NationStates Jolt Archive

This may have been an "Honor killing." There was also one in Canada, I believe, about a month ago. In this latest case, the man had been in the US for about 20 years. I guess he didn't like it because his daughters, who were born here, were "Americanized." They were typical American teenagers and because of that they brought dishonor to him and the family so he killed them.

If he didn't want his children brought up in and "corrupted" by the American culture, then why did he come here in the first place? Why didn't he take his family and move back to Egypt? I just don't understand. If you don't want your kids to be influenced by the culture they are being raised in, then you need to take them and raise them in the culture you want them raised in.

Probably culture shock, and this is the result of said shock towards years of ingrained cultural indoctrinations by the new culture and environ.

Simply put,... he snapped.

Yeah the Canadian one was about a month ago...Source for the other one?

Sorry. Oh and MAY HAVE BEEN an honor killing. Not quite determined officially yet. http://prairiepundit.blogspot.com/2008/01/honor-killing-of-lewisville-texas-teens.html

This may have been an "Honor killing." There was also one in Canada, I believe, about a month ago. In this latest case, the man had been in the US for about 20 years. I guess he didn't like it because his daughters, who were born here, were "Americanized." They were typical American teenagers and because of that they brought dishonor to him and the family so he killed them.

If he didn't want his children brought up in and "corrupted" by the American culture, then why did he come here in the first place? Why didn't he take his family and move back to Egypt? I just don't understand. If you don't want your kids to be influenced by the culture they are being raised in, then you need to take them and raise them in the culture you want them raised in.

What the hell are you babbling about? :confused:

Yeah the Canadian one was about a month ago...Source for the other one?

What the hell are you babbling about? :confused:

Read the link I forgot to post LG. http://prairiepundit.blogspot.com/2008/01/honor-killing-of-lewisville-texas-teens.html

Stupidity does not have requirements.

[Statements to follow are ASSUMING that the individual in question is indeed guilty of honor killing.]


If he didn't want his children brought up in and "corrupted" by the American culture, then why did he come here in the first place?

Because he wanted to come here, and he also wanted to continue using his family as props and pets.


Why didn't he take his family and move back to Egypt?

Given that we are talking about a person who thinks his ego is more important than human life, why on Earth would you expect him to consider the welfare of his family in making such decisions?


I just don't understand. If you don't want your kids to be influenced by the culture they are being raised in, then you need to take them and raise them in the culture you want them raised in.
Or you raise them wherever you feel like because it's what YOU want, and you expect your children/wife/whatever to behave like a perfect little pet.

Just remember that the person engaging in the "honor killing" views his children/wife/whatever as objects, not as people. They are important only insofar as they reflect on him and make his life better. They exist for his pleasure. If they do something displeasing to him then they no longer have value. Why shouldn't he discard them like trash?

Read the link I forgot to post LG. http://prairiepundit.blogspot.com/2008/01/honor-killing-of-lewisville-texas-teens.html

I saw a video on it by CNN. I still don't get it. If it was the honorable thing to do, he wouldn't be evading justice, would he?

Assuming that he killed them(which hasn't been proven yet), he did it because he's scum. He has no honor to protect. Though I wonder if anybody considered the possibility that maybe he was murdered too.

Small nitpick: the focus is generally not on the him but on the family; which is not considered to be a collection of individuals but some sort of meta-organism which needs and value supercede that of the parts. Otherwise quite correct.


But who decides what those needs are? Sure as hell wasn't the daughters...

Just remember that the person engaging in the "honor killing" views his children/wife/whatever as objects, not as people. They are important only insofar as they reflect on him and make his life better. They exist for his pleasure. If they do something displeasing to him then they no longer have value. Why shouldn't he discard them like trash?

Small nitpick: the focus is generally not on the him but on the family; which is not considered to be a collection of individuals but some sort of meta-organism which needs and value supersede that of the parts. Otherwise quite correct.

If that is a good way to look at family is left as an exercise to the reader.

