NationStates Jolt Archive

Just saw it on the news when I woke up. Apparently the Associated Press says Bhutto is dead after being seriously wounded in a suicide attack.
I cant find any links to online stories though. Anybody got anything on this?

Just this moment the radio said she died in a suicide attack.

BBC: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/7161590.stm

Just saw it on the news when I woke up. Apparently the Associated Press says Bhutto is dead after being seriously wounded in a suicide attack.
I cant find any links to online stories though. Anybody got anything on this?

Here you go. http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,,2232458,00.html

Just saw it on the news when I woke up. Apparently the Associated Press says Bhutto is dead after being seriously wounded in a suicide attack.
I cant find any links to online stories though. Anybody got anything on this?
Yahoo!'s lead story describes the attack.

german source: http://www.nzz.ch/nachrichten/startseite/bhutto_entgeht_selbstmordanschlag_1.640770.html

According to this, a party speaker confirmed she died in a suicide attack during a campaign rally in Rawalpindi, along with more than 20 others.
Until a few minutes ago, the news had been that she escaped unharmed.

AP has just confirmed her death. :(
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/P/PAKISTAN?SITE=CTDAN&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT

Holy shizen... I saw her on the news the other day speaking out against the Madrasas. Obviously I have no idea whether the attack is linked with that (it's not the first attempt on her life), but I thought at the time that she would've pissed off even more some of the wrong people. I worry about what might happen now.

Shit... :(

http://www.thestar.com/News/article/288947

This source also confirms it, and gives the time of her death as: "At 6:16 p.m. she expired," said Wasif Ali Khan, a member of Bhutto's party who was at Rawalpindi General Hospital.

What are the ramifications of her death? She hasn't been a major factor in Pakistani politics for a long time. Assume she won a seat, what difference would she have made in the area? Was she even a real threat to anyone?

Bloody hell. I heard on the radio that she was only injured about a half-hour ago.

She got very much on the wrong side of the military and of the fundamentalists last time around. This time she learned not to make enemies of the military, but as far as I know those suicide bombers aren't secular. Such religious establishments would undoubtedly have been the biggest losers.

Wow, seems like Musharraf and his puppeteer in the white house have accomplished their goal.

Shit... :(
qft

Oh my. :(

"This is why Pakistan needs a state of emergency" : I can see this being used to further cement Musharraf's power.

God damned dirty motherfuckers


:(

Opinion polls show her as having more popular support than Musharaff. She was the only credible political figure that could actually pose a political threat to him. Many of her supporters will blame him as having a role in this. We may get national turmoil, revolt, another state of emergency, and if the new head of the military believes it was a conspiracy (he served as minister under Bhutto), then he may launch a coup against Musharaff and depose him. While all of this political turmoil is going, who will be watching Pakistan's 50 nuclear warheads? And who will be fighting Al-Qaeda?

The situation is bad now in Pakistan, the suicide blast has made is worse, and we have to monitor the country's political and social climate very carefully.

This would make for a good scenario to roleplay on our nationstates regions. I am a member of the Africa region (which includes Pakistan) and will roleplay it there, but I also encourage each of you to generate debates on the fragile health of Pakistan and the different scenarios that are likely to take place now that the leading opposition figure is gone -- whether by the hand of Islamic militants or the government...

Wasn't she remarkably crooked, though?

Or am I mixing her with another former Pakistani PM?

What are the ramifications of her death? She hasn't been a major factor in Pakistani politics for a long time. Assume she won a seat, what difference would she have made in the area?

She could not have become PM again due to the 2 term upper limit. She tried to get it scrapped but until now it was not scrapped.

Her party, PPP (pak peoples party), is basically out of Sindh - the 2nd major province after Punjab.

While she has the image of being a "moderate", "progressive" etc now, it has to be remembered that it was under her regime that the taliban was formed by Pakistan. Gen Babar, Bhutto's interior minister and JUI-F's Mullah Fazl-ur-Rehman, were the ones who masterminded the taliban. Fazlur Rehman is called the father of taliban and Benazir the mother.

It was under her regime that the Kashmir jihad also became a big problem. After the failed Rajiv Gandhi-Bhutto summit - she was near hysterical and screaming jihad jihad and rallying the "kashmir cause".

Was she even a real threat to anyone?

To Musharraf - as a potential alternate power center.

To the islamists - who can't have a woman rule a islamic state. Women are supposed to put a beekeeper suit and cook for the men at home.

Wasn't she remarkably crooked, though?

Or am I mixing her with another former Pakistani PM?
She was accused of corruption, but don't know (or think) whether she was found guilty in a fair court of law.

She was accused of corruption, but don't know (or think) whether she was found guilty in a fair court of law.

Her husband, Asif Zardari, was. He was jailed for many years.

He was called Mr.10% because of his demanding 10% of the money in any project that Benazir had to sign.

She had cases against her, but she went out of the country before she could be tried for it. Musharraf had the cases dropped as part of a deal.

She was accused of corruption, but don't know (or think) whether she was found guilty in a fair court of law.
Possibly not, but a quick scan of the Wikipedia article (I know everyone has issues with Wikipedia, but it's better than it was), there is a hell of a lot of evidence against her, supplied by the Swiss, the French and the Polish.

The islamists were behind this for sure.I doubt the military did it.
Yeah she was accsued of corruption corruption but as far as I know she was never brought to court.

Musharraf will declare martial law and extremist factions will become a whole lot more active.

Military v extremist
:mp5: v :sniper:

Oh my. :(

"This is why Pakistan needs a state of emergency" : I can see this being used to further cement Musharraf's power.

Indeed. And it would also be a good excuse for him to do a few more backdoor dealings with the White House for more weapons on the grounds of "keeping nuclear weapons out of the hands of religious extremists", which is true enough.

And also give him a bit more free reign in quashing the Madrassa's.

IS THERE NO HOPE FOR SANITY IN THE MIDDLE EAST? Sorry, had to get that off mah chest...

IS THERE NO HOPE FOR SANITY IN THE MIDDLE EAST? Sorry, had to get that off mah chest...Not as long as the US is backing certain regimes

Wasn't she remarkably crooked, though?
No more so than anyone else high up in politics.
Or am I mixing her with another former Pakistani PM?
Probably Nawaz Sharif.

And also give him a bit more free reign in quashing the Madrassa's.

Musharraf needs the madrassas. Those are the breeding ground of his attack dogs. Where will he go for jihadis to use against others if he quashes the madrassas?

IS THERE NO HOPE FOR SANITY IN THE MIDDLE EAST? Sorry, had to get that off mah chest...
It's not really the Middle East, it's at the north-west of the Indian Subcontinent.

Wasn't she remarkably crooked, though?

Or am I mixing her with another former Pakistani PM?

Well, the other former PM - Nawaz Shariff was a crooked fellow too. So you are not wrong.

Incidentally, there was an attack on his election rally too, today.

http://www.zeenews.com/articles.asp?aid=415381&sid=WOR
Islamabad, Dec 27: Four people were shot dead and several injured at an election campaign rally of former Pakistan PM, Nawaz Sharif in Rawalapindi on Thursday, police officials said.

So if Musharraf is behind this, will the US stand by him nevertheless?

PPP cadres will want to show 'street power'

I hope to be wrong, but I think there will be riots pretty soon. :(

Not as long as the US is backing certain regimes

That pretty much sums it up.

So if Musharraf is behind this, will the US stand by him nevertheless?
He probably isn't, but yes, of course they will, because he's the only candidate who isn't either a socialist or a Muslim extremist.

She could not have become PM again due to the 2 term upper limit. She tried to get it scrapped but until now it was not scrapped.

Her party, PPP (pak peoples party), is basically out of Sindh - the 2nd major province after Punjab.

While she has the image of being a "moderate", "progressive" etc now, it has to be remembered that it was under her regime that the taliban was formed by Pakistan. Gen Babar, Bhutto's interior minister and JUI-F's Mullah Fazl-ur-Rehman, were the ones who masterminded the taliban. Fazlur Rehman is called the father of taliban and Benazir the mother.

It was under her regime that the Kashmir jihad also became a big problem. After the failed Rajiv Gandhi-Bhutto summit - she was near hysterical and screaming jihad jihad and rallying the "kashmir cause".



