NationStates Jolt Archive

Should prostitution be legalized?

yes. If the woman needs a job and someone is willing to sleep with her for money, it's a good thing. There are people who won't ever get to sleep with anyone and this would be their only way. Otherwise, they would be unhappy.

It is legalized.

Just to say, "It's no longer a crime!" then stand back? No.

But regulated like any other business? Especially one that markets a product that like food and drugs could be hazardous if not properly inspected? Definitely.

Or as George Carlin puts it: "Selling is legal. Fucking is legal. Why isn't selling fucking legal?"

I think that it should, it provides jobs for people.

No. Women and thier dignity are no longer objects to be bought and sold, used and abused.

However, I would be in full support of moves to keep prying government eyes out of the bedroom.

No. Women and thier dignity are no longer objects to be bought and sold, used and abused.Surely when men engage in selling themselves and their dignity it's called prostitution as well?

Just to say, "It's no longer a crime!" then stand back? No.

But regulated like any other business? Especially one that markets a product that like food and drugs could be hazardous if not properly inspected? Definitely.

Or as George Carlin puts it: "Selling is legal. Fucking is legal. Why isn't selling fucking legal?"

QFT

Require mandatory check ups.
Require safe sex.
Provide Legal protection from abusive customers
requires a licence to work.

Yes.

But, either it should be regulated to keep the girls safe by testing everyone for STDs and having many social programs to get out for those that wish to as well as a safe place to do business.
Or prostitution should be legal but hiring them should not (opposite of Thailand). In this case there should also be social programs.

My general preference is the first option although I wouldn't mind the second one but I'm strongly against punishing the prostitutes. They have enough problems as it is.

Should prostitution be legalized?

It is legal :)

Yes, but strictly regulated. It shouldn't be legal so people can have a quick fuck for some money (how much does a prostitute cost btw? I've always wondered), but to better protect the workers. It's going to happen anyway if it's not legal so why not make the best of it?

Should prostitution be legalized?

Yes.

Well pardon my unwitting sexism. In retrospect, Men and thier dignity are no longer products to be bought and sold either. Happy?

What does prostitution have to do with dignity if I may ask?

Surely when men engage in selling themselves and their dignity it's called prostitution as well?

Well pardon my unwitting sexism. In retrospect, Men and thier dignity are no longer products to be bought and sold either. Happy?

Prostitution should be like any other job with an equivilant health risk. That is, monitored and regulated to ensure the safety of all involved.

Well pardon my unwitting sexism. In retrospect, Men and thier dignity are no longer products to be bought and sold either. Happy?

You should make sure that LG and the other clowns know this. You know, since they're paid to make fools out of themselves in front of audiences(in between plotting to take over the world).

wait, it's not legal?

crap.... now I have to pay them all back!

As logn as they take up the trade of their own free will and aren't forced or pressured into it, by people or circumstances.
(But really, that should be a premise for every job, in an ideal world)

As logn as they take up the trade of their own free will and aren't forced or pressured into it, by people or circumstances.
(But really, that should be a premise for every job, in an ideal world)

I've been pressured into every job I've ever held by circumstances. No job, no eats.

Let's play the more ambiguous field :

Is massage with a happy ending service legal or not?

... I loves me happy endings.

You should make sure that LG and the other clowns know this. You know, since they're paid to make fools out of themselves in front of audiences(in between plotting to take over the world).

I still have my dignity. *nod*

*pants fall down*

People that voluntarily wish to sell sex for money... why is that a crime in the first place ?

Forcing them to do things they do not want, human slavery, abuse and so on are all already covered by other laws after all.

I still have my dignity. *nod*

*pants fall down*

:eek: Please, not here. Think of the children lurking around this forum

:eek: Please, not here. Think of the children lurking around this forum

no worries... he's wearing shorts. see? it's there right on top of his head! :D

:eek: Please, not here. Think of the children lurking around this forum

I am. :)

no worries... he's wearing shorts. see? it's there right on top of his head! :D

The party doesn't officially start until someone is wearing their underwear on their head. :)

Well pardon my unwitting sexism. In retrospect, Men and thier dignity are no longer products to be bought and sold either. Happy?

What if they choose to 'sell their dignity'? And what is dignity, something you've decided everyone should have to keep? People do stupid things all the time, have they also lost their dignity?

Anything between 2 *consenting* adults should be legal. Which means, yes prostitution should be legalized.

Prostitution should be like any other job with an equivilant health risk. That is, monitored and regulated to ensure the safety of all involved.

Yeah. Birth control pills and regular STD checkups, for one.

Yes, but strictly regulated. It shouldn't be legal so people can have a quick fuck for some money (how much does a prostitute cost btw? I've always wondered), but to better protect the workers. It's going to happen anyway if it's not legal so why not make the best of it?
Depends on the quality of said prostitute ;)

Monkeys kinda do it: http://news.wired.com/dynamic/stories/S/SINGAPORE_MONKEY_SEX?SITE=WIRE&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2008-01-05-07-58-22

No. Women and thier dignity are no longer objects to be bought and sold, used and abused.


Well said, but that will fall on deaf ears here.

Yes it should be legal

And by the way take a peak at my sig:)

Well said, but that will fall on deaf ears here.

We heard it, we just don't equate sex with dignity, or providing a service in exchange for a fee with being something to be bought and sold. Feel free to try and convince us that this is the case though.

No. Women and thier dignity are no longer objects to be bought and sold, used and abused.

However, I would be in full support of moves to keep prying government eyes out of the bedroom.

Why should they not be allowed the freedom to choose to sell whatever part of their time or activities they wish? Seems to be more treating them like objects to set them aside and tell them what they can or can not do with their own body's

We heard it, we just don't equate sex with dignity, or providing a service in exchange for a fee with being something to be bought and sold. Feel free to try and convince us that this is the case though.

Trust me, I have been thru enough here to know that I could write a novel on why I don't like it with evidence and people here still wouldn't change their minds.


But if you don't mind your daughter being treated like a piece of meat that is only good for a 20 min fucking go right ahead, I would rather mine see herself as being worth more than that and become a doctor, teacher, scientist, actor, poet, writer, politician, nurse or something silly like that and not a las vegas hooker. But thats just me.

Trust me, I have been thru enough here to know that I could write a novel on why I don't like it with evidence and people here still wouldn't change their minds.


But if you don't mind your daughter being treated like a piece of meat that is only good for a 20 min fucking go right ahead, I would rather mine see herself as being worth more than that and become a doctor, teacher, scientist, actor, poet, writer, politician, nurse or something silly like that and not a las vegas hooker. But thats just me.

I agree with you on that, but ironically, nevada is the ONLY US state that has not outlawed prostitution, though it is illegal in Vegas.

Legal-illegal, tom(ay)to-tom(ah)to, the point is whether something is legal or illegal it is still the same thing, it will still happen, and not even "the law" can PHYSICALLY stop anything. It can threaten you, and punish you, but it can never stop you. sometimes it can stop you doing things again but it can never stop you doing anything the first time, ever.

If you ask me, the ONLY crimes are ones that harm other people, animals, or the environment in any way, emotionally, physically, or financially. oh and the hackers who send you viruses, why does nobody prosecute their ass? huh?:mp5:

so, Prostitution, I think should be legal, because it doesn't hurt anyone (unless they want to be hurt...;)) and it's nobody else's problem if a prositute is willing to degrade themself like that.

The only thing I feel strongly about is that it is SO SO SO uneven. It's like when you think of a nurse, you don't think male nurse. when you think of prostitute you think woman. The real problem with prostitution is that there are HARDLY ANY STRAIGHT male prostitutes!! I mean it is so sexist!! it really annoys me! Hey, all the guys out there; How can you think that women are there just to fulfill your needs, without realising that women have needs aswell?:headbang:

so to summarise, Prostitution should be legal where it isn't already. The law can't stop you, Spammers should die!, More male prostitutes who aren't gay are needed, and most men know nothing.......:confused:

Yes, but only if it will be strictly regulated.

But if you don't mind your daughter being treated like a piece of meat that is only good for a 20 min fucking go right ahead, I would rather mine see herself as being worth more than that and become a doctor, teacher, scientist, actor, poet, writer, politician, nurse or something silly like that and not a las vegas hooker. But thats just me.
Yeah, and not everyone gets to have a good job. I'm not sure that being a prostitute is much worse than working at McDonald's for one's whole life. At least in the former occupation there's a shot at retirement due to a higher income.

Trust me, I have been thru enough here to know that I could write a novel on why I don't like it with evidence and people here still wouldn't change their minds. Yup.
But if you don't mind your daughter being treated like a piece of meat that is only good for a 20 min fucking go right ahead, I would rather mine see herself as being worth more than that and become a doctor, teacher, scientist, actor, poet, writer, politician, nurse or something silly like that and not a las vegas hooker. But thats just me.Emotionalization of the issue. How much do you want to bet that upbringing and environment have a bigger effect on whether someone becomes a prostitute than whether prostitution is legal or not?

Trust me, I have been thru enough here to know that I could write a novel on why I don't like it with evidence and people here still wouldn't change their minds.


But if you don't mind your daughter being treated like a piece of meat that is only good for a 20 min fucking go right ahead, I would rather mine see herself as being worth more than that and become a doctor, teacher, scientist, actor, poet, writer, politician, nurse or something silly like that and not a las vegas hooker. But thats just me.
We all hope better for our kids ... and I would spend a lot of time motivating mine to be the best person possible

That does not mean I would support making bad jobs illegal

We all hope better for our kids ... and I would spend a lot of time motivating mine to be the best person possible

That does not mean I would support making bad jobs illegal



You atleast admitt its a bad job then? If you can agree its a bad job and women should be encouraged and helped to do better I am fine with that.

How is wanting them to be something better treating them like an object? Lets say I wanted to sell my time to drug dealer by helping them send hardcore drugs to children. Not that they are the same, but the point is just because its your time doesn't always mean you can do as you wish with it.

Wanting them to be better no ... making anything but what we feel is better illegal yes.

You are treating them like they can not make up their own mind to be better for them selfs.

Why should they not be allowed the freedom to choose to sell whatever part of their time or activities they wish? Seems to be more treating them like objects to set them aside and tell them what they can or can not do with their own body's



How is wanting them to be something better treating them like an object? Lets say I wanted to sell my time to drug dealer by helping them send hardcore drugs to children. Not that they are the same, but the point is just because its your time doesn't always mean you can do as you wish with it.

How is wanting them to be something better treating them like an object?
Because you're acting as though they are incapable of making their own decisions, their own mistakes in their lives.

We all hope better for our kids ... and I would spend a lot of time motivating mine to be the best person possible

That does not mean I would support making bad jobs illegal

there are countless bad jobs, garbage collecters, sceptic tank cleaners, etc.

so, hmm...yeah, it's the same thing? bad job blow job, tom(ay)to tom(ah)to, huh?

Because you're acting as though they are incapable of making their own decisions, their own mistakes in their lives.

Exactly ... there are plenty of things I don't want my children doing ... I don't support making them all illegal either

Yup.


Now you know why I really couldn't care less what any of you think. What you admitted to is not a good thing. I have changed my mind a million times, many on subjects I had vowed never to, so why can't you do the same?


Emotionalization of the issue. How much do you want to bet that upbringing and environment have a bigger effect on whether someone becomes a prostitute than whether prostitution is legal or not?



I meant to do that, it still stands as true. Just because it would have a bigger effect doesn't mean making prostitution legal wouldn't encourage young girls to do it, I mean a man paying you 500 bucks just to suck his dick? Most 16 year olds girls would see that as a sweet deal.

I meant to do that, it still stands as true. Just because it would have a bigger effect doesn't mean making prostitution legal wouldn't encourage young girls to do it, I mean a man paying you 500 bucks just to suck his dick? Most 16 year olds girls would see that as a sweet deal.
I think you have a very low opinion of most 16 year old girls.

In fact, your attitude sort of tells me that you have a low opinion of women in general.

Dude, those are all needed services, you don't NEED a hooker.
Some men do if they ever want to get laid.

there are countless bad jobs, garbage collecters, sceptic tank cleaners, etc.

so, hmm...yeah, it's the same thing? bad job blow job, tom(ay)to tom(ah)to, huh?



Dude, those are all needed services, you don't NEED a hooker.

