NationStates Jolt Archive

This post is intended to find out what other people think about schizophrenia.

According to
"Models of Madness"
"Psychological, social, biological approaches to schizophrenia", Page 50 2nd paragraph. part 1 chapter 5, John Read.
This was some of the symptoms associated with schizophrenia.
(i picked this out because it was interesting and very odd, i know i shouldn't really take one book for this but i couldn't resist)

Handwriting (Coron et al 2000)
Blood type (Rinieris et al 1982)
Season of birth (Meltzer 1987)
Signs of homosexuality among men (Chaudhury and Jyothi 1996; Mujtaba and Mujtaba 1985)
Hip circumference among women (Singer et al 1976)
Ear shape, position of eyes, size of gap between toes, finger curvature, snout reflex and upper lip width (Lawrie et al 2001)
Inaddequate 'attractiveness' among women (Higdon 1982)
ability to smell accurately (Stribel et al 1999) turned out to be the effects of anti-psychotic medication
innapropriate masturbation (Brooks and Waikar 2000)
Tattoos (Birmingham et al 1999)
Head circumference (too big or small), soft and pliable ears, third toe longer than second toe (Schiffman et al 2002)
Proximity of mother to cats during pregnancy (Torrey and Yolken 1995)
Reaction to body products (Diamond and Hirt 1974)

I understand there are many other ways for people to be diagnosed with schizophrenia and the writer wanted to draw attention to how bizzare some of these "symptoms" are, but to me many of these symptoms are very typical of what some ordinary "Lower class" people have, such as tattoos.

I think "reaction to body products" means body deodorant and soap products.

-my opinion of this-
I can only guess as to how pliable ears leads to schizophrenia, or head circumference or most of the other symptoms. What worries me is how recent some of this research is, the most recent being 2002.
If i had to make a crude generalisation on some scientific research, i'd say alot of newspapers will pick up stories about the religious communities or events and it would grab alot of attention, however some scientific research doesn't get half as much attention and can cause far greater problems, but tends to go unnoticed.
It seems what the book i've quoted is saying is that schizophrenia might not really exist, it's just a catch-all term used to put "odd" people in mental institutions, yet even the medication can affect what the symptoms really are.
I am stunned as to how the scientific community can publish these as symptoms so recently, and shows that perhaps science doesn't hold all the correct answers to "be healthy".

Any thoughts or questions on this?

That book is about as worthwhile as a book insisting that the moon is made of green cheese.

Its spelt "schizophrenia". The cat thing is probably to do with Toxoplasmis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toxoplasmosis).

...as worthwhile as a book insisting that the moon is made of green cheese.

Hey! Time will tell on that one.

:mad:

Its spelt "schizophrenia". The cat thing is probably to do with Toxoplasmis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toxoplasmosis).

oops,thanks:)

Hey! Time will tell on that one.

:mad:
Time has told.

Sorry :(

i do hope that the authors werent suggesting that one can use those things as a way to diagnose or predict schizophrenia.

ive known a few schizophrenics. its a tough condition to live with.

the fact that most South Asian communities are talking to themselves on a regular basis and particularly believe this is a way to talk to their ancestors spins the definition on its head really

modern psychiatry points to either a coping mechanism, some biological issue that has not yet been discovered or possession by the devil to explain schizophrenias

(I suggest you avoid such books in future)

I love pop science and its mass distributed crap.

Well my cousin is a schizo, and he doesn't really fit into any of those categories.

the fact that most South Asian communities are talking to themselves on a regular basis and particularly believe this is a way to talk to their ancestors spins the definition on its head really

the diagnosis of schizophrenia precludes "delusions" that are in fact cultural norms for the patient.

gah what a load of rubbish .... im sure if you put any group of random people together you will find matching characteristics amongst them ... its like saying your likly to be a football fan because you like pies as (random figure) 50% of football fans eat pies at matches

Ive come into contact with a fair few sufferers and the only common thing ive noticed is they all have the voices problem (they range an oxford univercity student (no tatts etc) to a very religious person (no tatts again)... the only common thing is its ruining there live (with the above two examples one was a short white man the other a tall asain man)

the diagnosis of schizophrenia precludes "delusions" that are in fact cultural norms for the patient.

wasn't referring to the cultural variation, I was talking about how mental illness is ignored in some communities which makes such "research" silly at this point

otherwise living in China is very good for ones mental health

I have both a friend and a relative who are schizophrenic. It's too serious a condition to subject to "pop" definitions and opinions.