To Musharraf - as a potential alternate power center.

To the islamists - who can't have a woman rule a islamic state. Women are supposed to put a beekeeper suit and cook for the men at home.
Thanks for the history lesson and the analysis.

I'm surprised since she's been escaping these attacks since she's come back to Pakistan. Somehow I knew this day would come.

I'm surprised since she's been escaping these attacks since she's come back to Pakistan. Somehow I knew this day would come.sad but true

Wow, seems like Musharraf and his puppeteer in the white house have accomplished their goal.


qft

I assume you have proof that Musharraf and Bush were involved?

I assume you have proof that Musharraf and Bush were involved?
not yet, but that'll come. musharraf is in control of the country and it's no secret that he wanted bhutto out of the way.

It's one of those days when I think the risk of nuclear war is high and America's DEFCON level shoots up to 1.

not yet, but that'll come. musharraf is in control of the country and it's no secret that he wanted bhutto out of the way.

If he wanted her out of the way, why did he offer her a pardon in the first place? Also, if he wanted Bhutto out of the way, it in no way means he had something to do with this.

If he wanted her out of the way, why did he offer her a pardon in the first place? Also, if he wanted Bhutto out of the way, it in no way means he had something to do with this.
there are things that a de-facto dictator can officially do in public and there some things he can do or have done in secrecy.

NSG brings me sad news today :(

there are things that a de-facto dictator can officially do in public and there some things he can do or have done in secrecy.

That didn't answer my questions. If he wanted her out of the way, he could have not pardoned her in the first place. Also, just because I may not like someone (who ends up murdered), it doesn't mean I had anything to do with it.

This seriously sucks. What's going to happen to Pakistan next?

Also, just because I may not like someone (who ends up murdered), it doesn't mean I had anything to do with it.
Exactly.

It's far too early, and reports are still too confused (there's contradictory reports out there about a gun battle just prior to the suicide bombing), to be pointing the finger of blame; especially from the vantage of an internet forum.

Suffice to say that Musharraf won't be shedding any huge amount of tears over Bhutto's death, though it's not as if he was the only person or faction in Pakistan who wanted her gone.

The place is fucked up. Here's hoping Musharraf won't gain even more power after this.

Shit... :(

i know i think we should have a moment of silence for such a brave and noble woman, and to hold a prayer for the people of pakistan and bhuttos family and friends

This attack smirks of American involvement. Where else would a sniper get such close access and manage to pull off 5 shots? They orchestrated the deal to bring her back to power; the deal must have gone sour. And now there is an excuse for Musharaf to continue for a while longer.

i know i think we should have a moment of silence for such a brave and noble woman, and to hold a prayer for the people of pakistan and bhuttos family and friends
Very brave, certainly, but Bhutto and her family are no stranger to corruption charges and very lucrative, and perhaps somewhat dodgy, business deals.

Still, no reason to kill the poor women, of course.

Or the 20 or so other people caught in the blast.

This attack smirks of American involvement. Where else would a sniper get such close access and manage to pull off 5 shots? They orchestrated the deal to bring her back to power; the deal must have gone sour. And now there is an excuse for Musharaf to continue for a while longer.

The articles I've read so far seem to indicate that a suicide bomber with a gun shot her, then blew himself up, killing more. That isn't the work of a sniper (snipers are long range shooters, the one that killed Bhutto had to be close to the crowd).

I assume you have proof that Musharraf and Bush were involved?

There are many complex layers and deceit involved in things like this. Musharraf wants to hold on to power. That much is a given. But we cannot know for sure who ordered this, who planned this, who operationalised this, who were in the know, who were in a position to stop and did not, who wanted this to be done etc etc.

There are many complex layers and deceit involved in things like this. Musharraf wants to hold on to power. That much is a given. But we cannot know for sure who ordered this, who planned this, who operationalised this, who were in the know, who were in a position to stop and did not, who wanted this to be done etc etc.

So what you're saying is, United Beleriand was jumping to unfounded conclusions when he said what he said? I agree.

The articles I've read so far seem to indicate that a suicide bomber with a gun shot her, then blew himself up, killing more. That isn't the work of a sniper (snipers are long range shooters, the one that killed Bhutto had to be close to the crowd).

Following the Indian news channels here, from what they say, following a suicide attack, there was a sniper who managed to get off 5 shots which she was leaving the venue.

Wow the one person pakistan needed is now dead :(

This is indeed a sad sad day in Pakistan and my thoughts and prayers are with her family along with the families of the other victims.

not yet, but that'll come. musharraf is in control of the country and it's no secret that he wanted bhutto out of the way.

Its no secret that dozens of different organisations wanted her dead. Immediately pointing the finger at Musharraf this early on with no further evidence is ridiculous.

Oh well, what can you do about it? Another good person dead, typical.

Another good person dead, typical.Another Civilian Leader is assassinated for a Military Dictator. (by his goons/allies)

This makes it assignation number ~911 (or a much larger number)

Following the Indian news channels here, from what they say, following a suicide attack, there was a sniper who managed to get off 5 shots which she was leaving the venue.

That was an earlier attempt. This one was from close range.

And five shots actually suggests that the U.S. wasn't involved. If I'm remembering this correctly, snipers are trained to take at most two shots before moving.

Another Civilian Leader is assassinated by a for a Military Dictator.

This makes it assignation number ~911 (or a much larger number)

Please prove that Musharuff had something to do with it.

Its no secret that dozens of different organisations wanted her dead. Immediately pointing the finger at Musharraf this early on with no further evidence is ridiculous.I say, the chances its was done for/by Musharraf people are ~90%

Now what?
Chaos, it seems.

Lahore metablogs (http://lahore.metblogs.com/) and other similar sites are reporting violent demonstrations, rioting and potential retaliations against anyone seen as vaguely responsible.

Musharraf needs the madrassas. Those are the breeding ground of his attack dogs. Where will he go for jihadis to use against others if he quashes the madrassas?

The thing is, the Madrassas are getting too independent for his liking. But they've gotten a fair bit too powerful to take down without causing a lot of outcry that he would have problems containing. With Bhutto dead, and the blame on the militants, he can bargain for more of Washington's purse as well as greater leverage on crushing the Madrassas.

Musharraf doesn't want to exterminate the Madrassas, but he wants them firmly back under his thumb. Quashing a number of them is the most common method of doing so.

I say, the chances its was done for/by Musharraf people are ~90%

Please explain the mathematics you used to come to an estimation of 90%.

Please explain the mathematics you used to come to an estimation of 90%.No.
























but since I had such a nice gift on Christmas, I will give you this gift of wisdom:

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/119/275934267_5cbdde429b.jpg
Your Dearest Wish will come true. (UNLESS your dearest wish is to get a mathematical answer from OD ;-)

No.

Is that because you plucked a figure out of the air with no justification?

No.

Then your statemet is bullshit as most of your statements you have made.

Then your statemet is bullshit as most of your statements you have made.Go-cry-me-a-river©.. and Merry Christmas Corny. :D

Go-cry-me-a-river©.. and Merry Christmas Corny. :D

Christmas is over OD. Unless of course you are an orthodox then its coming up. I, however, am not orthodox and so...

I say, the chances its was done for/by Musharraf people are ~90%

Maybe maybe not. There were a lot of people over there who would have wanted her dead.

She was the Voice of Reason. People hate that. *nod*

Christmas is over OD. Unless of course you are an orthodox then its coming up. I, however, am not orthodox and so...No I am not an orthodox, Merry Christmas to you, all the same.

Maybe maybe not.true.
I think we will never know for sure.
That why all we can post is estimates.. (mathematics has nothing to do with it)

http://www.adnkronos.com/AKI/English/Security/?id=1.0.1710322437

Al-Gaeda claims responsibility for the assassination. I'd take this with a grain of salt until this is verified, but if true this could prove interesting in the coming months.

This has been on the cards for quite some time but then you could say the same for Musharref.

And frankly, all these politicians are as bad as each other in using power as some sort of money-making patronage program, it's one against another. To say Bhutto was some sort of political angel is stretching it.