Now you know why I really couldn't care less what any of you think. What you admitted to is not a good thing. I have changed my mind a million times, many on subjects I had vowed never to, so why can't you do the same?Just because I share your doubts as to whether you will be able to field arguments that will change my mind on the matter of legalizing prostitution doesn't mean I'm incapable of changing my mind.
I meant to do that, it still stands as true. Just because it would have a bigger effect doesn't mean making prostitution legal wouldn't encourage young girls to do it, I mean a man paying you 500 bucks just to suck his dick? Most 16 year olds girls would see that as a sweet deal.And I have sever doubts that making it illegal would change that last bit.

Because you're acting as though they are incapable of making their own decisions, their own mistakes in their lives.


Because most are not, no teenager is cable of making their own informed decisions. I would rather help prevent them from making mistakes than saying fuck it and let them when I knew very well what they are doing is one. My sister was addicted to crack, should I just have allowed that? No.

Because most are not, no teenager is cable of making their own informed decisions. I would rather help prevent them from making mistakes than saying fuck it and let them when I knew very well what they are doing is one. My sister was addicted to crack, should I just have allowed that? No.
What does adults consenting to allow other adults to pay them for sexual services have to do with teenagers selling sexual services, exactly?
And who are you to say that such parenting should be legislated for all teenagers? Just because you think that you're (going to be?) an incompetent parent whose children are going to feel the need to sell their bodies out for sex doesn't mean that everyone else is and it doesn't mean that fully grown adults shouldn't be allowed to do what they want with their bodies, including letting other people rent them for an hour.

Dude, those are all needed services, you don't NEED a hooker.

Dont need fast food either we let people purchase that if they so choose

there are countless bad jobs, garbage collecters, sceptic tank cleaners, etc.

Exactly ... there are plenty of things I don't want my children doing ... I don't support making them all illegal eitherFull agreement here.

I think you have a very low opinion of most 16 year old girls.

In fact, your attitude sort of tells me that you have a low opinion of women in general.



:rolleyes:


I knew from the start somebody rather than engage me in polite debate would resort to this. Of course nothing here suggest any of this, but then again this is NS.

Trust me, I have been thru enough here to know that I could write a novel on why I don't like it with evidence and people here still wouldn't change their minds.
Nobody on NSG will ever change anyone else's mind on anything, doesn't stop us throwing posts at each other :).


But if you don't mind your daughter being treated like a piece of meat that is only good for a 20 min fucking go right ahead, I would rather mine see herself as being worth more than that and become a doctor, teacher, scientist, actor, poet, writer, politician, nurse or something silly like that and not a las vegas hooker. But thats just me.
If my (hypothetical)daughter is happy and healthy and is likely to remain that way for the foreseeable future then I am perfectly content. If this happiness comes from getting paid to suck cock, then so be it. If it comes from being the best brain surgeon/rocket scientist/published author/messiah in the history of existence, well that's fine too. I don't presume to be some kind of judge over the quality of her life, I just want her to be safe and happy, because I love her.

Further, I'd like to know why fucking for a living is somehow less preferable to be being a doctor, teacher, scientist, actor, poet, writer, politician or nurse.
How is wanting them to be something better treating them like an object?
It's the presuming to have some authority to decide which job is better for them that's treating them like an object.

Wanting them to be better no ... making anything but what we feel is better illegal yes.

You are treating them like they can not make up their own mind to be better for them selfs.

we are missing the point here. while this is an issue, it is caused by prejudice. thus, The Real problem is a distinct unfair extreme lack of STRAIGHT male prostitutes!

bottom Line : if men expect to treat women like objects they first need to realise that it is only fair that women can treat men like objects, either that or objectifying is wrong, unless both parties agree (without being forced) that one should be dominant, and only because the other wants to be submissive.

:rolleyes:


I knew from the start somebody rather than engage me in polite debate would resort to this. Of course nothing here suggest any of this, but then again this is NS.
What? You do have a low opinion of 16 year old girls. I was one once, as were many of my friends, and not one of my friends would have thought that accepting $500 for a blow job would be a good idea. I can think of very few of my classmates who probably would have been fine with such a proposition and their childhoods weren't exactly nice.

You also seem to have a low opinion of women because you seem to be implying that women are no smarter than children and need to be legally prevented from whoring themselves out otherwise that's all they'll aspire to. I don't think anyone aspires to be a prostitute. At the same time I don't think anyone aspires to be a McDonald's worker.

Some men do if they ever want to get laid.



Thats a lie, try hard enough and you can find a women who would. And if a man feels he needs a hooker he obviously needs help in a very bad way, and in help I mean a doctor.

:rolleyes:


I knew from the start somebody rather than engage me in polite debate would resort to this. Of course nothing here suggest any of this, but then again this is NS.Funny. Your first post in this thread accused most of us of being deaf. Some way to start a polite debate.

If my (hypothetical)daughter is happy and healthy and is likely to remain that way for the foreseeable future then I am perfectly content. If this happiness comes from getting paid to suck cock, then so be it. If it comes from being the best brain surgeon/rocket scientist/published author/messiah in the history of existence, well that's fine too. I don't presume to be some kind of judge over the quality of her life, I just want her to be safe and happy, because I love her.


If you really did love her you would want something better for her. You will understand that later.

Further, I'd like to know why fucking for a living is somehow less preferable to be being a doctor, teacher, scientist, actor, poet, writer, politician or nurse.

You're kidding right? Are you really saying that sucking dick for $20 is on the same level as treating cancer?

It's the presuming to have some authority to decide which job is better for them that's treating them like an object.

Wrong, it's wanting what is best for them and trying to prevent them from making a mistake, there is nothing wrong with trying to encourage women to do better.

Thats a lie, try hard enough and you can find a women who would. And if a man feels he needs a hooker he obviously needs help in a very bad way, and in help I mean a doctor.
I don't know if you've seen some of the men I've seen... some of them probably couldn't get laid (without paying) to save their lives.

we are missing the point here. while this is an issue, it is caused by prejudice. thus, The Real problem is a distinct unfair extreme lack of STRAIGHT male prostitutes!

bottom Line : if men expect to treat women like objects they first need to realise that it is only fair that women can treat men like objects, either that or objectifying is wrong, unless both parties agree (without being forced) that one should be dominant, and only because the other wants to be submissive.

I am fine with strait male prostitutes as well ... if there is a market for it they can go for it

If you really did love her you would want something better for her. You will understand that later.
Ah, patronizing other posters! Lovely!

You're kidding right? Are you really saying that sucking dick for $20 is on the same level as treating cancer?
I thought you were saying that they were getting paid more than that for sucking dick? And in either case, it pays better than minimum wage and makes someone happy.

Wrong, it's wanting what is best for them and trying to prevent them from making a mistake, there is nothing wrong with trying to encourage women to do better.
There's something wrong with legislation that prevents adults from making their own career decisions just because you consider their choice of profession to be morally questionable.

Because most are not, no teenager is cable of making their own informed decisions. I would rather help prevent them from making mistakes than saying fuck it and let them when I knew very well what they are doing is one.
What makes you think that 16 year olds of either gender would be allowed engage in this new, legal, regulated prostitution?
My sister was addicted to crack, should I just have allowed that? No.

Unless you're her legal guardian you're not in a position to allow or forbid your sister to do anything any more than you're in a position to allow or forbid me to do anything.

What? You do have a low opinion of 16 year old girls. I was one once, as were many of my friends, and not one of my friends would have thought that accepting $500 for a blow job would be a good idea. I can think of very few of my classmates who probably would have been fine with such a proposition and their childhoods weren't exactly nice.

You also seem to have a low opinion of women because you seem to be implying that women are no smarter than children and need to be legally prevented from whoring themselves out otherwise that's all they'll aspire to. I don't think anyone aspires to be a prostitute. At the same time I don't think anyone aspires to be a McDonald's worker.


I have a feeling you still are, not a flame but a statement of fact. I mean have you ever met a 16 year old? I suggest not.


That second paragraph shows you are making a wide judgement on me based off of one stance. Don't judge people based on one stance.

Unless you're her legal guardian you're not in a position to allow or forbid your sister to do anything any more than you're in a position to allow or forbid me to do anything.

Doesn't mean you can't discourage her. Although since I smoke crack a lot myself, I wouldn't be a good example.

Now you know why I really couldn't care less what any of you think. What you admitted to is not a good thing. I have changed my mind a million times, many on subjects I had vowed never to, so why can't you do the same?






I meant to do that, it still stands as true. Just because it would have a bigger effect doesn't mean making prostitution legal wouldn't encourage young girls to do it, I mean a man paying you 500 bucks just to suck his dick? Most 16 year olds girls would see that as a sweet deal.

I think the problem is men need to realise that most 16 year old girls would not do that, and women have needs too. some women would pay 500 dollars to suck dick, providing that dick belonged to a fairly young, atrractive guy. not some old pervert's withered genitals which he too busy playing with thinking 16 year olds would give him a second glance.

Unless you're her legal guardian you're not in a position to allow or forbid your sister to do anything any more than you're in a position to allow or forbid me to do anything.



SO I am supposed to allow my sister to kill herself? You just lost this debate by saying that. I would never allow her to kill herself and would do all in my power to stop her, if you like it or not.

Ah, patronizing other posters! Lovely!


Nope, statement of fact. I think I hit a nerve with that comment.:D

SO I am supposed to allow my sister to kill herself? You just lost this debate by saying that. I would never allow her to kill herself and would do all in my power to stop her, if you like it or not.
No he has not he was perfectly right in his comparison of the legality of FORCE ... coercion is a different matter all together.

I have a feeling you still are, not a flame but a statement of fact. I mean have you ever met a 16 year old? I suggest not.
Like I said, I spent a year of my life not too long ago as a 16 year old girl. I also have three younger sisters and they each spent a year of their lives as 16 year old girls slightly more recently than me (hell, one of them just turned 17 a couple months ago). I have known at least some of all of their friends as they went through this time of their life...

And yeah, so you flame me by claiming that I'm probably still 16 (I'm 24, thanks) and then you claim that I've never met a 16 year old. Good job, you make a lot of sense there.

That second paragraph shows you are making a wide judgement on me based off of one stance. Don't judge people based on one stance.
The stance and the fact that you seem to think that you should have the right to tell women what they should and should not be able to do with their lives is what I'm basing my opinion of you on. Well, that and the fact that you seem to thin that if prostitution was made legal, all women would want in on that.

Nope, statement of fact. I think I hit a nerve with that comment.:DAnd wouldn't pursuing it further and gloating about it be considered flaming at worst or flame-baiting at best?

No.

Nope, statement of fact. I think I hit a nerve with that comment.:D
No, I think that saying "someday you'll understand" is patronizing. And how could you have hit a nerve? That comment wasn't even directed at me, I'm just saying it's rude to patronize other posters.

The stance and the fact that you seem to think that you should have the right to tell women what they should and should not be able to do with their lives is what I'm basing my opinion of you on. Well, that and the fact that you seem to thin that if prostitution was made legal, all women would want in on that.

I have the right to tell anyone anything, unless it is overtly offensive to a legal extent. Of course he has a right to tell his daughter not to be a prostitute. Just like I have a right to tell my son (if I had one) not to be a gigolo. There is nothing sexist about it.

If you really did love her you would want something better for her. You will understand that later.



You're kidding right? Are you really saying that sucking dick for $20 is on the same level as treating cancer?

that 2nd paragraph, WHAT? $20!?! I would do no job for $20, let alone a blow job for $20!:eek:

I have the right to tell anyone anything, unless it is overtly offensive to a legal extent. Of course he has a right to tell his daughter not to be a prostitute. Just like I have a right to tell my son (if I had one) not to be a gigolo. There is nothing sexist about it.
Well, yes. I should have corrected it to the fact that he thinks he should have the right to legislate what grown women can and cannot do...

If you really did love her you would want something better for her. You will understand that later.
What is better for her is not up to me. I am not her. Its her life, and I can only offer guidance, not take control of it. If your daughter was perfectly happy, healthy and safe being a prostitute, then who are you to say she can't do it any more? You're her father, not her owner.



You're kidding right? Are you really saying that sucking dick for $20 is on the same level as treating cancer?
Might not get the same pay, unless you can suck a lot of dick, but happiness is happiness, regardless of the job. But can you show how being a doctor is somehow better than being a prostitute? I mean, we all know that a doctor would be better paid, but assume for the sake of argument that either profession can pay the bills easily.



Wrong, it's wanting what is best for them and trying to prevent them from making a mistake, there is nothing wrong with trying to encourage women to do better.
The way you wrote this it seems like you're saying that all that is how you're treating them like an object, which I'm sure wasn't your intention.

