramble onto Jesus's bandwagon? It won't happen, and I wish they would just stop trying to sell their spiritual product to me already.

If it had a known group identity, I would have rejected it because organized religion makes me paranoid.
You know, it's not really paranoia if they really are out to get you.
He that sacrificeth unto any god, save unto the LORD only, he shall be utterly destroyed.
+
Exodus 23:24 Thou shalt not bow down to their gods, nor serve them, nor do after their works: but thou shalt utterly overthrow them, and quite break down their images.
+
Exodus 23:32 Thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor with their gods.
Stay away from those that believe differently than you. Do not make treaties with them or allow them to live in your land.
23:33 They shall not dwell in thy land, lest they make thee sin against me: for if thou serve their gods, it will surely be a snare unto thee.
+
Leviticus 20:6 And the soul that turneth after such as have familiar spirits, and after wizards, to go a whoring after them, I will even set my face against that soul, and will cut him off from among his people.
20:7 Sanctify yourselves therefore, and be ye holy: for I am the LORD your God.
+
Deuteronomy 2:25 This day will I begin to put the dread of thee and the fear of thee upon the nations that are under the whole heaven, who shall hear report of thee, and shall tremble, and be in anguish because of thee.
+
6:15 (For the LORD thy God is a jealous God among you) lest the anger of the LORD thy God be kindled against thee, and destroy thee from off the face of the earth.
+
7:25 The graven images of their gods shall ye burn with fire: thou shalt not desire the silver or gold that is on them, nor take it unto thee, lest thou be snared therin: for it is an abomination to the LORD thy God.
12:2 Ye shall utterly destroy all the places, wherein the nations which ye shall possess served their gods, upon the high mountains, and upon the hills, and under every green tree:
12:3 And ye shall overthrow their altars, and break their pillars, and burn their groves with fire; and ye shall hew down the graven images of their gods, and destroy the names of them out of that place.
+
12:30 Take heed to thyself that thou be not snared by following them, after that they be destroyed from before thee; and that thou enquire not after their gods, saying, How did these nations serve their gods? even so will I do likewise.
+
17:2 If there be found among you, within any of thy gates which the LORD thy God giveth thee, man or woman, that hath wrought wickedness in the sight of the LORD thy God, in transgressing his covenant,
17:3 And hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them, either the sun, or moon, or any of the host of heaven, which I have not commanded;
17:4 And it be told thee, and thou hast heard of it, and enquired diligently, and, behold, it be true, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought in Israel:
17:5 Then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman, which have committed that wicked thing, unto thy gates, even that man or that woman, and shalt stone them with stones, till they die.
17:6 At the mouth of two witnesses, or three witnesses, shall he that is worthy of death be put to death; but at the mouth of one witness he shall not be put to death.
17:7 The hands of the witnesses shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterward the hands of all the people. So thou shalt put the evil away from among you.

You know, it's not really paranoia if they really are out to get you.

Well, as I also always say, paranoia is one of the Three Most Beneficial States of Mind (tm) that a person can cultivate.

The Three Most Beneficial States of Mind (tm) are, in the following order:

1) Pessimism, because it prepares us for life's ups and downs;

2) Paranoia, because it keeps us out of trouble; and

3) Desperation, because it broadens our horizons by encouraging us to try new things.

:)

Well, as I also always say, paranoia is one of the Three Most Beneficial States of Mind (tm) that a person can cultivate.

The Three Most Beneficial States of Mind (tm) are, in the following order:

1) Pessimism, because it prepares us for life's ups and downs;

2) Paranoia, because it keeps us out of trouble; and

3) Desperation, because it broadens our horizons by encouraging us to try new things.

:)Nice. Words to live by. And tremble by. :p
I picked it up somewhere along the line, and try to think the same when i'm practicing *whatever* ...
"Perfect paranoia is perfect awareness"

Nice. Words to live by. And tremble by. :p
I picked it up somewhere along the line, and try to think the same when i'm practicing *whatever* ...
"Perfect paranoia is perfect awareness"

Brilliant! I'm going to have that printed on a coffee mug. :D (sigged)

Brilliant! I'm going to have that printed on a coffee mug. :D (sigged)
*bows*
You know, i might even be able to find some better ones in that regard through the works of (and i do mean "works", i do, i do) of Robert Anton Wilson. :D

to the OP:
I'd have a nice laugh when Jezus tells us all he meant Judaism, not Christianity.

Then i'd wonder why we didn't lock this weirdo up with all the other Jezusus (whats the plural of jezus anyway?)

Not to my knowledge. If it had a known group identity, I would have rejected it because organized religion makes me paranoid.


Read my sig ;)

And why the hell is Law and Order about to start its 18th season(not counting the 150 spin-offs) when Quantum Leap only lasted five?!? :(

And what ever happened to "The Misfits of Science!?", that guy who played guitar, and could shoot lightning was awesome when I was a kid!

And whatever happened to "Arthur Treacher's Fish and Chips?!"

IT'S A CLOWN CONSPIRACY, I TELLS YE!!

*flips out*

GACK!

In the spirit of the "sister" thread asking what Christians would do if Jesus were demonstrably proven to not have existed, I present the following scneario:

You wake up one morning and get out of bed, mouth tasting like carpet and your neck aching from that crummy old pillow you've been meaning to replace since back when there was only one Battlestar Galactica and the most controversial thing to come out of the White House was the fate of a conspicuous blue dress. You stumble out into the kitchen to get the cofeemaker going and you absently hit the 'power' button on your TV remote, wishing for the umpteenth time you'd gotten more than just the basic cable package so you could be watching something worthwhile, other than the network newscast.