Here's a link to schizophrenia,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schizophrenia
Prognosis
"Most studies done on this subject, however, are correlational in nature, and a clear cause-and-effect relationship is difficult to establish. Evidence is also consistent that negative attitudes towards individuals with schizophrenia can have a significant adverse impact."

After reading some of what wikipedia says on it, it seems almost believeable that schizophrenia doesn't really exist.

"Schizophrenia, from the Greek roots schizein (σχίζειν, "to split") and phrēn, phren- (φρήν, φρεν-, "mind"), is a psychiatric diagnosis that describes a mental illness characterized by impairments in the perception or expression of reality, most commonly manifesting as auditory hallucinations, paranoid or bizarre delusions or disorganized speech and thinking in the context of significant social or occupational dysfunction. "

How does disorganized thinking or speech lead to schizophrenia? Or why is it a symptom? I know alot of people who make mistakes when speaking, i certainly do it all the time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thought_disorder

specific subtypes in detail- the last two definitions
"Phonemic paraphasia - Mispronunciation; syllables out of sequence. e.g. "I slipped on the lice broke my arm."
Semantic paraphasia - Substitution of inappropriate word. e.g. "I slipped on the coat, on the ice I mean, and broke my book."

I know lots of people guilty of semantic paraphasia according to this definition, i can understand what the author is trying to say but there are certain situations where most people might not speak properly e.g. before an audience. Again perhaps i'm looking at this the wrong way but it seems that schizophrenia is just made part of a "package of other "disorders", and then the person who is diagnosed with this illness has the stigma of the illness.

diagnostic issues
"A comparison between autism and schizophrenia showed that they did not differ in degree of affective blunting, and that people with autism showed poverty of speech, poverty of content of speech and perseveration."

Poverty of speech? does that mean the person doesn't know many words, or they use them incorrectly.

"Many people with Asperger syndrome also make idiosyncratic use of words, including coinages and unusual juxtapositions. This can develop into a rare gift for humor (especially puns, wordplay, doggerel, satire) or writing."

Gift of humour from having an illness? does this mean all comedians have Asperger syndrome? or only some of them.

Again what i'm trying to pin down is what schizophrenia really is, the symptoms that i've taken out of context above show that it's very hard to diagnose the illness properly, which leads me to suggest that it isn't an illness at all, just people being different, nothing wrong with that as far as i'm concerned. Maybe i i'm not looking at this properly, but how can you prove you have a thought disorder, even if my conclusions are incorrect it's still a little odd to add thought disorder as a symptom, as it would be hard to do research on thought disorders that is reliable i would assume.

Asperger's is technically a kind of autism, I think, so you're really only comparing two things there. Anyway, I think the main trait of schizophrenia is a disconnect with reality of some sort and varying severity. This can come in the form of paranoia or other delusion and it's also characterized by the observation that it seems to have a fairly large link to genes as it often runs in families. I don't think any such correlation has been observed with autism, but I may be wrong. Oh, and keep in mind that the speech patterns things have to be taken within the context of other symptoms, it's simply a part of the whole.

A person who has trouble speaking isn't immediately diagnosed as a schizophrenic, but if they have trouble speaking, always think people are out to get them and sometimes hear brief auditory hallucinations...well, chances are they've got schizophrenia then. If they have...other stuff, then they might be autistic (though, from what I've been told, autism is really tricky because of how vague of a definition there is for it).

Finally, I'm neither a psychiatrist nor a psychologist, nor have I ever taken more than psyc 101 so I advise you take what I've said with a fairly large grain of salt. Oh, and if there's anything that's iffy it's some of the things on the autism spectrum like Asperger's. It's one of those weird ailments that people enjoy laying claim to, it seems, even though it has the diagnostic specificity of a fortune cookie.

Roses are red,
Violets are blue,
I'm schizophrenic,
and so am I.




:D

I was gonna say, in b4 mix up with Dissociative Identity Disorder and Schizophrenia, but apparently I got beaten to the punch.

