NationStates Jolt Archive

Yes, but the forbidden zone is a forbidden zone nontheless..

Yet theres no mention of an automatic death sentence for entering this "zone".....And this was in daylight afterall....


Certainly:
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/920548.html
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4155/is_20041102/ai_n12564475
http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/001848.php
http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/03/24/young.detainees/index.html
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_suicide_bombers_in_the_Israeli-Palestinian_conflict
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4188/is_20040324/ai_n11447510

and so on and on...

...none of which refer to a school girls(s) approaching such an area armed with a bomb in a bag, some of which are duplicates and refer to the same incident involving a 14 year old male.


Those are acts that I condemn as well....

So you know admit that Israel occassionally targets civillians?


Systematic torture regime - no. ....

Odd...because seven years ago Israel itself said "yes"
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/637293.stm

And since then its gone on.....with a degree of legality too...
http://www.btselem.org/English/Torture/Index.asp

One must specualte that if thats the official line, what actually happens must be grim indeed.


High Conviction Rate - Yes, we've already discussed how hard it is to 'seem' like you're about to blow up the bomb strapped to your body without actually intending to..

Yet you have provided no evidence, proof or any sort of information to show that the 150,000 Palestinians that have been before these courts since 1990 have all been "suicide bombers". In fact, any reasonable person would realise that such a high total could not actually be reflective of the situation you describe.
Tens of thousands of proceedings take place in the military courts every year, in which thousands of indictments, covering a vast range of issues, are filed: ranging from distinct security-related offenses, to regular criminal offenses, and even traffic violations. In the years 2002-2006 the Military Prosecution filed more than 43,000 indictments to the courts, about a third of which were for security-related offenses (HTA - Hostile Terrorist Activity). Even so, only five percent of the indictments filed during that time charged the defendant with murder (one percent) or attempted murder (four percent).

http://www.yesh-din.org/site/images/BackyardProceedingsSummaryEng.pdf

Could you explain to me why you've been making this rather laughable claim?
Are you actually just trolling?


The 'rare' was used for trials in which the Geneva Conventions were disregarded, and I believe I said: rarely, if ever.

Torture, lack of proper representation,....dear o dear.

. But this doesn't reflect the policy of the IDF as a whole,

The policy of the IDF is to occupy the West Bank and Arab East Jerusalem, as instructed by its Government. An occupation of a resentful and hostile populace must, by its nature, be harsh and violent. When the Israeli government wishes to make life more difficult for the Palestinian inhabitants, thats what it does. What we see in the West Bank is generally the brutal reality of politicians airy phrases, not the individual brutality of men in uniform.

Yet theres no mention of an automatic death sentence for entering this "zone".....And this was in daylight afterall....



...none of which refer to a school girls(s) approaching such an area armed with a bomb in a bag, some of which are duplicates and refer to the same incident involving a 14 year old male.



So you know admit that Israel occassionally targets civillians?



Odd...because seven years ago Israel itself said "yes"
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/637293.stm

And since then its gone on.....with a degree of legality too...
http://www.btselem.org/English/Torture/Index.asp
One must specualte that if thats the official line, what actually happens must be grim indeed.



Yet you have provided no evidence, proof or any sort of information to show that the 150,000 Palestinians that have been before these courts since 1990 have all been "suicide bombers". In fact, any reasonable person would realise that such a high total could not actually be reflective of the situation you describe.


http://www.yesh-din.org/site/images/BackyardProceedingsSummaryEng.pdf

Could you explain to me why you've been making this rather laughable claim?
Are you actually just trolling?