At first, you don't notice that there's a press conference on, so you pour your cup of coffee and start debating on whether you can get away with wearing the same pair of pants as yesterday, laundry being tomorrow. Eventually you look at the TV and there's some Government official, making the announcement "Ladies and Gentlemen of the World... We have just learned that Jesus of Nazareth, the actual Son of God and the Christ has returned to the Earth, and would like to make a statement." You dig into your ear to be sure you heard right as the mike is turned over to a fellow with a beard and long brown hair, who clears his throat and begins to speak. You don't even hear the sound of your coffee mug crashing to the floor, fallen from your stunned fingers.

So? To you folks who aren't Christian... (and assuming there is no question of the identity of the individual goving the press conference)

What do you do?

well the main thing is it doesn't work that way. it's no accident that 'he' was treated the way that he was. there wouldn't be a 'press confrence' he'd be in 'gitmo', if 'he' even set foot anyplace the u.s. controlls today.

'he' HAS come back (according to baha'is, and i do buy that part of it), not once, not twice, but three times, even as the cock crowed three times somewhere in the book of acts. the first being mohammid and the second and third, in 1844 and 1863 respectively, the bab (gate) and baha'u'llah (the glory).

so who ever was being press confrenced, however spectacular a dog and poney show he may have put on, would almost certainly be some kind of major, possibly alien but all the same, bullshit artist.

god or gods there proabably are, but nothing to do with organized belief, neccessarily has a damd thing to do with any of them.

=^^=
.../\...

I get ready for the war againts Dajjal
:D

"Get your weapon ready men! We'll hijack one of the planes and attack the Dajjal forces in Middle East!!"

Perhaps I should make an RP about this...

Here's the thing - on these very boards I have to accept that there are Mods, who have general rules for what is allowed or not. I can choose to accept those rules or disobey them and I pay the consequences for my decisions.

Yet I can also choose not to write here, I can choose not to play.

This is different to a God who creates this universe, places me in it and then tells me I have to play by certain rules or I will be punished.

I cannot accept that.

It's not just "obey certain rules or be punished," either. It's, "Obey my rules during your short mortal existence, or I will torture you FOR ALL ETERNITY."

Let's just think about the punishment fitting the crime, shall we? You're alive for maybe 80 years, and God will punish you for ETERNITY if you don't spend those 80 years doing what he wants.

This is why I laugh when believers talk about free will. Yeah, God wants us to "choose freely" whether we will worship or not...kind of like how the guy with the gun at my back wants me to "choose freely" whether I'll give him my wallet.

It's not just "obey certain rules or be punished," either. It's, "Obey my rules during your short mortal existence, or I will torture you FOR ALL ETERNITY."

Let's just think about the punishment fitting the crime, shall we? You're alive for maybe 80 years, and God will punish you for ETERNITY if you don't spend those 80 years doing what he wants.

This is why I laugh when believers talk about free will. Yeah, God wants us to "choose freely" whether we will worship or not...kind of like how the guy with the gun at my back wants me to "choose freely" whether I'll give him my wallet.

Exactly the problem i have with all the organized religions out there.

Besides, without a mix of good and bad, wouldnt we stop being able to tell the difference after a few hundred years of either ?

Write him a very angry letter, and ask him to clarify a few fucking rules.
Also, to knock it off with the "parables and metaphor crap".
People are righteously stupid, and its about time he be a little more friggin specific.

Besides, without a mix of good and bad, wouldnt we stop being able to tell the difference after a few hundred years of either ?
Erm, why would we? My comprehension of goodness does not require badness or evil. I don't need to feel sad in order to feel happy.

Remember, the entire dualistic concept is bunk. It's not good or evil, it's a huge range between extremes of good and evil. There's a large swath of neutral right in the middle. You don't need the evil side of the spectrum in order for the good side to exist.

Start assembling wood, because every second coming needs a second crucifixion.

:rolleyes: Hi word will cut deeper than your knife would ever think about.This is a hypthetical situation in which Jesus would be the tyrant the likes of which Fred Phelps dreams of. Such a deity would deserve to be destroyed.

Listen to what he has to say. Weigh his words and if any good he gets brownie points, possibly some respect. If not, find the flaws and have nice debates on NSG.

I care for the message - not the messenger. Though I admit a hot female Jesus would get more leeway.

Though I admit a hot female Jesus would get more leeway.
Heh, while we're being hypothetical, can you imagine that?

What if the Second Coming rolls around, but it turns out that wires were crossed when the original story was written and Mary Magdalene was actually the Christ.

What do you do?

Change the channel, obv.

What if the Second Coming rolls around, but it turns out that wires were crossed when the original story was written and Mary Magdalene was actually the Christ.

Half naked woman on the cross... much better.
It would be devastating for many churches though. Why for instance can there be no female pope ? Why is the priesthood closed to females ?

Then again - a female preaching female subservience is not that good for feminists either.

Take your own advice and read my WHOLE post, darling. It's fundamental, doncha know.

Actually, I did. I chose only to comment on your little dig. See?

Actually, I did. I chose only to comment on your little dig. See?
Yes, I see that you are very determined to mount your high horse. But why would you want to point it out so explicitly?

I love all these witty "I don't give a damn" type responses. Truth is that if Jesus was back on earth right now, all the people would be on there knees bowing and praising him.

Would I? Why would I? :confused:

Half naked woman on the cross... much better.
It would be devastating for many churches though. Why for instance can there be no female pope ? Why is the priesthood closed to females ?

Then again - a female preaching female subservience is not that good for feminists either.
Well, if the gender of the Messiah had been reversed then it might also reasonably follow that other pronouns had been...misplaced. So it might turn out that God really wants men to be subservient to women. Which would be fascinating for me, since I would want to know if all the gung-ho Christian soldiers who so bravely embrace female submission would likewise bow before God's will (as they themselves direct women to do).