But to address this point, women can decide for themselves what is better for them. What you think about the matter isn't necessarily relevant, unless they value your opinion.

I find it telling that you seem to think that men aren't involved in prostitution, also.
I don't know if you've seen some of the men I've seen... some of them probably couldn't get laid (without paying) to save their lives.

*raises hand*

I find it telling that you seem to think that men aren't involved in prostitution, also.
Deaf ears...
Surely when men engage in selling themselves and their dignity it's called prostitution as well?

that 2nd paragraph, WHAT? $20!?! I would do no job for $20, let alone a blow job for $20!:eek:
You can get a blow job here for as little as $5.






CALL NOW AND RECEIVE NOT ONE, BUT TWO BLOW JOBS FOR AS LITTLE AS $4.95!!! A $20 VALUE YOURS ABSOLUTELY FREE!! BUT WAIT, THERE'S MORE!! CALL WITHIN THE NEXT 30 MINUTES AND WE'LL ALSO SEND YOU A BOX OF CHEWING GUM, GREAT FOR ALL YOUR BLOWING JOBS!! BLOW GUM BUBBLES FOR YOUR CHILDREN, OR GUM BALLOONS FOR YOUR PARTIES!! A $1.49 VALUE, YOURS FOR FREE!!

Definitely. It is a woman's (or man's) right to use their body in any way which she may choose.

*raises hand*
Haha, I'm sure that's not true.

Anyways, with men who are unable to get laid, it's more a personality thing than anything. Of course some creeps are able to hide their shitty personality behind a veil of charm for a while.

Well, yes. I should have corrected it to the fact that he thinks he should have the right to legislate what grown women can and cannot do...

Ok, but I don't think it has anything to do with sexism, as I am absolutely sure the situation wouldn't change if this were applied to his son.

Doesn't mean you can't discourage her. Although since I smoke crack a lot myself, I wouldn't be a good example.
Of course not. You can try and persuade someone to make one choice or another, but ultimately it's their choice.
SO I am supposed to allow my sister to kill herself? You just lost this debate by saying that. I would never allow her to kill herself and would do all in my power to stop her, if you like it or not.

And you wonder why you're accused of treating women like objects. Your sister is an independent human being. You have only as much sway over her life as she allows you. Killing herself is obviously an exception, but you can no more force her to stop smoking crack than you can force her to stop wearing Levi jeans.

And lets not get sidetracked, since smoking crack is nothing at all like engaging in legal, regulated prostitution.

Deaf ears...
I'm pretty sure you're not Cryptic Nightmare
Haha, I'm sure that's not true.
Maybe not, but self-deprecating humour is still humour :p

Anyways, with men who are unable to get laid, it's more a personality thing than anything. Of course some creeps are able to hide their shitty personality behind a veil of charm for a while.

Indeed. Regardless of how you might look, there's pretty much always someone who thinks it's hot. And finding them is easier than ever, thanks to the internet.

[QUOTE=Cryptic Nightmare;13347700]
You're kidding right? Are you really saying that sucking dick for $20 is on the same level as treating cancer?QUOTE]

After watching I Am Legend, I never want anyone to cure cancer. Ever.

Might not get the same pay, unless you can suck a lot of dick, but happiness is happiness, regardless of the job. But can you show how being a doctor is somehow better than being a prostitute? I mean, we all know that a doctor would be better paid, but assume for the sake of argument that either profession can pay the bills easily.

I presume that you have a penis to even think that a doctor needs to prove themself to a prostitute.

oh, so yeah, I see it now. "so little kid, what do you want to be when you grow up? policeman? fireman? Doctor?" "No, I want to be a prostitute, and do guys that can't get a girlfriend."

How is being a doctor better than being a prostitute? WTF!! doctors cure disease, prostitutes spread disease!! what women in her right mind WANTS to suck the dick of a perverted, probably ugly, unattractive guy who can't get a girlfriend when she can pay the bills "just as easlilly" by being a doctor and sucking the dick of the handsome, hot, male doctor colleague?

hot normal sexy colleague or old horny pervert? not exactly a tom(ay)to tom(ah)to situation, more like ripe cucumber and mouldy sausage!

Ok, but I don't think it has anything to do with sexism, as I am absolutely sure the situation wouldn't change if this were applied to his son.
Maybe, but he always talks like it's only a girl who would have this issue.

I'm pretty sure you're not Cryptic NightmareIt's funny, because that quote by me is a response to the exact same post that CN's first post in this thread was. The irony of someone calling him out for something I mentioned at the very beginning is adorable.

I have the right to tell anyone anything, unless it is overtly offensive to a legal extent. Of course he has a right to tell his daughter not to be a prostitute. Just like I have a right to tell my son (if I had one) not to be a gigolo. There is nothing sexist about it.

Of course, what you tell him and what he does may be two entirely different things.

And you wonder why you're accused of treating women like objects. Your sister is an independent human being. You have only as much sway over her life as she allows you. Killing herself is obviously an exception, but you can no more force her to stop smoking crack than you can force her to stop wearing Levi jeans.

And lets not get sidetracked, since smoking crack is nothing at all like engaging in legal, regulated prostitution.

And you wonder why I couldn't care less what you think. Clearly if she is doing something that could kill her and I try to stop her I am treating her like an object. :rolleyes:

Ok, but I don't think it has anything to do with sexism, as I am absolutely sure the situation wouldn't change if this were applied to his son.


You nailed it man! Same no matter the sex of the person involved.

You seem to have a disconnect from reality. You can't control your sister, any more than you can control any other person. Just like I can't control my kids, I can bargain, beat, lock them up, but in the end they will do what they want, because they are humans with brains. You can "try to stop" her all you want, but trying isn't doing and no matter how hard you "try" she'll do what she wants to.

Oh I get it, if I try to stop her from killing herself I am disconnected from reality? So I should just let her kill herself without so much as a effort?

And you wonder why I couldn't care less what you think. Clearly if she is doing something that could kill her and I try to stop her I am treating her like an object. :rolleyes:

You seem to have a disconnect from reality. You can't control your sister, any more than you can control any other person. Just like I can't control my kids, I can bargain, beat, lock them up, but in the end they will do what they want, because they are humans with brains. You can "try to stop" her all you want, but trying isn't doing and no matter how hard you "try" she'll do what she wants to.

No, I think that saying "someday you'll understand" is patronizing. And how could you have hit a nerve? That comment wasn't even directed at me, I'm just saying it's rude to patronize other posters.


It seemed to have pissed you off, so I hit a nerve. Why get so mad over a comment not even directed to you? I wasn't patronizing him, not that it has anything to do with you, he is a big boy and can stand on his own two feet, he doesn't need you.

And you wonder why I couldn't care less what you think. Clearly if she is doing something that could kill her and I try to stop her I am treating her like an object. :rolleyes:

Yeah, cos that isn't twisting my point at all. Not even a little. Cos that part where I wrote 'Killing herself is obviously an exception', that just isn't there at all. Cos my point wasn't that if you think you can control your sister's life then you are treating her like an object. Oh no.

My point was that when you try to be a heroic superman and mighty defender of the poor, weak women(who would only wreck their lives if you they were allowed to live them themselves), you're really treating them like objects.

Ah, isn't it fun when someone totally misrepresents your words? Are we all through with that? Good. Now lets stop talking about your sister and get back to why you think that legalised and regulated prostitution would be a bad thing. The ball is in your court, I believe.

Legalisation is the popular 'right-on' opinion on prostitution but the tide is turning.

The UK will probably change the law this year to criminalise customers, not the prostitutes, but the customers and other countries are closely looking at it.

Legalising, as in the Netherlands, Germany and Australia has been shown to increase illegal prostitution as well so to live in a dream world where legalisation would solve problems is utterly misguided. It increases illegal trafficking as well as condones the idea that men - regardless of the fact that men are prostitutes, a minority and often underage as well - can treat a women's body as a commodity, an empty jar.

In a perfect world, legalisation is the right answer but we don't live in a perfect world.

Oh I get it, if I try to stop her from killing herself I am disconnected from reality? So I should just let her kill herself without so much as a effort?

there, again, disconnect with reality.

do you read well?

It seemed to have pissed you off, so I hit a nerve. Why get so mad over a comment not even directed to you? I wasn't patronizing him, not that it has anything to do with you, he is a big boy and can stand on his own two feet, he doesn't need you.
I didn't get mad. I just said that it was lovely that you were patronizing other posters.

Yeah, cos that isn't twisting my point at all. Not even a little. Cos that part where I wrote 'Killing herself is obviously an exception', that just isn't there at all. Cos my point wasn't that if you think you can control your sister's life then you are treating her like an object. Oh no.


Its your fault for bad wording there, you are twisting my words to make it sound like something I didn't.

My point was that when you try to be a heroic superman and mighty defender of the poor, weak women(who would only wreck their lives if you they were allowed to live them themselves), you're really treating them like objects.

You seem to misunderstand what I mean, of course I think you know what I mean you just love to twist my words and intentions. But i guess its fine to leave people alone no matter how bad their lives are, offering a helping hand is not a crime and keeping prostitution illegal doesnt equal controling them.


Ah, isn't it fun when someone totally misrepresents your words? Are we all through with that? Good. Now lets stop talking about your sister and get back to why you think that legalised and regulated prostitution would be a bad thing. The ball is in your court, I believe.



Which is what you are doing to me and mentioning my sister is valid to this discussion as you and others talked about not controlling women, I used my sister as a point of reference, that is a valid tactic.

Legalising, as in the Netherlands, Germany and Australia has been shown to increase illegal prostitution as well so to live in a dream world where legalisation would solve problems is utterly misguided. It increases illegal trafficking as well as condones the idea that men - regardless of the fact that men are prostitutes, a minority and often underage as well - can treat a women's body as a commodity, an empty jar.Sources to back up some of the these claims?

there, again, disconnect with reality.

do you read well?



Do you? You were off from the start here so you really shouldn't cry I am diconnected with reality when you were off in another solar system with the intent of my posts.

Legalisation is the popular 'right-on' opinion on prostitution but the tide is turning.

The UK will probably change the law this year to criminalise customers, not the prostitutes, but the customers and other countries are closely looking at it.

Legalising, as in the Netherlands, Germany and Australia has been shown to increase illegal prostitution as well so to live in a dream world where legalisation would solve problems is utterly misguided. It increases illegal trafficking as well as condones the idea that men - regardless of the fact that men are prostitutes, a minority and often underage as well - can treat a women's body as a commodity, an empty jar.

In a perfect world, legalisation is the right answer but we don't live in a perfect world.


Well said.

Your whole 'if you disagree with me you think my sister should die' shit is getting pretty old, so how about you drop it and try making some arguments instead of parading your crack addict sister around like she's some kind of debate winning charm.



How about you pull your head outta your ass and try to understand the point I am trying. Ummm K? As I stated before me using her is valid.

Sources to back up some of the these claims?

If you want to learn more about a subject you're talking about, I suggest you look them up yourself, I'm not really here to debate as I've been through this before.

Those closest to the subject understand that legalisation is not a one-size-fits-all answer to the problem and the problem is not about a women's right to choose - she should have that choice - but about the actual reality of what happens.

Legalisation sounds right and, as said, in a perfect world it is right, but it simply doesn't work in practice right now.

It's gross simplification of a complicated issue.

Oh I get it, if I try to stop her from killing herself I am disconnected from reality? So I should just let her kill herself without so much as a effort?
Your whole 'if you disagree with me you think my sister should die' shit is getting pretty old, so how about you drop it and try making some arguments instead of parading your crack addict sister around like she's some kind of debate winning charm.

If you want to learn more about a subject you're talking about, I suggest you look them up yourself, I'm not really here to debate as I've been through this before.
Yeah, I seem to recall a thread where you put forth this argument and it was shot down due to lack of credible evidence... but that could just be my memory.

If you want to learn more about a subject you're talking about, I suggest you look them up yourself, I'm not really here to debate as I've been through this before.However, debate is what this forum is about. Coming into a debate and making unsupported claims (whether true or not) is a waste of everyone's time.

The party doesn't officially start until someone is wearing their underwear on their head. :)

Does wearing someone else's underwear on their heads count?

Its your fault for bad wording there, you are twisting my words to make it sound like something I didn't.
If you choose to ignore a sentence in my post then the fault is yours.