Will it make any difference whatsoever? I doubt it, perhaps a reprisal, perhaps a riot or few but that's hardly any different in itself.

Poor Pakistan.

What are the ramifications of her death? She hasn't been a major factor in Pakistani politics for a long time. Assume she won a seat, what difference would she have made in the area? Was she even a real threat to anyone?

When the opposition leader to a near-dictatorship is generally a big deal and has huge ramifications. I do wonder what will happen in such a place as Pakistan...

And frankly, all these politicians are as bad as each other in using power as some sort of money-making patronage program, it's one against another. To say Bhutto was some sort of political angel is stretching it.
Quite.

Cue the sickening, inaccurate obituaries from media and politicos around the globe.

Poor Pakistan.
They don't have much luck down that part of the world, do they?

So after 15 minutes of :(ness, I am left wondering....
how many of you guys would be rioting right now?


I sure as hell would be. It's time to destroy some radical douchebags!

And frankly, all these politicians are as bad as each other in using power as some sort of money-making patronage program, it's one against another. To say Bhutto was some sort of political angel is stretching it.

QFT. It is like a circle of leaders and one worse than the other. Nawas is no slouch when it comes to money making. The other major party is the MQM which is literally like a mafia in Karachi. During a rally, gun-toting members of MQM openly roamed the streets and picked off PPP cadre. The other political alternative is the sunni islamist MMA which wants to implement sharia and kill heretics like shias and ahmadis. The military is no better wheeling and dealing to make money, keep power and run jihad rackets on neighboring countries and blackmail western countries for sops.

I say, the chances its was done for/by Musharraf people are ~90%

Benefiting from an event doesn't mean you caused it. I pull that off all the time.

I sure as hell would be. It's time to destroy some radical douchebags!
And they would be where, exactly?

Assuming you even know who is responsible.

One of the most important questions linked with Bhutto's death is what will happen to her PPP. She is so inextricably linked with the leadership of her party, that there is no clear powerful successor to her position, and it is entirely believable that one of the chief opposition parties in Pakistan could disintegrate as a result of this.

Assuming you even know who is responsible.-chances are- we will never know for sure.

Maybe maybe not. There were a lot of people over there who would have wanted her dead.

She was the Voice of Reason. People hate that. *nod*

:eek:

That's what someone calls me from time to time!!


*Flees*

I doubt Musharref was involved in this. His popularity was in a downward spiral and Bhutto was highly liked by many. Allying with her would have been a saving grace for him. She is a woman politician operating around extremist fundies who believe that women should be neither seen nor heard.

This kind of reaction is what Taliban and al-Qaeda sympathizers want. They want for people to believe it was the US and Musharref. Sacrificial goat as it were. It's too easy to blame those in charge if you think about it. Besides, why would Musharref have made a deal with her in the first place if he wasn't grasping at straws to hang on to power only to then have her killed?

I say, the chances its was done for/by Musharraf people are ~90%

While Musharraf is likely the single greatest beneficiary of this event, it's not necessarily likely that he's behind it, even if an element of the government, such as the ISI, for example, carried it out. This is because of how fractured and independent the elements of the Pakistani national security apparatus is.

Contrary to what Mark Felt said, following the money rarely leads to who actually is responsible.

In my opinion, this is far more brash than anything that we've ever seen out of Musharraf in the past. Bhutto is too public of a figure for this sort of tactic, and there's other methods that he could use to negate her, that wouldn't leave the sour taste and run the risk of generating the "sympathy vote" for the PPP. More than that, Musharraf stood to gain an awful lot by growing an alliance with her and her party, saving his position and all that.

I doubt Musharref was involved in this. His popularity was in a downward spiral and Bhutto was highly liked by many. Allying with her would have been a saving grace for him. She is a woman politician operating around extremist fundies who believe that women should be neither seen nor heard.

It could be vengenance. He was pretty much fucked when she returned, right? Or he might believe that she is the only thing keeping him away from power. Depending on how he manages this, Musharref could find himself in a good position...

While Musharraf is likely the single greatest beneficiary of this event, it's not necessarily likely that he's behind it, even if an element of the government, such as the ISI, for example, carried it out. meh..


if an element of the Gov is behind it.. thats part of the "Musharraf people".. it goes inside the ~90% estimate

.
following the money rarely leads to who actually is responsible.rarely?

In my opinion, this is far more brash than anything that we've ever seen out of Musharraf in the past. Bhutto is too public of a figure for this sort of tactic, .

Agree with you on the other points, but not the above.

Did not Musharraf's hero, Zia-ul-Haq imprison and hang Zulfikaq Ali Bhutto (Benazir's father) who was a serving PM and was FAR more popular than Bhutto ever was and ever can be.


and there's other methods that he could use to negate her, that wouldn't leave the sour taste and run the risk of generating the "sympathy vote" for the PPP.

Who will get that vote? There is no second rung leader in PPP, or for that matter any Pakistani party, who can step up and occupy that space. Pakistani parties are not internally democratic like you are used to in western countries. This is not just a Pakistani problem...it is endemic to the region, including India, Sri Lanka, Bangladesh etc. Political leaders are leaders of their parties for life and when they die, their family members take over.

More than that, Musharraf stood to gain an awful lot by growing an alliance with her and her party, saving his position and all that

Musharraf does not have to put up with BB with people's mandate.

His ideal situation would be him as prez and Shujaat as PM.

That will likely happen with BB out of picture and Nawaz's candidacy papers not being accepted.

I think even Nawaz will be targetted. His rally was attacked too. But I am not sure if he was there or he was the target.

It could be vengenance. He was pretty much fucked when she returned, right? Or he might believe that she is the only thing keeping him away from power. Depending on how he manages this, Musharref could find himself in a good position...

Or he could have been relying on the chaos she would bring. Either way, her being alive would have been of greater benefit to him than her dead. Think about it, he could have had her killed on a number of occasions. The house arrest she had been under for a while wound up protecting her, didn't it?

meh..


if an element of the Gov is behind it.. thats part of the "Musharraf people".. it goes inside the ~90% estimate


You're not showing much nuance on this one. To say that the civilian government even remotely controls the military or the ISI is a major stretch, they're run more like independent statelets, rather


rarely?

Rarely. The usual beneficiaries are usually uninvolved third parties. The world is not so nearly cause-and-effect as we'd like it to be.

In Spain, for example, the Socialist party benefited greatly from the train bombings, but they definitely weren't the one's responsible for it.

I do not really understand why people think Musharraf "benefits" from this. I think the chaos greatly increases the chance that he will be dead soon.

not good but one of the most predictable of occurrences. had i been a gambling man (or immoral) i would have just raked some cash in. so why the furore, you mean they did not know this would happen? or is it just me......

not good but one of the most predictable of occurrences. had i been a gambling man (or immoral) i would have just raked some cash in. so why the furore, you mean they did not know this would happen? or is it just me......

I had the same reaction. Sadness but not really surprise. I know she wasn't always the cleanest of souls but she's a damn shade better than that in power now.

I doubt Musharref was involved in this. His popularity was in a downward spiral and Bhutto was highly liked by many. Allying with her would have been a saving grace for him. She is a woman politician operating around extremist fundies who believe that women should be neither seen nor heard.

This kind of reaction is what Taliban and al-Qaeda sympathizers want. They want for people to believe it was the US and Musharref. Sacrificial goat as it were. It's too easy to blame those in charge if you think about it. Besides, why would Musharref have made a deal with her in the first place if he wasn't grasping at straws to hang on to power only to then have her killed?

The measure of that will be how long it takes for him to put his uniform back on...

The measure of that will be how long it takes for him to put his uniform back on...

I wonder if his "civilian status" is even particularly sincere. I suspect it's more of a symbolic gesture than anything.

You're not showing much nuance on this one. To say that the civilian government even remotely controls the military or the ISI is a major stretch, they're run more like independent statelets, rather

Rarely. The usual beneficiaries are usually uninvolved third parties. The world is not so nearly cause-and-effect as we'd like it to be.

In Spain, for example, the Socialist party benefited greatly from the train bombings, but they definitely weren't the one's responsible for it.for every 1 example you can post, I can surely find a larger number of examples with cause and effect.

still questions your statement with the word rarely.