I also love all the answers that presume to take a moral highground over God.

Why?

Erm, why would we? My comprehension of goodness does not require badness or evil. I don't need to feel sad in order to feel happy.

Remember, the entire dualistic concept is bunk. It's not good or evil, it's a huge range between extremes of good and evil. There's a large swath of neutral right in the middle. You don't need the evil side of the spectrum in order for the good side to exist.

Obvously our comprehension of happyness doesnt need unhappyness, we can see enough unhappyness just by turning on a news channel.
What i meant is, if we take a relativly short part of eternity, say, 10.000years. Wouldnt the goodness of heaven become the average ? So instead of heaven being bliss, happyness, etc, it would just be normal. Basically, heaven would just end up being like normal life. (interesting side tangent: what if our world is just the heaven of some unimaginably worse world ?)

Well, if the gender of the Messiah had been reversed then it might also reasonably follow that other pronouns had been...misplaced. So it might turn out that God really wants men to be subservient to women. Which would be fascinating for me, since I would want to know if all the gung-ho Christian soldiers who so bravely embrace female submission would likewise bow before God's will (as they themselves direct women to do).

Not a chance. They'd disregard the new information, as religious people tend to when they find a part of their holy text that they don't like the look of.

its more than an enternal like of bowing. Yes, we will spend eternity praising him, but its not like that is all there is to it. There will be a new heaven and earth made, and we that are there will be given gifts and responsibilities to carry out for the glory of God. So, imagine a small village type life on earth now, minus death, sickness, hate, war, and all the other bad things we have. A life of peace, and eternal joy. I can't think of anything better.


Well, I can. I can't help it if you don't have enough immagination...


I think you have missed the point entirely. As christians, our main goal is not to get into heaven. that is what it has been made into lately, but its not the main goal. the main goal is a discipled life for Christ, and to be in communion with our lord and creator. So its not about getting into heaven, or avoiding hell. If you want stakes like that, then go follow Islam. Like I posted previously, there will be those that will claim his name, but will not do his will, and will end up in line for eternal seperation from God.

So, what good do you think you're doing in harassing people who just simply don't want that?
Be a good Christian and leave us heathens in peace, please.



What about evidence of his miracles in life, his death and resurrection, and appearance to over 500 people before ascending to heaven?

What evidence?

I also love all the answers that presume to take a moral highground over God.
If you're talking about the Judeo-Christian God, then yes I can comfortably say that I take a massive moral highground over him, for obvious reasons. The most obvious being that I don't think that the willingness to commit infanticide because I hear schizophrenic voices in my head to be the height of 'morality'. Sorry, but even as small children do, I can see through the man-made veil of religion. Religion is simply a reflection of our own morality and ethical views, it's just a primitive attempt to give these views a higher credence by associating with them with the divine. This is bad because it distracts from the fact that we are moral beings, we don't need a God to know what's right and wrong. It's not like the Hebrews didn't know murder and theft was a bad thing because they got the 10 commandments. Morality is innate, not external.

Why?

Because God being the Creator of course means he is always right.
Just like your parents are always right. They after all created you. Now wipe your feet ;)

Yes, I see that you are very determined to mount your high horse. But why would you want to point it out so explicitly?

Coming from you, an accusation of being on a moral high horse strikes me as ironic, but very well. I'll answer in the spirit in which the question was asked.

When I presented a hypothetical scenario, specifically describing the given circumstances, most people had no trouble just presenting their opinion. For whatever reason, either because you think it gives you status, makes me look bad, or you just can't resist, you seemed to take a swipe at me about how you don't know what kind of world I live in but yadda yadda yadda... And how there's plenty of fake Jesuses etc. What was that about? Just throwing out a dig for the hell of it? That's precisely why I specified that in this hypothetical, the identity of the speaker wasn't in question. So either you missed that point entirely, your you just can't help taking a swipe. Either way, it's annoying because it wastes time and does not foster communication.

Why?

Here's the thing. If we accept the premise that God is omniscient, and for purposed of this hypothetical scenario we accept the premise that Jesus exists, is who He says He is, and returns to the earth, then people who hold themselves in judgement of God and/or Jesus are presuming to have superior knowledge, understanding and perspective to an omniscient Being.

Which I find so incredibly arrogant as to be humorous.

Here's the thing. If we accept the premise that God is omniscient, and for purposed of this hypothetical scenario we accept the premise that Jesus exists, is who He says He is, and returns to the earth, then people who hold themselves in judgement of God and/or Jesus are presuming to have superior knowledge, understanding and perspective to an omniscient Being.

Which I find so incredibly arrogant as to be humorous.

*shrug*. I like to make mistakes. It means I can learn something.

What I find both arrogant and humerous is that people assume that humanities - and especially their own - interests are the most important thing to God.

Not a chance. They'd disregard the new information, as religious people tend to when they find a part of their holy text that they don't like the look of.

I would guess that it might lead to another fractioning of Christianity... some might believe it, others will declare it heresy and false prophets. It has happened before.

Here's the thing. If we accept the premise that God is omniscient, and for purposed of this hypothetical scenario we accept the premise that Jesus exists, is who He says He is, and returns to the earth, then people who hold themselves in judgement of God and/or Jesus are presuming to have superior knowledge, understanding and perspective to an omniscient Being.

Which I find so incredibly arrogant as to be humorous.Why that?

Because God being the Creator of course means he is always right.
Just like your parents are always right. They after all created you. Now wipe your feet ;)

Bollocks.

My father may have "created" me, but that doesn't change the fact that he's an immoral, selfish, arrogant arsehole. ;)

*shrug*. I like to make mistakes. It means I can learn something.

What I find both arrogant and humerous is that people assume that humanities - and especially their own - interests are the most important thing to God.