You seem to misunderstand what I mean, of course I think you know what I mean you just love to twist my words and intentions. But i guess its fine to leave people alone no matter how bad their lives are, offering a helping hand is not a crime and keeping prostitution illegal doesnt equal controling them.

No dear, I was intentionally misrepresenting you to make a point.




Which is what you are doing to me and mentioning my sister is valid to this discussion as you and others talked about not controlling women, I used my sister as a point of reference, that is a valid tactic.
Yes, I did misrepresent you, to show that it's not going to achieve anything. I thought it was obvious, but I guess I overestimated you.
Do you? You were off from the start here so you really shouldn't cry I am diconnected with reality when you were off in another solar system with the intent of my posts.
Your posts are still there for anyone to read, you know.

If you choose to ignore a sentence in my post then the fault is yours.

Read the whole thing.





No dear, I was intentionally misrepresenting you to make a point.





Yes, I did misrepresent you, to show that it's not going to achieve anything. I thought it was obvious, but I guess I overestimated you.


Not a valid tactic. Nice try spinning this around but you fail. And I did say you knew what I meant but twisted it anyway.

Your posts are still there for anyone to read, you know.


Doesn't mean he got it.

How about you pull your head outta your ass and try to understand the point I am trying. Ummm K? As I stated before me using her is valid.

Your point, as I see it, is that it's ok to interfere in someone else's life when it's for their own good. And I can agree with that, to some extent. So, how is criminalising prostitution for the good of those who would engage in it?

Not a valid tactic. Nice try spinning this around but you fail. And I did say you knew what I meant but twisted it anyway.
Dude, he* stated in the very same post that he was aware that he was misinterpreting your statements. It was intentional and it wasn't a tactic except to demonstrate to you that this wasn't a good tactic for a debate.



*or she (assume for all)

Doesn't mean he got it.

She. And she is just as capable of getting it as someone who was reading from the start.

However, debate is what this forum is about. Coming into a debate and making unsupported claims (whether true or not) is a waste of everyone's time.

Yeah, I seem to recall a thread where you put forth this argument and it was shot down due to lack of credible evidence... but that could just be my memory.

On issues like this, much like environmental issues, civil rights issues or the suffragettes, facts seem to fly past the face of popular opinion until their weight overwhelms - the tide is turning on this one but the only fact for now is that it's more complicated an issue than simple legalisation, which is the throwaway answer provided by most people.

No one's asking for criminalisation of prostitutes, absolutely not, yet the answer is not legalisation either, it's not cut and dried like that.

Your point, as I see it, is that it's ok to interfere in someone else's life when it's for their own good. And I can agree with that, to some extent. So, how is criminalising prostitution for the good of those who would engage in it?



Sweet jesus he got it! You can as long as you getting involved helps that person, if not stay out! So if you sister is a crack addict it would be ok for you to get involved because she would need your help and your help would save her life, if she is lets say for the sake of argument dressing like a goth you need to stay the fuck out. You only get involved when its for their own good no other reason.


Let me put it this way, doing that allows you to take the prostitutes into custody, not put them in jail but in rehabilitation centers to help them get off of drugs if they are on any, give them free medical care and clean them up, also education and job placement and other government aid so they don't need to sell themselves. Free housing and the job would just be a starting point to build experience and get a paycheck, health care and education should be free anyway. I don't support arresting the men as for every man you jail 5 more will be willing to do what he did. FYI, the education would include whatever non-prostitution field they wish to get involved, alot of women sell themselves not as a career choice but as a last ditch attempt to make ends meet, no woman should have to do that.

I hope you understand what I meant, If not just ask what parts you didn't get and I will try and explain.

Wolf Rulez, here's why your posts repeated. Don't keep reposting if they don't appear at once.

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=511849

Folks collectively, cool it a bit, play nice, etc. Argue the post, not the poster.

She. And she is just as capable of getting it as someone who was reading from the start.

She? Didn't know that, will make a note of it. And I stand by the fact she didn't get what I meant, took you a while to get it.

On issues like this, much like environmental issues, civil rights issues or the suffragettes, facts seem to fly past the face of popular opinion until their weight overwhelms - the tide is turning on this one but the only fact for now is that it's more complicated an issue than simple legalisation, which is the throwaway answer provided by most people.

No one's asking for criminalisation of prostitutes, absolutely not, yet the answer is not legalisation either, it's not cut and dried like that.Debate or don't. Flinging insults at those that have different opinions is a waste of everyone's time.

On issues like this, much like environmental issues, civil rights issues or the suffragettes, facts seem to fly past the face of popular opinion until their weight overwhelms - the tide is turning on this one but the only fact for now is that it's more complicated an issue than simple legalisation, which is the throwaway answer provided by most people.

No one's asking for criminalisation of prostitutes, absolutely not, yet the answer is not legalisation either, it's not cut and dried like that.
This doesn't change the fact that you can't enter a debate and state "it's a fact that pigs fly (for example)" without demonstrating any sort of evidence that pigs fly. It also doesn't change the fact that I seem to recall a thread several months ago where you participated with this same argument and got pwned because your evidence wasn't any good (or didn't exist, I can't remember).

Wolf Rulez, here's why your posts repeated. Don't keep reposting if they don't appear at once.

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=511849

Folks collectively, cool it a bit, play nice, etc. Argue the post, not the poster.



I am trying here, some don't make it easy but I am making an effort.

Let me put it this way, doing that allows you to take the prostitutes into custody, not put them in jail but in rehabilitation centers to help them get off of drugs if they are on any, give them free medical care and clean them up, also education and job placement and other government aid so they don't need to sell themselves. Free housing and the job would just be a starting point to build experience and get a paycheck, health care and education should be free anyway.If you get those kinds of benefits for becoming an ex-prostitute, I predict a boom in prostitution, legal or illegal.

This doesn't change the fact that you can't enter a debate and state "it's a fact that pigs fly (for example)" without demonstrating any sort of evidence that pigs fly. It also doesn't change the fact that I seem to recall a thread several months ago where you participated with this same argument and got pwned because your evidence wasn't any good (or didn't exist, I can't remember).

Indeed - the problem is that it's an area that is only beginning to have serious study done - numbers are hotly disputed as are effects and the cause of those effects.

Understand that I'm not arguing any position here except to say that simple legalisation is not the easy answer to a complicated issue.

Wolf Rulez, here's why your posts repeated. Don't keep reposting if they don't appear at once.

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=511849

Folks collectively, cool it a bit, play nice, etc. Argue the post, not the poster.

thanks for the info :) i was already wondering... don't get why all posts are deleted in stead of leaving one on though...

Understand that I'm not arguing any position here except to say that simple legalisation is not the easy answer to a complicated issue.

Why not? :confused:

Understand that I'm not arguing any position here except to say that simple legalisation is not the easy answer to a complicated issue.Then please don't use wording that implies that you are, such as "the tide is turning" or "has been shown".

If you get those kinds of benefits for becoming an ex-prostitute, I predict a boom in prostitution, legal or illegal.

I could get benefits for being poor, doesn't mean I want to be or strive to be. And health care and ecuation should be free anyway.

No. Women and their dignity are no longer objects to be bought and sold, used and abused.

However, I would be in full support of moves to keep prying government eyes out of the bedroom.
I agree and disagree at the same time. It's horrible, because it completely devolves a woman and she becomes nothing more than a tool. It destroys the hard work and time to make men see that women are not household servants. However, if she is desperate and can't get money in any other way, then she might have no choice. I think, just to make this fair and not undo the years of trying to get men and women on equal ground, men should (and probably do but I'm not entirely sure) have the ability to make the same choice in male prostitution. By the way, to avoid awkward mistakes, I'm a dude.

Why not? :confused:

The idea is predicated on the thought that prostitutes would be considered equal members of society, or, to give an example provided earlier, no more or less considered than a McDonald's employee.

Yet sex in itself comes with an entire truckload of attitudes and perceptions that make it a different proposition.

An example is the judge, a female judge, in Germany who passed the judgement of 'non-payment' on a group of guys who raped a prostitute. They weren't convicted of rape because that was the service she was selling so it was simply a case of non-payment.

Although on this forum we're, of course, such enlightened people, not everyone is and there's a stigma associated with prostitution that means it is treated entirely differently and until we have a society where there's true equality, legalisation can lead to as much, if not more abuse - it's not certain and, as said, not enough study is done on this area because of that very stigma.

The only thing we can say is that the issue is more complicated and needs more study as opposed to throwing a simple, possibly wrong, solution at it.

thanks for the info :) i was already wondering... don't get why all posts are deleted in stead of leaving one on though...

*Blush* er, sorry ... I thought I'd left one still alive.

I am trying here, some don't make it easy but I am making an effort.

It's appreciated.

I could get benefits for being poor, doesn't mean I want to be or strive to be. And health care and ecuation should be free anyway.Not just benefits, those benefits specifically. When you don't take free healthcare and education for granted, the benefits you listed make prostitution a dream job simply for the sake of quitting.

Also, you assert that prostitution is inherently bad, and something that people must be helped out of. Now, while I will agree its not a job I want any of my family members doing, it is still not better or worse than a lot of other crappy jobs out there.

The idea is predicated on the thought that prostitutes would be considered equal members of society, or, to give an example provided earlier, no more or less considered than a McDonald's employee.

Yet sex in itself comes with an entire truckload of attitudes and perceptions that make it a different proposition.Indeed.

An example is the judge, a female judge, in Germany who passed the judgement of 'non-payment' on a group of guys who raped a prostitute. They weren't convicted of rape because that was the service she was selling so it was simply a case of non-payment.Source please.

Although on this forum we're, of course, such enlightened people, not everyone is and there's a stigma associated with prostitution that means it is treated entirely differently and until we have a society where there's true equality, legalisation can lead to as much, if not more abuse - it's not certain and, as said, not enough study is done on this area because of that very stigma.If anything, keeping it illegal is the surest way to maintain said very stigma.

The only thing we can say is that the issue is more complicated and needs more study as opposed to throwing a simple, possibly wrong, solution at it.Such as keeping it illegal?

Not just benefits, those benefits specifically. When you don't take free healthcare and education for granted, the benefits you listed make prostitution a dream job simply for the sake of quitting.

Also, you assert that prostitution is inherently bad, and something that people must be helped out of. Now, while I will agree its not a job I want any of my family members doing, it is still not better or worse than a lot of other crappy jobs out there.


I just want to help them, you can't help all but I would like to see no woman have to do that. And some jobs may seem worse, but provide needed services like garbage pick up.

*Blush* er, sorry ... I thought I'd left one still alive.


no problem everyone makes mistakes... luckily i usually make my first couple of posts in a new forum at an extended source as well, so i can repost it if i still might :)

Indeed.

Source please.

If anything, keeping it illegal is the surest way to maintain said very stigma.

Such as keeping it illegal?

This one I really should source because, my mistake, it was Philadelphia not Germany and I apologise to Germans for that :(

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teresa_Carr_Deni

Anyway, off to lunch but I hope better discussion is undertaken than simple you're right/I'm wrong debates because it's a serious issue that deserves more attention, not aimed at this forum but the world in general.

This one I really should source because, my mistake, it was Philadelphia not Germany and I apologise to Germans for that :(

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teresa_Carr_Deni
I'll stand by the statement made by the Philadelphia Bar Association:
...unforgivable miscarriage of justice...
...clear disregard of the legal definition of rape and the rule of law...

This one I really should source because, my mistake, it was Philadelphia not Germany and I apologise to Germans for that :(

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teresa_Carr_Deni

Anyway, off to lunch but I hope better discussion is undertaken than simple you're right/I'm wrong debates because it's a serious issue that deserves more attention, not aimed at this forum but the world in general.
If anything, this demonstrates that in places where prostitution is illegal, prostitutes are treated as subhuman. I don't see how this is a case against making prostitution legal.

seems like i missed the first time this gets posted, mainly because it wasn't there before... I'll post it again here, and delete the older one, so technically it ain't double posting anymore is it?
___________________________________________________________________

Yes it should be legal in licensed brothels, so the workers have some protections. That is the situation here.

Wolf Rulez, the one I just deleted should be the last. There were scads of 'em -- well, no, maybe four, but it seemed a lot -- hung up in the moderation queue. You now seem to have two copies -- 125 and 141 -- including the one I thought I'd nuked before, so I'll edit the copy out of your latest post (141).

Whew.

