NationStates Jolt Archive

This was sparked off by a discussion in my English lit. class on Hamlet.

I would like to be enlightened and hear some of other people's answers to these questions...


1. Is there such thing as 'conscious' martyrdom?
I was always under the impression that one assumes the title of martyr when one knowingly and actively choosing to suffer for their beliefs. Therefore, can one be an unwilling and/or oblivious martyr?

2. What, if any, is the difference between martyrdom and suicide?
I believe that suicide is a series of actions chosen with full knowledge of what the consequences may be (going against one's sense of self-preservation). Thus, I would classify suicide-by-cop as suicide (as opposed to murder). Therefore, martyrdom and suicide appear to me as different words for the same thing.

3. Can the martyrdom of Jesus Christ be considered suicide?
As it appears to me, Jesus knew he would die but continued on his course of action. Even if one dies for a belief or cause, isn't it just suicide in the end (considering one does reject self-preservation)?

Sorry in advance for any religious debate this may cause.

This was sparked off by a discussion in my English lit. class on Hamlet.

I would like to be enlightened and hear some of other people's answers to these questions...


1. Is there such thing as 'conscious' martyrdom?
I was always under the impression that one assumes the title of martyr when one knowingly and actively choosing to suffer for their beliefs. Therefore, can one be an unwilling and/or oblivious martyr?

2. What, if any, is the difference between martyrdom and suicide?
I believe that suicide is a series of actions chosen with full knowledge of what the consequences may be (going against one's sense of self-preservation). Thus, I would classify suicide-by-cop as suicide (as opposed to murder). Therefore, martyrdom and suicide appear to me as different words for the same thing.

3. Can the martyrdom of Jesus Christ be considered suicide?
As it appears to me, Jesus knew he would die but continued on his course of action. Even if one dies for a belief or cause, isn't it just suicide in the end (considering one does reject self-preservation)?

Sorry in advance for any religious debate this may cause.

Jesus knew he wouldn't die, surely?

2. What, if any, is the difference between martyrdom and suicide?
I believe that suicide is a series of actions chosen with full knowledge of what the consequences may be (going against one's sense of self-preservation). Thus, I would classify suicide-by-cop as suicide (as opposed to murder). Therefore, martyrdom and suicide appear to me as different words for the same thing.Suicide is "self killing". That's what it means. Someone else killing you can only be suicide in a metaphoric, but never a literal sense.

I was always under the impression that one assumes the title of martyr when one knowingly and actively choosing to suffer for their beliefs. Therefore, can one be an unwilling and/or oblivious martyr?
Yes, if they are killed for thier cause and don't mean to be. (assasination)

2. What, if any, is the difference between martyrdom and suicide?
I believe that suicide is a series of actions chosen with full knowledge of what the consequences may be (going against one's sense of self-preservation). Thus, I would classify suicide-by-cop as suicide (as opposed to murder). Therefore, martyrdom and suicide appear to me as different words for the same thing.
Suicide, you personally kill yourself, and it is rarely for a purpose other than to put yourslef out of your suffering.
Martyrdom you are harmed for a cause. You may but yourself in a position to suffer, die or be injured but someone/thing else actually inflicts it.

3. Can the martyrdom of Jesus Christ be considered suicide?
As it appears to me, Jesus knew he would die but continued on his course of action. Even if one dies for a belief or cause, isn't it just suicide in the end (considering one does reject self-preservation)?

Anless you kill by your own hand I don't think that it is suicide. If you put yourself in a position where you will have to die I don't think it is suicide. When we avoid such predicaments we are merely post-poning the inevitable.

So, no, I don't. I think that if the bible is true than Jesus did not commit suicide but was murdered or sacrificed.

So, no, I don't. I think that if the bible is true than Jesus did not commit suicide but was murdered or sacrificed.


Doesn't the scripture basically say Jesus 'killed' himself, though? He 'gave up the ghost'? He said no one could 'take his life'? I'm right, right?

Martyrdom is a concept used to rally people to a cause by deifying someone who died, purportedly for that cause. It's a political tool.