It's not an assumption at all. He tells us so.

Why that?

Why what..? I'm not sure what you're asking.

What evidence?

You know, that one book they have. The one that got written down decades after their messiahs death, translated, lost, found again, mistranslated, lost again, found once more, mistranslated some more, added to, added out.

That evidence ;)

Never mind that any DA worth his salt would laugh in the face of the person wanting to use this as evidence for anything (except how time ravages everything).

It's not an assumption at all. He tells us so.

Of course. The supreme creator of the vast universe, where we occupy an insignificant corner in a spiral arm, thinks us the most important thing in it. Anything that is in our interest, no matter how much it would hurt God, Angels or those aliens living on some distant planet is obviously something he would aspire to without hesitation. Cause he says so.

How arrogant must you be to actually believe that ?

Why what..? I'm not sure what you're asking.Why do you find people thinking they have "superior knowledge, understanding and perspective to an omniscient Being" arrogant? And who would the people with the inferior knowledge, understanding and perspective be?

its more than an enternal like of bowing. Yes, we will spend eternity praising him, but its not like that is all there is to it. There will be a new heaven and earth made, and we that are there will be given gifts and responsibilities to carry out for the glory of God. So, imagine a small village type life on earth now, minus death, sickness, hate, war, and all the other bad things we have. A life of peace, and eternal joy. I can't think of anything better.


So let me get this straight. When i go to heaven ill have to live in a friggin little village and ill get a bunch of chores to do? Are you sure your not describing hell instead?

You know, that one book they have. The one that got written down decades after their messiahs death, translated, lost, found again, mistranslated, lost again, found once more, mistranslated some more, added to, added out.

That evidence ;)

Never mind that any DA worth his salt would laugh in the face of the person wanting to use this as evidence for anything (except how time ravages everything).

Ovid's Methamorphoses?
The Egyptian Book of the Dead?
Gilgamesh?
The Edda?

;)

I would be surprised. Very surprised.

What would surprise me more is if he turned out to be remotely like everyone thinks he should be.

Of course. The supreme creator of the vast universe, where we occupy an insignificant corner in a spiral arm, thinks us the most important thing in it. Anything that is in our interest, no matter how much it would hurt God, Angels or those aliens living on some distant planet is obviously something he would aspire to without hesitation. Cause he says so.

How arrogant must you be to actually believe that ?

Humans can be amazingly egocentric.
People used to believe that the whole universe is centered around them. It just takes a little more time for some of us to realise that's not quite what's going on, while others can accept and move on.
Humans are funny that way.

Humans can be amazingly egocentric.
People used to believe that the whole universe is centered around them. It just takes a little more time for some of us to realise that's not quite what's going on, while others can accept and move on.
Humans are funny that way.

Wait ? You mean...the world doesn't revolve around me ?:eek:

<breaks down in sobbing>

;)

Wait ? You mean...the world doesn't revolve around me ?:eek:

What is your mass ;) ?

What is your mass ;) ?

I never preach mas ;)

Of course. The supreme creator of the vast universe, where we occupy an insignificant corner in a spiral arm, thinks us the most important thing in it. Anything that is in our interest, no matter how much it would hurt God, Angels or those aliens living on some distant planet is obviously something he would aspire to without hesitation. Cause he says so.

How arrogant must you be to actually believe that ?

If you accept the premise the Bible is accurate, then 'He says so' is good enough. There's no arrogance in that. Although I'd also point out that the perspective you're using, that of us being insignificant in an insignificant place, should be re-examined. If God DOES care that much, then it's reasonable to conclude that we mean more than just that. It isn't arrogance, it's logical.

Why do you find people thinking they have "superior knowledge, understanding and perspective to an omniscient Being" arrogant?

Because to assume greater knowledge, understanding and perspective than that of an omniscient Being is to presume omniscience for oneself. In fact, it goes a step beyond because it implies a level greater than infinity.


And who would the people with the inferior knowledge, understanding and perspective be?

That would be us. Our (as a people) knowledge is incomplete. We know this. (Unless you mean to suggest you know, say, exactly how many stars are in the Andromeda Galaxy). Our understanding is incomplete. (Unless you want to explain to us exactly what lies beyond the Event Horizon of a black hole. Not theory, fact.) Our perspective is limited. (We can't even see all the stars in our own galaxy from here because of interference from the galactic core.)

God however, DOES know all of those things. And those are comparatively mundane examples.

Because to assume greater knowledge, understanding and perspective than that of an omniscient Being is to presume omniscience for oneself. In fact, it goes a step beyond because it implies a level greater than infinity.



That would be us. Our (as a people) knowledge is incomplete. We know this. (Unless you mean to suggest you know, say, exactly how many stars are in the Andromeda Galaxy). Our understanding is incomplete. (Unless you want to explain to us exactly what lies beyond the Event Horizon of a black hole. Not theory, fact.) Our perspective is limited. (We can't even see all the stars in our own galaxy from here because of interference from the galactic core.)

God however, DOES know all of those things. And those are comparatively mundane examples.You must be confusing me with a devout believer or athiest :D

I'm an agnostic. I know that I know nothing. :)

Because to assume greater knowledge, understanding and perspective than that of an omniscient Being is to presume omniscience for oneself. In fact, it goes a step beyond because it implies a level greater than infinity.


You work as a software developer, right?
Who would you value more as a colleague or team member? Someone who would come to you with every tiny little question, because you are his boss and know more about the job than he does, until you basically do all his work for him? Or someone who looks at the problem, finds the information by doing research and using his own brain, and maybe even discovers a way how to do things more efficiently?

It's the same with morals. I'd rather rely on my own inate morals, I KNOW what's right and wrong, and if I don't some research, information and thinking about the problem will get me there. I don't need anyone telling me what's right or wrong, and it doesn't matter if they're Nobel peace price winners or a supreme being. I'd rather trust my own judgement.