The delay doesn't automatically disappear at 11 -- this is a Jolt-type glitch, and Jolt is mysterious. But it will soon.

sorry to have caused you so much troubles :-s

MODEDIT: 'Twasn't you, it was The System. -- Ardchoille

lol, thanks for being so kind to a new guy, that ain't that obvious at most forums i've been to :)

Well since i deleted that first post, which i finally found, because it went visible after there were already enough posts to fill an other page... I do feel it isn't that bad to not being read by someone ;) So i'll post it for the last time in this message... As of the fact that the previous one is gone this shouldn't be double posting anymore :)
______________________________________________________________________________

Because most are not, no teenager is cable of making their own informed decisions. I would rather help prevent them from making mistakes than saying fuck it and let them when I knew very well what they are doing is one. My sister was addicted to crack, should I just have allowed that? No.


If it seems you might prove statements with only one example then so can I...
No teenagers can make an informed decision? How many teenagers do you know? For starters i am 21 years old now, not exactly a teenager anymore i know, but when i was 16, i was already organizing quite a bunch, and i don't mean stuff like scouts but well organized organizations (by which i don't want to have claimed that the scouts aren't since i don't know about that) were asking me to organize some (indeed smaller) events of theres. By the age of 17 i was responsible for the technical aspect of 2 organizations and by the age of 18 could I've already been in the daily government of two organizations (if you like to know what they all did: the first one takes care of practically all cultural events in one village about 53 things a year, an the second one is a commission to raise funds for a school) and completely in charge of 1 (which is organizing sport events) (and yes several 40-60 year old people asked me to do so, even when i was, and still am one of there youngest members. Because of a lack of time i refused though, with the promise that i would do so right after i graduate)
At the age of 20 i formed an own sub-organization and that is running pretty well in fact!

sorry to be a little off topic first, but it really pissed me of to read such a thing... and i apologize as well if someone feels offended by the reaction i gave
Back on subject:
I do think it should be legalized in all countries, as long as it is monitored by some extern organ to prevent minors to work/come there. Also it should be so that no person should work there against his/her will (so that (wo)men can't be "bought" to force them to have sex somewhere...) Furthermore do they need to have adequate protection like condoms and stuff to prevent them of getting sexual diseases. And last but not least, there should be some kind of a policy that if a customer gets annoying (aka wants to do stuff the prostitute doesn't want) the customer gets kicked out...

The reason i do feel this way is the following. I do think that anyone can do with his/her own time/life/body what he/she wants to do. Even if it is selling crack to children like the example that is used before... However when doing so one should be capable to face to consequences. To go to the crack example again, the dealer can be caught and put into jail/pay a ticket... At the hooker thing she could get pregnant and he/she can get a sexual disease since no single protection guarantees 100% safety... (but thats a different discussion i guess) besides although it might sounds harsh but accidents do happen everywhere.
An other reason is that when you don't legalize it, it is very likely to happen as well, but then the government can't control the business and thus people get dumped in all kinds of situations where they are nothing more then a piece of meat indeed... Plus, and this is a more pragmatic reason, won't get any income from taxes...
A third reason is that when you don't legalize it, and there is some kind of a frustrated guy/girl out there that really wants to get laid at the same time he/she thinks it might be fun, so he/she is likely to rape someone... And to top it with a emotional argument (which i usually don't like to use, but I'll use anyway since you appear to like them) I would rather see my (theoretical) daughter to be a prostitute, the job which under upper conditions she would have chosen for, then to be raped by someone, which, of course, she didn't chose for...

This doesn't change the fact that you can't enter a debate and state "it's a fact that pigs fly (for example)" without demonstrating any sort of evidence that pigs fly. It also doesn't change the fact that I seem to recall a thread several months ago where you participated with this same argument and got pwned because your evidence wasn't any good (or didn't exist, I can't remember).

if I remember that thread correctly, it was a study by some feminist on legalizing Prostitution in Nevada (specifically Las Vegas). the problem is that he kept saying "read the book" when the book had printing problems and was delayed for months. so his only "evidence" was interpretations by other people who only read snippets of the report.

and all his examples that he could bring up about "bad conditions in Legal Brothels in Las Vegas" were shot down due to one fact. THERE ARE CURRENTLY NO LEGAL BROTHELS IN LAS VEGAS. All Brothels in Las Vegas are ILLEGAL. or all his 'examples' were actually strip clubs and dancers who are NOT prostitutes.

Legalizing and Legislating is not just saying "ok, it's legal now." no, it's setting up the policies and procedures to regulate the business. proving protection for both employees and customers as well as making medical and legal assistance available.

I agree with Barringtonia when (s)he says it's not as simple as most say it is. but that's it. it can work, it can be made to work and it can not only save lives, but repair abused ones at that.

and all his examples that he could bring up about "bad conditions in Legal Brothels in Las Vegas" were shot down due to one fact. THERE ARE CURRENTLY NO LEGAL BROTHELS IN LAS VEGAS. All Brothels in Las Vegas are ILLEGAL. or all his 'examples' were actually strip clubs and dancers who are NOT prostitutes.
Yup. I believe Nevada gives the option for the county to legalize brothels if their population is below a certain level, 400,000, I think... Reno (Washoe County) and Las Vegas (Clark County) don't qualify.

Sweet jesus he got it! You can as long as you getting involved helps that person, if not stay out! So if you sister is a crack addict it would be ok for you to get involved because she would need your help and your help would save her life, if she is lets say for the sake of argument dressing like a goth you need to stay the fuck out. You only get involved when its for their own good no other reason.
So, why is legal, regulated prostitution something that people would need to be helped out of?


Let me put it this way, doing that allows you to take the prostitutes into custody, not put them in jail but in rehabilitation centers to help them get off of drugs if they are on any, give them free medical care and clean them up, also education and job placement and other government aid so they don't need to sell themselves. Free housing and the job would just be a starting point to build experience and get a paycheck, health care and education should be free anyway. I don't support arresting the men as for every man you jail 5 more will be willing to do what he did. FYI, the education would include whatever non-prostitution field they wish to get involved, alot of women sell themselves not as a career choice but as a last ditch attempt to make ends meet, no woman should have to do that.
This is no argument for keeping prostitution illegal. Are you going to make one, or are we all just meant to know that prostitution is bad without having it explained to us?

I just want to help them, you can't help all but I would like to see no woman have to do that. And some jobs may seem worse, but provide needed services like garbage pick up.
What makes you think they would need help if prostitution were legal and regulated? I mean, prostitution as it is now is a small step up from slavery, but the issue at hand is whether to legalise prostitution or not, not what to do about illegal prostitution.
Wolf Rulez, the one I just deleted should be the last. There were scads of 'em -- well, no, maybe four, but it seemed a lot -- hung up in the moderation queue. You now seem to have two copies -- 125 and 141 -- including the one I thought I'd nuked before, so I'll edit the copy out of your latest post (141).

Whew.

The delay doesn't automatically disappear at 11 -- this is a Jolt-type glitch, and Jolt is mysterious. But it will soon.
The System works in mysterious ways. [/cultist]

So, why is legal, regulated prostitution something that people would need to be helped out of?They might still have been pressured into it, or left no other choice due to circumstances. I suppose it depends on how well regulated it is; if these cases are eliminated by the regulation, then there wouldn't be a problem.
In some sense, I suppose, it's not just a job like any other, even when it is legal. While you could argue someone on welfare should take a job cleaning toilets, rather then be a burden on society; I don't think it should be a consideration that someone should become a prostitute on the same grounds. (Not that I'm suggesting anyone has said that; just that there are more considerations than legality and regulation)

They might still have been pressured into it, or left no other choice due to circumstances. I suppose it depends on how well regulated it is; if these cases are eliminated by the regulation, then there wouldn't be a problem.
That can happen in any low/no skills job. In fact, I'd say that most people in such jobs are in them because they need the money, not because they like the job. Does the mean we should outlaw them too?
In some sense, I suppose, it's not just a job like any other, even when it is legal. While you could argue someone on welfare should take a job cleaning toilets, rather then be a burden on society; I don't think it should be a consideration that someone should become a prostitute on the same grounds. (Not that I'm suggesting anyone has said that; just that there are more considerations than legality and regulation)
But why shouldn't they? Why is cleaning toilets something you should do, but having sex for money something you shouldn't?

That can happen in any low/no skills job. In fact, I'd say that most people in such jobs are in them because they need the money, not because they like the job. Does the mean we should outlaw them too?Certainly not outlaw them (I'm not for outlawing prostitution either). However, it would be much preferable if only people that wanted to do it would 'have to'. Which probably means it's time we get on developing robots to do those jobs for us, because it is unlikely many people want to. Unless perhaps the pay is increased to reflect the general publics distaste for doing the job themselves.

Why is cleaning toilets something you should do, but having sex for money something you shouldn't?That is a very good question*).
As you might guess, the foremost motivation I have is purely emotional; things like human integrity, right to their own body etc. And of course, there is a difference in how society looks at the job (albeit for much the same reasons as mine); if that changed, if prostitution was considered in general as a normal job and 'no big deal', then, well, then I probably would also consider it a normal job and no big deal, being part of society myself and perhaps more sheeplike than I'd care to admit. However, as it is, being known as a prostitute does generally reflect badly on you, much worse than having other crummy jobs does.

*) Assuming you meant to have it read as "Why is cleaning toilets something you should have to do, but having sex for money something you shouldn't have to?". Because obviously, if people want to have money for sex, they should (err, well, not in the sense they then have the obligation to; but in the sense they should be free to do as they want)
Actually, I'd much prefer people didn't have to clean toilets to make a living either, there should simply be enough monetary incentive that they'd want to (but not because the alternative is starvation and homelessness).

Certainly not outlaw them (I'm not for outlawing prostitution either). However, it would be much preferable if only people that wanted to do it would 'have to'. Which probably means it's time we get on developing robots to do those jobs for us, because it is unlikely many people want to. Unless perhaps the pay is increased to reflect the general publics distaste for doing the job themselves.
Well I'm not sure that prostitution would even be all that like manual labour jobs. I mean, look at the porn industry. Not just anyone can show up and be a porn star, you have to be attractive, have limited acting ability and maybe some sexual prowess, or at least really big tits or a huge dick. The same would be true, I imagine, of prostitution. Who'd have sex with an emaciated crack whore in a filthy alley when you could head over to the red light district and have sex with an actual woman in a nice warm brothel? :)

As George Carlin once said, "I do not understand why prostitution is illegal. Why should prostitution be illegal. Selling is legal. Fucking is legal. Why isn't selling fucking legal? You know, why should it be illegal to sell something that's perfectly legal to give away. I can't follow the logic on that at all. Of all the things you can do to a person, giving someone an orgasm is hardly the worst thing in the world. In the army they give you a medal for spraying napalm on people. Civilian life, you go to jail for giving someone an orgasm. Maybe I'm not supposed to understand it."

So, why is legal, regulated prostitution something that people would need to be helped out of?

Same reason legal, regulated work in a factory is often something people need to be helped out of. Just because a job is legal doesn't mean it's necessarily a good one. Just because somebody is doing legal work doesn't necessarily mean they don't need help.

Think about it this way: would you want to be fucked by people you don't like in order to pay your bills? Probably not. It doesn't sound like a great job.

I'm sure that there are some people who are fine with it, just like there are some people who are fine with cleaning toilets for a living, but I also think that the demand far outweighs the number of people who would CHOOSE to supply the service. There are far more dirty toilets in the world than there are people who like to clean them, in other words. So the people who end up cleaning toilets are generally people who would much, much rather be doing something else. People who have other options don't choose to clean toilets for a living.

Which means that, just like today, most sex workers would be in sex work because they don't have other options. Legalizing it wouldn't fix that. It wouldn't magically make it so that only people who wanted to be whores would be whores. And it certainly wouldn't magically raise the pay for the whores. If anything, it would probably result in a drop in pay. Kind of like how legalizing drugs will generally result in a drop in the price compared to illegal street sales.


This is no argument for keeping prostitution illegal. Are you going to make one, or are we all just meant to know that prostitution is bad without having it explained to us?
Selling sex, in and of itself, isn't any better or worse than selling any other service (in my opinion). But we don't exist in a vacuum. Keeping in mind the context of the world we live in, I think it's important to realize that legalizing prostitution isn't going to be a magic bullet, and it might cause some problems even if it solves others.

Myself, I'm still going back and forth on this topic.


What makes you think they would need help if prostitution were legal and regulated? I mean, prostitution as it is now is a small step up from slavery, but the issue at hand is whether to legalise prostitution or not, not what to do about illegal prostitution.

