NationStates Jolt Archive

So, what if the United Kingdom broke apart?

It's pretty unlikely, since the Union has good approval ratings at the moment (I tried to find some statistics but couldn't come up with the right search terms).

I think that the remaining constituent countries would become much keener on the European Union, relying on that for the strength the United Kingdom gives now.

Well, maybe we would call it the DK instead of the UK?

:headbang:

So, what if the United Kingdom broke apart?

It's pretty unlikely, since the Union has good approval ratings at the moment (I tried to find some statistics but couldn't come up with the right search terms).

I think that the remaining constituent countries would become much keener on the European Union, relying on that for the strength the United Kingdom gives now.

Seeing as the Irish have just called time on a guerrila war against their forced presence in the union to get out peacefully and the Scots in all polls wanting independence, what 'approval' ratings are you talking about?

as in physically broke apart and drifted away from the other pieces?

and since when has breaking up the union been popular?

Seeing as the Irish have just called time on a guerrila war against their forced presence in the union to get out peacefully and the Scots in all polls wanting independence, what 'approval' ratings are you talking about?

1) Northern Island wants out of the union :confused:
2) Northern Island is forced to be in the union :confused:
3) Scots want independence now :confused:

clearly I have a very big day planned

Seeing as the Irish have just called time on a guerrila war against their forced presence in the union to get out peacefully and the Scots in all polls wanting independence, what 'approval' ratings are you talking about?
There's an inaccurate, generalised statement if I've ever seen one.

1) Northern Island wants out of the union :confused:
2) Northern Island is forced to be in the union :confused:
3) Scots want independence now :confused:

clearly I have a very big day planned

It's Northern Ireland foo'.

And, as far as I know, "no" on all three counts.

It's Northern Ireland foo'.

well its on an island North of my position :p

And, as far as I know, "no" on all three counts.

do you mean I was lied to?!

Seeing as the Irish have just called time on a guerrila war against their forced presence in the union to get out peacefully
I don't understand your sentence, but I would like to point out that Ireland formed a republic 71 years ago. It was probably in the news.

Scots in all polls wanting independence
That's not what I heard.

what 'approval' ratings are you talking about?
There was a survey done a fews months or so ago. It's not a big deal, just a digression from the topic.

The 'Divided Kingdom' just doesn't have the same oomph. :p

EDIT:

"Many nationalists, including Alex Salmond, personally support the retention of the current Monarch - who herself is half-Scottish, through her mother, Elizabeth Bowes-Lyon - with Scotland becoming a Commonwealth Realm, similar to Canada or Australia, should independence occur." - wikipedia

I don't understand your sentence, but I would like to point out that Ireland formed a republic 87 years ago. It was probably in the news.

Nah, they formed a Dominion 86 years ago, and a republic 71 years ago.

That's if you ignore the Irish Republic that existed as a purely revolutionary "state" and was succeeded by the Irish Free State.

The 'Divided Kingdom' just doesn't have the same oomph. :p

Nah, they formed a Dominion 86 years ago, and a republic 71 years ago.

That's what I get for not reading properly.

The 'Divided Kingdom' just doesn't have the same oomph. :p

The Beer and Pie Kingdoms of Britannia?

bordered closely be the treasonous state of cake and ale! :mad:

Doesn't really matter does it?

It's sort of already heading the way of the auld Empire.

The Beer and Pie Kingdoms of Britannia?

bordered closely be the treasonous state of cake and ale! :mad:

I like the way you think. :)

1) Northern Island wants out of the union :confused:
2) Northern Island is forced to be in the union :confused:
3) Scots want independence now :confused:

clearly I have a very big day planned

1: The native population do
2: Operation Banner, 15,000 British soldiers over 30 years and all that?!?
3: They voted for devolution a few years ago and all polls show a majority wanting out of the Union.

The point I'm making is that demographics will have NI out of the union in 10 years and it appears Scotland will take independence if offered.

1: The native population do
2: Operation Banner, 15,000 British soldiers over 30 years and all that?!?
3: They voted for devolution a few years ago and all polls show a majority wanting out of the Union.