You work as a software developer, right?
Who would you value more as a colleague or team member? Someone who would come to you with every tiny little question, because you are his boss and know more about the job than he does, until you basically do all his work for him? Or someone who looks at the problem, finds the information by doing research and using his own brain, and maybe even discovers a way how to do things more efficiently?

It's the same with morals. I'd rather rely on my own inate morals, I KNOW what's right and wrong, and if I don't some research, information and thinking about the problem will get me there. I don't need anyone telling me what's right or wrong, and it doesn't matter if they're Nobel peace price winners or a supreme being. I'd rather trust my own judgement.

I agree with you, but look at it this way... I used to be a team leader and often had to deal with both types... the ones with a million questions and the ones who figured it out themselves. Both are what they are... But what if someone came in who presumed to have more knowledge than me (even though he didn't), and refused to listen to my directions. Would you not consider that person arrogant?

I agree with you, but look at it this way... I used to be a team leader and often had to deal with both types... the ones with a million questions and the ones who figured it out themselves. Both are what they are... But what if someone came in who presumed to have more knowledge than me (even though he didn't), and refused to listen to my directions. Would you not consider that person arrogant?

You know, thats precisely how religious people come across to an atheist like me.

I agree with you, but look at it this way... I used to be a team leader and often had to deal with both types... the ones with a million questions and the ones who figured it out themselves. Both are what they are... But what if someone came in who presumed to have more knowledge than me (even though he didn't), and refused to listen to my directions. Would you not consider that person arrogant?

If they assumed they knew everything and refused to either listen or do research and learn for themselves, yes.

I tend to get that attitude a lot from Christians here who assume to know more than I do, and to even know more about myself than I do ;)

If someone sees the same data I see, but arrives at a different conclusion or interpretation than I do, but both ways work, why would I care? There's more than one way to Rome, and more than one way of being a decent moral person ;)

In the spirit of the "sister" thread asking what Christians would do if Jesus were demonstrably proven to not have existed, I present the following scneario:

You wake up one morning and get out of bed, mouth tasting like carpet and your neck aching from that crummy old pillow you've been meaning to replace since back when there was only one Battlestar Galactica and the most controversial thing to come out of the White House was the fate of a conspicuous blue dress. You stumble out into the kitchen to get the cofeemaker going and you absently hit the 'power' button on your TV remote, wishing for the umpteenth time you'd gotten more than just the basic cable package so you could be watching something worthwhile, other than the network newscast.

At first, you don't notice that there's a press conference on, so you pour your cup of coffee and start debating on whether you can get away with wearing the same pair of pants as yesterday, laundry being tomorrow. Eventually you look at the TV and there's some Government official, making the announcement "Ladies and Gentlemen of the World... We have just learned that Jesus of Nazareth, the actual Son of God and the Christ has returned to the Earth, and would like to make a statement." You dig into your ear to be sure you heard right as the mike is turned over to a fellow with a beard and long brown hair, who clears his throat and begins to speak. You don't even hear the sound of your coffee mug crashing to the floor, fallen from your stunned fingers.

So? To you folks who aren't Christian... (and assuming there is no question of the identity of the individual goving the press conference)

What do you do?

I say "Holy Shit another person who thinks he's Jesus. We just can't lock these psychos up quick enough!"

You know, thats precisely how religious people come across to an atheist like me.

That often goes both ways, my friend. You'd be surprised.

If they assumed they knew everything and refused to either listen or do research and learn for themselves, yes.

I tend to get that attitude a lot from Christians here who assume to know more than I do, and to even know more about myself than I do ;)

If someone sees the same data I see, but arrives at a different conclusion or interpretation than I do, but both ways work, why would I care? There's more than one way to Rome, and more than one way of being a decent moral person ;)

And that's the key... Seeing the same data you see. For our part, as humans, if we accept the premise that God is real and is who He says He is, then there's a LOT that he sees that we don't, so for us to presume to judge Him is, IMHO, comical in the extreme.

I say "Holy Shit another person who thinks he's Jesus. We just can't lock these psychos up quick enough!"
(and assuming there is no question of the identity of the individual goving the press conference)

Reading is Fundamental.

Reading is Fundamental.
You keep saying that, but your original post is actually pretty unclear about what you meant. I mean, you say "assuming there is no question of the identity of the individual goving the press conference," but that just means there's no question about the identity of that individual. Lots of people are replying by saying, essentially, that to them there's no question that he's a kook.

I generally don't bag on people for making relatively small errors like this, or for the fact that their words could be easily interpreted to mean something other than what they intended, but you're choosing to insult anybody who didn't interpret your vague words the way you wanted them to.

Given that SO MANY PEOPLE are interpreting your post differently than you intended, and given that many of those people are obviously not total morons, maybe you should consider revising your post to make it more clear.

Unless you'd just rather keep insulting people.

What do you do?

I walk up to Jesus and say to him, "Klaatu barada nikto".

And that's the key... Seeing the same data you see. For our part, as humans, if we accept the premise that God is real and is who He says He is, then there's a LOT that he sees that we don't, so for us to presume to judge Him is, IMHO, comical in the extreme.


Which is why, in your assumed scenario, Jesus would have a lot to answer for ;)
I'm very human insofar as I don't accept truths without explanations. And I'm too deeply democratic and place too much value on equality to worship anyone or anything, sorry.

Hmm, so atheist are truly everywhere. Unless at my RL surrounding (hell, the government will capture everyone atheist/agnostic, not that I protest but)

Which is why, in your assumed scenario, Jesus would have a lot to answer for ;)
I'm very human insofar as I don't accept truths without explanations. And I'm too deeply democratic and place too much value on equality to worship anyone or anything, sorry.