Doesn't the scripture basically say Jesus 'killed' himself, though? He 'gave up the ghost'? He said no one could 'take his life'? I'm right, right?

Wasn't that just indicating his willingness to die? I interpret that as being figurative while literally it was the Romans/God that killed him...

Suicide is "self killing". That's what it means. Someone else killing you can only be suicide in a metaphoric, but never a literal sense.

The metaphorical sense is more important in this discussion than the literal, primary definition of 'to kill oneself.'

Regardless, if suicide were only to be considered in that sense, there wouldn't be any concept of suicide-by-cop or suicide attack or any concept at all of seeking death through another party. Furthermore, we wouldn't have a notion of 'political suicide' or 'commercial suicide', etc.

What I want to know is this: is there any inherent difference between putting oneself in a situation in which one is likely to die and suicide (besides the means of course)?

If not, wouldn't martyrdom be the same thing as suicide?

What I want to know is this: is there any inherent difference between putting oneself in a situation in which one is likely to die and suicide (besides the means of course)?

If not, wouldn't martyrdom be the same thing as suicide?
Martyrdom is suffering for a cause to further it. Maybe they could overlap, if someone killed themselves and then became a martyr for better mental healthcare. But suicide is primarily about ending your life and martyrdom is primarily about furthering your cause.
Also, I feel that there is a difference between putting yourself in a poistion where you are liekly to die or purposely doing something that will definatly end your life.
Eg. If you blow yourself up for your cause and it gains support so that more people adhere to your beliefs (political, social, theological etc.) you both commit suicide and become a martyr.
If you join a cause and fight and suffer and then get assasinated and it gains support so that more people adhere to your beliefs (political, social, theological etc.) you may have put yourself into a position in which you know you are likely to die but it is not suicide but is martyrdom.

Martyrdom is a concept used to rally people to a cause by deifying someone who died, purportedly for that cause. It's a political tool.

I agree, martyrdom is also known as altruistic suicide, but with one difference the martyr might not want to have died, it's just spinned out to give other people to rally behind a cause to kill the martyr's killers.

One example of altruistic suicide could be Japanese Kamikazi pilots, some reasons why they were willing to die for their war was because the US forces didn't take prisoners, and used Flamers.
Also up until that War Japan had never lost a war instilling a national spirit of invulnerability. That's not to say all the pilots wanted to die, as some didn't but as the War got progressively ugly they were given few options to die fighting or be shot as a prisoner.
Martyrdom is not a nice idea. I doubt people want to be Martyrs unless they have no options to escape death.

The metaphorical sense is more important in this discussion than the literal, primary definition of 'to kill oneself.'

Regardless, if suicide were only to be considered in that sense, there wouldn't be any concept of suicide-by-cop or suicide attack or any concept at all of seeking death through another party. Furthermore, we wouldn't have a notion of 'political suicide' or 'commercial suicide', etc.Terms 1, 3, and 4 refer to the metaphorical meaning, especially the last two, where you aren't even killing yourself. Term 2 is suicide and homicide together.

What I want to know is this: is there any inherent difference between putting oneself in a situation in which one is likely to die and suicide (besides the means of course)?Yes, there is a difference. You're not the one doing the killing in the first instance.

If not, wouldn't martyrdom be the same thing as suicide?The outcome is the same, but the means and therefore the act itself is different.

The U.S forces DID take prisoners. Anyway you contradicted yourself, first you said they did not take prisoners then you said they got shot AS prisoners.

I know, my knowledge is flawed but the point i was trying to make is still relevant.
sorry

I agree, martyrdom is also known as altruistic suicide, but with one difference the martyr might not want to have died, it's just spinned out to give other people to rally behind a cause to kill the martyr's killers.

One example of altruistic suicide could be Japanese Kamikazi pilots, some reasons why they were willing to die for their war was because the US forces didn't take prisoners, and used Flamers.
Also up until that War Japan had never lost a war instilling a national spirit of invulnerability. That's not to say all the pilots wanted to die, as some didn't but as the War got progressively ugly they were given few options to die fighting or be shot as a prisoner.
Martyrdom is not a nice idea. I doubt people want to be Martyrs unless they have no options to escape death.