The point I'm making is that demographics will have NI out of the union in 10 years and it appears Scotland will take independence if offered.Sources to back up your claims?

Sources to back up your claims?

I need to source the IRA's campaign against British rule and Scottish devolution? :rolleyes:

Most recent opinion poll on Scottish independence http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,,1937976,00.html

I need to source the IRA's campaign against British rule
All northen irish people are in the IRA?

and Scottish devolution?
The states of America like having a certain amount of independence from the federal government (more than the devolved parliaments in the UK). Does that mean they want separate countries too?

Most recent opinion poll on Scottish independence http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,,1937976,00.html

TBH, I don't think these polls are worth much, they seem to vary a hell of a lot.

I'm not exactly sure how it works so I don't know.

So? it breaks apart and then...what do you want to know? everything or political things, incidently did you know the national dish for the Welsh is Welsh Rarebit( a sort of cheese on toast and egg, it's really nice)

So? it breaks apart and then...what do you want to know?

I was inviting people to speculate about a hypothetical scenario. I've had little success.

I need to source the IRA's campaign against British rule and Scottish devolution? :rolleyes:You may need to source polls in Northern Ireland demanding to be released from the Union. Unless you can provide those. The IRA isn't necessarily representative of Northern Ireland, and while they may want NI out of the UK, they aren't representative of Northern Ireland itself.

Most recent opinion poll on Scottish independence http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,,1937976,00.htmlIndependence should require a firm 2/3rds majority. 51% isn't really enough.

All northen irish people are in the IRA?
Didn't you know old chum. It's a requirement these days my boy.
*puffs on pipe*

All northen irish people are in the IRA?

No, but its clear that there was a sustained, violent reaction to the imposition of British rule in Ireland.



The states of America like having a certain amount of independence from the federal government (more than the devolved parliaments in the UK). Does that mean they want separate countries too?

They got devolution and opinion polls show the majority want to take it further into full independance.


All I am saying is that two out of the four parts of the Union are not exactly solid members, unlike what the OP tried to infer.

All I am saying is that two out of the four parts of the Union are not exactly solid members, unlike what the OP tried to infer.
Well, that was an aside anyway, assessing the likelihood wasn't the point of the thread. Also, not to be a "nazi" but I think you mean "imply", not "infer".

Well, that was an aside anyway, assessing the likelihood wasn't the point of the thread. .

It was.

But they will change their flag and carry on as normal.

No, but its clear that there was a sustained, violent reaction to the imposition of British rule in Ireland.
Indeed. By a minority of the population. Just because some one runs about blowing things up and shooting at other things doesn't necessarily mean that they have support of the rest of the population. As far as I was aware, a large proportion of the Northern Irish population wasn't in favour of the IRA. Especially if one includes the Loyalist paramilitary groups, who were kind of working to the opposite.

It was.

:confused: This is my thread! I know what it's about...

So, what if the United Kingdom broke apart?

...

I think that the remaining constituent countries would become much keener on the European Union, relying on that for the strength the United Kingdom gives now.

It starts with me asking a "what if" question. I then made a guess about it's likelihood of actually happening (snipped). And then I made a speculation to get the ball rolling, hoping others would have some interesting insight that I hadn't thought of.

Indeed. By a minority of the population. Just because some one runs about blowing things up and shooting at other things doesn't necessarily mean that they have support of the rest of the population. As far as I was aware, a large proportion of the Northern Irish population wasn't in favour of the IRA. Especially if one includes the Loyalist paramilitary groups, who were kind of working to the opposite.

The majority of the indigenous Irish want an end to British rule.

But would you consider the north of Ireland as a long term part of the Union with 48.5% of the population of a Nationalist background and growing fast? The GFA copperfastened the idea that the day 50.01% vote for a united Ireland, they get it.

Scotland now has a majority who want independence. The Union is within 15 years of ending and life will be the exact same for the English and Welsh.

:confused: This is my thread! I know what it's about...



It starts with me asking a "what if" question. I then made a guess about it's likelihood of actually happening (snipped). And then I made a speculation to get the ball rolling, hoping others would have some interesting insight that I hadn't thought of.