Not even sex or chocolate :eek:

You keep saying that, but your original post is actually pretty unclear about what you meant. I mean, you say "assuming there is no question of the identity of the individual goving the press conference," but that just means there's no question about the identity of that individual. Lots of people are replying by saying, essentially, that to them there's no question that he's a kook.

I generally don't bag on people for making relatively small errors like this, or for the fact that their words could be easily interpreted to mean something other than what they intended, but you're choosing to insult anybody who didn't interpret your vague words the way you wanted them to.

Given that SO MANY PEOPLE are interpreting your post differently than you intended, and given that many of those people are obviously not total morons, maybe you should consider revising your post to make it more clear.

Unless you'd just rather keep insulting people.

It's not my intent to be insulting, although I recognize that people may find it to be. Your point is well taken but I would point out that in most of these cases, people who say stuff like that aren't simply misunderstanding. If you did, fine but that's not the way I'm reading most of these. It's more like people are taking the opportunity to remind us for the umpteenth time just how ludicrous they find the idea of God and/or Jesus to such an extreme that they can't even accept the premise as a hypothetical.

I know there are a couple exceptions to that, and they are noted.

Which is why, in your assumed scenario, Jesus would have a lot to answer for ;)
I'm very human insofar as I don't accept truths without explanations. And I'm too deeply democratic and place too much value on equality to worship anyone or anything, sorry.

I'm not sure understand how you mean?

And I find it amusing that you scold us non-believers for arrogance, when you are arrogant enough to presume to tell us what god wants us to do. Who are you in the universe, and more to the point, who do you think you are? Understand this: We don't know anything about your god that you haven't told us, and you're just another shlub like any other on the street, so maybe, just maybe, it's not your god we are doubting and dissing. Maybe it's you. Did it ever occur to you that it is your description of your god we are disbelieving, not the god himself. Or have you been assuming that when you speak, we believe? Do you think, when you type your little explanations and click "submit" that you are revealing some deep spiritual truths which we will either affirm or deny, but which our souls will recognize, so that no matter what we say about it (good or bad) we know we are talking about a true description of an almighty god?

Sorry, NB, but no. All we are talking about is your stories and speeches and presumptions. There is no god in this discussion at all. Only people.
/cheer

Spot on.

<snip>

Here's the thing. If we accept the premise that God is omniscient, and for purposed of this hypothetical scenario we accept the premise that Jesus exists, is who He says He is, and returns to the earth, then people who hold themselves in judgement of God and/or Jesus are presuming to have superior knowledge, understanding and perspective to an omniscient Being.

Which I find so incredibly arrogant as to be humorous.

It's not an assumption at all. He tells us so.



If you accept the premise the Bible is accurate, then 'He says so' is good enough. There's no arrogance in that. Although I'd also point out that the perspective you're using, that of us being insignificant in an insignificant place, should be re-examined. If God DOES care that much, then it's reasonable to conclude that we mean more than just that. It isn't arrogance, it's logical.

<snip>


See, um...you keep saying "he knows" and "we know" and "he tells us so," but all I hear is "believe it because I said so." I don't hear a god saying any of these things or making any of these claims about himself. I only hear you and other people saying it, and why should I listen to you?

I am just not persuaded by arguments that are entirely predicated on an "if we accept this premise" premise. I don't accept the premise -- any of your premises.

I do not believe that your Bible is accurate about anything. I do not believe it ever had (or was meant to have) any historical validity, and I believe it has been so compromised as a text (by use and misuse) that it has little theological or mystical validity, either.

I do not believe that your god relates to people the way you say he does, because what Christians say about that relationship is so inconsistent and has so many holes in it and is connected haphazardly to so many different human agendas, that it makes no sense at all. You talk and talk about who your god is and what he does and what he wants and what he will do for me, but I can't help feeling that you are just making it up, or just repeating gossip you heard somewhere. I feel like I'm talking to someone who is pretending to have met Tom Cruise and bragging about it but, in fact, never laid eyes on the man and is banking on the likelihood that I've never met hiim, either, and so won't know fact from fiction. But the fact is, I may have never had any experience of your god, but I have had plenty of experience listening to self-serving fictions - enough to make me doubt everything you say.

And I find it amusing that you scold us non-believers for arrogance, when you are arrogant enough to presume to tell us what god wants us to do. Who are you in the universe, and more to the point, who do you think you are? Understand this: We don't know anything about your god that you haven't told us, and you're just another shlub like any other on the street, so maybe, just maybe, it's not your god we are doubting and dissing. Maybe it's you. Did it ever occur to you that it is your description of your god we are disbelieving, not the god himself. Or have you been assuming that when you speak, we believe? Do you think, when you type your little explanations and click "submit" that you are revealing some deep spiritual truths which we will either affirm or deny, but which our souls will recognize, so that no matter what we say about it (good or bad) we know we are talking about a true description of an almighty god?

Sorry, NB, but no. All we are talking about is your stories and speeches and presumptions. There is no god in this discussion at all. Only people.

What do you do?wonder why the risen son of almighty god is resorting to a press conference?

it wouldn't particularly change anything. I left the church assuming that the god I had been worshiping was real, but was a jackass I refused to worship. I've since grown up and realized that the calvinist deity I worshiped could never be real and that the bible is a product of history and not divine revelation (one which most protestants do not even know how to read) - but in the event this supposition is proven wrong, I'd still go to hell as a conscientious objector to that particular god, who would be damning people I loved anyway - I already lived with the assumption that's exactly what would happen, this wouldn't change anything.