I wonder if his "civilian status" is even particularly sincere. I suspect it's more of a symbolic gesture than anything.

Personally I agree with that. It really depends on what powers he gave away and too whom.

As for the recently deceased...no surprise...shame 20 others died...she was not white as white nor was her old man.

Given precedent and the current situation I can't help but think the Army had a hand in this. I do not see this as a AQ attack. Shooting then detonation? Thats amateur.

haven't read most of this forum but she should fully rest in peace.

she was brave and cool.

Given precedent and the current situation I can't help but think the Army had a hand in this. I do not see this as a AQ attack. Shooting then detonation? Thats amateur.

Like you said, it seems amateur. Although, I don't think the Army had anything to do with it, maybe ISI, but in my opinion I'd bet that this had more to do with some independent actors, rather than actual Al-Q.

Like you said, it seems amateur. Although, I don't think the Army had anything to do with it, maybe ISI, but in my opinion I'd bet that this had more to do with some independent actors, rather than actual Al-Q.

Yeah...well....only problem is that she was in a garrison town....thats makes me think (given everything else) at the very least Army connivance...

So this is a tragedy, huh? Lol.

So this is a tragedy, huh? Lol.

Considering the fact that they hit a political rally to get one person and killed bystandards who were attending the rally...yes it was a tragedy and the fact that you are laughing shows that you're a cold....I'll leave it at that.

Considering the fact that they hit a political rally to get one person and killed bystandards who were attending the rally...yes it was a tragedy and the fact that you are laughing shows that you're a cold....I'll leave it at that.bystandards ??

bystandards ??

bystandards who were attending the rally

If you are attempting to quote, quote the whole thing UB.

Considering the fact that they hit a political rally to get one person and killed bystanders who were attending the rally...yes it was a tragedy ....seconded,


Collateral murder is still murder.

If you are attempting to quote, quote the whole thing UB.

Its the spelling...

Bystanders... not bystandards

If you are attempting to quote, quote the whole thing UB.:rolleyes:

Its the spelling...

Bystanders... not bystandards

Sorry for not getting enough sleep.

Sorry for not getting enough sleep.

no need to apologise to me. I know what you meant...

Conspiracy talks aside, Pervy certainly didn't orchestrate the assassination. Not to mention unless he's a Kim Jong-Il Grade Fruitcake this does nothing to benefit him aside from an excuse to reimpose martial law and hit upon the U.S. for more money. Now, his government can be held accountable for the indifference to the need for security measures if what the Bhutto supporters claim about that is true, but I doubt he had an active hand in the attack.

The most likely scenario is that the Musharraf government was wholly indifferent to the security concerns of opposition party members and the jihadis who were always itching to kill Bhutto exploited that non-existent screen to make their move.

Conspiracy talks aside, Pervy certainly didn't orchestrate the assassination. Not to mention unless he's a Kim Jong-Il Grade Fruitcake this does nothing to benefit him aside from an excuse to reimpose martial law and hit upon the U.S. for more money. Now, his government can be held accountable for the indifference to the need for security measures if what the Bhutto supporters claim about that is true, but I doubt he had an active hand in the attack.

The most likely scenario is that the Musharraf government was wholly indifferent to the security concerns of opposition party members and the jihadis who were always itching to kill Bhutto exploited that non-existent screen to make their move.

Double bluff...I do not think this was Jihadis...the fact the hit was so amateur...no....I really do not see that. The explosion was too week...the car/MPV/dinkey little thing was hardly damaged...

Did El Generale have an active hand? moot point basically. it is known that he has rogue ISI elements....I am not sure about his Army ties but I suspect they are pretty tight.

I remember when she was PM the Army were pissed at her....and they did off her old man...

It's going to be so annoying to see this woman beatified and all prettied up in the media as some sort of freedom lover and all round decent person that just wanted the best for her people, and how it'll be ignored that she was a corrupt wench that made extensive use of child slaves. Ah, well... she of course shouldn't have been murdered, but I have a hard time feeling all that affected.

It's going to be so annoying to see this woman beatified and all prettied up in the media as some sort of freedom lover and all round decent person that just wanted the best for her people, and how it'll be ignored that she was a corrupt wench that made extensive use of child slaves. Ah, well... she of course shouldn't have been murdered...seconded.





of course.. Pervy Musharraf is very corrupt too.

It's going to be so annoying to see this woman beatified and all prettied up in the media as some sort of freedom lover and all round decent person that just wanted the best for her people, and how it'll be ignored that she was a corrupt wench that made extensive use of child slaves. Ah, well... she of course shouldn't have been murdered, but I have a hard time feeling all that affected.

seconded.

Thirded.

Thirded.
I think you'll find you've fifthed or sixthed.

If not seventhed or eighthed. :p

I think you'll find you've fifthed or sixthed.

If not seventhed or eighthed. :pWhat? dont you agree with the seven of us? (you should know -by now- that Rubiconic+Fass count for at least 6 opinions)

how dare you?
puts Chumblywumbly on the "bitch-slap on sigth" List :D

of course.. Pervy Musharraf is very corrupt too.

Oh, definitely. He's a not a nice person, either.

I think you'll find you've fifthed or sixthed.

If not seventhed or eighthed. :p

I think you'll find you are incorrect in that thought. I thirded OceanDrive's seconding to Fass's post.

don't see any fifth, sixth, seventh or even an eighth in between our posts...

Don't know what other people have said with regards to agreeing to anything in particular.

/meh & more vodka n a bong

N+1thed, where N is the most recent agreement.

It's going to be so annoying to see this woman beatified and all prettied up in the media as some sort of freedom lover and all round decent person that just wanted the best for her people, and how it'll be ignored that she was a corrupt wench that made extensive use of child slaves. Ah, well... she of course shouldn't have been murdered, but I have a hard time feeling all that affected.

True. The US has a lot to do with her return to Pakistan. You can see the media playing on the "US working to return democracy to the world" theme. Thus, it is concluded that she must be pro-democracy, liberal, moderate, progressive etc.

Here's an FYI - her party "elected" her as leader for life. So much for democracy.

True. The US has a lot to do with her return to Pakistan. You can see the media playing on the "US working to return democracy to the world" theme. Thus, it is concluded that she must be pro-democracy, liberal, moderate, progressive etc.

Here's an FYI - her party "elected" her as leader for life. So much for democracy.

Yeah. I can't help think another Chalabi type clusterfuck but more so....

:eek:

That's what someone calls me from time to time!!


*Flees*

You can't outrun the snipers. :)

Yes, it's a tragedy. Anything that involves murder is a tragedy, and anything that increases social and political instability in a nation that has nuclear weapons, mountains full of terrorists, and an ongoing territory dispute with another nation that has nukes and extremists is a tragedy. :rolleyes:

I'd say it was a nuclear 'accident' waiting to happen...

So this is a tragedy, huh? Lol.

Yes, it's a tragedy. Anything that involves murder is a tragedy, and anything that increases social and political instability in a nation that has nuclear weapons, mountains full of terrorists, and an ongoing territory dispute with another nation that has nukes and extremists is a tragedy. :rolleyes:

I'd say it was a nuclear 'accident' waiting to happen...

I'd agree, and we know from experience, those kinds of "accidents" don't wait long.

Honestly, I despair of humanity sometimes, when I see how dense some people can be. Is it a tragedy? Yes, it's frigging tragedy!

It could be vengenance. He was pretty much fucked when she returned, right? Or he might believe that she is the only thing keeping him away from power. Depending on how he manages this, Musharref could find himself in a good position...

He's the one that brought her back in the first place. If he felt threatened by her presence, he could have just let her stay exiled.

Very very sad that she is dead :(

You can't outrun the snipers. :)But if you move in a large group, the sniper may be less likely to make a move.

This entire tradgedy has been a fiasco, starting with the day Mrs. Bhutto returned. President Mushariff had a thousand and more opportunities to ensure her protection and safety, yet he only applied token measures. The World, as a united voice, should finally come together to decry this brutal action and unite to honour her memory and bring the democracy and peace she so wanted to Pakistan. What should NOT be done, as some people have, is use this tradgedy as political ammunition for personal gain. I hope that all people, regardless of their station in life and their politics, come together for at least this one day to make something good come of this....