I think the Baker did it this time.

Back to reality i think that Scotland would be okay for a while, England might struggle a bit but become okay eventually, Wales might struggle, Northern Ireland could lapse back into violence.
(oh by the way okay=a general assumption that things would carry on as normal, struggle=suffer from more income deprivation.)
But to be honest i have no idea.

The majority of the indigenous Irish want an end to British rule.
Where do you draw the line for "indigenous Irish"?

Where do you draw the line for "indigenous Irish"?

those who arent descended from illegal settlers

1: The native population do

How do you define "native population"? Anybody born there? It's a ridiculous concept.

2: Operation Banner, 15,000 British soldiers over 30 years and all that?!?

Hardly the piopulation being coerced into the Union. The majority of the population has maintained a wish to remain in the Union consistently since the creation of Northern Ireland. A military presence does not automatically mean coercion.

The point I'm making is that demographics will have NI out of the union in 10 years and it appears Scotland will take independence if offered.
What demographics are these?

I do hope you're not falling into the old trap of assuming that all Catholics are nationalist, and all Protestants are unionist?

You may need to source polls in Northern Ireland demanding to be released from the Union. Unless you can provide those. The IRA isn't necessarily representative of Northern Ireland, and while they may want NI out of the UK, they aren't representative of Northern Ireland itself.

With only 23% of the population wanting to join the Republic (http://www.ark.ac.uk/nilt/2006/Political_Attitudes/FUTURENI.html) that may be difficult for him to do.

No, but its clear that there was a sustained, violent reaction to the imposition of British rule in Ireland.

From a minority of the population.

those who arent descended from illegal settlers

You would probably find it very difficult to find anybody who meets that (false) description.

those who arent descended from illegal settlersPity the Celts wiped them all out then, huh?

With only 23% of the population wanting to join the Republic (http://www.ark.ac.uk/nilt/2006/Political_Attitudes/FUTURENI.html) that may be difficult for him to do.

a British govt survey boycotted by Republicans!!

those who arent descended from illegal settlers
So you're happy to ignore a large amount of the population, then? What do want to do with them, herd them all across the Irish Sea? It seems a bit ridiculous to ignore people who have been living in Ireland for all of their lives, just because you view their ancestors as illegal settlers. The fact that they've been their all their lives kind of allows them to have a say in the future of Northen Ireland.

those who arent descended from illegal settlers

So would this nationalist rant make you from Northern/Southern Ireland? Please, please tell me you're not an American (or Canadian, Australian, Argentinian etc) with Irish ancestors.

So you're happy to ignore a large amount of the population, then? What do want to do with them, herd them all across the Irish Sea? It seems a bit ridiculous to ignore people who have been living in Ireland for all of their lives, just because you view their ancestors as illegal settlers. The fact that they've been their all their lives kind of allows them to have a say in the future of Northen Ireland.

did the British settlers in Rhodesia/Malaysia/India etc get such a say in the post colonial independent nation they were 'running'? An entire corner cut for themselves to mis-rule?

why should Ireland be any different? I'm not ignoring them, but after Britain left Ireland they should have been given the choice to help create a new nation or leave. Like every ohter comparable situation in the world.

a British govt survey boycotted by Republicans!!

Well, no, but nice try at the "I don't like the statistics so I'll drop some bullshit about the origins" line.

It's a join research body created by QUB and the University of Ulster.

The queen would have to be split into four separate pieces.

The queen would have to be split into four separate pieces.Don't be silly. Canada and Australia deserve a share as well.

So would this nationalist rant make you from Northern/Southern Ireland? Please, please tell me you're not an American (or Canadian, Australian, Argentinian etc) with Irish ancestors.

rant?

Yes, I am Irish

rant?

Yes, I am Irish
Northern or Southern, if I may ask?

Northern or Southern, if I may ask?

He's from the Republic, but I fail to see how his location affects his opinions. They're pretty clear and obvious without that point of information.

Northern or Southern, if I may ask?

somewhere around the middle.