It's not my intent to be insulting, although I recognize that people may find it to be. Your point is well taken but I would point out that in most of these cases, people who say stuff like that aren't simply misunderstanding. If you did, fine but that's not the way I'm reading most of these. It's more like people are taking the opportunity to remind us for the umpteenth time just how ludicrous they find the idea of God and/or Jesus to such an extreme that they can't even accept the premise as a hypothetical.

I know there are a couple exceptions to that, and they are noted.



I'm not sure understand how you mean?
Well, in fairness, NB, you and some others around here take umpteen opportunities to tell us how perfect and wonderful you find the idea of God and/or Jesus and how arrogant and funny you think it is that anyone doesn't share your belief, to the extreme that you can't just accept the fact (not hypothetical) that we don't share it and take a break from telling us how wrong we are, over and over and over.

There's plenty of pushing going on, from both directions.

It's not my intent to be insulting, although I recognize that people may find it to be. Your point is well taken but I would point out that in most of these cases, people who say stuff like that aren't simply misunderstanding. If you did, fine but that's not the way I'm reading most of these. It's more like people are taking the opportunity to remind us for the umpteenth time just how ludicrous they find the idea of God and/or Jesus to such an extreme that they can't even accept the premise as a hypothetical.

You asked people what they thought. They answered. Forgive me for having no sympathy for you if you don't like the answer you got.

You ask me to envision a particular scenario. My honest reaction to that scenario (which seems to be a common one) would be to doubt it. If I am then asked to suspend my doubt, then my honest reaction is to say that I still think Jesus and the Abrahamic God are ludicrous and undeserving of worship.

Lots of people don't like your God-image. If you don't want to hear about their dislike, DON'T ASK THEM TO TELL YOU ABOUT IT.

Not to my knowledge. If it had a known group identity, I would have rejected it because organized religion makes me paranoid.

Actually, I do not belong to any group. I practice privately the folk religion traditions of several European cultures, reflecting my mixed Euro ancestry, but all overlaid with, well, you know, being a New Yorker living in Massachusetts. Not much point in setting out milk for the domovoy in Bean Town, but venerating the ghosts of the Revolution, on the other hand...

So your personal belief is a conglomeration (not to put a negative spin on the phrase) of other, pre-existing traditions, with a little modern flavor? That's pretty interesting. It's surprising how many people I know who hold beliefs like that. One of my good friends, and a former room mate, believes in what can best be described as the "best parts" of Jainism, Hinduism, Buddhism, etc. mixed together into something that makes sense pretty much exclusively for him.

See, um...you keep saying "he knows" and "we know" and "he tells us so," but all I hear is "believe it because I said so." I don't hear a god saying any of these things or making any of these claims about himself. I only hear you and other people saying it, and why should I listen to you?

I'm not asking you to listen to me. Never have. My source is the Bible and yes, it does specifically say the things I'm talking about. More on that later:


I am just not persuaded by arguments that are entirely predicated on an "if we accept this premise" premise. I don't accept the premise -- any of your premises.

What arguments? This entire thread is based upon a hypothetical. If you don't like hypotheticals then don't bother with it. Nowhere in it have I tried to prove anything. That's why I keep saying 'if you accept the premise..." precisely because it's a hypothetical. If you don't accept the premise then it's all moot so there's no point going any further.


I do not believe that your Bible is accurate about anything. I do not believe it ever had (or was meant to have) any historical validity, and I believe it has been so compromised as a text (by use and misuse) that it has little theological or mystical validity, either.


I know that. And I know how much you delight in saying so.


I do not believe that your god relates to people the way you say he does, because what Christians say about that relationship is so inconsistent and has so many holes in it and is connected haphazardly to so many different human agendas, that it makes no sense at all. You talk and talk about who your god is and what he does and what he wants and what he will do for me, but I can't help feeling that you are just making it up, or just repeating gossip you heard somewhere. I feel like I'm talking to someone who is pretending to have met Tom Cruise and bragging about it but, in fact, never laid eyes on the man and is banking on the likelihood that I've never met hiim, either, and so won't know fact from fiction. But the fact is, I may have never had any experience of your god, but I have had plenty of experience listening to self-serving fictions - enough to make me doubt everything you say.


In terms of this thread, everything I've said has been deliberately hypothetical precisely because the intended audience of the thread is non-Christians. Since non-Christians are people who don't believe in the Bible or any of that 'Christian stuff' then any discussion of the issues therin MUST be hypothetical for the purpose of discussion.


And I find it amusing that you scold us non-believers for arrogance, when you are arrogant enough to presume to tell us what god wants us to do.


Now you're crossing a line so I invite you to back off. I'm not scoring non-believers for arrogance. I have been quite clear so there's no excuse for you saying this. My arrogance comments were directed specifically at those who, within this hypothetical scenario, would presume to judge a supreme Being.

I know you have a chip on your shoulder, and I know how proud of it you are, but the least you can do is keep it in context.

I'm snipping the rest of that paragraph because it argues against something I'm not doing so I have no response for it.

There's plenty of pushing going on, from both directions.
In this thread, I don't think atheists can be accused of that sort of "pushing," since the OP specifically asks them to share their thoughts on this subject.

If I ask a religious believer a specific question about his beliefs, I don't get to turn around and whine that he's pushing his beliefs on me when he answers my question.

NB, what's wrong with judging a Supreme Being? I guess I might be seeing this through the lens of being a former Hindu, since Hindu mythology in particular is rife with judgment of the various gods and goddesses that make up the Hindu pantheon. I don't see why, if we are expected to be judged by god, we can't judge him in turn for his actions, particularly those murderous actions found in the OT.

Well, in fairness, NB, you and some others around here take umpteen opportunities to tell us how perfect and wonderful you find the idea of God and/or Jesus and how arrogant and funny you think it is that anyone doesn't share your belief, to the extreme that you can't just accept the fact (not hypothetical) that we don't share it and take a break from telling us how wrong we are, over and over and over.