This may have been an "Honor killing." There was also one in Canada, I believe, about a month ago. In this latest case, the man had been in the US for about 20 years. I guess he didn't like it because his daughters, who were born here, were "Americanized." They were typical American teenagers and because of that they brought dishonor to him and the family so he killed them.

If he didn't want his children brought up in and "corrupted" by the American culture, then why did he come here in the first place? Why didn't he take his family and move back to Egypt? I just don't understand. If you don't want your kids to be influenced by the culture they are being raised in, then you need to take them and raise them in the culture you want them raised in.

I thought the one in Canada was determined not to be an honor killing, I remember someone bringing up a link or something.

The more recent one isn't totally sure.

Likely came because he could make more money in the US.

Small nitpick: the focus is generally not on the him but on the family; which is not considered to be a collection of individuals but some sort of meta-organism which needs and value supersede that of the parts. Otherwise quite correct.

If that is a good way to look at family is left as an exercise to the reader.
I think this is just an area of debate. I know that what you wrote is what the honor killers CLAIM to be the case.

I, personally, think that's BS. I don't think it's about "family" at all, because they define "family" as being the personal property of the patriarch. It's not actually about family at all when only one member of the family has any rights or human status. At that point it's just a guy and his possessions.

Though I wonder if anybody considered the possibility that maybe he was murdered too.

you forget though that modern science has proven all men to be evil and the case of innocent until proven guilty does not apply

you forget though that modern science has proven all men to be evil and the case of innocent until proven guilty does not apply
Sadly, empirical studies have established that it is statistically more likely that this man murdered his own children than that the whole family was the target of some random attack. That's how shitty domestic violence is.

And yes, I think that sucks. Profoundly. It sucks to live in a world where the "best case" outcome is that a man was killed along with his children, because the alternative is that he slaughtered them out of some twisted idea of preserving his honor.

I think this is just an area of debate. I know that what you wrote is what the honor killers CLAIM to be the case.

I, personally, think that's BS. I don't think it's about "family" at all, because they define "family" as being the personal property of the patriarch. It's not actually about family at all when only one member of the family has any rights or human status. At that point it's just a guy and his possessions.

Well the definition to some Arabic peoples family is defined as the man and everyone else. Not all see it in this light however there are many people out there that this is perfectly fine and normal. It isn't about education either because from my experiences it is a wide range that do this from the farmer to the university educated.

Another observation I have observed and had to go through is that the dowry is paid for the women instead of the other way around in traditional Western society. That to me reinforces the concept that women are property that needs to be paid for before receiving. Again I also want to add the disclaimer that not all Arabic/Muslim peoples behave or believe in this manner.

Well the definition to some Arabic peoples family is defined as the man and everyone else. Not all see it in this light however there are many people out there that this is perfectly fine and normal. It isn't about education either because from my experiences it is a wide range that do this from the farmer to the university educated.

Another observation I have observed and had to go through is that the dowry is paid for the women instead of the other way around in traditional Western society. That to me reinforces the concept that women are property that needs to be paid for before receiving. Again I also want to add the disclaimer that not all Arabic/Muslim peoples behave or believe in this manner.
Yeah, sounds like we're on the same page. And I also want to be very clear that I'm not saying this sort of family structure is something that all Arabs or all Muslims are about, nor is it remotely unique to the Arab world. In the USA it's mostly a Christian phenomenon, as a matter of fact.

My dad thinks that I have been Americanized as well. Nobody likes to be Americanized. I hate to be called an American by my family. We all move to America for one reason though, higher wages and strip clubs.

My dad thinks that I have been Americanized as well. Nobody likes to be Americanized. I hate to be called an American by my family. We all move to America for one reason though, higher wages and strip clubs.
For whatever it's worth, I was born in America to two American parents, and I still don't like being told how American I am. When somebody says, "Wow, you sure are American" it usually means either "You put way too much sugar in everything" or "Good grief you're loud."

My dad thinks that I have been Americanized as well. Nobody likes to be Americanized. I hate to be called an American by my family. We all move to America for one reason though, higher wages and strip clubs.

I think it's funny when people try and move someplace completely different then their home country and expect not to change. Why would you hate to be called American?