He's from the Republic

Then his opinion on the future of NI counts around 100% less than that of any individual from the North, "indigenous" or not.

Then his opinion on the future of NI counts around 100% less than that of any individual from the North, "indigenous" or not.

I fail to see how.

By your logic the government sitting in Westminster should have zero say in the future of Northern Ireland and as such, should have had zero say in it's rule up until now.

The SR is entitled to his opinion on this subject, as are you.

He's from the Republic, but I fail to see how his location affects his opinions. They're pretty clear and obvious without that point of information.
Yeah, as it is also admittedly none of my business.

somewhere around the middle.

*singsong voice*
Jokers to the left of me clowns to the right, and here i am stuck in the middle with you.

I fail to see how.

Well, I think it's a fairly simple concept.

By your logic the government sitting in Westminster should have zero say in the future of Northern Ireland and as such, should have had zero say in it's rule up until now.

Yup that seems about right to me. The only people who should have a say on the future constitutional status of NI are the people of NI itself.

The SR is entitled to his opinion on this subject, as are you.

I don't deny that he's entitled to his opinion, my point is that his opinion carries no weight.

I fail to see how.

By your logic the government sitting in Westminster should have zero say in the future of Northern Ireland and as such, should have had zero say in it's rule up until now.

The SR is entitled to his opinion on this subject, as are you.

Exactly, I had hoped the days of the Englishman telling us that what happens in their banthusan is none of our business was over.

Yup that seems about right to me. The only people who should have a say on the future constitutional status of NI are the people of NI itself.


So take your soldiers and state apparatus propping up the Unionist regieme, and get the fuck out and leave them to it!?!

Exactly, I had hoped the days of the Englishman telling us that what happens in their banthusan is none of our business was over.

Well, at this very moment in time I'm sitting in my house in Belfast, the one I've lived in for 16 years and which is about a mile from the house I lived in for 5 years prior to that, which in turn is about three miles from the hospital in which I was born.

The opinions of the English carry as much weight with me as yours do.

So take your soldiers and state apparatus propping up the Unionist regieme, and get the fuck out and leave them to it!?!

Oops.

Well, you know what they say about assumptions...

Well, I think it's a fairly simple concept.

That your location disbars you from holding an opinion on a subject?

Hi. Welcome to the 21st century. We allow people to hold opinions here.


Yup that seems about right to me. The only people who should have a say on the future constitutional status of NI are the people of NI itself.
Yet.... they're still ruled from Westminster. So you want an independent state of Northern Ireland?



I don't deny that he's entitled to his opinion, my point is that his opinion carries no weight.

I believe a person's intellect and education have an effect on their ability to hold a valid opinion. I may be alone in that.

Oops.

Well, you know what they say about assumptions...

fair point, but it doenst change my substantive point. the union is on its last legs and the only issue is whether Scotland or the north of Ireland get their vote first.

That your location disbars you from holding an opinion on a subject?

Hi. Welcome to the 21st century. We allow people to hold opinions here.

You seem fairly incapable of grasping the concept that while all may hold opinions on whatever they want, for example I'm not a massive fan of the Republic's ban on abortion, the opinions of some carry more weight than others.

That's why a referendum on the future of NI would most likely, and should, be held only in NI.

Yet.... they're still ruled from Westminster. So you want an independent state of Northern Ireland?

Well, no, there's this thing called the Northern Ireland Assembly. You may have heard of it?

I believe a person's intellect and education havean effect on their ability to hold a valid opinion. I may be alone in that.

And, as I said, I agree with that; whether or not the opinion matters is an entirely different matter.

Yet.... they're still ruled from Westminster. So you want an independent state of Northern Ireland?
.

NO NO NO

The last time the Unionists were given carte blanche to run northern Ireland they blasted people off the streets who were marching because they were being deprived of the right to vote on the basis of their religion and turned it into an economic and social mess it still hasnt recovered from.

fair point, but it doenst change my substantive point. the union is on its last legs and the only issue is whether Scotland or the north of Ireland get their vote first.

Not that either would be overly likely to vote for independence.