It's legal to employ people in factories, too, yet a whole shitload of factories around the world are less than a step up from slavery. And many of them are nice and legal. Odds are, at least one item in your home right now was made in a factory like that, and odds are it was perfectly legal. (I now know of three in mine which were.)

I'm not saying this to be an asshole or to accuse you of anything. My only point is that legalization doesn't magic away the problems you are talking about. There's more to the subject than "to legalize, or not legalize."

As George Carlin once said, "I do not understand why prostitution is illegal. Why should prostitution be illegal. Selling is legal. Fucking is legal. Why isn't selling fucking legal? You know, why should it be illegal to sell something that's perfectly legal to give away. I can't follow the logic on that at all. Of all the things you can do to a person, giving someone an orgasm is hardly the worst thing in the world. In the army they give you a medal for spraying napalm on people. Civilian life, you go to jail for giving someone an orgasm. Maybe I'm not supposed to understand it."
Which would be great, if whores were actually given orgasms by their customers.

Sex workers are paid to SUPPLY the orgasms, not to receive them. I know everyone loves the Pretty Woman myth, and I know there's always that one high-paid hooker who steps up to insist that she loves getting fucked by strangers and gets off on it, but the reality is that the overwhelming majority of sex workers are poor women and children who submit to being masturbatory aids for meager pay. They don't get off on it. They don't enjoy it. Most of them are raped on a regular basis.

All I want is for people to be honest about what we're talking about. Sex work is not about two people getting each other off and one person getting paid for the exchange. It's about one person's body being used to satisfy the other, in exchange for money. If you want to argue the merits of that then we certainly can, but let's not waste time on bullshit about how prostitutes are being given orgasms left and right.

Which would be great, if whores were actually given orgasms by their customers.

Sex workers are paid to SUPPLY the orgasms, not to receive them.Not to be nitpicky, but I don't see how the Carlin quote states that that isn't the case.

Not to be nitpicky, but I don't see how the Carlin quote states that that isn't the case.
I know, and I think I was unclear (sorry!)...

My problem is when people turn this type of discussion into one about sexual pleasure. I think it's very easy to get misled onto a different topic when that happens, because it turns into a debate about sexual Puritanism versus sexual liberation and all that jazz. Which is an important topic on its own, of course, but is a bit different from the subject of sex work in general.

I realize now that my post came off more accusatory toward the person I quoted than I had intended. I was making a general comment, NOT trying to yell at any one person in particular, and I know I didn't make that clear. Whoops!

Unfortunately they exist. Despite prostitution being legal in the Netherlands, there are still crack whores and people using them. Some people don't very much care about the condition of their prostitute if the price is right.True. Legalizing will not make this go away. It will, however, prevent all prostitutes from being in that situation.

Who'd have sex with an emaciated crack whore in a filthy alley when you could head over to the red light district and have sex with an actual woman in a nice warm brothel? :)Unfortunately they exist. Despite prostitution being legal in the Netherlands, there are still crack whores and people using them. Some people don't very much care about the condition of their prostitute if the price is right.

Who'd have sex with an emaciated crack whore in a filthy alley when you could head over to the red light district and have sex with an actual woman in a nice warm brothel? :)
Who'd buy a crappy fast-food burger when you could go into a nice restaurant and have some quality steak?

If prostitution is legalized, how long do you think it will take before we have brothels that cater to the "fast food" demographic? How long do you think it will be before they start putting up signs bragging about how many millions they've served? How long before they realized that the Dollar Menu idea is ridiculously profitable, or introduce Combo deals where you buy a blowjob and get a handjob for half price?

I'm American. I would die of shock if it took longer than 6 months.

Who'd buy a crappy fast-food burger when you could go into a nice restaurant and have some quality steak?

If prostitution is legalized, how long do you think it will take before we have brothels that cater to the "fast food" demographic? How long do you think it will be before they start putting up signs bragging about how many millions they've served? How long before they realized that the Dollar Menu idea is ridiculously profitable, or introduce Combo deals where you buy a blowjob and get a handjob for half price?

I'm American. I would die of shock if it took longer than 6 months.Yes, but would that really be worse than outlawing all restaurants and having fast food restaurants springing up in back alleys as the only way to be able to buy food?.

Yes, but would that really be worse than outlawing all restaurants and having fast food restaurants springing up in back alleys as the only way to be able to buy food?.
Well, see, this is where my two minds on the subject come into play.

On the one hand, I don't believe in making something illegal just because it might have bad consequences if legal. For instance, I support legalized drugs, even though drugs can do horrible things to people. I don't support making fast food illegal just because it's shitty food. I don't support making prostitution illegal just because it's creepy sex.

On the other hand, imagine a world where all restaurants were required to maintain a certain level of quality in their product. Imagine if every time you went out to eat you KNEW you'd get good food, because it was illegal for a place to sell you crap. I guarantee that competition would push the prices down if that's all they could sell, so people would probably be able to get healthier food for less than it costs right now. Meanwhile, the cost of the crap food would actually go up, just like the cost of drugs go up when they're illegal. (Example: ephedra used to sell for next to nothing on the street, but now that it's illegal you can pay your way through college if you manage to secure a supply. And American college is fucking expensive.)

Problem is, you'd also get the crime that goes along with illegal fast food. When people are buying or selling an illegal product, they can't very well resort to legal channels to settle disputes. They often can't rely on legal avenues for financing their illegal activities. And, of course, this disproportionately impacts the poor. Rich people who do illegal things tend to have more ways to avoid getting caught, and more ways to quietly make their legal problems go away if they are caught. Poor people don't. I tend to feel that being poor is shitty enough on its own without adding any extra troubles on top of it.

If prostitution is legalized, how long do you think it will take before we have brothels that cater to the "fast food" demographic? How long do you think it will be before they start putting up signs bragging about how many millions they've served? How long before they realized that the Dollar Menu idea is ridiculously profitable, or introduce Combo deals where you buy a blowjob and get a handjob for half price?That's why regulation, aside from legalization, is important. Once prostitution is legal sex-workers can get rights and the law can enforce them.

Should prostitution be legalized?

It already is legal in some places, and yes

Same reason legal, regulated work in a factory is often something people need to be helped out of. Just because a job is legal doesn't mean it's necessarily a good one. Just because somebody is doing legal work doesn't necessarily mean they don't need help.
This is true, but not really a reason not to legalise prostitution.

Think about it this way: would you want to be fucked by people you don't like in order to pay your bills? Probably not. It doesn't sound like a great job.
No, it doesn't. But the bills need paying.

I'm sure that there are some people who are fine with it, just like there are some people who are fine with cleaning toilets for a living, but I also think that the demand far outweighs the number of people who would CHOOSE to supply the service. There are far more dirty toilets in the world than there are people who like to clean them, in other words. So the people who end up cleaning toilets are generally people who would much, much rather be doing something else. People who have other options don't choose to clean toilets for a living.

Which means that, just like today, most sex workers would be in sex work because they don't have other options. Legalizing it wouldn't fix that. It wouldn't magically make it so that only people who wanted to be whores would be whores. And it certainly wouldn't magically raise the pay for the whores. If anything, it would probably result in a drop in pay. Kind of like how legalizing drugs will generally result in a drop in the price compared to illegal street sales.
That price drop bit hadn't occurred to me. But it just seems to me that legalisation would provide a legal alternative to some prostitutes at least. It wouldn't magically make the problems disappear, of course, but I think it would be better than nothing.


Selling sex, in and of itself, isn't any better or worse than selling any other service (in my opinion). But we don't exist in a vacuum. Keeping in mind the context of the world we live in, I think it's important to realize that legalizing prostitution isn't going to be a magic bullet, and it might cause some problems even if it solves others.
Of course. I just think it would be more good than bad.


Who'd buy a crappy fast-food burger when you could go into a nice restaurant and have some quality steak?

If prostitution is legalized, how long do you think it will take before we have brothels that cater to the "fast food" demographic? How long do you think it will be before they start putting up signs bragging about how many millions they've served? How long before they realized that the Dollar Menu idea is ridiculously profitable, or introduce Combo deals where you buy a blowjob and get a handjob for half price?

I'm American. I would die of shock if it took longer than 6 months.

This had not occurred to me.
*ponders*

Should prostitution be legalized?

Yes.
In fact, it is.
But that isn't quite enough yet, it needs to be recognised as a profession, with all the legal protection and social security that comes with that.

Who'd buy a crappy fast-food burger when you could go into a nice restaurant and have some quality steak?

If prostitution is legalized, how long do you think it will take before we have brothels that cater to the "fast food" demographic? How long do you think it will be before they start putting up signs bragging about how many millions they've served? How long before they realized that the Dollar Menu idea is ridiculously profitable, or introduce Combo deals where you buy a blowjob and get a handjob for half price?

I'm American. I would die of shock if it took longer than 6 months.

I believe this is the case already, both in countries where prostitution is legal and in countrie where it's not.
In the countries where prostitution is illegal, prostitutes can't advertise, but from what I resd that doesn't stop price wars going on in the streets.

My only point is that legalization doesn't magic away the problems you are talking about. There's more to the subject than "to legalize, or not legalize."

Of course not, but now one can start to investigate the environment with an extern bureau. Make rules about a minimum payment of legal hookers, stronger repression on illegal ones (since in every job it is quite frustrating to see that you need to pay taxes, but someone who is doing the same job doesn't since he/she does it illegal...) Regulations about health care etc of the employees... And let the market do its thing. I don't expect big differences on the bill that a client needs to pay, since after all, there will be likely the be a difference in quality, quantity etc etc. Thus, just in any other job, it might be likely to pay double for the same thing in one brothel compared to an other. And then it is to the customer to see if he/she was worth that extra money or not...
What would change dramatically, at least in my believes, is that there would be far less people forced to go into the prostitution business then there are now. Since when it is legal one can go and complain about the circumstances they are kept in etc. Furthermore could the persons whom have sexual transmittable diseases (both client and "seller") be banned from such locations, just like some people are banned from casino's... Yes this won't be easy, but what can be implanted is a monthly "checkup" from the hookers to see if he/she has one, and put out of the circuit after of course to prevent these things from spreading. Yes that would take away someone's payment, but i do believe that in such a case the health of the community has to be put above the individual. Although i would really feel sorry for him/her... I don't know how that is about every country in the world, but here in Belgium we have a rather good working social security. Hookers with, lets call it a work accident, could rely on this for some money until they can do whatever other job they want to do...

I agree and disagree at the same time. It's horrible, because it completely devolves a woman and she becomes nothing more than a tool.

How so? Why do you feel that this occurs with prostitution and not other jobs in the service industry?

Prostitution is completely and utterly intolerable; it is the most vile, most demeaning, most exploitative form of capitalism - the buying and selling of one's own body like it was some piece of meat.

And don't forget that the overwhelming majority of prostitutes - if not all - are in that position not through their own choice but because they were either physically kidnapped and forced into prostitution, because they were pressured into it by authority figures, or because they were desperate for money. No one should ever be in any of those situations if we can help it.

I don't see how legalization of prostitution would solve any of the problems related to the sex slave trade or the pressuring of women into this job by various means. The same people who are now hiding the act of prostitution itself would simply redirect their efforts to hide the history of the women they employed in their legal brothels and the fact that most of those women are there against their will or against their better judgement.

Rather than legalization, I suggest the abolition of penalties for the prostitutes - in fact, they should be encouraged to come to the police for help to get out of their predicament - and the introduction of extremely draconian punishment for anyone caught running a prostitution "business" or buying the services of a prostitute. In addition, the police should plant undercover agents as fake "prostitutes" to find and arrest would-be clients.

People would be far less willing to go out looking for a prostitute if they thought there was a good chance she might pull out a gun and a badge.

How so? Why do you feel that this occurs with prostitution and not other jobs in the service industry?

Oh, I have no idea....

:rolleyes:

Rather than legalization, I suggest the abolition of penalties for the prostitutes - in fact, they should be encouraged to come to the police for help to get out of their predicament - and the introduction of extremely draconian punishment for anyone caught running a prostitution "business" or buying the services of a prostitute. In addition, the police should plant undercover agents as fake "prostitutes" to find and arrest would-be clients.

People would be far less willing to go out looking for a prostitute if they thought there was a good chance she might pull out a gun and a badge.