The U.S forces DID take prisoners. Anyway you contradicted yourself, first you said they did not take prisoners then you said they got shot AS prisoners.

I know, my knowledge is flawed but the point i was trying to make is still relevant.
sorry

Np, but I do agreewith you that flamers were horrible, just imagine being burned alive. But hey the Japs tortured prisoners so I guess it's even in a horrible way. I am pretty sure that the main reasion that they rammed ships with their planes was because they were either conscripted or because they were fanatically loyal to their god-emperor.

You may put yourself in a situation where, if others stuck to the rules you know obtain in your country, you shouldn't be killed; but, because of the unreason of those doing the killing, you are.

For example, you protest against the government; you know the government arrests protestors, and usually sends them to prison; you know, though it's not legal, that you probably will be beaten up; but this time, you happen to be unlucky enough to get the guard who doesn't know when to stop, and you die.

You'll probably become a martyr, either for the cause you're protesting about, or for the reform of the prison system. But you didn't set out to.

There are different "layers" of martyrdom, too. Eliot's Murder in the Cathedral has Thomas Becket saying, "This last temptation is the greatest treason;/To do the right deed, for the wrong reason."

As I remember it (and it's a while since I've read it), he was resisting the King for what he considered the right reason, the authority of the church. He knew that his defiance might well lead to his death; but had he fooled himself into thinking his death was necessary, because he so wanted the spiritual crown of martyrdom?

(I can't remembr how Eliot resolved this; that dilemma always interested me more than the actual outcome. But, since Becket became a saint, I guess his church considers he acted in the right spirit.)

Yeah...

Martyrdom is dying FOR something (ie. more civil rights), while suicide is dying because of something (ie. depression). So they are not "different words for the same thing". Of course, suicide can be used as a way of achieving martyrdom.

You may attain martyrdom consciously (ie. hunger strike, immolation) or without your consent (ie. assassination or murdered by police at a demonstration) so "you can one be an unwilling and/or oblivious martyr".

Ultimately it depends on how the media/majority of people judge your death: you may kill yourself in order to become a martyr and help your cause, but if nobody gives a s**t you will be no martyr at all. On the other hand, some groups may USE the death of a member to further political objectives by calling him a martyr, notwithstanding the cause of death or anything else.

The Jesus thing is for another whole debate, a BIG one I'm in no mood of getting into.

Wasn't that just indicating his willingness to die? I interpret that as being figurative while literally it was the Romans/God that killed him...

Maybe - but...

John 10:11,17-8 "No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father".

No?

Maybe - but...

John 10:11,17-8 "No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father".

No?

Again, I interpret this as he himself admiting his willingness to die and his realisation of his "obligation", part of him being above us and yet under God as in he has his own life to give and take.
It's subjective really.

Again, I interpret this as he himself admiting his willingness to die and his realisation of his "obligation", part of him being above us and yet under God as in he has his own life to give and take.
It's subjective really.

He expressly states no man can TAKE his life, and that he lays it down himself, doesn't he?

If he doesn't surrender his own life... then he 'dies', just as every mortal dies - and the scripture says that death is the wages of sin, which conflicts with the idea of Jesus as 'without sin'...

If he was 'god, incarnate'... how could mere crucifixion 'kill' him?

I always thought that Martyrdom was then someone is killed because of their believes, generally by the opposing faction.

He expressly states no man can TAKE his life, and that he lays it down himself, doesn't he?
He states his willingness to die, yes.

If he doesn't surrender his own life... then he 'dies', just as every mortal dies - and the scripture says that death is the wages of sin, which conflicts with the idea of Jesus as 'without sin'...
Okay...

If he was 'god, incarnate'... how could mere crucifixion 'kill' him?
By taking him mortal life, his flesh. What would make him different would be his immortality, his divinity. The crucifixion would kill him in a mortal sense, but he would be more than that and the part of him from God (50% of gametes from each parent remember ;) ) would survive and deliever us from sin blah blah blah.