You seem fairly incapable of grasping the concept that while all may hold opinions on whatever they want, for example I'm not a massive fan of the Republic's ban on abortion, the opinions of some carry more weight than others.

So the opinions of those located on one side or another of a line on a map carry more weight in your mind, than those that are educated on the subject.

Oh my.

That's why a referendum on the future of NI would most likely, and should, be held only in NI.
When have I said it shouldn't? And how does that make The SR's opinion any less valid?


Well, no, there's this thing called the Northern Ireland Assembly. You may have heard of it?
Yes. It's a glorified county council.


And, as I said, I agree with that; whether or not the opinion matters is an entirely different matter.
Every opinion matters. Translate it into having political weight I think is what you mean.

Not that either would be overly likely to vote for independence.

Well thats where we disagree. Both are probable within the next 10 years. With Ian and Gerry rolling arounf laughing at each others jokes, its simply of waiting for that magical 51%

Not that either would be overly likely to vote for independence.

Well thats where we disagree. Both are probable within the next 10 years. With Ian and Gerry rolling arounf laughing at each others jokes, its simply of waiting for that magical 51%

I think you should describe 'independence' to make sure you're not arguing over minute points.

Is Canada or New Zealand 'independent' in your respective opinions?

Edit: On second thoughts I can see where this is heading shortly. I'm done with this thread.

I am glad that the Union is slowly dying. It seems the long war campaign paid off after all. Today Catholics can actually vote in NI and hold assemblies. Also the nice fact that due to the violence (not so much anymore after GFA, but a settler going through Derry will still probably leave it with two blue eyes) and still existing deep hatred the local Irish population holds for the Protestant settlers they are still leaving in droves. Many Protestants resettling to England. Coupled with Catholic immigration and higher birth rate, a united Ireland should happen eventually.

Don't be silly. Canada and Australia deserve a share as well.

I'm happy to forgoe our portion.

I leave NS for 5 minuets and look what happens...

1: The native population do
2: Operation Banner, 15,000 British soldiers over 30 years and all that?!?
3: They voted for devolution a few years ago and all polls show a majority wanting out of the Union.

1) proof?...

The majority of the indigenous Irish want an end to British rule.

oh right your selecting who you think should have a voice in Irish affairs how silly of me an Englishman with my silly concepts of equal voices for everyone and such...tell me do you also want to force abortions on the invaders when they "rejoin"? what do you think about IRA attacks on innocent (and I'm sorry but this is the legal term for innocent) civilians are justified?

2) yes assisting the police force in dealing with terrorism and generally protecting lives sounds so evil much more evil then anything the IRA ever done thats for sure :rolleyes:

3) source? I presume you have none because you have yet to post this groundbreaking link

The point I'm making is that demographics will have NI out of the union in 10 years and it appears Scotland will take independence if offered.

I'm sorry but how long have you been predicting that now?

But would you consider the north of Ireland as a long term part of the Union with 48.5% of the population of a Nationalist background and growing fast? The GFA copperfastened the idea that the day 50.01% vote for a united Ireland, they get it.

is this the absurd idea that catholics breed like rabbits and protestants with condoms could never pump out enough babies?

Today Catholics can actually vote in NI and hold assemblies.

your days must be awful long

Also the nice fact that due to the violence (not so much anymore after GFA, but a settler going through Derry will still probably leave it with two blue eyes) and still existing deep hatred the local Irish population holds for the Protestant settlers they are still leaving in droves. Many Protestants resettling to England. Coupled with Catholic immigration and higher birth rate, a united Ireland should happen eventually.

1) no the hatred has died in Ireland because you see its not 1916 anymore
2) source for your outlandish claims?

oh right your selecting who you think should have a voice in Irish affairs how silly of me an Englishman with my silly concepts of equal voices for everyone

Which was why Catholics in the 1970's still could not hold assemblies in North Ireland. Or why in districts such as Derry where 85% of the native population were Irish Catholics the ruling board consisted entirely out of Protestant Unionists,...now of course England had nothing to do with these apartheid policies, at least no directly. But once the oppressed Catholic population started rioting and threatening to topple the Unionist state the English made it quite clear after Bloody Sunday on which side they stood.