DID means you have multiple personalities. Schizophrenia means you have auditory hallucinations, bizarre speech pattern, and a general lack of hygiene.

I've taken some courses on Psychology (and plan on being a psychologist), so I can try to answer your questions on why it is, in fact, a mental disorder.

Again what i'm trying to pin down is what schizophrenia really is, the symptoms that i've taken out of context above show that it's very hard to diagnose the illness properly, which leads me to suggest that it isn't an illness at all, just people being different, nothing wrong with that as far as i'm concerned. Maybe i i'm not looking at this properly, but how can you prove you have a thought disorder, even if my conclusions are incorrect it's still a little odd to add thought disorder as a symptom, as it would be hard to do research on thought disorders that is reliable i would assume.

Surely the above goes for any mental illness though ... if its physical it can be seen... if its mental it cant be seen/proved to be real as such in any illness not just schizophrenia

How do you prove to people you have a headache?? and you know personally that headaches come in different stregths etc some are just annoying and others can really hurt (hangover?). Could it be that most of the world fakes headaches (not talking about bedroom antics here lol) just because we cant see it?

How do you prove Shell shock is real ... its all in a persons head ... but how many people does it take you to hear about before you start thinking there could actually be something in it? Does it take 5 random people with it to make you start to question if its a real problem

as for you just thinking that people are being different how many people do you know that really think they can hear God or the Devil talking to them regularly??

as for adding thought disorder as a sympton .... what would you call it where someones brain isnt working right so that there thoughts get bounced back in such a way that they think that they arent there own thoughts (thats how schizoprenia starts and it gets worse the more they worry about it)
(they go down a massive 'what if' spiral that unlike ''well/normal'' people do and just snap out of and move on they cant .... just imagen you couldnt get the thought of something trivial out of your head what do you think would happen to that thought?

which leads me to suggest that it isn't an illness at all, just people being different, nothing wrong with that as far as i'm concerned.

with that line that leads me to think that you think Dementure, shell shock OCD are all people just being different aswell and that if scientists hadnt been able to work out what gravity was because you cant see it you'd believe gravity doesnt exist ... heck youd probably believe the world was still flat and that who ever it was that was saying it was round had some mental illness or was 'just different'

I am atleast glad you said you dont mind people being different as it does show tolerance for something you dont understand and you would give anyone a fair chance no matter what was wrong with them

Again what i'm trying to pin down is what schizophrenia really is, the symptoms that i've taken out of context above show that it's very hard to diagnose the illness properly, which leads me to suggest that it isn't an illness at all,
So if it's hard to diagnose it's not real?

And as you've said, you've taken the symptoms out of context. If I went to a doctor with "I have a rash", could they diagnose me just from that statement?

I'm gonna go ahead and assume that you don't actually know anyone who suffers from schizophrenia...?

Notable Victims:

Jesus
Abraham
Mohammed
Joan of Arc
A lot of religious people today

I've taken some courses on Psychology (and plan on being a psychologist), so I can try to answer your questions on why it is, in fact, a mental disorder.

yay we can study together :p

though why not stick Forensic on the front of that career?

yay we can study together :p

though why not stick Forensic on the front of that career?

Because I'm more attracted to the Clinical side of things.;)

Because I'm more attracted to the Clinical side of things.;)

confess! like me you just want to sit around and talk about shit all day

its just a case of who we want to not listen to :p

confess! like me you just want to sit around and talk about shit all day

its just a case of who we want to not listen to :p

Actually, I want to listen to the crazies talk about their world. It's cool.

Talking on the part of the therapist isn't very conductive if they dominate the conversation.

I'm not schizophrenic, but I do have a related disorder, and I just wanted to address the idea that people with mental disorders are "just different."

I do appreciate the sentiment there - I spent years as a teenager railing against the idea that there was something wrong with me; I hated being termed in any way disabled or diseased. I do think that our society can be far too quick to equate "different" with "bad." But - and this is a big but - the simple fact is that mental illnesses are illnesses. They're not just oddities on the part of the people who have them - they're cases where the brain simply isn't working properly. For example, my own brain is incapable of properly regulating serotonin levels by itself. That's not just some quirk in my personality - that's my brain failing to operate properly. It's not my fault, and no one should think I'm "bad" because of it, but neither is it something I should just accept as part of who I am, because, rotten as it is to hear someone tell you, "You're diseased," it's even worse to hear, "You're just intrinsically miserable and always will be."

