NationStates Jolt Archive


Yeah, the surge is working and life is better without Saddam...

Sel Appa
27-12-2007, 05:27
I still believe Saddam was much better than Iraq will be for the next 50 years. at least you could move around freely and do what you wanted except criticize Saddam. Is that really a big deal? Iraq was one of the safest and freest countries in the Middle East and now we turned it into a shithole that no matter how the War supporters twist it cannot possibly rationally deny that life is much worse for the average Iraqi. I don't know what the supporters are smoking, but I'd like to sell it...

Link (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071226/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_secret_salons)

BAGHDAD, Iraq - Umm Doha cuts hair and waxes eyebrows in secret from her living room because making women look pretty can get a person killed in her Sunni-dominated Baghdad neighborhood.

Hardline Muslim extremists who believe it is sinful for women to appear beautiful in public have forced many beauticians to move their trade underground.

Sunni and Shiite militants began blowing up salons roughly two years ago. They killed several stylists and bullied others into putting down their scissors and makeup brushes for good, all in an effort to stamp out what they view as the corrupting spread of Western culture.

Besides beauty salons, militants have also targeted liquor stores, barber shops and Christian churches.

In the past year, most beauty salons in the Shiite-dominated southern city of Basra went underground, as they did in the Sunni-controlled neighborhood of Dora in west Baghdad.

To those outside of Iraq, the prospect of being killed just for frequenting a hair salon might seem a convincing reason not to go. But despite being targeted by militants, stylists say women here still want to look good — and stylish. Refusing to get a haircut or having their makeup done would be giving in to the violence and despair surrounding them.

"See this salon?" said the stylist Kifah, as she deftly lopped off a woman's dark hair into smart layers in her east Baghdad establishment. "It's never been empty, not through the Iraq-Iran war, the Gulf war or this war. Women are women, they always want to look good."

Despite her bravado, Kifah, like all the hairdressers interviewed, asked that her full name not be used because she feared retaliation by extremists.

The latest attack on a salon was Dec. 13, in the city of Mosul northwest of the capital. Gunmen stormed the home of a woman who was running a beauty parlor out of one room. They killed her.

Last year, extremists blew up 42-year-old Umm Doha's beauty parlor in west Baghdad after she did not heed their warnings to close shop.

"They didn't want a ladies salon there," she said. Two other salons were also blown up.

Umm Doha said hardline Muslims were offended by the sight of freshly made-up women leaving her salon, including brides heading to their weddings — even though they were conservatively veiled while outside.

Days after her small shop was destroyed, she converted a room in her home into an underground salon. She said she had no choice: Her husband's low-paying clerk's job does not pay enough to keep food on the table for their three children.

It isn't known how many secret salons exist in Iraq, but many women bullied out of their shops work on customers at home. Such an arrangement cuts into profits because the beauticians will deal only with women they already know.

Umm Doha said she has recently been earning only about $200 a month. The brides are the real salon money-spinners: They must be fully waxed, eyebrows shaped, have a fancy hairstyle and a makeover — all for about $65. Umm Doha now sees just two or three brides a month instead of every week.

While danger is rife for beauticians, those plying their trade in areas that have been secured by Iraqi and U.S. troops, or controlled by Sunni tribal groups opposed to al-Qaida in Iraq, seem to have more latitude to work.

A few roads down from Umm Nour's place, the hairdresser Shams runs a salon in an area protected by a checkpoint separating her part of the neighborhood from the extremists who have forced her colleague into hiding. "I've been here for four years and I've never been threatened," Shams said.

Across town in a Shiite neighborhood in east Baghdad, Kifah's salon sits wedged between a mechanic's shop and a shuttered store.

Inside, a cluster of women wait, wet hair wrapped in towels. One woman leans back on a chair as a beautician applies a white paste to her face. Another sits with a plastic cap on her hair, strands pulled out to be lightened. A table next to the window holds the ubiquitous pot of sweet Iraqi tea.

Many of the customers in Kifah's shop said they were war-weary refugees from Sunni western Baghdad, from Shiite families, or Shiites married into Sunni families who fled into more secure eastern Baghdad.

One of those women lay back in Kifah's chair. She asked not to be named, fearing identification by the extremists her family had fled.

But the woman said the strife made her want to look her best. She said she could not stop the war, but she could boost her morale by looking good.

Iraq's violence, she said, was like a person suffering from a high fever. "The fever will break and Iraq will return to normal. But until then, we want to be stylish and look good," she said.

"Here, we give women hope," Kifah said. "They feel like women, even during the worst tragedy."