3) source? I presume you have none because you have yet to post this groundbreaking link

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4158/is_20020211/ai_n12603482

http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/0304/p09s01-woeu.htm

Some nice quotes from the links:

Northern Ireland, with a current population of 1.7 million, was created in 1921 from the island's six northeastern counties, where Protestants were concentrated, to retain the new state's link with Britain. For most of the past century, the unionist/Protestant majority held steady. The unwritten assumption underpinning Protestant political domination was a belief that Catholics would always be a minority.

Protestants have yet to come to terms with the new demographics - partly because, until this year, there were two distinct camps within the small number of academics and statisticians who study population trends in Northern Ireland.

One camp insisted that the Protestant majority would continue indefinitely, despite a higher Catholic birth rate, because of smaller Catholic families after the mass availability of contraception. The other said Catholic family sizes in Northern Ireland still remained larger than the Protestant equivalent and pointed to the relatively high number of Protestant middle-class students in British universities who never returned home after graduating.

Now both camps agree that a 50/50 Protestant/Catholic breakdown is inevitable, perhaps within 10 years but almost certainly before the year 2020. The Protestant population is also older - 10,000 die every year, compared with 5,000 Catholics.

The official census figures will be released later this year, but other indicators already support the expected statistics. There were 173,000 Catholic schoolchildren last year, compared with 146,000 Protestant. Northern Ireland's three largest cities - Belfast, Derry, and Armagh - all now have Catholic majorities.














1) no the hatred has died in Ireland because you see its not 1916 anymore


Hardly. The hatred is still vibrant on both sides. There is no more political movement for a violent overthrow of the government, or long guerilla campaigns. However the two cultures still rarely intermingle. They keep their separate schools, their separate neighborhoods and when asked an Irish Catholic will usually state they are Irish. Whereas a Unionist Protestant will usually state they are British.
Hatred does not have to equal the worst years of the Troubles. It can simply live on in the continued distrust the two sides harbor for eachother, on top of the continued riots at Orangeman parades. How the old wounds are taking long to heal.

But once the oppressed Catholic population started rioting and threatening to topple the Unionist state the English made it quite clear after Bloody Sunday on which side they stood.
Quite happy to tar a lot of people with the same brush, aren't you?

Quite happy to tar a lot of people with the same brush, aren't you?

The Government made clear in 1974 that those who were killed on 'Bloody Sunday' should be regarded as innocent of any allegation that they were shot whilst handling firearms or explosives. I hope that the families of those who died will accept that assurance. ~ John Major

I don't know. When a former conservative English politician, and former Prime Minister himself even stated that the English military massacred innocent people, I tend to accept it as fact.

Or

General Sir Mike Jackson, second-in-command of 2 Para on Bloody Sunday, said: "I have no doubt that innocent people were shot"

Or the fact that the Ministry of Defense tried to sabotage the inquiry along the whole way:

Many observers allege that the Ministry of Defence acted in a way to impede the inquiry.[21] Over 1,000 army photographs and original army helicopter video footage were never made available. Additionally, guns used on the day by the soldiers that could have been evidence in the inquiry were lost by the MoD.[22][23] The MoD claimed that all the guns had been destroyed, but some were subsequently recovered in various locations (such as Sierra Leone, Beirut, and Little Rock, Arkansas) despite the obstruction.



So all in all. Yes I believe my statement was pretty fitting.

People in power aren't often that representative of the common people. I'm not disagreeing that Bloody Sunday was an awful thing, or that people who were innocent were killed, I object to you saying that the entirety of the English were for it.

People in power aren't often that representative of the common people. I'm not disagreeing that Bloody Sunday was an awful thing, or that people who were innocent were killed, I object to you saying that the entirety of the English were for it.