In some parts of the USA this already occurs, but what happens in those area's? Well the hookers are moving to an other place, one where the police doesn't ruin the business... That might make sure that you don't see the problem at one place, but wouldn't stop the problems you are telling us about. Only strict government of the place can do relevant changes...

No one should ever be kidnapped and enslaved as a prostitute.

No one should ever be compelled into prostitution by desperate economic circumstances.

No one should ever have their sense of self and sexuality so degraded by a sexist and oppressive society as to compel them into prostitution.

No one should ever be forced into sex, period.

Solve all of those problems, and go ahead--legalize prostitution and treat it like any other occupation.

Until then, we should adopt a perspective of harm reduction--improve the conditions of prostitutes as much as possible, and seek to help them escape their circumstances as much as possible. Legalization may be a part of this sort of approach, but the exclusive drive towards it misses the point: exploitative prostitution (as the vast majority of prostitution in our society is) is not something we should just tolerate.

And certainly we should not pretend that in any sense it represents sexual liberation.

No one should ever be kidnapped and enslaved as a prostitute.

No one should ever be compelled into prostitution by desperate economic circumstances.

No one should ever have their sense of self and sexuality so degraded by a sexist and oppressive society as to compel them into prostitution.

No one should ever be forced into sex, period.

Solve all of those problems, and go ahead--legalize prostitution and treat it like any other occupation.

Until then, we should adopt a perspective of harm reduction--improve the conditions of prostitutes as much as possible, and seek to help them escape their circumstances as much as possible. Legalization may be a part of this sort of approach, but the exclusive drive towards it misses the point: exploitative prostitution (as the vast majority of prostitution in our society is) is not something we should just tolerate.

And certainly we should not pretend that in any sense it represents sexual liberation.

Of course we shouldn't tolerate that people are exploited for whatever it might be, since there are also people exploited in other business regions as well... Think of child labor for one...
But such things can only be affectively be investigated once it is legal... You just pop in and say, "hi, i do know all of this is illegal, but we still want to check if there aren't any people abused... please step aside for a while..."
By the way, please donate me the statistics that are proving that the vast majority of prostitutes are forced to do so... Since i have never seen such an investigation before (can't investigate effectively what is illegal :P) and thus am very interested in the results :)

By the way, please donate me the statistics that are proving that the vast majority of prostitutes are forced to do so...

I said "exploited", not "forced."

sorry about that i thought i've wrote exploited as well, but seems i didn't... Anyway you still can show me the statistics though... They should be as interesting i guess :)

Well pardon my unwitting sexism. In retrospect, Men and thier dignity are no longer products to be bought and sold either. Happy?
And if they (prostitutes of whatever gender) consent to being bought and sold, then wouldn't saying they shouldn't be allowed to choose that also be trampling on their dignity?

Who'd buy a crappy fast-food burger when you could go into a nice restaurant and have some quality steak?

If prostitution is legalized, how long do you think it will take before we have brothels that cater to the "fast food" demographic? How long do you think it will be before they start putting up signs bragging about how many millions they've served? How long before they realized that the Dollar Menu idea is ridiculously profitable, or introduce Combo deals where you buy a blowjob and get a handjob for half price?

I'm American. I would die of shock if it took longer than 6 months.
intersting point... however there are some points overlooked.

fast food places, no matter how 'fast' they want to get, they still have to obey health codes. storage of foods, proper cooking of said foods as well as temperatures, cleanliness and what not. the same would be for the legal prostitutes.

As for advertising... why not keep the same rules that are in place now.

sure they can offer a combo, but ask yourself this... have you heard of any man being able to get it back up after popping to take advantage of such a deal? ok I can see a buy ten tricks and get your 11th one free... or discounts for office parties... but then again, would that be so bad?

sure people would rather eat steak over McD's hamburgers. but how many can afford to eat steak with the same frequency. and as long as those burgers are properly cooked. no one is harmed.

one thing that people also overlook is the guidelines and regulations that govern legal businesses.

if legalized and legistlated (which it would have to be) workers would be required to have a clean, healthy, and safe working environments. what does that mean? gone would be the back alley quickies. Gone would be the drive to a deserted park/roadway/etc where the workers are more at risk than the customers. prostitutes would be taken off the streets and they would have clean places to work.

add to that, the workers would be more at ease in reporting abuse to the cops who would then not be concerned with the worker's trade but in the crime itself. eventurally, the prostitute or perhaps Courtisan would be a better word, would not be looked down as a sub human class but more of another form of entertainer.

Prostitution is completely and utterly intolerable; it is the most vile, most demeaning, most exploitative form of capitalism - the buying and selling of one's own body like it was some piece of meat. as long as it's the person's body, who else should beable to regulate what one does with their own body.

And don't forget that the overwhelming majority of prostitutes - if not all - are in that position not through their own choice but because they were either physically kidnapped and forced into prostitution, because they were pressured into it by authority figures, or because they were desperate for money. No one should ever be in any of those situations if we can help it.
points...
1) Source please.
2) alot of those trapped are trapped because they have little avenues of escape. by legalizing and legistlating/regulating it, you give them not only legal protection, but also medical protection as well. so by legalizing and regulating it, you will be offering help to those enslaved as well as forced into the business.

I don't see how legalization of prostitution would solve any of the problems related to the sex slave trade or the pressuring of women into this job by various means. The same people who are now hiding the act of prostitution itself would simply redirect their efforts to hide the history of the women they employed in their legal brothels and the fact that most of those women are there against their will or against their better judgement. simple.

by legalising it and regulating it the workers would now have protection under the law.

before legalizing/regulation

Peter the pimp would beating his girls when they don't make enough money.
Samatha the slave from country X would be trapped as a slave because Prostitution is illegal. thus she would be arrested. She won't turn in Peter the Pimp because it's her word against his and chances are, he won't be convicted.
to make enough money, samatha would be forced to do things that are dangerious as well as demeaning. she won't have a choice.


after Legalizing/Regulation

Peter the pimp can bitch slap his working girls and the girls can now legally have peter arrested and convicted for assault since Prostitution would be legal.
Samatha the slave would be rescued because those legally working the trade would know Samatha is new and a quick enquery would show that she was enslaved. the Legal prostitutes would assist because removing the slave trade/unlicenced workers would be removing the competition legally.
The workers would have the power to say "NO" and the legal backing to make that 'NO' stick.


Rather than legalization, I suggest the abolition of penalties for the prostitutes - in fact, they should be encouraged to come to the police for help to get out of their predicament - and the introduction of extremely draconian punishment for anyone caught running a prostitution "business" or buying the services of a prostitute. In addition, the police should plant undercover agents as fake "prostitutes" to find and arrest would-be clients.
how would you 'encourage' them to seek the police for help.

as you said, some of them turn to prostitution because that's their only source of income. so would you turn your paying customers in? would you expect them to?

by arresting the customers, sure, you scare the customers away. but that leaves the criminal element left to prey on those selling. those who would still buy would be those who will have no qualms in beating those girls. so how is it protecting them if they are forced to take jobs from people they would rather not speak to?

and you also contridict yourself. "the introduction of extremely draconian punishment for anyone caught running a prostitution "business"" some girls run themselves. so you won't punish them for being a prostitute, but since they are running a prostitution business, they will be arrested for that.

undercover cops are already being used. the fact that you are suggesting this shows how well they're working in your area.

People would be far less willing to go out looking for a prostitute if they thought there was a good chance she might pull out a gun and a badge.do you know how many cops are required for a prostitution sting?

1) the bait is NOT armed, nor does she carry a badge, nor does she wear any form of protection.
2) the TEAM of officers are nearby to insure her safety as well as arrest the perp. so assume 4 cops.

that's a 5 man team per sting operation. the team is nearby, but not that close since they don't want to scare their target away. so assume, for a street walker, half a block away. it may not be far to you, but think about all the things that can go wrong before the cops get there.

and do you honestly think 4 people can offer the adequte protection of their unarmed, unprotected comrade who is the bait?

and you will put those who are voluntarily in the business out of business. those already running illegal houses will still be free to run their illegal business because you have not improved the prostitute/police relationship, giving them no reason to run to the cops for help.

I believe this is the case already, both in countries where prostitution is legal and in countrie where it's not.
In the countries where prostitution is illegal, prostitutes can't advertise, but from what I resd that doesn't stop price wars going on in the streets.
Sure, there's still price wars on the streets, just like over drugs. It's kind of a different ballgame, though, particularly when you consider the scale of it.

Prostitution is completely and utterly intolerable; it is the most vile, most demeaning, most exploitative form of capitalism - the buying and selling of one's own body like it was some piece of meat.

So ? It is definately theirs to sell. Who are you to tell them what to do with their body ?

Yes, I like Italics.

intersting point... however there are some points overlooked.

fast food places, no matter how 'fast' they want to get, they still have to obey health codes. storage of foods, proper cooking of said foods as well as temperatures, cleanliness and what not. the same would be for the legal prostitutes.

Incorrect. They're still SUPPOSED to obey health codes. Just like factories are SUPPOSED to obey various regulations. I think it's pretty naive to think that just because they're supposed to do so they are actually going to.

Also, think about the government we have right now. Do you really trust them to oversee such things? In America, think about (for example) the way that Bush's appointees who were supposed to oversee environmental regulations were all former employees of the industries that want to rip the environment apart. Do you really think it's going to take long before the prostitution lobby gets its own people put in charge of monitoring the government regulations?


As for advertising... why not keep the same rules that are in place now.

sure they can offer a combo, but ask yourself this... have you heard of any man being able to get it back up after popping to take advantage of such a deal? ok I can see a buy ten tricks and get your 11th one free... or discounts for office parties... but then again, would that be so bad?

That wasn't my point, actually. The problem isn't that men might want a blowjob and a handjob. The problem is that the human body (and, let's face it, mostly the female body) would be sold like a side of fries. If you think that wouldn't have an impact on the entire culture--including all the men and women who are NOT prostitutes--I think you're kidding yourself.


sure people would rather eat steak over McD's hamburgers. but how many can afford to eat steak with the same frequency. and as long as those burgers are properly cooked. no one is harmed.

Again, not my point.

My point was that fast food exists because a huge number of people would rather eat cheap than spring for an expensive meal. Many of them couldn't afford the steak any how. Which is why you get cheap food for low prices. The problem here is not that people want to spend within their means, or that people like spending less money. My point was that legalized brothels aren't going to automatically create classy joints where the whores are well-off. Instead, I think it's more likely to result in "fast-food prostitution." Think about what that means for the prostitutes.

The fast food places can sell food for cheap because they buy cheap meat and cheap food items. "Fast food brothels" would likewise be able to maintain their profit margin only by buying bodies for cheap. They couldn't very well pay their whores luxurious wages and then charge customers $49.99 for the works, right?

Also, think about the protests over how animals are treated in the mass-production farms where they generate all the cheap meat for fast food joints. That's the lengths to which these LEGAL businesses will LEGALLY go to maintain their LEGAL profits.

one thing that people also overlook is the guidelines and regulations that govern legal businesses.

To be fair, I only overlook them because my government overlooks them.


if legalized and legistlated (which it would have to be) workers would be required to have a clean, healthy, and safe working environments. what does that mean? gone would be the back alley quickies.

How the hell do you figure that? If anything, I'd assume said quickies would be MORE common. Drive-thru sex and all that.


Gone would be the drive to a deserted park/roadway/etc where the workers are more at risk than the customers.

Again, I don't see how that would necessarily follow at all. I worked as a pizza delivery gal for exactly two days before I decided it just wasn't worth it, what with the constant threatening harassment I faced just bringing a fucking pizza to College Row. If prostitution were legalized, I'm sure similar "delivery services" would be instituted very quickly, and I don't see how the prostitutes would be any safer than I was. I wasn't even delivering sex and I got threatened and harassed. Imagine what would happen to women who were sent to that house to be a sex toy. Think of how escorts and strippers are treated on a routine basis.


prostitutes would be taken off the streets and they would have clean places to work.

And again, I see no reason to assume that.

Seriously, legalization simply wouldn't do the things you're talking about.


add to that, the workers would be more at ease in reporting abuse to the cops who would then not be concerned with the worker's trade but in the crime itself.

Yeah, right.

Kind of like how when a stripper reports being raped, the cops and the courts are NEVER concerned with her trade? After all, stripping is legal, which means strippers are at ease reporting assaults and rapes to the cops! We certainly never see cops choosing to ignore the story of a woman who takes her clothes off for money because she obviously got herself in trouble, right?


eventurally, the prostitute or perhaps Courtisan would be a better word, would not be looked down as a sub human class but more of another form of entertainer.