Kifah's own niece and nephew have disappeared. Another niece was kidnapped and later found dead, even after Kifah's family paid a ransom, she said.

Still, her salon must stay open.

"If we give some hope here, it helps us carry on," she said, dusting off the salon chair to prepare for her next customer.
Imperio Mexicano
27-12-2007, 05:32
Iraq under Saddam was like heaven on Earth compared to Iraq today.

And note that saying Iraq was one of the freest countries in the Middle East is really not saying much.
Marrakech II
27-12-2007, 05:34
Saddam just kept the lid on a boiling kettle. One day he would have died and the shit storm would have happened anyway. My younger brother is over there and he says it is not as bad as what is shown on tv. He mentions Baghdad as being a problem at times but for the most part the countryside is quiet.
Imperio Mexicano
27-12-2007, 05:35
Saddam just kept the lid on a boiling kettle. One day he would have died and the shit storm would have happened anyway.

Probably, but it wouldn't have been as bad, nor would it have had the same repercussions for America and the world.

My younger brother is over there and he says it is not as bad as what is shown on tv. He mentions Baghdad as being a problem at times but for the most part the countryside is quiet.

I hope he makes it back safely. He has a lot of guts.
The Black Forrest
27-12-2007, 05:38
Saddam just kept the lid on a boiling kettle. One day he would have died and the shit storm would have happened anyway.

Arguable. The next in line was the son that ran the secret police. It was said he was just as ruthless as dear ol' daddy.

My younger brother is over there and he says it is not as bad as what is shown on tv. He mentions Baghdad as being a problem at times but for the most part the countryside is quiet.

Considering the Sunni view Al-Q as the problem at the moment helps the security. If they settle their differences, the peace will change.

What does he do over there?
Sel Appa
27-12-2007, 05:39
Saddam just kept the lid on a boiling kettle. One day he would have died and the shit storm would have happened anyway. My younger brother is over there and he says it is not as bad as what is shown on tv. He mentions Baghdad as being a problem at times but for the most part the countryside is quiet.

Point of view. A soldier could easily say a skirmish is nothing even if it results in 50 deaths.
Marrakech II
27-12-2007, 05:48
Point of view. A soldier could easily say a skirmish is nothing even if it results in 50 deaths.

I was a soldier too and can say 50 combat deaths is a good sized engagement.

As for what my lil bro has said he means that there is nothing going on in many places he has been in the countryside. Most of what you see on tv is in Baghdad itself.
Marrakech II
27-12-2007, 05:49
What does he do over there?

Doctor, he takes care of soldiers, civilians or the enemy if they make it to him.
Sel Appa
27-12-2007, 05:54
I was a soldier too and can say 50 soldier deaths is a good sized engagement.

As for what my lil bro has said he means that there is nothing going on in many places he has been in the countryside. Most of what you see on tv is in Baghdad itself.

So? Life has still worsened across the board. Primarily in the cities, but the rural areas also probably receive their share.
Marrakech II
27-12-2007, 06:01
So? Life has still worsened across the board. Primarily in the cities, but the rural areas also probably receive their share.

I would say by his accounts and others that I have talked to say that overall the violence is down. He just went back for tour 3. He has been over their for nearly 2 years already spread over a 3 year span. So I believe he has a good read on what is going on. He is also flown to different areas to assist. He is finding himself in Baghdad and Kirkuk for the most part. So the two cities are still a problem. As you know it is harder to defend cities so that makes sense. As for life worsening I don't think so. Just the fact that the media is free and people are free to pursue what they want is a much better improvement on Saddam's rule.
The Black Forrest
27-12-2007, 06:15
Doctor, he takes care of soldiers, civilians or the enemy if they make it to him.

Very honorable! :)

I have seen a couple documentaries on battlefield docs. Was he in any of them?
Sel Appa
27-12-2007, 06:24
I would say by his accounts and others that I have talked to say that overall the violence is down. He just went back for tour 3. He has been over their for nearly 2 years already spread over a 3 year span. So I believe he has a good read on what is going on. He is also flown to different areas to assist. He is finding himself in Baghdad and Kirkuk for the most part. So the two cities are still a problem. As you know it is harder to defend cities so that makes sense. As for life worsening I don't think so. Just the fact that the media is free and people are free to pursue what they want is a much better improvement on Saddam's rule.