There's plenty of pushing going on, from both directions.

Others maybe, but show me where I've pushed my belief on anybody else.

I elaborated on the rest in my other post, but suffice it to say I think you're projecting a lot of your angst on me. Sometimes I provoke it, sometimes I don't, but I know you're misunderstanding me now.

And I'm pretty sure you won't admit it.

My arrogance comments were directed specifically at those who, within this hypothetical scenario, would presume to judge a supreme Being.I had the impression that it was only for those that judge the supreme being as immoral. Those that judge it to be the worshipful supreme being weren't labelled as arrogant.

NB, what's wrong with judging a Supreme Being? I guess I might be seeing this through the lens of being a former Hindu, since Hindu mythology in particular is rife with judgment of the various gods and goddesses that make up the Hindu pantheon. I don't see why, if we are expected to be judged by god, we can't judge him in turn for his actions, particularly those murderous actions found in the OT.
Exactly.

Personally, I'd be deeply afraid of any human who WOULDN'T judge a supreme being. After all, what if that being is malevolent? To our limited human perceptions, the Devil would probably appear to be a supreme being. Satan is supposed to be this great trickster, and is certainly able to befuddle humans when he wants to, which kind of leads one to conclude that you shouldn't blindly follow every fantastically powerful being who comes along.

NB, what's wrong with judging a Supreme Being? I guess I might be seeing this through the lens of being a former Hindu, since Hindu mythology in particular is rife with judgment of the various gods and goddesses that make up the Hindu pantheon. I don't see why, if we are expected to be judged by god, we can't judge him in turn for his actions, particularly those murderous actions found in the OT.

If that's the way it works in the Hindu system then I can see where it might seem strange that someone like me would find that nonsensical. In the Judeo-Christian point of view, one of the givens is that God has the 'big picture' perspective and we don't, so things that we might find troubling or confusing are only so because we don't see it the way He does.

One of the big criticisms, especially in OT terms, is of people being wiped out as in the Flood or the cities of Soddom and Gomorrah. People see this as mass murder which, in any case here on Earth, is a crime that should be answered for.

But from God's perspective, maybe it's a simple matter of bringing those people home, or removing them from the Earth to avoid some other disaster down the line that we can only guess at. Remember that to God, life and death are concepts that He has complete control over, and that death is not the end.

In this thread, I don't think atheists can be accused of that sort of "pushing," since the OP specifically asks them to share their thoughts on this subject.

If I ask a religious believer a specific question about his beliefs, I don't get to turn around and whine that he's pushing his beliefs on me when he answers my question.

Like I said, I am not pushing anything. Every single remark I've made has been within the context of this hypothetical example. IF Jesus were demonstrably true THEN IMHO it's arrogant to hold oneself over him.

I haven't said a word to the people who have said other stuff like "I wouldn't care" or "I wouldn't follow him because I don't like him" because while I'd disagree with that, at least they're being consistent.

I had the impression that it was only for those that judge the supreme being as immoral. Those that judge it to be the worshipful supreme being weren't labelled as arrogant.

I don't know why that would be arrogant, considering such people are acknowledging that omniscience and submitting to it.

Not even sex or chocolate :eek:

As the goddess of chocolate and sex, I GET worshipped. Not the other way round :D

I'm not sure understand how you mean?

Well, assuming my TL/manager knows an awful lot more than me, and asks me to do things a certain way and not another, I'll want to know why.

NB, what's wrong with judging a Supreme Being? I guess I might be seeing this through the lens of being a former Hindu, since Hindu mythology in particular is rife with judgment of the various gods and goddesses that make up the Hindu pantheon. I don't see why, if we are expected to be judged by god, we can't judge him in turn for his actions, particularly those murderous actions found in the OT.
http://www.irreligion.org/wp-content/uploads/2007/04/god-v-satan.png
I don't know why that would be arrogant, considering such people are acknowledging that omniscience and submitting to it.

Why would anyone submit to an omniscient being? Do you submit to people who know more than you? Maybe we should all have a knowledge comparison contest to see who gets to rule the world.

I don't know why that would be arrogant, considering such people are acknowledging that omniscience and submitting to it.

Acknowledging omniscience, yes. Acknowledging unbroken eternal benevolence, no.

As Bottle said, from what I know and hear about the god of the bible, I can't see him to be benevolent in any way, sorry. And I'm not going to submit to omniscience for its own sake. You are free to call that arrogant if you like, but I've learned to always distrust authority and to always question it, no matter what.

You asked people what they thought. They answered. Forgive me for having no sympathy for you if you don't like the answer you got.

You ask me to envision a particular scenario. My honest reaction to that scenario (which seems to be a common one) would be to doubt it. If I am then asked to suspend my doubt, then my honest reaction is to say that I still think Jesus and the Abrahamic God are ludicrous and undeserving of worship.

Lots of people don't like your God-image. If you don't want to hear about their dislike, DON'T ASK THEM TO TELL YOU ABOUT IT.

So what are you saying? That simply because I'm the OP I can't call somebody out when I think they're being unreasonable? Ask yourself this: Would YOU hesitate to call somebody out on a thread you started if you tought their answer was irrational or beside the point?

Of course you wouldn't.

Well, assuming my TL/manager knows an awful lot more than me, and asks me to do things a certain way and not another, I'll want to know why.

OIC. When you said a lot to answer for, I took that to mean that in an authoritative demanding context like if a mom says to her son: "Young man, if I get home from the market and your homework still isn't done, you'll have a lot to answer for!"

Maybe it's a cultural thing.

Anywho, I agree that there would be a cubic buttload of questions from all sides, and He'd be inundated. It would be a long press conference indeed ;)