"Eventually" is a great word. Sure, after generations of legalized prostitution maybe our sensibilities would change. Bummer for all the prostitutes who had to live during the intervening time, though, huh?

The problem is that the human body (and, let's face it, mostly the female body) would be sold like a side of fries. If you think that wouldn't have an impact on the entire culture--including all the men and women who are NOT prostitutes--I think you're kidding yourself.

True. The dilemma is if that outweighs the right of women (and the occasional man) to determine what they wish to do with their own bodies.

Sure, there's still price wars on the streets, just like over drugs. It's kind of a different ballgame, though, particularly when you consider the scale of it.

The real difference is not so much the scale as the product. Drug prices go up and down according to supply, for which demand is unlimited.

Yet there's also an unlimited demand for sex and, unlike drugs, the product cannot be grown or manufactured.

Where does one get new supply from, because it will be 'procured' to meet demand - there's just too much money in it.

Secondly, in a society such as ours, where rape convictions are hard enough, it's laughable to hear people think that legalisation automatically grants rights to prostitutes, either that they'd report or be treated properly even where they do report.

Finally, customers report restaurants when quality is poor yet who's going to report poor quality of brothels, do we really see men, or women where applicable, willingly report illegal activity where it implies something about them? Disregarding rights and wrongs about illegal immigration, it's very under-reported itself and there's no real stigma associated with reporting there, do people really think citizens who've visited a brothel will do any different?

Anyone who's been to school knows the farcical nature of inspector visits and it's unlikely magic protection will be granted to prostitutes here either.

There's a disconnect between reality and theory - yes, in theory, legalisation is the best solution, in practice, not necessarily.

Ultimately, the aim is not to criminalise or stigmatise but to protect as many people as possible from abuse - therein lies the debate.

True. The dilemma is if that outweighs the right of women (and the occasional man) to determine what they wish to do with their own bodies.

True.

True. The dilemma is if that outweighs the right of women (and the occasional man) to determine what they wish to do with their own bodies.
Indeed. I am finding myself arguing only the "anti" side on this thread, but I want to reiterate that I'm very much of two minds on the subject. I'm arguing one side because it seems to be the less represented side right now.

The real difference is not so much the scale as the product. Drug prices go up and down according to supply, for which demand is unlimited.

Yet there's also an unlimited demand for sex and, unlike drugs, the product cannot be grown or manufactured.

Where does one get new supply from, because it will be 'procured' to meet demand - there's just too much money in it.

*snip for length*
All very good points, and exactly what I'm trying to get at.

It's not that I think legalization of prostitution is inherently a bad thing, it's that I think the current environment will result in shitty things happening if we legalize. So the real questions (for me) are these:

IF WE LEGALIZE,

1) Will things get better or worse for sex workers?
2) Will we be more or less likely to be able to help sex workers when shit happens?

The theoretical discussion about people's right to buy and sell sex has to take a back seat with me, because I am primarily concerned about the human rights of sex workers. In my personal priorities, nobody's right to buy (or sell) sex can trump human rights. If legalizing prostitution would result in sex workers being treated worse, then I'm not going to support it even if it would be the "right" thing to do in theory. I'm not willing to sacrifice other people's bodies just so that I can have my ideology and eat it too.

Indeed. I am finding myself arguing only the "anti" side on this thread, but I want to reiterate that I'm very much of two minds on the subject. I'm arguing one side because it seems to be the less represented side right now.

Indeed - part of the problem is that very little study has been done so it's very hard to say one way or another - I remember from the previous thread that the real thing that got me in terms of most of the studies against legalisation was the people who supported it, who seemed a little radical even for me.

There's a very good site on the other side, not really for legalisation as such but certainly for decriminalisation - which I'll quickly find and post because it's a subject where the more information the better over a right/wrong stance on it.

Here it is (http://www.bayswan.org/index.html) - it has strong counter-arguments to the 'do not legalise' stance.

Legalising, as in the Netherlands, Germany and Australia has been shown to increase illegal prostitution as well so to live in a dream world where legalisation would solve problems is utterly misguided. It increases illegal trafficking as well as condones the idea that men - regardless of the fact that men are prostitutes, a minority and often underage as well - can treat a women's body as a commodity, an empty jar.

Sources?

Let me put it this way, doing that allows you to take the prostitutes into custody, not put them in jail but in rehabilitation centers to help them get off of drugs if they are on any, give them free medical care and clean them up, also education and job placement and other government aid so they don't need to sell themselves. Free housing and the job would just be a starting point to build experience and get a paycheck, health care and education should be free anyway.

Your fairy tale omits the part where the woman gets arrested for commiting a crime. Because she has to confess to a crime to receive all these opportunities. And when you confess to a crime, you ususally face legal repercussions. Legalisation is therefore required as one of the steps towards getting sex workers out of the sex trade if they desire to leave it.

This one I really should source because, my mistake, it was Philadelphia not Germany and I apologise to Germans for that :(

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teresa_Carr_Deni

Fortunately, the Philadelphia Bar Association (http://www.philadelphiabar.org/page/NewsItem?appNum=1&newsItemID=1000699) thinks she was completely wrong:

Judge Deni's subsequent remarks, as reported, unfortunately point out that her decision in this case was based on a pre-existing bias as to when sex can be consented to, and as to when that consent can be withdrawn, and reflects, in my opinion, a clear disregard of the legal definition of rape and the rule of law in this case.


Selling sex, in and of itself, isn't any better or worse than selling any other service (in my opinion). But we don't exist in a vacuum. Keeping in mind the context of the world we live in, I think it's important to realize that legalizing prostitution isn't going to be a magic bullet, and it might cause some problems even if it solves others....My only point is that legalization doesn't magic away the problems you are talking about. There's more to the subject than "to legalize, or not legalize."

True. If we really want to ensure that sex workers have the same rights and respect as any other proffession, we have to change many things. This includes, but is not limited to, changing western society's views about sex in general and women in general.

And certainly we should not pretend that in any sense it represents sexual liberation.

For some it may, but you are correct in that it should not be the main thrust of any argument for legalisation of sex work.

Being someone who has never been involved in the sex trade, I can not say I have an intelligent and informed opinion on it, but I think the first people to ask in this sort of debate would be the sex workers themselves.

Most seem to be pro-legalisation:

http://www.sfbg.com/38/18/cover_hookers.html
http://www.bayswan.org/berkeleyinitiative.html

True. If we really want to ensure that sex workers have the same rights and respect as any other proffession, we have to change many things. This includes, but is not limited to, changing western society's views about sex in general and women in general.

I guess in that sense my view isn't so much about should we legalize or shouldn't we, but rather WHEN should we legalize?

Do we legalize now, knowing that there are so many changes that would have to happen before the legalization would really be a good thing, but hoping that legalization itself will make those changes happen sooner? Or do we wait until the changes have already happened before we legalize?

In favor of the first idea, one thing feminism has shown me is that shit don't change by itself. If we're going to change people's views about women, gender, and sex, we have to make the change happen because it's probably not going to happen all by itself. Also, these changes are good things in and of themselves, so they are ends worth working towards and worth sacrificing for.

In favor of the second idea, I'm not one of the people being asked to sacrifice in this case. I'm not a sex worker, and I most likely never will be. It's easy for me to say that it's worth sacrificing in order to make change, if I'm not one of the human beings who will literally be sacrificing their bodies for this change to happen. We also can work to change people's views without legalizing prostitution, so we know it's not NECESSARY to do so. It just might speed up the process. Also, when we keep something illegal we are basically expressing disapproval of it. Well, right now, in the world we have, in our context, I think prostitution generally sucks. It doesn't have to be rotten, but it usually is. I don't approve of that. Legalizing prostitution as we currently know it seems rotten to me because I don't approve of prostitution as we know it. If we FIRST fix people's views and attitudes about sex--to the point where prositution isn't so generally crappy--then I'd feel much better about legalizing it and expressing tacit approval (or at least lack of active disapproval).

I guess in that sense my view isn't so much about should we legalize or shouldn't we, but rather WHEN should we legalize?...If we FIRST fix people's views and attitudes about sex--to the point where prositution isn't so generally crappy--then I'd feel much better about legalizing it and expressing tacit approval (or at least lack of active disapproval).

If we approcah it as a question of when we should legalise, I would go for a local approach in coordination with sex workers, as they would have the knowledge and experience to deal with all the myriad issues that would become part of the debate. And it is important to note that what may work in Nevada may not work in Montreal or Bangkok, as each of these places views women and sex work differently. Blanket statements and one-size-fits-all policies about sex work do not address local issues and complexities. Especially if they come from on high, made by those of us who have little or no experience in the realities of sex work.

I share your ambivalence, but I am definitely on the side of the sex workers and whatever they choose to do.

Blanket statements and one-size-fits-all policies about sex work do not address local issues and complexities.

Very very true, now if we can extend that thought out to all area's of life then perhaps we'll one day get a decent government.

All very good points, and exactly what I'm trying to get at.

It's not that I think legalization of prostitution is inherently a bad thing, it's that I think the current environment will result in shitty things happening if we legalize. So the real questions (for me) are these:

IF WE LEGALIZE,

1) Will things get better or worse for sex workers?
2) Will we be more or less likely to be able to help sex workers when shit happens?

The theoretical discussion about people's right to buy and sell sex has to take a back seat with me, because I am primarily concerned about the human rights of sex workers. In my personal priorities, nobody's right to buy (or sell) sex can trump human rights. If legalizing prostitution would result in sex workers being treated worse, then I'm not going to support it even if it would be the "right" thing to do in theory. I'm not willing to sacrifice other people's bodies just so that I can have my ideology and eat it too.

if one just legalizes it without regulations, yes, there is a chance of things not changing or getting worse. however, if regulated, (laws and policies created for this type of industry) the workers will have a legal way out of undesireable situations as well as legal options for those who would wrong them.

if legalized and given the same coverage as employment laws, then one thing given to them is legal protection. the reason why they don't go to the cops when something bad happens with them is not because cops look down on them. hell no. it's because to report it in is to admit that they were doing something illegal.

some say decriminalize it but keep buying sex illegal. that won't change anything because the workers would remain silent to keep their customers. peope would not go to a place that would turn them into the cops, would you?

and if you add policies such as mandatory health checkup and inspections, you also provide medical protection for both employees and customers.

heck. you can make unsafe sex illegal. make different grades of licencing to reflect the different fetishes out there, and making it illegal for one grade of worker being hired for a different grade of job.

By registering them (as one would do with nurses, doctors, and other jobs that has body fluid contact) you can easily find those who are traffiked into the business by the fact that they wouldn't have a licence or permit.

Legalisation is the popular 'right-on' opinion on prostitution but the tide is turning.

The UK will probably change the law this year to criminalise customers, not the prostitutes, but the customers and other countries are closely looking at it.

Legalising, as in the Netherlands, Germany and Australia has been shown to increase illegal prostitution as well so to live in a dream world where legalisation would solve problems is utterly misguided. It increases illegal trafficking as well as condones the idea that men - regardless of the fact that men are prostitutes, a minority and often underage as well - can treat a women's body as a commodity, an empty jar.

In a perfect world, legalisation is the right answer but we don't live in a perfect world.
The illegal trafficking is the problem, then, not the prostitution.

Prostitution is voluntary exchange. It's one person selling her labour. There's absolutely no reason to prohibit or interfere in that.

The illegal trafficking is the problem, then, not the prostitution.

Prostitution is voluntary exchange. Not when they are forced to do it (e.g by traffickers who will beat them up or kill them if they don't).

Not when they are forced to do it (e.g by traffickers who will beat them up or kill them if they don't).

that would make it traffiking... or slavery, or assault/terroristic threatening, etc...

If we approcah it as a question of when we should legalise, I would go for a local approach in coordination with sex workers, as they would have the knowledge and experience to deal with all the myriad issues that would become part of the debate. And it is important to note that what may work in Nevada may not work in Montreal or Bangkok, as each of these places views women and sex work differently. Blanket statements and one-size-fits-all policies about sex work do not address local issues and complexities. Especially if they come from on high, made by those of us who have little or no experience in the realities of sex work.

I share your ambivalence, but I am definitely on the side of the sex workers and whatever they choose to do.
Well put, and a good point about how different places will require different approaches.

that would make it traffiking... or slavery, or assault/terroristic threatening, etc...
What JuNii said.