True. At the beginning most English people weren't even truly aware of the ongoings in North Ireland. It took a few bombs going off in London and other parts of England and the murder of English nationals abroad by sympathetic Catholics to get the English people to at least apply some pressure to the government to push for a peaceful resolution. As one can see in the GFA agreement, where the English state pretty much bent over backwards and gave the IRA all of it's demands with the exception of full independence and union with Ireland in return for a promise for peace and an end to the guerilla campaign. But even here, opening the clause to allow North Ireland to democratically secede any time it passes referendum.

Which was why Catholics in the 1970's still could not hold assemblies in North Ireland. Or why in districts such as Derry where 85% of the native population were Irish Catholics the ruling board consisted entirely out of Protestant Unionists,...now of course England had nothing to do with these apartheid policies, at least no directly.

...I think I will just save myself allot of time and mention its not the 1970's and hasn't been for nearly 40 years now

odd that those who support suppressing the rights of citizens because they have different backgrounds seem to use history so much isn't it?

But once the oppressed Catholic population started rioting and threatening to topple the Unionist state the English made it quite clear after Bloody Sunday on which side they stood.

yeah the British government launched two separate investigation on the incident for shits and giggles

then again this was 1972 which I think speaks wonders of the side your trying to argue from

SOURCE

ah the old "catholics have a hive mind" mentality, tell me do you think maybe some Catholics don't follow your little crusade?

what do you think about the death of religion in Europe I'm intrigued to know

Hardly. The hatred is still vibrant on both sides.

yeah those riots are going crazy aren't they :rolleyes:

even the British army has pulled out, face it people can live together in peace (an amazing concept I know)

There is no more political movement for a violent overthrow of the government, or long guerilla campaigns. However the two cultures still rarely intermingle.

They keep their separate schools, their separate neighborhoods and when asked an Irish Catholic will usually state they are Irish. Whereas a Unionist Protestant will usually state they are British.

actually Protestants and Catholics (hive mind mentality again) are going to school together and being happy little humans here are a link:

http://www.economist.com/world/britain/displaystory.cfm?story_id=9164973

as for the school BS its touted by the same old conservative parents who would never want there kids to mingle with those ebil ebil people

another link on how mixed schools are causing peace:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/4621426.stm

The report suggests:

# Protestants who attended an integrated school were less likely to say that they were British or unionist; however, they were not willing to adopt an Irish or nationalist identity.

# Catholics who attended an integrated school were less likely to endorse an Irish identity, but were more likely to say they were neither unionist nor nationalist.

# 80% of Protestants who attended a fairly mixed or segregated school favoured the union with Britain, compared to 65% of those who went to an integrated school.

# 51% of Catholics who attended a segregated school supported Irish re-unification, compared to 35% of those who had experienced integrated education.

Hatred does not have to equal the worst years of the Troubles. It can simply live on in the continued distrust the two sides harbor for eachother, on top of the continued riots at Orangeman parades. How the old wounds are taking long to heal.

Quote from the economist article above:

IN THE end, it was conspicuous for the chuckles. Self-government returned to Northern Ireland on May 8th, as two once-implacable foes took the pledge of office, laughing merrily for the cameras side by side. The Rev Ian Paisley, the head of the Democratic Unionist Party (DUP), who once talked blithely of killing any IRA man who approached a Protestant home, swore to uphold the rule of law as first minister. Martin McGuinness, Sinn Fein's chief negotiator and once one of the IRA's finest, swore in as deputy first minister. For everything there is a season, the Bible says, and Mr Paisley thinks so too: “I believe Northern Ireland has come to a time of peace, when hate will no longer rule.”

so good to hear that votes are proving me right in themselves then

...I think I will just save myself allot of time and mention its not the 1970's and hasn't been for nearly 40 years now

True. But you are not disturbed by the fact that it took until the 1970's for Catholics to win equal rights?

yeah the British government launched two separate investigation on the incident for shits and giggles

You would have preferred had they not?

then again this was 1972 which I think speaks wonders of the side your trying to argue from

Considering this was the event that triggered a guerilla campaign that resulted in the deaths of more than 3,000 people, the last of which were not less than 10 years ago.








yeah those riots are going crazy aren't they :rolleyes:

Severity is hardly an argument against the fact that there are riots,...

even the British army has pulled out, face it people can live together in peace (an amazing concept I know)