Torture, lack of proper representation,....dear o dear.
No, Israel does not target civilians. Individual soldiers might have, and I don't endorse their actions.
Torture is not used for trials. You don't know what you're talking about. You're mixing in two different things. Again, you're trying to make a confusion of information instead of logically discussing each issue to itself. This is exactly the kind of false reasoning that leads you to the false conclusions you make.
The policy of the IDF is to occupy the West Bank and Arab East Jerusalem, as instructed by its Government. An occupation of a resentful and hostile populace must, by its nature, be harsh and violent. When the Israeli government wishes to make life more difficult for the Palestinian inhabitants, thats what it does. What we see in the West Bank is generally the brutal reality of politicians airy phrases, not the individual brutality of men in uniform.
Again, as I've said before, you are so mixed up with a bunch of things you heard in different places, that you don't even know the truth about the situation. IDF doesn't occupy. There are settlements, some of which IDF's duty is to defend. The Israeli government does what it must to stop innocent civilians from dying within it. It does not make life hard for Palestinians for fun. You are crazy to think that.

No, Israel does not target civilians. Individual soldiers might have, and I don't endorse their actions..


You don't think (for example ) that operations called "Days of Penitence" that lead to widescale destruction and civillian casualties are a bit indicative of a policy....?


Torture is not used for trials. You don't know what you're talking about. .

Actually I do, as do the learned folk whose research I've linked do.


You're mixing in two different things. Again, you're trying to make a confusion of information instead of logically discussing each issue to itself. This is exactly the kind of false reasoning that leads you to the false conclusions you make. .

You stated with regard to military courts High Conviction Rate and remarkably low rate of aqquitall- Yes, we've already discussed how hard it is to 'seem' like you're about to blow up the bomb strapped to your body without actually intending to..

to which I responded with the quote and link as follows -

Tens of thousands of proceedings take place in the military courts every year, in which thousands of indictments, covering a vast range of issues, are filed: ranging from distinct security-related offenses, to regular criminal offenses, and even traffic violations. In the years 2002-2006 the Military Prosecution filed more than 43,000 indictments to the courts, about a third of which were for security-related offenses (HTA - Hostile Terrorist Activity). Even so, only five percent of the indictments filed during that time charged the defendant with murder (one percent) or attempted murder (four percent).
http://www.yesh-din.org/site/images/BackyardProceedingsSummaryEng.pdf

I ask again -

Could you explain to me why you've been making this rather laughable claim?
Are you actually just trolling?


IDF doesn't occupy. There are settlements, some of which IDF's duty is to defend.

As the settlements are in areas outside Israels borders, they could not exist without the IDF occupying the area. Not thinking clearly?


The Israeli government does what it must to stop innocent civilians from dying within it. .

What have settlements outside Israels borders go to do with protecting civillians within Israel?


It does not make life hard for Palestinians for fun. You are crazy to think that.

I did not say - humoursly or otherwise - that they did what they did for "fun".

You'd do far better to address what I do say.

You don't think (for example ) that operations called "Days of Penitence" that lead to widescale destruction and civillian casualties are a bit indicative of a policy....?

So because there was an operation called 'Days of Penitence' therefore Israel is purposefully trying to cause widescale destruction and civillian casualties in the Palestinian side. I like your line of reasoning.

You stated with regard to military courts High Conviction Rate and remarkably low rate of aqquitall-

to which I responded with the quote and link as follows -


http://www.yesh-din.org/site/images/BackyardProceedingsSummaryEng.pdf

I ask again -

Could you explain to me why you've been making this rather laughable claim?
Are you actually just trolling?


So a third of them are for HTA. What's your point?

As the settlements are in areas outside Israels borders, they could not exist without the IDF occupying the area. Not thinking clearly?

haha talking to me about not thinking clearly. I must admit, you are a funny one. You've demonstrated repeatedly that you don't know much about the issue, and this has led to this type of discussion - one that is over the facts. The IDF isn't occupying the area when settlements are put up. Check your story before you invent it.

What have settlements outside Israels borders go to do with protecting civillians within Israel?

Nothing. I don't justify the settlements. I justify the actions Israel takes to defend itself. You are talking blindly.

I did not say - humoursly or otherwise - that they did what they did for "fun".
You'd do far better to address what I do say.
So why, in your opinion, within your imaginary world of the middle east that you've created in your head, does Israel oppress Palestinians so terribly in what is a genocidal apartheid?