I am stunned as to how the scientific community can publish these as symptoms

And I am stunned by how you can be so ignorant of what a symptom is. Almost none of the things you mentioned are symptoms - they just seem to be statistical correlations.

Also, for some reason, you seem to think that symptoms cause primary disease, when in fact primary diseases cause symptoms. You ask: "How does disorganized thinking or speech lead to schizophrenia?" They don't. Schizophrenia can lead to them. You're asking a question as silly as "How do chest pains with referral to the left arm and up towards the neck and jaw lead to heart attacks?" or "How do heart murmurs lead to valve disease?" - heart attacks cause the pain, valve disease cause the murmurs, schizophrenia causes disorganised thinking and peculiar speech patterns. Primary diseases give symptoms, symptoms don't give primary disease.

Now, taken on their own out of context, "disorganised thinking" and "peculiar speech patterns" sound so nebulous - we all have those sometimes! The thing is, in schizophrenics within a context those symptoms can be quite specific. The formal "disorganised thinking" in schizophrenics is not about the contents of the thoughts, but their course of events. It isn't about acceleration or deceleration of thoughts, but of sudden "stops" or "blocks" in their speech. The train of thought can be experienced as being "cut off" or the thoughts as pulled away ("thought detraction"). In "thought imposition" and "thought crowding" the patient experiences new, interrupting thoughts which can be seen through the symptoms of nonsensical associations, neologisms, and in difficult cases complete gibberish.

The patients also have an ego disturbance - they cannot tell the difference between themselves and the environment. The demarcation of self and the outside world becomes blurred; emotions, wills and thoughts become "affected" from the outside; sometimes it's felt as if one has two or more selves. Thoughts can be perceived as having been thought simultaneously by others as if they had been transmitted through radio waves ("thought broadcasting"). Often in trying to explain such extraordinary experiences, schizophrenics turn to phenomena such as hypnosis, telepathy, ESP, cosmic radiation or supernatural/religious influences. Somatically there is often a sensation of being exposed to rays of different kinds.

I once met a typical schizophrenic without any insight into his disease who claimed that his neighbour (to whom he had attributed his auditory hallucinations - the noises he heard had to be caused by the neighbour who lived in the flat above him - and around whom he had come to centre all his symptoms of persecution and thought broadcasting) had somehow rebuilt his microwave oven to "radiate" the schizophrenic's body. The patient built a Faraday cage around his bed to protect himself, but that of course didn't work since this was a secondary delusion to his schizophrenic symptoms - he explained it by the neighbour having detected the cage and found a way of penetrating it. So, the patient moved to a motel far away from the neighbour and, of course, still felt the rays and explained it with the neighbour having to have followed him or somehow having a nation-wide network of "emitters" (which he used colourful and nonsensical neologisms to describe) all aimed against him, and these rays had to be the cause of both his somatic sensations and of these thoughts he no longer viewed as his own. It went so far as to him suing his neighbour for this and in the end plotting to have him killed - fortunately he called the police and urged them to kill the neighbour otherwise he would, so the police brought him to care.

As you can see, when "disorganised thinking" and "peculiar speech patterns" are put into the context of the patient's others symptoms and behaviour, they become something very, very different from what regular people might think of as their own disorganised thoughts and penchant for puns and such.

*snip

Off topic: Have you picked a concentration for med school yet, out of curiosity?

I'm not schizophrenic, but I do have a related disorder, and I just wanted to address the idea that people with mental disorders are "just different."

I do appreciate the sentiment there - I spent years as a teenager railing against the idea that there was something wrong with me; I hated being termed in any way disabled or diseased. I do think that our society can be far too quick to equate "different" with "bad." But - and this is a big but - the simple fact is that mental illnesses are illnesses. They're not just oddities on the part of the people who have them - they're cases where the brain simply isn't working properly. For example, my own brain is incapable of properly regulating serotonin levels by itself. That's not just some quirk in my personality - that's my brain failing to operate properly. It's not my fault, and no one should think I'm "bad" because of it, but neither is it something I should just accept as part of who I am, because, rotten as it is to hear someone tell you, "You're diseased," it's even worse to hear, "You're just intrinsically miserable and always will be."