He's the one that brought her back in the first place. If he felt threatened by her presence, he could have just let her stay exiled.

Think for a second. If you want someone assassinated, you have them in your own country. Because she was running, you'd know where she was.

Further, it makes people think exactly what you're thinking and throws people off your scent.

I'm not saying Musharaff did this. Just that it's not at all implausible.

Awww, goddammit. :(

It seems hard to find a politician in Pakistan who doesn't have a dark past or dark connections, but I always preferred her to Nawaz Sharif. That guy was way too close to Zia-ul-Haq (root of so many of Pakistan's problems) for my liking.

I suppose now it's Imran Khan for the win, but he's aligned himself with Sharif. Goddammit.

This could potentially destabilize the entire region if we're not careful. It's certainly going to affect the U.S. Presidential elections if nothing else, and that alone is cause for concern. The last thing we need are Republicans trying to use this to stir up anti-Muslim reactions.

This could potentially destabilize the entire region if we're not careful. It's certainly going to affect the U.S. Presidential elections if nothing else, and that alone is cause for concern. The last thing we need are Republicans trying to use this to stir up anti-Muslim reactions.


This is a sad day indeed.


As for the presidential elections I believe there will be a lot more from now until the actual elections that can happen. I think the whole thing is up in the air until we cast our ballots. This tragedy will affect the elections but I am not sure who it benefits if anyone.

This is bad. Very bad. I doubt Musharraf did it - a suicide bombing smacks of jihadists.

I suggest that the US develop a contingency plan to seize control of Pakistan's nukes in the event that Musharraf is killed.

This is bad. Very bad. I doubt Musharraf did it - a suicide bombing smacks of jihadists.

I suggest that the US develop a contingency plan to seize control of Pakistan's nukes in the event that Musharraf is killed.Why the US?

Definitely not Musharraf's doing. Definitely not. He probably lost the most because he needed Bhutto for a power-sharing deal. He's losing friends... fast and Bhutto could've helped him build his credibility again. Musharraf's got the army, and thats about it.

Democracy needs to be put on a hold right now. Musharraf needs to take control of his country, declare martial law. Lockdown the Muslim League and roll out the military in Waziristan. Musharraf's got the power to kick some very serious ass and flex a moderate, forward-thinking Pakistan's muscles.

No elections!

Why the US?

Because if anyone can do it, the US can. The US has the expertise, not to mention we can use Afghanistan as a staging ground. And if Musharraf dies, and Pakistan falls into civil war, this should be done. Nobody here wants Al-Qaeda to get its hands on nuclear weapons.

If someone else can do this, they should get a plan ready. I bet India has a plan already (not only to stop Al-Qaeda from getting them, but in case Pakistan looks like it wants to go on the warpath).

Musharraf's got the power to kick some very serious ass and flex a moderate, forward-thinking Pakistan's muscles.
But you just said he only has the military left. If there is one thing that the military isn't, it's moderate or forward-thinking.

Not to mention that strictly speaking, the head of the military is no longer Musharraf, but a big animal from the ISI - and if there is anyone less moderate and forward-thinking than the military, it's the ISI.

Not surprised this happened. She should have never gone back to begin with.

But you just said he only has the military left. If there is one thing that the military isn't, it's moderate or forward-thinking.

Not to mention that strictly speaking, the head of the military is no longer Musharraf, but a big animal from the ISI - and if there is anyone less moderate and forward-thinking than the military, it's the ISI.

Better than Al-Qaeda and the Muslim League.

Why the US?

Cuz the US took over the #1 enemy spot from India. :cool:

More Pakistanis hate US than India now.

Better than Al-Qaeda and the Muslim League.
Well, AQ isn't going to move either way. The military might be powerful, but these days with Pakistan such an extremist country it can't stop relying on the support of certain shady figures in certain shady madrassas - connections which are the lifeline of the ISI. I'd expect combat against Pushtun tribes who dare to defy the military's very wordly approach to power, but not against Islamist extremism.

As for the Muslim League, we'll see. There are moderate elements to it and more radical ones. Which one ends up winning on any particular day is hard to tell.

Something is missing in the official story.

It is said that a lone gunman shot her and then blew himself up. It is easy to find suicide bombers. It is easy to find marksmen capable of hitting her from that distance twice in all that commotion and be a quick shot too. But it is very very difficult to find both in one person. Suicide bombing and marksmanship are like completely different streams.

Following the official story, the gunman must have used a handgun...nothing else would have slipped by that crowd jostling into each other. It is really far fetched that the bomber could have done this. I think there is a sniper involved.

If it was a military man, that might explain how he was able to be both a good shot, and then blow himself up, right? I mean, even in the US military many infantry are trained in various aspects, such as basic marksmanship, and probably basic explosives, with persons expertising in both. So I do believe its possible for this man to have done both, if he was in the military, and from what I hear, a lot of people are wary that it happened in a military town, claiming that low level officers could have pulled it off.

I am not saying expertise in bombs or explosives. I am talking about the religious fanaticism, the motivation levels, the brainwashing if you will, that takes to make a suicide bomber. It is just very hard for me to conceive a skilled marksman as a suicide bomber.

Something is missing in the official story.

It is said that a lone gunman shot her and then blew himself up. It is easy to find suicide bombers. It is easy to find marksmen capable of hitting her from that distance twice in all that commotion and be a quick shot too. But it is very very difficult to find both in one person. Suicide bombing and marksmanship are like completely different streams.

Following the official story, the gunman must have used a handgun...nothing else would have slipped by that crowd jostling into each other. It is really far fetched that the bomber could have done this. I think there is a sniper involved.


If it was a military man, that might explain how he was able to be both a good shot, and then blow himself up, right? I mean, even in the US military many infantry are trained in various aspects, such as basic marksmanship, and probably basic explosives, with persons expertising in both. So I do believe its possible for this man to have done both, if he was in the military, and from what I hear, a lot of people are wary that it happened in a military town, claiming that low level officers could have pulled it off.

If it was a military man, that might explain how he was able to be both a good shot, and then blow himself up, right? I mean, even in the US military many infantry are trained in various aspects, such as basic marksmanship, and probably basic explosives, with persons expertising in both. So I do believe its possible for this man to have done both, if he was in the military, and from what I hear, a lot of people are wary that it happened in a military town, claiming that low level officers could have pulled it off.

Or perhaps it was a sharpshooter who did the shooting, and someone was paid off to be a suicide bomber--holding a gun, I suppose--and play the part to be blamed upon.

I'm suspicious with the story too, because supposedly the gun was found intact, and given the explosion, I find that extremely unlikely.

Also, how stupid was it that she was sticking out of the sun roof? I mean, she knew that there were many people that wanted to kill her. That was such an ignorant thing to do, giving the murderer a perfect chance to do what he needed to do.

One last thing, I kept hearing on CNN tonight that if the situation gets bad enough, that a top military official might initiate a coup against Musharraf. As much as I want to see that SOB out of office there, I don't want that country to fall into anymore instability, due to the nukes, ya know?

Something is missing in the official story.

It is said that a lone gunman shot her and then blew himself up. It is easy to find suicide bombers. It is easy to find marksmen capable of hitting her from that distance twice in all that commotion and be a quick shot too. But it is very very difficult to find both in one person. Suicide bombing and marksmanship are like completely different streams.

Following the official story, the gunman must have used a handgun...nothing else would have slipped by that crowd jostling into each other. It is really far fetched that the bomber could have done this. I think there is a sniper involved.


The sniper theory popped in my head right away. I thought there could be two or more considering one to the neck and one to the chest. I am sure they were aiming for her head and just shot low. Anyway I wouldn't be to surprised if they do find that snipers shot her.

Also, how stupid was it that she was sticking out of the sun roof? I mean, she knew that there were many people that wanted to kill her. That was such an ignorant thing to do, giving the murderer a perfect chance to do what he needed to do.

Sticking out of the sun roof is a primal thing, you rarely can resist the urge to do that even in the face of danger.