I think it's funny when people try and move someplace completely different then their home country and expect not to change. Why would you hate to be called American?

I didnt expect not to change. I was 4 years old! I hate being called an American because of what people associate with the term. Just because I do some stuff like you guys, and I live in the country, I am automaticaly an all consuming fat beast who likes hamburgers instead of Arroz con Gandules! You wouldnt know unless you experience it.

But I do love America, the ridicule is just unbelievable...

I didnt expect not to change. I was 4 years old! I hate being called an American because of what people associate with the term. Just because I do some stuff like you guys I am automaticaly an all consuming fat beast who likes hamburgers instead of Arroz con Gandules!

Falling into the stereotype trap I see. I am an American, not a fat beast and prefer Arroz con Pollo over a burger any day. Being American is a set of ideals I believe over an image of some of our fellow Americans. As for the fat there are plenty of "foreigners" that are fat. Don't believe America has a corner on that market.

I didnt expect not to change. I was 4 years old! I hate being called an American because of what people associate with the term. Just because I do some stuff like you guys, and I live in the country, I am automaticaly an all consuming fat beast who likes hamburgers instead of Arroz con Gandules! You wouldnt know unless you experience it.

But I do love America, the ridicule is just unbelievable...

Reminds me of when I visit them back in Pakistan. I suppose things are different in my case though, none of the prodding is really harmful, just casual joking. For me, it also doesn't really have anything to do with eating a lot of food, I get a let of jokes on my American/English accent (when speaking Urdu).

Honour oh what a glorious thing for some it means to die for you country or to help others, for this particular man for improving his image, so is honour really about image and nothing to do with the judgement of an action?

As for the fat thing well i think Scotland has an issue with that so does England, on a different note "did you know that for a while Glasgow (a city in Scotland) was known as the murder capital of Europe?" in reality it was pretty bad but it's a good place for shopping.

This may have been an "Honor killing." There was also one in Canada, I believe, about a month ago. In this latest case, the man had been in the US for about 20 years. I guess he didn't like it because his daughters, who were born here, were "Americanized." They were typical American teenagers and because of that they brought dishonor to him and the family so he killed them.

If he didn't want his children brought up in and "corrupted" by the American culture, then why did he come here in the first place? Why didn't he take his family and move back to Egypt? I just don't understand. If you don't want your kids to be influenced by the culture they are being raised in, then you need to take them and raise them in the culture you want them raised in.

It's jolly fun to speculate, isn't it?

The brother of two teenage girls who police believe were fatally shot by their father this week pleaded Thursday night for his father to surrender to authorities.

"I never thought this would happen," said Islam Said, 19. "Tell him to turn himself in."
[the brother of the killed girls] Mr. Said also disputed widespread rumors and media reports that his father's religion may have been part of the motive. There has been speculation that the slayings were an honor killing, a practice in some Muslim cultures where a man kills a female family member who is believed to have shamed the family.

"It's not religion," he said. "It's something else. Religion has nothing to do with it."

Mr. Said declined to speak in detail about a possible motive.

Irving police spokesman David Tull said authorities are exploring all possible motives in the slayings, including that they may have been an honor killing. He acknowledged there had been some domestic issues in the family.

"We're well aware of the family dynamics," he said. "Everyone wants to know the motive. The only person that can really tell us is him."
http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/news/city/denton/lewisville/stories/010408dnmetteenskilled.241cec3.html

And it's not like it's the first honour killing in the US. Lots of Christian and non-religious honour killings have happened through the last decades. Depending on how you define honour killings, of course...

My dad thinks that I have been Americanized as well. Nobody likes to be Americanized. I hate to be called an American by my family. We all move to America for one reason though, higher wages and strip clubs.

If you don't want to be "Americanized" why are you living in the US?

For whatever it's worth, I was born in America to two American parents, and I still don't like being told how American I am. When somebody says, "Wow, you sure are American" it usually means either "You put way too much sugar in everything" or "Good grief you're loud."

So, they are calling you a "sweet loudmouth." :D