What has that to do with the promise of independence ? Might we have a source~?
Your statement was that they expected independence and were unpleasantly surprised that the immigrants were also going to get it, which I was agreeing with. The source is the Balfour Declaration that Jews should be allowed into Palestine "without prejudice to the existing rights of the native community": equality of citizenship between the Arabs and the Jews was what the British proposed and the Arabs rejected. The initial issue was whether "dhimmitude" could be continued, and I see nothing whatsoever morally justified about murdering for the "right" to continue to subjugate others.



You'll find both sides responded 'with murderous violence'.
The question grave-n-idle was about who started it. There can be no dispute that the Palestinians started it. Their attacks on the immigrants in 1920, and the broader attacks on the long-standing Jewish communities in 1929, were not provoked by any preceding violence from the other side.



It was the Irgun, Lehi and Hagganah who founded the Israeli state. Many former members of the Irgun served at cabinet level.
Ben-Gurion founded the Israeli state, and acted against the Irgun by depriving them of armaments.


I refer you again the role of the 1916 rising in the rejection of the 'Home Rule' option and the Sinn Fein elimination of Redmonds party in the 1918 election.
Refer me to these events for what purpose??? My argument has been that the Fenian bombings of 1866 helped to postpone ANY form of Irish liberation ("home rule", "full independence", or whatever) for a half century.







Yet it was not the Palestinians who invaded but the neighbouring states.
You are claiming this was against the Palestinians' wishes???


And so the rest of the planet must be disgusted by the US - whose many Governments disgust did not extend to Apartheid South Africa or Pol Pot, Saddam or Pinochet. One must say that they are at least consistent about the type they lie down with.
I am not talking about the government, I am talking about the people. We did indeed despise South Africa and campaigned to force economic disengagement from that regime. We did indeed despise Pol Pot, Saddam, and Pinochet but were not able to do much about. People like me despise serial killers of all kinds. The Palestinians are worse than the Chechens or the Serbs; only the Tamils and Hutus give them any competition for "most vile people on the planet". For God's sake, in 1948 there were still a lot of headhunter tribes active in Amazonia and Papua, and every single one of them has learned in that time that they had to STOP IT, what is the Palestinians' excuse?

initial issue was whether "dhimmitude" could be continued, ?

And its that idea I want to see the source for.


Ben-Gurion founded the Israeli state, and acted against the Irgun by depriving them of armaments.?

emmm...they actually just had a disagreement over who got what out of the shipment, which led Ben Gurion to 'put them in line' once and for all.


Refer me to these events for what purpose??? My argument has been that the Fenian bombings of 1866 helped to postpone ANY form of Irish liberation ("home rule", "full independence", or whatever) for a half century.
.?

And you're entirely wrong.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Home_Rule_Act_1914#The_struggle_for_Home_Rule
Why is there no mention there?


You are claiming this was against the Palestinians' wishes

I'm saying that they were not some amorphous hive-mind involved in every minute detail of the campaign and should not therefore be constantly punished in hindsight. Its the same concept as not hitting a modern Italian because of Mussolini. Most can grasp it.


I am not talking about the government, I am talking about the people. We did indeed despise South Africa and campaigned to force economic disengagement from that regime.

The US government vetoed sanctions against SA for years...And Ian Smiths Rhodesia, if I recall correctly. I would have thought it a logical thing to do, to check if there was truth to my statement before replying.


We did indeed despise Pol Pot,

The US supplied him indirectly, supporting him against the Vietnamese backed alternative Cambodian government. They voted that the Khmer Rouge be the represenative of Cambodia at the UN during this period. (Carter/Reagan) I suggest you look it up.


Saddam,

...supported his first coup attempt. Ceased aiding the Kurds against him in 1976, and had Turkey close the border to them, allowing Saddam to kill thousands (Kissinger, who made a famous statement in regard to the deed). Supported him during his war on Iran. (Reagan) Had he done what he was told a bit more readily, I'd say he'd still be there now.

I would thought this all common knowledge


and Pinochet but were not able to do much about.

Apart from aid Pinochets coup (kissinger/Nixon) and provide him with the 'cloak of respectability' for all of his reign.