The sniper theory popped in my head right away. I thought there could be two or more considering one to the neck and one to the chest. I am sure they were aiming for her head and just shot low. Anyway I wouldn't be to surprised if they do find that snipers shot her.

There are automatic sniper rifles, aren't there? Maybe just the one shooter shot, missed his specific target and shot again just to make sure she died.

DAMN I wish there was some video of the incident...analyzing it would go a long way towards proving or disproving the official story...which is probably why no video exists.

This is bad. Very bad. I doubt Musharraf did it - a suicide bombing smacks of jihadists.

I suggest that the US develop a contingency plan to seize control of Pakistan's nukes in the event that Musharraf is killed.


I am sure the US does have contingency plans however even the best scenario would be difficult to pull off. We are talking about taking or disabling 50+ independent nukes. Also would a attack on Pakistan's nuke sites risk a launch of some of the nukes. Very dangerous situation with the nukes.

There are automatic sniper rifles, aren't there? Maybe just the one shooter shot, missed his specific target and shot again just to make sure she died.

DAMN I wish there was some video of the incident...analyzing it would go a long way towards proving or disproving the official story...which is probably why no video exists.

I suppose there could have been just one but doesn't it make sense to have more then one?

Sticking out of the sun roof is a primal thing, you rarely can resist the urge to do that even in the face of danger.

For one it showed that she wasn't afraid.

Because if anyone can do it, the US can. The US has the expertise, not to mention we can use Afghanistan as a staging ground. And if Musharraf dies, and Pakistan falls into civil war, this should be done. Nobody here wants Al-Qaeda to get its hands on nuclear weapons.


Not only would the US get involved but India would most likely do something too. It would be real ugly.

The sniper theory popped in my head right away. I thought there could be two or more considering one to the neck and one to the chest. I am sure they were aiming for her head and just shot low. Anyway I wouldn't be to surprised if they do find that snipers shot her.

I don't think we will ever know. The "official story" will remain the official story and there will be a lot of theories floating around. If there were indeed snipers, it is a good chance that they were army or at least ex-army. Pak army does have a sniper program. Even if Musharraf did not order this, he would not like to reveal sniper involvement.

Also, how stupid was it that she was sticking out of the sun roof? I mean, she knew that there were many people that wanted to kill her. That was such an ignorant thing to do, giving the murderer a perfect chance to do what he needed to do.

But, it is how electioneering (if that is even a word) is done in those parts. Leaders typically go on rallies and expose at least their head and wave and talk on mic to people. That is how you gather crowds. Not by TV ads, interviews and televise live debates like you are used to in the west.

If she went into a shell, she would lose the election. She had protection from suicide bombers. The last one did not take her out. Even this one did not cause her death. She knew she was protected from that angle. That is why she ventured out. That is why I am increasingly thinking of this as an army job.

I suppose there could have been just one but doesn't it make sense to have more then one?

Well, that depends on whether they would want to risk the extra possibility of discovery to ensure a more likely kill. Personally, in their situation I would not have risked it, as it would be hard enough to try to pin the shots on someone with a hand gun with the trajectory of the bullets(if her body somehow makes it into Western hands.) If you have two different snipers, both shooting, the bullet wounds will obviously show that and give away the whole thing.

I know it'd be highly unlikely for her body to end up in the hands of Western doctors who could make the analysis, but in my opinion it would not be worth the risk.

Well, that depends on whether they would want to risk the extra possibility of discovery to ensure a more likely kill. Personally, in their situation I would not have risked it, as it would be hard enough to try to pin the shots on someone with a hand gun with the trajectory of the bullets(if her body somehow makes it into Western hands.) If you have two different snipers, both shooting, the bullet wounds will obviously show that and give away the whole thing.

I know it'd be highly unlikely for her body to end up in the hands of Western doctors who could make the analysis, but in my opinion it would not be worth the risk.

Well I can understand what you are saying but the Kennedy assassination was 45 years ago and not everyone can agree what happened there.

I am sure the US does have contingency plans however even the best scenario would be difficult to pull off. We are talking about taking or disabling 50+ independent nukes. Also would a attack on Pakistan's nuke sites risk a launch of some of the nukes. Very dangerous situation with the nukes.Pakistan has over 50 nukes?

For one it showed that she wasn't afraid.

See,... primal,... rawr.

Doing that actually is a calculated risk,... you could die,... but then again to show fear in a very patriarchal society, especially if you're a woman, wouldn't garner as much political popularity.

Pakistan has over 50 nukes?

From the different sources that I have read. However it is just an estimate.

Well I can understand what you are saying but the Kennedy assassination was 45 years ago and not everyone can agree what happened there.

True...but I'm not sure I see the relevance of that.

Zilam: Exactly. We'll probably never know.

I know it'd be highly unlikely for her body to end up in the hands of Western doctors who could make the analysis, but in my opinion it would not be worth the risk.

Especially since her body was carried out of the hospital by her followers. No telling where it will end up :(

Especially since her body was carried out of the hospital by her followers. No telling where it will end up :(

At her ancestral place, IIRC, Larkhana in Sindh.

Especially since her body was carried out of the hospital by her followers. No telling where it will end up :(

Following Islamic burial custom, she would buried within a day.

True...but I'm not sure I see the relevance of that.

Zilam: Exactly. We'll probably never know.

Well in the context of trying to figure out if there was a sniper or snipers. The western experts/doctors can't agree on Kennedy's which would probably be the case here.

Following Islamic burial custom, she would buried within a day.

Yep, unlikely they would wait either.

Well in the context of trying to figure out if there was a sniper or snipers. The western experts/doctors can't agree on Kennedy's which would probably be the case here.
Not really. It's generally agreed that Oswald acted alone and fired from where he did. It's really only conspiracy theorists that give any credence to any other possibility.

This case however distinctly lacks in many of the pieces of information freely available in the Kennedy case, which makes it much mores suspicious.

Think for a second. If you want someone assassinated, you have them in your own country. Because she was running, you'd know where she was.

Further, it makes people think exactly what you're thinking and throws people off your scent.

I'm not saying Musharaff did this. Just that it's not at all implausible.

Why would Musharaff want or need to assassinate her, if she wasn't allowed in the country? She'd been exiled, so she couldn't have done anything to affect him politically. Only after Musharaff pardoned her was she a political threat to him.

I bet India has a plan already ...I am sure everybody has a plan.

But one thing is to have a plan, another is to be crazy enough to actually risk a MAD exchange Pakistan-India.

If I was the Premier of India, I would intermediately sent the Indian ambassador to speak with Bush and make it very clear that any US attempt (surprise attack) on Pakistani Nukes would automatically risk millions of Indian citizens lives. And by default millions of Pakistani too.

I am sure everybody has a plan.

But one thing is to have a plan, another is to be crazy enough to actually risk a MAD exchange Pakistan-India.

If I was the Premier of India, I would intermediately sent the Indian ambassador to speak with Bush and make it very clear that any US attempt (surprise attack) on Pakistani Nukes would automatically risk millions of Indian citizens lives. And by default millions of Pakistani too.

If they were crazy enough to risk the operation it would be most likely a joint venture.

Interesting tidbit.

All PMs from Sindh have been killed in Punjab and eerily enough around the same place.

Liaqat Ali Khan was killed by a lone gunman while he was addressing a rally in a park there. Zulfikar Ali Bhutto was hung nearby there and now Benazir.

Interesting tidbit.

All PMs from Sindh have been killed in Punjab and eerily enough around the same place.

Liaqat Ali Khan was killed by a lone gunman while he was addressing a rally in a park there. Zulfikar Ali Bhutto was hung nearby there and now Benazir.

Out of curiosity Aryavartha are you a Punjabi? I know most of the Indians here in the Seattle area are. Also most of them are Singh's.

Why would Musharaff want or need to assassinate her, if she wasn't allowed in the country? She'd been exiled, so she couldn't have done anything to affect him politically. Only after Musharaff pardoned her was she a political threat to him.


According to NPR today, her exile was self-imposed, after the assassination of her father and brother.
I think it points the finger directly at Musharaff, particularly since she was his main opposition in the forthcoming elections, and since her party is now boycotting the elections.
This means Musharaff will likely run unopposed, or practically.