Schizotypal?

Schizotypal?

Bipolar II, actually. It's great fun, where by "fun" I mean "a lifetime of trying to find the right cocktail of meds to render me capable of even nominally functioning."

I'm in two minds about the whole issue.

Bipolar II, actually. It's great fun, where by "fun" I mean "a lifetime of trying to find the right cocktail of meds to render me capable of even nominally functioning."

That sucks.

Off topic: Have you picked a concentration for med school yet, out of curiosity?

One does not choose concentrations in med school in Sweden. After med school one works for roughly two years rotating in different fields to gain experience mostly with regard to acute conditions and emergencies (called allmäntjänstgöring - AT). When finished with that and passing a practical and written exam, one gets one's licence. First then does one apply for a specialisttjänstgöring (ST) in the field one wishes to specialise, works as an "ST doctor" for 5.5 years and takes a specialist exam, after which one gains one's specialist licence.

I am finishing my 5.5 years of med school in June and am not going to apply for an AT until the beginning of 2009, so I'll spend the intervening six months as a temp doctor in primary health care. I want a break - I went straight from upper secondary school to university and that means I have been in school from the age of 7 to 25. Before I go on with further training, I want to have time to think about where I want to go... so, I probably will not have chosen a concentration for at least two more years. :\

*snippity snip*
Another issue that's raised by peoples' apparent schizophrenic symptoms is that, once diagnosed as such, it's awfully difficult not to be 'undiagnosed'. Pretty much everything they say is just further 'proof' that they're still suffering from schizophrenia.
ie.
On being sane in insane places (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosenhan_experiment)

*snip!*

Very well said. It isn't the size of the tail that wags the dog, but the dog that wags the tail.

One does not choose concentrations in med school in Sweden. After med school one works for roughly two years rotating in different fields to gain experience mostly with regard to acute conditions and emergencies (called allmäntjänstgöring - AT). When finished with that and passing a practical and written exam, one gets one's licence. First then does one apply for a specialisttjänstgöring (ST) in the field one wishes to specialise, works as an "ST doctor" for 5.5 years and takes a specialist exam, after which one gains one's specialist licence.

I am finishing my 5.5 years of med school in June and am not going to apply for an AT until the beginning of 2009, so I'll spend the intervening six months as a temp doctor in primary health care. I want a break - I went straight from upper secondary school to university and that means I have been in school from the age of 7 to 25. Before I go on with further training, I want to have time to think about where I want to go... so, I probably will not have chosen a concentration for at least two more years. :\

Wow, that's pretty rough. And a huge time comittment (incidentally, if I'm not mistaken, you folks start slightly later than we do, as I was in 1st grade by age 5.)

I can understand wanting to take time off and think it over. I'm planning on doing the same, working a few years in the industry before I make a decision to go to grad school or go for an MBA. Mostly I just want to be out of school and semi-independent for once.

Is university subsidized in Sweden, or do you have a massive amount of student loans awaiting you when you finish?

Another issue that's raised by peoples' apparent schizophrenic symptoms is that, once diagnosed as such, it's awfully difficult not to be 'undiagnosed'. Pretty much everything they say is just further 'proof' that they're still suffering from schizophrenia.
ie.On being sane in insane places (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosenhan_experiment)

I don't quite see what you're trying to say in regard to what I said.

I don't quite see what you're trying to say in regard to what I said.
Just that peoples (and doctors. especially doctors) attitudes to symptoms alter according to what context they're taken in, for good or bad.

Wow, that's pretty rough. And a huge time comittment (incidentally, if I'm not mistaken, you folks start slightly later than we do, as I was in 1st grade by age 5.)

Well, as both AT and ST are actual salaried positions, i.e. work, it's just a part of one's job, so the "huge time commitment" is just part of what working as a doctor in this country is. You can view them as obligatory career steps.

I can understand wanting to take time off and think it over. I'm planning on doing the same, working a few years in the industry before I make a decision to go to grad school or go for an MBA. Mostly I just want to be out of school and semi-independent for once.

Yeah, you want to take a shot at the real world.

Is university subsidized in Sweden, or do you have a massive amount of student loans awaiting you when you finish?