People like me despise serial killers of all kinds. The Palestinians are worse than the Chechens or the Serbs; only the Tamils and Hutus give them any competition for "most vile people on the planet". For God's sake, in 1948 there were still a lot of headhunter tribes active in Amazonia and Papua, and every single one of them has learned in that time that they had to STOP IT, what is the Palestinians' excuse?

Not that you're bigoted that way or anything.....

So because there was an operation called 'Days of Penitence' therefore Israel is purposefully trying to cause widescale destruction and civillian casualties in the Palestinian side.?

No, there are any number of operations which do so. They often have names which indicate wrath, punishment and the like. Its a bit co-incidental.



So a third of them are for HTA. What's your point?.?


Evasion on your part, so we'll try again. Try giving an answer this time.

You stated with regard to military courts High Conviction Rate and remarkably low rate of aqquitall-

Yes, we've already discussed how hard it is to 'seem' like you're about to blow up the bomb strapped to your body without actually intending to..

to which I responded with the quote and link as follows -

Tens of thousands of proceedings take place in the military courts every year, in which thousands of indictments, covering a vast range of issues, are filed: ranging from distinct security-related offenses, to regular criminal offenses, and even traffic violations. In the years 2002-2006 the Military Prosecution filed more than 43,000 indictments to the courts, about a third of which were for security-related offenses (HTA - Hostile Terrorist Activity). Even so, only five percent of the indictments filed during that time charged the defendant with murder (one percent) or attempted murder (four percent).

http://www.yesh-din.org/site/images/BackyardProceedingsSummaryEng.pdf

I ask again -
Could you explain to me why you've been making this rather laughable claim?
Are you actually just trolling?


. The IDF isn't occupying the area when settlements are put up. Check your story before you invent it.

Then why is the West Bank and Arab East Jerusalem officially known (from the Un to the US) as the occupied territories? Or are you going to try for semantic dodges.....

So why, in your opinion, within your imaginary world of the middle east that you've created in your head, does Israel oppress Palestinians so terribly in what is a genocidal apartheid?

I never referred to anything as genocidal.

As regards Israels intentions, I quote the following -

The West’s obsession with Hamas’s ascendancy is a result of Western refusal to see Israel’s age-old policy for what it is: the aim has always been to seize the maximum amount of land while inheriting a minimum number of Palestinians
http://cosmos.ucc.ie/cs1064/jabowen/IPSC/articles/pdfCacheOfArticle0072581.pdf

No, there are any number of operations which do so. They often have names which indicate wrath, punishment and the like. Its a bit co-incidental.

haha so you derive from the names of the operations, the intention of Israel. Nice. With a capital N.




Evasion on your part, so we'll try again. Try giving an answer this time.

You stated with regard to military courts High Conviction Rate and remarkably low rate of aqquitall-


to which I responded with the quote and link as follows -



http://www.yesh-din.org/site/images/BackyardProceedingsSummaryEng.pdf

I ask again -
Could you explain to me why you've been making this rather laughable claim?
Are you actually just trolling?

And as I responded to, that it says that a third of them are HTA, and it fails to mention what the other two thirds are composed of (which makes the source kind of doubtfull in its neutrality).

Then why is the West Bank and Arab East Jerusalem officially known (from the Un to the US) as the occupied territories? Or are you going to try for semantic dodges.....

haha you again with names. I don't think they should be called the occupied territories. You anti-Israel people use that term to imply that Israel is 'oppressing' the Palestinians.

I never referred to anything as genocidal.

As regards Israels intentions, I quote the following -


http://cosmos.ucc.ie/cs1064/jabowen/IPSC/articles/pdfCacheOfArticle0072581.pdf

haha right that makes tons of sense, because Israel is running out of land so quickly, and it doesn't still have the entire negev which is very scarcely populated. Also, they are dying for the lands around Jerusalem right, they love getting extra desert.
Some crazy fundamentalists think they need to get as much land for Israel as they can and that it is their job to do it. You are right there. But these harm Israel's image, and are being stopped by most of the government.