In an e-mail she ordered to be released in the event of her death, she too points the finger at him as well. This is probably becuase security measures she requested from the Musharaff government went ignored.

Its all too coincedental, and not mere conspiracy theory.

Out of curiosity Aryavartha are you a Punjabi? I know most of the Indians here in the Seattle area are. Also most of them are Singh's.

Nope. I am a Tamil. Yes, I have noticed a lot of Punjabis in the non-IT Indian community in Seattle area. In IT circles, south Indians (Telugus and Tamils) are significant components.

I am sure everybody has a plan.

But one thing is to have a plan, another is to be crazy enough to actually risk a MAD exchange Pakistan-India.

If I was the Premier of India, I would intermediately sent the Indian ambassador to speak with Bush and make it very clear that any US attempt (surprise attack) on Pakistani Nukes would automatically risk millions of Indian citizens lives. And by default millions of Pakistani too.

So what? Allow extremist controlled Pakistan to hand nukes to Al Qaida?

India DOES NOT want an extremist Pakistan, And I'm sure that if Musharref is taken out, and an extremist government is in power, Musharref would have told the US to "Destroy the nuclear weapons and their missiles" for the same reason.

I see no evidence of this happening and can almost guarantee it won't happen, but what are the consequences for regional stability if Iran, or maybe China decide get involved.


(This is pure speculation... like I said: 99.99% chance it won't happen.)

So what? Allow extremist controlled Pakistan to hand nukes to Al Qaida? they can get it -any time- from underpaid Russian military, they probably already have.

Russia lost a lot of real and perceived influence in the World and clearly has given away most political and military influence gained at the WW2.. as a result the Russian soldiers is in very bad shape, money wise and.. their moral has taken a beating too.

Hey just wondering, anybody got some sources for all of this? I've seen some stuff on TV, I'm needing some differing viewpoints on all of this. I'm sure stuff has been brought up, but I'm feeling a bit lazy.

I see no evidence of this happening and can almost guarantee it won't happen, but what are the consequences for regional stability if Iran, or maybe China decide get involved.


(This is pure speculation... like I said: 99.99% chance it won't happen.)

I forsee no major problems that are external of Pakistan. Internally, there's going to be a lot of riots, a boycotted election, and more insanity (a.k.a. Pakistani Politics).

So what? Allow extremist controlled Pakistan to hand nukes to Al Qaida?

India DOES NOT want an extremist Pakistan, And I'm sure that if Musharref is taken out, and an extremist government is in power, Musharref would have told the US to "Destroy the nuclear weapons and their missiles" for the same reason.

The extremists will not be the one's to gain power. There's still plenty of corrupt politicians to grow fat on tax money, bribes, and business deals.

I heard about it this morning, this is not good for Pakistan........

So what? Allow extremist controlled Pakistan to hand nukes to Al Qaida?


this is just a rumor i hear a lot but here goes:
apparently the reason Al Qaeda hasnt used any WMD's yet is because the US gave an ultimatium: you do one WMD and we nuke the middle east

this is just a rumor i hear a lot but here goes:
apparently the reason Al Qaeda hasnt used any WMD's yet is because the US gave an ultimatium: you do one WMD and we nuke the middle east

And they would care why?

this is just a rumor i hear a lot but here goes:
apparently the reason Al Qaeda hasnt used any WMD's yet is because the US gave an ultimatium: you do one WMD and we nuke the middle east

Thats a bit like the one about the secret Kung Fu school, whose training allows them walk through walls and turn invisible.....

this is just a rumor i hear a lot but here goes:
apparently the reason Al Qaeda hasnt used any WMD's yet is because the US gave an ultimatium: you do one WMD and we nuke the middle east

If anything, an ultimatum like that would only give Al'Qaeda an incentive to use a WMD that much sooner. If the U.S. blankets the Middle East in mushroom clouds as a response, they've basically won. The survivors will likely buy into Al'Qaeda's "America wants to murder Muslims" bullshit and all those "The War on Terror is a success because America has not been attacked since 9-11" braggings will go down the shithole fast.

In addition, the U.S. wouldn't actually make such a threat considering that Israel would be in the Middle East as well.

Just great... Just ****ing wonderful.

This is really bad.And avoidable.

Just great... Just ****ing wonderful.

This is really bad.

Not as long as the US is backing certain regimes

That's laughable.

I forsee no major problems that are external of Pakistan. Internally, there's going to be a lot of riots, a boycotted election, and more insanity (a.k.a. Pakistani Politics).yes, this is the most likely scenario.

I was watching BBC News and it come on as the top story. I know terrorists/al Queda/Taliban-they don't know any better, but someone needs to teach them a little lesson. Bhutto would never do anything to hurt anybody or offend anyone. That attack was among the ones that were completly uncalled-for. Rediculous.

I see no evidence of this happening and can almost guarantee it won't happen, but what are the consequences for regional stability if Iran, or maybe China decide get involved.


(This is pure speculation... like I said: 99.99% chance it won't happen.)

Iran has very little influence in Pakistan, limited to pan-shia elements of shia population of Pakistan, although they are neighbours and share a long border.

Chinese influence is limited to Pak army and US has bought them after 9/11.

-------------------

This is something known but is out in print media now.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/12/27/AR2007122701481_pf.html
U.S. Brokered Bhutto's Return to Pakistan
White House Would Back Her as Prime Minister While Musharraf Held Presidency


------------

So she was assured by her backers that the army would not kill her. Did somebody betray that promise or was it "rogue" or was it the official story that 'terrorists' did it?

Dunno if this is over the news, but the Bhutto family is much like the Kennedy family....plagued by mysterious deaths.

Benazir's youngest brother Shahnawaz Bhutto was found mysteriously dead on 1985 while living in exile in a French Riviera apartment. And her only other brother, Murtaza Bhutto, was killed in another mysterious shooting outside his home in Karachi on 1996.

The Pak interior minister is saying no shrapnel or bullet on Bhutto's body. Says something like she hit something in the van and died. :confused:

If anything, an ultimatum like that would only give Al'Qaeda an incentive to use a WMD that much sooner. If the U.S. blankets the Middle East in mushroom clouds as a response, they've basically won.


They, ultimately, want whats best for their land, they don't want it to be completely destroyed, its actually mainly a war against western intervention, so if we were to finish them off by hugely intervening and destroying most of the middle east, they would have failed. Its not a propaganda war, propaganda is useless when there is nothing to defend.

I was watching BBC News and it come on as the top story. I know terrorists/al Queda/Taliban-they don't know any better, but someone needs to teach them a little lesson. Bhutto would never do anything to hurt anybody or offend anyone. That attack was among the ones that were completly uncalled-for. Rediculous.

There is no conclusive proof that the murder was done in the name of Al Qaida. Let us not turn this into a tie-in to TWAT.

I suspect those behind this maybe easier to find, in the halls of power in Islamabad...

There is no conclusive proof that the murder was done in the name of Al Qaida. Let us not turn this into a tie-in to TWAT.
Too late.

But it really is ludicrous; the people who first claimed that ever-present spectre of AQ was the always-trustworthy (!) Pakistani administration.

You know, the military dictatorship?

I was watching BBC News and it come on as the top story. I know terrorists/al Queda/Taliban-they don't know any better, but someone needs to teach them a little lesson. Bhutto would never do anything to hurt anybody or offend anyone. That attack was among the ones that were completly uncalled-for. Rediculous.
And therein lies the problem.

Maybe if she'd have got the army to kick the Taliban's arse instead of letting them grow when she was in power, this whole thing could have been avoided.

But there we go, she's quite dead :(

The Pak interior minister is saying no shrapnel or bullet on Bhutto's body. Says something like she hit something in the van and died. :confused:

That's most odd...





Anyone know of any video of the assassination?

It's all hit the fan now... :(

If anything, an ultimatum like that would only give Al'Qaeda an incentive to use a WMD that much sooner. If the U.S. blankets the Middle East in mushroom clouds as a response, they've basically won. The survivors will likely buy into Al'Qaeda's "America wants to murder Muslims" bullshit and all those "The War on Terror is a success because America has not been attacked since 9-11" braggings will go down the shithole fast.