What's freedom of speech if you get shot in the street for using it? Freedom to pursue was much more available before Saddam. Iraq is now a de facto theocracy in many parts.
Greater Somalia
27-12-2007, 06:25
This is how one American soldier put it awhile ago "Sunnis vs Shias, Shias vs Shias, Sunnis vs Sunnis, and all of them vs Americans". What he said was, Somewhere in Baghdad, their unit were called to check out a fight that was going on between Sunnis and Shias. As soon as the American units came to the site, both groups stopped shooting at each other and started targeting the Americans. After 5 years of the Iraqi war, after Saddam's hanging, now I hear some notion that what's best suited for Iraq is a "strong man", someone with Saddam's attributes.
(http://nl.youtube.com/watch?v=40bNu--0SOA)
Imperio Mexicano
27-12-2007, 06:27
As for life worsening I don't think so. Just the fact that the media is free and people are free to pursue what they want is a much better improvement on Saddam's rule.

The media is not free. (http://www.freedomhouse.org/template.cfm?page=251&year=2006)

The people are not free. (http://www.freedomhouse.org/template.cfm?page=22&year=2007&country=7197)
Sel Appa
27-12-2007, 07:01
This is how one American soldier put it awhile ago "Sunnis vs Shias, Shias vs Shias, Sunnis vs Sunnis, and all of them vs Americans". What he said was, Somewhere in Baghdad, their unit were called to check out a fight that was going on between Sunnis and Shias. As soon as the American units came to the site, both groups stopped shooting at each other and started targeting the Americans. After 5 years of the Iraqi war, after Saddam's hanging, now I hear some notion that what's best suited for Iraq is a "strong man", someone with Saddam's attributes.
(http://nl.youtube.com/watch?v=40bNu--0SOA)

al-Sadr looks like the best candidate...
Cabra West
27-12-2007, 11:06
I would say by his accounts and others that I have talked to say that overall the violence is down.

Down compared to when? The height of the war, or Saddam's rule?
Eureka Australis
27-12-2007, 12:58
At least Saddam kept a lid on the religious sectarian strife, the only examples of countries where the parties of God got their way are Afghanistan and Somalia, and it wasn't pretty.
Non Aligned States
27-12-2007, 13:51
At least Saddam kept a lid on the religious sectarian strife, the only examples of countries where the parties of God got their way are Afghanistan and Somalia, and it wasn't pretty.

Vatican City, Saudi Arabia, pre-China Tibet, Iran, Israel (some aspects, not full).
Neo Bretonnia
27-12-2007, 14:16
I still believe Saddam was much better than Iraq will be for the next 50 years. at least you could move around freely and do what you wanted except criticize Saddam. Is that really a big deal? Iraq was one of the safest and freest countries in the Middle East and now we turned it into a shithole that no matter how the War supporters twist it cannot possibly rationally deny that life is much worse for the average Iraqi. I don't know what the supporters are smoking, but I'd like to sell it...

Link (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071226/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_secret_salons)

I wonder what the Kurds would say about a remark like that.
Cabra West
27-12-2007, 14:19
I wonder what the Kurds would say about a remark like that.

As I understand it, not much has changed for them in that respect either.
Neo Bretonnia
27-12-2007, 14:33
As I understand it, not much has changed for them in that respect either.

I wouldn't say that. At least they're not being gassed anymore. They're at odds with the other factions but the balance of power is now such that they can defend themselves. With Saddam in charge, he had the whole Iraqi army to bully them with.
Cabra West
27-12-2007, 14:37
I wouldn't say that. At least they're not being gassed anymore. They're at odds with the other factions but the balance of power is now such that they can defend themselves. With Saddam in charge, he had the whole Iraqi army to bully them with.

I recently saw a documentary about the situation in the Kurdish area... apparently, it's among the areas with the most suicide attacks. In total, those attacks have caused more deaths than Saddam's gas attacks did years back. And nobody in Iraq is currently in any position to defend themselves against fundamentalists and suicide bombers.
Neo Bretonnia
27-12-2007, 14:56
I recently saw a documentary about the situation in the Kurdish area... apparently, it's among the areas with the most suicide attacks. In total, those attacks have caused more deaths than Saddam's gas attacks did years back. And nobody in Iraq is currently in any position to defend themselves against fundamentalists and suicide bombers.

I'd be interested in seeing that, because it's hard to imagine suicide bombing being at such a high level as to compete with the effects of what is essentially a WMD.
Cabra West
27-12-2007, 15:11
I'd be interested in seeing that, because it's hard to imagine suicide bombing being at such a high level as to compete with the effects of what is essentially a WMD.