Which I pretty much stated. That the violence was over after GFA. Reading comprehension ftw. Learn it. It can spare us repeating ourselves ad infinitum.





actually Protestants and Catholics (hive mind mentality again) are going to school together and being happy little humans here are a link:

http://www.economist.com/world/britain/displaystory.cfm?story_id=9164973

as for the school BS its touted by the same old conservative parents who would never want there kids to mingle with those ebil ebil people

another link on how mixed schools are causing peace:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/4621426.stm


But we can also take this:

http://www.boston.com/globe/nation/packages/good_friday/part1.htm

Or

http://www.pbni.org.uk/bsrachelmonaghan.pdf

Or

as recent as 2005

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1058/is_19_122/ai_n15674713

Or here is the actual hate crime statistic for North Ireland which is insanely high;

http://www.humanrightsfirst.info/pdf/07601-discrim-hate-crimes-web.pdf



Must I go on? To claim that all is dandy and happy in North Ireland and that everyone has long forgotten the clusterfuck England orchestrated there is incredibly infantile and naive. The place is still in recovery phase.

the murder of English nationals abroad by sympathetic Catholics .

when did this happen?!?

CtP, you are aware integrated schooling has taken place in spite of the London Govt? They are private schools that struggled to get any state funding?

when did this happen?!?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Provisional_IRA_campaign_1969%E2%80%931997#Attacks_outside_Northern_Ireland

True. But you are not disturbed by the fact that it took until the 1970's for Catholics to win equal rights?

I'm sorry you was trying to show Ireland being under an oppressive thumb and now you state that equal rights has existed, interesting

You would have preferred had they not?

jumping the gun aren't you? the British government does not support these actions and hasn't for a long long time

Considering this was the event that triggered a guerilla campaign that resulted in the deaths of more than 3,000 people, the last of which were not less than 10 years ago.

actually I think its more to do with racist pricks trying to justify killing innocent people followed by a backlash from the family's they just ruined causing more and more violence

and no the Guerrilla campaign was going on long before this incident, the moment however marked the start of (the IRA in particular) propaganda being drummed out

Severity is hardly an argument against the fact that there are riots,...

no I'm pointing out that Northern Ireland isn't on fire right now

But we can also take this:

well you have decided not to argue with the sources but I guess I will just have some fun with this

http://www.boston.com/globe/nation/packages/good_friday/part1.htm


Community activists say that, although life is undeniably better than before

http://www.pbni.org.uk/bsrachelmonaghan.pdf


The term hate crime covers a range of incidents and/or crimes which are motivated by a
hatred or prejudice of other groups within society, the most common of which are racist
and homophobic hate crime.

its an essay on cultural desensitization stop wasting my time

as recent as 2005

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1058/is_19_122/ai_n15674713

thugs causing trouble because the landmark disarmament agreement

Or here is the actual hate crime statistic for North Ireland which is insanely high;

http://www.humanrightsfirst.info/pdf/07601-discrim-hate-crimes-web.pdf

the essay you already sourced above shows why violent crime is high in Ireland

Must I go on? To claim that all is dandy and happy in North Ireland and that everyone has long forgotten the clusterfuck England orchestrated there is incredibly infantile and naive. The place is still in recovery phase.

I'm still wasting for you to disprove my sources let alone give your own

CtP, you are aware integrated schooling has taken place in spite of the London Govt? They are private schools that struggled to get any state funding?

1) thats because integrated schooling isn't really to do with the London government, its to do with parents not caring if children of different community's play together

2) private schools don't get much in the way of state funding hence the private part

... who will get the permanent UN Security Council seat?

I really wish people could just bury the bloody hatchet and move on. The arguments here are cyclical and rehashing the same points get us nowhere.

It's another version of the Israel/Palestine threads.

never! a happy multicultural society will be formed or else!!!!1

don't make me get Tony Blair to talk until you feel passive :p

I really wish people could just bury the bloody hatchet and move on. The arguments here are cyclical and rehashing the same points get us nowhere.

It's another version of the Israel/Palestine threads.