In addition, the U.S. wouldn't actually make such a threat considering that Israel would be in the Middle East as well.

not including israel, parts of turkey, lebanon and oil fields and Mecca lastly cus it would be a threat to the remaining muslims, lebanon cus of christain population integrated into israel, and turkey cus of constantinople

And they would care why?

holy cities, you know, the islamic goverments themselves know not to push it, so they make a pretense of reining in the AQ lovers

That's most odd...





Anyone know of any video of the assassination?

Yeah they showed more footage on the beeb...

www.bbc.co.uk/news

Click on the ministry video link...

http://edition.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/asiapcf/12/28/bhutto.death/index.html
..Dr. Mussadiq Khan of Rawalpindi General Hospital, who treated Bhutto before she was declared dead, said she had "a big wound" on the side of her head "that usually occurs when something big, with a lot of speed, hits that area."..

Total BS from the Packofliestani interior minister with his "her head hit the lever and she died of that" crap.

http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/world/2007/12/28/vo.bhutto.gun.ptv

Video showing handgun being fired.

What are the ramifications of her death? She hasn't been a major factor in Pakistani politics for a long time. Assume she won a seat, what difference would she have made in the area? Was she even a real threat to anyone?

Obviously someone thought so...

This attack smirks of American involvement. Where else would a sniper get such close access and manage to pull off 5 shots? They orchestrated the deal to bring her back to power; the deal must have gone sour. And now there is an excuse for Musharaf to continue for a while longer.

:confused:

This attack smirks of American involvement. Where else would a sniper get such close access and manage to pull off 5 shots? They orchestrated the deal to bring her back to power; the deal must have gone sour. And now there is an excuse for Musharaf to continue for a while longer.

Yes Bush had Cheney shoot her. I read that on the internet.;)

There are automatic sniper rifles, aren't there?

yup. or semi-auto anywayshttp://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/62/M107_1.jpg/250px-M107_1.jpg

I am sure everybody has a plan.

But one thing is to have a plan, another is to be crazy enough to actually risk a MAD exchange Pakistan-India.

If I was the Premier of India, I would intermediately sent the Indian ambassador to speak with Bush and make it very clear that any US attempt (surprise attack) on Pakistani Nukes would automatically risk millions of Indian citizens lives. And by default millions of Pakistani too.

Well, you can hardly have a nuclear exchange if you steal one side's nukes. Though I agree with you that such an attempt would be risky, and the consequences of failure would be dire. I'm just thinking that the alternative might be worse, so we should be prepared to try and secure Pakistan's nukes if we have to.

You know, I could see Musharraf agreeing to this plan. He's an enemy of the religious extremists. They've tried to kill him multiple times since he switched sides and backed the US after 9/11. He might be willing to let the US take his nukes if he is assassinated or deposed, rather than let them fall into the hands of religious nutjobs.

Yes Bush had Cheney shoot her. I read that on the internet.;)Well, Cheney has a record of shooting people...

You can't outrun the snipers. :)

I shall out-scooter them!

http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/transport005.gif

yup. or semi-auto anywayshttp://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/62/M107_1.jpg/250px-M107_1.jpg

Or rather more common and less excessive than the M82. Oddly enough the Pakistani Army has M82s but not Dragunovs. Of course, had she been hit by an M82 round she wouldn't have had a head left and I'm certain that one can buy a Dragunov rather cheaply in western Pakistan.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/1/11/Svd_1_russian.jpg

As for fully automatic (not directed towards Dyakovo), those aren't called sniper rifles, they're called machine guns.

This could potentially destabilize the entire region if we're not careful. It's certainly going to affect the U.S. Presidential elections if nothing else, and that alone is cause for concern. The last thing we need are Republicans trying to use this to stir up anti-Muslim reactions.
I doubt it'll affect the US election at all - unless the shitstorm gets a lot worse than it is now, mind.

Has India said anything on this?

Has India said anything on this?

The usual "we condemn...deeply shocked..gravely concerned....democratic process must continue" stuff from the govt.

The media, TV and print, is beatifying her though.

Btw, Pak TV showing pic of gunman

http://www.foxnews.com/images/332893/0_64_Bhutto_shooting1.jpg

Looks like some white guy.

yup. or semi-auto anywayshttp://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/62/M107_1.jpg/250px-M107_1.jpg

If she'd been shot with that puppy, depending on the ammunition that was used they'd have trouble identifying the Prime Minister, along with a good chunk of her car.

This is a terrible tragedy, but unless a "smoking gun" turns up it's extremely unlikely that we'll ever reach a good consensus on who was responsible. So many people wanted her dead, and so many people stood to benefit from her death, that pointing your finger in any direction is an exercise in futility.

She may not have been completely "on the level", but nobody deserves to die as she did. We can only hope that the situation in Pakistan stabilizes before a true crisis breaks out that threatens the entire region. Nukes and coups don't taste great together.

Also: http://www.reuters.com/article/latestCrisis/idUSISL331603

Btw, Pak TV showing pic of gunman

http://www.foxnews.com/images/332893/0_64_Bhutto_shooting1.jpg

Looks more like a woman.

No woman can get that far in a crowd of boisterous and pumped up males. And some people look "white" (skin complexion wise) from that (and north India) area courtesy of genes from elsewhere. Google White Moghuls. It was common for the British to marry sub-continentals until racism kicked in later.

No woman can get that far in a crowd of boisterous and pumped up males. And some people look "white" (skin complexion wise) from that (and north India) area courtesy of genes from elsewhere. Google White Moghuls. It was common for the British to marry sub-continentals until racism kicked in later.wtf? the face, clothing, hairdo looks like that of a woman. of course the photo is pretty bad quality, but nevertheless.

wtf? the face, clothing, hairdo looks like that of a woman. of course the photo is pretty bad quality, but nevertheless.

It is real bad quality and cannot be determined really. That shooter may as well be Jesus in that photo. Wait, maybe it was Jesus?!

It is real bad quality and cannot be determined really. That shooter may as well be Jesus in that photo. Wait, maybe it was Jesus?!the picture is not that bad.

it featurea s person with well-combed hair, high cheeks, a fine face with a darker mouth (lipstick?), a slender arm, and clothing that I would characterize a typically for females.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/asiapcf/12/30/pakistan.politics/index.html

In other news it appears Bhutto's son is stepping up into her spot as the head of PPP.

the picture is not that bad.

it featurea s person with well-combed hair, high cheeks, a fine face with a darker mouth (lipstick?), a slender arm, and clothing that I would characterize a typically for females.

You can tell all that from that picture?! I say you go over and help with the investigation then. Clearly you can see things the rest of us can't. ;)

http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/asiapcf/12/30/pakistan.politics/index.html

In other news it appears Bhutto's sone is stepping up into her spot as the head of PPP.

IIRC, he is only 19. He can be leader of the party, but he can't stand in election.

Her husband has a lot of past baggage, plus he is shia to boot.

Regardless of who the PPP manages to put up and get all the votes....Mushy can still rig the elections to get PML(Q) in.

I don't see why this is such a big story. In case anyone has forgotten, she was PM already and failed at it. She even supported the Taliban

I just find it so annoying that Musharraf can say things in public how it's such a tragedy.When all it's done is eliminated a large threat and allowed another possible excuse to delay elections. It sickens me.

I just find it so annoying that Musharraf can say things in public how it's such a tragedy.When all it's done is eliminated a large threat and allowed another possible excuse to delay elections. It sickens me.

What else is he going to say, he's glad she died?

In any case, if Benazir was still around he wouldn't be that hurt. From what I heard they were going to make a sort of coalition, because as of now, Musharraf is not very popular compared to Bhutto.

IIRC, he is only 19. He can be leader of the party, but he can't stand in election.

Her husband has a lot of past baggage, plus he is shia to boot.

Regardless of who the PPP manages to put up and get all the votes....Mushy can still rig the elections to get PML(Q) in.


He looks a bit young. Didn't realize he was that young.

I don't see why this is such a big story. In case anyone has forgotten, she was PM already and failed at it. She even supported the Taliban

Yes she made a bunch of mistakes but it seems many in Pakistan would prefer her to the current situation. Maybe they want her because of her past support for the Taliban?