Sarcasm, my friend, sarcasm. My point was that some jackass coming in and saying these thread turn into Israel-supporters closing their eyes to truths is a bit dishonest as the people you are arguing against have shown the same flaw you've exhibited in this thread.

Well, since you've mentioned me with such polite reverence I'd like to point out that the people who actually believe Israel is The Fifth Reich are in a comparative minority in at least NSG. Not to mention de facto United States policy so far favors the Israeli Blanket Apologists more than the Zioniphobes. They're still out there and I don't see why I have to take special exceptions to mention they exist, when we have such outstanding examples like AP/EA.

For the record, I have family from Israel and I visit them frequently and we always get into this kind of discussion. The idea that even Israelis, much less Jews (you know, three opinions two Jews and all that), are at some kind of cohesive agreement about the Israel-Palestine situation is stupid on a level that almost deserves violent retribution (i.e. you need to be smacked upside the head until some common sense can squeeze its way in between all that stupidity).

On the other hand, people seem readily comfortable to assume every single Palestinian is a drone unit that can link to the Hamas Hivemind.

The only thing I admit to not getting about these debates is how attacking non-combatants is defended on both sides. There are some serious issues with the Israeli government, as it currently is, but that in no way justifies blowing up a shopping mall. Justifying it as a form of frustration is just silly (notice I use justify and not explain); I get frustrated reading dumb statements those kinds of dumb statements and it is doubtful that any factual data, reasoned argument or thorough explanation will ever sway such a devotees opinion on the matter if they're at that state, it doesn't mean it is now morally acceptable for me to kill the expresser (or, rather, random people associated with the expresser) of said nonsensical opinion.

Anyone who justifies civilian targets is a fruitcake to begin with, and should not be accepted as a representative as whole. Unfortunately they make convenient scapegoats and "evidence" for individuals in power.

I think once people get over the idea of "homelands" ordained by god maybe we can start making progress.

That would certainly be a start

So you ask the Jews to drop Judaism?
If that's what it takes, sure

Oops, you just can't stop making mistakes huh? Both Palestinian parties have militias.
I'm sure one of these days, you'll get a post right.


Once again, you fail to respond to the actual post.

I'm sure you think you're all kinds of clever, for dodging posts, but, frankly, it makes me think you a little dull.

Still - it's worth posting in the thread even if you never give a proper response, because propaganda is worth opposing.

On topic - a 'militia' isn't necessarily the same as a 'military'. Palestine has no military, regardless of whther or not somje guys with guns like to declare for factions.

Your comment makes as much sense as suggesting that Wimbledon supporters are the sum and substance the British Army.

Many of the Palestinians getting arrested are not terrorists, you are absolutly right.. however they are "illegal aliens" as Americans like to call it. if you want a harse comparsion - the Mexican illegal aliens are to the Americans what the illegal Palestinians are to the Israelis. And arent the Americans building a huge wall around that border?

Many of the Palestinians getting arrested are not terrorists, you are absolutly right.. however they are "illegal aliens" as Americans like to call it. if you want a harse comparsion - the Mexican illegal aliens are to the Americans what the illegal Palestinians are to the Israelis. And arent the Americans building a huge wall around that border?How can one be an illegal alien in one's original homeland?

haha so you derive from the names of the operations, the intention of Israel. Nice. With a capital N..

You are misrepresenting what I said. I pointed to the results of the raids, which seem to have a direct link with their titles.



And as I responded to, that it says that a third of them are HTA, and it fails to mention what the other two thirds are composed of (which makes the source kind of doubtfull in its neutrality)...

It mentions in that very quote how many charges are related to "terrorist offences". You are cherry picking and evading the question, so we'll try a third time. Try to read the whole section quoted, pay attention to the bold I've now placed, and relate it to your statement which I will kindly place below once more, then read the question again.

