NationStates Jolt Archive

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/7166932.stm
Kenyans burned to death in church

Thirty Kenyans including many children have been burned to death in a church, after seeking refuge from the mounting violence over last week's elections.

A mob set fire to the church in Eldoret where many people from President Mwai Kibaki's Kikuyu tribe were sheltering.

The Kenyan government has accused supporters of opposition leader Raila Odinga of carrying out "ethnic cleansing" against the Kikuyu.

Both President Kibaki and Mr Odinga have called for the killing to stop.

An estimated 250 people have died in the violence that erupted following the controversial re-election of President Kibaki, according to police and journalists across the country.

President Kibaki, who was swiftly sworn in on Sunday amid opponents' accusations that the poll was rigged, said political parties should meet immediately and publicly called for calm.

But Mr Odinga said he would only hold talks once the re-installed president "publicly owns up that he was not elected".

[...]

There have also been reports of people being hacked to death with machetes, which in combination with parties splitting along ethnic lines, brings up worrying parallels with Rwanda and any given number of other bloody civil wars in Africa.

What do you think would be the best response by the international community?

I can't say what the best course of action is, but I can say what will happen.

Apathy, unless it:

Begins to harm corporate interests.
Or they gather the ability to harm other nations.

Sure, the UN will say "Don't do that," everyone will act disappointed in Kenya, but nobody will genuinely care until it affects them in some way.

I think some people take their politics waaay too seriously. :p

I think some people take their politics waaay too seriously. :p

Good thing here on NSG we can see through politics and remain calm and orderly.

Good thing here on NSG we can see through politics and remain calm and orderly.

Maybe I'm the nut, but when a man with a machete asks me who I'll be voting for, I answer, "Undecided". :p

Really Kenya, come on. Imagine what would happen if Americans rioted every time an election was rigged in some manner or other. We would have riots year round.

Maybe I'm the nut, but when a man with a machete asks me who I'll be voting for, I answer, "Undecided". :p

You ask the guy who he is voting or voted for. Saying undecided may get yourself killed.

You ask the guy who he is voting or voted for. Saying undecided may get yourself killed.

Actually, you just hope you're from the same tribe as he is.

They got lions and tigers only in Kenya. Forget Norway.

They got lions and tigers only in Kenya. Forget Norway.

This confuses me on many levels.

They got lions and tigers only in Kenya - do you mean:

Lions and tigers are only in Kenya, nowhere else
Kenya only has lions and tigers, no other animals

Something else?

Tigers? Kenya?

Where does Norway come into this?

As to the solution, the UN should fund an enormous 'One Kenya' campaign with leaflets, news reports and more focusing on why everyone is Kenyan as opposed to some particular tribe or religion - point out that the enemy is not each other, it's probably Ghana. Then declare war on Ghana.

They're immigrant tigers just looking for a job?

This confuses me on many levels.
Then you are excused and may go.

They got lions and tigers only in Kenya - do you mean:

Lions and tigers are only in Kenya, nowhere else
Kenya only has lions and tigers, no other animals

Something else?

Tigers? Kenya?

Where does Norway come into this?
They also got zebra in Kenya. And badgers, badgers, badgers, mushrooms, mushrooms, and a snake.

They're immigrant tigers just looking for a job?

Are they illegal immigrant tigers? Cause if they are the elephants are not going to like that. ;)

Are they illegal immigrant tigers? Cause if they are the elephants are not going to like that. ;)

Luckily the law is an ass?

Donkey...ass....same thing, nearly?

I'll not quit my day job then.

:(

Luckily the law is an ass?

Donkey...ass....same thing, nearly?

I'll not quit my day job then.

:(


Somehow I knew you would catch that one. :D

This isn't one of those 'let them eat cake' or 'it's not my problem' kind of things, but the African Union should really lead on whatever happens. It good for the Union for Africa handling African problems and helps with the stigma of colonization. Others can help, but it should be lead by the AU.

Somehow I knew you would catch that one. :D

Weak referential jokes are my specialty :)

Is there any historian here, or complete amateur guesser, who can provide an account of how currently, stable countries overcame previous tribal differences to become one nation.

What made the UK united, what made Norway Norwegian or Thailand Thai?

Weak referential jokes are my specialty :)

Is there any historian here, or complete amateur guesser, who can provide an account of how currently, stable countries overcame previous tribal differences to become one nation.

What made the UK united, what made Norway Norwegian or Thailand Thai?

Because most countries unlike the US have only one, or few ehtnic groups which are not much apart culturally. Mainly because former European countries with two or more ethnic groups are either broken up in new countries or has one dominant majority and the other ethnic group(s) make up less then 5 - 10 % of the population. Most of European borders are divided after ethnic lines... Most african countries are not.. that's my guess :D

Is there any historian here, or complete amateur guesser, who can provide an account of how currently, stable countries overcame previous tribal differences to become one nation.

What made the UK united, what made Norway Norwegian or Thailand Thai?
I'm always up for some completely amateur guesswork and so, in a well established tradition of Internet forums, I'll throw these out there without having done any research and with no information to back any of it up...

Perhaps countries like the UK are relatively stable simply because they've existed longer.

Perhaps our magnanimous granting of independence to former colonies, creating new nations at the stroke of a pen whose borders pay little or no heed to millenias-old cultural/tribal/linguistic divisions, was not the best way to promote stability.

Perhaps it's down to technology. Prior to the population explosion in recent centuries (after most of industry was mechanised) the populations of any given country subsisted on what their own citizens could provide. Maybe this allowed a sort of 'natural' formation of borders, where each country was able to support itself. To suddenly draw lines on a map and say that these are the new countries might not work any more.

They're just off the top of my head guesses, but they look feasible to me.