University itself is "free", i.e. without tuition so it doesn't cost anything (other than taxes for everyone, of course). Food and shelter aren't, though. One has the choice of working to pay for those two things or loaning money to pay for them. The "loan" is actually two things: one part is a subsidy that one doesn't have to pay back (around $460 a month) and basically everyone gets that if they haven't used it up already (you can only get it for 6 years worth of study in your life and once those years are up, they're up) or make too much money to be eligible for it, and the other part is an actual loan that has to be paid back. Seeing as med school leaves one little time to work without it having a risk of affecting one's performance, I chose the loan and when I finish in the summer I will have a student loan debt around $30 000 (in today's weak USA dollar). So, it's not that bad and since the loan is from the government the conditions and rates are quite decent, so I don't sweat it. Also, I gather that at universities in the USA, $30 000 is a year's tuition alone or something like that, so I am comparatively fortunate.

Just that peoples (and doctors. especially doctors) attitudes to symptoms alter according to what context they're taken in, for good or bad.

Well, all sorts of diagnoses are "stigmatising" in the sense that it's easy to accept them once made - the tricky part about it is having the wherewithal to question earlier diagnoses made by others (and oneself, of course). It's easier to do with diseases that have detectable, somatic parameters (a fracture diagnosis can in most cases easily be confirmed or rejected) than with diseases that "only" have symptoms and where we can't yet "see" the bodily defect and this diagnoses can be down to interpretations of symptoms alone, true, but scepticism and lack thereof are part of all fields.

Well, as both AT and ST are actual salaried positions, i.e. work, it's just a part of one's job, so the "huge time commitment" is just part of what working as a doctor in this country is. You can view them as obligatory career steps.

Ah, it's like a residency. That's not so bad, then, I suppose.

Yeah, you want to take a shot at the real world.

Exactly. Mostly I want to get out from under my parents' thumb, as childish a motivation as that may be.

University itself is "free", i.e. without tuition so it doesn't cost anything (other than taxes for everyone, of course). Food and shelter aren't, though. One has the choice of working to pay for those two things or loaning money to pay for them. The "loan" is actually two things: one part is a subsidy that one doesn't have to pay back (around $460 a month) and basically everyone gets that if they haven't used it up already (you can only get it for 6 years worth of study in your life and once those years are up, they're up) or make too much money to be eligible for it, and the other part is an actual loan that has to be paid back. Seeing as med school leaves one little time to work without it having a risk of affecting one's performance, I chose the loan and when I finish in the summer I will have a student loan debt around $30 000 (in today's weak USA dollar). So, it's not that bad and since the loan is from the government the conditions and rates are quite decent, so I don't sweat it. Also, I gather that at universities in the USA, $30 000 is a year's tuition alone or something like that, so I am comparatively fortunate.

That's actually not bad at all. The cost of a university varies in the US. The school I used to go to cost 40k a year (I knocked it down to 25 with a scholarship) and that's generally the upper limit, even for the top-tier private schools. There are also public, government-funded universities where that number is generally considerably lower. For instance, at the university I'm going to now, I pay 10k a year, without a scholarship.

There's also financial aid, based on your income, which I don't believe, (having never had to work with it) but that someone might have to correct me on, needs to be paid back.

There's also financial aid, based on your income, which I don't believe, (having never had to work with it) but that someone might have to correct me on, needs to be paid back.
You have two types, grants and loans, I got 3K in grants my first year in college and then 10K in a loan, the loan had to be paid back starting 6 months after I graduated at a rate of 4% (I think, I just saved up and paid the 10K all in like 2 months......I would rather not eat for 2 months and you know live in a horrible apartment than be in debt)

I get grants mostly now, no loans, after the grants my college is about 4K a semester, so it's totally doable.

You have two types, grants and loans, I got 3K in grants my first year in college and then 10K in a loan, the loan had to be paid back starting 6 months after I graduated at a rate of 4% (I think, I just saved up and paid the 10K all in like 2 months......I would rather not eat for 2 months and you know live in a horrible apartment than be in debt)

I get grants mostly now, no loans, after the grants my college is about 4K a semester, so it's totally doable.

Thanks.

Yeah because of the fact that I'm still a dependent and my parents income being what it is, we got absolutely zilch in financial aid.