You stated with regard to military courts High Conviction Rate and remarkably low rate of aqquital you stated -

Yes, we've already discussed how hard it is to 'seem' like you're about to blow up the bomb strapped to your body without actually intending to..

to which I replied with the link and quote as follows

Tens of thousands of proceedings take place in the military courts every year, in which thousands of indictments, covering a vast range of issues, are filed: ranging from distinct security-related offenses, to regular criminal offenses, and even traffic violations. In the years 2002-2006 the Military Prosecution filed more than 43,000 indictments to the courts, about a third of which were for security-related offenses (HTA - Hostile Terrorist Activity). Even so, only five percent of the indictments filed during that time charged the defendant with murder (one percent) or attempted murder (four percent).
http://www.yesh-din.org/site/images/BackyardProceedingsSummaryEng.pdf

I ask again -
Could you explain to me why you've been making this rather laughable claim?
Are you actually just trolling?




haha you again with names. I don't think they should be called the occupied territories.

Immatterial and irrelevant. Why is their official international title the "occupied territories" if in fact they are not occupied as you state?


You anti-Israel people use that term to imply that Israel is 'oppressing' the Palestinians.

Not at all. We show that the Palestinians are being oppressed by pointing out the facts relating to their treatment, such as settler only areas, settlements, the two tier system of justice, the death toll, land seizures, torture, beatings, checkpoints and the like.....


But these harm Israel's image, and are being stopped by most of the government.

Then why is the Government building and expanding more settlements?

You are misrepresenting what I said. I pointed to the results of the raids, which seem to have a direct link with their titles.




It mentions in that very quote how many charges are related to "terrorist offences". You are cherry picking and evading the question, so we'll try a third time. Try to read the whole section quoted, pay attention to the bold I've now placed, and relate it to your statement which I will kindly place below once more, then read the question again.

You stated with regard to military courts High Conviction Rate and remarkably low rate of aqquital you stated -



to which I replied with the link and quote as follows


http://www.yesh-din.org/site/images/BackyardProceedingsSummaryEng.pdf

I ask again -
Could you explain to me why you've been making this rather laughable claim?
Are you actually just trolling?





Immatterial and irrelevant. Why is their official international title the "occupied territories" if in fact they are not occupied as you state?



Not at all. We show that the Palestinians are being oppressed by pointing out the facts relating to their treatment, such as settler only areas, settlements, the two tier system of justice, the death toll, land seizures, torture, beatings, checkpoints and the like.....



Then why is the Government building and expanding more settlements?

Ok, so 33% are HTA. 1% are murder, and 4% are attempted murder. So what? what's your point? You can try to post it a fifth time if you'd like, it doesn't change from time to time. What's there is there. I still hold to my statement entirely. It's very hard to be charged with terrorism without actually being a terrorist.
So you decided that the 'international title' is 'OT' so therefore Israel must be occupying them. Nice. Again.
It is not the government that's expanding the settlements, as we've already covered, it's individuals.

Ok, so 33% are HTA. 1% are murder, and 4% are attempted murder. So what? what's your point?
.

If thats the case then what was behind your statements as follows?
The only time military courts will be used are when there are attempted suicide attacks on Israelis and that is rarely used

Yes, we've already discussed how hard it is to 'seem' like you're about to blow up the bomb strapped to your body without actually intending to..

Clearly (a) they are used for far more than "attempted suicide attacks" on Israelis and (b) they are commonly used. What I fail to understand is why you made the statements you did.



So you decided that the 'international title' is 'OT' so therefore Israel must be occupying them. .

No, I've shown that Israel is occupying them, and I'vew shown the International community (including Israels ally) considers them to be occupying them. What I want to know is what grounds you have for saying they are not.


It is not the government that's expanding the settlements, as we've already covered, it's individuals.

And again, I can't understand how some one can, in any serious manner, make that statement.

Israel has approved the construction of a new settlement in the occupied West Bank, Israeli officials have said.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6210721.stm

Israel plans to build 740 new homes in settlements in occupied East Jerusalem, a minister said, despite its commitment to freeze all settlement activity.
Rafi Eitan, minister for Jerusalem affairs, said Israel had never promised to stop building within Jerusalem and had a duty to house its citizens.