This isn't one of those 'let them eat cake' or 'it's not my problem' kind of things, but the African Union should really lead on whatever happens. It good for the Union for Africa handling African problems and helps with the stigma of colonization. Others can help, but it should be lead by the AU.

But then quite a high proportion of the AU's other members already have similar (or worse) problems along those lines to deal with back home too...

They got lions and tigers only in Kenya. Forget Norway.

You must be raised in east Indian environment only. Only they have the compulsion to add only everywhere. ;)

What do you think would be the best response by the international community?Most of the international community should express regret and keep their hands out of it. The African Union, if any, should deal with it.

which in combination with parties splitting along ethnic lines,

An extremely common occurrence in Africa. Tribalism has more or less always existed, but was exacerbated by colonialism, which not only introduced inter-tribal hostility where none previously existed, but in some cases went so far as to "create" their own tribes. IMO, one of the first things African countries should have done after independence was work to establish a national identity and eliminate - or minimize - tribalism, rather than exploit it. With a few extremely rare exceptions, like Tanzania under Julius Nyerere, most African states kept tribalism. During the rule of the late Eyedema of Togo, for example, upwards of 90% of the armed forces was composed of members of his tribe. Other notable tribalists include Kenyatta (Kikuyu) and Mobutu (Ngbandi).

brings up worrying parallels with Rwanda and any given number of other bloody civil wars in Africa.

Unlikely. Kenya is one of the more stable countries in Africa. The fighting may continue for awhile and get ugly, but outright genocide is unlikely. This kind of thing is, sadly, not new. In the mid-1990s, several hundred Kenyans died in inter-ethnic clashes deliberately instigated by Moi's government to "divide and rule" the populace.

What do you think would be the best response by the international community?

Urge all parties involved to exercise calm and restraint, encourage a vote recount (preferrably supervised by international observers), invite the two sides together for talks, and advise their citizens not to travel there at this time. That's all.

Really Kenya, come on. Imagine what would happen if Americans rioted every time an election was rigged in some manner or other. We would have riots year round.

You have to remember, Kenya has had a dictatorial government for most of its history. It was a de facto one-party state from independence until 1982, when it became a de jure one-party state for about a decade. Even in the 1990s, when the country adopted "multipartyism," electoral fraud and inter-ethnic violence (stoked up by the central government), ensured that elections were farcicial. Kenya did not have a genuinely competitive election until 2002.

Moreover, the corruption of the Kenyan government dwarfs the Bush Administration. In 2002, Kibaki was elected on an anti-graft platform. Between 2002 and 2005, over a billion dollars in aid money went "unaccounted for." Pre-election polls indicated Kibaki was losing. Now not only does he win, but by a larger margin than expected. Of course Kenyans are going to be upset. And they obviously can't challenge this legal means, due to the rampant corruption of the justice system. Not that I am excusing this violence, but when you have a government like Kenyans have, violence is usually the only avenue of political expression you know.

I say we watch the chaos on the news for maybe a week and then forget about it

at least they have taken to burning churches now :)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/7166932.stm


There have also been reports of people being hacked to death with machetes, which in combination with parties splitting along ethnic lines, brings up worrying parallels with Rwanda and any given number of other bloody civil wars in Africa.

What do you think would be the best response by the international community?

i have given up on africa, there is just too much killing for my taste

Weak referential jokes are my specialty :)

Is there any historian here, or complete amateur guesser, who can provide an account of how currently, stable countries overcame previous tribal differences to become one nation.

What made the UK united, what made Norway Norwegian or Thailand Thai?

Well, the IRA would beg to differ I'm sure. But the big thing that messes up African countries (Also: I am a high school student with limited knowledge mostly that which I've looked up myself, take all this with a salt shaker full of... salt) is/was imperalism. When we redesigned Africa's map we put a lot of different tribes in one place and made them co-operate. We also seperated tribes with borders, so now all the previous stabiliy that took thousands of years to build was gone.

For example: Sudan. The North was Muslim and lighter-skined and more Egyptany the South was Black and Christain. They where united when Britain decided to take over and when Britian decided to leave again the South decided to revolt against (what they percieved to be) the oppressive North. When Nimeiry (sp?) took over he sought to quash revolt and instituted Islamic Law. Obviously the South wasn't pleased. More coups, and more fighting against the South. This fighting eventually lead to the genocide that is present today.

Same thing with Rwanda, they left one group in power of the other, that side wants to keep power, the other side(s) want rights too, and a little power themselves and yay, genocide.

So pretty much groups that hate each other are forced to work together by the West, after being murdered and enslaves. Before these wounds get to heal corrupt individuals take power, kill oppostition. One group doesn't agree with the other, one has (politcal) superiority that the other group resents, they try to gain equality the group in charge doesn't want to give it up. Genocide. Loverly, ain't it?

i have given up on africa, there is just too much killing for my taste

I have given up on America/Britian/Canada/Australia/Where ever the hell you are from, there is just too much apathy for my taste.

Yeah, well, see if we care

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/7166932.stm


There have also been reports of people being hacked to death with machetes, which in combination with parties splitting along ethnic lines, brings up worrying parallels with Rwanda and any given number of other bloody civil wars in Africa.

What do you think would be the best response by the international community?

If ONLY they had some oil.

They got lions and tigers only in Kenya. Forget Norway.

Kenya! Oh Kenya!

Where the Giraffes are!

And the Zebra!

I can't say what the best course of action is, but I can say what will happen.

Apathy, unless it:

Begins to harm corporate interests.
Or they gather the ability to harm other nations.

Sure, the UN will say "Don't do that," everyone will act disappointed in Kenya, but nobody will genuinely care until it affects them in some way.

Lamentably, i think you're spot on.
:(