Keep in mind, the suicide bombongs have been going on for years now, and the number of victims is rising day by day. Saddam's attack was just one attack. With a massive number of victims, granted, but not as massive as the number of victims claimed by the attacks since the invasion.
G3N13
27-12-2007, 15:19
I wonder what the Kurds would say about a remark like that.

I wonder what the kurds (http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/world/2007-12/26/content_6349573.htm) are saying right now?
Yootopia
27-12-2007, 15:48
I still believe Saddam was much better than Iraq will be for the next 50 years. at least you could move around freely and do what you wanted except criticize Saddam. Is that really a big deal? Iraq was one of the safest and freest countries in the Middle East and now we turned it into a shithole that no matter how the War supporters twist it cannot possibly rationally deny that life is much worse for the average Iraqi. I don't know what the supporters are smoking, but I'd like to sell it...
I don't really support the war at all, and realise that things are worse, but the Surge is, essentially, the US Army going by the methods of Saddam. And it's also nothing to do with that article.
Rogue Protoss
27-12-2007, 17:10
I hope he makes it back safely. He has a lot of guts.

Doctor, he takes care of soldiers, civilians or the enemy if they make it to him.

your brother is one brave man, and tough if hes a doctor, taking care of the wounded
Gravlen
27-12-2007, 17:30
I recently saw a documentary about the situation in the Kurdish area... apparently, it's among the areas with the most suicide attacks. In total, those attacks have caused more deaths than Saddam's gas attacks did years back. And nobody in Iraq is currently in any position to defend themselves against fundamentalists and suicide bombers.

Hmm... I think that the documentary is wrong or mistaken. The kurdish area is the safest in Iraq - that is, Sulaymaniyah, Erbil and Dahuk (the northern provinses ruled by the KRG) sees little or no violence at all. (For now ignoring the turkish attacks, as they don't target the general civilian population or groups besides the ones that tend to launch attacks against Turkey.) The Kurdistan Regional Government (KRG) is in control and provides safety for the population in these areas.

The contested "rim"-areas a bit further south is a different matter, but mostly just in the cities Mosul and Kirkuk - these two cities are also not facing similar situations, however. To illustrate, during the weeks 43-50 in 2006, there were 148 cases of assassinations and bombings in Mosul (and the surrounding areas) compared to 30 in Kirkuk (and the surrounding areas) according to the PDMIN Iraq Humanitarian Assistance Reports for these weeks. On the other hand, the countryside outside of these cities are relatively safe.

All in all, the northernmost Kurdish areas are the winners in all of this. That may change, but for the moment it's true.
Corneliu 2
27-12-2007, 17:39
al-Sadr looks like the best candidate...

al-Sadr is not even in Iraq unless he came back.
Vittos the City Sacker
27-12-2007, 17:53
A couple weeks ago, a commentator on Iraq (actually I believe it was an author who was being interviewed) stated that the surge has succeeded in lessening the violence, but that it has been ultimately futile because the point of the surge was to facilitate government progress, which has not happened despite the relative peace.
Gravlen
27-12-2007, 17:57
al-Sadr is not even in Iraq unless he came back.

He's been back since May (http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/world/2007-05/26/content_880760.htm)... Didn't you get the memo? :p
Corneliu 2
27-12-2007, 18:01
He's been back since May (http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/world/2007-05/26/content_880760.htm)... Didn't you get the memo? :p

Meh...As long as he does not stir up trouble, I do not care. He's been quiet for once.
Gravlen
27-12-2007, 18:05
Meh...As long as he does not stir up trouble, I do not care. He's been quiet for once.

You're kidding... right?

He might be rebuilding his army during his ordered lull. He might be stirring up trouble behind the scenes. His influence is not dwindling away. He may be even more powerful than before.
Free Socialist Allies
27-12-2007, 18:07
Iraq under Saddam was like heaven on Earth compared to Iraq today.

And note that saying Iraq was one of the freest countries in the Middle East is really not saying much.

That, and the "freedom" just allows more crimes against humanity goes on. Just like corporations in the US become more powerful with more "freedom", so do the Iraqi extremists.
Corneliu 2
27-12-2007, 18:08
You're kidding... right?

Quiet to the point that he's not causing as much trouble has he has in the past. :D
Gravlen
27-12-2007, 18:11
Quiet to the point that he's not causing as much trouble has he has in the past. :D

Well, it'll be interesting to see what kind of "trouble" he will cause once the surge ends, as I bet he's waiting for...
Corneliu 2
27-12-2007, 18:14
Well, it'll be interesting to see what kind of "trouble" he will cause once the surge ends, as I bet he's waiting for...

That I agree with :D