It is budgeting to build 500 new homes in Har Homa and 240 in Maaleh Adumim.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7158072.stm

The Israeli government announced plans last month to build 300 new apartments at the Har Homa development in occupied East Jerusalem, drawing a furious diplomatic response from the Palestinians.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7172253.stm

Your comments?

If thats the case then what was behind your statements as follows?




Clearly (a) they are used for far more than "attempted suicide attacks" on Israelis and (b) they are commonly used. What I fail to understand is why you made the statements you did.



No, I've shown that Israel is occupying them, and I'vew shown the International community (including Israels ally) considers them to be occupying them. What I want to know is what grounds you have for saying they are not.



And again, I can't understand how some one can, in any serious manner, make that statement.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6210721.stm


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7158072.stm


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7172253.stm

Your comments?

East Jerusalem is a different matter. For your West Bank one, I had not heard of Maskiot before. I don't endorse this, and apparently, neither does the Israeli government:
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3354319,00.html
Yes, millitary courts are used. Rarely, though, have the Geneva Convention's rulings been broken. That's what I meant by the statements. The high percentage of conviction is what I mean by: "Yes, we've already discussed how hard it is to 'seem' like you're about to blow up the bomb strapped to your body without actually intending to.. "
Yes, I had not known that the military courts were used for regular offences at times and appologize. I take that statement back, as I had heard that Palestine has its own courts for such offenses in the news. I interpreted that to mean that all crimes are adressed in those courts, but now learn that there are certain crimes (probably in areas of the West Bank where there isn't a Palestinian court nerarby) that are brought to trial by the IDF. Although it is only a small percentage of trials, apparently they are used. But I'm completely confident that in these trials, nothing even close to the breaking of Geneva Convention rules occurs.

East Jerusalem is a different matter.

emmm...no it isn't.

[QUOTE=Intelligenstan] For your West Bank one, I had not heard of Maskiot before. I don't endorse this, and apparently, neither does the Israeli government:
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3354319,00.html

I hadn't realised that that had been iced. My thanks. However it would seem that it hasn't been entirely abandoned -
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/809723.html

Heres another more concrete one to make up for it -
The Israeli government says it plans to build 700 new homes in two settlement blocs in the occupied West Bank.
Adverts published in Israeli newspapers invite bids for work in Maale Adumim just outside east Jerusalem and Beitar Illit to the south, near Bethlehem.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5312084.stm

Its also rather disengenous to suggest that Israel can't control the settlers expanding settlements "illegally" when it can manage to control the movements of the far larger Palestinian population.


....... I take that statement back,....

Well done.


But I'm completely confident that in these trials, nothing even close to the breaking of Geneva Convention rules occurs.

Evidence obtained by torture is admissible in certain circumstances. Therefore......

[QUOTE=Intelligenstan;13365685]East Jerusalem is a different matter.

emmm...no it isn't.



I hadn't realised that that had been iced. My thanks. However it would seem that it hasn't been entirely abandoned -
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/809723.html

Heres another more concrete one to make up for it -

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5312084.stm

Its also rather disengenous to suggest that Israel can't control the settlers expanding settlements "illegally" when it can manage to control the movements of the far larger Palestinian population.



Well done.



Evidence obtained by torture is admissible in certain circumstances. Therefore......

Maale Adumim and Beitar Illit are well developed Israeli cities. Adding buildings there is not building a settlement in the West Bank.
No, Israel really can't control these crazy people entirely. It tries though.

The incredibly reactionary argument against Palestinian national resistance to Zionism is usually based on one of the following:
1) the Judeo-Christian-based belief that two "wrongs" do not make a "right."
2) Naive belief in occupier-Zionist human rights.
Both have no place in reality. It is quite easy to "condemn" the actions of persecuted Palestinians against the Zionist imperialist machine, isn't it? While the Zionist use any violent and brutal method they want, the Palestinians must endlessly seek the liberation of their people, unless of course it hurts someone. Then of course, the resistance must be dropped immediately as "unjust." Ridiculous drivel.

While the Zionist use any violent and brutal method they want,

Who says that?

unless of course it hurts someone.

That is not the standard, as you know.

No, Israel really can't control these crazy people entirely. It tries though.
Not as hard as it tries with the Palestinians. A bullet between the settlers eyes would control them in a hurry, according to Intelligenstan's logic.

It tries though.Evidence?

Not as hard as it tries with the Palestinians. A bullet between the settlers eyes would control them in a hurry, according to Intelligenstan's logic.

That's about the only way they'd willing leaver their own colonies.

Not as hard as it tries with the Palestinians. A bullet between the settlers eyes would control them in a hurry, according to Intelligenstan's logic.

Remember when that group of Israeli settlers threw a protest and refused to leave? I don't recall the IDF shooting them either, which tends to be their SOP when dealing with Palestinian unrest.

Remember when that group of Israeli settlers threw a protest and refused to leave? I don't recall the IDF shooting them either, which tends to be their SOP when dealing with Palestinian unrest.

Well, even the ones that were actually forced to leave the former settlements, most didn't relocate to Israel proper, as in Tel Aviv or wherever, even though they were given excellent housing incentives in a completely non-dangerous area.

Instead these former settler opted to use their money with others to build more settlements on the less controversial West Bank areas, they literally bulldozed the grounds and put a prefab town on top of it, complete with a Synagogue and all, even though being settlers makes them targets in considerable danger. When given the opportunity otherwise, why do you think these people chose to live in settlements voluntarily many times? Do you think it might be because they have some of the neocolonialist 'Greater Israel' ideology in their heads?

Do you think it might be because they have some of the neocolonialist 'Greater Israel' ideology in their heads?Yeah, some kind of Israel-über-alles thing.

Maale Adumim and Beitar Illit are well developed Israeli cities. Adding buildings there is not building a settlement in the West Bank. .

They are not Israeli cities, they are settlements.

[
No, Israel really can't control these crazy people entirely. It tries though.

It makes little or no effort.

Virtually not a week goes by without a new revelation, each more sensational and revolting than the previous one, about the building spree in West Bank settlements, in blatant violation of the law and in complete contradiction to official government policy. All this is happening with the knowledge of the defense officials responsible for enforcing the law in the territories, and with cooperation - by commission or omission - from the political echelon
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/807444.html

Quote:
Originally Posted by Intelligenstan

Maale Adumim and Beitar Illit are well developed Israeli cities. Adding buildings there is not building a settlement in the West Bank. .

Nodinia: They are not Israeli cities, they are settlements.

I actually agree with Nodinia here. If Israel wants to retain any places on the other side of the Green Line, it must give compensatory land (of comparable value) elsewhere, and any such revision of the borders cannot leave the Palestinian state chopped up into discontiguous fragments where you cannot from one piece to another except through Israeli checkpoints (I will blame the Palestinians for a lot of things, but cannot blame them for never wanting to see an Israeli checkpoint ever again). Maale Adumim is particularly problematic in this regard since it sticks into the West Bank deeply.

.

I actually agree with Nodinia here. If Israel wants to retain any places on the other side of the Green Line, it must give compensatory land (of comparable value) elsewhere, and any such revision of the borders cannot leave the Palestinian state chopped up into discontiguous fragments where you cannot from one piece to another except through Israeli checkpoints (I will blame the Palestinians for a lot of things, but cannot blame them for never wanting to see an Israeli checkpoint ever again). Maale Adumim is particularly problematic in this regard since it sticks into the West Bank deeply.

Indeed. Those who want to see a single state solution often remark that a fragmenary Palestinian state will be unworkable, and in essence be the creation of "bantustans". While I reject the idea of a single state (they'd kill each other) they do make a valid point there nevertheless.

The problem is in Jerusalem. Which one'll get it?

The problem is in Jerusalem. Which one'll get it?

It'll have to be half and half with no joint authority over residential areas.

The problem is in Jerusalem. Which one'll get it?And above all: who gets the West Bank?